Open 76 - Polygamist Mafia (Over!) before 604

[Gorrad]

CONFIRMATION!

[Gorrad]

Ok, let's skip random stage this game. The setup can certainly be exploited here. If we claim partners, we can judge alignment off of two people's scumminess as opposed to just one. Major benefit for town. All in favor?

[Gorrad]

Xtoxm, I actually didn't see that post of yours. It was caught by the time I looked. I'm with Farside.

[Gorrad]

Agreed

[Gorrad]

Answer cloudy, ask again later.

[Gorrad]

It gives us two data points to judge a lynch with as opposed to just one. That you think it would make someone more likely to be lynched or NKd is suspicious to me at best, though I'm willing to cut you some slack due to you being new.

[Gorrad]

There aren't? huh. Didn't notice that. Guess it makes sense, though, gives us a better chance.

[Gorrad]

I see no dahil. Alt or MT?

[Gorrad]

Yeah, pretty much.

[Gorrad]

Oi. I'm just gonna resign myself to the relationship cracks that are going to show up every third post now.

[Gorrad]

Xtoxm's not a newb, but he definitely acts like one. I don't like when he claimed, but I can understand him doing so given past games.

Claiming has a very significant benefit. It means we have two people to judge when determining who is scum. If one person is very pro-town and his partner is not, we can more safely assume the partner to be newbish. Alternatively, if one person is undeniably scum and their partner is not, we can assume the partner to just be very good scum. The best possible situation is that both partners seem to be of the same allignment, and we can judge them from that.

[Gorrad]

sorry about the wait,i cant see anyt scumminess myself but it has been a great read (blows a kiss to qman )

Wow, three game pages and no suspicion?!?!? GASP! [/sarcasm]

Seriously, I smell townie-attempting.

Vote: W_F

[Gorrad]

From you? Not content, that's for sure.

(That's content as in stuff, not content as in satisfied ><)

[Gorrad]

Gone to A-Kon until late Sunday/mid monday

[Gorrad]

Back!

Ok. Well we both thought of it independantly then...I think Gor/Far are probably town for that reason.

I don't think i'd find that scummy like I do Farside.

Two quotes, not outstandingly far apart from each other.

FoS: Xtoxm

Also, the Zombie wagon is a good one. Not a good time for a lynch now, but I agree with the argument against 87.

[Gorrad]

Ok, I just thought of something.

Earlier, someone mentioned something along the lines of this:

If one player in a lover couple seems scummy, and the other one is a no-read, we should lynch them.

If one player in a lover couple seems townie, and the other one is a no-read, we should not lynch them.

Question: What if one player in a lover couple seems scummy, and the other townie? And I mean, extremely scummy/townie.

We wait. Of course, the odds of that are VERY slim. Scum, in general, act like scum.

I did NOT like Bionic's last post.

[Gorrad]

That's L-1. While I agree with probable Zombie-scum, it's D1 and seven pages into a two-day max game. Someone unvote.

Also,

Major FoS: Adel

.

[Gorrad]

Doh! L-2, my mistake ><.

[Gorrad]

Unvote

, you're right, I forgot that Adel had replaced W_F.

I'd like to hear more from Qman at this point. Adel's generally scummy, but the vote makes me wonder (as I believe ZS/Bionic more likely scum). Upon thinking some more on it, this is already a standard-length D1 given the size of the game, but the amount of risk on a lynch is quite high. Adel, like me, did not count what vote hers would be, so I don't think she meant to set up a quicklynch possibility.

I'm going to let up on Adel for now and see how she and Qman act later. ZS is top of my list, and he and Bionic have both been topping my scum meter. Really, if it wasn't for the amount of risk, I'd be voting for them, but as it is I want at least a page or two more conversation. We cannot be too careful with our votes.

Also, if ZS/Bionic DO flip town my vote will be on Adel in a heartbeat.

[Gorrad]

Adel, like me, did not count what vote hers would be, so I don't think she meant to set up a quicklynch possibility.

you sure?

ZS is scum. one more vote and we are done with this game.

the game is only seven pages, and the first two pretty much don't count.

it seems really clear to me.

Yeah, because at that point it was L-2, not L-1.

Of course I'm not planning on quicklynching Adel or anything like that, but I will still vote her. Naturally, this point is moot, but still.

And to your last post- it really wasn't that soon, given the size of the game. It was still TOO soon, seeing as how two mislynches loses us the game, but it wasn't unorthodoxly so.

[Gorrad]

Awww, why don't WE get a cool team name ><. Farside, we should totally be Team We Rule!.

Qman's 209 blatantly and obviously sucks. Take responsibility for your own actions. Following someone blindly is almost always a bad idea, especially if that person is Adel.

Also, I'm going to be in San Diego for all of July, we should have a MS get together, maybe catch a Pads game.

[Gorrad]

Oh, ok. Sarcasm does not travel well via internet.

[Gorrad]

I see why Adel would put us as scum with them. By not voting ZS when he was almost lynched, Adel believes my actual reason was because I'm scum as well. Of course, she is completely wrong, as I didn't vote because doing so so early would be STUPID, but I'm not expecting her to agree with that.

In fact, I'd say that's pretty good townie points for them. Adel found a scum pair that was poorly-based, but the fact that she was willing to make such a huge risk in linking two very unconnected groups is fairly pro-town. Just mule-headed in the belief that she is right.

Also, while yes, my previous statement about voting Adel if ZS flips town is risky, I feel it's justified. Adel attempted to quicklynch ZS. That's normally a VERY scummy maneuver. I'm withholding judgement for now because I also feel that ZS is scum, but if he's not I'm going to vote for the one trying to quicklynch town.

[Gorrad]

Because you shouldn't follow your partner like a sheep?

[Gorrad]

I'm fairly comfortable with both the 'wagons', although I've got a preference towards the ZS one. Dcorbe, you're partially right. Adel isn't so much trying to trap you as trying to test you. Please answer the question. I want to see Adel overreact. ZS, you should know better.

[Gorrad]

I'm fairly comfortable with both the 'wagons', although I've got a preference towards the ZS one.

I doubt that will last long.

Why, you playing jester this game, Adel?

[Gorrad]

IM guessing we will see

Im here. vote: someone. Goodbye

Im just saying....

vote grimmy

for changing my post.

By George I think he's lost it!

[Gorrad]

*sigh*. Dcorbe, you refusing to answer the question is significantly more scummy than Adel asking it.

[Gorrad]

I seriously doubt dcorbe and panz are scum with zomb and bionic. So I don't think this debate between dcorbe and adel is going to matter once we lynch zombie and the game ends.

I basically agree with you, but the reaction I've had from dcorbe so far is escaping my ability to classify it.

I second this agrement.

Adel- Farside and I talked very little. I brought up the massclaim idea, she said it was good and that she would be V/LA for a while.

Also, I feel pretty confident at this point bringing ZS to L-2.

Vote: ZS

. Adel's looking more and more town, so I'm scratching the imeadiate vote thing. On the slim chance ZS flips town, I'll be looking strongly at Dcorbe, notably for his adamant refusal to answer the bloody question. Looks to me like newb scum fearing making a mistake.

Bionic, maybe YOU can help us out here?

[Gorrad]

EBWOP: Oh wait, you did. Thanks, Bionic ><.

[Gorrad]

If there's another refusing, I missed them.

Why you'd be suspicious:
1) Aruging with Adel, who I find increasingly tonw
2) Defending a very scummy player. Whether they're scum or not is not the point, they're scummy. I see no reason why a pro-town player would defend a scummy player.
3) CONTINUOUS refusal to answer the question. Of course, Bionic finally answered it for you (which should help convince you that you were wrong in refusing), but the sheer length of your refusal is stunning. In my experience, scum a MUCH more likely to not go along with plans on the basis of 'I'm not sure what this will do' than town.

[Gorrad]

I'll see if I can whip up a case-recap post later today, busy time for me so no promises. For now, bit of a problem- so you're saying Adel, OGML, and I are scum? Wow. That's just crazy enough to be completely impossible. Good job.

[Gorrad]

Busing ZS? So now eight people are scum! Yay.

[Gorrad]

Xtoxm, just for my records, could you please link me three times in games we've been in together (quite a few), where you've been right about scum? 'Cause I'm not remembering almost any.

[Gorrad]

Ok, you're right, I'll give you Weather. Catching me in WEM doesn't count, as you were on my side until the last day when you lynched be due to impatience.

[Gorrad]

*me

[Gorrad]

Yeah, I know. The way you said it was just too easy to make fun of.

[Gorrad]

Dcorbe, Panzer would be at LEAST three times more town than you in my opinion, had it not been for the fact that y'all are linked. Also, if there's two town lynches, we lose! Or did you not worry about that.

Seriously, let's just lynch Dcorbe or ZS and be done with this game ><. Not to be impatient, but the level of hate vibes in here is really throwing off my groove.

[Gorrad]

Read page four and all conversation on post 87. That was my original reason for suspecting ZS. From there, I had suspicion against Bionic, which added to it. In addition, please do as Adel stated. That was one of the final pieces.

Dcorbe, I have never seen town mess up like that in an open setup. Scum have been known to as a last-ditch "town-tell", as naturally scum wouldn't be ignorant of how many of them there are.

Also also, Xtoxm is REALLY starting to get on my scumdar with his lurking. He is not the kind that lurks. Here he'll make a lot of one-sentence or one-word posts, but NOTHING of substance. In fact, I've only ever seen him lurk like this as scum. That K7 is ALSO doing major lurking sets up even bigger alarms.

My scumlist:
ZS/Bionic
Dcorbe/Panzer
K7/Xtoxm
Adel/Qman
OGML/Grimmy

Given that, I HIGHLY doubt that the scum are Adel/Qman/OGML/Grimmy and am confident that either a dcorbe or ZS lynch will win us the game.

[Gorrad]

I would prefer if you had nothing else to say for the rest of the game.

I imagine that you've had some really bad rolemodels in your previous games here. You seem to have been learning all of the wrong lessons about how to play this game and how to interact with other people on this site.

When this game is over I will be more than happy to spend some time talking to you about how your attitude is counterproductive, and decreases the fun of everyone involved (especially your own!).

I'm not sure where you learned that we should wait until the deadline to vote. I don't believe that is true. It shouldn't take 20 pages or more than 20 pages to get a lynch day 1, and a day that is longer than that just becomes increasingly difficult to read through and serarate the signal from the noise. 15 pages seems about right to me for a newbie game (and this game has a similar level of role complexity) and about 20 pages for a more standard 12 player mini-normal.

I support the entirety of this series of statements.

[Gorrad]

If I knew, I'd tell you.

[Gorrad]

Huh, well what do you know! There IS a case of one very scummy partner and one very town. I might have to do some meta-ing of Dcorbe and see if he's just a really bad townie, since I already believe I have a decent read on Panzer.

[Gorrad]

I change my prediction to gorrad and his partner being scum with dcorbe and panz. Panz's nice lenghty post comprised completely of twisting my words and assumptions about the way I think only confirm my suspicions.

Why do you think gorrad and I as scum. Why do you think dcorbe and panz along with it?
As adel pointed out. Scum wouldn't be voting against there own because then scum loses.

unvote, vote:Farside22

wrong. scum wouldn't be voting one another once there was a large wagon. I fully expct scum to be voting each other when there is a small wagon.

Now, see.. A gorrad/farside wagon is a wagon I could see as productive.

Vote: farside22

Ok, hypocrite, where's YOUR case? You whine and complain about cases, then hop onto the first wagon that isn't you or your scumbuddy.

[Gorrad]

1. Ok, great, defending your scumbuddy. Woo.
2. Agreeing does not mean doing so blindly
3. 346
4. The 4. is a lie
5. Howzat again? I honestly have no idea what you're talking about here.
6. And how exactly does this reflect alignment at all? Saying it's universal makes it a nulltell
7. Right, naturally. We've seen your willingness to answer questions, say, regarding nighttalk.

[Gorrad]

Regarding 7: Thanks for completely ignoring the point. I'll answer questions that are reasonable to prove a case. I won't answer questions I think are unreasonable no matter how many people say that it is reasonable if they refuse to explain to me why it is reasonable.

If someone asks you a question to help their scumhunting, you answer it unless you're hiding something or have damn good reason not to. That simple.

Regarding 2: It's blind agreement if you refuse to post anything supporting your case

And yet, I DID.

Regarding 6: Again you missed the point. Something global on that scale is absolutely relevant to the game, because she's letting her personal opinion of me effect her judgement. Tell me, please how someone acting in haste is beneficial to the town.

Ok, so even if she's playing poorly, that doesn't make her scum. It means she's playing as normal. Besides, have you ever thought it was YOUR scummy play that makes her suspect you?

Regarding 5: I think it's more than coincidental that your posts in this thread dried up for a page-page and a half and then you posted within 10 minutes of me attempting to blast my position on your partner's wagon to pieces. That's lurking/tunnel vision to the max.

Again, where is this? I've been VERY active in this game. Give me post numbers.

Regarding 2: It took you a *LONG* time and a *LOT* of asking both you and adel to get one of you to finally post that.

Pardon me for having my wisdom teeth pulled. I hardly had time for a readthrough.

Regarding 1: He *MUST* be scum, because *YOU* said so and everything *YOU* say is *SOOO* correct, right? What *EVER* was I thinking.

Yeah, me and a good amount of the rest of the town. You seem to be one of the only people supporting him. Because y'all are scumbuddies.

[Gorrad]

I had a good reason. I didn't understand the question. Did anyone have a good reason to not take 5 minutes to explain it to me?

No.

I'm fairly sure we DID try and explain. Several times. Besides, the question was VERY straightforward.

Sure, several pages into the argument.

Again, teeth removal. Sorry.

I get that my playstyle has something to do with it but we're not talking about 1 or 2 games here, we're talking about every single game I'm in with her.

And once more I state, HOW does this effect her allignment? At ALL?

When was the last time before this morning you posted?

The previous night, shortly before I went to bed.

Maybe you shouldn't pick a fight and then leave to go have oral surgery immediately. Maybe you should have waited until after you could respond to me to blast me. Or perhaps was it your intention to paint me in a bad light and then stop responding.

Or maybe I had oral surgery and decided it wouldn't matter if my access was limited for a short period of time because of it. Oh, that's right, I must have PLANNED my oral surgery ahead of time so that it would conflict! 'Oh dang', said I, 'I'd better get my teeth pulled so I don't have to face the might of dcorbe!'

Incorrect. You are the scum.

Nuh-uh, YOU!

[Gorrad]

1. That's stupid and bull-headed

2. If someone acts as detriment to the town in the exact same way through several games, some of which she's town (I assume), it's NOT a scumtell.

3. That is, once more, stupid. Do the rest of y'all see this? Seriously. When I play a game, I don't plan arguments to conflict with RL events. They just do. If I planned them that way, I would be a coward. You're honestly just grasping for straws here.

[Gorrad]

Sheesh, overreaction much, ZS? It's not like she said 'OMG ZS DEFENDED A PARTNER DIEDIEDIE!!!!1' Pointing out that something is a bit scummy, especially in a post that detailed, is not a huge deal.

By the way, good analysis!

[Gorrad]

Oi vey! One day away and I get three pages to sort through. I gotta say, Panzer's really not looking too hot now, and he was the main reason I wasn't voting for Dcorbe. It also brings me great joy to see K7 replaced, and I hope his replacement will do better.

At this point, if scum isn't ZS/dcorbe/Bionic/Panzer I'll be shocked.

[Gorrad]

Woahhey! Qman's here. I had honestly forgotten you were in this game.

And you call out OGML and Grimmy for lurking.

[Gorrad]

He does have an opinion. He said so in 508. He's just not saying them.

[Gorrad]

Grimmy and OGML, while not posting as frequently, have posted significantly more content than the Xtoxm/K7/Zoraster trio.

[Gorrad]

all the arrows on that graphic seem to point back to you adel.

And this is where the headdesking at dcorbe's scumminess occurs once more.

[Gorrad]

Fine!

Unvote, Vote: Panzerjager

. L-1 again.

[Gorrad]

It's kinda the truth, Qman. Read your role PM or, alternatively, the townie role PM in post 2.

[Gorrad]

hey Qman, please unvote Panzerjager
I'm in the baby steps of a deep analysis that will take a few days, and I don't want him lynched yet.

Unvote

[Gorrad]

Or maybe I have an active interest in hearing said analysis. Qman hadn't posted, and I didn't want a quicklynch with analysis coming, so I unvoted. Now Qman has unvoted, so I'm able to vote again.

Vote: Panzerjager

[Gorrad]

First of all, that word you use. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Second, would you have prefered I kept my vote on? If I had, you could have been quicklynched before the analysis even got out. Not that that's a bad thing.

[Gorrad]

Unvote

. No Quicklynches until Adel finishes, savvy?

[Gorrad]

Well, I was just waiting for your analysis. If you aren't worried about it, I won't be either.

Vote: Panzerjager

[Gorrad]

Is there an option to lynch dcorbe again?

To say this post made me lol would be a vast understatement.

Personally, I'd go with ZS/Bio or maybe Xtoxm/Zoraster. OGML/Grimmy COULD be scum, but I like them much more than X/Z. Oh, and

Vote: ZombieSlayer

.

[Gorrad]

Bionic, as much as I hate to ruin such thought out logic, I've got one solid reason to believe OGML/Grimmy to be pro-town: They weren't on the Panzer wagon, even though they could have joined it with very little commotion. We have four scum in this group, and I highly doubt that only two of them were on a pro-town wagon.

[Gorrad]

Really? Actually...yeah, I guess you're right, given how many were split. Still. I think one of them would have joined it if they were scum.

[Gorrad]

I don't see it. Where does he say that?

[Gorrad]

He doesn't explicitly state that he knew they were scum, so he knows they're town? I don't follow. Besides, he doesn't vote them! Maybe he just didn't think they're town! I see where you're coming from on Xtoxm, but OGML looks like a stretch.

Actually, rereading 597, I like that logic a LOT.

Unvote, Vote: Xtoxm

[Gorrad]

I'm not defending them, I just don't understand what they're guilty of other than lurking. While I admit that that is a pretty bad offense, X/Z has it worse as well as other strikes against them. Plus I'm still not ready to give up on a X/Z/ZS/B team.

[Gorrad]

I see a few problems with that, but I want to see how OGML and Grimmy respond. Thanks for at least explaining your points. I see them, even though I don't really agree with them.

[Gorrad]

I am loving how bionic and zombie can't do anything but come up with more excuses for why Team Awesome must be scum for voting them.

Its also now terribly obvious that xtox/zor are partners with bio/zomb. If Adel made another one of those graphics to encompass the voting patterns of the entire game there would be a big, honking white space where x and k7/zor refused to vote for their partners. X's ridiculous farside omgus nonsense is icing on the cake.

A vote four any of the four is a vote for all four, so

vote: xtoxm

.

This is the kind of content blatantly missing from Xtoxm/K7/Zoraster, although Zoraster HAS actually been posting some of this as of late.

[Gorrad]

OGML, you might have something there.

Adel, are you still working on that analysis?

[Gorrad]

I agree with you that a OGML/Grimmy/BC/ZS group is highly unlikely, and that there are decent odds of scum being found in one of the two pairs. I'm going to continue to assert that the scumgroup is BC/ZS/X/Z.

[Gorrad]

I disagree. If scum started to vote and bring someone to L-1 or lynch, then they would imeadiately fall under heavy suspicion, especially with active people like me ready to unvote if things start looking fishy. That doesn't mean that both of y'all are town, I still think you are scum, but there's a flaw in your logic that allows for that possibility so please be quiet about it.

Also, the amount of work you're putting in to swap votes to you from Xtoxm is really astounding.

[Gorrad]

Can scum add four votes all at the exact same time?

[Gorrad]

Also, the amount of work you're putting in to swap votes to you from Xtoxm is really astounding.

The fact I know scum has at least 1 vote on them could just maybe be one reason.

Look, the main problem here is that most of your arguments start with 'assume I'm town for this argument'. This is just not true. I am assuming you're scum. Now, as scum, it is your job to convince me that you are town, and I'm not going to start out assuming you're town, I'm going to start out assuming you're scum. Work from there if you want to convince me.

Also, I'm confused. Are you talking about someone quicklynching OGML or Xtoxm?

[Gorrad]

Er, Adel, what's that last graph supposed to show?

[Gorrad]

I'd go along with it, but I doubt Hasdgfas will allow it. It's VERY against the spirit of an open game.

[Gorrad]

I have yet to see a case on Team We Rule being paired with Team Awesome. Are y'all just going by votes?

I'm still pretty set on X/Z/BC/ZS.

[Gorrad]

I'm still far from satisfied with OGML over the four scum. Farside, maybe YOU can explain it to me in a satisfactory way?

[Gorrad]

Ah well, it was hard for town to win this one anyways.

[Gorrad]

It was pretty good. I thought we had a strong chance of victory until the huge vote analysis. You really came through there, Adel, I had said at the start to do minimal bussing and it ended up kinda screwing us.

[Gorrad]

I think that was only Adel.

I felt that way too, but I don't think I count.