Mini Normal 2058 (Endgame)

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Morality
Doesn't matter what he was before. My presence in this game has retroactively turned his role PM red.

[Something_Smart]

No, but it could have been wrong. I don't see any evidence that RCE targeted you other than that he scumread you.

Kind of annoyed he didn't think to crumb his target in the neighborhood right before the night ended.

[Something_Smart]

I don't know RCE well enough to say that he wouldn't try to out-WIFOM the scum and target someone he wasn't hard scumreading. Not to mention that you claimed ascetic...

Also Boon you seem to have completely overlooked the humor in my vote There was more than a grain of seriousness in it but it was not completely serious. (And I don't think I've tunneled anybody in two years.)

[Something_Smart]

WIFOM does matter. He might say to himself, "I've been pushing on Morality so long, if he's scum he probably wouldn't kill me" (false, btw)... he could also say "Morality is obvscum and will be lynched anyway and I should try to get a different scum."

I mean, we already know that RCE didn't play his role optimally. If he had, he would have made a hard crumb, ideally in the neighborhood.

[Something_Smart]

I’m confirmed Not Ascetic from yesterday, by the way.

U wot m8?

[Something_Smart]

I meant like a “you decided to tunnel” kind of action.

Why on earth would I do that

If anything I'd just randomly decide to locktown you because you know how badly I want to be town with you
That's kinda what I did in Room Odds

[Something_Smart]

A hard crumb in the neighborhood with scum in there would have been easy to spot probably

Yeah but it wouldn't matter if it came one minute before the end of the night.

[Something_Smart]

So, I was pretty sure Creature targeted me Night 1, which shows I’m not Ascetic.

Yeah it looks like he targeted you and got no result...

[Something_Smart]

I don’t like thinking that, because it makes me feel I’m being pocketed by SS

Boon please. I generally townread you in Room Odds (he was scum, for the uninformed) but the one thing that made me suspicious of you was your stupid paranoia. I let it slide because I'm sure you get paranoid as town too but I don't know if you get paranoid over dumb shit like this.

I have literally done nothing except joke about you being scum and argue that you're not confirmed town. All the townreads on my slot have been due to my predecessor. This comment is beyond useless...

[Something_Smart]

Because Cow is dead and Vedith(his slot) was high on Cow's scumlist.

By Cow do you mean Creature...?

[Something_Smart]

Have any of you played in a game where Smart replaced in and what is his replacing meta?

I replace into games when I'm bored and don't want to wait for a game to fill

What are you getting at here?

[Something_Smart]

hi SS long time no see

Sup. I'm going to pretend that your username refers to farming

[Something_Smart]

UNVOTE:
I should retract this because the vote was, at its core, a meme vote. I do scumread Boon but under normal circumstances I wouldn't have a vote down this early. It seems to be giving people misconceptions of how I feel about him.

[Something_Smart]

How is it beyond useless? I’ve been saying Shoshin is scum since the beginning of the game.

Because saying "Smart is pocketing me" implies it's something I am consciously doing, rather than something that I just replaced into. It makes a huge difference if you interact with me as though you might have an undeserved townread on next versus interacting with me as though I specifically might be snowing you. They're totally different.

[Something_Smart]

I have been part of a scum team where a scum member claimed Miller, however, and I backed it up eventually by claiming Cop.

Wow what kind of player would claim miller as scum and force his buddy to claim cop to save him. He sounds like a real idiot...

[Something_Smart]

How much of the game have you read SS

Last 20 pages or so and I think some random stuff in the middle.

[Something_Smart]

You’re stating you scum read me, and you voting me is giving people misconceptions what misconceptions are you giving off from that...?

That I'm confident in the read or that I definitely want to lynch you today, etc.

[Something_Smart]

Why does it have to be something that you are consciously doing rather than something that I am feeling?

I am feeling like I am potentially being pocketed, by no means of your actions. You in general is what pockets me.

Okay, that's bad phrasing on your part then. Pocketing is generally accepted to mean a scum player intentionally getting someone to townread them, so you shouldn't use that term if it's just a general townread.

[Something_Smart]

@Yellow, because I know it’s gonna come up anyways - We’re joking. Something Smart and I were the team that did that.

It was kind of a dumbass move but it's also an experience that everyone deserves as scum at least once.

[Something_Smart]

Hmm. Fair. Thoughts on the 2 remaining neighborhood players?

Johnnyslot and Tarkus? I don't remember much of them from what I've read.

It would be weird for a scum neighbor to kill off all the other neighbors, since iirc there was definitely suspicion going around of a second scum in the neighborhood.

[Something_Smart]

the modkill being unfair to the scum team.

The... what? How could that modkill have possibly been unfair to the scum? It cut off discussion, and it seemed like Dolittle was pretty townread.

[Something_Smart]

To be fair, Creature made it obvious he was a cop

He did?

and RCE was the biggest heavy player outside of the Boats/Morality/RC/Shoshin quad.

Doesn't mean he was a guaranteed kill. The scum still made the choice to kill him.

Also, I have no clue how the general consensus towards each other were in that neighborhood. Why do you assume it was friendly?

If anything I assumed the opposite. I said that people seemed to think there was a second scum in the neighborhood, in which case scum would want to keep as many neighbors alive as possible.

[Something_Smart]

I wanted to catch scumShoshin.

You picked the wrong game then because there ain't no scumShoshin here

[Something_Smart]

I mean you can use Bayes' law and get that my slot is likelier town than it was before the replacement. How much likelier would depend on your prior for Shoshin replacing out for a matter unrelated to the modkill, which I'd imagine would be a pretty low probability. So you can definitely say I'm reasonably likely town through math alone.

[Something_Smart]

Hey Dunn

We made this mistake together and we're going to regret it together

[Something_Smart]

Oh uh

I don't really like you or Morality

I think I like YellowSnow?

Still have somewhat of a feeling that the neighbors are town but I probably am not keyed in to the gamestate enough for that judgement.

[Something_Smart]

Well as a traitor you need to make sure they don't NK you...

[Something_Smart]

And if your buddies get lynched no matter how townread you are you still lose.

[Something_Smart]

I mean, I would hard bus my scum buddies and then get myself lynched and let them coast to endgame on the interactions, but that's just me having no faith in my scumgame

[Something_Smart]

Ank it would be great if you could give a general summary of what's been said in the neighborhood.

(Obviously, don't quote anything... )

[Something_Smart]

There’s some actual solid play by whoever is the scum out of RC/Shoshin.

[Something_Smart]

I was posting the chain of events as I recall it, not casing him But yes, I think that's scum indicative.

How do you figure

Not saying it's out of his scumrange but that bullshit is town-RC's bread and butter

[Something_Smart]

I can case RC if you want, he got subbed so I didn't bother.

Do you think it will actually make a difference?

[Something_Smart]

Eddie Cane, Dictator or Psychic? You decide.

[Something_Smart]

Alright, this conversation is over.

@Ank @SS please respond to the case with thoughts when you're around.

I see really only one small thing that explains why he wouldn't act that way as town, and it's ambiguous and hard to understand ("He would know she can be low activity as town (as I pointed out) and was unlikely to contest his push").

Other than that, it's a mountainload of confirmation bias.

[Something_Smart]

No its not, see the bolded. That is not confirmation bias.

It's confirmation bias because you looked for things that make sense as coming from scum but you never analyzed whether those things would also make sense as coming from town.

[Something_Smart]

Because CoA was scum and in the absense of other evidence I think those contributing to a red lynch should be given the benefit of the doubt. Sure scum will bus but overall scum need town to be lynched and not scum to win.

CoA was traitor and it's likely scum didn't know this...

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Morality

[Something_Smart]

Do you see a crumb, or anything that could potentially be a crumb?

[Something_Smart]

That's not true though.

I see almost no analysis of the likelihood that RC would do the things he did as town...

[Something_Smart]

That's not true though.

I see almost no analysis of the likelihood that RC would do the things he did as town...

I don't get what you mean

What I mean is, you took a lot of things that RC did and said "he would do this as scum, and this is why." That's not enough for a convincing case, because there are plenty of things that people do as scum but also as town, and sometimes even for different reasons. What you also need to do is say "he WOULDN'T do this as town, and this is why."

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Morality

No, they are soft cleared.

OK.

VOTE: Boats n Hoes

[Something_Smart]

You don't seriously think that a cop would check a guy who claimed to be either ascetic or miller...?

[Something_Smart]

Or do you mean by RCE.

Either way... he claimed ascetic...

[Something_Smart]

I can't remember the last time I saw a crumb be anything but a wifommy distraction

I think it was like... five years ago.

Good traitors don't need to crumb, the last time I was scum with a traitor, they pushed me in a way that made me realize who the traitor was within a couple days of the game starting. There's enough quality players here that I think it would be pretty simple to fake something similar if any of them are scum

Traitor crumbs can definitely backfire yeah, but for some roles crumbing is hugely beneficial... like RCE's...

[Something_Smart]

So you lack reading comprehension. Got it.

No, I think you're expecting me to comprehend things that aren't there. There are a LOT of unstated assumptions in your case, and most of them are questionable.

[Something_Smart]

RCE had no reason to ever not target Boon there

You think it's literally impossible that he scumread someone else more than he scumread Boon? What?

[Something_Smart]

Anyone who is stating that Creature didn’t investigate me Night 1 is just plain wrong.

I have faith that Creature doesn't make an action that can't possibly produce a useful result.

If that gets you mislynched then oh well, we both can yell at him together in postgame.

And even if he did check you, he sure as hell didn't get an inno so I don't know how that would make you cleared.

[Something_Smart]

RCE had no reason to ever not target Boon there

You think it's literally impossible that he scumread someone else more than he scumread Boon? What?

He didn’t. The only other person he was scum reading was Boats/Creature, and Creature was his last.

You're a mind reader now? You know that he didn't see CoA flip traitor and change his reads? You know that he didn't get paranoid on someone and change his action?

[Something_Smart]

Let's lynch in the non-COA non-hood pool. If I'm wrong then we can reevaluate tomorrow. But I don't think I'll be wrong. We don't want to lynch a CoA lyncher and be down another townie.

If you can't find a post from CoA that might have been a crumb, then there wasn't one and scum didn't know she was traitor, and this argument is garbage.

So get searching.

[Something_Smart]

It is about MOST LIKELY, stop twisting my words. it is a hider. it is not literally impossible that a hider would talk about scumreading penguin for the whole game and then target meatloaf and die, but rce is a competent player so playing around him throwing is not the first thing on my mind for some reason ? ? ?

You said the words "no reason," that is an absolute statement, not one about likelihood. You're twisting your own words.

And it's not throwing. It's out-WIFOMing yourself. Reads change. I assume RCE didn't expect CoA to flip traitor specifically, it could very well have influenced his reads during the night. You've done nothing to explain why that's unlikely.

[Something_Smart]

But SS is literally trying to discredit basically confirmed actions.

Just like I tried to discredit "confirmed" vig Tchill in Blessed Mafia?

[Something_Smart]

But I was town there. Clearly this is something I do as town.

I am very firmly against jumping to conclusions, and I am seeing a truly alarming amount of it this game.

[Something_Smart]

It's definitely a weak scum play because my scum strategy is USUALLY to avoid drawing attention to myself and making enemies unnecessarily.

But I'll grant that it's definitely something I might do as scum, and if you had a scumread on my slot beforehand I can't speak to that.

[Something_Smart]

He didn't crumb, first of all. He gave reads, but I doubt those reads were expressly meant to indicate who he was targeting.

[Something_Smart]

Secondly and more importantly, there's a very good chance that you are scum ascetic and then it doesn't matter if he targeted you.

Can you hardclaim your full role please? And please no Boon gambity bullshit.

[Something_Smart]

Even if you were.

What is your role?

[Something_Smart]

Or actually, you don't need to fullclaim. But I need to know this. Do not lie.

Are you ascetic?

[Something_Smart]

OKAY.

I received no result on Morality last night.

VOTE: Morality

[Something_Smart]

There's... 4 scum?

[Something_Smart]

I kind of want to lynch you now just because if we're actually playing a 9:4 game then our loss will be the fault of whoever said this was balanced.

[Something_Smart]

I am not gambiting.

It doesn't mean you are necessarily ascetic, for instance if I was roleblocked. I guess if anyone wants to claim to have blocked me, now is the time...?

[Something_Smart]

UNVOTE:
I guess it's fair to unvote to give people time to talk about it. You are the lynch though.

[Something_Smart]

And there’s a Cop/IC/Disloyal Babysitter, and it’s 3.5 because of a traitor.

So there’s a lot of Inno/Guilty stuff.

Not really at all. Creature's role would get a total of one result. RCE would only get a result if he died and even then only one.

[Something_Smart]

I kind of want to lynch you now just because if we're actually playing a 9:4 game then our loss will be the fault of whoever said this was balanced.

This is a terrible reasoning.

9:4 mini normal is so shitty and I will have words for NK15 and the reviewers if it's true. I'd rather focus on the possibility that this is actually a decent game, because I'd happily give up the chance of winning an awful setup for a better chance of winning a good one.

And my role isn't very strong.

[Something_Smart]

His last game was 15:4.

You're saying this is 9:4. That's not in the same league of crazy at all.

[Something_Smart]

Don’t give up winning an awful setup...win it. Come on, man

Now you seem convinced that I'm town...?

[Something_Smart]

Zero scum motivation. That’s the most anti scum thing ever, and I don’t play anti scum as scum.

Would you deny that, from my point of view here, if you are scum, you're absolutely playing to survive as long as possible?

If I actually got a guilty on you, there's no way you endgame. So your motivation would just be to survive as long as you possibly could and sow confusion in the meantime.

Do you see how this makes sense from my point of view?

[Something_Smart]

If you are town, then help me work this out. 9:4 is insane, so I can't imagine scum have a roleblocker... so it would have to be a townie that RB'd me or rolestopped you.

Maybe we should have everyone massclaim whether or not they interfered with my action.

[Something_Smart]

Hardclaim failed action. Not a gambit.

[Something_Smart]

Did you interfere with my action?

[Something_Smart]

Few reasons.

Main reason is that I actually read a decent amount of this one. Also, just, the people and the environment are different... one of the reasons I replaced in was to play with Boon (And I had info on him, to boot)

[Something_Smart]

Can you go into more detail here?

I mean I can tell you all the things that were different between that game and this one...?

You really shouldn't be surprised that my play here is different from there. That was an extremely high stress game, it moved at lightning speed, and it was a very dayplay-heavy setup.

[Something_Smart]

I mean, that one thought is kinda huge right now.

[Something_Smart]

I can't imagine any scenario in which you would.

[Something_Smart]

I usually play fairly straightforwardly, but I'm not a one-dimensional player.

[Something_Smart]

I just mean that I'm not really volatile or irrational.

[Something_Smart]

I don't know how much that would really help right now. Unless anyone claims to have interfered, we lynch Morality, and then maybe I will do some reading after seeing his flip.

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Morality

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Dunn

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Tarkus

This is the vote I can get behind today.

Why did this post not contain a hammer?

[Something_Smart]

I’m assuming you tried to kill me, SS, then killed Dunnstral because he called you scum.

I'm not the vig, if I tried to vig you and it failed I wouldn't be calling you ascetic.

[Something_Smart]

There is zero reason for scum to not hammer Dunnstral yesterday after he flipped town. That would have effectively kept scum from winning this day phase had there not been a second kill

Huh?

Dunn was mislynch bait. Scum would definitely have preferred to keep him around another day.

[Something_Smart]

And if I was scum, this means I chose not to interfere with them nor kill them despite having them as a PR.

Well... or you had your team roleblock me.

That's doubtful though.

[Something_Smart]

I don't see why I need to claim today, I'll say now that I don't have any useful info.

[Something_Smart]

I mean, I also know the value of keeping your cards close to your chest.

[Something_Smart]

Okay after thinking about it, I will claim today, but after Yellowslot claims.

[Something_Smart]

zzz

[Something_Smart]

Don't join a game if you're going to lurk out.

I don't know why this is so hard for people.

I don't think policy lynching is the solution. Maybe we need more mods with rulesets like Kmd's.

[Something_Smart]

HELLO IF ANYONE NOT IN THIS GAME HAPPENS TO BE READING IT:

Please do us a huge favor and replace into the Yellow slot and claim. You literally don't have to do anything else. If nobody replaces into the slot in 24 hours the game will be busted. Thanks in advance.

[Something_Smart]

Thank you

And yes, we are massclaiming.

[Something_Smart]

Yes, there's a reason. I'll explain it after we both claim.

[Something_Smart]

i am now thinking of cfdfing to Ank slot today

+1

[Something_Smart]

She can't be, or she wouldn't know if it was game over?

[Something_Smart]

Doesn't matter, if this is game over we can blame NK15 and whoever passed his setup for making it 9:4 because that's cancer.

[Something_Smart]

Oh wait lol, I just realized because of our win condition that the mod won't end the game even though it's 3v3.
I'm the other traitor, maf... so don't shoot me.

[Something_Smart]

I was traitor Boon.

Town power was laughably low.

[Something_Smart]

-I think it was still a bit scumsided.

GEE, YOU THINK?

Town had absolutely nowhere near enough power to balance 9:4. One cop check and one IC is two confirmed town-- that would balance 7:2, maybe-- vig is likely to only get one shot off before he dies or is endgames which is worthless because there is no means of stopping a kill, RCE's role doesn't matter 53/54 of the time, and neighborhoods don't really affect balance at all especially when scum is in them.

[Something_Smart]

The good news is I think I have a fairly accurate FL tell now. I just have to figure out how to make getting him lynched is possible.

Apparently fakeclaiming a guilty's not enough...

[Something_Smart]

I forgot one failure of town: The cop checking a claimed Miller/Ascetic.

I mean, to be fair, it was a fake claim.

SOMETHING SMART!!! I DID IT!!! I won a page 1 Miller fake claim and got past a guilty!!!

I'm glad you did it, but it doesn't really count for much because you were dodgy about it early on and also it was obviously bullshit

I did think you were ascetic for a while, hence the claim, but I eventually changed my mind but not the opinion that you were scum, so I kept it.

[Something_Smart]

I find it insane that we had two lynches, one of which was scum before town lost

But ngl I also have the impression that town horribly misplayed the power that was there so

I'm pretty sure I played my imaginary PR better than most people played their real one...

But even if people played their PR's right, there wouldn't have been nearly enough power to balance 9:4.

[Something_Smart]

can i have opinions from the players on whether this setup belonged in the normal queue

I say no. Announced or unannounced 9:4 is just too steep of a ratio to ever be appropriate for a normal.

[Something_Smart]

It was like 4 hours from deadline and nobody was doing anything, sorry

[Something_Smart]

Can I also say that the modkill was bullshit, by the way?

The game was bullshit to begin with

FTFY.

Also can you guys please knock it off with the dick measuring contest. RC played well, FL played decently, Eddie played well, town got screwed by the shitty setup and the modkill. (While it was maybe not necessarily justified, DDL did break a major rule.) What happened was neither the fault of the town nor the accomplishment of the scum.

[Something_Smart]

Even then, I was only townreading you because I thought SS was being... strangely underwhelming. I fully believed that his tone should have been similar to how it was in merchants daughter and the way he was approaching his really this game just felt fake

Okay but like maybe you should go back and reread all the stuff I said now that you know I was town because it was 100% accurate, I don't play the same way in every game and this game was very different in almost every regard

[Something_Smart]

You should see me in face 2 face mafia.

God... I would policy vote you every game.

SS...I just wanna be town with you...

Same!

[Something_Smart]

Uh, I nearly replaced in this game.

You made the right choice...

[Something_Smart]

Well said, Boon.

And while I don't think that NK15 is necessarily a bad mod, the setup definitely didn't turn out well and we could do to learn from it. The review topic's been opened-- I can link it if anyone's interested-- and I was pretty surprised to see both of the reviewers failing to consider balance in a quantitative way at all.

The purpose of this isn't to point fingers; it's to figure out how the review process failed so we can improve it in the future. I will definitely agree with Boon that the concept of the setup was cool, but I don't think it really belonged in the normal queue. NK15, I'd recommend that you run theme games rather than normals-- given the kind of craziness you seem to enjoy I think they'll be better received

[Something_Smart]

What a read that scum PT was. Boon's posts right after I replaced in made me blush

It's too bad Boats was there to stop Boon from telling Yellow to claim to have blocked me... if he had I'd have instantly called out both of them

Oh and by the way, my lategame traitor claim was based on the theory that (1) we were probably boned no matter what and (2) it was possible that Boon was a second traitor who used his claim as a crumb, so there was really nothing to lose by trying it