Mini Normal 2044: Game over!

[Irrelephant11]

wow I forgot this game exists
anyone caught scum yet or

[Irrelephant11]

The overemphasization was unintentional. I guess I do that sometimes when I'm trying to engage more since I think I tend to be on the quieter side most games. So I guess it's just the result of me trying to change my playstyle up a bit.

Thanks for the input though. I'll try to be a little more clear and to-the-point from now on.

I am going to be honest I was a little excited because I thought caught scum early on but now I'm not as sure.

lol hadn't seen this yet

[Irrelephant11]

garmr/skitter definitely town
clemency/bji/sashaddin prob town
VOTE: raya

[Irrelephant11]

I disagree
how about talking to me?

[Irrelephant11]

The text box I typed into was on the first page (you know they have those on every page, right?) and then it brought me to my post on the last page, where garmr's post sat
then I read the game

I had the same thoughts as Garmr re:Raya involving herself in the early argument (mindmeld this early is reason enough to lightly townread garmr). raya's early play seemed like an easy way to get townread, by playing peacemaker, and I think her explanation since then has been overly long because she's making it up as she goes
that's my whole read on both of them
not sure why providing reads on almost the entire playerlist counts as "so lazy it deserves a lynch either way" (when there's, say, flubber who just *isn't playing* atm), so that's not a good look from you

[Irrelephant11]

I also think raya's read that you came out of the argument looking townier than clemency isn't the way town would naturally read the argument, because I think clemency's emotionality comes from town more than scum for sure. Therefore the idea that clemency's posts "could be scum frustration" isn't a towny way of thinking - any towny moment "could be scum", but that "well it could come from both alignments" when it's more likely to come from one alignment is not helpful when forming reads (whereas it

is

helpful when keeping mislynch options open).

[Irrelephant11]

- You posted some fluff whose purpose I cannot fathom except to posture as not really caring about the game

idk when this game started but my first post was to explain why I hadn't yet posted (I literally forgot this game existed)

which I guess you saw as a funny coincidence?

yes

Then you post a fairly safe read list that just kind of echoes common sentiment

Talk to me more about this
I don't really remember reads on skitter, garmr, or sashaddin? Can you provide examples of whose reads you think I was copying?

[Irrelephant11]

idk when this game started

two days ago, so yeah I feel like my entrance was reasonable. Don't you?

[Irrelephant11]

eh
those are fine responses
though I definitely don't think you can handwave my reads as "safe consensus reads" when I was the first to give a read for 3/5 of them? Like?? And landing on hard townreads means it's something you can hold me accountable to. Scumread the next person to townread skitter or garmr, not me. Kinda reads like you TMIing their alignments ("townreading town is too easy", is kind of how it's coming across), because the other option is you somehow magically know what everyone else's reads will be when they return to the thread and can tell that my reads match that future consensus. Wish I had that kind of foresight.

Also I didn't ask if my first post is "how you'd play it", I asked if it's reasonable. Is it reasonable?

[Irrelephant11]

so I guess on second thought those aren't fine responses, lol

[Irrelephant11]

I actually have a secret read on those two

Spoiler: secret

they're the scumteam

[Irrelephant11]

My point there was that it's too early to scumread me for "consensus reads", since I was the first to state most of them
If you want to scumread someone for "consensus reads", scumread the next person to townread skitter or garmr, not me

[Irrelephant11]

I agree it's a weird thing to push on, and accept you labeling it as such. It just feels like you want to include my first post as a reason to scumread me, which I think is plainly ridiculous. I just gave you the town purpose (sidenote: it would also be the scum purpose) for my post - that I wanted to explain why I wasn't itt for the first 2 days of the game. If my explanation for the post is reasonable, why assume any other description for the reasoning behind my post is more true than what I've said?

If you are changing your point from "your reads are consensus reads" to "your reads are safe reads", then yes, your new point is valid-ish (though it's contradicted by you being surprised by my raya vote). Your statement that my reads were "consensus" is not valid, though, and I'm frustrated by your insistence that it is. I'm getting too annoyed by you at this point to determine if my scumread on you makes sense anymore, so I'm gonna wait for outside commentary before discussing this with you further.

pedit: ?? "scum or worthless town" is how you describe a nullread?
You voted me after saying "either scum or worthless", and I'm supposed to assume you're nullreading me?

Glad you're comfy, ttyl

[Irrelephant11]

If your points are reachy, then his point [that you are reachy] is not reachy, correct? Don't love how anyone who interacts with you is clearly supposed to come out looking scummier than you.
Also it should be obvious that "either scum or incompetent town, let's lynch" comes across as a scum read, because I'm not going to assume you think I'm incompetent/worthless town???

I don't know how to read you, but you sure are riling up townies (we can't all be scum), which I'm not loving personally. Which is to say, I'm back to thinking you might be town, but I don't personally like interacting with you at all so far. Seems like you only want to approach this game from a "I don't make mistakes, and scum will out themselves by interacting with me" which is honestly *not* an ideal playstyles imo but probably doesn't deserve a scumread on its own

[Irrelephant11]

Clemency was also riled up / almost replaced out.

But I'm getting closer to actually townreading you, I think I like a lot of this last post. I'm starting to believe that you believe the things you're saying, and that your pressure on me is just pressure, lacking scum agenda
How do you feel about Garmr piggy-backing on my frustration with you? If I'm town, how do you read him?

[Irrelephant11]

why am i town? why do you think sashaddin is prob town?
why do you think clemency v bji is tvt?

I think you're town because I liked your mini-interrogation of bji in your first long post, as well as agreeing with early gut-town pings of clemency

also I probably would have written

i feel like you're looking for an inconsistency to push him for here
i don't know why anything you highlighted is indicative of 'scum playing a chatty opener'
and if he thinks leading is his worst townie trait it makes sense to me that he'd complain about being in that position

if you hadn't written it by the time I entered the thread

Basically light mindmelding which was an accurate reason to read you in coalition so I'm trying to give it some weight this time too

I think sashaddin is prob town because they townread clemency more than bji out of their argument, which I did as well. Could have an agenda, but fmpov it's the natural town reaction to the argument. Not sure I love anything other than 99 in retrospect, though

I think bji v clemency is tvt because I think clemency's reaction is pretty towny (don't think scum share that they considered repping out because of pressure) and the first person to make the game more serious is >rand town
I waffle on bji as you can see though because I don't love their tone (overly aggressive, says it's to make scum uncomfortable but definitely has an agenda-y feel, but otoh "making scum uncomfortable" might be the whole agenda), but I think I'll get over that soon and see the slot more clearly

[Irrelephant11]

you should joke around this game got toooo serious

[Irrelephant11]

sashaddin what do you think of reaper

[Irrelephant11]

@bji did you know it was L-1?
@clemency want to vote raya with me? Personally I think L-1'ing Bji does not match the strength of the case raya is making/reads sorta agenda-y. Agree y/n?

[Irrelephant11]

ebwop

@

raya

did you know it was L-1?
@clemency want to vote raya with me? Personally I think L-1'ing Bji does not match the strength of the case raya is making/reads sorta agenda-y. Agree y/n?

[Irrelephant11]

I'll keep my thought on irrelphant to myself .

?

[Irrelephant11]

I'll keep my thought on irrelphant to myself .

?

???

I'll admit this made me laugh, but why keep your thoughts about me to yourself?

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: skitter

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: skitter

???

I got bored

VOTE: reaper
this one's serious

[Irrelephant11]

The gamestate felt dead, and I knew that voting someone I'd said was "definitely town" was likely to get some reactions going
Sashaddin ignored it, which is sorta odd but not that AI, and your response is probably the same as you'd make regardless of alignment, so I decided holding onto the vote on you wasn't doing anything (and you questioning it would probably reduce the strength of any reactions anyone else would have)
So now I'm voting someone else I think might be scum, because while I still suspect raya I don't think the staleness of the gamestate is good for town and I believe in this town's ability to return to wagoning raya soon if reaper gets townier and raya does not

[Irrelephant11]

Argument reads not-TvS

[Irrelephant11]

You’re both too angry
Either planned theater or genuine on both ends

[Irrelephant11]

Reaper who is town

[Irrelephant11]

Tex who’s scum

[Irrelephant11]

Intense v/la, will game solve tomorrow

[Irrelephant11]

ReaperOfSouls: 1 (Irrelephant11, Skitter30)

this is two votes?

why is no one playing
anyone not voting reaper, come vote reaper

[Irrelephant11]

anyone not voting reaper, come vote reaper

Let's get some discussion going. Why Reaper? Why not Tex or Creature?

because reaper didn't play the game until people starting wagoning lynchbait

[Irrelephant11]

I don't feel like we are likely to lynch town this game day
Bji I don't understand voting creature over reaper rn
I think creature has basically played nai, and raya was hard to read, too
I think reaper has been active lurking and actively scummy

I see your case on someone who has maybe overplayed in a scummy way and raise you a slot that *isn't playing*

[Irrelephant11]

most of my towngames never leave my scumrange, imo (I have a very high view of my scum game).

why don't you townread creature?

[Irrelephant11]

I remember finding Clem and bji towny earlier

I can't really put my finger on why but I think maybe Creature makes this post as town more often than as scum

[Irrelephant11]

creature if scum is in {bji, reaper, the lurkslot} which do you pick and why

[Irrelephant11]

Flubbernugget

TexdoesHalo*
* denotes a prod

[Irrelephant11]

congratulations reaper!

the AtE is working, I'll VOTE: creature and see how that goes

[Irrelephant11]

You can if you want. Your vote would be L-1

[Irrelephant11]

Okay great this is town creature
VOTE: bji

[Irrelephant11]

yeah this game is way too quiet
Garmr who's never scum here? Maybe we just PoE the lynch

[Irrelephant11]

yeah this game is way too quiet
Garmr who's never scum here? Maybe we just PoE the lynch

Sorry, someone please remind me what AtE and PoE mean?

Creature comes in and basically just writes that no one knows what they are doing, with very little evidence except a few quotes cherry picked from here or there, and people start unvoting?

I sense that some players are just waiting to sheep Creature because he's Creature? Like I've never played with this person before or even heard of him, there's no way I'm doing that personally. Even if I did know him, I still wouldn't do it. That's just stupid because whatever town feel you think you are reading from his play could easily be faked.

Appeal to Emotion
Process of Elimination

I have played with town Creature a few times, and while this isn't stellar play from him so far, it's definitely enough for me to not want to lynch him right now
Also if you aren't familiar with his play how do you know that the town feel I get from his posts could be easily faked

[Irrelephant11]

I will withhold my Creature thoughts for a bit

I'm voting Bji for a reason

[Irrelephant11]

yeah tbh no one here is outside scum meta that I'm aware of

My vote on Bji was to see if Creature would take the opportunity to vote the player voting him while there was another vote already there (makes the omgus less scummy, usually)
Didn't do much, though. Most of my reaction tests don't - how does anyone do those well? This game needs shaking up. Maybe I should seriously scumcase someone. reaper could still be scum tbh

[Irrelephant11]

creature why is sashaddin obvtown? The more they post the less I feel they're town

[Irrelephant11]

creature why is sashaddin obvtown? The more they post the less I feel they're town

Sashaddin is the only player I absolutely will not lynch today.

Please towncase the slot, quotes and all
I even would prefer a wall from you in this case

[Irrelephant11]

henlo
this game seems a mess
Someone who isn't bji, sell me on the creature lynch
curious about persivul and clemency votes, but I'll bet $5 neither wagon has strong reasons (none of them do, I bet)
Are we all just voting PoE?

[Irrelephant11]

I'll catch up and see what I get

[Irrelephant11]

505 (In response to Garmr about my reads changing quickly): I wanted to see if Bji would take the opportunity to cast shade on you (someone he's shown willingness to dislike/scumread) when he'd be able to pass off responsibility for the read to me. iirc he didn't, which makes me feel marginally better about the slot.

I think reaper has been active lurking

Did you check his activity in other threads?

No but "hey I'm here, reading, too busy to respond" is active lurking regardless

I've read the full thread, but haven't done ISOs yet except for clem. At this point:

{garmr, irrelephant (neat name BTW)}
{bji, skitter, sashadin}
{reaper}
{clemency, creature*}

* - I'm biased against creature from past experience and I hate his playstyle, so take that FWIW.

VOTE: Clemency

Read his ISO. He has the highest post count in the game, but practically no original thought. Frequently when a person gets heat on them early in D1 and gets out of it, people have a difficult time getting back to examining that person. Seems to be the case here. Yes, his frustration felt genuine, but both town and scum can get frustrated in that situation, so that's NAI.

Thanks! I like my name too
Not sure how to came to townread me so strongly, though. Could you go into that?
As an aside I buy that Persivul might scumread Clemency for playstyle if he has scumread Creature for playstyle in the past
@Persivul if I told you I had a N0 inno on Clem and/or Creature would you vote Reaper?

i'm very open about the fact that i'm way too spammy and produce no real content, while it's not intentional i try to be transparent about it
i'm open to any pushes towards me though, i'd love to hear out your points and refute them as i see fit
i'm ready to actually play now thanks

yeah this is still town

sometimes the answer really is as simple as: it's just the lurkers

-etc-

This is a fair post and okay reason to vote Persivul but I don't think you're going to get very far by lightly pushing him here and saying it's all about activity
i.e. Move your vote, get louder, or case Persivul, take your pick

Spoiler: some Creature posts

rn I have you and Persivul as town and bji as scum

Oh, Clemency still town

I gotta reconsider Garmr, his play seems to buddy on me.

Hmm, why is Sashaddin town again?

I like all of these reads for the time they were posted
Can you go into your townread on skitter? She gathers townreads quite easily as both alignments

ok

[Garmr]

can maybe be town?

i'm feeling better about persivul compared to the previous inhabitants of his slot but not enough to remove the overall scummy feeling from the slot

i think garmr is pretty townie
i'm conflicted on bji; not entirely sure how to read him

i have sash as a townlean but like not super strongly or anything

I buy these reads
This sort of throwaway townread on Sashaddin sounds like the kind of throwaway townread I've seen you accidentally give scum, I think you should want Sashaddin to work for it more before you give the townread tbh

The scumteam is bji and Sashaddin with bji going "I'm pretty sure Sashaddin is town and I have quotes"?

I lol'd at this
And also agreed at this point in my catchup, though I am not so sure about bji atm

more coming...

[Irrelephant11]

creature why is sashaddin obvtown? The more they post the less I feel they're town

Sashaddin is the only player I absolutely will not lynch today.

Please towncase the slot, quotes and all
I even would prefer a wall from you in this case

Later. I am at work right now and don't have the time to wall, believe it or not ...

Well actually I don't have any wall to post on this. I was going to try to draw something convincing up from his ISO but after re-reading it a few times I don't think I can.

I just generally find him to be the least scummy player here

, his approach is consistent and rational. His posts seem to be in three general categories: factual observations about the game, casual votes based on those observations, and discussions of game mechanics. If he is scum, he's not trying very hard. He hasn't tried to cast any unjustified doubt on any slots that I saw, and I liked his evidence in scum casing other players.

The bolded feels unjustified and forced, given the sentence before it.
Please quote me one or more for each of the following categories:
-Factual observations about the game
-Casual votes based on those observations
-Discussions of game mechanics
-Evidence in scum casing other players

And then also explain why the first and third of those are town-indicative. Till then, this reads like you saying "Well he's scummy, and that's why I townread him"

hey look it's those things i wanted to say but was too dumb to formulate in a smart way
thanks bji
owe you one

I doubt anyone thought this was SvS before but I *really* don't think this is SvS

Post 550 checks out. I'm very conflicted on this slot.

This is the towniest post you've written thus far.
@Persivul do you admit that replacing out is slightly scum-indicative given the patterns of replace-outs on this site y/n?

I checked my 7 previous games, just going by slots there were 8/18 scum replaces and 21/60 town replaces. I didn't count multiple replaces to a slot, that was just too much work to count, but I don't recall seeing any particular disparity there between scum and town for that metric.

That's 44.4% scum slot replaces and 35.0% town slot replaces. So in my games, scum slots have replaced about 25% more often than town slots.

To be honest I expected an even larger difference before I did the math, but that's probably because I have replaced into three games and twice it was into a scum slot

, so I think that fact made me feel like scum slot replaces were even more likely than they are.

Exactly. People tend to make sweeping statements on such items as if they're fact, when really it's mostly confirmation bias from their own very limited experience.

This was a weird and misreppy way to summarize the Bji post here

79 - "I think this is a TvT interaction." Easy for scum to say as they know alignments.

130 - "To explain this a little more clearly I found the interaction to be likely TvT overall as an initial and not thought. It was nothing I felt confident about. It's too early to look at an interaction and settle on the players' alignments. The player I would find more likely to be scum in this interaction is clemency if I'm wrong about it being TvT." Oh fuck, I was way too confident earlier and we need mislynches, better dial back that read.

This is a fair reading of the situation. Agree with Garmr that your reads should probably lead you to be voting Creature here, though, not Clemency.

If I was scum, I would just go "hey guys join me on my X wagon" because then town will sheep with no thinking

lol

haha that's nonsense

i'm sheeping to get pressure off me

lolol

Spoiler: lololol

Did Reaper do anything lately?

Did Reaper do anything lately?

He killed a deer.

oh deer

Can you point out some good opinions?

I like: 62, 75, 140 in a special way. The whole series of 342 to 356 is what strikes me the most though, I don't think a scum would act and speak this way.
434 is... confusing.

I was basing myself on my Excel file because I remember next to nothing because of the pace of the game. I must admit Clemency hasn't produced much else than fluff since 356, which was some tome ago.

OK so this makes it very clear that you are simply emotionally reading Clem's posts to decide if he is town. I find that a very unsatisfying approach. Why are you so sure that Clem can't fake emotion?

This conflicts with your approach to Reaper in post 213 where you explicitly state that posts that are not scumhunting posts from Reaper cannot be used to get a read on him (Clemency gets to be read emotionally, but Reaper gets judged by his scum hunting?).

In post 225 you evaluate Raya on a different set of criteria - whether or not her arguments and counterpoints made sense to you.

While I admit that it is possible that you really are just applying what you think are the best evaluation criteria for each player separately, I do find it very odd that you give Clemency such a pass and don't really evaluate his play using the same or similar rules that you use for other players.

I am also still a bit miffed that you noted so clearly that Garmr's refusal to keep a hammer on me was inconsistent with your other games but you made no effort to explore that.

You have said some things in this game that had me convinced that you were a good guy, or at least that it was worth giving you one night to prove it, but rereading your posts in the light of your recent responses is just eroding my confidence away.

This is an okay post, and sorta relieves some of the Sashaddin/bji team paranoia I was having (though Bji seems smart enough to maybe catch on that it's time to fake some theater as scum. But whatever, that read is mostly unfounded based on this post alone)
@bji curious if you found Sashaddin's replies satisfying?

Hi Garmr and Persivul, join me on my Creature wagon. Then we can get a claim and see who is willing to hammer.

Yuck.

Wagons are good for town for several reasons, but forcing claims isn't one of them. That's a scum mindset.

This is unnecessary shade-casting. This game day has been long and slow, and a claim has to happen eventually

[Irrelephant11]

I didn't ask for PBPA, I just asked for *any* explanation for your read on me
It could be one word long tbh

Also the fact that I'm above all other players but Garmr means it's "relatively" pretty strong, even if you don't feel it that strongly
How strong is your read on me, though? I'll let you put words in your own mouth, if you object to mine

Garmr yeah readslist and maybe a new vote coming in a minute or two

[Irrelephant11]

Scum like to find roles.

this is true in a vacuum but do scum usually say "hey let's wagon this player and get a claim" so brazenly?
More importantly, isn't it about time in the game day to head toward L-1?

pedit: oh I thought your "towniest reads" weren't that strong

[Irrelephant11]

dude vote whoever your heart desires
if you're coming around on bji let's get him to claim already u kno?

[Irrelephant11]

Sorry, I haven't played in quite some time, I thought it was the expected outcome of an L-1 position.

I thought everyone was so hot for "information". Why doesn't a claim qualify?

The main info town is looking for is the person's reaction, who gets on the wagon, and whether a counter wagon forms.

Scum like to find roles.

So you actually believe the claim will be factual just because the person is at L-1?

If Raya/Creature is scum (which I think is more likely true than anything else I've seen this game) then the claim doesn't matter as it's a lie anyway - and if it's a lie that gets the slot off the hook today, it will almost certainly bury it later on. If Creature is town, then I'm assuming that he will be smart enough to make the claim that is best for town.

It's all information, man! And in my experience (which is limited and sparse, I admit), its real value can only be known as we approach the final days of the game and we can look back and see which players did things that were subtly contradictory in a way that would have scum motivation -- that's the only way that I haver personally ever actually identified scum beyond lucky guesswork.

The bolded is confusing me
why did you feel the need to make that point?

[Irrelephant11]

{Garmr, skitter, clemency}
{bji, creature}
{reaper, persivul}
{sashaddin}

VOTE: sashaddin
Seems very *I'm here and talking, which is towny, right?* and based on others' "hmm probably town but the read doesn't hold if I really think about it" I'd put my money on this slot being scum over the two lurker-y slots (which is not to say I townread either of those slots)
Reaper can still be busy-IRL scum
Persivul can still be scum playing hard to avoid a wagon
If bji or creature are scum I doubt I'll catch them out this game day
Feel good with my top row, or at least, as good as I can given skitter and garmr both have strong scumgames iirc (definitely skitter, maybe I made that up about garmr? lol). Strength of the read? I would defend any of these three from a lynch, probably

[Irrelephant11]

I'm willing to say bji just went up a half-step in my reads
didn't actually expect that post to come to existence full-fledged tbh

But yes, I agree with your conclusion that this play is actually fairly likely to be scum!Sashaddin's gameplan.
Compare Sashaddin's *towny feel by way of unthreatening* to your other townreads. Are you townreading anyone else for not getting their hands dirty (maybe you are but shame on you if so)? On the contrary, don't most of your townreads come from those who are willing to get into the fray to reveal others' alignments? Sashaddin's play seems to be mostly made up of Information Instead of Analysis (linked for whoever keeps asking for explanations of terminology)
My only hang-up on lynching Sashaddin is they appear to be new, but otoh they wouldn't be the first newbie to go wide-eyed and curious as a way of playing out their red role PM

[Irrelephant11]

cool, be paranoid about me after creature flips red
till then my read has just changed. *shrug*

As for Sashaddin, it's scummy because it only "looks so town" on first pass. It isn't content made to scumhunt; it's content made to avoid attention while seeming active. No one can point to anything Sashaddin did that is more likely to come from town than scum. In this gamestate where most other players seem pretty explicitly towny, that's enough for a lynch imo

@creature how does this Sash compare to whatever-alignment-Sash you've played with before?

[Irrelephant11]

Also this

Post 291: "I'm with bji on this one. I personally prefer to see that guy lynched than modkilled, per 228. Poor reason to lynch but better than the contrary.
VOTE: TexdoesHalo
"Post 594: "UNVOTE: Persivul
The slot is active and won't be mod-killed, and the guy seems towny for the time I've to catch up." (NOTE: this post came after my post which you are questioning, so it's not direct evidence for my explanation of my town read of Sash at that time; and it's also not a vote, but an unvote; but I am presenting it because it is consistent with my read of Sash handling his votes pretty casually - which to me means, they don't seem like they have much conviction or are meant to be very convincing to other players)

does not read to me like "casual voting based on factual observations"
it looks like careful voting coming from someone who doesn't know how to vote for town without getting attention for it

[Irrelephant11]

As for Sashaddin, it's scummy because it only "looks so town" on first pass. It isn't content made to scumhunt; it's content made to avoid attention while seeming active.

Fair point. But, I'd say the same about clem and creature, and you have them in your first and second tiers.

Creature has repeatedly provided his reads as he comes to them. Sure, he keeps the reasoning mostly to himself, but I think his reads make sense for the contexts they're in. Even if you disagree with me about that, I think providing reads throughout the thread is qualitatively different that comments along the lines of "this sure has happened" and "how does this setup work".
Clemency, similarly, is using his vote to grow wagons and increase pressure on slots when others provide strong scumcases.
Both of these are pro-town ways of playing, even if their posting styles are opaque from your point of view.

Contrast these to Sashaddin's ISO, where you will see hardly any pressure on any slots, and next to no game solving, opaque or otherwise

[Irrelephant11]

cool, be paranoid about me after creature flips red
till then my read has just changed. *shrug*

Why? You wouldn't find it odd if you were someone else reading this game?

Find what odd? My changed read? No. If you read my ISO I think you'll find the moment where my read changed, even if I didn't provide reasoning at the time, and I don't think it's scummy to lose a read from the early game as conversation continues.
It might be an interesting association if either of us ever flip scum, but as a pre-flip association it says nothing about either of our alignments as far as I can tell

[Irrelephant11]

Creature, thoughts on Sashaddin?

[Irrelephant11]

I like the points in the above post
I'm not sure I like the hedge-y vibe the post is full of. Mental note to revisit this if I'm in lylo with skitter

I don't think Clemency's sheeping is scummy, it basically never *actually leads towards a mislynch*, which I think scum would be trying to do under the guise of being sheepy
I think town throw their vote around more often, and while someone has said scum could easily fake it, I'm not sure I buy that that's what clemency is doing here (especially since sashaddin says this is familiar play from clem).
I think Clemency has had some genuine reactions and things that I've pointed out that I think come from town more often than scum, and regardless of sashaddin's alignment I think the fact sash townreads Clemency is +town more than most other people's reads on the slot.

Yes, like enigma. Also like porkens, and maybe like errantparabola? Haven't thought the last example through, but definitely the first two

I think I get what you're saying regarding Persivul. Do you think it's playstyle or scummy?

[Irrelephant11]

also he feels kinda newbtownie to me? but i'm not sure how much experience he has or if he's playing that up a bit?

also I agreed with this so I went and looked - Sashaddin has five completed games, and in his first game, he had lots of questions, like heknew nothing about forum mafia. I might buy that she has those same type of questions here (all but one of his completed games are newbie games) but this ISO from the completed normal game had more game solving early on imo. Eh, this is not as clear-cut as I previously thought. Still don't think Sashaddin deserves townreads, though. I bet at least one player who has called Sashaddin town is scum, regardless of his alignment

[Irrelephant11]

wow we out here playing mafia in 2018 while bji's out here playing 4d chess in 3062

pedit: also true lololol

[Irrelephant11]

you're kidding me

[Irrelephant11]

why is everyone a quickhammererrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Like even if this flips scum I'm still annoyed I think

[Irrelephant11]

Yeah, there's no way I believe that town!Garmr gets this salty

without even a single vote

on him. Sounds like scum trying to fake town frustration, but not doing it well.

No he'd get this frustrated as town

Yeah, there's no way I believe that town!Garmr gets this salty

without even a single vote

on him. Sounds like scum trying to fake town frustration, but not doing it well.

You don't know town garmr then because it's part of my reputation.

yeah

Why don't you just quit acting like a 2-year-old and accept that townies getting scum read is part of the game?

okay great you're townreading him

I was visited by skitter

Why can't it be bji/sash, again?
Also theoretically Persivul can be any loud role, just throwing that out there

pedit: yeah bji/sash with an outside chance of clem/sash thank u

[Irrelephant11]

"quit acting like a 2-year-old and accept that townies getting scum read is part of the game" isn't something you say to a scumread

[Irrelephant11]

you either came around to a townread on him or accidentally TMI'd as scum

persivul did you crumb

[Irrelephant11]

lol sorry to upset you, just curious if you did or not
it would resolve some of my "his scum action is loud and he didn't decide what he'd claim until the night phase" paranoia

[Irrelephant11]

loud doctor
loud cop
5 vts w/ maybe a less impressive PR
mafia goon
mafia 1-shot roleblocker??

cop + doctor is uncommon, maybe the "loud" is the way of counteracting - bad aim and scum knows you're a PR? but it's a micro... I'm bad at setup spec, but still paranoid about the loud cop

pedit: I mean I've considered that you could be town who *wants* to scumread Garmr but at the very least your subconscious acknowledges Garmr's anger is town-indicative
He could be performing in theory, yes, but in that case I don't think he will "quit acting like a 2-year-old" at your request anyway, so...
pedit2: no it's not? I'm in the middle of towncasing Garmr for anger, and now I think you're angry, why assume I'm calling you "angry scum"?

[Irrelephant11]

persivul did you crumb

No. Crumbing roles is stupid. Scum can do it as easily as town.

the tone of this felt angry
clearing reaper is towny, that's true

clemency, garmr is a very bad vote.

[Irrelephant11]

persivul did you crumb

No. Crumbing roles is stupid. Scum can do it as easily as town.

the tone of this felt angry
clearing reaper is towny, that's true

clemency, garmr is a very bad vote.

and why's that

he's town.

[Irrelephant11]

lol I didn't get a pedit

[Irrelephant11]

No, more to do with punctuation. "No. Crumbing roles is stupid. Scum can do it as easily as town." as compared to "No, crumbing roles is stupid - scum can do it as easily as town"
But I'm also literally arguing that [if you are angry] --> [then you are more likely town], so why would

be shade in this instance?

pedit: hmmmm is this too many roles yet

[Irrelephant11]

Btw Just going to claim I'm a motion detector I motion detected Ele there was no movement which is why ele is low on my list to lynch.

oh good this is a fake claim

A Motion Detector is considered Normal on mafiascum.net. A Motion Detector should receive the same result if they see an action being performed by their target as they would if they see an action being performed on their target (and the same if they see both).

[Irrelephant11]

clem, maybe I was wrong on garmr

[Irrelephant11]

but I got skitter's protection?
I'm just gonna

@mod

about this situation just in case there was a mistake in night action resolving (if we don't hear anything I'll assume it's a no)

[Irrelephant11]

I've just been townreading him all game and wanted to pressure clem
I'm still sorta townreading him which is why my mind is going to "mod, mistake?" rather than "lynch the liar" but maybe my reads are bad and it's just the latter

[Irrelephant11]

inb4 someone else tries to claim they were visited by skitter

[Irrelephant11]

....
lol
is that you claiming scum?
do we wait for more people's reactions or do we just lynch
lololol

[Irrelephant11]

I don't think I'm a reasonable partner here, but I agree he's 99% confscum
persivul and clemency probtown

if garmr flips green that will be my third consecutive 9p where someone gamethrew, so please please please flip red

[Irrelephant11]

only not voting because I think it's reasonable to say "he's definitely the lynch" and play out the game day

[Irrelephant11]

loud doctor
loud cop
5 vts, maybe a weak tpr
mafia, maybe a 1-shot pr
mafia motion detector

sounds about right
loud + loud + motion detector gives scum a strong chance of catching or semi-catching a tpr every night, so the cop + doctor isn't that unreasonable
I think I believe the cop claim now
reaper is town, persivul town (re-evaluate in lylo if he's alive), clemency probtown still

pedit: I think it would be more helpful to scum than town to lynch you faster, so no
you aren't obligated to keep posting, though

[Irrelephant11]

I'm not sure; I definitely need to re-evaluate. Garmr being scum makes sashaddin seem more likely town

[Irrelephant11]

who does that leave? Bji? Clem? reaper and persivul vouch for each other

pedit: but if I'm his partner, as soon as mod doesn't intervene I look silly/wrong/partner-y, so what's the different?

[Irrelephant11]

difference?*

I arrived where you're saying I should have arrived like two posts later. I don't see why it's unreasonable that my immediate reaction comes from town!me who townreads garmr strongly up to that point

[Irrelephant11]

I also think I'd be extremely bold scum to defend Garmr with such strength (literally making the same "he's town" post as him) as his partner. I agree his play kinda looks like how he might treat me if we were partners, but I don't think the reverse is true

[Irrelephant11]

skitter protecting me is +town for me, too (she's played with me a number of times), but me saying this probably will make you feel like that's not true, esp. given a tunnel on me
whatever I'll stop towncasing myself and sort sash/bji/clem for you
my best guess rn is bji/garmr, using their distaste for each other's personalities to create distance

pedit: why couldn't it be him pocketing me? We just played a game together that ended at the beginning of the month, I think it's very possible he played up aspects of what got me to townread him there so that I'd townread him again here

[Irrelephant11]

I guess I shouldn't clear Sash just because Garmr was okay with his lynch, but imo it did look like Garmr really was aiming to lynch him, not just giving lip service to the idea
his claim is also indicative of buddying me (if it had worked), btw, and I don't think he'd forget skitter targeted me if that result was discussed in the scumchat

[Irrelephant11]

Oh that was explosive. I think how Clemency handled it was genuine and townie, through the case bj presented was meh so I felt like he didn't need to be that dramatic but every player is different I guess.

Not sure how to handle Bji as his point look like they are over reaching but since it's still early in the game and it was the post that broke rvs that is acceptable. So null still.

Not that indicative of a clem/garmr team but doesn't rule it out either
If it's a bji team this reads like "I know I should scumread bji but I don't want to so null"
133 sorta subtly encourages townreading clemency while shading raya for doing so
Emphasizes his nullread on bji which is a little anti-partner-y

Yeah I'm not liking bji either now. One reach was excusable, but this second one seems even more forced. Especially how he ended it with "irrelphant being a null read but worthless if town so should lynch anyway."

Also anti-partner-y, this is a lot of attention now on bji, unless he decided he really wants to d1 bus
167 followed by 168 reads a little bit like "Oh yeah I'm bussing him, I should vote him", actually. 167 also showing him pocketing me by way of whiteknighting, but inb4 "no, it's a chainsaw!"

You know what
VOTE: BJI

I got lots of reactions from Clemency and Irrelephant so I feel like I'm getting quite a bit done here.

I leave it up to my fellow townies to decide if they think that this game will be won by applying pressure and forcing reactions or by sitting back and making unconvincing passive judgements.

I spent quite a bit of time thinking about this.

While it is ideal for town to kick things off and place pressure on the game. Scum would also benefit for being aggressive all the time so they can dictate the pace of the game. Also it works well with naive townies if you appear to be taking the lead.

That being said
-You are conscious of your appearance and you are constantly trying to push that your aggressiveness makes you town.
-You jumped from a scum read to a null read while shading the fuck out the null read slot.
-You ignored the point above when I mentioned it and pushed even harder that you are winning the game for town painting a picture.
-Your points are reacy.

These things make me lean scum on you as it seems you have more a image complex, than actually wanting to find scum.

I can't decide if ending this was "scum lean" is indicative of "I have a strong case on you but I don't want to say this is a full on scumread because I don't want too many people to sheep or "I have a case on you but I TMI you're town so I'll just say scumlean

So far basically no mention of sashaddin, which might be slightly partner-y, but imo maybe not for garmr?
I have to hand it to him, nothing solidly partner-indicative coming out of this ISO dive yet.

I'm at 184 and if the bji thing is bussing, he went all in. There's not much more than that to gather from just reading their back and forth imo.

Oh I remember you now your that guy who talked shit to me and piskop, while being utterly wrong in game. Despite me fake claiming cop that game on town, my fake claim made it kinda obvious who scum were after that point and put town in a postion to win.

Let's not get into the details, they are irrelevant here.

Deal

This might be like a little anti-partner-y? "Oh I remember you now" + *having this conversation in the thread*
Otoh if the goal at gamestart was to distance hard and fast this is all fakeable stuff

Oh l-1 ok. I feel people panic to much when someone hit's l-1. That being said
UNVOTE: Bji
I don't want the day to end yet.

Was going to give a few thoughts of the people I haven't mentioned yet since I'm having trouble sorting them.

Sashaddin-kinda a fluffy poster as most of his posts are fluff his none fluff post mirrors my reads a bit so I do like that.

Skitter- Post walls information. Some of it is fluff some it actual information. Doesn't really progress the game much but not really scummy. I think his actions will dictate his alignment more than what he posts.

flubber-flubber is flubber so a compromise lynch.

Reaper of souls- nothing game relevant.

I'll keep my thought on irrelphant to myself .

+scum for bji, because unvoted at L-1.
+scum for sashaddin, with the caveat that "townread for having similar reads to me" is sorta unique wording for a scumteam. But again I still feel sashaddin got more townreads than he deserved yesterday and I think these throwaway comments from Garmr could be part of that. Actually maybe this is more indicative of TMI/buddying than scumteam? ughh everything is wifom

266 and 272 don't feel like partners. I think clem is actually the most likely partner at this point based on Garmr's play? But nothing is ruling out sashaddin, either, and on his own I scumread sashaddin more

yeah this game is way too quiet
Garmr who's never scum here? Maybe we just PoE the lynch

Going to be honest i wouldn't say anyone has actually earned that right to be never scum and no ones really off the table of suspicion but If i would have to pick people to take off.


I would of said clemency because he comes off as genuine and his conflict with bji looked townie for me through he hasn't done much. So slight town lean.

I also want to give Sashaddin a town lean for having a similar thought process to me in some of his responses I had that bite my arse before through.

Actually I bet it's not bji as partner just based on this post

I am also still a bit miffed that you noted so clearly that Garmr's refusal to keep a hammer on me was inconsistent with your other games but you made no effort to explore that.

No offence Bji but I never played with sash before so this strikes me as odd you would say this. So I went and looked through sash's posts and he never actually said my refusal to hammer is inconstant with my other games ( If you did check my other finished games you would find i'm not consistent on that anyway and do how I feel at the time.)

So can you show me a post you mixed up with or got this impression from?

sorta defends sashaddin here, treads lightly around bji in the process (he hasn't felt the need to do so before)
+scum to sash I think
787 and 788 followed by 803 is kinda scum indicative for sash here, too. Garmr votes sashaddin but votes himself almost immediately after, reducing the chance for a wagon on sash.

819 and 825 are where it seemed like Garmr really did want to lynch Sash, though, and to "clear his name" by way of sash's green flip. This is the most anti-partner thing between them (he also doesn't offer up clemency as a lynch option, but he participates in shutting down clemency's vote on him, which doesn't read like a partner, either).

tl;dr I'm confused
If I had to rank likely partners

Sashaddin - Tries to contribute to keeping Sash townread all of D1, doesn't have "paranoia" till N1. But wants Sash's lynch first this game day. But ehh some distancing at some point is to be expected, and I scumread this slot the strongest in isolation
Clemency - Garmr actually only ever townreads this slot, but like with Sash he kinda hedges his bets. The interaction this game day ("Because I'm town.") is probably the most anti-partner thing they've got
Bji - lots of distancing without ever actually trying to get the lynch is fairly partner-indicative, but there's a

lot

of theater here if they're the team

[Irrelephant11]

not really feeling scum!creature rn; i'm not very interested in voting him today

Who are you interested in voting? You've been wishy-washy on everyone.

i think irrel, garmr, and creature are town
i'm tending town on you but not as strongly as i'd like, same with clemency, although he's been growing on me
i don't have a read on reaper
persivul's on the scummier side of null
i don't know where to put sash rn and i'm trying to work that out rn

i wouldn't vote any of irrel/garmr/creature today
probably not clemency either, or even you
i'm fine with my persivul vote rn
i would probably compromise on any of {reaper/sash}

This kill makes a little more sense from a garmr/sash team than any other, but that's pretty level 1 thinking (and why not kill me? I'm the head of the "let's-kill-sash" train, though hmm maybe that's why lol)

[Irrelephant11]

clemency D1 has nothing that couldn't be partners with Garmr, but his "wow this is great" reaction to Garmr's scumclaim felt somewhat genuine??
I would like Sash and Bji to show up now and take it away

[Irrelephant11]

I agree he's worth ignoring
Just to be clear before we move on, is there any chance Persivul is scum here? No, right? I can't think of a way he's scum (especially if garmr does indeed flip motion detector) unless town was way outgunned here

[Irrelephant11]

Sash and Clem, please sort our your reads each other (and on me and bji, secondarily)

[Irrelephant11]

I don't think there's a point to voting on his target. He will either get a useful result or he won't. The only reason it would matter who he targeted is if there was an ascetic townie or something

[Irrelephant11]

garmr will be dying today so he will be the only scum if he is scum, so he can only target town if he is scum, so it doesn't matter who he targets
If scum leave him alive for the wifom or because they can roleblock him, it also doesn't matter who he targets
If he dies, it also doesn't matter who he targets

[Irrelephant11]

If scum leave him alive for the wifom

right okay in this case it "matters" because he could catch scum, but having everyone vote for the target probably doesn't make it that much more likely and in this case he's trustworthy town anyway

[Irrelephant11]

there's almost certainly no godfather in this game

[Irrelephant11]

Neither, though I have many finished games onsite. A godfather in a micro with a cop and no other investigative roles is basically a setup where "if the cop checks the godfather, town loses" which isn't a setup that would get approved unless I'm just pants-on-head when it comes to how roles work.

[Irrelephant11]

Could someone unvote? I'd like to look at this closer over the weekend.

In case a hammer happens: right now I'd say lynch sash tomorrow, if that doesn't end it lynch irrelephant the next day. But again there's still some things I'd like to look into.

Can you talk more about why I should be lynched over Clemency in lylo?
I agree Sash is more likely scum than Clemency, but I obviously disagree that I'm more likely scum than Clemency

[Irrelephant11]

pretty much
Not that I think it's 0% chance he's scum, just that I don't think I'd use one of our two remaining lynches on him
If there's another PR out there who can get more info maybe things might change

[Irrelephant11]

Clemency you're clearly in the thread and reading, why haven't you tried to sort between me/bji/sash yet?

[Irrelephant11]

dumb

[Irrelephant11]

dumb

What is?

Plot twist: I was blocked last night.
VOTE: sash

[Irrelephant11]

I don't know what that sentence means
I'm happy to claim in that order

[Irrelephant11]

I think we resolve claims before entering the wifom-territory of "why is persivul alive"

pedit: assuming that means vt, I am also vt. I tried crumbing that I was minor investigative to eat a nightkill, but that failed

[Irrelephant11]

Persivul, why would Sash kill Reaper instead of you? Even if he were roleblocker, I think your level of play is higher than everyone else's here so I would expect Sash to want to get rid of you instead of a player (Reaper) who wasn't really contributing anything to town's chances of winning other than being a warm body.

btw the answer to this question, regardless of who's scum, is that reaper was towncleared, whereas persivul was not (reaper only confirmed he was visited). Theoretically persivul could still be scum, so anyone else as scum has a greater chance of mislynching persivul here than mislynching reaper

garmr might have chosen the nightkill, too, scum have daychat
I stand by my assertion that this gamestate is dumb, though I guess I should be happier with one scum flip than I am

[Irrelephant11]

I've tried it one other time recently, in a newbie game. It didn't work there either

[Irrelephant11]

fwiw I am townreading sash's more recent posts, even as I stand by my analysis of his early game & Garmr interactions

[Irrelephant11]

??
I was literally just expressing frustration at the fact that your status as semi-conf!town was removed & the implication scum has a pr. That's dumb, and I don't like it. There was nothing to "bite" because "dumb" implies.. nothing? that I can think of

[Irrelephant11]

I guess I have to consider that Persivul's continual shade-throwing in my direction could potentially come from scum trying to save the easier mislynch for lylo

[Irrelephant11]

I don't want to push you; I still think you're more likely town than scum given claims.
I'm being transparent (have been all game) and you're just repeating over and over that it's scummy. Sometimes town get caught defending scum. I'm just genuinely confused you find my play regarding garmr s/s, and one explanation for that is that despite it's illogicality it would be a good time for scum!you to suspect me.

I'll let clem post more, I think he's gotten off too easy since garmr became confscum.

[Irrelephant11]

You're kidding me that that is a scumread.
Maybe you really are kidding me? Just to get a reaction? I can't tell.

Three posts after a very negative piece of information was revealed, I said "Dumb". I was immediately asked what I was referring to, and immediately explained. What about that is opaque?

[Irrelephant11]

waiting on more from clem to be able to say

[Irrelephant11]

I did my part last game day; he didn't. I'll take the chance that waiting for him to explain his reads more gets me scumread, since I think the onus is on him to find scum rn.

[Irrelephant11]

Those are all great points.

I don't think persivul is scum, he is the last person I would like to lynch
That said, he is not 100% mechanically clear. "I was roleblocked" has been done by scum making a fakeclaim before.
I have lost mafia games by not considering that the person who I have most reason to townread *could* still be scum, and I am acknowledging that I have enough paranoia about the gamestate to consider it.

[Irrelephant11]

okay great, I'm ready to say persivul never gets lynched if everyone else is. loud doctor is not enough town power to go up against motion detector & *something loud*

[Irrelephant11]

persivul, let me know if you want me to towncase myself/who you want me to focus on sorting, etc.
It seems I am at the bottom of your PoE, which I personally think I can fix, but I'll let you lead from here. I still think Clem should provide more in-depth thoughts before much else happens

[Irrelephant11]

yeah but I'm pretty sure town would tell the truth here, unless their hidden PR is somehow gamewinning in a way that hasn't come up yet. Can't think of anything.

[Irrelephant11]

I'm sorry to report you're overtunneled.
I will sort after clemency posts thoughts (if you haven't caught on by now, they're my biggest scumread)

[Irrelephant11]

No, saying I want him to post more before I post more is me saying I want him to prove his reads come from his own head

[Irrelephant11]

@Clemency I am aware that you are active onsite today without posting here. Please provide deeper thoughts on who you think is scum

[Irrelephant11]

Okay I’m here
I’m only on mobile today so this might be a challenge
But I’m here and ready

[Irrelephant11]

Aaaand I’m getting called into a meeting
I will be here today tho

[Irrelephant11]

Clemency’s consideration that Garmr choosing me as his fakeclaim might be town-indicative for me is a good look for Clem
F me this is hard
I’m gonna re read D1

I will try to clear up/explain my reads as best I can, since it seems like I’m the lynch (has anyone explained how I’m suddenly scummiest yet? I get that I had some scummy moments but I don’t think I’ve really seen a case this game day)

Also ftr I’m only accessing Mafiascum from mobile indefinitely so expect shorter posts and less PbP, but hopefully my analysis won’t suffer

[Irrelephant11]

Meta reading Bji and realizing he endgames as scum in his most recent game (2016) makes me more wary of him than I was previously

I think I’m actually ready to say it’s almost never Clem
To go further into my reasoning on Clem, he has to do nothing here but let me get lynched (and pin bji or persivul with the blame in lylo/let Sashaddin get lynched in lylo). He has no reason to speculate further about my towniness. I still really like his D1, too, and his interactions with Garmr, unless he was openwolfing this entire game (some of his posts can be construed as talking to a partner very openly, which seems unlikely, not to mention the way garmr shut his vote down d2, like I did)

[Irrelephant11]

Bji suddenly scumreading me most this game day when the town leader wants my lunch is perhaps the most suspicious thing any of Clem/sash/Bji have done this game

I’ll keeo posting about Bji meta and sash read as I go

[Irrelephant11]

There is alot to reread but I did notice something very interesting:

Garmr and Irrelephant talk to each other *alot*.
Garmr and Clem talk to each other *some*.
Garmr and Sash talk to each other *never*.

Still reading ...

This is something I’ve noticed but switch my name with bji’s
Maybe it’s still just sash???
Paranoia is real

[Irrelephant11]

Okay so I think it’s Sash again

[Irrelephant11]

But I’m like extremely paranoid of scum!bji

[Irrelephant11]

Bji can you explain again why you were so intent on asking NAI questions of multiple players at gamestart?
And why you were townreading Garmr D1?

[Irrelephant11]

Clemency:
post 895 tells me to lych him regardless of alignment
his vote/unvote/vote makes think think he could be bussing a scum!garmr
860 is ugh.

bji:
not yet fully redempted, I can still sense a bit of possible scum in his posts. Less reaching than Day 1 but now we're Day 2.
but I feel his mind going into all directions at once, it could be a confused town or a scum blurring his tracks. I could extract a few posts but I'm typing this quick because my wife can need me anytime.

Irrrelephant:
either town a a very good scum game. I could go on more if needed.

Reaper, Persivul, Garmr
being non-lethally targeted can come from many roles from what I've read. So I seee there's a triangle between Persivul, Garmr and Reaper. I can elaborate later. Garmr flipping will eliminate a few of the outcomes I see possible.

I'll post and elaborate more later when I have time.

The last paragraph here came after Garmr’s slip and is extremely weird

Sashaddin can you explain further why you never once scumread Garmr? I realize the hypocrisy in asking this but want to hear your reasoning

[Irrelephant11]

Bji what made me your acummiest read this gameday?

[Irrelephant11]

Okay
I still want the answer, because I’m sorting the remaining players. You’ll thank me after you mislynch me and are stuck sorting hard-to-sort players in lylo. You’re enjoying the comfort of two mislynches, but fmpov I’m the next most likely lynch and I only get one shot to help town lynch correctly in lylo.
Also that actually doesn’t make sense as a post worth scumreading but I digress

[Irrelephant11]

Have you read any other games of mine?

Wish Skitter were still here tbh

[Irrelephant11]

I don’t care to defend against bji’s read on me; I care to see his progression is motivated by rereading and internal processing rather than matching his reads up to the conftown’s reads
He has to provide reasons for that

Geez I could be like “hello persivul how are you today” and you’d say I’m scum for empty posts you’re so so overtunneled
Like if you want to lynch me when I done sorting, fine, you’ll get your lynch I’m sure, but at least stop interrupting me doing the thing you *ostensibly want* me to do - you’re giving other people an out from answering my questions by calling me scummy for asking them.

Pedir: Skitter has played with me a bunch of times and persivul is scumreading anytime I defend myself so I wish she were here to do it for me

[Irrelephant11]

I offered to help you not tunnel on me. Your answer showed that it would not help. I have not towncased myself since.

[Irrelephant11]

I think Sash is still the simplest answer, but I’m trying to read enough into Bji to be able to remove that paranoia because I’m learning now that they have a great scumgame

[Irrelephant11]

I agree I’m playing poorly this game day. Partially mobile posting partially not expecting to be a scumread, and also not being allowed to defend myself

Sash did you see my questions on the last page?

[Irrelephant11]

Oh my bad I missed 1149
Same

I’m literally townreading everyone alive, where have I gone wrong
Kinda want to lynched so the decision of who to lynch in lylo isn’t mine tbh

[Irrelephant11]

The above is a joke, btw. I don’t want to be lynched (before anyone claims it’s AtE)

Sash talk to me more about Clem bussing Garmr in the world where they’re both scum. What made you think it was bussing, rather than just a vote on scum?

[Irrelephant11]

Bji, please explain what made me the scummiest in your eyes this gameday
At this point I’m the biggest lylo liability so I don’t think I’ll fight my lynch, but unless Persivul is 100% sure who scum is after I flip vt, I’m going to continue playing to try to solve that; if it makes me more scumread, nothing changes anyway lol.

[Irrelephant11]

Maybe I should rule out Bji just because he deserves the scum win the most
Clem why did you vote Garmr start of D1 again?

[Irrelephant11]

I mean I want you to explain again why you voted Garmr at the start of D2, and point to which Garmr posts contributed to the read

[Irrelephant11]

Lol
It’s not Sash

[Irrelephant11]

Look closer at Bji, his scumgame is strong and there was no real reason to hammer there, I’ve still been rereading

[Irrelephant11]

Sash being Garmr’s d2 Target shows he wanted to pocket me and mislynch sash

[Irrelephant11]

I didn’t get hammered by three townies

[Irrelephant11]

This is town me if you didn’t figure it out yet and I really can’t figure out if it’s Clem or Bji

[Irrelephant11]

1177 is a terrible look for Bji (even trying to pocket Persivul, maybe)

[Irrelephant11]

I mean I want you to explain again why you voted Garmr at the start of D2, and point to which Garmr posts contributed to the read

I wanted this because I agreed with sash’s feeling that voting Garmr at start of d2 does look like bussing in retrospect
So it might still be Clem here
Sorry I couldn’t sort bji/Clem here but the fact that I got mislynched here is a joke anyway so GL

[Irrelephant11]

It’s never Persivul

[Irrelephant11]

(Though every bit of setup spec I’ve ever done has been wrong so what do I know)

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Still, town has to have more than one PR, and unless Bji claims a plausible one before twilight ends, don’t believe him in lylo

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(Felt like he was setting up for a lylo fake claim earlier)

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Wow I thought I had so much more time to reread and sort

[Irrelephant11]

Bji saying that Garmr picking me as his target is +scum for me is also scummy from Bji

[Irrelephant11]

He should at least know it’s NAI since scum pocket townies at least as often if not more often than they hide their scumpartners with innos

[Irrelephant11]

Whoever is in lylo: give some slight town points to whoever votes first
(If scum votes first for the town points, all the better: it makes lylo a 1v1 and ensures town is in control of the hammer)
Town votes first more often than scum

[Irrelephant11]

Lol at this silent thread
Is there a traitor in this game? It would explain so much

[Irrelephant11]

Why is Clem even voting me?
Why is Bji silent in this twilight?

Mannn good luck lylo town

[Irrelephant11]

Thanks for the warning
I don’t twilight troll

[Irrelephant11]

Good luck lynching scum, occan’s razor should have told y’all my interactions with Garmr made me obvtown who got pocketed so I’m annoyed
I don’t have time to reread more right now so hope y’all can puzzle this out

[Irrelephant11]

Occam’s razor is Clem is scum I think

[Irrelephant11]

Obvious in retrospect
Like what is that question? “Why didn’t you call out Garmr for successfully pocketing you”

[Irrelephant11]

There is literally such a thing as obvtown and I do know it
Towncasing oneself isn’t scummy and Persivul will be learning a lot about how helpful “tells” are

I don’t think you tried to sort me at all, I think you came up with reasons to vote me when it was convenient for you to hammer

[Irrelephant11]

Which annoyingly, town has done before

[Irrelephant11]

Bji you should share your thoughts on remaining players
There’s a nonzero chance you get nightkilled here

[Irrelephant11]

Hey Persivul, remember when I said “let me know if you want me to towncase myself”?
And then you said no?
And then you mislynched me and told me it’s because I didn’t towncase myself

I take 0 responsibility for my own mislynch here

[Irrelephant11]

I don't really care for you so I'm glad you're annoyed.

Classy, kind, funny, and helpful!
Thanks for this comment!

[Irrelephant11]

persivul you more than anyone should be providing reads here

[Irrelephant11]

Okay
You two made the wrong decision here (or one of you did it intentionally in which case get out of the thread you already mislynched me stop pissing me off), so rationalize it all you want
You scumread me when I defended myself and you scumread me when I didn’t. You literally called every single word out of my mouth a “tell”. There was no escaping your tunnel on me
Who took advantage of your tunnel? Bji or Clem?

[Irrelephant11]

skitter protecting me is +town for me, too (she's played with me a number of times), but me saying this probably will make you feel like that's not true, esp. given a tunnel on me
whatever I'll stop towncasing myself and sort sash/bji/clem for you
my best guess rn is bji/garmr, using their distaste for each other's personalities to create distance

pedit: why couldn't it be him pocketing me? We just played a game together that ended at the beginning of the month, I think it's very possible he played up aspects of what got me to townread him there so that I'd townread him again here

I did say it was him pocketing me
Who’s scum? @bji

[Irrelephant11]

I don’t remember telling you what you’re thinking subconsciously. I think you’re condescension-reading my politeness, which is a character trait I exhibit in all games. At the very least the quickhammering was crappy.

Persivul if you’re confident everyone knows your reads, great. I don’t feel like I do, but I won’t be in lylo anyway, so *shrug*

Pedit: “messed up”? Lol. Every player other than me *has been towny*. That’s why you mislynched me, remember? So it’s not messed up, it’s where your head would be at if you were in my shoes

[Irrelephant11]

Being paranoid in this situation is a major towntell for me, and could have been discovered by reading any game where I reached or nearly reached lylo.
Whatever

Bji i think you should answer it in case you’re nightkilled (not what I’m expecting but within the realm of possibility)

I’m angrier than ever at you both rn but also townreading you both because I don’t think scum would care to argue with me here

Pedit: well, sorry I said that, I guess. I think I was scumreading you at the time -> trying to get in your head, so it’s not personal, I just thought I’d found a TMI moment from scum

[Irrelephant11]

If my tantrum can make it easier to sort other players, I’ll take it.
VOTE: clemency

Scum!bji deserves the win
Sash could theoretically be scum but they towned it up this game day imo
Clemency basically went AWOL when Garmr slipped

[Irrelephant11]

Wish we could have discussed that moment sooner, Persivul, i probably would have scumread it too without an explanation

[Irrelephant11]

No hard feelings post game from me either, btw! I hate losing and getting mislynched feels a lot like losing, especially in a game state where I personally would have probably needed two lynches to get it rught

[Irrelephant11]

Right... but you still scumread me for the *actual paranoia* that made it hard for me to come a conclusion
I hope we get ‘em in lylo! I did really like some of each of your play this game (and am impressed if either of you are scum)!
I’m outie

[Irrelephant11]

If my tantrum can make it easier to sort other players, I’ll take it.
VOTE: clemency

Scum!bji deserves the win

I'm totally lost by this comment. Are you saying the most obvious scum would be Clem but bji might have pulled an exraordinary scum game?

Yes

[Irrelephant11]

Bji i think you should answer it in case you’re nightkilled (not what I’m expecting but within the realm of possibility)

Any prediction on the outcome? I asked in an earlier post and didn't get an answer.

Idk who scum will kill, though I think you and Persivul are more likely than Clem/Bji

[Irrelephant11]

Great finish Bji!
Proud of town for pulling this one out

@sash did you vote first because I had said that the first to vote in lylo should get town points? I hope your answer is yes - I was hoping my “advice” would get scum to play lylo awkwardly and get into the 1v1, whether scum was you/Clem/bji

[Irrelephant11]

Oh and good reads, Creature! I wish I had pushed my Sashaddin scumread harder