Mini Normal 2046: Autumn's Farewell [Endgame]

[Moongrass]

Hello

VOTE: OkaPoka

[Moongrass]

I think it's reasonable to deduce a BrightEyedFish and OkaPoka scumteam.

DrDoLittle, mbaki and Varsoon appear to be the ideal scum pushes today. I suppose being in this game so long tends to make it harder to see through the paranoia which I believe scum are stirring to the point of apathy.

Mbaki and DrDoLittle feel very town based on their attempts to solve the game today with what looks to be genuine thought processes. Varsoon has reason to be genuinely frustrated as he's ping-ponged around the game with scum pushing for his lynch to distract from the actual scum.

Kmd, varsoon, and mbaki I consider cleared from the mass claim. It's possible that one of these could be a mafia goon however, I also townread them for other reasons which I've briefly touched on here. Creature is town.

DDL would you consider objectively looking at your tunnel on mbaki? Do you have strong reason to suspect him that you wouldn't mind sharing?

[Moongrass]

Well that's awkward. I'll have to relook at my PoE of which I believe kmd would be the least likely town in my townreads.

Apologies.

[Moongrass]

@Varsoon: I'm sorry if you've said already, but could you rank the order of your reads? I would like to brainstorm with you.

[Moongrass]

To elaborate on my OkaPoka scum theory: Oka's entrance was a disaster with no real intent to sort anyone based on reactions to it. The only purpose I could see was to hide behind meaningless content in a way that one might consider 'too scummy to be scum.'

I am engaging with the game?

whatever

ill tone it down

This post sortly after being pushed nullifies and 'too scummy to be scum' theories as it shows a self-consciousness that an non-caring naturally scummy player would not exhibit. Furthermore, this post excuses scum!oka from further contributing to discussion.

When we fast forward to the easy mislynches being pushed today - Oka's stubborness in the mass claim, and his shallow shading of Varsoon, make complete sense as scumplay. I find it difficult to believe that a town player confident enough to open with RVS theory, deteriorates to a "Varsoon wants to claim last because he's trying to out our PRs" argument.

His thinking is not progressing in a towny way, contrary to mbaki and DDL who have created more genuine, and nuanced reads, as more information became available.

[Moongrass]

Hello

VOTE: OkaPoka

Hello, whose alt are you?

*taps nose*

[Moongrass]

Moongrass what is your experience with mafia and how much reading have you done?

I have played a few games on a few sites. I'm not a newbie by any means though, if that's what you're trying to determine.

I have read enough to townread this slot before I chose to replace in. This included going back to first few pages, the massclaim, skimming my own ISO, skimming creature's, and your ISO.

[Moongrass]

Creature, can you post a reads list please?

Varsoon, Kmd or DDL scum

rest town

Creature, why are you townreading OkaPoka?

You townread suka before her claim?

I was townleaning Suka before the claim due to the early wagon momentum both on and off this slot. I also liked the "casing is scummy" ideals for town. The massclaim consolidated my inklings into a full-on townread.

How is this question giving you any useful information?

[Moongrass]

Whatever, I think you need to skim isos again because your characterization of slots are just ??? in a lot of cases. Take your time and let it sink in and stuff.

Could you point out where my thinking is "???"

It'll help me to show you clearer thought processes which would be more useful to town than just dismissing all my thoughts altogether.

[Moongrass]

Creature, why are you townreading OkaPoka?

Postcount

This is NAI for many players unless you have meta to back it up. Does Oka have a meta of lowposting as scum?

No. Infact, he has the opposite scum meta. Creature applying his own scum meta to read a player he isn't very familar with is dubious at best. Interesting.

[Moongrass]

Because I need to know what I'm working with.

Only scum would need to know who they're up against at this point.

[Moongrass]

unless you're Nancy Drew 39 or MathBlade.

Creature, a precursory skim of Oka's meta should tell you that Oka has very active scum meta.

[Moongrass]

My case on Varsoon does not come down to he's trying to out the prs so it's scum. There is more stuff in there, I think I was pretty clear when I said he's trying to out the prs as supporting evidence but the main reason is his low activity and bad responses to questions. In fact I think that part of my case is the least important part?

I don't see how mbaki is an ideal scum push today. Perhaps DDL. I guess varsoon, but you then again he's scummy so yeah.

DDL and mbaki 1v1 is not nuanced or solv-y. In fact its the opposite. Maybe it started out ok but they ended up slinging mud at each other. I don't get the genuine impression at all.

Thank you. Could you point out where Varsoon has made scummy responses?

[Moongrass]

I mean at least sit down and read my iso instead of light skim

I may get to that point, but for now I'm happy interacting with you as it's only making my read stronger.

[Moongrass]

I don't think you answered my questions from the last page, by the way.

Apologies. I will make them my first priority shortly.

[Moongrass]

Don't waste time defending your slot please, nobody is lynching you this game.

Who's the second scum if you think one is Oka? And I know this was asked, but how much of the game have you read and do you intend on reading more?

Firstly, I was answering pseudo-valid questions, not defending myself.

I'm still trying to work out who the second scum is, however Creature does seem to have a point about a possible Oka/Varsoon team due to the amount of what appears to be flailing going on ITT.

I have skimmed enough to be confident in my scumread on Oka. If I have to give you a hard number I'd say I've skimmed 10% of this game. As I've alluded to, I do intend to read more, but for now I'm finding a lot of potentially useful information in the current activity. I have yet to do any real VCA which is the next thing I'd look into.

[Moongrass]

@Mbaki: could you please explain the DDL scum situation a little better so I can narrow my search?

[Moongrass]

wow mbaki wagon so good everyone should join me imo

wow im always serious imo

mbaki confirmed scum

I'm quite concerned that these early posts from the scum traitor are signalling to the scum team, assuming they were aware they had a traitor.

Even more concerning is the traitor mis-kill for scum, which implies that the team were not aware of the traitor's existence.

Spoiler:

i'd lynch like 5 other people before mbaki at this point, even though i think Nero is right his play isn't great i don't think the bar is very high right now

mbaki, why don't you townread me despite having the same reaction to Nero's posting?

zzzzzzz

btw nero is my top townread

Don't you have to read the game to get a vibe?

I asked you a question first.

Not a question that has any value.

i'd lynch like 5 other people before mbaki at this point, even though i think Nero is right his play isn't great i don't think the bar is very high right now

Who are these 5 mystery scummers?

yyotta
DDL
brighteyedfish
leodanny
vorkuta

if we're lynching for 'fluff content' or lack of content i think these are all more likely to flip scum than mbaki

This progression on mbaki makes no sense, so it's logical to conclude that the initial posts from rb about mbaki being "confirmed scum," were indeed signalling posts.

It also appears that rb is chainsawing against the mbaki pushes when he is stuck in a tough spot. From this point onwards, mbaki proceeds to attempt to pocket rb, unaware that he is the scum traitor.

As a brief sidenote: I believe every person that rb listed as being preferable to lynch over mbaki, is town.

Spoiler:

...

i dont think u are getting it

i can do all of that

but i think it would be better if i had flips to work off of

badposting

i know we have no flips. that's why im ambivalent between the choices of BEF and DDL.

I would prefer a flip on Yyotta, but a flip is better than no flip.

I'm not going to case someone d1 because I'm not confident in any of my scumreads. The best I can offer is a strong policy choice.

why would you prefer a yyotta flip over DDL or BEF?

how does being not confident make you not able to point out the things you don't like about BEF/DDL?

Why would you be a liability to town?

stop shitposting

I don't really feel like these pushes on Oka are genuine as rb should've moved his vote or questioned him rather than chastising Oka.

I think rb's signalling, his potential PR lurking, and his weak pushes on Oka may have got him killed.

[Moongrass]

Thank you both. So, given that they did know that there was a traitor, then it justifies the argument that rb was signalling as he would think that his team were looking out for him. I think this heavily implicates you, mbaki.

[Moongrass]

@Mbaki: could you please explain the DDL scum situation a little better so I can narrow my search?

I don't get what you're asking.

I'm asking you to kindly elaborate on your DDL scumread, as you skipped over that part in the post I referenced; Or, if it's convenient, you could point to the parts in DDL's ISO that are particularly scummy, and which you think require further investigation.

[Moongrass]

I've walked this road before...

Moongrass why is varsoon town?

Varsoon isn't towny enough to be scum who made it this far, if that makes sense. I have more ideas about why the current players are here, however I need to complete more pieces to make the argument convincing.

Are we under time pressure?

[Moongrass]

Ah, that's unfortunate. Hopefully it will make more sense when I better explain myself.

[Moongrass]

Nice, that's plenty of time.

VOTE: mbaki

I'd like mbaki's scumread on DDL explained, please.

@Oka: aside from Varsoon, do you have any other scumreads? Could you also talk about why you tunnelled mbaki for the entirety of D2, yet voted BEF in your Day 3 entrance?

@Varsoon: I wouldn't mind some extra pressure on mbaki if you would be so obliging.

[Moongrass]

VOTE: Mbaki

I still think it's one of Creature/Oka with my chips on Creature but I'll follow.

Are you scumreading them because they voted you, or?

[Moongrass]

@mbaki: I forgot rb flipped scum--there's likely just 2 alive.
Still think we should Mass claim today.

@Oka, do you think that Varsoon fabricated this townslip?

[Moongrass]

@mbaki: how am I throwing my slot in the 'shitter' exactly?

[Moongrass]

hey moongrass, how much of this game have you read?

I'm partway through Day 3.

[Moongrass]

@mbaki: AtE is a tunnel trigger point for me, but let's break down the logic behind your whining.

When you said I was putting my slot in the "shitter," this insinuated that I was going to be scumread. If you meant that I'd be on your shitlist, then I don't really care, or see how that's relevant?

Sadly, I have noticed a pattern over the duration of this game. Anytime someone has stated a scumread on you, you have resorted to attacking the competency of the player, and then the town at large.

This toneshit was particularly obvious when you started "buddying" me, in what I've interpreted to be an attempt at misdirection. You were asking for my help to look into other slots, yet when I started asking about the traitor crumb, and your scumread, your attitude did a 180.

You have no standing from which to attack the competency of other players, when you've been part of the problem that lead the game to this state, and also, when you clearly can't control your own emotions enough to play rationally. This type of behaviour is not conducive to a winning town atmosphere.

If you are town, I ask that you put this whining aside and help me find actual scum.

[Moongrass]

Lol. To each their own.

I'm going to lock in both Varsoon, and KMD as town. Don't ask me to justify my townreads, TIA.

InB4 Oka asks how much I've read - I'm still working on it.

[Moongrass]

Villa: Varsoon, Kmd4390, Creature
Limbo: DrDolittle
Wolf: mbaki, OkaPoka

DrDoLittle subs into scum, if either of the bottom two flip town.

Fun fact: scum players familiar with Creature's meta on MS would never leave him alive.

I think that's all I'll be reading for now, since I'm pretty happy with these reads.

[Moongrass]

I'd be most comfortable with a Creature lynch still, yes.

Varsoon, it blows my mind that you think Creature is scum here. There is virtually no chance that Creature is scum, based on meta and play. He is basically an IC when it comes to late game.

I agree that there is one scum in the ascetic, and commuter claims. It is not the commuter.

I agree that there is one scum in the VTs. It is mbaki or DDL. Based on tone and play - I'm leaning mbaki.

I'm certainly not consuming any of the WIFOM mbaki is selling. I'm so sure of my townreads that there is no other solution possible except Oka and mbaki; with a slim chance of DDL.

If you would like to lynch Oka instead I could compromise by lynching there, but for the love of god, do not allow mbaki to live tomorrow.

[Moongrass]

It says something that rather than push for an Oka lynch, which mbaki has said is a preferred lynch for him today; that mbaki chooses to feel sorry for himself.

[Moongrass]

Or maybe you're Wisdom?

@Creature: how do you feel about an mbaki or Oka lynch today?

[Moongrass]

Please stop talking about me Moongrass. I don't want to get insulty and I am the lynch today, you got your wish.

I'm doing what town should do. I'm pushing for a winning lynch chain, if that means diffusing any of the confusion you're throwing into the game and discussing where you're going wrong, then that is what I'll do. Insult away, I'm not here to please you, I'm here to win.

How can {DDL, Oka} be your solve if you question whether Oka is town?

[Moongrass]

This is some Amrock level scum complaining tbh.

[Moongrass]

Or maybe you're Wisdom?

@Creature: how do you feel about an mbaki or Oka lynch today?

[Moongrass]

I'll wait for DDL to post his catch up. After that, we can look at the better lynch between the two.

[Moongrass]

Because I am not 100% confident in my reads because I'm not a delusional jackass?

You're 100% confident in DDL though, and you won't explain why. Maybe you're a sane jackass.

[Moongrass]

There is no way you can seriously think this counts as trying to have a discussion with me. The post isn't even directed at me, it refers to me indirectly, implying that it is talking about me rather than to me.

That is not an example of me trying to communicate with you. There are examples where you've chosen self-destruction over discussion.

This is an example of me trying to spark a discussion with the town.

[Moongrass]

Apparently trying to guess who mbaki is is more interesting than the actual game.

Mbaki is Mbaki.

[Moongrass]

Well, my plan for the day was to lurk and find who I think the last scum is because I think I'm probably dying next. I haven't cleared anybody including Dannflor for ~paranoia~.

That said, because there's a hammer my reads are about this:
Dannflor / Creature*
Varsoon / Oka / Suka
DDL
Kmd

and please don't get unmotivated if we don't lynch right first try, 1 scum to a lot of townies is bad odds and I've seen towns drop games due to apathy that comes with a big early lead.

I WAS waiting, but since the days done:
Kmd, why am I and Suka likely scum to you? Talking about Suka being an odd pick for a Fish partner, and you are now the only player scumreading me I believe.
That leads to Oka, what made you change your mind on my slot?

DDL and Varsoon, you have both done little which makes your jabs at each other amusing to me. Varsoon and Creature, what is overtly scummy about DDL? Why have you been tunneled on bum since day 1?

im feeling better about kmd as town.

mbaki's 2008 pings me in a really bad way

This pings me in a bad way, and that's not snark my friend.

feeling real good about dann flipping scum if bef is red.

"He wants us to come to the conclusion that Nero was killed because he was "opposition" to a BEF mislynch, but he can't come out and say it himself"

this seems like something taken directly out of the scum thread

Dann has done more analysis than his scum game looks to be capable of, but he is less eye blindingly obvious town than he was in our last game. I've also kind of had a pet theory that Dann townread me as strong as he did on entrance to pocket me. Of course, the flip side of this is he's just a good player and had some correct reads which is town indicative. He even defended Vorkuta a bit and pushed a Fish lynch yesterday if I recall.

I agree him being scum is a possibility, but I believe this is out of his range is the point of this post. I don't agree with the scum thread stuff, that's not really how people play.

There is 100% 2 scum left. Also, this game sucks.

VOTE: DDL

@mbaki: This is all I could find which could be seen as relevant to your DDL scumread. I still don't understand your reasons, or why you would be more confident in this read than any other reads you have.

[Moongrass]

Ok, thank you mbaki.

Since most of us are scumreading Oka, it makes sense to lynch there to relieve some pressure. I will not be alive tomorrow, but I believe it would be in town's best interest to lynch in DDL, and mbaki, who are almost certainly SvT. Both of these players had strange connections with the flipped traitor RC; mbaki's implications were worse imo.

If one flips town, lynch the other. Simple.

I know that towns do not listen to reads from the dead, but you should listen now.

VOTE: OkaPoka

[Moongrass]

It won't be LyLo. Oka's claim is a scumclaim.

[Moongrass]

Nah, more incriminating is his behavior around the mass claim. Suka, a follower, claimed she had a result on Oka before Oka claimed ascetic. Oka also pushed against mass-claim without any real role that could justify resisting mass-claim.

We could also look from the perspective of wagon resistance; multiple people are OK with lynching Oka, and Oka still hasn't reached L-1.

This is much stronger evidence than trying to meta the mod.

[Moongrass]

@OkaPoka: I know you're better than this.

[Moongrass]

You need to explain your townread on varsoon or I cant play bro

I have already provided you with what I believe to be a townslip. When we consider all the players that are here, well mbaki said it better:

I think you are on bath salts or something if you think you'd ever be a night kill candidate for anybody this game.

It appears that Varsoon is the perfect player for scum to leave until late game.

His tone, lack of self-awareness, and claim, tell me he's town.

[Moongrass]

@OkaPoka: isn't your philosophy to policy lynch lurkers, and hard to read slots early game?

[Moongrass]

Yes

Well, look around. We've somehow managed to end up with the majority being lurker slots, and you've not advocated lynching them, or attempted to push them prior to late game.

This is exactly the set-up that scum!Oka creates. No? Or, has your town game deteriorated lately?

[Moongrass]

@Oka: A case is good. I'll read it.

[Moongrass]

Moongrass, completely in isolation what's your Kmd read? Like, if you remove your reads on myself and DDL, is he still town? I'm just covering all bases here.

Yes. His insights into both Vorkuta and my slot do not come from a scum mindset.

[Moongrass]

In Oka's defense, most slots in this game have been useless, either for most of the game or at one point or another.

Why are you defending Oka? Why do you scumread Oka?

[Moongrass]

It would benefit town to think from a scum mindset at this stage of the game.

With two scum left, they are undoubtedly preparing for LyLo tomorrow. They must instill paranoia, whilst distancing from each other, in order to achieve a swift victory.

This is why resistance to an Oka lynch, and DDL vs mbaki, is concerning.

Varsoon clearly has no team. Creature is Creature. Kmd doesn't look to be setting up for anything.

Oka, DDL, and mbaki, on the otherhand are all distancing, while soft pushing each other.

The scumteam HAS to be within these three.

[Moongrass]

Kmd doesn't look to be doing anything.

FTFY

Creature, you need to stop being blind to kmd, and Varsoon being town. Have a think about why you're here, and who you've been sheeping.

[Moongrass]

I am definitely not soft pushing DDL. Oka, sure.

You aren't particularly concerned with being convincing enough to get him lynched. I consider that soft pushing.

[Moongrass]

Why do you scumread Oka?

@mbaki.

[Moongrass]

you need to stop being blind to kmd

Do you have meta this is town!Kmd and couldn't be scum!Kmd? Don't need to say how.

I have town kmd meta, nothing to compare it to. If you read his ISO, and look at some of his stances, you should see two things:

1. He is not aligned with the traitor, nor does he make sense as a scumbuddy to anyone here.

2. He pushes players, and then gives hard stances that are based on logic I don't see coming from scum.

[Moongrass]

I am definitely not soft pushing DDL. Oka, sure.

You aren't particularly concerned with being convincing enough to get him lynched. I consider that soft pushing.

Are you kidding? Read the thread before you subbed in. I even got the fucking votes, your slot and then Varsoon joined me, Kmd unvoted me to reconsider, and Creature expressed intent as well.

That does seem like a joke in comparison to your nihilistic attitude when I asked for your cooperation. If you are so sure he is scum, why were you ready to potentially game throw by being stubborn towards someone you supposedly townread?

[Moongrass]

The first is hilariously assumptive, and the second he does as scum too. A lot. His town and scum games are very similar. I don't really want to go down this rabbit hole because I don't really think he's scum, though.

Why do you feel the need to continue to discredit my reads for no purpose?

You are far too manipulative of the game state, and your tone shifts are ridiculous. We lose with you here, town or scum.

VOTE: mbaki

[Moongrass]

To progress on my scum traitor crumb theory, where I've already logically deduced that the normal traitor would very likely have crumbed.

There are only two players remaining who could have been crumbed to:

wow im always serious imo

mbaki confirmed scum

friendly reminder that drdolittle is scum

The progression on both of these from rb, as discussed earlier, points strongly to mbaki, but could also be WIFOM for DDL.

i'd lynch like 5 other people before mbaki at this point, even though i think Nero is right his play isn't great i don't think the bar is very high right now

i'd lynch like 5 other people before mbaki at this point, even though i think Nero is right his play isn't great i don't think the bar is very high right now

Who are these 5 mystery scummers?

yyotta
DDL
brighteyedfish
leodanny
vorkuta

if we're lynching for 'fluff content' or lack of content i think these are all more likely to flip scum than mbaki

Remember this. The traitor very likely crumbed, there is no doubt at least one of these two are scum, if not both.

[Moongrass]

And I'm done for today.

I'll be back around deadline. Be wary of players trying to instill paranoia, they have to in order to survive as scum. Good luck.

[Moongrass]

@DDL: could you give a ranked list of your reads? It would also help to explain why your solve includes Oka, and yet you do not think that he is the optimal lynch?

I've reread a few parts of the game, and I can see a possible scum Creature. I can't shake the almost palpable desperation of Oka trying to rush through today though. (@Oka: I have read your cases...something something pie)

Can you talk about how you 180'd on your reads SOD?

[Moongrass]

@DDL:

Pro-tip: select, or highlight the part of a quote you want to respond to and hit the quote button.

[Moongrass]

Intent

[Moongrass]

To hammer.

[Moongrass]

Intent to what?

What other kind of intent would there be?

[Moongrass]

@Varsoon: why did you unvote?

[Moongrass]

What's SOD? If you are saying how you dont have doubts on your reads you're delusional.

Welcome back

SOD = Start Of Day. I'm asking what thought process occurred that made you decide to 180 your reads?

[Moongrass]

Why I 180 at start of Day 3 is because Dann got lynched, I scumread him so I had to reevaluate my reads. I recalled I didnt like mbaki eod post so I focused there. And continuing reading, I didnt like what i saw further. My read on Oka was contingent on BEF flipping town. I think I iterated, only sxum doesnt want the neop investig.
X
Tbh I'm really confused at this last minute wagon on me. So pls give some context

Great. Which EOD post pinged you about mbaki?

[Moongrass]

VOTE: OkaPoka

Why?

[Moongrass]

@Creature: why now?

[Moongrass]

Interesting. I enter this game with the majority scum reading Oka, yet I encountered a lot of resistance; notably from Creature.

Varsoon was happily sheeping me between Oka and mbaki, though DDL, for some reason, triggered hesitation for him. Creature jumps off DDL, onto Oka, after demonstrating earlier that he didn't care who was lynched, and is now suggesting a 1v1 with Oka is the only way he sees town going forward.

Something strange is going on between Varsoon and Creature's resistance timing. I'm fairly certain Varsoon is town lacking confidence because of his claim.

Creature could possibly be teamed with mbaki because of his resistance there too - though I agree that mbaki/DDL needs to be resolved.

I'm struggling to accept that Creature could have changed his meta this much because realistically, that's the only thing really giving him town credence.

[Moongrass]

I still think mbaki is town, but it seems like we're going to mislynch her anyway

Does it? Why does it look like we're going to mislynch mbaki, and not DDL, who was at L-1 when you jumped off?

[Moongrass]

@creature: if you believe we're mislynching mbaki, then what is the point of you voting Oka, when your logic is saying he is not the lynch?

This stinks of self-preservation and distancing.

[Moongrass]

Stop dodging the question. Why are you voting Oka and why now? Do you actually want us to lynch him, or are trying to avoid a mislynch wagon?

[Moongrass]

I thought so.

VOTE: Creature

Buddy is either Oka, or mbaki. Congratulations Varsoon, you get the lynch you wanted.

[Moongrass]

My hope is that Oka will flip scum so I will be cleared.

Your voting behaviour says he's your buddy. Both roles could be bs, which I can see, and which you may have slipped when you said you thought both scum were VT claims.

Your x-shot role doesn't make sense with the UB. Oka's role doesn't make sense full stop. Oka wouldn't leave Suka alone about whether or not she was x-shot. You defended my push on Oka by asking me to prove his role didn't make sense.

You don't believe for a second that Oka will be lynched, therefore, your only reason to vote him is to either avoid a mislynch, or to distance. I think it's both as you somehow believe that by voting Oka it will clear either of you.

[Moongrass]

This stinks of self-preservation and distancing.

Sure, I'm trying to bus my buddy to preserve myself instead of just sticking with DDL.

You know he won't be lynched. A vote isn't enough. Tell us why we should vote Oka?

[Moongrass]

Also, why tf would Oka fakeclaim ascetic if Suka hinted targeting Oka?

Really? Wow imo.

[Moongrass]

This stinks of self-preservation and distancing.

Sure, I'm trying to bus my buddy to preserve myself instead of just sticking with DDL.

You know he won't be lynched. A vote isn't enough. Tell us why we should vote Oka?

Huh? DDL has almost been lynched twice, you yourself gave intent.

What are you asking?

[Moongrass]

This stinks of self-preservation and distancing.

Sure, I'm trying to bus my buddy to preserve myself instead of just sticking with DDL.

You know he won't be lynched. A vote isn't enough.

Then how is it self-preservation if my vote won't do nothing? If it was self-preservation I would try something that may actually succeed?

You mean like not outting yourself on a mislynch wagon?

[Moongrass]

Is "you know he won't be lynched" not referring to Creature's hypothetical bus vote on DDL?

No, I'm referring to Oka.

[Moongrass]

I don't think the ascetic was a fake claim
I think the town part might be but not the ascetic part.

Yes, that's what I meant.

Oh.

Oka and Creature could both be a team, I guess, though an odd setup choice. But I feel like this post count is well out of Creature's scum range? He has had relatively good reads, though I believe he said himself he normally busses as scum so that would make sense.

I read somewhere that the scum!creature lurking meta is getting outdated. It's why I reviewed his play. It also better explains why Creature is still alive in comparison to my 'two unaware scum' theory.

[Moongrass]

Creature's "good reads" also show a few TMI slips imo. I'll bring them up if people request it. I'm phone posting atm.

[Moongrass]

Vork flip needs to be the flip today

Are you ready for a townflip?

Why not explain why he's a town flip?

Wasn't someone complaining I was defending him the last few pages?

1373 I meant more "what if Vork is a townflip?"

because it seems like we'll start the next day from the scratch (or push another mislynch bait like mbaki through an obviously non-crumb) if Vork turns out to be town

I just pointed out what alternatively could also be partner crumb, why am I wrong?

because it comes later in the grand scheme of things.

if im traitor, im crumbing early to make first impressions.

context wise it also doesn't make as much sense to be a crumb.

No, mbaki. I still think you and DDL are SvT. I'm pushing Creature to figure out his buddy if you'll give me a hot minute. I'll review properly towards day end.

[Moongrass]

Ignore the quotes. Phone digging sucks.

[Moongrass]

Yes it is what I'm pushing with, however because you keep interjecting it's obscuring my read of our interaction. Anyway I think the interaction is over now so leave any relevant questions here for me to look into while I debrief and do more digging.

[Moongrass]

@Mbaki, why do you get frustrated about being mislynched if you hate this game so much?

[Moongrass]

Tomorrow is going to be basically boiled down to "should we believe there are both town commuter and town ascetic? should we trust varsoon's list? should we just lynch ddl like we were doing yesterday?"

This doesn't explain why you're voting for someone you don't believe will be lynched near deadline; especially when you were sitting on a wagon that I gave intent on.

[Moongrass]

Varsoon's 2nd scumread is Oka and I'm trying to articulate with him.

Why wasn't this an issue around the time Varsoon was pushing for your lynch after mass-claim? You've had, pretty much, the whole time I've been here to push Oka for his claim, or to articulate with Varsoon.

[Moongrass]

@Varsoon: what are your thoughts on Creature?

[Moongrass]

I love the Creature/Varsoon articulating going on. It's almost like they're communicating telepathically with the amount of nothing that I'm seeing.

[Moongrass]

@DDL: I noticed that post too, along with others. I suppose mbaki could be confident enough to openwolf through the whole game. I don't see how mbaki misses that crumb though. I have a hilarious scenario in my head where the scum team don't understand normal games, and they targeted the traitor to recruit them. I'm pretty sure the mod would have intervened to clarify, or it would have been stipulated in the role PM.

[Moongrass]

I don't buy that Oka/mbaki can't be buddies. Oka posts a lot, and often with his team. mbaki omguses you SOD as an excuse not to vote anyone else. Oka tunnels Varsoon for similar reasons. I can see it, and I'm pretty sure Oka is using his case being rejected to cover his frozen behavior at this stage.

[Moongrass]

moongrass you do see that varsoon is relatively likely town due to his claim and role, right. do you think oka's resistance to this idea is scum-death-tunnel or town-oka being dense?

This isn't town Oka. Town!Oka isn't dense, nor very confident in his reads.

[Moongrass]

moongrass you do see that varsoon is relatively likely town due to his claim and role, right. do you think oka's resistance to this idea is scum-death-tunnel or town-oka being dense?

This isn't town Oka. Town!Oka isn't dense, nor very confident in his reads.

[citation needed]

xx

[Moongrass]

I don't think our day 2 interactions can be scum vs scum

Why?

[Moongrass]

@Moongrass, Oka looks pretty similar ish to this game there? As in, I don't see a huge lack of confidence that would be a giveaway. I gave it a quick skim though, I might read it a bit more in depth if I have time.

I read through. I think the quality of his push on nancy was much higher, and convincing than his push here. Here it looks like theatrics.

@Oka: why are you insisting on continuing to vanity vote? Best way to form consensus is to talk about the current feasible wagons.

Aside from you, and possibly kmd, noone is interested in a Varsoon wagon.

Please, share some current thoughts on Creature or mbaki or DDL?

[Moongrass]

creature is town by PoE because its Varsoon + mbaki/DDL i think

You think that Varsoon was happy sheeping me onto his buddy? Which one is more likely?

[Moongrass]

VC 1.FINAL

votes

[7] YyottaCat

:

Kmd4390

23,

mbaki

863, Nero Cain 919, Vorkuta 923,

Creature

924, Suka 935,

OkaPoka

938

[4] DrDolittle

:

Leodanny 107,

Varsoon

370, BrightEyedFish 782, YyottaCat 884

[1] BrightEyedFish

:

DrDolittle

798

[1] Vorkuta

:

rb 583

[0] Not Voting

:

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch

The Day 1 deadline is in

: (expired on 2018-12-21 12:00:59)

Mod Notes

: Hope you're having fun!

A lynch has been achieved!

VC 2.FINAL

votes

[6] Vorkuta

:

mbaki

1104, BrightEyedFish 1122,

OkaPoka

1269, Dannflor 1722,

Creature

1816, Nero Cain 1820

[2] BrightEyedFish

:

Suka 1168,

DrDolittle

1793

[1] mbaki

:

Vorkuta 1119

[1]DrDolittle

:

Varsoon

1257

[1] Suka

:

Kmd4390

1260

[0] Not Voting

:

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch

The Day 2 deadline is in

: (expired on 2019-01-04 14:37:59)

Mod Notes

: Hope you're having fun!

Nero Cain was killed. He was a

Town Voyeur

.

Spoiler:

Mini Normal 2046

Welcome, Nero Cain. You are a

Town Voyeur

.

Abilities:

Each night you may target a player to visit them. If successful, you will learn what type of action, if any, was performed on that player that night.
Possible types of action are: {Blocking, Jailkeeping, Protection, Miscellaneous, Killing, Role Investigation, Action Investigation, No Action, No Result}

Win condition:

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.

The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this with your role name and alignment.

VC 3.FINAL

votes

[5] BrightEyedFish

:

Kmd4390

1836,

OkaPoka

1865, Dannflor 2002,

Varsoon

2005, Suka 2007

[1] OkaPoka

:

Creature

1889

[1] Dannflor

:

BrightEyedFish 1833

[2] Not Voting

:

mbaki

,

DrDolittle

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

The Day 3 deadline is in

: (expired on 2019-01-16 02:37:59)

Mod Notes

:

Dannflor was killed. He was a

Vanilla Townie

.

Spoiler:

Mini Normal 2046

Welcome, Dannflor. You are a

Vanilla Townie

.

Abilities:

You have no special abilities. Your vote is your weapon.

Win condition:

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.

The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this with your role name and alignment.

[Moongrass]

u left out the part where immediately after i posted intent he went over to creature

Ok, riddle me this..

How does Varsoon, who you forced to claim 3rd, and under pressure from Suka, end up claiming something that makes complete sense with results?

Part of your case is focussed on his claim being fake, but he didn't hesitate, and claimed something that added up. You're being intentionally obtuse to the point that he's basically confirmed town when I get killed tonight.

Creature says that Varsoon can verify his claim...but Varsoon has already checked him...and how does Voyeur clear him if he has already been checked by Varsoon?

Stop being silly.

[Moongrass]

am i high?

i explained why his claim order didnt make sense as a voyeur

I hope you're high, or scum.

No you didn't, not one that made sense anyway. Besides, it being mechanically pseudo-cleared by my actions should tell you who has the the stronger PoV. If you townread me, you need to pull your head out of the sand.

[Moongrass]

i tr u but the u arent making sense to me

why aren't we resolving one in mbaki/ddl today?

I'll break it down for you.

Suka claimed a follower result on Varsoon.
Varsoon claimed a result on Creature.
Suka voted Varsoon because he claimed to have a result.
Varsoon claimed UB inheriting Voyeur
Suka unvoted Varsoon because that claim is consistent with the result.

The only world where this claim would be fabricated, would be in the scenario of a Varsoon/Creature team, for the high risk/low return of being able to go last in the claim order and creating permanent distance until end game. Varsoon now has to give results consistent with his claim and the results of other PRs.

It. Doesn't. Make. Sense. As a scum gambit.

[Moongrass]

why creature over one in ddl/mbaki?

Because of his disingenuous voting pattern, and x-shot claim.

I think there is higher scum equity in the Oka/Creature problem. DDL/mbaki can wait until the bad claims are resolved.

I'm still really liking an Oka/mbaki team. But that may need to wait because Creature will be too deep at Lylo.

[Moongrass]

DDL and mbaki have both reached L-1 today no problem. You and Creature on the other hand seem to have inexplicable resistance going on around your wagons.

[Moongrass]

@Oka: which is preferable for you out of DDL/mbaki?

[Moongrass]

which indicates?

That scum doesn't care about lynching either mbaki or DDL.

[Moongrass]

i dont see how that is relevant to alignment sorting or even accurate?

It's not really relevant today.

Ok. So, self-voting is the scummiest thing you can find aside from Varsoon?

[Moongrass]

Then have reads that make sense so we don't lose? You've been on every mislynch.

[Moongrass]

GF asleep on my right arm so no lengthy left hand mobile post.

You know you play too much mafia when you have to reread this sentence 3 times before it says Girlfriend instead of GodFather.

[Moongrass]

At night I want creature to commute and varsoon to verify. If inconsistent, lynch Creature then Varsoon for solve. If consistent, I'm more likely to push Oka I think.

DDL, if Varsoon is a Voyeur, then he only sees actions performed on his target. Not the action the target took...and even then, Creature is a commuter, nothing can target him when he uses the action.

This is why at least one of Creature/Oka must be scum as these roles seem strange with a Voyeur, or Follower. Town is weak enough with a UB/Voyeur/Follower, so a role like ascetic would only serve to weaken town further. On the other hand it would have positive utility as a goon modifier against what I think are the 3 true town PRs. I think commuter is more likely to be town, however the x-shot doesn't line up with the UB.

[Moongrass]

Moon - Follower
Varsoon - Universal backup --> Voyeur
Creature - 2-shot Commuter
Oka - ascetic
Kmd - VT
Mbaki - VT
DDL - VT

Creature thinks that both scum are in the VTs. We've had 4 VTs and our Voyeur die so far.

Assuming 3 scum - 3 PRs make sense no?

@Varsoon: you have solid modding experience, what do you think?

[Moongrass]

DDL, if Varsoon is a Voyeur, then he only sees actions performed on his target. Not the action the target took...and even then, Creature is a commuter, nothing can target him when he uses the action.

yeah I wonder whether creature is even commuter. Scum-commuter makes little sense imo
so I want to see whether varsoon gets a no result

Varsoon would only get a result if someone else targeted Creature. I will be dead and the only other claimed PR is ascetic. If either PR were lying, they wouldn't use an action on Creature, because Varsoon is targeting him.

[Moongrass]

What would that prove though?

[Moongrass]

no actioon vs no result is different.

Yes, but if Varsoon checks Creature when he's not commuting, then what is he really checking? But, I think I get it. Varsoon can't target Creature when he's commuting, so he'll get "no-result" instead of "no action performed," or something.

@Varsoon: will you target creature tonight?

[Moongrass]

@DDL: why mbaki over Oka?

[Moongrass]

Thought we were lynching Creature today.

But yeah if we hit scum today then I'll check Creature because then I should get no result and there should be a kill.
Scum'll have to kill you since you're follower and would clear someone as town to hit them so Creature can't gambit on a no-kill and only commute if he's scum.
So I'd be aight with that but we really need to hit scum.

I'm not sure what you mean. Why would Creature do the killing if there's two scum left? Why would a commuter be scum in this set-up?

[Moongrass]

UNVOTE: I'll be away for a bit.

DDL, why not Oka?

[Moongrass]

PHASE DEADLINE: 0 days, 12 hours, 33 minutes

Hi, who's here?

It's unfortunate that kmd can't be more active at this point of the game, which makes him a liability going into tomorrow.

I've given town multiple perspectives from which to look at the game: Traitor buddy, late game scum positioning, possible teams, VCA/NKA (I haven't given my thoughts, but I've posted the information for players to analyze), mass-claim and set-up spec. I've also pushed mbaki, oka, and Creature, if there are tone/intention readers here.

Because I won't be here, I want to let town decide today who it is they are lynching. I'm fine voting with consensus.

[Moongrass]

Given that Varsoon, Creature, and Oka are connected in terms of claims and game balance, it makes sense to allow you to attempt to resolve your actions overnight. One scenario to be wary of, is if there is a scum RB. A scum RB will muddy the waters of any results.

I can see mbaki being scum, however I've grown fond of them as AtE is a weakness of mine. I can see possibly DDL/kmd being scum if mbaki happens to flip town. In that scenario it makes sense to lynch DDL, after questionning kmd, as I still can see DDL/mbaki being SvT or SvS.

Currently I'm townreading: Everyone except the people I pushed today. I would like to lynch Oka because he could be buddies with most people here, but I think mbaki would possibly give us more information for Lylo, should either of them flip town.

Mbaki/Oka
Creature/Oka
DDL/Oka
Mbaki/DDL
DDL/Creature

Are the possible teams I'm seeing. I could be wrong with kmd essentially being a wildcard with little info, although a scum mbaki flip clears him imo.

I am leaning towards voting mbaki.

What do you think Varsoon?

[Moongrass]

[x Zquote="In post 3031, Moongrass"]Mbaki/Oka
Creature/Oka
DDL/Oka
Mbaki/DDL
DDL/Creature

Are the possible teams I'm seeing.

I can't be scum with mbaki?[/quote]

Possibly - Imbaki preemptively defending their interactions with you, seems a little too obvious. Why do you ask?

[Moongrass]

Hi, who's here?

Me. What do you think of mbaki looking into varsoon's role to clear him? What about drdoolittle's comment about a smoking gun that varsoon is town?

Can you quote these please?

Who are you scumreading, kmd?

[Moongrass]

Why do you ask?

Thought you listed the only possible teams.

No, I'm not a scumhunting god, I'm just listing who I can see as likely based on what I've observed today (missing interactions with knd). At the end of the day, it's up to the town to accept/reject my ideas based on their own opinions.

[Moongrass]

I want Kmd to list his reads before we end the day.

[Moongrass]

Mbaki is probably my strongest scum read and the above is the only thing holding me back although it makes some sense if Varsoon is also scum. I can also see Drdoolittle.

Ok. Could you please rank everyone here from towniest to scummiest?

[Moongrass]

Moon
Creature
Oka
Varsoon
Drdoolittle
Mbaki

Kmd's reads make me wonder if. DDL/mbaki is TvT.

[Moongrass]

VOTE: OkaPoka

[Moongrass]

Dann and others scum read him hard.

They scum read you pretty hard too. I think DDL is townier than you simply for the fact that they were willing to lynch you even if it meant they would be lynched too. They were also willing to confirm creature, and haven't tried to manipulate the game state at all.

[Moongrass]

The reason I am voting Oka and not mbaki, is on the chance kmd/oka are a team. If that is true, then town looks pretty lost tomorrow if mbaki flips town.

Both Oka/Kmd are pushing the DDL/mbaki lynch without stating how one flipping would impact on their reads.

[Moongrass]

Why can't he be scum with mbaki or drdoolittle?

The only person he makes sense as scum with is Creature based on role claims, though that's unlikely as he's been tunneling Creature since mass-claim. If Varsoon is scum his claim is brilliant. I'm willing to bet money he isn't scum.

I've talked about this earlier.

[Moongrass]

Preview edit: mbaki has pushed drdoolittle hard enough that they probably aren't scum together. I don't usually worry about associative tells until after the flip but if mbaki were to flip town, I'd probably vote drdoolittle. If he were to flip scum, I'd either vote Varsoon or re-evaluate oka and creature to see if one of them makes sense as scum.

If anyone flips town today then we are at Lylo tomorrow. You can't afford to lynch people to make associatives at this point.

I'm fairly certain DDL is town. Varsoon is a bad vote, and Creature will be checked tomorrow for his commuter claim.

[Moongrass]

I rather lynch Suka or Mbaki. I'd compromise on DDL though.

VOTE: Nero Cain

u wanna talk about this supposed scum read on me?

Oh sorry I must be misreading DDL as mbaki.

[Moongrass]

@mbaki: You're very aware of how people perceived you. I think it says something that people who suspected you were lynched and people who townread you were NK'd.

How is how people perceive you even an argument for your alignment? If people were town reading you then why would scum leave you alive?

You've not considered DDL being town once and you only turned on him once he voted you SOD. This is in line with other people suspecting you getting lynched.

Offering WIFOM as a means to townread you over another is silly and illogical.

[Moongrass]

Creature or Kmd scum probably win here but I don't think that's avoidable.

...it's avoidable if you pull your head out of your butt and discuss the other viable wagon for today.

You can't tantrum every time I try to show you where you're going wrong on your DDL tunnel. The fact that you can't even vote Oka to save yourself speaks volumes.

[Moongrass]

Of course you ninja me with the vote.

[Moongrass]

i tr u but the u arent making sense to me

why aren't we resolving one in mbaki/ddl today?

I'll break it down for you.

Suka claimed a follower result on Varsoon.
Varsoon claimed a result on Creature.
Suka voted Varsoon because he claimed to have a result.
Varsoon claimed UB inheriting Voyeur
Suka unvoted Varsoon because that claim is consistent with the result.

The only world where this claim would be fabricated, would be in the scenario of a Varsoon/Creature team, for the high risk/low return of being able to go last in the claim order and creating permanent distance until end game. Varsoon now has to give results consistent with his claim and the results of other PRs.

It. Doesn't. Make. Sense. As a scum gambit.

Moon - Follower
Varsoon - Universal backup --> Voyeur
Creature - 2-shot Commuter
Oka - ascetic
Kmd - VT
Mbaki - VT
DDL - VT

Creature thinks that both scum are in the VTs. We've had 4 VTs and our Voyeur die so far.

Assuming 3 scum - 3 PRs make sense no?

@Varsoon: you have solid modding experience, what do you think?

[Moongrass]

at least one of Creature/Oka must be scum as these roles seem strange with a Voyeur, or Follower. Town is weak enough with a UB/Voyeur/Follower, so a role like ascetic would only serve to weaken town further. On the other hand it would have positive utility as a goon modifier against what I think are the 3 true town PRs. I think commuter is more likely to be town, however the x-shot doesn't line up with the UB.

[Moongrass]

I don't think DDL is scum. Kmd is a maybe and that's why I'm willing to vote Oka because they both seem to be pushing for the loss if mbaki/DDL are the TvT.

Mbaki I don't see why you feel the need to implicate people whenever they are being suspected or you're at L-1. It's a very strange thing to do as town. You're either scum, or town who needs to be more aware of how much confusion you pump out late game.

[Moongrass]

I guess I do have one more thing to add: I did not vote Creature or Varsoon today when the wagons presented themselves. Meh. I don't think that means much anyways, don't really know why I'm typing it

What is this?

[Moongrass]

Why didn't you go for either of them in lieu of omgus voting DDL?

[Moongrass]

@mbaki^

@kmd: my strongest team is still oka/mbaki. We can't really go wrong either way but if you voted Oka I'd probably be less paranoid and so would town tomorrow at Lylo.

[Moongrass]

I still don't see scum DDL.

Yes I'm an alt. I think NSG and Oka have already figured out who I am.

[Moongrass]

I'd rather not spend time clogging up the thread arguing surface level scum tells. If you and DDL 1v1 tomorrow that's your prerogative.

[Moongrass]

prepping for Oka's town flip in this hypothetical scum Creature scenario?

If I think the team is you and Varsoon, who do you think I am more likely to hammer between you and Oka?

I told you your vote on Oka was bs lol.

[Moongrass]

there's little way scum gets a UB

What if his UB claim is actually fake?

His reactions to BEF's claim, suka's vote, and your claim say it's not fake at all.

You need to discredit him if your role is fake.

[Moongrass]

How my claim makes his claim more believable though?

What are you asking? His role works well with the existing weak town PRs. It doesn't need your role to exist to be credible.

[Moongrass]

I don't think he was expecting anything even remotely close to commuter when he claimed that.

You claimed before him?

[Moongrass]

If Oka flips town lynch Creature tomorrow. That should buy you another day.

[Moongrass]

I agree, though I thought that was already the plan.

Meanwhile, that doesn't give us space to sort out myself / DDL / Kmd.

You should have each day to sort yourselves. If Creature flips scum he could realistically be a buddy to any of you.

[Moongrass]

The VT claims that are town are never getting NK'd though. Maybe it makes more sense to sort us first...

It makes sense to lynch scum PR claims that imbalance the game before Lylo to buy you extra time if Oka flips town.

[Moongrass]

@Oka: do you think kmd or Creature are scum?

[Moongrass]

I don't understand how you people can't see that Varsoon isn't scum.

[Moongrass]

Moongrass is like a worse version of TTTT

I don't see the similarity.

[Moongrass]

I don't understand how you people can't see that Varsoon isn't scum.

Ahem.

There's 3 of them...how?

[Moongrass]

well there isnt 4 of us so it doesnt really matter lets get back to talking about how lynching me would be bad and lynching mbaki might be good

Oka, both you and Creature can't be town based on your claims. If we aren't lynching you then we lynch Creature.

[Moongrass]

So would it make sense to design a setup where universal backup can backup a negative utility (ascetic)?

Yes if both the ascetic and UB are scum, or they are SvT.

[Moongrass]

So Varsoon/Oka can't be both town?

I wouldn't consider that balanced if they were.

[Moongrass]

i honestly feel like my role is here to weaken strength of follower and rolecop

Why though? Follower and Voyeur are already weak. And even if that were the case, 2-shot commuter + acsetic weakens the investigative roles even further.

Not to mention the problems of x-shot with UB.

If Varsoon is scum and we're all town it seems imbalanced. No?

[Moongrass]

It's not a waste of time if we're trying to decide who is scum out of you and Creature?

[Moongrass]

I probably won't be here for deadline so good luck! Be rational.

Commuter is -utility for scum. It's more likely town but Creature, you and Varsoon don't make sense as the same alignment because of your x-shot.

Bye!

[Moongrass]

GG town.

Oh, mbaki was Eddie Cane..eh. I would not have guessed. I'm glad you managed to get out of your DDL tunnel.

also moongrass are u tttt

No.