Open 76 - Polygamist Mafia (Over!) before 604

[bionicchop2]

confirm

[bionicchop2]

Yeh you just directly stole my pre-game suggestion.

Anyway, i'm with KS.

How would he steal your pregame suggestion unless you were paired with him?

Ok. Well we both thought of it independantly then...I think Gor/Far are probably town for that reason.

Then you half clear them based on 1 post?

FOS Xtoxm;FOS KS

I will wait to state my partner until everybody agrees. I assume most pairs had a similar idea. My parnter and I were hoping to have some more discussion so we could try to figure out the pairs and then have the pair reveal a little later. Scum could have come in with predetermined pairs out of their 4, but we could have possibly caught them associating with others in the group by accident before revealing their made up pairs.

I see no disadvantage to pair revealing, but was just hoping it wouldn't be the first thing done.

[bionicchop2]

quick question - was your post that was mod edited where you made the suggestion? If so, then my FOS isn't needed.

[bionicchop2]

The flat refusal to claim your pair even when you state that there is no disadvantage is definitely odd.

I was pretty much just waiting for my platonic mate to make a post and confirm we were in agreement. I figured I could use the time to try and draw out anybody who would be opposed to the claims and make note of who was against it.

And your comments on those xtoxm quotes seem to be trying to imply x/gor as scum together?

Would have been if X hadn't made a post / edited out the same suggestion. I was trying to figure out how gor would steal a pregame idea from him otherwise. That is sorted out and the FOS is no longer applicable. As a matter of formality

unFOS Xtoxm

as my initial suspicion is gone.

[bionicchop2]

You don't see any validity in wanting to draw out a debate about claiming partners as opposed to people just jumping into the thread and claiming them? It was the first opportunity where we could see if anybody would try to push the anti-town view of not claiming. Now we have lost the chance to debate the topic and look for any tells anybody might give. You guys basically came in and said 'town is going to do this' and did it. Now scum just needs to follow along.

[bionicchop2]

To be honest, I felt that Bionic was going to start going on a rampage, promptly telling everyone that claiming lovers is anti-town, just to see how many people he gets to agree with him, then turn around, claim lovers with me, say it was all one big trap to see who agreed with him, and hope everyone believes him.

While Bionic informed me such is his playstyle, I feel that it would have gotten him (and consequently me) lynched.

I said I was aggressive, not stupid!

I would never say I believe something just to see who follows and then backtrack. Trapping is scummy no matter how you look at it.

Don't worry little buddy, we can mend our relationship. Think of the children!

[bionicchop2]

My apologies. You can return to your regularly scheduled Magic 8-ball humor.

[bionicchop2]

I hit quote on that post about 4 times and never ended up posting anything. I was thinking it was scummy to worry too much about making mistakes, but his recent registration date makes me think it isn't really a tell.

[bionicchop2]

I am completely stumped as to how we proceed with this game. I can see this turning into a long stale mate.

I will cast a minor

FOS dcorbe

and minor

FOS Qmaan

Dorbe reasons: Came in and asked the mod to prod his 'partner' as his first post (post 69). If he left that alone, I would have thought the only way a mod could know who his partner was is if he only had 1 partner. He then immediately revealed his partner in the next post. Makes it seem like the first post was a ploy to give the impression I got initially. Could also just be that he realized everybody was claiming partners. The 4 post flurry just felt wrong though.


Qmaan reasons: Mostly just post #73. To come in and say he was going to suggest it also and thinks it is pro town seemed unnecessary. By then it was clear it was agreed upon and seen as pro town, so it could be just an attempt to blend in, but trying way too hard.


Both are minor, but I think a good starting point for discussion. I would say Qmaan slightly more than dcorbe right now.

[bionicchop2]

While I understand where you are coming from, it's slightly ... off.. to suspect me for agreeing a massclaim was the thing to do. I would have posted it earlier than i did if it weren't for the holiday weekend. Lets not forget you were the only one that came out against the idea. It might indeed be unnecessary, but it was the first thought that went though my head when i thought about the setup, it would be foolish to not massclaim partners.

Care to explain why at first, i have the lesser of two FoS put on me, then you say I'm the better starting point?

I never once said I was against the idea. I agreed, but felt a delay would have been appropriate. I thought that was clear.

The reason I FOS'd is because it always makes me a little uneasy when somebody says something that is implied by the nature of being townie (ie: damn we lost the doctor type posts). The FOS is minor because that line of reasoning for my votes has proven wrong before - but it has also proven correct before. IMO I need to pair that with some other sort of tell before I gain confidence in it. Definitely worth noting as a starting point though.

As for why you - I never once said you had the lesser of the 2 FoS. The order was just in the order of who posted. I read dcorbe first, so I posted him first. His posting pattern seems slightly more hyper-active than scummy, but I thought his 4 posts were worth discussing.

[bionicchop2]

sorry about the wait,i cant see anyt scumminess myself but it has been a great read (blows a kiss to qman )

Wow, three game pages and no suspicion?!?!? GASP! [/sarcasm]

Seriously, I smell townie-attempting.

Vote: W_F

Pair that with the townie attempt vibe I got from Qman and we might be onto something.

Very vague right now since nobody else seemed to get the same feel as I originally did with Qman and I didn't get the same vibe on my first read of W_F.

[bionicchop2]

I'm not sure why I seem to be the only one seeing problems with bionicchop and zombieslayer but they continue to throw up red flags for me, especially the recent post 87 which is using heaps of WIFOM to smear a newbie.

Vote: ZombieSlayer54

We just happen to be the most active right now IMO (as far as both partners posting). If you can honestly look at Dcorbe's posts and say they seemed perfectly townie, then good on you. I have already semi-dismissed them as just inexperience. I don't fault my partner if he isn't as quick to be as lenient as I was.

[bionicchop2]

Got prodded.

vote Farside for voting me

seriously?

I am not sure how helpful a 'random' or OMGUS vote is at this point. I am pretty sure we bypassed that stage of the game.

[bionicchop2]

Interesting. So if I were to vote for you, how would you solve that dilemma?

[bionicchop2]

I'm not sure why I seem to be the only one seeing problems with bionicchop and zombieslayer but they continue to throw up red flags for me, especially the recent post 87 which is using heaps of WIFOM to smear a newbie.

Vote: ZombieSlayer54

We just happen to be the most active right now IMO (as far as both partners posting). If you can honestly look at Dcorbe's posts and say they seemed perfectly townie, then good on you. I have already semi-dismissed them as just inexperience. I don't fault my partner if he isn't as quick to be as lenient as I was.

Being active =/= townie.

I'll read over tonight when i get home.

I never said it did. I just said we have said the most, so it is easy for what we have said to be dissected as 'scummy'.

[bionicchop2]

I'm not sure why I seem to be the only one seeing problems with bionicchop and zombieslayer but they continue to throw up red flags for me, especially the recent post 87 which is using heaps of WIFOM to smear a newbie.

Vote: ZombieSlayer54

As OMGL's partner, and as a newbie myself, Im with im on this one.

Vote: ZombieSlayer54

Grimmy
protekt da noobies!!

I guess for all intents and purposes, OMGL is going to get to put 2 votes wherever he wants since you have made it clear you will do no thinking for yourself this game.

[bionicchop2]

Just remember there is no reason to rush anything since there is no night phase. Town can only die by lynching incorrectly. If a train picks up speed this early, warning signs should go off. One pair voting together is not scummy, so I don't really have anything on Grimmy / OMGL, but keep your eye on which pairs start to jump on next (if they do)

[bionicchop2]

You're just upset because team awesome caught you already.

I presume that before the day is out most if not all teams will be voting together.

Xtoxm, is there anything aside from voting for you thats making farside scummy?

Had I known that was your nickname, I would have been more eager to follow you even though he is my partner.

[bionicchop2]

I am shocked and amazed that you guys have figured the game out within 113 posts of the game starting. You must be really good at this.

I fail to see what Zombie posted that was scummy in your mind. Dcorbe is inexperienced and his statements were potentially scummy. I still feel it is just inexperience, so I am not voting for him.

My caution about watching who follows up with votes is pretty simple if you look at game setup.

12 players. 8 town , 4 scum. On an incorrect lynch wagon, there will be 6 town maximum and at least 1 scum. The player partnered with the incorrect lynch will not vote (in this case me). If the votes manage to get up to 6, it would be hard for you to convince me that those were 3 pairs of townies.

Call it OMGUS all you want, but you can't deny that on an improper lynch, there will be scum on the wagon. With that in mind, all people voting need to provide clearly stated reasons and any who seem to jump on without justification certainly deserve to be questioned about it.

If there is a day 2, it will be LYLO. The end results of day 1 aren't all that important

if

the voting process is drawn out enough for valuable information to be gained. I would definitely want everybody to be posting actively with content before even getting close to a lynch. There is zero pressure on town at all today, so nobody should be in a rush for anything.

I would even be inclined to go with a no lynch on day 1 to guarantee an extra day of gathering information. With no night kill possible there is no downside for town to remain patient and thoroughly discuss everything.

[bionicchop2]

Isn't overly aggressive behavior generally considered a scum tell too?

To answer this question, scum can be overly aggressive, but townies often are also. Each player has their own style. You will find it just as common for scum to be very passive and agreeable so they don't draw any attention.

I am of the opinion that no one tell on its own is ever good enough to be certain. In most games, you can take a single 'tell' and follow it through to a lynch since it is hard to get much more the first day. After that I like to have multiple reasons for lynching somebody.

[bionicchop2]

Bionic yours is mostly because you are defending your partner before he's able to defend himself. Stop that, it looks scummy. (At least to me)

In a game where partners are known, I plan to defend him unless I have no clue what he is talking about. I personally would not have FOS'd everybody voting for me, but when you are town it is easy to suspect players who attack you.

[bionicchop2]

Bionic yours is mostly because you are defending your partner before he's able to defend himself. Stop that, it looks scummy. (At least to me)

I don't find it scummy, town lovers know each other are innocent.

scum lovers know each other are scum. your point?

Not giving zomb a chance to defend himself... himself.. bothers me. I can't quite figure out why in my head but it does. It's along the lines of "DO you think your partner is that incompetent, or are you in a minor panic to bat this down"

It can't be a case of me being online a fair amount of time and the only recent posts in the thread involve my partner? The only other option is to read and not post anything. The only people posting have posted against my partner and by default against me. You have to see that my hands are slightly tied as to what I can post about. 4 active posters have votes on my partner (I think you are the only 1 without and you have FOS'd us). This means I cannot suspect or vote anybody without it being OMGUS. When I did make note to watch for pile on voters, I was told it was a scum tell.

Everybody seems pretty sure they have found a scum pair based on <10 posts by zombie. That is fine. Suspect away. I think what would be a bigger tell than 2 announced partners agreeing / defending would be when players start to slip up and agree too much with someone who isn't their announced partner.

[bionicchop2]

I think there is a difference between defending your partner and blindly following them on an accusation.

[bionicchop2]

Just and FYI - FoSing somebody you already have a vote on is pretty redundant.

[bionicchop2]

mod

- can we get a few prods. I think water_foul and K7 haven't posted in a while.

[bionicchop2]

That is not the point Zombie. If people find one person as part of the love connection scummy they should be talking for themselves. Having your lover come in to ward things off could be because he knows your newb and wants to take pressure off you.

Let me ask you this - if you come in to read the game and feel like posting, but the only posts are directed at the 1 person you know 100% sure to be town, what do you do? Or if the current topic is your partner, do you just lurk (and of course get accused of being a scummy lurker)?

My goal is to win the game. If my partner gets lynched, then I don't get to play anymore and I rely on the people who mislynched my partner to not screw up again the next day. I would expect him to do the same for me. If I speak incorrectly about what I assume he meant, I have no doubt he will correct me.

My name is attached to the current lynch and you can be sure I am going to do everything in my power to prevent it. Unlike most games where the goal as town is not just to not get lynched, I feel it is pretty damn important to not get lynched in this game.

[bionicchop2]

That is not the point Zombie. If people find one person as part of the love connection scummy they should be talking for themselves. Having your lover come in to ward things off could be because he knows your newb and wants to take pressure off you.

Let me ask you this - if you come in to read the game and feel like posting, but the only posts are directed at the 1 person you know 100% sure to be town, what do you do? Or if the current topic is your partner, do you just lurk (and of course get accused of being a scummy lurker)?

My goal is to win the game. If my partner gets lynched, then I don't get to play anymore and I rely on the people who mislynched my partner to not screw up again the next day. I would expect him to do the same for me. If I speak incorrectly about what I assume he meant, I have no doubt he will correct me.

My name is attached to the current lynch and you can be sure I am going to do everything in my power to prevent it. Unlike most games where the goal as town is not just to not get lynched, I feel it is pretty damn important to not get lynched in this game.

I don't expect you to sit and do nothing. What is needed is Zombie to come in and say something as well. If you look at his post my point was basically thus:
People find zombie scummy. If people find him scummy then him posting to defend himself helps determine if he is scummy. You as his partner can look town and do well for him, but could be scum (more experienced player) who can talk yourself out of being lynched. Now do you see the problem?

I see your point and agree he should defend himself in addition (I think he has). You also have to take into account that there aren't scum pairs, but 4 scum. In a setup where 1 scum lynch is all that is needed, you would expect a little more dissent against the zombie lynch. What you have now is him and I defending him with the rest of the active players attacking. It is cooled off a bit with some players at least trying to look at other options.

This game will not be won for town by finding 1 person who looks scummy.

[bionicchop2]

We wait. Of course, the odds of that are VERY slim. Scum, in general, act like scum.

I did NOT like Bionic's last post.

You could at least clarify what you didn't like about it. There have been many posts I haven't liked, but without reason, the statement means nothing.

[bionicchop2]

you would expect a little more dissent against the zombie lynch (if he was scum)

EBWOP (parenthesis added for clarification)

[bionicchop2]

Have you thoughts on who is coming across as scummy?

I still have some doubts about Qman, but most of my suspicion there is temporarily dissipated.

Xtoxm for his OMGUS vote on you. We bypassed the random voting stage and I don't feel votes should just be thrown around with little reason. It is not hard to make even a minor case that goes beyond 'they just feel scum' type of arguments.

Other than those, nothing major is sticking out. The latest round of prods seemed to help this thread though, so things should progress a bit.

[bionicchop2]

Adel replaces water_foul. Let's all give a cheer.

ummm, yeah. adel was replaced by panzer already, so they know somebody else's role PM.

[bionicchop2]

Welcome adel. Mind refreshing our memory who your partner is?

[bionicchop2]

sorry Adel. I think that was the vote I was keeping my eye open for. The others seemed believable and had reasons (even if I don't agree) or were going with their partner, but yours was trash.

vote Adel

Please give a detailed outline of your reasoning and 1 person you think is his partner besides me.

[bionicchop2]

Third vote count of Day 1

ZombieSlayer54(5): OhGodMyLife, Grimmy, dcorbe, Panzerjager, Adel

water_foul(1): Gorrad
Xtoxm(1): farside22
farside22(1): Xtoxm

Not voting: bionicchop2, killa seven, Qman, ZombieSlayer54

12 alive, 7 to lynch




Deadline still june 30

Gorrad - your vote for water_foul is technically on Adel now. Just a heads up if you don't intend to vote for them. You FoS'd adel, so I assume you just want to FoS at this point.

Fixed in VC
-Cow

[bionicchop2]

So pointing out that a no lynch can actually be favorable to town in this game is scummy? If that was so obvious, there wouldn't be 5 votes on a player within 7 pages (5 real according to your astute observations) of day 1 in a likely 2 day game.

[bionicchop2]

I am not ready for this to turn into a wagon race though

UNVOTE ADEL

Major FOS ADEL

[bionicchop2]

Adel, like me, did not count what vote hers would be, so I don't think she meant to set up a quicklynch possibility.

you sure?

ZS is scum. one more vote and we are done with this game.

the game is only seven pages, and the first two pretty much don't count.

it seems really clear to me.

[bionicchop2]

Also, if ZS/Bionic DO flip town my vote will be on Adel in a heartbeat.

There is a risk in that too. If Adel is town, scum could pile on and then try to pin the blame on her.


At the end of the day, it is not about me or my partner getting lynched, it is about me or my partner not getting lynched this far away from deadline with only 7 pages to work with. I would like to be as close to deadline as possible when the final vote is put on anybody. The more posts people make, the more likely they are to slip up. Obviously I prefer not to be lynched at all, but we can't always get what we want.

Can anybody see a benefit to lynch as quickly as Adel is pushing for? That is why I voted. Fast lynch does not favor town in any way. An incorrect lynch is far less damaging if there is ample dialog to review the next day.

[bionicchop2]

Yeah, because at that point it was L-2, not L-1.

Seems like she already made the assumption her partner (or partners) would be voting. The point is she thought she put him at L-1.

[bionicchop2]

Adel:

Please outline in detail the advantages of lynching right now. Also outline in detail your argument against Gorrad and Farside.

[bionicchop2]

Adel:

Please outline in detail the advantages of lynching right now. Also outline in detail your argument against Gorrad and Farside.

I understand you missed this post when responding to my other post. Your attention is appreciated.

[bionicchop2]

I think I read somewhere that intentionally avoiding questions was scummy

VOTE ADEL

Not unvoting until my question is responded to.

[bionicchop2]

Agreeing with DCorbe on 231.

Seriously, Adel? Never ask a question unless you are ready to say way you asked it.

lol!

how would a person ever trap scum if they had to explain

how

they were trapping scum before the possible scum player had to answer?

Confirm Vote: Adel

for the ultra lame attempt to fish for scum tells.

I know my vote is on Adel, but that is a pretty weak reasoning there dcorbe. Players ask questions and other players answer them. That is how the game is played. Either that or we can stare at each others names and see if we can rearrange the letters into something scummy. Each of us have our own ways of trying to find scum and asking weird questions to spark discussion is certainly a valid one. The question shouldn't be if you think the fishing for scum tells is

lame

, it should be if you think it is

genuine

. If you think they were genuinely fishing for scum tells, it doesn't matter how lame you think it is, you shouldn't vote for them. If they were trapping town with questions that can only have scummy answers, that would be completely different.

I can't tell if they are genuine or not, but right now they feel scummy - mostly because my question earlier was avoided and the attacks on my partner seems to be based on convenience more than fact.

I am torn between staying there or going back to my original suspicion on you. I gave you the benefit of the doubt based on your recent join date, but I know that means very little. I technically have not completed a game on this site yet, so you are no newer than I am. Some of the things you are saying just aren't sitting well with me.

[bionicchop2]

*sigh*. Dcorbe, you refusing to answer the question is significantly more scummy than Adel asking it.

gorrad used less words to say the same thing.

[bionicchop2]

Bullshit, as an IC, I'm also for not telling.

Bullshit, as the person who designed this setup, I have some insight into the specifics of this scenario.
When the entire town is made of up lovers, you certainly can ask and exect an answer, and I;m mystified by the audacity of you and our partner's avoidance.

maybe they need to wait to coordinate with the other 2...

[bionicchop2]

Is everybody in this game from SD? I guess that is why we all start posting around 8 am. Just moved from downtown to north park.

[bionicchop2]

Mod

- is it against the rules to cut / paste my entire quicktopic conversation?

[bionicchop2]

I think rule # 4 prohibits me from clipping my conversation in here. Our quicktopic thread had 14 posts. 2 from cow, 7 from me and 5 from zombie

I first said hello and asked him what we should be looking for since I have never played this setup before.

He suggested we just come out and state we are lovers. I said I was fine with that, but wanted somebody else to suggest it first.

Then we tried to figure out how to communicate to each other if groups did not reveal so we could tell each other who we thought was paired together since we would not be allowed to directly talk.

Finally I suggested a no lynch and we both agreed it would be a good idea because as a minimum it could help us find scum since scum would probably be against it. Obviously the mod has stated that is not allowed (stated in this thread).

I am happy to know my partner and I will possibly be punished for using the tools given to us.

[bionicchop2]

4. Do not quote private communications with me or with other players. This includes your role PM. Breaking this rule will result in a modkill.

Yeah, I saw it. I didn't see anything in my PM about the quicktopic thread, but I reread the rules after and assume I am prohibited. I paraphrased the main ideas we discussed since I have already presented everything in thread except for the system we were going to use to communicate pairs to each other.

[bionicchop2]

I think rule # 4 prohibits me from clipping my conversation in here. Our quicktopic thread had 14 posts. 2 from cow, 7 from me and 5 from zombie

Wait a minute.. WHAT!?

The lovers are PAIRED

I think you just gave the game away.. Nice job, duck.

Unvote
Vote: ZombieSlayer

look at our mod and look at what his picture is. Then think. Then realize that 'cow' is our mod who made the quick topic. 1 to open it. 1 to tell us we could no longer post there.

[bionicchop2]

now that you realize your mistake, would you mind unvoting? Unless of course you still think zombie (and me) is (are) scum.

[bionicchop2]

understood.

[bionicchop2]

oh god. If dcorbe starts arguing for zombie not to get lynched I might as well pack my bags now.

[bionicchop2]

Also: If I get lynched, go for Adel tomorrow. I think it should be painstakingly obvious that you should.

I disagree. I also forgot to

UNVOTE ADEL

after they posted their reasoning yesterday. Could still be scum, but right now I am convinced otherwise. I think the logic to think town has nothing to talk about pregame without knowing the specific players you are accusing is flawed. Adel doesn't know me and doesn't know how I think. If I have a chance to discuss a game with somebody prior to it starting, I will. If I was a mason in a normal game, I would talk to my mason before the game and find out how they play and what they want to look for during the game. I would also discuss the setup if it was known. The first several players who entered the thread said they talked pregame - because they agreed with their partners to partner reveal at the beginning. Even your Qman tried to have a conversation with water_foul, but w_f sucks at life and didn't even check the thread.

I have never played with or talked to ZS before. I don't see anything scummy in introducing myself, getting thoughts on the atypical setup, finding out how he plays and warning him I can be aggressive. I told him I would tone it down because normally it is just my neck on the line (I am also working on a less aggressive play style which seems to be slightly more effective for me - my aggression was proving to catch more townies than anything).

With all that said, Adel has reasons to vote. They came in and seemed like they were just going for a convenience lynch. While I think Adel is wrong, I think the scum hunting is genuine.

[bionicchop2]

Compare your conversation with the conversation biochomp and ZS claim they had: what are the major differences?

Mine was truthful

K, Hi guys, I'm back again. Read the thread, sorta kinda and got a general idea of the situation. So here it goes, I'll play with you Adel. Last time I checked the Quicktopic, There was 3 post, 1 from Cow, 1 from DCorbe 1 from me.

I never checked back

to see his reply because I don't really give enough of a shit and figure I'd have to bail him out of shit. Cow said hi Start Talking, DC said that he's never night talked with a townie before, I said We Claim, He then replyed(

which I never got until just now, to verify post count

) No we'll get NKed. This confirms my intial suspisicion of having a bum partner, and there's your answer. 5 post if you count Cows Go and Stop posts.

So did he or did he not check back? Did he really need to verify the post count if the post count was 3? Would he need to verify if he indeed did not 'really give enough of a shit'?

I don't know if anybody else feels this is the most concocted 'conversation' they have ever seen, but it sure seems like it. Mostly the 'oh gee I have never night talked with a townie before' comment after Adel made a long post about how townies would have no reason to night talk in this game.

So for no reason, panz decides he 'has a bum partner' and instead of using the QT thread to help dcorbe out and explain the setup to him, he just ignores it and plans to bail his partner out? Not buying it.

If this conversation is indeed true, it tells me 2 things:

1. If dcorbe made the night kill comment (he did ask this in thread), that justifies me pointing out the game basic fact there is no NK (others were not aware of it either) and we can move slow. I don't think dcorbe really said this, but you never know when some townie doesn't quite understand the game mechanics of the specific setup.

2. Panz is pretty lame if he had a new partner and instead of trying to help him pre-game he would rather wait and make fun of him during the game.

I think this is all a planned act. Dcorbe can come in and do whatever acting inexperienced. The fact is, I am just as 'inexperienced' as dcorbe is (he is actually in more games than I am). I am not buying into this little act they have going on.

VOTE DCORBE

I would vote panz, but dcorbe already has a vote and it doesn't matter. Here are my outlined reasons:

1. Panz / dcorbe stated pre-game conversation seems contrived. If dcorbe came out and said he never talked with a townie at night before as his first post, I think most players would have a better response and would take the time to help their partner understand the game mechanics.

2. It took 1 day from panz to change from 'bullshit we don't need to tell you what we talked about' to telling everything they talked about. He conveniently did so after Adel said the information was being used to clear players.

3. Residual early game suspicions about dcorbe.

4. The conversation outlined about doesn't seem to fit this piece of the puzzle in:

On a second note, Bionic, Dcorbe is just an excited noobie, he said so in our lover conversation in between the screams and moans, anyway I am with you in believing that he is hyperactive. And I can assure you he isn't scum.

5. Dcorbe was concerned that Adel would 'know his role' from the previous game PM. I asked the same question because I thought it would be odd if Adel had 2 role PMs sitting in their inbox. He seemed concerned Adel would know his affiliation. If he is telling the truth, then we all know his affiliation and he would want a 3rd person to be able to confirm it.



If I had to guess, I would put X and K7 as the 3rd and 4th scum.

[bionicchop2]

Dcorbe, Panzer would be at LEAST three times more town than you in my opinion, had it not been for the fact that y'all are linked. Also, if there's two town lynches, we lose! Or did you not worry about that.

Seriously, let's just lynch Dcorbe or ZS and be done with this game ><. Not to be impatient, but the level of hate vibes in here is really throwing off my groove.

How is that possible with 12 of us alive and 4 scum?

D1: 12 - 2 = 10:4
D2: 10 - 2 = 8:4
D3: 8-2 = 6:4
D4: Game over.

we are at 8:4 right now. Day 2 if needed would be 6:4

[bionicchop2]

I do find it a little odd you didn't know the setup well enough to know how many town there are, but you knew how many scum there are.

[bionicchop2]

I change my prediction to gorrad and his partner being scum with dcorbe and panz. Panz's nice lenghty post comprised completely of twisting my words and assumptions about the way I think only confirm my suspicions.

[bionicchop2]

I change my prediction to gorrad and his partner being scum with dcorbe and panz. Panz's nice lenghty post comprised completely of twisting my words and assumptions about the way I think only confirm my suspicions.

Why do you think gorrad and I as scum. Why do you think dcorbe and panz along with it?
As adel pointed out. Scum wouldn't be voting against there own because then scum loses.

gorrad's proclamation about how 'townie' panz looks after his last post just seems off. As for the vote against dcorbe, it isn't bussing unless they get lynched. I think dcorbe has 2 votes and no momentum against him. The 'panz is too town for dcorbe to be scum' will be the reason whatever vote is pulled off in the near future.

I would like everybody to read the change in tone that panz has had since Adel started pressing dcorbe. He has gone out of his way to compliment Adel on how good they play. He obviously respects their play and is trying to relieve pressure on one of his partners.

He went from arguing he has no reason to answer to saying it is good to just go with the flow and say what they talked about in a matter of 1 post. He had to check and verify the posts that were in there even though he said he only posted once. His latest post says he expects his partner to be able to read the game setup and figure things out, but his partner had already asked about night kills. He could have at least told him there were no night kills.

He asked a good question - why would he care if Adel knew his role PM? Well, dcorbe seemed to care. He would only really care if he was scum.

[bionicchop2]

bio:

ask about xtoxm comment and FOS xtoxm for Gorrad's 1 post idea. Bio didn't want to state his partner till everyone agreed. Claims that him and his partner wanted to wait to claim, but I'm unclear why.

[1]

Says he was waiting for his partner to post to confirm him. (I'm not buying this at all). Post 60 I think bio either is missing the point.

[2]

In my opinion debating the issue gives the scum more time to think to themselve which of the 4 of them should just claim first who there love partner is.

[3]

Why an FOS and not vote anyone (post 81),

[4]

Post 83 when did you agree with the idea exactly and why delay?

[5]

Also feel this post for why the FOS as I'm trying not to make waves.

[6]

question on post 114 do you believe that scum on the wagon would be aggresive or non aggresive in lynching a town person? Actually give # of post for private discussion.

[7]

Did anyone else find post 308 kissing Adel's butt or is that just me?

[1]

Reread my statement. I never said I needed my partner to confirm me. I said I wanted to make sure he agreed to just go ahead and claim now.

[2]

You make an assumption that scum didn't present the idea and scum would not already have expected this. I don't think any group of 4 would come into a game where town is paired and not have pairs already planned out. The role PMs in the intro do not state any day talk for scum, so I am not sure how they would be able to run off and coordinate who they are partnered with.

[3]

Do I really need to vote with my first posts based off limited information? I think an FOS is valid at any point in the game.

[4]

In my first post I agreed it was pro town and said me and my partner had hoped we would wait until further into the day. I figured that way we could see who acted as pairs and then see who claimed as pairs. We may find conflicting information and that may have given us a clue.

[5]

If I didn't want to make waves, I could do what half the players do and just never post anything of content, or just agree to do whatever anybody says to do. I don't see how anything I have posted could be construed as trying not to make waves. That wouldn't even be a scum tell if it were true.

[6]

Both. Aggressiveness or lack of are not a scum tell on their own.

[7]

disagreeing with somebody is kissing their butt? Why, because I unvoted? Or because I thought they were actually scum hunting even though completely wrong? When people vote with no reason, it looks scummy. When people vote by twisting words to make reasons, it looks scummy. When people use some semblance of logic - whether I agree or not - it tends to looks less scummy. I find it a little odd that you think I am kissing butt, but you overlook Panz in his blatent compliments of Adel.

[bionicchop2]

@Bionic - They aren't compliments if they are true.

???????

This is an incorrect statement. A compliment usually is true.

[bionicchop2]

Regardless, it was a compliment, yet I was accused of butt kissing by farside. That would fit along the lines of my thinking Dcorbe, Panz, gorrad and Farside are scum with farside being the scapegoat you all use. Play up the dcorbe is scummy because he is new, but panz is town so they can't be scum. They will attack dcorbe, but simply glaze over your posts.

Farside's 'analysis' is very telling. Lengthy portions about dcorbe (scapegoat), myself and zs (targets).

[bionicchop2]

with [dcorbe] being the scapegoat you all use.

EBWOP - wrote farside by accident.

[bionicchop2]

I didn't realize farside had more votes than dcorbe. Since I think both are together:

UNVOTE DCORDE;VOTE FARSIDE

[bionicchop2]

I didn't realize farside had more votes than dcorbe. Since I think both are together:

UNVOTE DCORDE;VOTE FARSIDE

This looks OMGUS especially after I call out that I find you scum with dcorde and panj.

unvote:
vote: ZombieSlayer

ummm...I called you out before your post sunshine. One might say your 'analysis' was OMGUS.

[bionicchop2]

Add one more post with an eyeroll and I will be convinced.

[bionicchop2]

unvote farside;vote killa seven

That is one convenient hop on.

[bionicchop2]

great, so now a personal vendetta is going to cloud the game. yay!

Can you ask for a replacement killah?

[bionicchop2]

unvote

until we get a replacement. Not going to leave farside at L-1 with a grudge vote on there, but will wait for killah's replacement to ahve a chance before voting there.

[bionicchop2]

I've talked with the Mod and agreed to stay since Killa has offered to leave the game. You may not put your heavy suspicion back on me bio.

I am not putting you back at L-1 unless there is a reason attached to the vote killah seven put on (when the replacement comes). If the vote is taken off, I will put you back at L-2 and we can resume our regularly scheduled bickering.

[bionicchop2]

While we wait here are some answers to your comments last page:
1) This is the quote:

I was pretty much just waiting for my platonic mate to make a post and confirm we were in agreement.

I took this to mean I'm waiting to see who wants claim me as my partner
(2) If scum presented the idea. What if they didn't. It's a bunch of what if's in my mind. I thought about what xtoxm did and realized it could have been done to catch scum unprepared
(3) What is wrong with voting for someone? It's not like they will be lynched first or you blamed for the lynch
(4) Good point. It could have panned out that way, but once again point two I show it is more like what if
(5) Players play nice and do things without making waves to hide under the radar as scum
(6) Agree
(7) You didn't disagree with Adel. You agreed with her and was like oh that is so true, blah, blah, blah

If you think dcorbe is my scum partner then why did his parnter just put me at L-2?

[1] All a matter of interpretation much like anything in this game. I try not to place votes based off a phrase that could mean more than 1 thing.

[2] That is my point. You assume they did when we have no reason to know that. Xtoxm actually posted the idea before the day started (I did not see the post) and then it was deleted. Anybody could have read his post before it was modified. You are assuming scum would not be prepared for a mass claim of partners. I think it would be more likely they would be prepared. Again, matter of opinion.

[3] What is wrong with FOSing? I never said a vote was wrong, but I only had minor suspicions that needed to be pushed further with the player(s) in question.

[4] No response needed. See [2]

[5]

some

players play nice when scum. Others aggressively attack everybody. Null tell. I personally am aggressive both as town and scum (see ZS comment about our pregame conversation) so somebody having the impression I am not making waves is a little bit of a surprise. I have toned back in all my games because I was overly aggressive and it was not productive.

[6] No response needed

[7] You really need to reread the post you are referencing:

Also: If I get lynched, go for Adel tomorrow. I think it should be painstakingly obvious that you should.

I disagree. I also forgot to UNVOTE ADEL after they posted their reasoning yesterday. Could still be scum, but right now I am convinced otherwise. I think the logic

to think town has nothing to talk about pregame without knowing the specific players you are accusing is flawed

. Adel doesn't know me and doesn't know how I think. If I have a chance to discuss a game with somebody prior to it starting, I will. If I was a mason in a normal game, I would talk to my mason before the game and find out how they play and what they want to look for during the game. I would also discuss the setup if it was known. The first several players who entered the thread said they talked pregame - because they agreed with their partners to partner reveal at the beginning. Even your Qman tried to have a conversation with water_foul, but w_f sucks at life and didn't even check the thread.

I have never played with or talked to ZS before. I don't see anything scummy in introducing myself, getting thoughts on the atypical setup, finding out how he plays and warning him I can be aggressive. I told him I would tone it down because normally it is just my neck on the line (I am also working on a less aggressive play style which seems to be slightly more effective for me - my aggression was proving to catch more townies than anything).

With all that said, Adel has reasons to vote. They came in and seemed like they were just going for a convenience lynch.

While I think Adel is wrong

, I think the scum hunting is genuine.

Either you are confusing me with somebody else, referencing the wrong post, or intentionally being misleading about what I have posted. There are 2 instances where I obviously disagree in that post - both underlined. Zero instances of me agreeing to the assumptions Adel made.

[bionicchop2]

If you think dcorbe is my scum partner then why did his parnter just put me at L-2?

Ask him. Could be to raise that exact question or it is possible one of you is not scum. It doesn't prove or disprove anything.

[bionicchop2]

welcome zoraster. Now if you could unvote farside so I can put my vote back on, I would appreciate it

[bionicchop2]

Oh dear...

unvote

Bionic, what's this about unvote so I can vote? If you think someones scum you vote them.

Hey z.

I didn't want them at L-1 yet. I have seen too many people lynch without counting.

VOTE FARSIDE

The vote put on by K7 was a grudge vote. If it was a vote given with reason, I would have left farside at L-1. The key word in your statement is

think

. Yes, I think they are scum, but I do not know for certain or I would be pushing for everybody else to lynch. 5 votes is plenty of pressure to make the pair defend themselves. I am not against L-1, but again there should be a reason for the vote.

[bionicchop2]

See I asked this question for a reason

If you think dcorbe is my scum partner then why did his parnter just put me at L-2?

Response

Ask him. Could be to raise that exact question or it is possible one of you is not scum. It doesn't prove or disprove anything

.
What was said earlier when he voted for me.

I didn't realize farside had more votes than dcorbe. Since I think both are together:

UNVOTE DCORDE;VOTE FARSIDE

I'm looking at this oh I think dcorbe is scum, but since farside has a bigger wagon is just an excuse since I had vote and you are trying to distance yourself from dcorbe and help your partner.

Look at when my original vote was put on you (you had 3 , dcorbe had 2) and you will see that panz voted after I did (in fact the follow up post) and now you are trying to use that as a reason I shouldn't have voted for you? His vote also set up so he could pull it off later if you read his post. If you want to know why somebody put you at L-2, ask that person, not me. I put you at L-2 the 2nd time because I have a hunch you are scum and I think you need pressure on you. There are 3 pairs I am looking at carefully and I am not sure which 2/3 I really think are scum.

[bionicchop2]

@adel: only a few posts without a whole lot of content, most of which has already been discussed in depth in here.

This sheds some interesting light to your analysis Adel. You don't think town would talk pre-game, but K7 supposedly talked pre-game and barely participated at all in the actual game. Either they are town and it spoils your theory or they are scum and it supports your theory. I think it does neither since I am town and they could be scum.

[bionicchop2]

wow. that was unhelpful. haha

That was helpful though!

Go finish reading the game before acting like a 10 year old. My post was a follow up to an already in progress conversation about town talking prior to the start of the game and one of the reasons my partner has votes on them. My argument is that what Adel thinks is a scum tell is actually a null tell. If she still thinks it is a tell, then she should be wondering why 2 players who have lurked all game and contributed little had a pre-game conversation.

[bionicchop2]

No I'm saying you stated that you found dcorbe/ panj with myself and gor scum group. You voted for me saying I had more votes, which has nothing to do with why you think I'm scum. Now I'm asking you if you think gor and I are scum with dcorbe and panj why did he put me at L-2 because your theory is all based on us being scum group together.

Yes, I think there is a possibility you 4 are scum. I put my vote on the one with the most votes for the same reason people vote ZS instead of voting me. There is no reason to split votes.

I will tell you one more time I cannot begin to guess why Panz voted for you. It would be complete WIFOM to say that they would or would not vote for you if you were both scum together. You need to ask Panz about his vote if you want clarification. Using your argument, I cannot be scum with dcorbe, because he put ZS at L-2 the other day and I have voted for dcorbe. It just isn't as black and white as you are trying to make it.

[bionicchop2]

If you are wagoning for answers, zoraster might be a better route since they are new and have shown no hesitation to answer questions yet. I am not ready to abandon the farside wagon yet because I think their is still information to be gained there.

[bionicchop2]

I've read the whole thread. admittedly, I haven't studied all of the posts in depth because I prefer to retain my sanity, but I have the general gist of the arguments being made.

My point was that you made the following arguments:
Either 1. it helps Adel's theory or 2. it doesn't help Adel's theory. Then you say you think it's neither because because (a) we could be scum and (b) you're a townie.

The first part is unhelpful because all it states is that Adel is either wrong or right. That doesn't shed any light on the subject. The second part isn't helpful because all it states is that you're a townie and because of that we could be scum. Stating your alignment like that gets no one closer to the truth because everyone naturally claims townie, and you should probably know that.

But I'll try and respond to you. I don't, of course, have a real idea of what was going on behind the scenes before I came in, but I think it's natural for people just about to start a game to be more active than they are during the game because the excitement of a new game is highest at that point. In any case, as I said, the posts were very limited.

Anyway, I didn't bring up the unhelpfulness of your post to be a jerk. Rather, I question anyone who blows a lot of smoke without any point. In other words, trying very hard to appear helpful while not actually providing any relevant analysis.

I realized the 'either' part was misleading after I posted. I don't think it was blowing any smoke since it was being posted in my own defense. The point I was making is that the tell was not a tell. The first portion where I said 'either' was meant to be from Adel's perspective since they don't know my alignment. The 2nd part is from my perspective since I know my role.

Now, if you would have posted this post prior to the other one, it wouldn't have come across quite as snarky.

[bionicchop2]

@Adel:
Just an FYI. I noticed that xtoxm has gone quiet in all game recently. I'm not sure what is going on.

His signature says he has exams. He just asked to be replaced (and was) in one of my other games.

[bionicchop2]

@ Farside, what does the hop on / hop off from Panz do for your WIFOM defense?

Maybe now you can see why I am not quick to drop my vote because 1 person I think is scum put another person I think is scum at L-2.

@ Panz - it seems like any time Adel finds an action scummy you change your tune (refusal to answer questions, wagon on farside).

@ all - anybody a little suspicious that the farside wagon fell completely crumbled? Very little reason was given as to why people unvoted (or voted in the first place).

[bionicchop2]

FoS: Adel and Bionic Due to the reaction to farside being at 5..now to find out who I think is reacting honestly.

My reaction was to farside being at 6.

[bionicchop2]

Comments in bold

@ Farside, what does the hop on / hop off from Panz do for your WIFOM defense?

I almost felt like being as childish as you were in responding to my comments on him. I asked him not as WIFOM, but to see if you thought his vote was scummy. You didn't say so until it shifts to you.

Maybe now you can see why I am not quick to drop my vote because 1 person I think is scum put another person I think is scum at L-2.

Why do you think I'm scum?

@ Panz - it seems like any time Adel finds an action scummy you change your tune (refusal to answer questions, wagon on farside).

@ all - anybody a little suspicious that the farside wagon fell completely crumbled? Very little reason was given as to why people unvoted (or voted in the first place)

3 people unvote:
Adel voted for me for misunderstanding my comment. Unvote
xtoxm voted for me first and has not said anything to anyone. His vote was random in the first place
panz: scummiest unvote and vote. I'm not liking the vote hoping at all

.

I didn't expect Panz. to stay on anyway because they said it was 'for now'. I felt like you were trying to use their temporary vote as your defense. Why do I think you are scum? I will have to reread for full reasoning, but here is the summary - gorrad reading a post by panz I found completely scummy and then pretty much declaring him town. I change my mind on Dcorbe's possible partner based on this and you jump in with your 'scum wouldn't vote for each other' defense which you have used several times. Pointing out things I do as scummy while ignoring similar / more extreme cases by others. There may be others, but that is off the top of my head.

As for the 3 unvotes - Adel never said they misunderstood your comment. Panz I have said enough about.

[bionicchop2]

Well if you thought she was scum sincerely it wouldn't have mattered whether or not she was at 6 or 5. The closer scum is to being lynched the better right? So either you were just conforming or you were afraid that you scum team was about to be lynched. Which is my point and I am more suspicious that you were the scarred one and not Adel.

The refusal to answer question has nothing to do with Adel. The rest of the town decided claiming was good, thus the reason I played her game. Wagon on Farside I got on only to see your reaction, which has confirmed that you are scum with Gorrad. Can we lynch ZS now people?

How is that logical in any way?

1. I

think

she is scum and I am working to gain more information. I could be wrong.

2. You completely contradict yourself. You say I am scum with gorrad (farside's partner) yest you unvote farside who had more votes and vote for ZS. If you thought gorrad was scum as you just said, why would you go back to the wagon which has no momentum and jump off the one which is actively being discussed.

[bionicchop2]

The vote put on by K7 was a grudge vote. If it was a vote given with reason, I would have left farside at L-1. The key word in your statement is

think

. Yes, I think they are scum, but I do not know for certain or I would be pushing for everybody else to lynch. 5 votes is plenty of pressure to make the pair defend themselves. I am not against L-1, but again there should be a reason for the vote.

How is the keyword think? How is anyone 100% sure about anybody? There is only 1 surefire way to be 100%, thats to look at their role PM. Cops can lie or the mod can give them wrong results but thats as close to 100 you can get. Neither have happened and with your logic of not lynching until there is 100% sure they are scum, it's a wonder you lynch anyone.

Applying pressure to get more information can help me become more sure. There are 3 groups I think are very scummy. I can't be correct on all 3 can I? I think I have narrowed it down to 6 players in my mind and I would like to have more time to figure it out instead of somebody quicklynching by mistake. I also wanted a reason given for the 6th vote being put on or I was not putting my vote back on.

[bionicchop2]

wow ZS, you just made me dizzy with that post. Never seen 2 votes made in one post.

[bionicchop2]

I whole heartedly support any post that combines the words vote and panz.

UNVOTE FARSIDE;VOTE PANZ

I would like to know what zoraster thinks about panz.

[bionicchop2]

what's the vote tally right now?

Should be 5 on ZS, 4 on panz. I think that accounts for all of them.

[bionicchop2]

I whole heartedly support any post that combines the words vote and panz.

UNVOTE FARSIDE;VOTE PANZ

I would like to know what zoraster thinks about panz.

Wow we agree on something.

Calls hell and ask if they are cold.

Voting for somebody I have said I think is scum gets you a ten post pardon, but nothing more!

[bionicchop2]

At this point, if scum isn't ZS/dcorbe/Bionic/Panzer I'll be shocked.

Prepare to be shocked.

[bionicchop2]

what's the vote tally right now?

Should be 5 on ZS, 4 on panz. I think that accounts for all of them.

4 on me, 4 on panz, I think.

I think you are correct.

[bionicchop2]

Go ahead and pile on, and then when I flip town please take a careful look at Adel and the points I raised.

It's been a fun game.

Thanks.

-Daniel

I am confused because your most recent votes were against gorrad / farside and you only had minimal posts against Adel. Refresh my memory on the case again?

[bionicchop2]

EBWOP - I meant your most recent

posts

were against gorrad / farside

[bionicchop2]

You both completely ignored that 4 page argument I had with Adel.

I have argued with Adel also, but that does not mean I have outlined a case for them being scum. I think I have argued with everybody in this game.

There is a big difference between disagreeing with somebody and thinking they are scum. I have argued with farside for most of the day, but acknowledge there is a chance they are town.

[bionicchop2]

i'll reserve judgment on panz.

That seems scummy. Why would you reserve judgment when you were specifically asked about a player and they have 4 votes on them?

[bionicchop2]

anybody else getting a panz/dcorbe/zoraster/xtoxm vibe now?

I am not sure why zor would 'reserve judgment' on somebody with a lot of votes on them. Town is supposed to form opinions about people and try to hunt scum.

Now would be the best time to read his posts and read the posts of the people voting for him.

[bionicchop2]

@bio: are you being serious? if i'm put in the position of putting someone within hammer's reach of the mafia should he actually be innocent, then I think it pretty obvious I want to take my time and evaluate it carefully.

I am not saying to make a quick decision, but you clearly should be taking the time to read through what they have posted. I didn't ask you to vote for them or anything. If you have no opinion of the people who have the most votes on them, you are doing it wrong.

[bionicchop2]

zoraster - what is your

opinion

of panz? It isn't really a difficult question, but you are making it such. You aren't going to b castrated if your thoughts turn out to be incorrect. Different story if your thoughts are scummy. I can't figure out why you are using stall tactics right now.

[bionicchop2]

I would like to know what zoraster thinks about panz.

When I asked what you

think

I was not hoping for anything but your opinion.

[bionicchop2]

So if that's the case, where are these accusations even coming from?

I wanted to get his opinion on Panz and he is dancing around it instead of answering.

[bionicchop2]

I can't figure out why you are using stall tactics right now.

Hey,

I know you're town an all

but I don't like this comment...

He says he hasn't got an opinion of him yet, what is the problem with this?

wait...what? How do you

know

I am anything? ZS knows I am town. Nobody else does except scum.

[bionicchop2]

So if that's the case, where are these accusations even coming from?

I wanted to get his opinion on Panz and he is dancing around it instead of answering.

I don't see what the problem is. He's catching up on 20 pages, have you done that (or more) before? You don't get confident reads on everyone right away.

I don't expect confident reads on anybody from anybody. All he had to do was say he needed to read more. If that is the case, I am asking him to read up on Panz and he should probably read on ZS who also has votes on him. You make it sound like I was grilling him for exact answers on every post in the thread. Panz has only made a small percentage of the posts in this game. Should be easy reading. I have read it all several times now.

[bionicchop2]

I can't figure out why you are using stall tactics right now.

Hey,

I know you're town an all

but I don't like this comment...

He says he hasn't got an opinion of him yet, what is the problem with this?

wait...what? How do you

know

I am anything? ZS knows I am town. Nobody else does except scum.

We were the only pair not voting you. I am town, so I know you must also be town.

That is completely flawed logic.

[bionicchop2]

I can't figure out why you are using stall tactics right now.

Hey,

I know you're town an all

but I don't like this comment...

He says he hasn't got an opinion of him yet, what is the problem with this?

wait...what? How do you

know

I am anything? ZS knows I am town. Nobody else does except scum.

We were the only pair not voting you. I am town, so I know you must also be town.

That is completely flawed logic.

No it's not.

I will ignore Farside's comment

yes. scum could easily have their scum pair voting for them. It has been discussed in this thread. Also, Adel/Qman are not voting for ZS so you aren't the only pair.

[bionicchop2]

so all it takes to clear somebody in your mind is for their other scum partners to vote them and then unvote as long as all other pairs have voted for them at some point?

[bionicchop2]

Anyway, why do you have a problem with me believing you are town, no matter your role, it's win/win...

There is a huge difference between believing and knowing in this game. Scum usually knows on day 1. Town just believes. A red flag always goes up for me when somebody is too certain about something.

[bionicchop2]

Zoraster, the conversation could have gone as simply as this:

Me: What do you think about Panz?

You: I haven't had a chance to digest everything I read, so I don't have a real opinion on anybody yet

Me: OK, if you could take the time to review Panz' posts and let me know what you think, it could be valuable.

Instead you went down a path of 'reserving judgment' because they had too many votes on them, then to some slip up about how they can't be scum unless you are partnered with them (which you retracted) and then ending up on having an opinion but not feeling solid about it. You have finally come full circle to blaming me and saying you don't have an opinion of them, but I am scummy.

I find it very odd that the logic used in your slipup post is the same logic Xt is using as to why he thinks I am town.

[bionicchop2]

My coming full circle was because your straw man arguments which seem to be designed to confuse and redirect.

Confusion and redirection usually involves changing topic and straying away from the main focal point. The focus was and still is Panz and getting yoru thoughts on them.

There is a reason I was specifically asking you for an opinion and why I wanted you to do it soon after joining the game. I didn't want you to mull it over so you could think about the perfect thing to say about them.

If you read my posts, you can see I have a starting point of thinking Panz is scum (along with dcorbe naturally). My first suspicion was you and xtoxm as the otehr 2. Farside made a good case for her and her partner being the other 2. I feel like some combination of 2 pairs out of those 3 are the 4 scum. Panz has IMO done things that should at least raise suspicion and I am looking to see who might dismiss those things. If I can find a pair that I can comfortably associate with Panzer/Dcorbe, it will increase my confidence in lynching them.

Right now, you are doing a good job of convincing me this is the correct lynch.

[bionicchop2]

L-1 alert.

[bionicchop2]

unvote
I now see three couples who I am sure are scum --- that means I am definitely wrong about one of them.

Do any overlap with my 3?

[bionicchop2]

anybody else getting a panz/dcorbe/zoraster/xtoxm vibe now?

yes, but the new xtoxm vote on panz makes me question it. I also suspect you and ZS, and omgml and grimmy are still lurking way way too much.

The xtoxm vote is a little troublesome since both groups I was thinking were with them are now voting them (not completely out of the question they can still be together but a risky game to play if they are). Any possibility of omgml/grimmy/panz/dcorbe? On one hand, grimmy/omgml haven't posted enough that I have found scummy. On the other hand, they are the only pair that has never once questioned the first vote they put out and have not looked at anybody else - extreme tunnel vision.

[bionicchop2]

Grimmy and OGML, while not posting as frequently, have posted significantly more content than the Xtoxm/K7/Zoraster trio.

You sure? I would agree they had posted more (prior to this latest flurry from xtoxm/zoraster), but content has been pretty much nothing since the first few pages of going after ZS.

[bionicchop2]

voting for your own partner sure is pro-town!

[bionicchop2]

Unvote

. No Quicklynches until Adel finishes, savvy?

By my vote count that was the hammer.

Good thing you can't count. Interesting play on your part to fake like you think you hammered.

[bionicchop2]

Is there an option to lynch dcorbe again?

[bionicchop2]

Thirteenth vote count of Day 1
Panzerjager(7): ZombieSlayer54, farside22, bionicchop2, Xtoxm, dcorbe, Adel, Gorrad
ZombieSlayer54(2): OhGodMyLife, Grimmy
Gorrad(1): Panzerjager
Not voting: zoraster, Qman

12 alive, 7 to lynch

OK, here is what I know of Panz wagon (thinking while typing type of thing):

Town on wagon (from my perspective, obv.): ZS, bionicchop2, dcorbe
Unknown: farside, gorrad, xtoxm, adel

Since there is only 1 pair I do not know about on the wagon (far/gorr), then somebody who did not vote for panz is scum (as a minimum). The same can be said in reverse, so unfortunately that doesn't help me at all.

A good portion of me is thinking gorrad/farside/OGML/grimmy. I am very curious why OMGL/grimmy were never really pressed about why they refused to waver off their initial suspicion. Yes they were asked about it, but they were never really under pressure for a good answer. When someone commented how quiet they have been, farside/gorrad came in and defended them saying they have posted mroe content than xtoxm/zoraster.

vote grimmy

[bionicchop2]

all possible groups of 4:

zs/bc , gorr/far
zs/bc , adel/Q
zs/bc , xtoxm/zor
zs/bc , OGML/Grimmy
gorr/far , adel/Q
gorr/far , xtoxm/zor
gorr/far , OGML/Grimmy
adel/Q , xtoxm/zor
adel/Q , OGML/Grimmy
xtoxm/zor , OGML/Grimmy

Each town pair can obviously remove themselves to eliminate those partnerships:

zs/bc , gorr/far

zs/bc , adel/Q

zs/bc , xtoxm/zor

zs/bc , OGML/Grimmy

gorr/far , adel/Q
gorr/far , xtoxm/zor
gorr/far , OGML/Grimmy
adel/Q , xtoxm/zor
adel/Q , OGML/Grimmy
xtoxm/zor , OGML/Grimmy

That will narrow down to 6 possibilities. Each pair shows up in 3. Maybe we can use Adel's eliminations to narrow these lists further?

So from Adel's perspective, a list would look like this:

zs/bc , gorr/far

zs/bc , adel/Q

zs/bc , xtoxm/zor

zs/bc , OGML/Grimmy

gorr/far , adel/Q

gorr/far , xtoxm/zor

gorr/far , OGML/Grimmy

adel/Q , xtoxm/zor

adel/Q , OGML/Grimmy

xtoxm/zor , OGML/Grimmy

With that list, a vote makes sense on xtoxm. A vote for OGML/Grimmy also makes sense

My list I think would look like this:

zs/bc , gorr/far

zs/bc , adel/Q

zs/bc , xtoxm/zor

zs/bc , OGML/Grimmy

gorr/far , adel/Q

gorr/far , xtoxm/zor

gorr/far , OGML/Grimmy
adel/Q , xtoxm/zor
adel/Q , OGML/Grimmy
xtoxm/zor , OGML/Grimmy

OGML/Grimmy show up most often on my list with xtoxm/zor showing up tied for 2nd with adel/Q. gorr/far show up the least. The only possibility that does not include OGML/Grimmy is if adel/Q are scummed with xtoxm/zor. This assumes we use the logic that (excluding first unvote) players who held votes at L-1 are not paired with the pair recieving votes.

[bionicchop2]

they had no reason to jump on a wagon they knew would take off on its own. Gorrad, you seem to be defending them pretty hard. We could always wait for them to stroll in and defend themselves. They already have the 'see I told you BC/ZS were scum' lined up for today.

I think the last post by gorrad is an attempt to swing Adel off OGML and back onto Xtoxm. Just a feel. I am sticking with the OGML/grimmy team.


switching

unvote grimmy;vote OGML

because I don't see a point in splitting votes.

[bionicchop2]

I'm not defending them, I just don't understand what they're guilty of other than lurking. While I admit that that is a pretty bad offense, X/Z has it worse as well as other strikes against them. Plus I'm still not ready to give up on a X/Z/ZS/B team.

I am basing it on a compilation of a few things - statistical probability, lurking, extreme tunnel vision and contradiction.

Early post from OGML.

I was gonna wait for everyone to agree to it, and didn't realize that you had actually claimed your lover already, but yeah lets get this show on the road.

My platonic life partner is Grimmy

Notice how he says he was going to wait for everybody to agree. Later when I say this:

I will wait to state my partner until everybody agrees. I assume most pairs had a similar idea. My parnter and I were hoping to have some more discussion so we could try to figure out the pairs and then have the pair reveal a little later. Scum could have come in with predetermined pairs out of their 4, but we could have possibly caught them associating with others in the group by accident before revealing their made up pairs.

I see no disadvantage to pair revealing, but was just hoping it wouldn't be the first thing done.

he attacks me with this:

The flat refusal to claim your pair even when you state that there is no disadvantage is definitely odd.

I never flat out refused to claim and my comment was similar (not exactly the same) to his.

Side note from Panz:

So anyway,

FoS:Xtoxm

. Never, ever, ever, ever claim before the majority says go. You should be lynched for this. It is a cardinal sin.

I figured it was the same as mass claim in a normal game. You discuss the idea, you agree to the idea, you execute the idea. Everybody just jumped in and did it on their own taking away the one thing we might have been able to discuss.

Its not that you didn't have a valid strategy, its mostly zombieslayer's post thats giving me scum vibes. I understand that looking for signs of in thread coaching will obviously not be the same kind of useful tell as in a normal game but this

Yes, we intended to wait to reveal our grouping, Bionic. But everyone else has, essentially. If we do not claim now, it would only make us look scummy.

is reading very strangely to me.

It looks like he's trying to reel you in out of fear you've made some kind of blunder.

The last sentence especially is also making my head spin in WIFOMy circles as to whether or not it is something scum would say when trying to look town.

Here OGML says that fear of a blunder is a scum tell (paraphrase). Oddly his partner prett soon after leaves this gem:

this is exaclty why I like this format so much. I can follow OMGL's lead and not screw up like I did in the past couple of mafia games I was in.

Grimmy
holding the belt knot of OMGL's pants.

Now, I actually agree that both comments look scummy. I cringed when I read ZS post his comment about not wanting to look scummy. As town, while you don't want to confuse town by looking scummy, you also shouldn't be overly concerned about your own image. When grimmy followed with his post I couldn't put my finger on why it bugged me. My initial reaction was wondering why town would be afraid of screwing up. With ZS's post fresh on my mind though I knew town do the same thing.

When I look at it as a big picture, OGML jumped on us, grimmy followed. The reasons he gave were contradictory to their own actions and they never took the time to re-evaluate their stance.

[bionicchop2]

sold
thanks for outing yourself zoraster
unvote, vote:xtoxm

For xtoxm to be scum in my possible scum list, it would require them to be paired with OGML/grimmy or with your pair so for now I am staying where I am.

I would like some analysis from farside / gorrad. If I can convince myself they are a town pair, it would put me in a situation where I think it is likely for xtoxm/zoraster/OGML/grimmy is the scum group. I could comfortably vote for either one there. It gets trickier if Adel/Q are scum, but I still have a 50% chance of being correct since I would have them down to 2 possible sets of partners. I am a little uncomfortable voting for the xtoxm/zor pair right now because dcorbe is a reminder there is a fine line between scum and inexperienced town.

[bionicchop2]

I am loving how bionic and zombie can't do anything but come up with more excuses for why Team Awesome must be scum for voting them.

Its also now terribly obvious that xtox/zor are partners with bio/zomb. If Adel made another one of those graphics to encompass the voting patterns of the entire game there would be a big, honking white space where x and k7/zor refused to vote for their partners. X's ridiculous farside omgus nonsense is icing on the cake.

A vote four any of the four is a vote for all four, so vote: xtoxm.

If you are town, it is very unfortunate you are going to have to agree with me at some point during the game because town needs my vote and ZS' vote to win. 6 town left, 6 votes needed. I think you need to work on convincing me you are town because my vote won't go on the same person you vote for until then. You may also want to reread all of my posts and do an honest assessment of my alignment. If you are scum it won't matter, but if you are town you need to open yourself up to the possibility I am town. If the day ends with a lynch that I am not voting for, the day has ended with scum on the wagon and the likelihood of that lynch being scum is pretty small since there is no reason to bus.

[bionicchop2]

I am loving how bionic and zombie can't do anything but come up with more excuses for why Team Awesome must be scum for voting them.

Its also now terribly obvious that xtox/zor are partners with bio/zomb. If Adel made another one of those graphics to encompass the voting patterns of the entire game there would be a big, honking white space where x and k7/zor refused to vote for their partners. X's ridiculous farside omgus nonsense is icing on the cake.

A vote four any of the four is a vote for all four, so vote: xtoxm.

This is the kind of content blatantly missing from Xtoxm/K7/Zoraster, although Zoraster HAS actually been posting some of this as of late.

I fail to see the content. All he has done is stated an opinion (xtoxm/zor are scum with BC/ZS). If you read back to early day 1, he has been trying to associate ZS/myself with the pair of xtoxm/zor(K7) since then - even though the other pair had posted almost nothing at the time.

Those 2 don't piece together:

He was suspicious of me for wanting to wait on the pair claims but Xtoxm was the original person to come up with the idea of claiming and claimed before everybody agreed. Those are 2 complete opposite 'scum tells'. If scum would act in both manners, then the response to the idea of claiming / not claiming is a compete null tell. which unfortunately was his spring point for the entire argument against ZS/myself.

[bionicchop2]

bionicchop2 & ZombieSlayer54: why are you against the xtoxm wagon?

Because both you and OGML are on it. Based on my scum possibilities, that can't happen if they are scum. I used your logic to remove them from possible scum with far/gorr.

My list previously looked like this:

zs/bc , gorr/far

zs/bc , adel/Q

zs/bc , xtoxm/zor

zs/bc , OGML/Grimmy

gorr/far , adel/Q

gorr/far , xtoxm/zor

gorr/far , OGML/Grimmy
adel/Q , xtoxm/zor
adel/Q , OGML/Grimmy
xtoxm/zor , OGML/Grimmy

If Adel/Q and OGML/Grimmy both push for Xtoxm/zor to get lynched, the list changes to this:

zs/bc , gorr/far

zs/bc , adel/Q

zs/bc , xtoxm/zor

zs/bc , OGML/Grimmy

gorr/far , adel/Q

gorr/far , xtoxm/zor

gorr/far , OGML/Grimmy

adel/Q , xtoxm/zor

adel/Q , OGML/Grimmy

xtoxm/zor , OGML/Grimmy

Both remaining possibilities have OGML/Grimmy

[bionicchop2]

who hammered on the dcorbe lynch again? Was it me?

it was Gorrad. who is paired with farside (who you started a "clearly bs" wagon on). Anyway, I've yet to see you place any level of suspicion on Gorrad for the vote that came 2 minutes after yours.

i just noticed the timing of the vote which does incline me to suspect Gorrad (so close after, Gorrad??), but it still doesn't really explain to me why you were so willing to put it out of discussion's reach by putting the vote at L-1.

Gorrad waiting for Adel's approval has not been sitting right with me. Adel could have easily done analysis without Gorrad removing his vote. He jumped on and off the end of that wagon a few times as if he wanted to make sure everybody was OK with him being there.

[bionicchop2]

what is the basis for

gorr/far , xtoxm/zor

?

They were on the gorr/far wagon when it was at 6 and I was actually the first to unvote off that. Xtoxm unvoted after me and then I revoted.

[bionicchop2]

First vote count of Day 2

Xtoxm(2): Gorrad, Adel

should not rule out Gorrad or me being scum with xtoxm... OGML's following vote should eliminate him from being scum with xtoxm though.

I know it doesn't rule that out, but if you both end the day there, I can't believe we have caught scum.

[bionicchop2]

unless, of course, you are scum with zs/xtoxm...

Yes, obviously. My case is there is no logical way for me to think they are scum if both of their sets of possible parters (from my perspective) remain on their wagon. If somebody jumps off once they get to 4 or 5, then it will open up the possibility of them being scum again.

If I look at my list, the only way Xtoxm/zor can be scum without you in their group is if they are with OGML/Grimmy.

If you look at your list, the only way they can be scum without me in their group is if they are with OGML/Grimmy. If you truly think I am scum, then your vote staying on xtoxm is the proper place for you using the logic you laid out - which left them as the only possible remaining 2 who could be partnered with ZS/myself.

Either one of the 2 votes on xtoxm is a distraction/distancing type vote to try and eliminate a possible scum foursome and make xtoxm look innocent, ot they really are innocent. My vote on OGML does a better job of covering both situations than me putting a vote on xtoxm and possibly getting played by both your pair and OGML/grimmy.

[bionicchop2]

zs/bc , gorr/far

zs/bc , adel/Q

zs/bc , xtoxm/zor

zs/bc , OGML/Grimmy

gorr/far , adel/Q

gorr/far , xtoxm/zor

gorr/far , OGML/Grimmy
adel/Q , xtoxm/zor
adel/Q , OGML/Grimmy
xtoxm/zor , OGML/Grimmy

I have no clue how you strike out xtoxm/zor with zs/bc especially when xtoxm makes the comment of knowing you are town because he didn't vote against you.
Also I would not strike out xtoxm/bc with gor/far. xtoxm voted me early and unvoted rather quickly seeing me at the votes it should have looked suspect. I just wondering how you discount those things so easily?
I'm still going to do a comparison between xtoxm and OMGL, but it probably won't happen till tomorrow.

I clearly stated that list was from my perspective. Why would I suspect xtoxm of being scum with me and why would you add the possibility of xtoxm/zor being scum with you and gorr?

That cross out has been on the fence for me, but I have been giving your pair a slight benefit of the doubt. Nothing is concrete.

[bionicchop2]

No where in that quote do you say you weren't looking at yourself. You crossed off all the possible pairs for who people were suspicious. Why did you cross of yourself with others if not to cause confusion.
I talked about xtoxm/k7 because you crossed it off. I'm trying to figure out your reasoning on this. I feel like you are just crossing off xtoxm/k7 off list for no reason.

There is an original post where I listed all pairs and clearly stated each pair would cross themselves off the list. The full list was made with the intent of others doing the same and explaining their individual circumstances. xtoxm/zor were crossed off with you based on Adel's logic of peak # of votes and who was on at that time. I have yet to decide if I can fully get behind that, but I don't see any major flaws yet. Either way it is a perfectly fine starting point to help limit my list IMO.


For your reference, the top portion of post 599 where I outline how my list is functioning. Since youhave admitted to trying to catch up, I won't be a jerk about you only reading the last few posts of mine and taking them out of context.

all possible groups of 4:

zs/bc , gorr/far
zs/bc , adel/Q
zs/bc , xtoxm/zor
zs/bc , OGML/Grimmy
gorr/far , adel/Q
gorr/far , xtoxm/zor
gorr/far , OGML/Grimmy
adel/Q , xtoxm/zor
adel/Q , OGML/Grimmy
xtoxm/zor , OGML/Grimmy

Each town pair can obviously remove themselves to eliminate those partnerships:

zs/bc , gorr/far

zs/bc , adel/Q

zs/bc , xtoxm/zor

zs/bc , OGML/Grimmy

gorr/far , adel/Q
gorr/far , xtoxm/zor
gorr/far , OGML/Grimmy
adel/Q , xtoxm/zor
adel/Q , OGML/Grimmy
xtoxm/zor , OGML/Grimmy

That will narrow down to 6 possibilities. Each pair shows up in 3. Maybe we can use Adel's eliminations to narrow these lists further?
[

quote clipped

]

[bionicchop2]

It seems to me that bionic is taking advantage of adel's theory to make sure he crosses off more xtox/zor pairs than grimmy/ogml pairs, thus giving him an excuse to keep his vote on me instead of his scumpartners.

If they were equal, I would vote for you anyway. You have made zero effort to scumhunt, so I will not follow you onto a lynch of anybody right now. If you are town, you are just randomly throwing out names with minimal reasons for your votes and it all hinges on your assumption of me/ZS being scum. Why would I trust your read when you were so far off on your read of me?

[bionicchop2]

I'd like to point out that given the current count, 2 votes makes the mafia able to quick lynch. The longer someone sits on 3 votes the longer they (or the people on them) need a careful look

That is a hard one to gauge since there are many ways for that o be incorrect. Technically, if someone has 2 votes on them and no scum have voted for them, they can be quick lynched. Current stalled wagons could either mean scum are on them or they could actually be scum.

Current wagons as examples:

OGML/grimmy wagon:

1. they could be scum
2. BC/ZS could be scum needing 2 more town votes before other 2 scum hammer
3. OGML/grimmy could be town AND BC/ZS could be town.

Xtoxm/zoraster wagon:

1. They could be scum - requires ZS/BC to be scum with them or one player from their group to be voting them.
2. They could be town with 1 scum vote on them already and ZS/BC scum. This would mean a scum partner could vote and BC/ZS jump on = game over.
3. They could be town with 2 scum voting for them and 1 town voting for them. Scum need the remaining townie from the pair with 1 vote on xtoxm or someone from ZS/BC to jump on and then they hammer.

Now, if somebody knows they are town and all 3 other 'pairs' have votes on a 5th 'pair' (this is my situation) it would be rather foolish to add a vote to that wagon. No matter what Xtoxm/zor's alignment, there is scum voting for them. Either 1 or 2 are voting for them right now.

[bionicchop2]

Adel also stated the following earlier in the game.

I change my prediction to gorrad and his partner being scum with dcorbe and panz. Panz's nice lenghty post comprised completely of twisting my words and assumptions about the way I think only confirm my suspicions.

Why do you think gorrad and I as scum. Why do you think dcorbe and panz along with it?
As adel pointed out. Scum wouldn't be voting against there own because then scum loses.

unvote, vote:Farside22

wrong. scum wouldn't be voting one another once there was a large wagon. I fully expct scum to be voting each other when there is a small wagon.

Scum can vote for their own people to distance themselves from the pairing you created. Just because someone voted for you or not does not make them in the clear.

You are missing the point:

scum wouldn't be voting one another once there was a large wagon. I fully expct scum to be voting each other when there is a small wagon.

That is the main point. The players excluded from the lists are those that were on the wagon at L-2 and not the first person to jump off. I know scum will vote for scum and would never exclude somebody just because they had a vote on somebody. xtoxm/zor (K7 at the time) actually put you at L-1 and I was the one to jump off because it made me uncertain. That was a big risk to take. It is clouded by the grudge you had with K7.

[bionicchop2]

Second vote count of Day 2

Xtoxm(3): Gorrad, Adel, OhGodMyLife

OhGodMyLife(2): bionicchop2, ZombieSlayer54
Adel(1): zoraster

10 alive, 6 to lynch

Deadline July 19th

I am 100% certain xtoxm/zor are not scum UNLESS they are partnered with OGML/grimmy base on the latest vote count.

I am town with ZS. If OGML/grimmy was town and xtoxm/zor was scum the game would be over since a townie would have 2 townie votes on them. In fact, with 2 townie votes on them and the game still continuing, I am 100% certain OGML/grimmy are scum.

ZS - don't change your vote for the rest of this game this game.

[bionicchop2]

Any players not paired with OGML/grimmy (and obv. town) interested in winning need to only hop on the OGML/grimmy bandwagon.

[bionicchop2]

I am going to simplify the game for everybody:

1 pair of scum can be found in the following 2 pairs:

OGML/Grimmy

BC/ZS

Looking at where the votes stand, that should be obvious. If all 4 were town, the game would be over since 4 scum would be available to hammer.

I recommend taking any votes off of xtoxm and put them on me. This way your votes will be on an active player who can answer any questions that come up. The town focus should now be on 4 players and we can get rid of any other distractions. 4 of the remaining 6 are town and hopefully make the correct decision.

[bionicchop2]

Farside - see my previous few posts before yours.

[bionicchop2]

Farside - see my previous few posts before yours.

Actually, just 658. You read the others.

[bionicchop2]

I think everybody needs to read my post 658 and acknowledge the logic there. Anybody seeing a way that all 4 of us could be town needs to explain why.

[bionicchop2]

I agree with you that a OGML/Grimmy/BC/ZS group is highly unlikely, and that there are decent odds of scum being found in one of the two pairs. I'm going to continue to assert that the scumgroup is BC/ZS/X/Z.

So, post 658 - yeah?

Get your votes on me and lets cut this white noise going on so we can focus on just 2 pairs.

The votes from me and ZS have sat more than long enough for scum to hammer if OGML/grimmy were town and I was town. With no tomorrow, there is zero reason for scum not to. I see no logical reason to look at any players not in that group of 4 and votes on anybody else is counter productive and distracting.

At this point, I know who 2 scum are so there is no reason I should consider moving my vote.

[bionicchop2]

I disagree. If scum started to vote and bring someone to L-1 or lynch, then they would imeadiately fall under heavy suspicion, especially with active people like me ready to unvote if things start looking fishy. That doesn't mean that both of y'all are town, I still think you are scum, but there's a flaw in your logic that allows for that possibility so please be quiet about it.

Also, the amount of work you're putting in to swap votes to you from Xtoxm is really astounding.

Scum can add 4 votes. The game would never be at L-1.

[bionicchop2]

Also, the amount of work you're putting in to swap votes to you from Xtoxm is really astounding.

The fact I know scum has at least 1 vote on them could just maybe be one reason.


Imagine if you and farside were not voting for anybody and you saw a player with 3 votes - one from each remaining pair. What would you know from that? Assuming you are town for this exercise, you would know they had scum voting for them.

Now imagine you and farside both have votes on 1 person (again - assume you are town for this exercise). That person sits with just those 2 votes for several days. What conclusion would you come to?

[bionicchop2]

Do you think the scum can all get online at the same time without someone noticing votes and unvoting before that happens? You are active. I'm active and Gorrad says he is active. That is 3 people who are going to notice.

You and gorrad are not voting for them, so you can't remove votes. I specifically said I would not remove my vote and asked ZS to do the same. I made that public statement for a reason - to make scum think they could safely add a few without me jumping off. Not even 1 person has suggested adding a vote since then.

[bionicchop2]

Gorrad is voting.

not for OGML/grimmy he isn't. The only players who could pull votes off them are myself and ZS.

[bionicchop2]

Now, as scum, it is your job to convince me that you are town, and I'm not going to start out assuming you're town, I'm going to start out assuming you're scum. Work from there if you want to convince me.

Since I am town I am not going to pretend I am scum and waste my time trying to convince you of such. I need to convince you OGML is scum. You also haven't asked me anything that needs responding to.

Also, I'm confused. Are you talking about someone quicklynching OGML or Xtoxm?

I am talking about somebody quicklynching OGML.

[bionicchop2]

I thought he was talking about quick votes against xtoxm since he had more votes.
6 people are voting.
4 people are not
Grimmy, xtoxm, qman and myself. We can not all be scum since our lovers are already voting for someone and it 6 votes. So I'm not seeing how bio thinks scum can all jump on a wagon right now. I would say sure scum is on one of two wagons and one group is scum.

I already said there is one scum (minimum) on the xtoxm wagon. Several times now. The word unvote is quite easy to add in before jumping on for a quick lynch.

I have also said scum cannot jump on xtoxm (if he is town) unless one more townie votes. I have never said xtoxm can't be scum, but I know they don't have 3 town voting for them.

I know I post a lot, but 99% of my posts are filled with content explaining my actions. If you want to debate with me, I ask that you take the time to read all of my posts. You are bringing up points which I have already made and make them sound like they contradict my main argument - OGML/grimmy are scum.

None of my arguments contradict each other, but I have already outlined near the beginning of the day where most of OGML's arguments against ZS/myself contained contradictions.

[bionicchop2]

Quick note: the COMBINATION of Bionic and Zombieslayer have been very suspicious.

I would hope you think that since your vote spent the entire day 1 on us while refusing to consider anybody else.

[bionicchop2]

Bio: OMGL wouldn't vote for himself, his partner isn't going to vote for him.
xtoxm isn't going to vote for himself nor will his partner vote for him. 2 people that are not lovers are voting for xtoxm and are not partners. You and your partner are voting xtoxm. Do you see the problem with your statements thus far?

Me and my partner are NOT voting for xtoxm.

3

people who are not partners are voting for xtoxm. We are voting for OGML:

Second vote count of Day 2
Xtoxm(3): Gorrad, Adel, OhGodMyLife
OhGodMyLife(2): bionicchop2, ZombieSlayer54
Adel(1): zoraster

You are saying in one statement all townies need to vote OMGL because we are townies.

No, you need to if you want to catch scum. The comment was tongue in cheek.

That is a lot of WIFOM comment. Plus xtoxm did the same thing and said the same thing so I'm eh with that comment right now.

It is not the same thing. Xtoxm said he knew I was town and had no statistical backing to it. He used the false logic scum would not vote for each other and he also failed to see there was another pair not voting when he said that. I am not saying xtoxm are for sure town. I am saying they for sure have scum voting for them.

[bionicchop2]

Bionic, every single one of your arguments is lovely if you're town, but we know you're not town, you're scum with xtoxm. Thats the piece of the puzzle you're leaving out of your hypothesis.

Then why not just vote for me as I already proposed?

[bionicchop2]

Your partner xtoxm already has a bigger wagon, thats why. As I said when I voted, a vote for any of the four is a vote for all four.

No you would rather vote for somebody on V/LA who can't build up any defense and somebody who isn't very active anyway. Much easier than building up any kind of case against me. Understood.

[bionicchop2]

2 years of experience on this site means you should be able to make an argument without contradicting yourself several times. I have outlined those contradictions and you failed to respond. Stop being bad at this for a few minutes and at least make believe you aren't scum.

[bionicchop2]

Oh that. It'll take a little bit of time to put together, but in the next day or so I'll make a big post showing what has me so convinced that bio/zs/xtox/zor are the scum.

Shortly after that I will comprise a concise post outlining all it flaws.

[bionicchop2]

I'm going to wait on people to do there PBPA before I finish mine. I also want to see Bio do one two on his suspect.

PBPA:

OGML = scum - see my post where I called out his contradictions.

Grimmy - scum. Hasn't posted enough content to do any substantial analysis. Biggest scum quote has been pointed out twice by farside. When panz was getting close to lynch, he basically makes it clear he expects a day 2 if panz is lynched. All other posts are jokes and no content.

If I do a full PBPA analysis, it is going to end up in a long post nobody wants to read. I prefer to point out scum action as I catch it. If everybody refuses to lynch them unless I make a lengthy compiled argument against them, I will as last resort.

Long posts are not effective IMO.

[bionicchop2]

Depending on who got lynched, more info would be made available for me to read through and possibly find someone more scummy than zs.

With a new day, we have some new info. the lynch has changed possible scum pairings, and may shift guilt/innocence on to others after some analysis.

This still sits wrong with me. You are making an assumption that there will be a day 2 unless ZS is lynched. Since the only other person who had votes on them was Panz, it gives me the impression you knew Panz was town. Panz looked very scummy (and dcorbe) throughout the day. You refused to look at him though. If you would consider a new pair for day 2, why wouldn't you consider one for day 1?

[bionicchop2]

I understand the idea of someone putting someone at L-2 put did everyone mentioned put someone at L-2 at one point or is this idea include partners. Sorry I'm trying to understand

I don't understand the question. Maybe there are some typos / grammar errors. Please clarify what you are asking.

[bionicchop2]

I would like to suggest claiming our lover group numbers from our quick topic thread pending a

moderator

ruling. I don't think this violates anything about personal communications. We were all assigned a group number I assume.

There were 5 groups to start the game (4 town pairs + 1 scum group of 4).

If we go popcorn (? - is this the one where each player selects the next player?) then no one person can choose the order. Scum will have to fake a number and hope they hit whatever number Panz/dcorbe had. If they guess wrong, they will end up claiming a group number somebody else has.

Thoughts?

[bionicchop2]

surely bio would know that the mods would never allow that?

There was no way of knowing really. Any tool at my disposal I am willing to use to try and figure things out.

[bionicchop2]

@bionicchomp:
I think you are town.
The only misgiving I have is the chance you may be scum with farside and gorrad.
Currently I believe that Gorrad and Farside are scum with OGML and Grimmy.
Would you be willing to lynch Gorrad with me?

While I can see an argument against Gorrad / Farside, it is far outweighed by my confidence in OGML/grimmy. I keep wavering on all 3 other pairs without building enough confidence where I could comfortable voting them.

Part of my hesitation is a sinking feeling you may be scum with OGML/Grimmy. The time and effort of the voting pattern diagrams seems to lean towards town, but at the same time you seem like the kind of player who would put equal effort in as scum.

This last comment from you seems innocent on the surface, but something feels like you want to gain my trust by saying you think I am town. You may be genuine, but also something scum could easily do. Since I have shown some resistance to hopping on to xtoxm/zor based on current votes you could be attempting to lure me into another townie lynch.

- You say you think I am town - to gain my trust in you as also being town?
- Assumption I won't vote for xtoxm/zoraster based off current situation.
- Appeal to my belief OGML/grimmy are scum by saying you think they are scum - again to gain my trust?
- Say the only catch is I may be scum with farside/gorrad (despite your theory I could only be scum with xtoxm/zor earlier) - invoke fear I need to prove I have no loyalty / association with them?
- Ask me to vote for farside / gorrad - prove myself as town by voting for who you think my partner might be?

I see your statement could mean 2 things - you are scum trying to persuade me through alternate methods (as opposed to arguing) or you are town and investigating me through alternate methods to get a better feel for my affiliation.

If this was day 1 still, I could be willing to set aside my natural distrust for other players because the consequences are less severe. Right now I feel like I have a much better read on 1 pair over the other 3 pairs I have to look at. I have 90% + confidence right now based off of OGML/grimmy not being lynched yet that I am sitting in the right place. I know not everybody is convinced by that logic due to vote coordination issues, but I think when a game is within reach of winning players are more alert and ready to pounce on those types of situations.

Q even said prior to me working out my own logic that the longer somebody sits at 3 votes, the more likely they are scum. They overlooked the pair voting together which is a much easier situation to hammer IMO.

[bionicchop2]

Hey all, am back can play now!

Z - Was

not

a vacation lol!

Anyway, what i'm thinking is Adel/OGML. I've glanced through most of what I missed, Bionic makes much sense. Also, having the (belief) that he is town, means I also know OGML is scum. This is what i'm choosing to believe, call it scummy if you so wish, but it is only OGML who has called me on it who I basically know is scum. I think Gorrad is the final townie so him being set on me/Bio is quite worrying.

vote OGML

Plus, if the pairing was Gor/Adel, they could have lynched OGML by now.

Gor is my partner. Not Adel. Can you make points on why you think them as scum?

His post said he doesn't because if he was, then OGML would have been lynched. That is how I understood it.

[bionicchop2]

I don't know what to make of that last exchange. I think it confirms OGML as scum, but I need to look closely. He was put at L-1 meaning an easy hammer for scum.

Thinking out loud analysis:

- I don't think votes from partners could have been added safely without looking scummy once one partner added votes and wasn't questioned about it.

- It became increasingly easy for scum to hammer if OGML was town as the day progressed.

- Every person has posted fairly recently and should have been aware of the vote situation on OGML

- Adel put OGML at L-1. Doesn't reveal anything about Adel's affiliation IMO. Adel could do this as town who thinks OGML is scum or do it as scum looking for a last ditch effort to caste doubt.

- Xtoxm unvotes almost immediately. I don't think scum pulls a vote here if OGML is town (L-1) since his partner is active and he could have left it hanging for zoraster to nail down at any point. If xtoxm is scum, he only pulls his vote if OGML is pair.

- I would put xtoxm/zor possible pairs at this:

gorr/far , xtoxm/zor

adel/Q , xtoxm/zor

xtoxm/zor , OGML/Grimmy

With either of the other 2, that votes stays on in hopes of gorrad or Q/zoraster hammering.

zs/bc , xtoxm/zor from everybody else's perspective is for their own judgment. I would hope others see that xtoxm would have left his vote on if that was the case. Zoraster has been active and the game could have been ended.

- Full possible groups list and what I think on each:

gorr/far , adel/Q:

not completely impossible. It was Adel's theory about scum pairs and L-2. While I feel a decent amount of comfort with the theory, by nature it loses a little strength when applied to the person presenting it. Was this to clear this pair? Once thing that makes me think they are clear is that OGML/grimmy has not looked at them or listed them as possible scum ever - have always been locked in on ZS/BC/X/Zor. Q being busy lately is the only thing keeping this as a serious possibility because it would explain OGML not being quick lynched. Once farside and Xtoxm had votes on OGML, Adel would have felt more comfortable putting the L-1 there in hopes of Gorrad popping on.

gorr/far , xtoxm/zor

Based on my reasoning from the xtoxm unvote, I do not think this pair is possible. There would be no strategical advantage for xtoxm to pull a vote of an L-1 townie if this was the scum set.

gorr/far , OGML/Grimmy

Possible. Farside was the 3rd person to vote on OGML. Gorrad / Farside debate forming about OGML vs. BC/ZS/X/Zor set of scum leans towards town. Gorrad believing the exact scum set as OGML is a minor link.

adel/Q , xtoxm/zor

Eliminated for reasons stated above

adel/Q , OGML/Grimmy

Possible. Adel putting OGML at L-1 is a null tell. Adel has stated OGML/Grimmy/farside/gorrad as a possible group. Could be town who became convinced OGML was scum and was comfortable enough to drop the vote on there. Would leave it there and if nobody jumped on by the next time they came on would probably become very confident. As scum, could be a last ditch effort to get a townie to flinch by having every pair voting for OGML. Distraction to get them to look at other pairs even though it actually supports an OGML scum theory. Adel not unvoting after Xtoxm jumps off leads me to think they saw the jump off as confirmation OGML is scum (I cannot be sure of their actual thought process obv.) While I won't eliminate this possible group, I will put it at the bottom of OGML groups.

xtoxm/zor , OGML/Grimmy

Possible. Hardcore distancing by OGML if this is the case. Not sure I see the benefit of that. Since ZS/myself seemed set in not voting for xtoxm, this is probably an easy play to make. Xtoxm / zor could have been pressing on ZS/myself harder if this set was scum. Instead Zor was on a tangent with a vote on Adel.


Rankings of possible groups from most possible IMO:

gorr/far , OGML/Grimmy
xtoxm/zor , OGML/Grimmy
adel/Q , OGML/Grimmy
gorr/far , adel/Q

[bionicchop2]

new info from adel/xtoxm as I was typing. Will review.

[bionicchop2]

xtoxm - are you saying the group is adel/Q/farside/gorrad since you listed it as the only possibility for Adel?

[bionicchop2]

I would love to see some thoughts from OGML on farside / gorrad / Adel / Q as a possible group. Even if they are shipped in from France

[bionicchop2]

@ bc & xtoxm: is there anything ruling out a gorrad/OGML team? Unless you guys can point out anything I missed, I am willing to lynch either Gorrad or OGML.

I think you know where I stand on that. OGML is my top suspect with all options possible on that front. Of course, my confidence is shaken from being proved wrong in most games I am in now

If you and Xtoxm are scum together and just playing this little game for show before the hammer shows up, then kudos to you.

I can't see any way this dance happens if OGML is town. The hammer opportunity has gotten easier and easier over time.

[bionicchop2]

I was worried Adel was scum with OGML which is a main reason I tried to pull votes of Xtoxm onto myself. With xtoxm away, I though Adel would be able to convince town to lynch him and he wouldn't be around to defend himself. I also was not sure of who OGML/Grimmy had as a partner, but I was completely convinced on them to start the day.

[bionicchop2]

very fun game

[bionicchop2]

I think that if bionic could have made his points slightly better, town would've had this one earlier. I felt like he was putting too much stock in the "I know I'm town" argument as opposed to "this is why OGML is scum."

Yeah it was a tough duty with the lack of posting from grimmy / gorrad. Also I wasn't sure who I was trying to convince since I didn't know for sure who was town. I figured I could use the numbers that were out there and try to statistically narrow it down. Numbers play big for me in end game situations since they can often be more important than anything anybody has said.