Mini Normal 2111 [Game Over!]

[Skellen]

So after reading this in one go the one thing that strikes me as odd is the high amount of people that waves the Robb/skitter slot through with townreading Robb's rep-out but on the same time bothering to outline not for skitter's play.

One thing I wonder is what the individual reads of those people is on skitter herself? (Garmr aside as I remember his read)

I also agree with FL actually that Robb's rep-out itself is pretty nai. Like last time I played with him he ragequitted too as town, but back then he said things that clearly would only come from town while his rageposts here were pretty neutral imo. What makes this rep-out so townie? I think the only one who actually explained it a bit more was january with doubting scum!Robb would react like that to an early push.

I feel a bit iffy about this, but more about the people who hand out these easy townreads than the skitter slot. Eventually I will look at that later when I have more time.

[Skellen]

Because as it stands, Boon just reeks of scum to me.

I might just be so rusty that is't back through paranoia-town for me before I can get to playing again, but the way I see Boon up until this point, it's as if he literally has a name-tag for scum!Boon.

What makes FL so obviously scum to you? Because until his once again god awful claim (I want to puke ) he didn't really pinged me in any particular way. Did his behaviour post-claim changed your read on him?

[Skellen]

Sup

I wouldn’t actually use this as a case ever, but like...this screams townRob to me for some reason.

This is really weird for me to think about potential scumRobb saying.

Just gut, and I’m hoping post game it turns out to be true.

I get that you said it was just gut, but why exactly did his greeting triggered you to townread him? (if I get that right here)

Like he literally starts every game with that if I remember correctly, so it is even more nai than his rep-out.

Also as I can relate strongly to personality based reads what would interest me is what about Robb's characteristics made you townread him in the beginning?

[Skellen]

January/Una/Maria is my early game solve.

Also why particularly Maria? For inactives PoE you could as well have taken me for that spot or any other with low profile.

[Skellen]

I have to sort some thoughts yet, but off the top of my head I have Saudade and Wake as townreads. Although I would like to hear from the latter.

Saudade feels like a pretty genuine read and I am mostly on the same page with him, regarding january and Dunn, so I like him.

As for Wake I liked how he approached the Garmr/Robb situation in the beginning. Also unlike Robb I think, at least intuitively, that him not doing his usual D1 stick with him not doing anything on D1 might rather come from town in a playerlist that seems to be familiar with him to a certain extent as I would assume most scum would just play it safe and stick to their old habits to come off as town.

I lean town on Garmr and Dunn. Dunn feels a bit like he is trolling in some posts, but when he doesn't do so he seems pretty reasonable imo, especially regarding FL.

I dislike Garmr's handling of Robb, even although it was mutual, but unlike skitter I think that was just Garmr being... Garmr, so nai. Otherwise I liked how he tried to get things started, I thought his push for Dunn in the beginning was solid. I also like how he wants to question FL for his turn on the skitter slot by himself, it was literally the one thing I wanted to ask him about his FL read once FL flipflopped with his reads.

[Skellen]

On the other hand I am kind of struggling with solid scumreads, there are some people like Una with his focus on FL where I want to see yet where they go from here.

I am on the fence about FL, if I wouldn't have the trauma from the past games I would probably have townread him till the claim (so it was just careful null). But this claim... not again please. I want to believe he wouldn't be so bold to pull off the same move again right after last game (and again this special focus on skitter and being so omgus-y) with at least me and skitter being here who would immediately push against him for that. It's again this setting up himself as the center of the storm that bothers me.

Otherwise I don't feel good about january. I can't really pin it down, maybe it's the tone, I dunno. I didn't liked her post in the beginning when she asked Garmr about Dunn. Admittedly I might have some bias with having some experience with Garmr, but I felt it was pretty clear what his opinion of Dunn was when he said how Dunn's answer didn't provided anything useful, so her question felt kind of pointless to me. And then there is #216, the need to give excuses the lack of reads is generally a red flag to me. I never get why you would justify yourself for that as town.
To be fair though, I liked her questioning of FL about his 2/3 townreads in the beginning.

[Skellen]

So that's the wagon I would rather go with right now.

VOTE: january

[Skellen]

is your experience with him that he just insinuates scumreads instead of saying them outright, bc i don't think that's the case?

and wrt 216, i have a habit of playing passive (for d1 at least) until i feel like i have some semblance of a solve
and i usually get scumread for it, so i'll always say something along the lines of "i'll make reads later"
so i guess i get why you think it's scummy but... it isn't

Well, guess it's just me then. But yes, I think so, I can remember of at least 1-2 cases in past games where he was bewildered by other people's behaviour which seemed scummy and tried to make sense out of it, if there could be a town reason for that behaviour. It felt pretty much the same to me.

Yeah, I figured you playing passive might be more playstyle related. Ftr I didn't scumread you for the not having any reads yet and just coming up with them later, sometimes they just don't kick in, so I think that's normal. It was just for me the need to point that out and make that excuse to begin with.

That said I was more interested in poking you due to your passive attitude as I was wondering if you were just scum struggling to find someone to push to get into the game and would react more aggressive if confronted. It failed, because I got irl busy and couldn't follow up and I am just bad, so what. After reading more from you and you acting consistent with what I grasp of your personality so far I feel good about you though. You could be town here.

UNVOTE: january

[Skellen]

Very much on the fence about Gamma and tictoc. Both are in that spot where they could swing either direction with just one quality post. Be it low or high. But for now, I'd rather but tictoc as town, and Gamma town if Boon is scum. I know, preflip associations and all that.

Garmr I also struggle to read and position in the scale.

What's the Gamma/FL connection making them town/scum? That town!Gamma might be pocketed by scum!FL as skitter suggests?

Also can you explain what made you lean town on tictac?

So far I see that almost everyone has more or less made a clear stance about Garmr so that read stuck a little bit out to me. What is so difficult to read about him that you can't sort him?

[Skellen]

I guess Tictac could be an OK lynch..if their wagon wasn't full of players I do not currently trust.

You just said that you are on the fence about tictac with rather leaning town on him, waiting for further posts from him to determine which alignment he would rather swing to. And now you are just fine with him being the lynch, without any posts from tictac till this point, just when Dunn voted him up to 4 votes?

[Skellen]

oh actually nm, garmr is scummy on p 19

What exactly?

[Skellen]

I’ll just full claim then.

I’m a Disloyal Announcing PT Cop.

Yeah, I dislike your claim now even more now. I don't necessarily doubt it, but I do doubt the alignment.

Like I don't think it is townie at all as town investigative to draw purposefully a wagon on you that forces you to soft claim and draw an even greater target on you and puts town at an early disadvantage.

I don't even know why you fully claimed, your wagon was with Non's vote just at three(?) votes and even with Saudade it would have been four. You can't tell me you aren't competent enough to fight off such a wagon as town without relying on a full claim.

Also that role looks oddly convenient. Why is there even an Announcing modifier for a town PT Cop. Like usually the investigative claims the guilty immediately anyway, so what?

Only thing that holds me off of voting you here is your successful AtE sprinkler as I am not sure this time if it is fake again or not.

[Skellen]

But we drew out ScumNon from that scenario, so it did the same thing.

Why him precisely? Because he was the only one on your wagon you aren't considering as town? (I think)

[Skellen]

This is such a weird game.

I am probably still in for a FL lynch, even although he seemingly quitted for real.

My already stated doubts about his role being town aside rereading him I also don't get his progression on the skitter slot. It looks weird to me that he got his early gut townread on Robb because of something completely nai, yet after skitter repped in he scumread her later with the argument that scum!skitter is townie and that people would never lynch her because she is obvtown yet literally the majority of the playerlist is saying that her slot is town because of Robb's rep-out and even bother to outline it is not because of skitter herself.

@Una:
What do you think is scum!FL's game here with his claim? While I see the claim as scummy I don't see any use in it for scum!FL either.

[Skellen]

@Una:
And again, care to explain your progression on tictac? I don't get how you went from being on the fence about him with leaning rather town to thinking he would be an ok lynch when you just thought he might be town. Or was the town tendency only because you are suspicious of the people on his wagon?

[Skellen]

@Garmr:
What is it that is bothering you about Gamma? By going through your ISO it feels it's mostly for his reasoning for voting you and maybe his reasoning for voting tictac(?) and by certain interactions. Why do these come from scum and not "bad town"? Not really getting the scum vibes there.

[Skellen]

I am unsure about tictac. Was mostly skimming his posts because these quote walls are difficult to read, looking now more at them I am surprisingly mindmelding with him on some subjects (mostly regarding FL), these seem to be the most substantial statements of him.

I can see the scumreads for the wagon hopping and especially the way he dealt with his Saudade scumread though.

I am not sure though if I get the reactionary argument. I would have assumed it is for only responding in these quote walls with comments, however looking at some of his games that seems to be the norm, just that he seems to be more abrupt with his comments here. Do you think he is lacking any initiative here, Gamma? Your reasoning in #256 kind of suggests (to me at least) that it is rather for his style of posting just looking unreadable/fluffy?

[Skellen]

Skellen, I don't have an opinion on you

Well, I didn't asked for it either. Nah, I get you, I feel myself like a foreign body in this game without really getting hooked in. I feel like some interactions this game are going nowhere, which is what I meant recently with this game being weird. Doesn't help that while I am basically fine with lynching FL, I don't feel good about the wagon as I am not townreading one single person there.

What's your take on the FL wagon? You think that's the chosen counterwagon to your scumread?

[Skellen]

But Una IS scum. Maria likely. Look at Una/Maria pairing.

Considering you are that certain about Una you haven't done much to push his lynch besides calling him a gut scumread and that he pushes you to make you defensive. Instead you went for Non where you seem to be less sure, as Non... isn't making any sense by himself.

[Skellen]

Flavor

, why are Una and Maria scum? Idk about Una but I have Maria as town rn

I second the question. I find it interesting that both Una and FL are scumreading each other but both link the other up with Maria. Especially as both haven't really said anything noteworthy about Maria.

[Skellen]

I’d do Garmr if it was clearly more viable than TikTok but not rn

Weren't you just warming up to him being town?

[Skellen]

I was going to question this further before given my opinion but decided not to. It's really weird that mariar scum read non but had no opinion on non softing masons with her. There's like no reaction to him softing it and when asked Mariar kinda pushed it away and then said she'd vote him . Town would at least of some sort of reaction if they were suspecting them since they literally tied themselves to you.

Every scenario I can think up comes from the motivation Oh not wanting to tie yourself to non and make sure people don't think about it. But why would town who have to sort people want people to forgot something that happened. I can Only think of reasons for scum so that's why she's on my list.

I can get your angle here to an extent as certain characters might react pretty harsh against Non, but why has it to be scummy? Like I can also think of reasons why town would treat Non as Maria did. Why wouldn't scum!Maria want to be tied to Non? In consequence what would it mean for the Non slot if scum!Maria does want to distance herself from him? Apparently I would assume that both are scum, so if you are going by that assumption I could get it, although then I don't see why Maria wouldn't play along with Non (who even doubled down on it before his repout). Unless Non was just trolling. Like I think any townie that ties himself to scum is rather useful for scum to take advantage of instead of pushing them away.

[Skellen]

Well, this is going to be an anti-answer in a way, but the guy has claimed something like unloyal loud compulsive miller-Vig (

no, not really specifically that...I think.

)

AS SCUM

and lived to LyLo to take the win.
His claims are always "NAI" in a way, no matter what they are.
But THE NEED he apparently felt to claim...that pinged me quite hard.
I have no idea why he would've been wary of a lynch coming his way that early in the game, especially considering his abilities as a player.
Felt like a miscalculation to me, and I think it might have something to do with how I'm still wary of Maria and Gamma too.
Assuming a scum-PT with daytalk(?) Boon might have been pushing for a gambit.

And the "pressure" I wanted to put on him early, even before the claim, is just something I think ought to be done towards players of his caliber.
If we just let them be, they can play their game their way, and then it's could get difficult for the rest of us to sort/lynch them.

The first line raises a lot of questions, but that's not the place for it.

I must admit I like your responses, they go more or less in the same direction as my reasons of distrusting him here. How do you link his need to claim up with Maria and Gamma though? Although scratch Gamma, I can probably see why you think so there, but Maria went straight against him and I felt her annoyance on FL (and Saudade) in the beginning felt kind of genuine, which I considered slightly townie (more gut though as objectively I am null on her).

[Skellen]

oh yeah i don’t like FL’s thing on una there’s nothing to warrant 100% confidence

Exactly, especially if you consider how lazy he treated that confident scumread. On one hand he is saying he puts the game victory over anything else, but on the other hand he isn't even going for Una while taking cover in the sulking corner and phrases it like "if he would go down Una is scum" like... if he doesn't go down Una isn't scum or what?

[Skellen]

He's interacting with the thread weirdly, and being like ~at the edges~ without contributing anything meaningful

Or, in your parlance, he isnt being solvey

I went back through his ISO and kind of get your point here. I kind of symphatized with him in the beginning with his comments about FL or Gamma though. I find it noticeable that he avoids taking any stances, particularly around FL as I originally assumed we were more or less on a similar page there (earlier in the game). Then again I don't thought his vote on tictac was bad, his Una vote now aside.

[Skellen]

still no idea what Non was saying about the circle thing but i guess i’m a circle

[Skellen]

I am leaning town on Una now.

With three days left I feel comfortable with going for FL, no matter how often I think about it, I don't see the town motivation in the way he played since his claim. It doesn't feel coherent. I will roll with my initial impression that I had since then.

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

[Skellen]

btw the thought on wake if not clear is I thought the he handle flavor is scummy but I think his play before that was null-town. So weighing it was a slip or if i'm looking to far into things.

I get your read, but I don't get what slip you mean?

[Skellen]

Had he given me the greenlight D1, even for a second, I would've unvoted and made this exact same post before the EoD.

Which post? You would have backed off from anything against him if he would have just greenlighted you for D1?

[Skellen]

And Saudade musn't get a free pass. I do not know why he came across obv.town to me.

ngl everytime within my experience of one year MS when someone "forgot" why they were townreading a certain slot these players turned out to be scum. How can you even forget your reasoning for one of your two solid D1 townreads? What changed it into the opposite?

And lastly Skellen.
Their posting is pleasant and feels "good", but I think(?) I might've been fooled by that before as well.
Not sure - I'm gonna do a search for games we've played together, and fact-check.

I am going to save you the time - we only played once before, in Ramblings. Just that you were scum there, so I am not sure why you even throw that out at me before even checking. In fact the only one in this playerlist who can claim to have legit scum meta on me is Garmr.

[Skellen]

I need to go through some slots yet and to see if there is anything useful to get out of Gamma's ISO, but off the top of my head I am inclined to look within Dunn and Una if it is on the FL wagon.

Dunn joining the FL wagon just doesn't feel right to me. Like I get him being survivalistic as he admitted himself, but it's the reason and timing. When FL claimed disloyal announcing PT Cop he didn't questioned the loud/announcing discrepancy but instead doubled down on tictac, commented on Non and finally voted Una for whatever reasons. Just when FL joined the wagon on him and Sujimichi brought the loud/announcing discussion up he joined that argument and according to #946 FL lying about his modifier was enough to make him worth lynching. If that was the case I wonder why he wanted to let FL live for another day then before. The context is also important, as Sujimichi had unvoted FL and was still figuring him out with his questioning, which kind of gives me the impression he was trying to give Sujimichi the push to return to the FL wagon.

As for Una it is mostly his most recent post pings me strongly, when he threw shade at several people without basing it on any sound arguments. I also have the suspicion that when I asked him what scum!FL would have been up to with his claim that he wrote his answer in a way to appeal to me so that I would join the FL wagon (I also find it a bit weird that he felt the need to justify his early pressure on FL unasked, #852). I am just not sure if scum!Una would rush into a FL mislynch head-on from the start of the game.

[Skellen]

VOTE: Dunnstral

[Skellen]

Bizarre conversations seem to be the theme of this D2. I like it in a weird way.

[Skellen]

btw the thought on wake if not clear is I thought the he handle flavor is scummy but I think his play before that was null-town. So weighing it was a slip or if i'm looking to far into things.

I get your read, but I don't get what slip you mean?

Slipped out that flavor was town in her thought process's.

I am afraid I am blind then, I don't see anything like that in Wake's ISO. Or were the slip part about skitter? Wasn't clear by the original post.

[Skellen]

tictac, who are you scumreading? So far for D2 I saw you sheeping FL infamous last words about Una (where you are null), sheeping skitter on to Dunn (I think I remember though you wouldn't fight his lynch on D1) and now you followed Garmr to skitter due to skitter's reaction to Garmr's gambit. Can't really tell by this trajectory where you sincerely are.

[Skellen]

I was still hopeful he'd say something that would've made me back off.
I would've come clean today anyway, and backed Boon the rest of the game.

I think I can get your thought process on what you were trying to accomplish, but I don't know if this all fits together.

I don't get why FL would immediately think you are town if he would have seen (or even saw) your "softening", like what if he simply overlooked it without any ill intention or just didn't believed it? Ultimately he didn't even voted for you.

Your second line is weird. So if the FL lynch would have failed yesterday you would have just dropped your case against him? Why?

I also find it hard to believe you would have dropped the case against him, because even when skitter got cold feet about lynching FL temporarily and suggested to leash FL with directing him into a certain pool of players and lynching him on another day (and Sujimichi unvoting FL) you immediately showed up and threw in as "but" that this would be the way for scum!FL to make it into lategame (#1110). The implication of this post doesn't sound like you would have backed FL next day.

[Skellen]

like, maybe garm is a loyal fruitvendor, or maybe it's just a gambit.
u know if ya received fruit or not.

not answering that question was SCUMMY ASF

Why would it be that scummy? I am aware you are townreading Garmr (at least you were D1), but what assures it to anyone that this would be town gambit? It could as well be scum fishing for roles and considering skitter isn't townreading Garmr I think a reluctant reaction towards that gambit is imo pretty comprehensible. Especially because a town investigative already flipped.

[Skellen]

Is there a quota to how many times I have to ask a question before it gets answered? Also, who/what is Boon? (x100 if there really is a quota)

Which question?

Probably #1281.

Not that I think that the questions are that urgent besides Una's Dunn read.

[Skellen]

After going through Gamma's ISO I am more inclined to think he was killed for just being townie. Going by his reads it would incriminate Dunn, Garmr and tictac. Not necessarily a bad direction, but wifomy though.

If anything else I think he was the only one who was vocally townreading the Maria slot, so a hot take might be that the Gamma kill doesn't necessarily come from that slot, but since Maria was already replaced, eh. The Maria/Looker slot is the only slot I am null about, hope to see more from him.

[Skellen]

@mod:

V/LA till 12/26. Holidays obviously. And to make the V/LA list longer.

Will maybe post here and there if there is the opportunity.

Noted

- AF

[Skellen]

It would be very tasty cool beans if my fences were to be in the right places.
Something like garmr-saudade / skitter-january.

Looker, who are you?
You've been a member for a long time apparently, but I've missed you completely when I was active.
What games do you play normally? What's your favourite queue?

I hope these two pairings aren't your suggested suspects, because these are literally almost all my townreads. Una~... The more this day continues the more I get similar vibes from you as in our last game.

How do you get to these pairings if they are your current suspects?

Considering you were on Maria/Looker at "Fl and/

or

Maria" for D1 why did this read moved rather into the background now? Because your questions here doesn't really feel like you are trying to sort him, especially if you avoid his questions with those. And I think the question about your Dunn vote is a good one considering you seemed to be rather null on him after reading through his ISO.

[Skellen]

UNVOTE:
i promised a skit read and i'm doing it today

That's good and all, but why were you unvoting Dunn again?

[Skellen]

t > s
skitter > saudade > Sujimichi > Una > Skellen > Wake > tictac > Garmr > Dunn > looker

What makes Una town for you here? Or more town, depending on how I can interpret your ranking. Because in #1333 he was still in your lynch pool, he kind of bumped from D1 townread to D2 lynchpool back to townread without any explanation.

If Looker is your strongest scumread how come you haven't pushed him once this day or tried to interact with him? I get you have scumread Maria for her early agenda statement and her townread on you (I think). But what about Looker himself?

[Skellen]

Just going to add Skellen shouldn't be forgotten. She did this last game as scum. She towned it up in a couple of posts and then came around from time to time to keep the impression up. So I'm a little wary of her at the moment.

Finally something from you into my direction.
Tbh I don't think I have been really townie this game, but it interests me what makes you wary about me. Anything particular or is that stance more based on my thread presence?

Also why are you on the Dunn wagon? If I go by #1536 you doesn't seem to be really convinced of scum!Dunn.

[Skellen]

This Garmr/skitter thing is tedious to read.

It kind of reads like a pissing contest who would be able to outguess the other. Tbh I don't think skitter has reacted in a scummy way. Considering we already have one dead town investigative (and additionally with scum knowledge about setup) I would actually assume that scum!skitter would be hard-boiled enough to give a clear answer here instead of refusing an answer, and refusing any answer makes sense from town!skitter's point of view.
Like Garmr is right that she basically gave the information away nonetheless with confirming she got no fruit after he admitted it was a gambit. However does that mistake rather come from town or scum? (who I would think is way more cautious in a possible guilty situation while you simply know as town it is bs)

I also think this gambit comes less likely from scum!Garmr, because if he would have been a scum Fruit Vendor (or even town) I think he would have softed it way sooner to make it more believable as people who received fruit usually claim/soft fruit immediately by what I can tell and both already had interacted at least twice before Garmr did his gambit. Thus I also have the impression Garmr made this gambit more spontaneously up on the point.
I don't see why he would do it as scum anyway, because as he said if skitter would have bitten with yes/no, dependent on what he would have faked, it could have been a 1v1 trade, he could have been caught lying later or he would have "inno'd" skitter for no real reason.

Looks to me like probably TvT. :shrug: There are other things that bother me about Garmr to a lesser extent, but not for the gambit.

[Skellen]

I thought about this game a little bit, I believe Skellen is most likely to be scum here

VOTE: Skellen

Guess you didn't thought enough about it then. My vote stays where it is.

[Skellen]

Well, that's fucked up. Una flipping town turns my reads on it's head. Could have been worse though.

@Looker:
What made you vote Dunn yesterday? I remember you asking for the case on Dunn, but between that and the vote there wasn't anything else regarding Dunn.

[Skellen]

Feels unnecessary, but just in case:

@mod:

Going to be vla for tomorrow and Wednesday.

Noted

- AF

[Skellen]

Hm, that claim actually explains january's stance on Garmr/skitter on D2, because I was tending to agree with Garmr when he pointed out that her stance on skitter felt like tmi.

Since she was considering if Looker might be ascetic I take it that she would get "no movements" or something like that on town roles that didn't do something or were targeted, no? Basically loyal Motion Detector is an ungated full alignment Cop. Weird role tbh.

That means Looker is according to her definitely scum here (unless ascetic, but I doubt it), so either we get scum lynched today and if he would flip town she is confirmed as liar so we get a scum lynch in any case. Sweet. Would make the Sujimichi slot more interesting, since his predecessor claimed to be town with the looker slot twice on D1 (Non/Maria).

Then again I want to go back and reread some D1 interactions, because I am fairly sure january was townreading FL for most of D1, even when he was claiming disloyal announcing PT Cop which was by function almost the same as her role (because also basically full alignment Cop).

[Skellen]

Nothing particular came out of looking into january's stance on Fl on D1. It was weird that she had him as highest townread after his disloyal claim, but by #621 I interpret it that she wasn't believing his claim anyway. So nothing bad about that I think.

[Skellen]

or roleblock or jailkeep or something.
it's a soft guilty, not a hard one.

Yeah, or that. With Masons being in these would be most likely scum roles then, so that would be difficult to verify.

Wasn't also considering the Rolecop angle. Although I am not sure what the play would be here if scum!january.

[Skellen]

It would actually interest me why january targeted skitter over Looker in N1.

skitter was in her null-town reads at some point in D1 and I didn't really got the impression she was scumreading skitter at the end of D1 as she was townreading skitter according to #1030. She was already scumreading Maria and pointed out that she didn't liked Looker's entrance when he asked Una/tictac for reasons on voting FL. Why investigating offside the FL wagon?

[Skellen]

Then again rereading january's D2 I think most of her play looks plausible? The whole loyal/disloyal/simple/complex matter her acting looks consistent to me, imo it's the first natural reaction to assume that someone else has not the same modifier/role or at least that it is most likely not town then. Garmr's other questions are legit imo, but I don't get this angle.

I could nitpick about her mistaking loyal Fruit Vendor with friendly Fruit Vendor and thus messing up her own modifier or ruling out a PT Cop and a alignment-telling role in the same setup, but eehh, can as well be me overthinking small things. I just don't see why she would bother to tell others they are wrong on skitter (like she did with tictac) and tries to shut down Garmr and instead wait and see how Garmr/skitter plays out. I mean after her movement result as scum she would have had confirmation that skitter is a PR, especially after Garmr admitted that his fruit thing was a gambit. So why not take the chance and go for the kill on skitter?

I also rule out her being a Rolecop that targeted skitter, because I don't see why scum would not kill either her off or not hunt for her Mason buddy. ffs they killed mislynchbaity Una instead. So I agree with Garmr that if scum, then a Motion Detector for real.

[Skellen]

Also i'm befuddled why scum would rb january last night

Well, to be fair her stance on you on D2 gave away that it was probably tmi, so from a scum point of view I could see why they would try, if there is a Roleblocker.

[Skellen]

You mean Skellen anyone else and I would consider it a scum claim.

Ah yeah, you can chill. Obviously I am Mason #2.

God knows when Looker and Suji will show up again.

[Skellen]

@Looker:
Regarding tictac:

Why do you tr the hammer?

[Skellen]

@january:

It would actually interest me why january targeted skitter over Looker in N1.

skitter was in her null-town reads at some point in D1 and I didn't really got the impression she was scumreading skitter at the end of D1 as she was townreading skitter according to #1030. She was already scumreading Maria and pointed out that she didn't liked Looker's entrance when he asked Una/tictac for reasons on voting FL. Why investigating offside the FL wagon?

[Skellen]

VOTE: garmr

Hey Skellen can you reign in skitter and explain my viewpoint to her. I don't seem to speak her language.

Unfortunately your slot is literally the one slot where we are at odds with each other.

I feel intuitively town about you overall, it's kind of difficult to articulate, I just think I can see most stuff you do see coming from town, even if I disagree. I even think your push on january today probably comes more from town!you than scum, although I am less sure about that due to that modifier issue, because if january is town then scum kind of has to do something about her, especially with Masons being in.

It worries me that everyone that got nightkilled was scumreading you, especially because Gamma seemed more familiar with you. Then again I think Una would be a terrible nk from scum!you because he was also pushing the skitter/january pair which both you have also been pushing since D2. There exists also another reason why Una probably ended up getting killed, but for that he could have as well been killed off in the first night. So I feel there is a reason why Gamma got killed first.

[Skellen]

If I assume scum!Garmr for shits and giggles then my first take would be Garmr/tictac because of associatives. I don't feel Garmr is scum with Maria/Looker, because of D1 interactions as I think he wouldn't bring Maria into an awkward situation with his "Mason fishing" when no one else cared about it and Maria obviously avoided the issue. I would probably rule out Suji for similar reasons, although I still need to reread him, forgot too much about him already.

So I would only see Garmr/tictac/Wake here as plausible rn. One thing that would speak against Garmr/tictac however is the early tictac wagon. The obvious counterwagon would have been the FL wagon which arose after the tictac wagon and Garmr basically burned that bridge early when he started townreading FL early and was by votes mostly minding his own business for most of D1. So my problem is also kind of to see who would be scum with scum!Garmr here.

Then again there is a world where Garmr could be scum with january, although this would be going into tinfoil territory. I can see scum!Garmr doing his "gambit" with the knowledge that someone targeted skitter or she could be a PR to rolefish or look for reactions from other players with january doing her part to set up her claim for later. But since skitter was as well scumreading Garmr, why not killing her off with the knowledge that the chance to hit a PR was higher than anyone else? Also Garmr/january doesn't feel like SvS, at least it would be decent theatre then, because january's frustration seems genuine. Also the Garmr/january dynamic kind of stopped a skitter push on D2, considering that tictac decided to vote her based on Garmr's gambit.

[Skellen]

@Garmr:
One thing that actually interests me however is why Maria/Looker over Dunn on D1? skitter already asked you that kind of and you said you were considering it, but wanted Maria/Looker more and you wanted to see who else wanted to go there. If I remember it right you made a list on D1 with the players you would be ok lynching with and Dunn was one of them. Considering FL was one of your townreads, why wouldn't you vote together with him the counterwagon to him as it became apparent that the lynch would either hit FL or Dunn?

Like you said that january didn't do much to prevent the FL lynch despite not wanting that lynch with which I agree with considering nothing came from her when Saudade confronted her about an alternative (although I think she got genuinely surprised by Saudade immediately hammering), but on the other hand it bugs me that you didn't do that much either to prevent the FL lynch when the next best alternative to FL was someone you were ok with to lynch.

[Skellen]

However Looker doesn't look bad for today's lynch.

The guilty by january aside his ISO isn't looking that well either. Comes off as generally defensive when someone mentions him as scumread, asks here and there some solid questions, but no real scumhunting/attempts to figure other players out. It also bothers me that he was always asking others for reasons for the leading wagons just to end up on these wagons anyway without any follow-up.

If scum, then the other two probably among Suji/tictac/Wake. Although I am really wondering if the whole scumteam was piling up on FL. Also while tictac's hammer was rather scummy imo and vca isn't in his favour either I get Garmr's gut feeling on tictac, mostly because mindmeld with him on some things like FL or january. But then again I am also just bad.

I forgot about Wake for the 73th time.

I think I have to reread some Maria interactions though.

[Skellen]

Loyal Motion Detector still bothers me too though. Why this role and not just a Cop?

So we got Masons with PR and a complex announcing PT Cop. The latter can get false positives with the Masons and only get scum if it is a scum PR. So it's a double edged sword as it can potentially out the Masonry early. FL's role kind of implies that scum would have 2-3 PRs, so a lot of scum power could justify the loyal Motion Detector. But the more scum power the higher the chance that FL would have gotten a guilty on scum. Complex and Motion Detector are also kind of similar imo. Hmph, I hate setup spec.

[Skellen]

Like i'm just having trouble seeing how we end up with an fl lynch day1 and a dunn lynch day2 with a lurker scumteam

Like i sont think the game plays out as it did without there being at least one scum in garmr/tictac/jan

I am also not really sold on a lurker scumteam, because I feel like there is at least one scum who is paying attention to the game and I am not sure this applies to Wake and Suji (at least for D2).

Going by current gamestate basically everyone is fine with a Looker lynch besides maybe Creature and Looker himself has just caved in. That either means Looker is just town or scum has settled on bussing him here. Don't feel it's Garmr here, january doesn't make sense, leaving tictac of these three. It wouldn't look bright for him though, considering he is townreading Garmr and january, which leaves him almost no way out.

Problem is I can't really towncase Looker either.

[Skellen]

I want my greenflip to guarantee a jan lynch - I don't want a cop-out of "mafia roleblocker"

VOTE: Wake88

I don't understand this. By this post you basically suggest to lynch january after your town flip, certain that she is scum, yet you are voting for Wake? Why? Obviously you weren't considering it as a gambit from town and Garmr was already on january and it isn't really settled yet if her claim is true or not.

[Skellen]

Just woke up.

Will read over game after coffee.

I lied, I was always going to lynch Dunn afterwards

What exactly was your reasoning for this Saudade?

Was that... all?

[Skellen]

so are you still calling me third maf or what

Yeah I find you scummy still.

So you are/were considering that january would claim a fake guilty on her partner and bus him one day before lylo. Why would she do that?

[Skellen]

so the implication here is initially thinking it's day 1 and not knowing the number of scum.
pretty clearly a town mistake, if it's genuine.
faking it seems kinda advanced for Creature, but I have like a half a games worth of super-old meta on him, so comments from folks with more C-exp would be appreciated.

If I assume you are still scum on Looker and with calling Creature town here for that, who would be Looker's partners then?

[Skellen]

Individually they are scummy probs not a team also I read a game were mafia shot their partner and claimed to be vig sooooo.

FL likes this.

[Skellen]

Can I see some cases on people that aren't Looker or Jan. Actually even a case on me would be nice since I feel like no one has actually cased me.

Well, I guess tictac is mostly vca + poe with being on every lynch so far + the transition from the tictac wagon to the FL wagon on D1 is kind of interesting (vc 1.05-1.12) as it involves besides tictac himself all unknown slots that ended up on the final FL wagon with Looker and Creature. Although he has ties to any slot besides Wake. One could argue him joining your skitter push after your gambit might have been an opportunistic attempt to get a skitter wagon going to get out anything from skitter or january, but I don't know about that.

[Skellen]

Don't really have a case on you, since I think you are town, but I can take some of the things that make me doubt about it as it's mostly small details.

For me it's mostly your play around FL on D1. Like I feel your early townread on FL was too early and too easy/naive. In #91 you townread him because he was locking himself in with townreading you/Wake/Robb + the weird soft Mason thing between Non/Maria. Like after one year on this site I know that if anything then that FL has no problems with turning his whole readslist on it's head and to get away with it, independent of his alignment. So I feel you should know better. Although I don't know about the history between you two and how much your last game played into it (as you said yourself at one point).
It generally felt a little bit tmi like in #680, but such confident statements aren't that uncharacteristic I guess.

There are other things, but I don't really feel to point these out rn, it either won't become relevant or by tomorrow, depending on today's lynch.

The biggest factor is nka anyway. Like Gamma was scumreading you and tictac, Una was scumreading you, jan and Wake. So it sticks out. But as you said, no one has pushed you besides skitter, so scum isn't using the kills to frame you either although it is possible at this point. So either you are scum and no townie so far bothered to bring it up or scum simply isn't really aware of it or is afraid to be the one to push it.
I mean Una could as well been killed off for this D1 post #471. Although that would raise the question why they didn't killed Una in N1 already or pushed for him on D2 (I think only me and skitter were openly scumreading him and I think Looker had him indirectly as suspect?).

[Skellen]

Looker is an enigma to me. Like the wagon has only little resistance which makes me feel bad about it, not even survivalistic behaviour, but there isn't coming anything noteworthy from him. Instead that Wake vote, fingerpointing at jan and finally that awful Saudade vote. Like I can overlook Wake's vote if I ignore logic, but that's nothing redeeming.

[Skellen]

Will wait for skitter, but I will probably vote/hammer tomorrow (as it seems most likely Looker).

The more I reread the more I come to the conclusion that in most of my possible scumteams tictac and surprisingly Creature show up.

Regarding tictac I can only repeat to look at the vc 1.05-1.12, because that's where the whole transition from the tictac wagon to the FL wagon took place. At its peak the tictac wagon was all town minus Maria. When the FL wagon came up and tied with tictac 3:3 in votes the FL wagon was all town. Only then when the town players were leaving the FL wagon it was when Creature slot and tictac joined the wagon (Non actually brought the FL wagon temporarily into the lead with 4 votes). Finally Maria broke the tie with moving from tictac to FL and made it 4:2 for FL.

So either tictac is scum and scum had to take care that FL wagon wasn't losing steam as counterwagon or tictac is town and scum preferred to keep the FL wagon alive over pushing tictac as FL already softclaimed "Cop" at that point.

tictac/Looker/Creature, all of these are good for a lynch imo. Creature isn't going to happen today so I might save stuff for later, but I find it odd that this slot is flying under the radar for most of the game. I just went through Maria/Looker's, tictac's and Garmr's ISOs and no one really gave a read on that slot nor interacted much with them, just recently obviously. Too tired for jan's, but I think she mentioned them at least once or a few times.

[Skellen]

@jan:
Have limited access at work rn, so I will do it without quoting.

Read Una's post again, he crumbed a Vig shot (pistol) that he was going to holster and an investigative ability (grandpa's spyglass ) that he would use in that night. And as you said, ascetic.

Thought it was over the top, but well he crumbed it.

[Skellen]

Also I really doubt that there is a scum Neighborizer, way too many false positives for FL, especially if not all scum are prs.

I suspect they are in some way informed of the Masons though.

[Skellen]

Eh, let's save it for postgame.

Just checking in as I am about to leave.

Tbh was expecting a jan kill too. Blocked or not, tictac isn't the worst "guilty" at first sight as I thought Maria's D1 vote on him was exactly the kind of vote you would do on a partner, also from wagon placement. Have to think some things through though.

[Skellen]

@Garmr:
It's the same team that I had as conclusion. Will maybe add some stuff regarding Creature later.

Btw why did you want to go for Creature over Looker yesterday? I mean you didn't but it was my impression that your scumread on Creature was tied to Looker.

[Skellen]

He really is.

[Skellen]

He really is.

lol
last time i saw 3p masonry in a 13p it was the only pr's in the game.
still claiming a guilty on a partner would be super-crazy for scum-jan.
did skitt go into detail on why she thought it was plausible?

Yeah, it's why we were very sceptical of any other pr claims. I think in the recent year there were at least two other normals with three Masons, one large with three masons and Motion Detector and one mini with Masons and two town Neighbors and a loud Doc. So pr wise it seems to work either way.

skitt's thoughts why town!jan was plausible? She couldn't make sense out of it how jan's role works with ours setup wise. However she thought the odd-night modifier made it better and that jan couldn't fake her reaction to Garmr's fruit gambit as scum if you compare she acted with her real N1 result and her fake N2 result. Like there seemed to her that there was a layer of "I just know my target is town" in her play around skitt and Garmr on D2 in contrast her soft guilty that she was claiming. More or less paraphrased skitt from the pt.

[Skellen]

Personally I really dislike jan's role as the loyal modifier makes the original ability of the Motion Detector useless and it just looks unnatural to me. There could have been 5 conftown on D2 if she wouldn't have targeted skitter and that isn't even considering FL. There even exists a scenario where scum loses on D2 with a D1 scum lynch and both jan and FL getting two separate guilties on the other two scum in N1. It's also odd that scum prefers to kill off the Masons first when jan had a target pool of four with two scum within, so even if they block her the chances are even that she would claim a no result on scum.

But eh, skitt calmed me down regarding that and tbh I agree. I feel like she is doing things that she wouldn't even need to do as scum and I don't know why you would fake a guilty on your partner and ultimately bus him if it wasn't even that apparent he would have ended up as a lynch on D3. I mean it would ultimately lead to victory for scum!her, but why taking the long way?

Also if you get a motion result on skitt in N1, you know someone did something on her or she is a pr, so you just kill her in N2 then. Unless they really were afraid of a Watcher.

If I go by poe I don't really know with whom she could be partners then. I don't see Garmr/jan due to their D2 interactions, tictac would have been the most likely but she just claimed a guilty on him. Creature maybe, but then again I don't know if Suji would start bussing jan out of nowhere on D2 when there was already some fundament with Garmr suspecting her. Leaving only Wake.

[Skellen]

action failed on tictac

genuinely think that i probably would get an action failed on any of them but eh

was gonna say, obviously there's a blocker, but maybe not?

???
Unless you think jan is fakeclaiming there being no blocker would mean you are scum? lol

[Skellen]

vote on looker day1 while scumreading leaf looks like wanted to stay offwagon cause knew what the flip would be.
then didn't mention looker on day 2 at all

This is actually something that I second and want to see a response by Wake. The only thing that came from Wake regarding Looker was that he shouldn't have been townread that easily.

[Skellen]

How does ninja work with the roles claimed because that's what looker flipped.

tictac more or less responded to that.
The existence of a Ninja implies the existence of a role from the Tracker/Watcher pool which the Motion Detector is part of, so that could make sense.

Maybe just a red hering again, which is imo gross. But most important it made Looker a pr and so a guilty for FL's role. skitt was speculating that scum is pr heavy, but rather with useless roles.

[Skellen]

also
i don’t understand how there’d be 3 masons and a ptcop and a basically-cop so i’m just gonna say one of them is prob faking (as town? or maf? rn i townread both of em)
i think it’s useless to fake claim because it’s confusing town and preventing us from making informed reads?
and it’s not really achieving much

but whatever i’ll just leave it alone for now
feel free to hardclaim and share all the wifomy stuff with all of us whenever u want i guess

Yeah, let's not crawl down this rabbit hole. skitt was pretty obvious with crumbing our Masonry on D1 with her readslist in this #548.

[Skellen]

Ah yeah, in the end skitt's final reads were from scummiest to town Garmr, tictac, Creature, Wake, jan.

She felt pretty confident that Wake is town, because she doesn't see scum!Wake going after Masons and Looker's vote on him didn't seem like a bus to her.

[Skellen]

Also to make the setup by our part complete, one of us Masons also is a Mason Encrypter.

I already brought that up in the pt yesterday as I feel like the Creature slot slipped tmi on D1 in Non's last post.

I can read gamestates better than all of y'all, sorry to tell you but it's over

you tried, did great, but skit/mason ain't having it and I'm done waiting

dullards, er, I mean town,, reread the game and focus on leaf, he's looking for his pals

gamma is their encrypter

figure out the rest on your own, gg

replace me out if you intend to keep playing
not that kind to replace out on my own

sorry leaf, I too am shackled by my wincon
might screw around a bit, but shackled nonetheless

oh, and in case I'm wrong, I'm new, so all is forgiven?

~kbye~

p-edit
happy holidays y'all,, little early, but might not be around later

I found his comment on Gamma odd, because why would you bring up the Encrypter of all roles? Which is why I was speculating if scum might have been informed about us Masons with knowing that there is a Mason Encrypter and scum maybe not having day talk so Non was communicating his suspicion about Gamma this way before replacing out. Also notice how Gamma reacted to that post aggressively, so they could have thought they might hit on something with that by chance. Although there were more than enough reasons to kill Gamma of course.
The mod mentioned an Encrypter unfortunately in the op regarding day talk or not, so there might be the chance Non got it from there though.

Personally I also don't like how he addressed others as town and talked weird about his wincon. Problem is that Non was trolling around for the whole time he was part of this game.

[Skellen]

Nah, I assumed he meant Saudade there who already said several times he is Mason.

[Skellen]

@tictac:
Who do you think is the scumteam rn?

[Skellen]

Im expecting tictac creature and wake to be fighting to the death rn

Well, right now tictac is shadow boxing.

VOTE: Creature

[Skellen]

Does anyone scumread me(mason) btw?

Looker thinks me and you are a team combo

Do you have me confused with someone else? Maybe that was a joke.

Do you have me confused with someone else? Maybe that was a joke.

sorry you and una look the same. Lol I don't know why I keep mixxing up una with other people.

Doesn't feel like a SvS interaction. I think you would be more perceptive when interacting with your partner, although I wouldn't rule it out to be in Garmr's bag of tricks. Similar with Garmr mistaking Non with Una when he pushed Maria. You are more careful what you write if you are trying to distance from your partner. Well, at least I assume so.

[Skellen]

I TR tictac's hammer. I'm also leery of skitter forcing the claim order. Why?

This was before jan claimed her "guilty" on him or even voted him. Not sure if he wanted to draw a false associative with tictac, but usually you keep someone who quickhammers warm as those are usually pretty mislynchable or get some kind of backlash.

[Skellen]

Also, you prod me before Wake? What's up with that?

I might be reaching here for straws, but Looker was genuinely annoyed at that point when he was posting, so I don't feel that's something you would necessarily write about your partner. It gives me the vibe that he felt unjustly treated thus complains that someone from the other team gets away with the same inactivity.

[Skellen]

[Skellen]

UNVOTE: Saudade

I can't tell if he's bluffing or lying but I do know 3 Masons is not possible.

3 Masons is fucking insane, and I don't think the Review team wou be that stupid. So he's either bluffing or lying, and Skellen is anti-Town by going along with the bluff just because she Townreads him.

Three Masons in a normal 13p game seems to happen though. viewtopic.php?f=53&t=79261 was the most recent one.

Also can we please not waste time on Mason!Saudade? I already pointed skitt's crumb on D1 out, I mean you just have to look how skitt and me have been treating Saudade for the whole game. I literally came in townreading him as first person and joining him on his vote. Even just by votecounts you can see that always at least two of us ended up voting together.

Wake, who is scum? And it's not Saudade.

[Skellen]

I am already looking forward so much for the fourth player for the Creature slot.

[Skellen]

VOTE: tictac

[Skellen]

do what ya will, but do ask yerself this: did scum-tictac actually lynch his only buddy, knowing what he was gonna flip, and knowing there was a guilty on him?

To be fair with a guilty on you, scum!you could as well just push Wake for some last distancing and then the lynch on Wake went unexpectedly through.

Tbh what confused me yesterday was that despite the guilty no one really pushed for tictac, besides Creature with his naked vote while a Creature lynch almost went through and ultimately Wake got lynched instead. I don't understand why scum weren't taking that easy mislynch if town!tictac.

[Skellen]

The more roles get confirmed with these misleading scum roles the more this setup looks ridiculously townsided if jan is town, like I feel even an ungated Roleblocker can't do much against two roles that give hard guilties on scum.

I mean if you assume no town pr gets mislynched D1 and jan confirms someone outside of the town prs and scum kills neither a pr nor jan's target then it's technically 6 conftown + 2 unconfirmed town + 3 scum on D2. Assuming town buys all town pr claims of course. If the two unconfirmed get lynched and killed on D2/N2 then it's basically over for scum. Even with Roleblocker that is tough, there is almost no room for mistakes. Even if the pt Cop outs the Masonry on D2 scum has no wiggle room in their kill choices.

To be fair jan claimed a motion on skitter, so she definitely would need to be a Motion Detector or another investigative role to know that skitt indeed were a pr using her ability. Unfortunately skitt more or less hinted her Mailman in a tictac interaction before so scum!jan could have guessed it if she paid attention. Overall impression by play is town, but that role...

[Skellen]

The right way to go is lynching tictac though. If red, great. If green, it confirms that there is a Roleblocker or jan is lying. It would also confirm that all major D1 wagons were town.

I can hammer in a few hours when I wake up and head off to work or jan will eventually do it if everyone is fine with ending this day. I don't really care as there isn't really a point to draw it out longer than necessary.

[Skellen]

In case tictac flips green:
Both jan and Wake had the chance to hammer Creature, jan was gearing up to it, so there is the chance she didn't want to rush it and was caught off-guard by Saudade changing his vote from Creature to Wake. Although I think she would have gotten away with a hammer there. Also not sure if Wake had 2/3 of his scumreads in his D1 readslist on both his partners.

Wake however literally provoked Saudade to come at him in #2232 and actively lured him away from the Creature wagon. He asked in the same post to wait for Creature, as he was townreading Suji (never explained that read though nor interacted with that slot). Could support the Roleblocker theory with Wake taking the bullet for Creature.

It might be useful to go through some Wake interactions though. Just don't rush it with the infamous instant lylo vote if you get there. But maybe it will be just over with tictac lynch, so what.

[Skellen]

Well played Creature/Garmr.

Thanks for modding, Aaron. You were always on the spot with it regarding questions, vcs etc., you did very well. No redactions for the pt as far as I am concerned.