Mini Normal 2081 — My First Game! [Game Over]

[Dannflor]

Hello!

Exilon, what are your reads on skitter and Robbnva individually? Gun to head, if you had to say an alignment.

[Dannflor]

Are you an alt by any chance Hitei?

Why did you ask this?

Also, why aren't you voting?

[Dannflor]

UNVOTE:

[Dannflor]

Skitter, what's your read on Menalque?

[Dannflor]

How do we jumpstart it? I feel like we jumped out of LIVS too quickly.

Voting is the best way to jump-start the game and I just find it odd that you've turned down basically every opportunity to start a wagon.

But maybe you're not a player that works by hunting scum, who are your top town reads? I'm interested in what you think of Rob and skitter specifically.

[Dannflor]

Right.

My hot take is that scum here is more likely in the lurkers at the moment. Looking at the VC, I quite strongly town read Cinnamon, Menalque, and Robbnva, with a weaker town read on skitter. If I'm right, that would mean Skygazer is an all town wagon right now, which could point to her alignment considering her wagon hasn't built very easily.

I also think Exilon is more likely town than not here. Cinnamon vs. Exilon feels icky to me for some reason, but in the end I think they're both just grasping at straws, which I think is more likely to come from town than scum in a game of this size and this early on.

That leaves

[Lil Uzi Vert, Hitei, Skygazer]

as a potential pool. That's probably way too easy and I'm sure I'm wrong somewhere, but that's where I'd like to start. Luv is the most active of the three, so this is going to be most productive:

VOTE: Lil Uzi Vert

I don't like "not having any scum reads yet," granted it's only page 8, but I find it a terrible reason to withhold your vote unless your name is Something_Smart. The complaint about leaving LIVS or RVS earlier isn't cohesive with not having strong reads—and you don't even need strong reads to vote. In general, he hasn't expressed any reads and his ISO is mostly just hedging on things and asking questions with no followup.

No scum reads. Should I?

I also don't like the "Should I?" here. Reads too much like asking for approval. If this was just a playstyle thing I'd expect Luv to be more confident in their "no scum reads = no vote."

[Dannflor]

I have some suspicion regarding Menalaque but it’s very weak.

Can you expand on where you get this from?

[Dannflor]

If that was the case, the game wouldn’t be in such a stagnant state.

It's stagnant because so far no wagon has gone beyond 3 votes and no one is even really trying to make hard pushes on anyone. People not voting contributes to this state, especially in this game size.

[Dannflor]

I have some suspicion regarding Menalaque but it’s very weak.

Can you expand on where you get this from?

It seemed like he was pushing me to vote Sky and it rubbed me the wrong way a bit.

I guess my followup question would be why wouldn't you pressure this?

I took a very very quick glance at your meta and it didn't seem like you had any qualms with voting early in another game. I'm just trying to figure out whether this is a playstyle thing for you or if there's something about

this game

in particular that's giving you trouble.

[Dannflor]

If that was the case, the game wouldn’t be in such a stagnant state.

It's stagnant because so far no wagon has gone beyond 3 votes and no one is even really trying to make hard pushes on anyone. People not voting contributes to this state, especially in this game size.

Vote skittles and we can get this game moving.

So, Robbnva, I understand you believe skitter is using faulty logic. I don't think anyone disagrees with you that lurking is inherently null. I do think, however, that skitter is looking deeper then you might assume. It's not about the lurking, it's about the context around it and possible reasons for it. She even backed off of Skygazer when she noted that she was busy because of IRL circumstances. There's more subtlety to it than skitter saying "lurking = scum," because that's obviously not true.

Do you see that? Do you have grievances with skitter outside of that point?

[Dannflor]

I quite strongly town read Cinnamon, Menalque, and Robbnva, with a weaker town read on skitter

Care to explain these in detail?

I will. I'm going out soon so it'll be this later this evening.

I'd also like to get some more answers from people first.

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Skygazer

[Dannflor]

I mean, I think skitter's push on Skygazer is exactly what makes her town, so obviously we just disagree with how we view that

From what I know about Skygazer's personality, I don't think she'd be any less likely to joke fake claim in her first post of the game as scum than as town

[Dannflor]

In fact, I think Skygazer is the exact type of player to overdo the jokey-memey bravado like in 10, 27, 29, and 32 in order to cover up her scum play.

[Dannflor]

It's just my perception of how she plays the game, I suppose. She likes to meme and I don't think that's necessarily AI. Forcing it or overdoing it might be as it's generally harder to come off as genuine when scum than as town.

My only experience with scum!Skygazer is =31604]Undertale Mafia, where she got pressured early but started accumulating town reads by playing fast and loose and going on a drunk posting spree.

You believe her behavior this game is town-indicative or null?

[Dannflor]

Undertale Mafia

oops

[Dannflor]

okay Sky

that's fine

but rnow you ain't playing at all

[Dannflor]

It looks like she replaced out site wide.

Has Hitei been prodded?

[Dannflor]

Exilon, do you have any scum reads other than Cinnamon?

[Dannflor]

UNVOTE:

Pisskop, is just plain Doctor your full claim?

[Dannflor]

UNVOTE:

Pisskop, is just plain Doctor your full claim?

Also, did you crumb this at any point?

[Dannflor]

Luv, scum reads right now? Just Pisskop?

[Dannflor]

Luv, why do you scum read pisskop?

[Dannflor]

I think you two are arguing over semantics and I don't think it's going to be productive.

[Dannflor]

Y'all...

pisskop asks hypothetically why Exilon would ask if pisskop was pocketing cinnamon instead of Robnva, since pisskop town read Robbnva out of the gate. He never said he was pocketing Robbnva. This whole discussion is just a lack of reading comprehension and arguing over semantics. Please stop.

@people who are scum reading pisskop, why is he scum?

[Dannflor]

No player comes in THIS game and hard town reads me

I did?

[Dannflor]

Don't forget he's scum reading skitter

It's a skitter, pisskop, exilon, dannflor scum team

woW

[Dannflor]

you said people that come into the game town reading you are prob scum

[Dannflor]

No player comes in THIS game and hard town reads me

I did?

Than you’re probably scum also.

i dont know how else to interpret this ...

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Lil Uzi Vert

[Dannflor]

I did not.

[Dannflor]

I didn't like your sudden intent to hammer pisskop when several players had yet to check in and we have one waiting for a replacement. With several days left on the clock. In the face of a Doctor claim.

[Dannflor]

Fair enough.

I think town is a lot more cautious than you in that scenario anyways, though? Like your progression on that slot came out of nowhere and then you're suddenly okay with hammering a claimed doctor.

[Dannflor]

hm

UNVOTE:

I need to reread

I also want to know what skitter thinks of all this

[Dannflor]

A full doctor seems powerful for a game of this size, but that's kinda WIFOM without knowing the rest of the setup

[Dannflor]

I've been defending pisskop, why am I not a viable partner?

[Dannflor]

skitter

that's a hot take

[Dannflor]

You think it's possible skitter is bussing?

[Dannflor]

I think she's pretty town

though I don't like her push on you

[Dannflor]

b) an ungated doc feels kinda strong for a game this size, it makes me feel like it's a fake-claim

it would be just as easy to claim two-shot doc or something

regardless it feels bad to lynch a claimed doc when we can direct his shots to protect a consensus town read if he's town

though that gets tricky if a RBer exists I suppose

[Dannflor]

It's mostly skitter's push on skygazer that I don't think is bussing

[Dannflor]

Sorry what is gated/ungated?

restricted somehow

like with an x-shot modifier or odd-night modifier or something else

[Dannflor]

-snip-

@dann what do u think of these?

I mean pisskop saying "the doc" is fine, if he's actually a doctor, it's both semantically and technically correct from his pov

Menalque saying that... I'm guessing you think it's TMI, but unless scum has an informed role they wouldn't exactly be more knowledgeable than town on whether a doc exists. I think you might be reading too much into it but *shrug*

What do you think about the claim coming prematurely? Before intent, that is

[Dannflor]

Robbnva has requested replacement. Deadline is paused until I find a suitable replacement.

This slot is very likely town imo

[Dannflor]

but you're already /inned on this account

[Dannflor]

Rereading tonight. This game got a lot messier very quickly and I have a lot of conflicting thoughts I need to sort out.

[Dannflor]

Read Robbnva first

[Dannflor]

I'm just curious how you read him

[Dannflor]

Okay I missed a lot so I'm gonna go back through the game and try to sort myself out now

[Dannflor]

anyway my comments on rob:

he should not live to lylo

Pretty sure Rob is almost always town here

disagree that he should die before lylo

[Dannflor]

Cinnamon / Menalque aren't s/s I don't think

[Dannflor]

Chennis can only be scum if pisskop is also scum

[Dannflor]

Chennis can only be scum if pisskop is also scum

like if there's a ready to lynch wagon on a Doctor scum!chennis doesn't come in to the game town reading that and going in a different direction, he doesn't blend in that way + he's diverting an easy lynch on a TPR

pisskop still could be scum without chennis but I think chennis can only be scum with pisskop

[Dannflor]

Although, actually, if you are right then I kinda wanna lynch you for it

Also, I PM’d clarity so she knows, but for the rest of you: I’m V/LA until at least monday

Because it seems so stretchy to me (okay, I haven’t read skitter’s other games so maybe she has caught scum from the same) that to actually be right seems like she has information that only scum could reasonably have at this point

Plus it’s a soft bus if it probably doesn’t go anywhere because it’s seen as stretchy by everyone else? Which seems like the perfect time for a soft bus?

this is dumb townie logic

not forced scum logic

I think this very rarely ever comes from scum

[Dannflor]

That’s a huge stretch

I mean, if you end up being right — kudos, but there’s no way I’m buying it this early

meant to include this instead of #62

[Dannflor]

still really don't like Luv on reread

[Dannflor]

That ain’t it chief. We’d be right back at square one by the time he or she gets replaced. Vicious Lamb would also make for a sick band name.

eh this is townie though

[Dannflor]

I'm still think pisskop is more likely town than scum too

[Dannflor]

Skitter, gun-to-head what are the alignments of Cinnamon and Pisskop respectively?

[Dannflor]

Chennis can only be scum if pisskop is also scum

actually i don't even i CAN be scum

if pisskop is scum i dont make it really obvious that we're buddies as scum

eh

with your bravado im not writing it off as a possible play

[Dannflor]

Dann what is your read of cinnamon

could be scum but she's not my top scum read

[Dannflor]

Chennis can only be scum if pisskop is also scum

actually i don't even i CAN be scum

if pisskop is scum i dont make it really obvious that we're buddies as scum

This is one area where I'm in a completely different universe than the rest of you. So because chennis did not push on pisskop he's suddenly conf town because he can't be partners with anybody? Does anybody else see how this logic fails?

It has to do with hard he pushed away from pisskop basically

I don't think he's conf town but he's town in most scenarios

You do see the logic right

[Dannflor]

I'm just trying to figure out if Cinnamon's response to Chennis is more frustrated townie or a "scum caught for the wrong reasons" type deal

[Dannflor]

I don't think anybody should be putting conf town anywhere near his name

I agree with this

but it's most likely that he's partners with pisskop

Do you think pisskop is scum, Cinnamon?

[Dannflor]

Skitter, gun-to-head what are the alignments of Cinnamon and Pisskop respectively?

Scum and idk rn

VOTE: cinnamon

who is her partner do you think?

[Dannflor]

I'm a he btw dan

sorry about that

[Dannflor]

both of you left someone off your list of potential partners

[Dannflor]

ok I'll cut to the chase

I think this is scum theatre between skitter and cinnamon right now

[Dannflor]

ok I'll cut to the chase

I think this is scum theatre between skitter and cinnamon right now

just to clarify, you think skitter vs I is SvS?

yes

[Dannflor]

I mean no I was just being silly

[Dannflor]

ok I'll cut to the chase

I think this is scum theatre between skitter and cinnamon right now

no reason not to vote cinnamon then

but I'm scum reading skitter more individually

[Dannflor]

some measure of town: dann, luv, cinn, exi, maaaaybe robbnva

leftovers: pisskop, menalque hitei

VOTE: menalque

townreads i'm least certain on are cinn and robb i think

cinn, do you like town or scum more?
which do you think you're better at? which do you prefer playing?

remind me how much experience you have?

ok
you have a really like ... naturally townie sounding tone, and that's kinda what i was reading you off of
but i don't know if you'd sound like that from both alignments

i don't have much other reason to townread you rn really

I'm starting to move towards the idea of one of Exilon/chennis being mafia, both of them are scumreading me but have gone about doing so in weird ways. I think this is a concerted effort to push towards a mislynch on a player they view as an easy target.

i'm not really townreading cinn anymore

Basically, your progression on cinnamon and questioning of him doesn't feel like genuine sorting, it feels like interactions for the sake of interactions and a way for you to move from a town read to a scum read when Cinnamon started low key freaking out under pressure from chennis

I think this is you hedging on your caught team mate and trying to make your transition to a vote look natural, while still leaving the door open for diverting the lynch:

yeah basically as i wrote that i was thinking either:

a) you're town on a completely different wavelength than everyone else
b) you're scum

i'm still kinda working it out/mulling it over

I also don't like this kind of hedging on pisskop:

i'm trying to decide how likely it is that town!pisskop gets nk'd here
i don't think it's super likely tbh

pisskop did u answer whether or not ur gated?

Skitter was your reasoning behind this post?

a) trying to decide how likely it is that pisskop will just die at some point overnight; i'd feel kinda dumb actually lynching a real doc but i don't want this to go unresolved till lylo
b) an ungated doc feels kinda strong for a game this size, it makes me feel like it's a fake-claim

the two points weren't necessarily related to each other

I feel like town!you is more decisive than this and either believes the claim or doesn't - maybe I'm wrong there, but overall you've been very hedgy and more go-with-the-flow than I would expect

[Dannflor]

Dann the nice shiny banner i have is because i'm really, really good at bussing and distancing - this isnt a conversation we'd be having if i were partners with cinn

That feels like a weird way to respond to my read, but ok

[Dannflor]

Also where does ur impression of my towngame come from?

Ok really g'night now

a few games I've read with you in them and your general reputation

I might have built up a false image of you in my head though

Goodnight!

[Dannflor]

I mean, in a game of this size, if we're saying Cinnamon is scum

I think if he senses he might be lynched, he's gonna want to make his partner look as good as possible as he goes down, which basically just leaves [chennis, skitter, exilon]

and I think skitter's interactions here look the worst

I could be getting in too deep on the pre flip associatives though

[Dannflor]

Okay hold up seriously how is a skitter/me team being considered here the interactions we've had all game are just not things a scum team have

I'm getting told your distancing is too good and then also that it would be better if you were S/S

so I'm not really sure I buy those kinds of arguments

[Dannflor]

d2 i promise you skitter will be sorted beyond a reasonable doubt.

Why do you say this

[Dannflor]

Cinnamon, do you have any completed scum games?

[Dannflor]

i might be wrong on skitter

[Dannflor]

I'm not in a rush

I want to see if there's meta to how scum!Cinna reacts to pressure

[Dannflor]

Hm I’m sleeping on it

Good night

[Dannflor]

Exil is scum, when can you wagon him


Exil is apparently trying to shame people into voting.

But i have done no reading to verify that.

Why aren’t we lynching here again?

Well for one, Chennis apparently has “reasons” to say the claim is real

[Dannflor]

I guess I'm reluctant to scum read pisskop just because of how many fucks he does not seem to give

[Dannflor]

Okay

I think you're town

Skitter, why are you scum reading Cinnamon?

[Dannflor]

EGO FUCK ME

I politely decline

[Dannflor]

I would rather lynch pisskop over Cinnamon at this point because I'm unsure on pisskop

and after thinking it over I'm pretty strongly town on Cinnamon

[Dannflor]

skitter I don't think I could lead on quickly enough

and she's a good enough player that she shouldn't be the D1 lynch anyway

+ I might just be wrong

[Dannflor]

VOTE: pisskop

@mod, V/LA until late in the day on the 23rd

I'm going camping so probably not much internet access, sorry guys

I'd ask to please not lynch cinnamon at the very least

[Dannflor]

Exilon, is this helping you sort Cinnamon?

[Dannflor]

Thanks skitter for the in depth response

I think I probably have just been overthinking and that pisskop is the best lynch

[Dannflor]

I can see being wary of exilon's playstyle—I was at first

but I'm not seeing the scum read

[Dannflor]

hi I just got home

there's 30 pages from when I left

has something weird happened with claims

I'll read after I sleep but if someone wants to catch me up too that would be appreciated

[Dannflor]

Why is [chenn, skitter) something that needs to be resolved?

VOTE: Luv

I feel like I would like to lynch this most

I haven't read yet and won't until tomorrow morning but that's my placeholder for now

[Dannflor]

Chen this is scummy. You have a scum read on PK who’s been parked all day and you have Dan who is voting without having read the last 30 pages. I think that should be a concern to you.

To be fair, this was because I thought we were right up against the deadline and I didn't know how much time I had.

Since we got an extension I'll slow down and wait till I've read everything

UNVOTE:

[Dannflor]

exi/dann can you pls answer my question about the gated doctor thing? ie if we assume there is a doc and that said doc is gated then do you think it's probable that the doc would be gated in only one way or more than one?

I'm not experienced enough in setups to say

and it's hard to speculate about without more knowledge

but normals trend towards simplicity so one gate would be more likely

a full doc existing in tandem with macho town roles makes sense and is probably enough of a gate

I believe both the pisskop/chenn claims, mechanically neither should ever be lynched today, and I still think it's highly unlikely chenn is scum unless it's specifically chenn/pisskop as a team, but I also think that's highly unlikely.

[Dannflor]

gonna shower then spend a couple hours catching up and I'll figure out an answer to that

hit me w any questions / specific things I should address while I'm doing that

[Dannflor]

the team should be in:

luv
exil
mel
dann

somewhat towny to be scum reading me at this point

especially for a player that came in under pressure like pisskop it would be much easier to play safer and stick to the more consensus reads

[Dannflor]

IF YOU ARE A POWER ROLE -- ANY POWER ROLE -- DO NOT COUNTERCLAIM. WAGON PISSKOP.

i dont understand why chennis does this

unless he hard scumreads pisskop for some reason

[Dannflor]

ehhh no I see it

Chenn is very obviously town here I think

I was cautious at first because I hate the bravado "I'm obv town" type play style, but once I get past that he's pretty much always town here imo

[Dannflor]

You know the human psyche is never simple.

Unless we're talking about sex, in which case, penis

best post in the game

[Dannflor]

The entire back and forth between Exilon and Cinnamon is incredible towny for both of them

[Dannflor]

i mean yes you slipped once but you've done a good job covering it afterwards

Where was this slip, Chenn?

[Dannflor]

Would you still scum read me Mena if I claimed cop?

This whole convo was just weird.

Agreed

I think I'm voting in [Luv/Menalque] today, not sure which yet though

[Dannflor]

chennis you need to CALM DOWN ty

[Dannflor]

I think you’re all way off on Cinn

And I think at least one person pushing this is scum probably

So exi or chen

kinda weak while voting Luv

Doesn't feel like a real defense, rather a way to say I told you so after Cinnamon flips green and then push exi or chen

Weird that Menalque omits skitter from the candidates pushing Cinnamon too?

[Dannflor]

If I get mislynched today I don't think menalque should ever be lynched. Scum menalque has no reason to come in and hard defend me vs Exilon chennis and skitter pushing when sheeoing them would not pull a scumread.

Except it doesn't feel like a hard defense. It's a frequent scum tactic to defend mislynches that look like they'll go through so they can look better for it after.

[Dannflor]

I feel like Luv is getting beetlejuiced a lot this game

[Dannflor]

It means he basically only pops up when he's specifically talked about / called out

not necessarily a scum tell but it can be

Luv not being afraid to engage chennis page ~50 is towny

[Dannflor]

This is out of chennis' scum range from what I've seen

[Dannflor]

-snip-

very very good post

[Dannflor]

Robb was town so lynching Gamma isn't happening

[Dannflor]

skitter, why does scum!chennis defend pisskop immediately on replacing in under the guise of being a town PR himself?

[Dannflor]

I want to buy this and I think I do but we now have the same problem I have with PK and that’s going to bug me to no end. There was no reason to claim here and I think you have a good understanding of why you shouldn’t have unless it was absolutely needed.

town are fucking stupid with their claims

I actually think premature claims are more likely town than scum because town usually don't know how to play PRs and they get nervous about dying/fucking up their role

[Dannflor]

I still want luv for today but I’d be maybe willing to compromise onto chenn depending on what te answer is to my question about how gating normally works, and also just after I’ve milled it over a bit

Why has Luv been scummy recently? I feel like he's been doing more and has a few very towny posts, I'm interested in a case if you have it

[Dannflor]

menalque asking rather useless setup questions instead of engaging with a whole heap of content feels bad

[Dannflor]

I town read gamma, pisskop, exilon, chennis, cinnamon, and luv to some extent.

I scum read menalque currently and am null-scum on skitter.

VOTE: Menalque

I'd like this today

Menalque please case luv when you get the time because I'm not sure I believe your scum read on him at this time

[Dannflor]

Menalque is at

L-2

[Dannflor]

skitter, why does scum!chennis defend pisskop immediately on replacing in under the guise of being a town PR himself?

also what is your read on Luv?

[Dannflor]

Also if the lynch somehow flips back to me don’t hammer before letting me claim

Don’t hammer without letting me claim if it goes that way. If anyone does lynch them first, followed by luv

this stuff makes me a little hestitant

[Dannflor]

why chennis

[Dannflor]

why chennis

his push on me was p bad
don't like the bravado thing either

ok push is one thing maybe, he's made several half-baked pushes this game

Don't think the bravado is necessarily a scum tell?

does scum him cover for pisskop this hard?

[Dannflor]

(1) dann — I thought his move onto me was totally inorganic and unconvincing. Felt like scum trying to get onto the wagon

why would I do this when I was already scum reading Luv who had a wagon going for himself and I could easily push without suspicion

unless we think we're partners

[Dannflor]

VOTE: chenn

[Dannflor]

unless we think we're partners

unless you think

[Dannflor]

VOTE: skitter

[Dannflor]

ugh

VOTE: Chenn

mechanically terrible to lynch menalque

[Dannflor]

ehhh no I see it

Chenn is very obviously town here I think

I was cautious at first because I hate the bravado "I'm obv town" type play style, but once I get past that he's pretty much always town here imo

Dann why did you go from this to a vote on chen?

pedit oh its on skitter now

because the new info of menalque's claim is making me reconsider chenn

Especially the beginning of his iso I don't know if his defense of pisskop clears him as much as I thought

I've seen him do the spam posty large game presence thing before as scum, I just didn't think he'd be able to keep it up as much as he has as scum

I realize I'm waffling hard today and that makes me look scummy, but this day is a fucking mess for town and I don't want to mess it up even further by making a terrible lynch so I'm reconsidering a lot

[Dannflor]

there totally could be a macho role and an enabler for the doctor

It just might be that the macho is a scum role

[Dannflor]

inb4 skitter:

"if I was scum with Dann here our interactions would look completely different"

[Dannflor]

I'm sticking with chenn because I came into the game with the assessment that there was scum within [Luv, pisskop!slot, chenn!slot]

And we obviously shouldn't and aren't lynching pisskop today, I now think Luv is very town even after looking back over his ISO in my second guessy mode

so chenn it is

I'm sticking with my original gut

[Dannflor]

I’m not interested in lynching skitter because

1. I am scum reading her less as time goes on

2. She is a player I’d rather not lynch Day 1 because if town I believe she’d be a very valuable asset

[Dannflor]

Macho + Doc sounds more plausible than Macho + Doc + Enabler.

Why not Doc + Enabler?

[Dannflor]

Exilon, I straight up don’t understand your last point/question. Where are you getting that chenn scum equals skygazer town?

[Dannflor]

In response to the 2nd question, I was just being jokey/memey. There’s nothing deeper to it. Maybe the associative between me and skitter do look bad. I don’t really care, I know I’m not her partner.

[Dannflor]

Your first question just confuses me? I was catching up after being V/LA and that was a post that stood out that town pinged me. Yes I already believed his claim, but I’m going to note additional posts that town ping me to strengthen my read. I did this for a few people. I don’t understand the logic of only being able to town read people for one reason.

[Dannflor]

Exilon has a valid point in that I haven’t been pushing skitter, but I have my own reasons for that. The rest of his questions raised by my posts don’t make a ton of sense to me.

[Dannflor]

Gotcha. I’m not really gonna defend the skitter inconsistency. I realize it’s not a great look, but I just don’t think pushing her today is going to be good and/or that productive.

[Dannflor]

I guess it’s like, I’m at a frustration point where I keep second guessing myself. Like I really related to you “I don’t even know anymore” post earlier. And I think that’s contributing to my decision right now.

But maybe it’s just mechanically sub optimal to lynch any of the claims. Assuming they’re all town, one of them is getting NKed tonight, so the pool there will be narrowed down anyway if one of them is lying.

[Dannflor]

There’s also a small part of me that doesn’t wanna run up someone else and force yet ANOTHER claim, but maybe we’re passed the point of worrying about that.

[Dannflor]

The problem with games of this size is a almost everyone has town told at some point. I need to reread some ISO’s and see who has scum told the most, or at the very least has the most easily fakeable town tells

[Dannflor]

UNVOTE: I know we only have 24 hours but I wanna get this right

[Dannflor]

So, Pisskop enters the game with a 3-vote wagon already built on him. He enters pretty chill for that amount of pressure and I town read the tone of his entrance pretty hard.

In particular:

I glazed over anything with more than a paragraph of text in it tho.

Scum is usually pretty averse to saying shit like this.

Menalque goes from this:

what is 'the haps'?

We’re lynching your slot as scum p sure

to this

So from no-one moving off I’m gathering that this is being read as a fake claim? I’d like to know why before a hammer drops

UNVOTE:

after Pisskop's gets run up to L-1 and claims. This is consistent with Menalque's recent claim and makes sense. If Menalque is scum he has no reason to question the suspicion of the Doc claim or soft a defense of it. I've already stated this but I also believe Pisskop's claim here. As far as Menalque, this shift basically crumbed his role and Enabler doesn't seem like a fake claim scum would try to come up with that far in advance.

Menalque then goes into hard defending Pisskop. I think both these slots are town.

Chennis then comes in with this not an hour after he replaced in:

Pisskop's claim is likely for reasons.

This is something I've brought up before as points for Chenn town and it's still relevant. He immediately softs a PR or some sort of knowledge of the setup and I don't believe he'd have any reason to do so as scum. All it does is attract attention. In particular, a macho claim (as he later clarifies) is a terrible scum fake claim, as it means he's going to be suspected later in the game if he hasn't been NKed yet. We know he's some sort of PR, scum will want to get rid of that, and Chenn mechanically can not be protected so he should logically be an open target.

The existence of two gates for the Doctor made me skeptical at first, but it's completely possible, especially as we don't know what the rest of the setup looks like. Macho ? + Doc + Enabler could all totally be valid town roles. And now that I'm thinking about it more, it makes 0 sense to lynch in any of them.

Which means I have to reevaluate in [cinnamon, exilon, luv, metta, skitter]

logically my next push should be skitter, but I've been town reading her most recent posts and I'm still somewhat averse to pushing that today

either way, that block is where I need to look in depth at next

[Dannflor]

As far as Menalque, this shift basically crumbed his role and Enabler doesn't seem like a fake claim scum would try to come up with that far in advance.

I mean he basically slipped that he knew a doc was likely hundreds of pages ago, in retrospect, as i pointed out at the time

yea

there's no reason for scum to do what he's done

even if there was

he doesn't plan it that far in advance

[Dannflor]

Okay.

We lynch LUV today.

I've been overthinking, and LUV's ISO is a scum ISO. I already outlined an initial case against his early game when I entered the game myself in 205. Several others also mentioned how little he'd actually done. His questions were empty and he's not really sorting or looking to sort despite what was a stagnant game at the time.

I ask him for reads and he states a safe town read on Exilon before hedging or null reading everyone else he mentions in 206.

I've also expressed my gut dislike of his post giving intent. It's worse when you consider that he was about to hammer pisskop, but instead straight up OMGUSes Menalque in 435

I mention Hitei because I and the rest of town damn sure want to hear from here before anyone’s hammered.

Statements like this combined with his 355 seem very LAMIST and unnatural. He's too self conscious. All in all, there's a lot of posts that just tonally read all wrong here. Not just in OMGUSing Menalque but in the way he responded to Menalque's case in 452 and his question to me in 438 when I had already cased LUV a few times before. The latter feels like a disingenuous attempt to sort me.

Now, I did state I thought 1333 was a good post and townie. And to be honest, it's really the only post LUV has made that town pings me. Cinnamon, Exilon, Robb!slot, and even Skitter have town pinged me more than him. And reading into it, it's not a hard post to make as scum. It's just an analysis of why he doubts the pisskop claim that I honestly disagree with in a lot of ways. It feels like LUV is stretching to find reasons to justify his doubt of the claim. He devotes so much time and energy into explaining this and yet decides to keep pushing Menalque instead for seemingly OMGUS reasons.

i want gamma to play

We all do. We desperately need a pair of fresh eyes.

More LAMIST stuff I think.

The stuff that really makes me think LUV is forcing his scum read on Pisskop is that his specific doubt of the claim continues even AFTER Chenn claims macho, and I feel town!LUV would reconsider more. It's also strange to me that LUV doesn't try casing Pisskop's play more, and instead focuses on the claim so much in his casing. 1592 is a rehash of his last wall with no reconsideration after Chenn claims macho. I feel like with the new information you have to consider the claim could be valid, but instead LUV shades Chenn's claim by taking issue with the timing of it. HINT: Town rarely claims optimally.

Now I could ignore all of the above but when you not only start but insist on pushing on me for things that are very idiotic like fluff posting and stating intent on someone you were scum reading, I struggle with letting go.

LUV also repeatedly shades and discredits scum reads on him by calling them empty or idiotic. I can understand being frustrated if you don't understand exactly why you're being pushed like Cinnamon, but there's not really an attempt to understand here, it's just misrepping the reasons for pushing him and making them out to be stupid.

I think this is scum. It was my first scum read in the game and I think I was right.

VOTE: Lil Uzi Vert

Can we CFD this? At the very least it is a better lynch than any of chenn/Menalque/pisskop

And I think it flips red

[Dannflor]

UNVOTE: I know we only have 24 hours but I wanna get this right

Huh
Why have my recent posts been townie?

1745 specifically read as genuine to me

I also think your reaction to Chenn makes sense from your pov and the fact that you admit some things don't make sense about Chenn!scum is a contradiction that I think you'd be too careful to make as scum.

[Dannflor]

LUV is at

L-2

if I counted correctly

[Dannflor]

I'll respond to this when I get home tonight

Also don't want to clog the thread and let other people have a chance to check in first

[Dannflor]

Although LUV, one thing I would like you to answer before I respond is where would you like to lynch today? We have ~20 hours until deadline

[Dannflor]

I don't know how you can imagine pisskop!scum in a world where Menalque is town and there is no doc counter claim.

I think you're hanging on to this scum read because there isn't actually anywhere else you can push convincingly, not because you actually believe in it.

[Dannflor]

I do wish the Robb slot wasn't just gone in all of this

[Dannflor]

Cinnamon is still town I think.

Chenn, you need to full claim.

[Dannflor]

The replacements on that slot don't mean anything imo

And I'm not sure it makes sense as a partner for LUV

[Dannflor]

has everyone lost their god damn minds

[Dannflor]

Chenn why did you target Exilon

[Dannflor]

Oh luv is prob town i think

Why? He’s not done anything AI

this probably isn't S/S btw from Robb

[Dannflor]

I think a mass claim is optimal here

[Dannflor]

skitter is a potential partner for sure but we should take this day slowly

no rushed lynches, we can end the game today

[Dannflor]

towny players should be last because you want scum players to be forced to claim without as much information

it could make a difference depending

I will go last.

[Dannflor]

skitter or creature next probably I don't really care which

[Dannflor]

actually exi should go last since he's conf town

[Dannflor]

creature > skitter > me/exi

[Dannflor]

Chennis has an inno on exilon

[Dannflor]

chennis why on earth do you think there is a role blocker

[Dannflor]

if he is scum...

then exilon is also still town

[Dannflor]

mass claim will tell us whether chenn is lying or not anyway

[Dannflor]

wait for mass claim before we start lining up lynches

[Dannflor]

I don't care about the order to much but I do think Creature's first post should be to claim

[Dannflor]

Also VT

Exilon?

[Dannflor]

unless exilon is a PR I suspect chenn is telling the truth about his role

[Dannflor]

huh

I've never seen that role before

as it seems like negative utility I'm still very much inclined to believe Chenn

A gated Doctor + beloved princess vs. even just 2 goons? No way

Chenn is truthing

[Dannflor]

I'm gullible

[Dannflor]

still

a gated doctor vs. 1 informed + ? mafia seems scum sided in a 9 player game

right? am I doing setup WIFOM correctly

[Dannflor]

The ascetic modifier fits and everything about the way he's handled his claim since he entered the game just doesn't make sense from a scum perspective imo

[Dannflor]

although I kinda doubt there is actually a roleblocker like Chenn is suggesting

[Dannflor]

So this means that for now:

Exilon - VT

Chennis - Ascetic Jailkeeper

Menalque - Doctor Enabler

Dannflor - VT

skitter - VT
Cinnamon - VT
Creature - VT

we lynch Creature today, let's say he flips town

let's say chennis dies

It's then 4:1

We lynch cinnamon, let's say he flips town

let's say Exilon dies

It's then 2:1

then we can lynch skitter in lylo

so basically, if you believe in all the claims and you believe that I am town we have auto victory here.

chennis must be killed tonight or he produces more results, which makes scum even more mechanically fucked

We could even just have him target me/menalque really confirm us for auto win

what am I missing

[Dannflor]

like fmpov we only lose here if Menalque is somehow fake claiming

If we direct Chennis to target Menalque, either then if Chenn is killed we have a conf inno on Menalque. If there's a no kill, it's trickier, because scum could have tried to kill Menalque for the WIFOM. but that works out in our favor still. We just jail Menalque again and keep lynching off the POE, only we're even safer because scum lost a NK

we could do the above plan with me as well instead if the consensus is that I'm less towny than Menalque

[Dannflor]

yeah actually

You only need to trust that 1 of me or menalque is town for us to win this game

im pretty sure

[Dannflor]

yea that might be more optimal even

Regardless, I do think chennis should actually announce his target beforehand in case he dies tonight

[Dannflor]

it risks scum targeting the same slot chennis does in an attempt to create a false guilty, but that can be worked around

[Dannflor]

because we just jailkeep the same slot again and scum is forced to kill elsewhere if they did that otherwise they lose 2 NKs and we definitely have auto

I'd prefer chennis to jailkeep skitter tonight

[Dannflor]

Yeah, actually, I think it’s luv and that he’s this comfortable pushing for a lynch on pisskop bc of cover from exi and robb also arguing it’s a fakeclaim

VOTE: luv

VOTE: Menalque

doubt menalque and luv ever pick this time yesterday to start hard bussing

also the setup makes less sense without menalque's role

[Dannflor]

yea that works out

basically we have enough time and scum couldn't abuse it since if they tried they'd just be giving us a free lynch, which gives us auto anyway

[Dannflor]

Fair enough.

I think town is a lot more cautious than you in that scenario anyways, though? Like your progression on that slot came out of nowhere and then you're suddenly okay with hammering a claimed doctor.

town don’t lynch lolhammers as often as you would think.

qft

I don't really see anything AI in that case. Fluff is annoying, maybe anti-town, but it isn't AI. I am not even mad at the intent post because piss was the one acting squirrely and the way he was acting doesn't make sense for a PR under pressure.

I appreciate the attempt.

also maybe im wrong on robb/luv not being S/S

I guess it doesn't really matter at this point I'd just really like to end the game immediately if possible

[Dannflor]

Chenn should announce his target before we lynch

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Creature

[Dannflor]

ggwp!

kinda feel town wins regardless of setup here

luv you didn't play bad at all I think town just generally played really well (maybe excluding some of the unfortunate claim shenanigans)

[Dannflor]

skitter I'm going to be honest, part of the reason I was still scumreading you near the end is pretty much everybody was looking really townie and I felt like if it wasn't Creature it would probably be somebody who's good at looking town as scum

basically same here

I just town read everyone else more

maybe an unfair burden of proficiency

[Dannflor]

hahaha

my lock town on Robb was embarrassing

those hyper aggro ATE playstyles are my weak spot

[Dannflor]

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