Mini-Normal 2070 is done

[Inferno390]

VOTE: Davesaz

Hello peoples

[Inferno390]

Going to say now that the early miller claim bothers me. Does a miller normally claim before a cop finds them?

[Inferno390]

@JP: That was a throwaway vote to get into the RVS and the game. I had some stuff to do this morning, so I didn’t really have time to think about what was going on in-game and analyze the game state. I saw that there was a miller claim and it threw me a little, but I didn’t want to comment on it and start doing analysis that would push out if RVS until I had gotten a chance to look at everyone’s response to it.

[Inferno390]

Oh and side note for everyone: This game will most likely consist of just mobile posting for me due to restraints, which may affect the length of my posts and responses, as well as how often I post. I probably won’t quote as much either, but refer to post number, which I may get wrong (as I have before). Thought you should be aware before the meat of the game starts.

[Inferno390]

Going to say now that the early miller claim bothers me. Does a miller normally claim before a cop finds them?

How does that bother you? The point of claiming is to prevent wasting any investigative actions on the miller. It's literally the recommended play in the wiki article of this role. So RuiRui played it correctly by the manual if I got it right.

I’ve just never been in a game with a miller before, and if I have, they didn’t claim in RVS. So I wasn’t sure what that meant in terms of the claim, response, etc.

[Inferno390]

@JP: That was a throwaway vote to get into the RVS and the game. I had some stuff to do this morning, so I didn’t really have time to think about what was going on in-game and analyze the game state. I saw that there was a miller claim and it threw me a little, but I didn’t want to comment on it and start doing analysis that would push out if RVS until I had gotten a chance to look at everyone’s response to it.

Hmm, this awfully sounds like you were just testing the water.
How would people talking about miller claiming early help you figure out their alignments? Assuming that you intended to hold your analysis for this reason.

I’m confused by this question. How does people talking about ANYTHING early help figure out alignments other than by looking at how they respond? Isn’t that literally how you play this game?
And I actually analyze voting patterns and talking patterns. The miller claim itself is not what I would look at, but how people interacted with each other regarding it and what voting patterns emerged.

[Inferno390]

@Egix: why do you find Vork’s reaction “interesting?”

[Inferno390]

I don’t believe I’ve ever seen scum selfvote in RVS before. I tend to read it as NAI though, because I had a game a while ago that got really winded about the scemantics of said move, and in the end it’s just a ton of WIFOM until you have further info.

[Inferno390]

Mind sharing?

[Inferno390]

However much this sounds like parroting Tchill, refusing to speak your mind when we’re all trying to sort and analyze just looks like you’re trying to look active without doing anything. Which does not earn you town-points. It’d be one thing if you were trying to get a reaction out of people. But right now you’re just calling attention to yourself and then not following up on it. Not great.

[Inferno390]

No no no, I’m parroting you Tchill. Not the other way around.

[Inferno390]

However much this sounds like

I am

parroting Tchill. I was addressing RC and you made a similar comment above.

[Inferno390]

And how was I caught scum, exactly?

[Inferno390]

Ok I see how it is
I called you out on your BS confscum claim and so you try to apply pressure to me
Lovely

When people have real reasons for calling me scum, let me know. I’ll be here waiting when they do.

[Inferno390]

Response to 85:

1) see, this is where I’m confused. I said in my very first response to you that I hadn’t address the miller claim yet because I hadn’t gotten the chance to read what everyone else had said in response to it. In case you missed it, there are a wide number of opinions right now as to whether it was true or not and/or why. What did I do wrong here?

2) Tchill just literally posted the same thing that my above post did, but in less words. I was recognizing that fact. I would understand if I had said “I don’t want to parrot people, but...”. That’s not what I did. If I was so worried about parroting people. I wouldn’t have said it at all?

3) This is a misrep of the situation. I called RC out on being vague and unhelpful play. He responds with quipped remark and what amounts to an OMGUS vote. Axe jumps on the wagon with nothing more than “Oh, RC is correct.” It’s not a matter of proof, it’s a matter of people trying to get a ride out of me instead of having a reason to vote me. This is me calling it out and saying I’m not going to take a crap wagon on page 4 seriously.

VOTE: Axe
This is probably the most disgusting vote on my wagon. Flagrant sheeping, evasive responses and a shit post to respond to the one good analytical post made on my wagon? Really?

[Inferno390]

Oh okay
I mostly wanted to see what voting patterns around the claim would be like, if people were defending the claim, if people were completely throwing the claim out without evidence, etc. If someone was trying to push the claim relatively hard in one direction and responding to it with a lot of force, I would probably lean scum on them a little bit. Which would have an effect on how I read voting patterns and the RVS transition.

@Axe I’m voting for you because your vote and subsequent posts regarding me are crap and we both know it. As I just made explicitly clear. I’d be voting for you rn regardless of what your wagon looked like.
Great shade though. Certainly makes you look townier.

[Inferno390]

Hey Dave, mind giving some real thoughts on this wagon, since the only other person actually doing so is not around right now?

[Inferno390]

Btw his posting since being called out is absurdly LAMIST. He is trying to sound townie and unconcerned

Maybe I’m not

trying

to sound concerned. Maybe I’m just not concerned. Because, again, this is a BS wagon that only one person (which is niether you or Axe) has actually given real reasons as to why they were voting me before the above quoted post. Which is very clearly flailing on actually having a reason. Oh, and the fact that I’m at L-4 and this is, again,

a BS wagon

that is not going to go anywhere until you have real reasons for calling me scum.

[Inferno390]

Really? Then why am I still here?

[Inferno390]

You shouldn’t need more pages. If you need more pages, then clearly your argument (or lack of one) is not persuasive enough to get me lynched.

[Inferno390]

I’m getting really tired of throwing words for no good reason. Does no one else really have anything good to say? Talk to me, people.

[Inferno390]

Tchill, y?

No, seriously. The lack of reasoning being given behind everything is getting out of hand.

[Inferno390]

So basically, give me no time and no way to defend myself.

This is insane. What you are doing literally defies all logic.

But keep going. I want to see how dumb you two actually are.

[Inferno390]

Why do you think I am voting you Axe? Other than the fact that everything you’ve done in regards to my wagon screams scum.

[Inferno390]

VOTE: NotAnAxehole

Get him guys!

VOTE: ruirui

Is there any pro-town reason to claim Miller before day 2? The only reason to claim Miller is to protect a cop no?

Radiant cowbells is right.

VOTE: inferno390

Well this is interesting.

A quick ISO of this guy confirms that Radiantcowbells is correct.

What is interesting?

I've got another read I'm thinking is likely, but I'd like to make sure everyone has posted and given their position on Inferno390 first.

I’m confused by this question. How does people talking about ANYTHING early help figure out alignments other than by looking at how they respond? Isn’t that literally how you play this game?
And I actually analyze voting patterns and talking patterns. The miller claim itself is not what I would look at, but how people interacted with each other regarding it and what voting patterns emerged.

I was being specific about the whole miller situation. You saw the miller claim, and how people reacted to it already - either agreement or disagreement with the claim. Did you expect people to say other things than agreement/disagreement or the whole "miller claims at Day 1" theory?

(we lost a town game where this very thing happened)

I guess this explains Vorkuta's behavior.

At this point, NotAnAxeHole is close from being lynched, and if I understood correctly, for being a Canadian. Must be a rough life being a Canadian.

However much this sounds like parroting Tchill, refusing to speak your mind when we’re all trying to sort and analyze just looks like you’re trying to look active without doing anything. Which does not earn you town-points. It’d be one thing if you were trying to get a reaction out of people. But right now you’re just calling attention to yourself and then not following up on it. Not great.

I don't like this post, especially the "However much this sounds like parroting Tchill" part. It sounds like he is worried about his actions looking bad. I think town wouldn't care as much about what they say as long as they get their points accross?

Ok I see how it is
I called you out on your BS confscum claim and so you try to apply pressure to me
Lovely

When people have real reasons for calling me scum, let me know. I’ll be here waiting when they do.

Ah, the great "I'm not guilty; you have no proof."
This usually comes from guilty people.

VOTE: Inferno390

Lol

Response to 85:

1) see, this is where I’m confused. I said in my very first response to you that I hadn’t address the miller claim yet because I hadn’t gotten the chance to read what everyone else had said in response to it. In case you missed it, there are a wide number of opinions right now as to whether it was true or not and/or why. What did I do wrong here?

2) Tchill just literally posted the same thing that my above post did, but in less words. I was recognizing that fact. I would understand if I had said “I don’t want to parrot people, but...”. That’s not what I did. If I was so worried about parroting people. I wouldn’t have said it at all?

3) This is a misrep of the situation. I called RC out on being vague and unhelpful play. He responds with quipped remark and what amounts to an OMGUS vote. Axe jumps on the wagon with nothing more than “Oh, RC is correct.” It’s not a matter of proof, it’s a matter of people trying to get a ride out of me instead of having a reason to vote me. This is me calling it out and saying I’m not going to take a crap wagon on page 4 seriously.

VOTE: Axe
This is probably the most disgusting vote on my wagon. Flagrant sheeping, evasive responses and a shit post to respond to the one good analytical post made on my wagon? Really?

If you're voting for me because you expect my wagon to remain, let me tell you now it's a bad strategy.

Oh okay
I mostly wanted to see what voting patterns around the claim would be like, if people were defending the claim, if people were completely throwing the claim out without evidence, etc. If someone was trying to push the claim relatively hard in one direction and responding to it with a lot of force, I would probably lean scum on them a little bit. Which would have an effect on how I read voting patterns and the RVS transition.

@Axe I’m voting for you because your vote and subsequent posts regarding me are crap and we both know it. As I just made explicitly clear. I’d be voting for you rn regardless of what your wagon looked like.
Great shade though. Certainly makes you look townier.

I refuse to engage caught scum.

I agree for lynching through claim in this case.

So basically, give me no time and no way to defend myself.

This is insane. What you are doing literally defies all logic.

But keep going. I want to see how dumb you two actually are.

Maybe form a read rather than cry about it.

Notice how you’ve said literally nothing of value in this game. It’s a beautiful example of active lurking and clogging up the thread with meaningless nonsense. And that you’ve given literally no reason to be voting me. Need I go on?

[Inferno390]

Spoiler: Shoulda put the last one in here

VOTE: nsg

no me

VOTE: axehole

Toronto maple losers more like

No

I have seen scum do it

But sometimes town roll miller

UNVOTE:

UNVOTE:

I have a confident scumread already

I'd rather not. If another scum thinks they're the caught one then I might get a nice 2 for 1

@_@

RC, is the scum you?

No it's my scumpartner

Ok I'll vote

VOTE: inferno390

Bye bye scum

More like scum

I mean he was caught scum before he made those posts lol

Elementary, my dear inferno.

Ok I see how it is
I called you out on your BS confscum claim and so you try to apply pressure to me
Lovely

When people have real reasons for calling me scum, let me know. I’ll be here waiting when they do.

Always a scum reaction lol

Why can't every game be this easy

Elementary, my dear inferno.

We're at -4

Btw his posting since being called out is absurdly LAMIST. He is trying to sound townie and unconcerned

He's actually caught scum just lynch him asap

I can have you lynched without giving any more reason than I already have

Because it's page 4

You shouldn’t need more pages. If you need more pages, then clearly your argument (or lack of one) is not persuasive enough to get me lynched.

Just lynch

No like

We're not letting him out a pr

Next time don't scumclaim on page one

He's scum relax

Other than that, yea

And here’s RC’s. Which is actually less than Axe’s. Which would make him vote him except for the fact that if I remember correctly, his playstyle is to play like trash and then get people to follow him.
Or maybe not. It’s been a while.

[Inferno390]

I think Inferno's doing too much if he is scum at this point. he's protesting too hard, seems too annoyed by the process of it all. That's just the feeling I'm getting.

This is a terrible read. What do you expect him to do, literally zero post when he gets called scum?

What would Town do, literally zero post when they get called scum?

[Inferno390]

I think Inferno's doing too much if he is scum at this point. he's protesting too hard, seems too annoyed by the process of it all. That's just the feeling I'm getting.

So do you think I’m flaily scum or town?

[Inferno390]

You're not town though.

I am though.

[Inferno390]

They felt more for show with "LAMIST" and playing the "oh gee I don't know what the most towniest thing to do with a miller in the game" card.

I didn’t say this. I didn’t even imply this with what I said.
I said I was uncomfortable with the claim but I had no idea how miller was supposed to be played, so I wasn’t sure how to take it.
The claim, not the role itself.

[Inferno390]

I'm explaining- that's the vibe and impression I felt as you were asking those questions.
Your approach did not feel sincere and gamesolvey to me.

Okay. That makes sense. My bad.

Inferno, do you have a read on Vorkuta?

I’m leaning town. I don’t like that he’s just going to sheep RC, but he’s coming out and giving real reasons for his vote as well, which seems genuine.

I would like some reads from him on other people as well.

[Inferno390]

We're on PG 4...RC has (apparently) got inferno dead to rights and it seems like ppl have no issue following him (including myself).

Other than RC I don't think anyone has a VALID reason. I'm not a tone reader. I'm doing it because RC seems so sure. The only thing that makes me hesitant is axehole hops right onto the inferno push with a lot of confidence when axehole was the other wagon. Seems survivalistic to me.

Of course these thoughts don't matter unless inferno flips town. Of course he isn't going... Right?

What about Gantt? And Vork? Are their points not valid?
If you think Axe’s move was survivalistic, are he and I scumbuddies? What does an Axe+Inferno world look like?
And if it doesn’t, who would you choose between the two of us?

[Inferno390]

If you think Axe’s move was survivalistic, are he and I scumbuddies?

No, that would imply the opposite

That we’re both town? Then why is he voting me?
Or that Axe is scum? Then, again, why is he voting me?
Sorry, I was just trying to approach it from him coming from scum!Inferno.
But if he’s not, that’s a important point too.

[Inferno390]

2) Tchill just literally posted the same thing that my above post did, but in less words. I was recognizing that fact. I would understand if I had said “I don’t want to parrot people, but...”. That’s not what I did. If I was so worried about parroting people. I wouldn’t have said it at all?

It's not about the wording though. It's the fact that you had to say something about your action looking like parroting.
That shows self-consciousness, and I think that's more of a trait of Mafia than a trait of Town.
Also, you could have said it to look like Town, so talking about whether you would have posted that in the first place is moot.

3) This is a misrep of the situation. I called RC out on being vague and unhelpful play. He responds with quipped remark and what amounts to an OMGUS vote. Axe jumps on the wagon with nothing more than “Oh, RC is correct.” It’s not a matter of proof, it’s a matter of people trying to get a ride out of me instead of having a reason to vote me. This is me calling it out and saying I’m not going to take a crap wagon on page 4 seriously.

And this time it's about the wording. I think town would have worded what you said differently other than being overly cheeky about it.

Okay, this makes sense.

[Inferno390]

This interaction pinged me, although I dont know what it pinged or who pinged it

Maybe it pinged for you because you viewed the whole post as an interaction when it really wasn't one?
Except for the first quote, they were just comments.

When someone quotes a post, that is an interaction. Axe interacted with you and either their interaction or your original response pinged me. Not sure yet why

I’m not sure why Gantt’s post would ping you. It’s a pretty sincere post.

[Inferno390]

Falling prety to what charisma

inferno is literally confirmed scum.

I wish you would stop saying that and actually give reasons
Since you know that’s what you’re supposed to do
Not just mudsling at every chance you get

[Inferno390]

Okay, this makes sense.

Ah, the acceptance of defeat.
Guess I'm doing pretty well for my first game.

Admission of defeat?
Or understanding where you are coming from?
Not the same thing.

[Inferno390]

Question:
Does RC normally threaten people who stop sheeping him?

[Inferno390]

I’ve played minimally with him. None of them were experiences I could say I particularly enjoyed, but they weren’t as bad as this either. (Which his nothing against you RC, we just tend to grate each other regardless of alignment.) But I can’t ever recall him threatening people who stop agreeing with him.

[Inferno390]

ITT both Tchill and Inferno390 are discrediting the reads of a player who is 7/4 on main this year and 3 of those 7 were perfect victories.

This is a fallacy. I don’t remember what, but I remember it’s a fallacy.
It doesn’t make me want to trust you more.
It make me think you’re flailing to get me lynched now.

[Inferno390]

7for7. That’s what it’s called.
I’m happy with my vote on Axe, thanks.

[Inferno390]

If you’re not going to elaborate on your reads, then why should we trust them?

[Inferno390]

Directed at Axe. Ninja’d.

[Inferno390]

It's kinda funny because people are going "RC I don't believe you" and yet

none

of them bothered to respond to what I said about Inferno.

Who in particular are you looking at in that regard? I know it’s basically everybody, but are there any people who you feel really should be responding to what you are saying and aren’t?

[Inferno390]

@RuiRui: Do you think those votes on me have basis or not, on an individual basis? Do you think they come from scum or town?
@Tchill: Why are voting Ezra and simultaneously questioning Axe’s read on you? Did you find what Gantt said convincing enough to put pressure in that direction?
@Axe: What exactly do you see that Gantt is saying?

[Inferno390]

did someone say ABR?

AfR, you mean? Argument from Repetition? Basically the only thing you’ve done this game?
Another good reason why we should be hesitant to listen to anything you say. Thanks.

[Inferno390]

I’m sorry.
Did you just do a vote analysis in Day 1 woth literally no information to go off of other than your bias?
I think that’s called BS. Since you really can’t say with any certainty that ANY of those players are the alignment that you say they are.

[Inferno390]

And how, exactly are you so sure of that?

[Inferno390]

So the reason you and RC are Town is because you would never do what you are doing as scum, and I’m sum because I’m a rat.

So basically AtE and mudslinging.

You are piggybacking on other’s reads, you are not giving any reads of your own, you have not contributed to gamestate, you are not actively scumhunting, and you are mudslinging at me because you literally have no basis for calling me scum and we all know it. This is all behavior that does not come from town.
And you can call “never do this as scum” all you want, but while that may be somewhat true for RC (though Dave has already said that meta shows otherwise), it is NOT true for you, because you are just piggybacking RC. You have every opportunity D2 to turn around and say “Oh, I was just following RC” when I flip town, because you are literally doing nothing other than that.

[Inferno390]

Do

1. Read these.
   
2. Follow all site rules.
   
3. Treat this game as a commitment. Post at least once every 48 hours or get prodded. 3 prods and you will be force replaced.
   
4. Reply to your prod within 24 hours.
   
5. Use your v/la tags and let me know either in thread or via pm if you expect to be inactive.
   
6. Bold or use the vote tags to vote. VOTE: Stefan B
   
7. Contact me if I've made a mistake.

Don't

1. Quote private communication (real or otherwise). This includes your role pm, mod communication, and posts from private threads. Paraphrase.
   
2. Break site rules.
   
3. Talk about this game outside of the game thread unless your role specifically allows it.
   
4. Use trickery. Encryption, extremely small text, or similar tactics.
   
5. Use
   purple
   .
   They
   are
   all

   belonging

   to

   me

   .
   Stef may borrow them.
   
6. Post when you are dead.
   
   
   I reserve the right to add any rules that I see fit.
   
   
   1. Skellen
      
      
   2. Egix96
      
      
   3. RadiantCowbells
      
      
   4. NotAnAxehole
      
      
   5. Inferno390
      
   6. chennisden
      
      
   7. RuiRui
      
   8. davesaz
      
      
   9. Vorkuta
      
      
   10. Tchill13
       
       
   11. John Pierce Gantt
       
       
   12. themilkcartonkid
       
       
   13. ErzaScarlet

*=prod

It's called PoE.

Once you've been lynched, I might humor the remainder of town with an actual read. Until then, the PoE and optimal lynch is clear.

@Axe, your PoE is coming from a already biased viewpoint. You’re clearly fitting the evidence (or lack of any) to validate what you want to believe.

So far the reasons to justify my wagon are Appeal to Emotion, 7for7, Argument from Repetition, and Confirmation Bias. All fallacies and all making wagon nonsense. Notice how I haven’t ran Gantt’s thoughts over yet. It might have something to do with the fact that they’re real thoughts.

[Inferno390]

Hi guys
A lot has happened
As soon as I read up I’ll give some spicy takes

[Inferno390]

Okay, after glancing over the gamestate here's what I think so far.

I think Vork open sheeping RC is bad.
I think that between Axe and RC, Axe is scum. Axe is clearly just trolling and playing against town wincon, while RC has definitely cleaned up over the last few pages. But that could just be that he's actively contributing to the game now instead of deathtunneling me.
The way Axe phrased his claim I think it's fake. He didn't come out and say he was a cop, he worded it in a very manipulative way that I don't think come from town.
Tchill reads honest imo. His response to everything after replacing seems sincere and frustrated like town would be, not scum.

Gonna keep reading, but these are my preliminary thoughts.

[Inferno390]

Ok, an ISO of Tchill is hard to read as town.

@Tchill: Talk to me about RC. Why do you think he's scum? And if he's scum, who is he scum with?

P-edit: Holy crap the gamespeed

[Inferno390]

I think Vork open sheeping RC is bad.

Hi hi, why why?

I mean
-The guy made a huge impression on me previously
-If he's scum, then I can't win PERIOD, so the only way for me to play to my wincon is by assuming he's conf!town.
-An anti-RC wagon will not go through PERIOD, so it's pointless to try.
-Is it bad that deep down I might actually agree with some

most

of his points? Like "genuinely" and would do so even if they came from any other player?
-Give me OBJECTIVELY BETTER READS and gameplan than what RC has. I'll wait.

Firstly, none of this does not make what you are doing scummy behavior. It would be one thing if you were actively adding something to the things he was saying. Right now you're just sheeping him blindly. And you're proclaiming it. Loudly. So, if you're scum (which I'm not saying you are) you can hide behind blind sheeping to justify lynches. Which would make sense if, for example RC was wrong about Tchill/Axe. Which I don't think he is on Axe (Tchill I'm unsure), but it does make sense from a Scum!Vork perspective. Which looks bad for you, and is what I'm commenting on.

[Inferno390]

I don't really think Vork is Mafia.

Why? What makes you think he is town?

[Inferno390]

Imma just copy and paste Inferno's sig right here as it seems appropriate

"Do I have permission to....refute some of the bs that Inferno just spewed out?"--TywinL

The above quote was from scum that game that I called out D1 and got right.

Just so you know.

[Inferno390]

Will someone remind me what ascetic is again?
And why does it make Tchill more likely to be scum?

[Inferno390]

Okay. So is this like the miller scenario we had at the start of the game, where he's dead man walking? Or am I not understanding what this means in terms of everything else?

[Inferno390]

I'm going to go read Tchill's ISO again.

[Inferno390]

VOTE: notanaxehole

Cool name btw.

As for voters of axehole. I do believe it's more likely the self vote is a scum gambit opposed to the Miller claim.

That's 100 percent personal bias based on what I've seen from this site. I understand other ppl may have had different experiences.

Okay, this feels weird. Especially with the weird distancing thing going on between Axe and Tchill.

I think Tchill+Axe might actually be a thing.

[Inferno390]

Okay

RC and Tchill, please take a 24 break from the thread to cool off and reapproach the game
Because the snark is not helping town at all here.

[Inferno390]

How am I supposed to give objectively better reads than anyone else? Whether my reads are better or not is completely subjective to the reader.

[Inferno390]

@RC: While I can see Scum!Tchill rn, I am not about to jump on a wagon with you after your gambit on me, especially since you've also said that Axe is scum. I am in total agreement that Axe is scum, but I am not so sure on Tchill, and I don't trust you enough right now to just sheep you unless I feel more confident.

P-Edit: See, this is why I don't like your play, Vork.

[Inferno390]

@RC: While I can see Scum!Tchill rn, I am not about to jump on a wagon with you after your gambit on me, especially since you've also said that Axe is scum. I am in total agreement that Axe is scum, but I am not so sure on Tchill, and I don't trust you enough right now to just sheep you unless I feel more confident.

P-Edit: See, this is why I don't like your play, Vork.

I'm heart broken because you're tunneling me, I might have to replace.

Is there a way to flip people off over the internet?
I would really like it.

[Inferno390]

Thanks.

@Axe:
.|.

[Inferno390]

VOTE: themilkcartonkid
There is almost no other conclusion I can think of that would explain the night.

Why?

[Inferno390]

I’m going to pull some votecounts together and look at some ISOs when I can. Busy day today guys.

I do think RC needs to take a back seat today though.

[Inferno390]

Neighborizer should neighborize me tonight please

And what makes you such a good target for the neighborhood?

If we have a neighborizer, they should be targeting PRs. That way, they can share info and also have a backup plan if the PR dies, because all the info can be relayed to the other members and be saved in case of a NK.

So unless you are claiming some sort of PR (which is foolish imo because you’ll just get shot), let the neighborizer choose their own targets from who they think is a PR.

[Inferno390]

That was not a softclaim btw

Ok. I figured as much.
So why are you trying to tell the neighborizer what to do?

[Inferno390]

I would have said if I needed to

You would have said WHAT?
Give me straight answers, milk.

[Inferno390]

This isn't a sologambit either

Who said it was a solo gambit? Who said I thought you were solo gambiting?
All I’m saying is don’t tell the neighborizer what to do. Optimal play would dictate doing exactly not what you just did.

[Inferno390]

I do have a question, why if we have an ascetic and at least 1 of a miller, vig, and neighborizer would prs need to share info?

???
If a cop becomes neighborized, the neighborizer basically becomes a backup drive for all of the cop’s info. That way, if the cop gets shot, we can still find out who he confirmed as scum and town. And this is even better when two PRs are in the same neighborhood, because they can freely share info that they get at night without outing themselves to scum. They are then able to coordinate their actions and have much more info to work from then they would regularly. Which is really good for town.

[Inferno390]

So I’m not understanding what you are asking. It is always good for PRs to share info because they can have a much better grasp on the game and who’s who.

[Inferno390]

@Skellen:
Because his claim seemed flaily and really fake in the way it was phrased. I didn’t think it was real.
Also, because Axe’s play was so poor, I actually had been thinking it over (and would have posted in the thread had you nincompoops not speed lynched) and came to the conclusion that an Axe lynch would have been better than a Tchill lynch. Based on the info we had that day and the points made in those two’s interaction, I thought that it was more likely to be Town!Tchill on a Town!Axe flip then Town!Axe on a Town!Tchill flip.
In other words, I would have much more likely placed Tchill as Town if Axe flopped Town than placed Axe as Town if Tchill flipped town. If that makes sense. So we would have had far more info from an Axe lynch rather than a Tchill lynch. If that’s not clear, ask and I’ll try and clarify.
But you guys had to go speedlynching right after I went to bed and never let me get thoughts out. Not cool.

I’m struggling to comprehend the thread right now. I need to read it slower on a much larger screen. That being said, RC, Chen, and Jingle are all feeling a little shady right now, and Vork is not looking great without follow up posts. Rui is spewing Town, especially with the miller claim. Not sure on anyone else.

[Inferno390]

Why do you think this is worth a vote on Skellen? How is it not something town would ask?

The question is fishing for cop, but blatantly.

I don't see how this is rolefishing. Axe claimed cop. What normally happens in a scenario where someone claims an important role like that is everyone unvotes them. I didn't. It's a fair question.

[Inferno390]

No. IMO lynchbait pushing me just makes me harder to lynch.

So why does tmck fearkill axe when axe is clearly not a charismatic party to begin with?

I'm not particularly worried about whether the people that get invited are scum. What I'd like is to invite people who are likely to be active in the hood. The easiest way to do so, imo, is to ask who would like to be in the hood.

But this defeats the entire purpose of a neighborizer imo.

[Inferno390]

Also, I’m the Flying Pumpkin that Shoots Lazer Beams Out Of It’s Ass.
It was about time to get that out of the way.

[Inferno390]

How does a neighborizer sort?
It doesn’t tell you anything about alignment. It just creates a PT for a couple of people.

[Inferno390]

I guess that makes sense.

[Inferno390]

Why is it inconsistent? It’s only inconsistent according to your logic (scum doesn’t want to be a neighborhood at all). I don’t think that’s true. A good scum player would actually welcome to opportunity, because if they could convince the neighborhood that they are Town, it gives scum an edge. Also, in a neighborhood, scum has the opportunity to be privy to info (especially, as I have pointed out already, PR) info that they wouldn’t have otherwise, which again, would give them an edge.

And while Jingle’s reasoning makes sense, yours doesn’t nearly as much. I highly doubt scum is going to play so differently between a PT and the main thread that’s it’s going to be noticeable, and they’d really have to not be paying attention to slip up enough to actually incriminate themselves. Part of what a good scum player has to do is be consistent. And unless they’re really having to fabricate the things they’re saying, I highly doubt they’re going to be inconsistent, and if they are, they’re probably already doing it once the main thread.

In summary, I think you are intentionally ignoring a line of thought here and promoting the version that makes you look the towniest. While Chen doesn’t read great, you saying everything he’s saying is illogical while simultaneously implying that there’s no reason why scum would want to be neighborhood, and therefore what you’re doing is town. I don’t think that’s true, and I think it feels pretty LAMIST.
VOTE: Milk

[Inferno390]

Do you think TMCK is scum or that he's saying something dumb because they're two very different things

I’m not sold on it yet, but I think that that last post from Axe combined with the NK combined with what I’m seeing from him today makes it a reasonable possibility. So I’m going to pressure it and see what happens.

[Inferno390]

Chenn is saying that he wouldn't kill lynchbait who was pushing him, but also said that themilkcartonkid is the only person who it makes sense to nightkill Axe.

This, this is the inconsistancy

That’s not inconsistent.
Chen’s not saying ANYONE would do that as scum.
He’s saying that Scum!Chen wouldn’t do that because it makes him harder to lynch.
Unless I’m misunderstanding the context.

[Inferno390]

I just straight up don’t think it’s inconsistent.

[Inferno390]

Inferno:

Logic Track 1:

Axe was pushing tmck. Axe was likely to be lynched. tmck is therefore the only person to have a reason to kill axe.

Logic Track 2:

If someone who is liable to be a mislynch is pushing me, I should not kill them, because keeping them around will help me stay alive.

These are implicitly contradictory. Either the premise is that scum milk is worse at picking NK's than scum chen or chen is pushing something he doesn't see scum doing as scummy.

The important question is whether the latter would come from town who is surface leveling the shit out of that read or scum making it up.

See the problem with this is the word “implicitly.” Chen said he would not shoot lynchbait at night if they were pushing them. Does that mean that no one would do it ever? No. Does that not mean that the line of thought of scum!milk makes sense? No.
Does this not look great for Chen? No. But it does not mean it is something Chen does not see scum doing. It just means it is something Chen would not do as scum. That is an important difference. And Axe did make a strong end post casing milk to finish out the day yesterday, which could be influencing how Chen views the situation.

[Inferno390]

Actually, all things equal, if there is not vig, I think the Miller claim would be real because the only reason why you would kill a cop claim as poor as axe would be if you genuinely though they could be cop. If there was a real Miller, then there will probably be some sort of an investigative role. They would have had to have a reason to believe axe I think. Maybe Miller is that reason. I'm not saying there is a cop, but I think there is a miller

@RC what do you think about my logic?

I would still like RC to answer this

My two cents is that this is bad logic because it assumes scum has info (the Miller claim is true) that they would be very unlikely to have. Now, scum can assume that the miller claim is true and be working off of, but that doesn’t mean by extension that the miller claim is true. It just means that there is probably scum who thinks that the miller claim is true and acted on it. Which was basically everyone as far as I could tell. Vork maybe not.

[Inferno390]

How is you!scum less likely or any less likely than Chen!scum?
And I didn’t say that I thought Rui was fakeclaiming. I for one believe the claim. So do you. But that doesn’t mean you aren’t assuming things based on things that don’t correlate. Just because the scum believe the miller claim is true does not mean that the miller claim is true. What makes the miller claim likely true is that scum claiming miller makes no sense.

[Inferno390]

V/LA for the next 24 hours

[Inferno390]

Because the case on Milk that Axe made at end of day had legitimate merits.

What merits?

If the case had merits before the nightkill, why does your case appear to be solely based on the nightkill?

I think that the logic here is that Axe was shot BECAUSE the case had merit.

[Inferno390]

Inferno, do you townread chennisden?

I do not. I am slightly leaning scum on him.

[Inferno390]

Chen’s D1 was poor. Lurking most of the day and the few posts he did make were not productive.
Now this phase has been somewhat better. His posts feel solvey. The problem is that those posts are also not the greatest. The consistency is not perfect. And he is repeating what others are saying a little bit. But while it’s not great posting, it’s not screaming scum to me either. Hence the lean.

[Inferno390]

Inferno, do you townread chennisden?

I do not. I am slightly leaning scum on him.

I checked Infernos iso because this post surprised me. Turns out they've been shading chen all day 2 with no reason stated and often argues in a way that says "yeah, ignore their scumminess" in favor of different lynches. also, this is +town for rui I think.

I’m strongly put off by this post. I’ve literally been agreeing with you and Jingle that Chen’s posting is not great. That’s not shading. And I am not “ignoring their scumminess in favor of other lynches.” The only lynch I’ve pushed today is you. Which if I haven’t made clear, is because I think there is more merit for scum!milk than scum!Chen right now based on the narrative of the game so far. That’s very clearly not the same thing, and the fact that you would portay it as such is very much a misrep of today.

[Inferno390]

That is not what I am doing at all. Saying that what you and Jingle are saying has validity to it is not the same as shading someone.
You are very clearly interpreting the facts and taking my posts out of context in such a way as to make what I’m saying look bad.

[Inferno390]

But like, you are.
Here, let me put it in context for you.

Chen:

As scum do you nightkill lynchbait who is pushing you?

Why does scum want to infiltrate the neighborhood?

Did you read:

Please let me know if you want to join me and a mysterious third person in partying hardy.

Does it effect your tmck read?

@Jingle:

No. IMO lynchbait pushing me just makes me harder to lynch.

Scum can buddy and if you're a PR they can learn more about your plans and scum can counteract. From my experience it's a lot easier for scum to live in a neighborhood.

For my tmck read it makes me think he's scum even more

Inferno, or whoever, what do yall think about this inconsistent logic, is it scum or town or total nai?

Why is it inconsistent? It’s only inconsistent according to your logic (scum doesn’t want to be a neighborhood at all). I don’t think that’s true. A good scum player would actually welcome to opportunity, because if they could convince the neighborhood that they are Town, it gives scum an edge. Also, in a neighborhood, scum has the opportunity to be privy to info (especially, as I have pointed out already, PR) info that they wouldn’t have otherwise, which again, would give them an edge.

And while Jingle’s reasoning makes sense, yours doesn’t nearly as much. I highly doubt scum is going to play so differently between a PT and the main thread that’s it’s going to be noticeable, and they’d really have to not be paying attention to slip up enough to actually incriminate themselves. Part of what a good scum player has to do is be consistent. And unless they’re really having to fabricate the things they’re saying, I highly doubt they’re going to be inconsistent, and if they are, they’re probably already doing it once the main thread.

In summary, I think you are intentionally ignoring a line of thought here and promoting the version that makes you look the towniest. While Chen doesn’t read great, you saying everything he’s saying is illogical while simultaneously implying that there’s no reason why scum would want to be neighborhood, and therefore what you’re doing is town. I don’t think that’s true, and I think it feels pretty LAMIST.
VOTE: Milk

Inferno:

Logic Track 1:

Axe was pushing tmck. Axe was likely to be lynched. tmck is therefore the only person to have a reason to kill axe.

Logic Track 2:

If someone who is liable to be a mislynch is pushing me, I should not kill them, because keeping them around will help me stay alive.

These are implicitly contradictory. Either the premise is that scum milk is worse at picking NK's than scum chen or chen is pushing something he doesn't see scum doing as scummy.

The important question is whether the latter would come from town who is surface leveling the shit out of that read or scum making it up.

Inferno:

Logic Track 1:

Axe was pushing tmck. Axe was likely to be lynched. tmck is therefore the only person to have a reason to kill axe.

Logic Track 2:

If someone who is liable to be a mislynch is pushing me, I should not kill them, because keeping them around will help me stay alive.

These are implicitly contradictory. Either the premise is that scum milk is worse at picking NK's than scum chen or chen is pushing something he doesn't see scum doing as scummy.

The important question is whether the latter would come from town who is surface leveling the shit out of that read or scum making it up.

See the problem with this is the word “implicitly.” Chen said he would not shoot lynchbait at night if they were pushing them. Does that mean that no one would do it ever? No. Does that not mean that the line of thought of scum!milk makes sense? No.
Does this not look great for Chen? No. But it does not mean it is something Chen does not see scum doing. It just means it is something Chen would not do as scum. That is an important difference. And Axe did make a strong end post casing milk to finish out the day yesterday, which could be influencing how Chen views the situation.

From this it is very, very clear that I am not just shading Chen. You and Jingle are saying Chen’s posting is bad. I am agreeing with you. Not the same thing. Never ever the same thing. Will never be the same thing.
This is BS and you know it.

[Inferno390]

Also, I love how the two people you are throwing shade at/wagoning are the two people pushing you this day phase.

[Inferno390]

In fact, the only people you’ve pushed as scum are me and Chen in response to our reads on you, Axe and Tchill on the wagons, and Gantt and RC. And the RC one you’ve redacted. I don’t like the context of where those reads are coming from.

[Inferno390]

Actually, I don’t like the way you interact with RC at all. First you call him scum for no reason as far as I can see, but then you spend the rest of the day ignoring him or treating him like town. You don’t even push the read. And then you come back and say everything at the beginning of D2 about town!RC. It’s all very off.

[Inferno390]

Just because I agree with you that Chen’s play is poor does not mean I think he is scum.
And I agree with you that he is scummy, yet it suprised you that I had a scum lean on him?
There is so much flaily bad logic in what you are saying that it makes me hurt. You are just throwing words in an attempt to derail me atp.

[Inferno390]

I am not “not putting my vote where my scumread is.” My strongest scumread is YOU. I’m not sure how that’s clear.
I have said that his logic does not read great. I have also said that you and Jingle are twisting his logic into something it is not. You are very clearly painting what Chen is saying as something far worse than it actually is. Chen’s play is poor, yes. But it’s not nearly as a bad as the BS you’ve been throwing in an attempt to shake both him and me. Which sets off a lot more alarms for you considering that Chen’s play is not good. If his play was really as terrible as you make it out to be, you would not be flailing nearly this hard against him.

[Inferno390]

I am going to lay out my entire argument in one really long post to make it explicitly clear.

I scumlean Chen. Play was very poor D1, but today, while his logic could use some work, feels solvey and like he’s sorting.
Chen is NOT my strongest scumread. My strongest scumread is milk. He has felt exceptionally flaily today. His response to my neighborhood questions was incredibly poor. He is misrepping what I am doing and painting what Chen is saying in a far worse light than it actually is. The only things milk has seriously pushed was the Axe and Tchill wagons yesterday, and me and Chen today after we started pushing him. He is saying my focus on logic is weird, except that is exactly what he is doing to rebuff Chen, and Chen’s logic is not even near as bad as what milk is making it out to be. And to top it all off, the narrative of the game shows that Axe was looking to flip his game around at the end of D1, starting with a strong case on milk. Axe was shot at night, and when pressured on it, milk has done little but flail and call those pushing him scum. He has not given an alternative narrative as to what happened, or even shown support for one of the ones offered. He has simply pushed back on those applying pressure.
In addition, upon reading his ISO, the way milk interacts with RC does not feel natural. He starts out by calling him scum for no reason. Then he interacts with RC as though he thought RC was town, bouncing off him, sending him questions and not pushing his read at all. We enter D2 with milk saying that there is a possible narrative for town!RC. This does not feel like natural progression.
Milk is, based on this evidence, my strongest scumread by far and away.

[Inferno390]

Do you sr jingle?

I actually do not have an opinion on Jingle at the moment. I hadn’t paid much attention to the slot besides the fact that we had a mechanical and logic debate.
However, if what you are trying to say is that I can’t scumread you for the whole logic debacle of I don’t do the same for Jingle, the way you two approached that idea was very different, and whereas Jingle hasn’t said anything #966, afterwhich I pointed out the flaw in what he was saying, you are still flail-pushing against everything I say.

[Inferno390]

Certainly I can quote the post.

I'm fairly certain theres at least 1 scum between jp, rc, axe, and tchill

. So that's great. If I had to vote one of them right now it would be axe, but I dont trust my read there because its influenced by tone and theres a few things that dont match up with my internal logic. I dont think inferno has absolutely screamed scum since their first few posts but they havent pkayed well as town either. I do think they over reacted to their push, but that's nai atm. Will probably influence my read later post someone flipping. Honestly, I dont get the push on tchill. Seems more actually annoyed town than inferno did and RC tred inferno for that. Jp I dunno.. again mostly tone plus have they actually brought anything other than parroting? If they were lurking that would be one thing, but they post a good bit. Vork, what have they said scummy, someone whose tring them, what do you find good about them?

[Inferno390]

And yeah you’re not pushing Vork, but Vork did not push that read either. There’s a difference between saying things and actually pushing them.

[Inferno390]

I also like that you are calling me scummy for having no real reads other than Axe, but you more or less did the same thing D1 with Axe and Tchill.

[Inferno390]

Do you sr seal?

I’m null on him. I can’t decide if your weird interaction with him is just from you or two scum bouncing off of each other. And though his wagons and deathtunneling D1 were atrocious, I have not played with him enough to to decide if it was town!RC or scum!RC taking advantage of a poor town. Because let’s be honest a lot of things sucked yesterday from a lot of people. I probably need to ISO dive him to really be sure.

[Inferno390]

I guess I can't stop you from lynching chennis in favor of someone who is more sure scum huh

What is this supposed to mean?

[Inferno390]

Oh you’re voting Egix. Why is Egix likely scum again?

[Inferno390]

I fail to see how this game has become me and Chen vs. the world.
Unless there is a back and forth I have significantly missed.

[Inferno390]

I sus milk and Chen to a lesser extent.

[Inferno390]

If you're going to push me as conftown l will just selfvote and play in other games.

Isn’t that playing against wincon?
And you are anything but conftown.

[Inferno390]

He is not conftown.
Nothing has confirmed him as Town.

[Inferno390]

I don't think it's playing against my win condition.

The alternative is to completely derail this game and still get lynched and town ends up losing later anyway.

At least this way I might win later.

See this is why your play disgusts me. If someone scumreads you you threaten to self-vote and then say it isn’t against your wincon because your other option is to completely derail the game? This is such a self centered way to play, and after the total debauchery of D1, no one (and I literally mean NO ONE) should be listening to you right now regardless of your alignment. I don’t trust you to win this game at all. I trust you to frick it up even more. And your response to getting scumread is to make things HARDER for Town? That is such anti-town play.

[Inferno390]

I said I townread him the whole time because I didn't want to be scumread for the whiplash going from inferno-tchill. I did scumread inferno at the time and became less sure of it and decided to check elsewhere. Still leaning town on inferno for other reasons but I would 100% like for at least one of inferno Jingle to be lynched before endgame

What actual BS is this
You very clearly said that it was a reaction test and that I was Town
Is this backpedal?

[Inferno390]

Hmm
I think my lynchpool is {milk, Vork, Chen, Gantt?} in that order. I’m going to have to look at Gantt and Vork’s ISO before that’s set into stone.
And I still need to ISO RC and Jingle.

[Inferno390]

The above post really pings me.

[Inferno390]

The above post really pings me.

Why

and why MLK or JP instead of Vork?

Three reasons
The idea that working with someone involves sheeping them, especially given the way D1 went
“This is my first game and I’m Town” feels like a LAMIST response to your question.
The idea that Gantt would call his interaction with Vork as “leading” bothers me.

And I am perfectly okay with a Vork lynch today. I’m not even sure on Gantt rn, and he’s on the bottom of my lynchpool. I’d much rather see a milk flip because I strongly feel his reaction today to be not Town-oriented in the least, which combined with narrative and D1, makes the most sense to me. But if I had to choose between Vork and someone other than milk right now, I’d be okay with Vork.

[Inferno390]

Crap so much has happened.
I really need to read Vork's ISO and decide whether this wagon is even worthwhile or not.

[Inferno390]

It takes 6 to lynch, right?
So both of these guys are at L-2.

Hm.
I'm going to sleep on this for now and get back to you guys tomorrow.

Also,

@Mod: V/LA starting Thursday through Monday.

[Inferno390]

I think it’s a possiblity.
That’s a very poorly worded question. Do we think that Vork is town? Do we think Vork is possibly scum? Do we think that Vork is likely scum?
What exactly are you asking here?

[Inferno390]

Politely asking you to not join games that I'm in in the future buki

What is wrong with you.

[Inferno390]

I’m a VT.
I also have no time for this game rn. I’ll be back to actually read crap eventually.
@Milk, since I’m not caught up, what are the scum teams?

[Inferno390]

Serial killer

VOTE: Gantt

[Inferno390]

That is 1/8 people triggered.

Triggered as in it can literally not exist?
Because it can’t

[Inferno390]

Tell me why it can't exist.

Because as far as I’m aware
You can’t have an SK in a mini normal.

[Inferno390]

Yeah and also just checked
No third parties in a mini normal

[Inferno390]

UNVOTE:

[Inferno390]

I just read your logic Milk
It doesn’t work
You’re assuming too much
RC flip does not confirm Gantt
Jingle flip doesn’t confirm neighborizer.

[Inferno390]

Then they are more reasons that you are wrong
Which is why we shouldn’t follow your plan

[Inferno390]

It's really an easy path to follow. Selfish town player wants to look cool. Gets lucky one of 5 times. Other players follow his lead because they'd like to look cool. Town play on site dips dramatically due to ego and refusal to work with others. Set up mods have to justify town sided setups.

1 plus 1 equals 2.

QFT

[Inferno390]

That’s because it was bad Town play and you are not a strong Town player.
Town won this game despite you, RC, even if you managed to manipulate lynches in our favor.
You want proof?

VOTE: tchill13

I townread inferno btw

Think this read as scum with his hands in the cookie jar

Think davesaz immediate concern about me bussing may be town

Believe it or not

His reaction if he were scum would be a lot scummier

I fricked you D1. Your solo gambit not only failed, it failed brilliantly.
If this isn’t an indication of how poor this playstyle is, then I don’t know what to say.

[Inferno390]

Except I didn’t tactically replace out
I replaced out because I was tired of being called scum for no reason
You think I would have gotten to come back into the game had I replaced out tactically?
Do you think I would not be banned if I did such a thing?

[Inferno390]

I replaced out because the wagon on me from you and Axe was BS and everyone knew it, but you were too much of a jerk to actually back off
And it’s not fun to get lol read regardless of alignment
And 296 shows that “you tactically replaced out and I fell for it” is you covering your butt postgame because you know I’m scum.

[Inferno390]

I replaced out because I was tired of being called scum for no reason

JP had a decent case on you though.

I didn’t replace out because of JP.
I replaced out because of RC and Axe.

[Inferno390]

if you really think that you fooled me check out what happens next time you roll scum against me.

What, because every time we play you’re going to lol tunnel me until I replace out?
You are being ridiculous. You screwed up. You know it.

[Inferno390]

i just don't like to present tactical replacing as a reason for reads in the current era of tactical replacing being common.

Tactically replacing is BANNABLE.
I’m not going to go risking bans over anything.

[Inferno390]

I understand Tchill's salt
I don't really understand Inferno's salt

I’m frustrated because RC is never going to own up to his BS. And players like me, who want to play real games without BS solo gambits and fake reads, have to deal with the fallout of it.

[Inferno390]

Tactical replace outs or not, replacing out because being pressured is an unethical move regardless of the alignment.

If the game is being made unfun by other players for you and making it impossible for you to play the game, would you sit there and let them do it to you?
The pressure was not the problem. The problem was the pressure was BS and RC and Axe were refusing to interact with me. Regardless of alignment, the game was quite literally making me furious, and I didn’t want to play against that crap.

[Inferno390]

Yeah inferno that was pretty shitty. It really shows because you replaced back in after losing pressure.

If I was a mod you'd be reprimanded for that sort of thing.

And you don't get to pick and choose who's bs is worse. BS is bs regardless.

I replaced back in because RC came out with his “oh I was making shit up” story.
The pressure had nothing to do with it. I don’t care about pressure as long as it’s real pressure.