Mini 626 - Crew vs. Pigs - GAME OVER!!

[forbiddanlight]

Vote

Cass

cause it's her birthday and I didn't have a gift ready. Also the fact that if Cass means Cassandra and that's her real name, then her name matches my real name, and we can't be having that.

[forbiddanlight]

Hey there .

[forbiddanlight]

Well, that's all interesting. For now, I'm inclined to trust it because it's one hell of an unsafe gambit for scum to claim like that. Hopefully the cop will check him sometime, given there is a cop.

[forbiddanlight]

Oh gee, thanks for not even mentioning me. I posted an opinion on it that it was too unsafe a scum gambit so I believe it for now. Argh, I hate being ignored on forums.

[forbiddanlight]

Yep, which is why I'm sticking with believing it for now and letting his behavior prove him wrong if he's scum. I think that's fair, right?

Er.. I didn't forget, I just... thought your post was so special it deserved a post of it's own for its mention!

Forbiddanlight believes it too.

*gives forbiddan light a cookie. [/bribery]

This, with your avatar, actually managed to make me laugh. Good show.

[forbiddanlight]

I don't like teams or groups. It creates false dichotomies. I don't like to see anyone pushing the idea of groups either. As for the claim, I think if we have a cop this needs to be investigated, even if it seems like a waste of an investigation. I've actually never run into a situation like this before, and I have no idea what to really do. For now, I guess just keep on discussing and see what happens.

[forbiddanlight]

Unvote
Vote : Forbiddanlight

Why? This has no reasoning.

FoS Kison

Oh yeah, random over and all, so

unvote Cass

Hm...I don't see what the fuss about camps is. I'm sure we know better than to judge people based on which perspective he/she had on a single event alone. Clearly it can't be that scum buddied up to form a group, so we shouldn't expect to base suspicion on groups.

You'd think, but people sometimes do it without realizing it. It's a psychological effect, which is why I'm against any groupings unless it's a clear scummish connection that can be proven right or wrong by a flip.


Anyway, right now, there's been a lot of somewhat non committal speculation on what the claim might mean. I don't like that, and I'd rather see us trying to figure out what to do now. For now, I think our bulletproof townie should be lynch proof. Leaving him alive D1 shouldn't pose much risk. However, I don't see letting him live til lylo, in case this was a scum gambit. Does anyone agree with that? Either way, what to do now? I mean, if you want to keep discussing if he's the godfather as the deadline slowly approaches, be my guest. I'd rather discuss what the specific reactions meant, as ting appears to have been doing. And I don't mean the general agree/ambivalent/disagree reactions, I mean the specific posts of opinion. Course, if that's already been done, I apologize for missing it :S.

[forbiddanlight]

Could you please clarify this?

I guess you can only "prove" something so far by a flip. But I mean, if there are obvious ties between two people, and they've been acting scummy, I think then a lynch by group is smart, taking into account the first lynch's flip.

I dont like the idea of saying he will or will not live to see lylo. I think it would be better to not lynch him atleast for today and let him run the show for who to lynch. Then atleast we can base his claim and the lynch together and get an idea. Of course this could be at the expense of the rest of the town. I am at a stuck on how to move on.

I understand this view. I guess it's not wise to plan anything that far ahead. I just wanted to put the idea out there to see how people reacted. Still want to see. Quite frankly, for how to move on, I like this plan:

Thus far, I agree with the no lynch today, but I really don't think we should give him that much clearance. Near as I can tell, at this point his role benefits him the most and has negligible town benefits, so I don't think we should go too far forward with a nolynch position on darkdude.

Note: this isn't to say that he should be lynched at any point because of the claim either, just that he should be treated more or less like every other person. If he acts scummy, he gets it... Wink

Best idea I've heard all game. I'm down with that. the claim in the end should be considered a null tell (like others have said), but that doesn't mean we have to disbelieve it, correct? Because I'm leaning true on it at the moment.

imo, darkdude should be at the bottom of the list of investigation targets. As stated, I don't believe this is a scum gambit unless he's investigation proof somehow. In my mind, there's like a 95% chance he's going to come up innocent in any investigation, so I'd say investigations would be better spent elsewhere ...

I'm on the fence on this view. On the one hand, I REALLY don't want to risk it being a scum gambit and coming up guilty, costing us the game, so I favor investigation. On the OTHER hand though, if he is scum, he'll likely give himself away just by his play eventually, especially given the spotlight he's thrust himself in. The more you post, the more likely you are to slip up, I think, so, not investigating might make more sense because it would be a waste given the odds are for it coming up innocent regardless of alignment.

Yeah, looking at it, you've changed my mind, I'm against investigating him. but in the end, it's up to the investigator.

[forbiddanlight]

Why would it be unsafe? And an early vote: Forbiddan for the cop direction.

Why would it be unsafe? At the time I was forgetting about the godfather. It begs investigation. And really, cop directing? Meh, I suppose. I wasn't really. It wasn't like "OMG, cop, view him tonight". As far as I was concerned, if we had a cop, checking this guy eventually would be the play. But, I also left it at a hope. The cop does what the cop wills. And aren't you in theory directing the vig with this:

Here's the thing about the claim: if he's an investigation immune GF, it's brilliant PROVIDED there is no SK or vig. Certainly, in the hypothetical situation where i am a town vig, I test the claim tonight.

So, really, I don't think you should throw the "directing scumtell" around so cavalierly.

[forbiddanlight]

I guess I can see that. Whatever though, I really WASN'T trying to direct the cop. I guess my comment could be interpreted as such, but you'll see later I retract that position and go to it'd be a waste of an investigation. If telling the cop NOT to view someone is directing too, then take a look at Matin and anyone else who has said they think an investigation is wasted on him.

[forbiddanlight]

Then what was I trying to do? Speak my thoughts on the situation. And alright, fine,

un-FoS Kison

. I understand you were giving me a chance. But still, we don't even KNOW if there is a cop, and really, the cop will do whatever they are going to do. What someone says shouldn't affect that.

[forbiddanlight]

chenshi, you generally defend a bandwagon like that. I was prepared to go at bat for you saying I didn't like how quickly that bandwagon started, but if you are going to roll over without a defense, I can't say I blame them. I'm not gonna join it because I'm not fully convinced that you didn't have good reason, but I want to hear that reason, and fast. Your saving grace is the fact no one has provided more reason than your really annoying lurkiness, and there was too much "I agree" to see that wagon as really legit.

[forbiddanlight]

The "can't be arrested by rats" does nothing to suggest he would be immune to all night-kills from a Vig or such. It seems to be an interesting contradiction that reeks of scummy play. Then I find it interesting how when questioned about it he immediately transitions to "lynch the lurker". Quite the nice distraction for him, I believe.

Vote: Darkdude

To be fair, I'd rather test his claim with a potential vig shot. Make him untouchable today, and if there is a vig, hope they choose to shoot him. If there is no vig, or they choose not to shoot him, just lynch him then. Well, actually, lynch him if the evidence still supports it, but you get the idea. And of course, if there is a vig and he shoots darkdude without success, then we can trust his claim more, likely.

[forbiddanlight]

Ugh...yanno what? If Chenshi doesn't actually defend himself before 9 PM EST tomorrow, I'll take him to L-1. I mean, at first I thought it was a really crazy wagon, but judging by his reactions, he's rolling over and dying, possibly in an AtE. It's scummy.

[forbiddanlight]

Please note I haven't had a chance to reread to be honest, and apparently thought I said I'd do a reread, not just vote based on defense or lack thereof. I've been posting elsewhere, but mostly single things taking in at most a page of information. I had to replace out of one of my games already. I actually thought I said I'd do a reread first, not just expect a defense. I actually didn't think I said something that loose. Well, now, I'm going to do a reread before I'm voting anyone, since for once I have time. As for "short amount of time", it didn't seem that way to me, but I realize that these take longer. Anyway, your point is noted, Kison, and I said something that bespeaks imprudent haste that I'm not gonna follow through on. Expect a feelings post within the next 2 hours or so.

[forbiddanlight]

Right now, I've gotten as far as page 4 on my reread. It'll be a while longer, but I'm trying.

[forbiddanlight]

Ugh...I have to save it. I'm mostly through page 6, but I have to make dinner, clean up dishes, sing in choir, and be back around 8:00 PM EST. I'm really sorry about this, but I think it will be worth it to see a fresh in depth look on things.

[forbiddanlight]

Actually, what happened was when I planned to get back last night, it was later than I thought because of some random life things. I'm seeing a psychologist shortly, and SHOULD be ready to finish up my reread when I get back (likely 1ish, meaning it'll likely be up between 2 or 3). This is provided...interesting things don't happen IRL (they shouldn't). Either way, the reason it's taking me so long is because I type a summary while I read so I can examine everything in brief and put it all together in the context of the player. That summary typing is what takes me forever.

[forbiddanlight]

ALRIGHT! I finished the summary! Feelings to follow. (this part takes a short time)

[forbiddanlight]

Also, AtE is Appeal to Emotion. Sorry that wasn't clear. Now, starting:

raider: I don't like what I see much at all. He seems more concerned about the set up than hunting scum. And while everyone else doesn't believe he was rolefishing earlier, I damn well do. Also, I didn't like how he said there was no deadline. There is a deadline, 3 weeks from the start of D1. Is he trying to lull us into complacency? Either way, while he's done somewhat scummy things, it's actually not that strong a case. Oh yeah, also, there seems to be a bit of covering for each other between DD and raider. If one is scum, I would heavily favor a close look at the other and likely a lynch. I lean slight scum here for now.

Cass: I like her. She thinks about things, such as DD's claim, which she definitely gave a lot of thought to before making it null in her eyes. However...she took a meta read on chen...and then kept her vote on him despite this being SOP for chen? I don't like the fact she hasn't unvoted him if this is normal and he's at L-2. Also not good is "Let's kill a less than useless townie"...than again, compared to no lynch, it's not as bad for policy. Considering most of her behaviors have seemed town, despite the chen issue, I lean slight town. But I want to hear her explain why if chen always does this she's still for killing him.

Matin: For the most part, town oriented. He started believing DD, but as he noticed discrepancies which he looked for he got to FoSing him and encourage DD as vig kill. However...we have that policy lynch attitude with chenhsi:

"imo, the speed of the wagon is bothersome, but as of right now I think Chenhsi is probably the best target for it. Either he's scum or useless town (which isn't a horrible thing to shake off on day 1)"

This isn't good. It's less justifiable than Cass' as well. I'm not really sure on him for now, so neutral.


This is the summary I wrote for myself. I'm not gonna analyze it. I'll leave that to you guys. I hope it helps.
forbiddanlight: Votes Cass based on her name and her birthday. Also says hi. Responds to roleclaim inclined to trust it, says cop should investigate sometime if there is a cop. Points out Ting forgot her. Sticks to believing it unless DD's behavior proves him scum. Agrees with raider about groups, due to false dichotomies. Also doesn't know what to do, might as well keep discussing. Also says cop should investigate DD. Unvotes her random vote, FoS' Kison for his unexplained vote. Still hates camps, saying it's a psychological effect that will take place. Wants reaction analysis now, beyond the agree/disagree analysis, thinks that for now DD doesn't need to be lynched, but shouldn't live to lylo. Explains that seeing obvious ties between two people means that if one is scummy and is lynched, and turns up scum, the other should be heavily considered the next day. Agrees planning too far ahead would be bad. Wanted to see reactions to her idea that he shouldn't make it to lylo. Also, agrees with Matin's plan that if DD is scummy, he gets it. She still wants to believe the claim, even as a null tell. Talks about the cop thing, how she's 50/50 on it, but after looking at it, she agrees the cop shouldn't investigate DD, it'd be a waste. Answers Fonz, saying that when she said it was unsafe as a gambit, she forgot GF, since a claim begs investigation. Denies she was directing cop, just saying it might be a good idea, and left it at hope. Accuses fonz of vig directing. Understands Fonz' point, points out she retracted her stance, and wasn't trying to cop direct anyway. says if telling the cop not to view someone is direction, look at Matin and others who feel it's a waste. Says she was trying to speak thoughts on the situation, un FoS' Kison, understands he was giving her a chance, but that cop may not exist, and really, the cop will do what they want. Comes back, posts how the chenhsi wagon was too fast, and states she would be on it if it weren't for that. She wants to hear chenhsi actually defend himself. Would rather test DD's claim with a vig shot, if there is a vig. If the vig doesn't shoot him, or there is no vig, lynch him if he keeps seeming scummy, and if he survives a vig shot, trust his claim more. Threatens to take chenhsi to L-1 if he doesn't post by 9 PM EST the next day. Feels that chenhsi is reacting as scum, and trying to AtE. Says she thought she said reread before voting chen, not a time limit. Either way, she's going to reread now and post in 2 hours. Also says the time felt longer than it was, and her earlier comment was imprudent haste, so she won't follow through.

Kison: Moves around a lot. I don't get good vibes from him, but he's on the level given the analysis. Maybe it's just OMGUS. But basically, he does ask good questions...I just would like to see how he reacts if the spotlight ever lands on him for some reason. For now, lean town, despite my gut.

cubsfan: So wonderfully lurktastic. Wonder why we don't have a wagon on him yet. the dislike of DD's claim was warranted...the vote wasn't I don't think since most of us were for a vig test. What nags at me is for the most part cub has lurked, and says the chen wagon is a distraction made by DD. It could be he's afraid if chen is lynched for lurking, he'll be next. But...that's just being paranoid. Really, I don't have enough material to lean either way...though he does seem to try to get others to do the leg work. Call it slight scum at best.

Ennui: Also semi lurkish, but contributes when he does post. Has good thoughts on the reason for DD's claim, well, at least good at putting forth alternatives. What bothers me a bit is the question about factions. Why do you need to know? If you are town, kill scum. If you are scum though, knowing about another faction to use might be beneficial. It's weak though, just something I thought I'd point out. Favors a chen lynch with reasonable spin on the lurking explanation. It's actually reasonably good the way he put it. But anyway, I do lean slight town because he's trying, even if he's not posting all the time.

Ting: I feel REALLY bad about him, as I'm about to get into. What got my eye on him was the fact that he quite often attacked raider based on the supposed NK immune GF argument, when anyone who was bothering to figure out what he meant would know he was thinking in an only mafia situation. The fact you pressed it after that was adequetly explored bespeaks you trying to look insightful by pushing a bullshit case that isn't even related to raider's scumminess. The other stuff he's said hasn't been much for me either way. I pretty much lean scum here.

chen: The man of the hour, and wow he looks bad. Every post he's made has been essentially irrelevant to the game, and when he's in trouble, he rolls over and dies. In fact...it's kinda reach a level of scumminess that makes me wonder if he's honestly scum or just a horrid player. But, either way, it's anti town to roll over under a wagon if you are town. If you are scum, the only reason to do it that way is the appeal to emotion I mentioned. As town, any wagon on you should be fought to the death, and THAT is why rolling over is a scum tell. Either way, I hate the early hypocrisy and the later giving up...so I still lean scum here.

DD: Has claimed a role, but his play has been somewhat scummy. If DD is scum, I'd be looking at raider as scum too. Raider seems to be backing up everything DD says, and when this is pointed out, suddenly DD starts going against raider and saying he's probing for his own interests. He's also too non committal. There is always something scummy going on if you look for it. To be honest, I agree, you either are who you say you are and play a bit too much for yourself, or you are the Godfather. Hopefully, if there is a vig, we'll get this distinction tonight.

Ghyrt: Another chen voter, but with the same sort of hypocrisy on lurkers and the idea that if you don't post, you can't slip reasons for voting (as Ennui). I think this looks better than that "bad townie needs to die" policy lynch attitude. I lean slight town.

The Fonz: Replaced in around page 4 or 5 IIRC, and looked alright in the vig/cop direction debate...the only problem is where is he now on the current debate? All he's said is something about players needing to deal with lurkers, but doesn't deal with the lurker so to speak. I don't like this apparent difference, or the fact he hasn't been around much. But, I don't have much to go on for feeling town or scum with him. Given his earlier views, I will lean slight town.

Alright, all done...my vote is now up...and to be honest, given that I don't like either Ting or chen, and chen is too close to lynch to push right now unless we have more,

Vote:Ting

for the reasons outlined above. Sorry, it just looks too much like you've been trying to seem effective without actually debating anything.

[forbiddanlight]

Wow, I think thats a really good summary, dont like that you think I could be scum however with me standing behind DD I can see why. Just to explain that a little I just stand behind him because I want to give him a chance.

It's really weak on you. And that wasn't the summary, that was the feelings. I kept the summary to myself unless people REALLY want to read an incredibly long post that tells you everything you already know. And as I said, I only lean slight scum on you for now, and feel a lot is contingent on the result of a vig test of DD if there is a vig.

[forbiddanlight]

He seems confident he's NK proof. A vig kill would merely test that, and if it failed, it would gain us an asset in having a confirmed human (well, mostly confirmed) that can't be NK'd. Course, it'd be annoying if the vig kill did succeed and he was human...but in my opinion, without the claim, I'd possibly be considering voting him because he has been relatively scummy (of course, that's also in the context of this game where he did claim, and that was a rather big part of all the discussion, so I guess that wouldn't exactly make sense anyway). But either way, the vig is the best test for that claim. I rather hope there is one, lol.

[forbiddanlight]

It's also interesting that your longest summary was on your own moves. I don't really think there is a need for someone to summarize their own play, and this is the first time I've seen this done. So I can't say if this is something out of the ordinary or just due to my inexperience.

That's because that was from my summary text. That wasn't a feeling analysis on myself. It basically just says everything I've done thus far. Basically, the first two analyses I did on this site had a summary in one post, and feelings in the next. People would usually tl;dr this, so I'm trying a different tack. However, there's no point providing feelings on myself, so I give you the straight summary so that you can determine what you want to do. Feel free to check it, you'll find I include everything.

Uh...I'm positive that I am human, and not a chimpanzee, so I don't know what you're talking about Laughing

My apologies. Originally what got me into mafia was TWG, so sometimes I slip and say human instead of townie. If I say human at any point, I mean townie, and if I say wolf instead of scum or mafia, I meant those.

About your specific case on Ting though, I'll need some more time to look over those pages again before I can evaluate it.

Part of it is gut, and the fact that as I read, I really disliked what he was doing to raider, since it was a patently ridiculous argument.

[forbiddanlight]

ting's fixation with the whole godfather/NK immunity struck me as odd as well. He seems too smart not to have grasped what Raider was getting at, but I don't really see any scummy motives for that line of conversation to be honest.

Appearance of contribution. He posted a lot. When you post a lot, it naturally makes people trust you more. Take a look at the lurker attitude . It also seemed like he was making a point...the first time maybe .

As for chenhsi...I lean scum on him, as I said, but I don't like some of the reasons people are voting him. If he dies and flips town, I think I'll be elevating my scum read on some of the people who went with "Let's kill a less than useless townie". Realize we have 12 days to decide (deadline is the 28th). There's no need to rush chenhsi.

[forbiddanlight]

- Point out who's votes you dislike, and what reasons they gave that you dislike.
- Point out what your reasons for voting Chen would have been, and how they differed.
- Exemplify the 'reactions' you didn't like from Chen.

Well, the first one is answered if you actually read the analysis rather than just pretending to because it looks better for you to make bullshit cases, k thx.

The secone one...hey, that's ALSO answered in my analysis. I really don't think you read it.

Finally, the third one is also answered in my analysis. I think you didn't read it, and are trying to kill me off for some unknown reason. Your case is rendered bullshit when you actually read what I have to say in that post I made. I did backtrack, yes, but that's also because I honestly forgot what I said. I'm human, that sometimes happens. We now have a replacement for chen, and I want to see what happens with that. Happy with my Ting vote, btw.

Oh, where in the analysis did I answer? Let's SHOW you

chen: The man of the hour, and wow he looks bad. Every post he's made has been essentially irrelevant to the game, and when he's in trouble, he rolls over and dies. In fact...it's kinda reach a level of scumminess that makes me wonder if he's honestly scum or just a horrid player. But, either way, it's anti town to roll over under a wagon if you are town. If you are scum, the only reason to do it that way is the appeal to emotion I mentioned. As town, any wagon on you should be fought to the death, and THAT is why rolling over is a scum tell. Either way, I hate the early hypocrisy and the later giving up...so I still lean scum here.

This covers any reasons I'd have for voting chen (early hypocrisy, later giving up. I also explained why rolling over is a scum tell).

Also, there are clear differences between the policy lynch attitude of MAtin:

"imo, the speed of the wagon is bothersome, but as of right now I think Chenhsi is probably the best target for it. Either he's scum or useless town (which isn't a horrible thing to shake off on day 1)"

And the attitude that uses more evidence of say, Ghyrt:

Ghyrt: Another chen voter, but with the same sort of hypocrisy on lurkers and the idea that if you don't post, you can't slip reasons for voting (as Ennui). I think this looks better than that "bad townie needs to die" policy lynch attitude. I lean slight town.

I think it's clear what I was looking at in the chen voters, and if you had actually read my analysis, you'd have no need to ask these questions. I don't lean as much town on you now, but I guess you MIGHT have made an honest mistake and missed that. Try to make my gut feel a bit better about you Kison...I'd probably vote you if I had evidence.

[forbiddanlight]

I dont know about you but if I had evidence on anyone I would vote them.

That's why I said IF I had evidence. All I have are REALLY bad vibes from Kison, and it's possibly just OMGUS. But I feel really uneasy about Kison, and I have no idea WHY! I can't vote him based on that.

[forbiddanlight]

If no, please tell me why you think scum would be more likely to 'roll over and die'. And for the love of god if you already answered that do not explode in fury.

IT WAS ALREADY FREG...oh, ok

Yeah, I already answered that.

But, either way, it's anti town to roll over under a wagon if you are town. If you are scum, the only reason to do it that way is the appeal to emotion I mentioned.

As for specific reactions. There was the "Oh A bandwagon. Am I supposed to say something? Cause I have nothing to say" the "I work better when I can answer questions" And when presented with questions answers them in a rather offhand, offputting way. I admit my attack on your case was born of fury, and I really don't know why. I guess this game I don't really like what you are doing and I took it personally :S. Ah well, anyway, I think in my gut that something is off about you. I really don't know why, and since I can't back it up well except with possible perceptions that are easily argued, I'm not voting you. Especially when my current vote looks worse, in my opinon.

Uh...I don't feel this is a very good sentence. What do you want him to do? Make you feel better about him? Okay why don't we have everyone feel good about everyone else?

If I TOLD him what I wanted him to do, then he'd do it. It's for him to figure out, and there are probably several answers. It's mostly I hope he does something that assuages my gut read on him.

[forbiddanlight]

ForbiddanLight and Goatrevolt? Awesome. Twisted Evil

No, this isn't spies, Kison. I'm not a mafia roleblocker, and you aren't chasing after me in a cat and mouse game . Also, cicero isn't here .

[forbiddanlight]

EBWOP: Of course...cicero is modding...so nevermind, lol.

[forbiddanlight]

Darkdude's claim would already have made any role with a killing ability (eg. vig) wary about targetting him. Raider's addition would have made any role with an investigative ability wary of targetting darkdude too.

Its called a godfather, or he is town both will show up innocent. The general thought is if we have a vig test is out otherwise for the time being just move on.

This. If I were a vig, I'd be shooting Darkdude tonight. If he's really a bulletproof, he should be fine. If he's a godfather, BANG, we've got scum N1. However, the trick is...is there a vig? Honestly, I'm liking my vote on you right now, Ting. As for the Ennui debate...put in that light...he looks worse. I only object to the reasoning point. Later, doesn't he respond to you, Kison, about why he thought chen was a good play? However, I'm mostly splitting hairs there, and actually feel the need to reevaluate Ennui, especially given what I and others have said about him...

[forbiddanlight]

Works for me. I'm not entirely happy with the Ennui case. Not many people are being unique in their points on it. Then again, I think I'm just a bit too wary of wagons in general :S.

[forbiddanlight]

Actually, Forbiddan, I want to hear your thoughts on my case on Ennui. You've talked about the Ennui wagon and the nature of the people voting him, but I'm interested in what you think about the actual points against him.

I think I agreed with most of it. Except that minor point about chenhsi voting reasons. What I meant by the wagon comment is I'm just over nervous about them, when they spring up like that, and everyone is echoing everyone else. It's a personal flaw basically. I will withhold a vote on Ennui til he gets back and defends, and also because I like my Ting vote for the aforementioned reasons and the really weak defense that insists he's right. There are some points you cede when you realize you are wrong. That was one of them.

[forbiddanlight]

Cases will be up tomorrow when I have more time to think, organize and type coherently

Good, I look forward to shooting down whatever patheticness you send my way

I still am worried about balance issues, as all town should be.

Why? We aren't playing against the mod, we are playing against the scum.

While I expressed my belief in the validity of DD's claim that he was an un-NK'able pro-town, I was not swept away by the breadth of his power. I was hypothesizing as to the existence of a mitigating factor to his power.

Why? If the scum don't know, there's no need for them to find out if there is any. We don't know what the scum know, so the less information around DD's role, the better (except in cases where it only helps town, like Kison's vig fish).

Is it so absurd that there would be such a lopsided character without someone on whatever other side there is, to oppose him? Do not misunderstand me, I would be thrilled if I was wrong, and DD is a character who is nigh immune to the scum, but a lack of jubilation, and a look for information into the nature of a high power-role is hardly a scumtell.

I disagree. Certain information that you look for isn't a scumtell. Looking or possibly letting slip the possiblity of multi scum is. We won't know anything til N1.

While my alternative theory is clearly drawing great suspicion, I would like to direct your attention to those advocating a vig-direct. For, instead of simply exploring possibilities regarding the role, certain players advocated the outright killing of him, just to prove a point. I would ask you to reconsider who is scummier- he that would put forth a hypothesis or he that would direct a vig, (away from him/herself(that we don't even know exists) and kill a potentially great ally.

Several times, DD has claimed he's immune to vig kills. I want to test that. It begs to be tested, actually, since it could be nervous scum attempting to direct the idea of being vigged away from himself.

The number of factions is absolutely relevant to the play, and I condemn in the strongest language anybody who wishes to say otherwise. If there are multiple families, there are multiple deaths, and those that do not appear to get along could still both be scum, while not exactly "scum-buddies," as it were.

Yeah, but what's the point of speculating when we'll find out in the night phase?

Yes, I admit that my post was in the wrong place, overly abstract and borderline counterproductive, and I apologize for that, and recognize that I would call someone else on the same thing (this is only my second game, though this is, of course, absolutely no excuse for anything).

This last makes me nervous. Especially pointing out your number of games. even though you say it's no excuse. Clearly, you think it is, or you wouldn't have brought it up.

But I still believe that it would be advantageous for us to play D1 whilst laboring under the assumption that there will be two, not one people dropping dead tonight, and that the scum may not be as homogenous as we'd like to think.

No. Because, ya see, we only get one lynch. And the night will show us whether it's worth laboring under that speculation in later days. But, it's not like we can kill people who are connected all in D1. It's much better to assume 1 scum group unless otherwise proven. It allows our theories to form in the manner most likely to be correct. And if there are more groups, theories are malleable. We can fix them accordingly.

As for my vote, I believed that there was a compelling case against chenhsi, and I believe, as this current bandwagon more than proves, that every vote does not have to bring forth more information. Regarding my use of the word "nefarious" I believed, as four others of us did, that his silence was willfully impeding the scumhunt.

This is the only thing you say that feels even remotely true. But, there's also a point where silence is impeding the scum hunt, and talking impedes the scum hunt. Your talking has done that if you are town, and if you are scum, so much the better.

Even those who now accuse me being premature, simply reiterated the points made by those above them, the only difference between us was that I was the only one who pointed out that I was reiterating, but there are four others that you could just as easily condemn for the exact same thing.

This is probably why I didn't like your wagon, but I'm beginning to realize that when a strong case exists, there comes a point where all you can do is piggyback it. I don't LIKE to do this, but I actually realize this exists.

Responding to allegations of lurking on my part, I realize that I have posted less frequently than my fellow players, and I seek to amend that. While my posts have been far between, I like to think that they bring forth relevant information. (they clearly have, given the scope of the case against me)

Good. But, you've creating some damning evidence against yourself.

I shall claim, if my comrades believe it to be necessary. \

This is the only reason I might regret doing this...but

Vote:Ennui

, Point by point your post is scummy, and I doubt soft claims like this because it's easy to wriggle out of. I'm making push come to shove because even if I didn't LIKE the wagon, this post is just...what the hell.

[forbiddanlight]

Well fuck. Not sure I believe it, but for now,

unvote, vote Ting

. Back to my original case.

[forbiddanlight]

It sounds quoted and I take that as more/less true

Roles can be written if they need to...but really, it's just I don't WANT to accept it because I was expecting to see some half assed role claim that could have holes shot through it. This is pretty valid...but it makes DD look a little worse.

[forbiddanlight]

How does it make DD look a little worse? I atleast understand a little more now and see how he could think he is vig proof.

2 bulletproofs? Even one who only gets one night? It's beginning to look sketchy. While it's possible...I don't like it.

[forbiddanlight]

Why, the only people who shouldnt like it are the scum?

Why don't I like it? That begins to make it seem unbalanced. But, then again, it isn't us against the mod as I said. It's just...you usually don't see multiples of a role like that :S...argh, I'm conflicted really.

[forbiddanlight]

Alright, alright, I'm convinced. I try not to piggyback logic, but as usual, goat hit on the main points and there's not much one can do with it. I think that's why I felt uneasy about the claim. I subconciously noticed some of these things. So...sorry to flip flop again, I'm sure I'm gonna catch hell for it, but

unvote, vote Ennui

. I said I didn't like his claim, I'm putting action behind those words.

[forbiddanlight]

But I don't understand the urgency? Seems like he's either getting mod killed or lynched at this point anyway, so wouldn't it be better to see if he's modkilled and then get a chance at a second lynch before any NK's?

For balance reasons, it SHOULD. Otherwise, the game gets all screwed up. At least, my personal opinion.

[forbiddanlight]

An important point is, if the scum are being issued with bulletproof vests, there must be another killing group.

SK or vig perhaps? Town can kill things, ya know . And we've been trying to direct a vig that may or may not exist.

[forbiddanlight]

Well, one or the other, obviously. (I don't think a second scumgroup is particularly plausible here, actually).

Doesn't have to be or, but we'd have one fast game if it isn't. And I could see and SK fitting a lot better than a second scum group. Hell, I could come up with flavor right here for an SK.

[forbiddanlight]

If you want to paraphrase your SK role PM to us, I won't stop you.

Haha, I wish. I'd love to shoot things at night. But it stands that it's more plausible to see an SK than a second mafia group. But...it's more plausible to see a vig I think. Really, I could see either, but a vig makes more sense given the ideas of loyalty in a crew, and the idea that someone's gonna not want to bother with this democratic shit. An SK, while justifiable, goes against a flavor of flushing out rats within a crew, though I guess it could be a rogue cop who doesn't care who he hits :S. Either way, I think this is getting to border the idea of playing against the mod. We'll find out tonight, ne?

[forbiddanlight]

I would prefer lynching FL and letting the mod kill of Ennui, two scum D1 would be great.

Too bad you'd only be getting one, if any, assuming Ennui is scum. Your case is stupid, and you haven't even presented it yet.

[forbiddanlight]

Oh, and the fact my vote is back on Ennui, is it not? I didn't like the claim but jumped off because it was believeable. In the light goat gave it, it's believeable as scum.

[forbiddanlight]

A case is coming but given our dealine is basically "whenever the mod checks in" throwing out a piece of it is something I am comfortable with for now. I should have cases on you and raider up later tonight at the latest

Good. I'd love to shoot down whatever patheticness you throw at me. I'd give it up now and not waste the effort. But then again, when I successfully defend, we'll be wasting less time later.

[forbiddanlight]

Did...did you just pull a Sophia? No, seriously...did you just do what I think you did? What the hell!? (note, pulling a Sophia will be recognized by Goat, llama, myself, cicero, and Kison.)

[forbiddanlight]

Everything else is in post 360, holds even more true given Ennui is obv-scum. But as I was writing this Ennui made a interesting claim. I will hold my vote until everyone gets a chance to say something about it though. I still think we should lynch FL and let Ennui be modkilled though

You don't want to do that. But, we'll move on from this assertation with actual logic.

Yes, lets have the cop check the power role [/sarcasam]

Why not? I eventually admit that the cop directing isn't that smart, but not because DD claimed a power role. It's mostly because it makes no sense if he's scum claiming and doesn't have investigation immunity.

Cop should not be investigating if you think that it is a waste or just because you don’t know how to play this situation. Relying on a cop in any situation is stupid too, telling the cop what to do is even worse, even “suggesting” as you seem to think you are.

Stupid doesn't necessarily mean scummy. But, once again, I eventually realize this is a bad course of action. I honestly was only suggesting. If I wanted to direct, I'd say "Cop, do this, bitch".

No no no no no. A thousand times no. This is one of the worst ideas we can be taking, if memory serves raider rivaled it at one point but this is truly an awful path to even be thinking as town.
First off, you say we shouldn’t lynch DD today, that is good logic. Then you open up with the idea to policy lynch him later in the game because he is a liability since he might be scum. You either should believe him now and never want to lynch him based on the claim, or, you don’t believe him now and want him lynched D1 based on the claim. There is no way that you should ever come up with the idea of, lynch him later to be safe. Lynch him if you think he is scum, let him live if you think he is town. I am surprised you never got more votes for this one, especially considering I know some of the players in this game. Funny that it was Raider who shut the argument down.

Another stupid mistake. So I've played stupidly. Doesn't mean I'm scum. I think I retract that position later too, as well. Policy lynches in the end are stupid, and it took me awhile to realize that. Now, however, I take issue with something you say here. If you believe him at one point, D1, and decide not to lynch him, that does NOT mean that future situations allow him to live indefinitely.

Well this is a very quick turn around from the fact that you want to policy lynch DD later in the game. You now want to follow the plan that Matin puts up (which probably is the best plan). At the end though, you say the claim is a null tell, and you believe it. This does not line up with the fact that you wanted to lynch DD late in the game. A null tell is not something you look to lynch for, you don’t want to lynch a role you believe, so why did you want to lynch DD a little bit ago?

Well, because Matin had a good plan that made a lot more fucking sense than mine. Of COURSE I'm going to switch ideas. As for the null tell thing, I was being paranoid. I don't like confusing things making it to late game. I had the same idea in another game that town won in, on DDRFreak. However, I also learned from that paranoia isn't always smart concerning late game policy lynches. Either way, people have the right to change their mind.

Flippity floppity you go again. This time regarding the previous nono of discussing the cop investigation. You want him investigated because you don’t trust yourself or the town enough to catch DD if he is scum, however given how discussion is going, cop investigation would mean nothing unless a GF flips. Now, you change in the same quote to not wanting the investigation, because of odds and the fact that you now trust the ability to catch scum. Choose a side.

I did. Cop shouldn't investigate, but it's cop's choice, given we have one. I was working out my thoughts in that post. I sometimes do that. I post what I think...got a problem with me not censoring my thought processes?

Lots of stuff here. You tell chenshi how to defend, then you move on to saying you want to defend against the attacks for him, how noble of you. Now you move onto the fact that no defense means the wagon is more legitimate, and looks like you are threatening a vote on him if there is no response in the near future. But then its wrapped up with defense, saying that the reasons for voting is weak. Great fence sit here, allows you to vote or defend be choosing the correct part to quote.

Well, I don't like fast bandwagons. Just a carryover from other games. And yes, I did threaten a vote on him. I also misremembered my specific criteria. I like the criteria I thought I put better (pending reread). A time based vote is another stupid idea I had. I think you should be happy I rectified my bad play before executing it.

Now you are directing the vig to kill DD. I still think directing any role is scummy as it allows scum manipulation during discussion.

Vig directing is arguable as scum or town tell. DD's claim should be dealt with in a way that makes sense. (changing my view on this after I'm done defending). Given what he's told us at that time, he can't be vigged. So, telling the vig to shoot him would make sense to confirm the claim (at that time).

Now you take the chenshi scum path that was previously mentioned available. You call his roll over and die thing though AtE and therefore he is scum, I call it lazy. Also you don’t vote him, just give intention to vote, there was no real reason to put him on a personal deadline. You never went through with this either for some reason. I saw no chenshi defense, just forbiddan deciding to do something else.

Yeah, well, I was compelled by the cases, and in the end actually didn't mean to use the deadline at all. I wanted to reread, not do that. Either way, it's down there to haunt me, so whatever. I think I already defended that, actually...

More vig directing. I still am concerned though he is just scum proof given the flavor of this game. Connections in high places doesn’t sound like something that stops a vig or SK. If DD gets NKed by the vig, at least one of these people pushing for him to get vigged is scum looking for a way to NK him.

Well, he seems confident he can't be killed by vig. I feel fine asking for someone to test that. I have a better idea now...but that's at the end of this post. You might be right in the end. I don't think you are.

But Raider is suspect of yours. So was that distancing or is Raider town?

It's probably distancing. Or raider might be town. raider was only slight scum, if you recall. Also, just because someone has scummy actions, if someone is scummier related to the one with scummy actions, that doesn't mean it isn't evidence. Can you HONESTLY read Ting's posts and think he wasn't purposely posting that stupid argument to look like he was contributing?

But you didn’t vote him when you gave him a deadline, and you didn’t vote him when your deadline was reached. You aren’t even voting him when you type this. You instead are throwing away a vote on someone who you aren’t getting any support for, or even seem like you want support for.

I want support for it, but I presented my case. If people aren't going to follow it, fine. Especially given the other interesting cases going. There's no need to distract from scum lynches. My gut didn't like Ennui or the wagon. Well, my gut was right, and goat articulated what triggered my gut. I'll probably gun for Ting much harder tomorrow. That is, if we get a lynch today. Cause, ya see...

If you read Ennui's post, it's heavily implying DD is his scum buddy. This is WIFOMable as hell, but you must admit, DD has acted scummy most of the game. And given Ennui's full claim, and apparent frustration, I'm all for a DD lynch now. A vig kill would be wasted on him, don'tcha think?

So,

Unvote Ennui, Vote DarkDude

I figure Ennui will be MK'd for that last stunt.

[forbiddanlight]

FL second guessed the wagon forever so works better to me. Ennui being scum makes me even more sure of this. Ennui was obviously scum power so other scum would be more hesitant to wagon him off. Not to outguess the mod or other players, but firstly this can be WIFOM, more importantly though, especially when Ennui claimed town power, that would be more then enough to drive off scum. Like FL.

Tunnel vision. Don't get caught up in me or we'll have more problems.

What is a sophia?

In spies 5, a really extensive game of mafia, I was a player named Sophia. And I was the first spy caught. So, before the votes came in, I claimed spy, outed a role (that I actually didn't know was my spy buddy's...long story, but it was the game set up), and created a WIFOM situation with my exit. It would have worked better if I hadn't precisely shot my unknown friends in the foot. But either way, Ennui did something rather similar, except in a more frustrated rather than strategic way.

[forbiddanlight]

I dont like this at all. We know Ennui is scum so you remove your vote? If the mod kills Ennui that is one thing but we do not know what will happen and the only thing currently in our control is to lynch a 100% confirmed scum.

DUDE! ENNUI JUST QUOTED HIS WHOLE FUCKING ROLE PM! If cicero DOESN'T modkill him after that, I'm tempted to be replaced, since the rules aren't being enforced like they should. I want to see punishment for that one. Anyway, if he isn't modkilled, of course I'll be on the ennui lynch. It's just that, there's no reason not to get started on our next suspects since Ennui appears to be a dead man walking.

[forbiddanlight]

I dont like the connection to DD either, Ennui was questioning him about his role remember? I think scum would know eachothers roles a bit better. What I gather is that Ennui knew that his role was similar to DD when he claimed, and was trying to make sense of it. I dont see this pairing, and now that you are trying to vote the powerrole, wow.

Yeah, because scum in control of their game never distance from each other. Ever. The two shot comment is what seals it for me. It's possible Ennui is WIFOMing us. So fucking what? Have you even LOOKED at DD's behavior? Or were you too focused on trying to get me killed because you might have picked up on something? Post raider's case now. And then I want you to reread DarkDude, and tell me to my FACE I don't have a point.

[forbiddanlight]

Ennui was dead man walking, so I don't know that re voting him makes you appear more town..

Well if he wasn't then, he is now. And maybe it doesn't. To be honest, I believed he was scum after seeing Goat's case on the claim, since I already didn't like it. Usually the knee jerk reaction to a claim is to unvote. Maybe I shouldn't use that to defend myself, but it's true.

Examples?

Prepare for a tl;dr raw summary of DD's actions:

Darkdude: Claims bulletproof townie. "I am Guido Gnocchi and I have family connections with the top officials in the police department so I cannot be arrested by the rats". However, thinks this means we have more powerful scum, or alternate kills for scum. Wanted to breadcrumb to lure scum into NKing him, but said rule 10 stopped him, but it doesn't, he just misunderstood crumbing. He says that it's probably for the better since crumbs tend to be misinterpreted/ignored. Answers Kison saying he thinks his power stays the same unless some other role affects it. Didn't consider cop investigations, and thinks scum might try to kill him anyway. Just says the Godfather possibility is a what if. Says raider would be suspicious if darkdude himself were scum, but his posts otherwise aren't suspicious assuming dark is town. Asks which post Ghyrt was referring to in the raider case. Agrees it was out of place, but the others were fine. Counters raider saying that people would say it eventually on their own. Says if there was a lynch case, obviously the majority of players wouldn't believe him. Says the claim effects the odds of townies screwing up by making them lower. Also claims he was inspired by another thread with a WIFOM like that, and hopes the scum target him. Suspects scum power roles, says the situation he linked was a lot different, but the WIFOM factor was there. Says that reactions to his claim were good because they give an idea of player behavior. Disagrees that Kison is looking bad for fence sitting because he asked for more info. However, Kison's activity was low and DD awaits his reaction. Agrees that the claim at L-2/1 would be bad which is why he claimed now. Lists reasons why it's protown, relating to scum hunting, player reactions, WIFOM, etc. Feels that bulletproof claim close to lynch is a bad idea. Says his role says he can't be eliminated by NKs of any type. Counters ting saying that the WIFOM reactions weren't what he meant, he meant overall reactions. Admits for the most part his claim helps himself. Is fine with camps, figures scum wouldn't buddy up. Goes from the top against Ting, saying that he's being inconsistent liking discussion but not discussion from the claim. Says Ting is claiming raider said something that raider did not. Says he claimed to avoid being lynched. Wants to hear more from chenhsi. Points out the chenhsi is being hypocritical calling out lurkers. Denies having a plan other than playing aggressively. Doesn't want a mass claim. Feels chenhsi is fitting his usual meta. Interested in the Kison/forbiddanlight thing. Explains the discrepancy by saying the role claim was a paraphrase with the rats, and game wise he can't be NKd. Asks cubs what to do about his claim. Suspects raider for using his claim to probe set up and doing this for his own interests. Likes raider's rolefish for a counter bulletproof role. Votes cubs for inactivity, hasn't seen any real scum, just forbiddan shifting position and raider's early game. "If I had only left it at "I cannot be arrested by rats", then it would be confusing" relating to the discrepancy. Points out where he outlined the mechanic in claim post. Discourages set up guessing, votes chenhsi thinking the lurking is more than harmless. Requests chenhsi replacement. Reiterates the can't be arrested issue, and is displeased to see two lurkers. Asks about AtE. Says that if chen is town, then we can look at that pushers tomorrow. Also only sees chen as an option compared to no lynch. Says he doesn't find no lynch an option. Points out the lurker strat isn't valid in cicero's rules. Says cub should ask questions rather than make others do the work for him. Says no one wants chen dead immediately, just want to vote. Says he wasn't rushing, just that he was pressure voting.

I think if you read that, you'll see he hasn't precisely played the most pro town game. First, self serving claim. Second, discrepancy between claim and mechanics. Third, a bit of dancing on the no lynch issue. Finally, there is that lovely "chen is fitting his meta" thing, then a vote for chen later. There's probably more, but those stood out to me.

[forbiddanlight]

Bear in mind this was to the page of my analysis.I think that was page 8. Actions since then aren't recorded yet.

[forbiddanlight]

I know you guys say he will be mod killed but I dont like to think that will happen. For someone to get mod killed it just sucks for the mod. I would rather make this thing go as the mod wanted it to and lets lynch him not only for being scum but for ruining all the hard work that went it to making this game.

By no means does that mean that we shouldnt be looking out for his partner.

Honestly, the best move for the mod to maintain balance is to have the modkill put us into night. He may or may not do that. If he doesn't, I want to see if we can use anything Ennui said. It isn't fair, but it's just a game, and the scum just lost part of it. cicero's decision to put them into multiple groups does mean that the game isn't entirely shattered.

[forbiddanlight]

fwiw..

Ennui first speaks of claiming in post 278, which is 16 posts (and ennuie's first) after DD said he put him at L-2 in post 262...

Still not buying DD

Bussing? seems Ennui thinks he got bussed.

[forbiddanlight]

ARGH! You all made me bored again! I was having fun defending .

[forbiddanlight]

I am going to stick with my vote as that is who I want lynched/mod killed it doesnt matter, they need to be gone from the game. If we dont go into night that would be cool but for the game to have the flow it was meant to I dont see any other choice.

Then you are honorable. Keep that and stuff in real life. I'm just a bitch and will take anything I get.

[forbiddanlight]

Mostly a completely WIFOMable situation given his claim and yours. I mean, if we don't lynch you, then I hope the vig tries his luck.

[forbiddanlight]

Alright, pretty much I think you guys have it pretty air tight on cubs. I really can't think of anything to add. I'd be willing to hammer, but The Fonz has a point about letting everyone check in. I think I might be the last one though. As for me being on the other cop team, we can either discuss this now or tomorrow. I really don't care. In fact, that's another good reason I'm not hammering yet. I want to see the specific case on me in one post. Odds are because I just skimmed the shortness of this day I missed it, but I'm also a narcissist. I like having posts dedicated to tearing me apart .

[forbiddanlight]

CubsFan's vanilla claim doesn't mean much one way or another. I see no reason not to hammer once we're ready to end the day.

My vote is at the ready. I just want a consensus on how we'll deal with me.

[forbiddanlight]

I count at least 3 posts fingering me as scum. Now, I could hammer cubs and see if people are gonna push my case the next day, or we could try to resolve the idea that I'm scum now. I'm not, and I want to get people off my case so that we can concentrate on finding scum. So, I want to see if my accusers want to inquisit me now, or if they want to wait til we've seen cubs flip.

[forbiddanlight]

EBWOP: Posts should be posters. Cass, you (kinda, you still suspect me but not as much as cubs), and I think there was someone else.

[forbiddanlight]

Forbiddan, you were one of my top two picks for Ennui's scum partner, but then Kison pointed out that it was a he. I think you could definitely be part of the other scum group, but I'm not seeing any reason why we need to discuss that today.

One lynch at a time.

It's fine by me. I wanna see what Cass has to say on it, as well as anyone else who might think I'm scum.

[forbiddanlight]

Because, you see, if I hammer now, it'll seem like I'm running away from the cases people have for me. I'd rather not toxify the next day that way, instead letting my accusers choose when to accost me.

[forbiddanlight]

Maybe but unless someone thinks you are Ennui's partner you will not be the lynch or even the chance of the lynch for today.

I'm aware of that. Most of the people accusing me think I'm on the other side. But, I do agree with goat's opinion of one lynch at a time. I'm just letting my accusers make the decision so I can defend allegations on their terms.

[forbiddanlight]

What do you mean?

Probably the fact we basically completely ignored his last post to argue about whether I should hammer or not .

[forbiddanlight]

Works for me. I wanted to hammer though. I never get to hammer .

[forbiddanlight]

Alright, I think now is the time to help you assimilate some information. With 6 left, I'm dead soon anyway. I am Frances "Hothead" Castelloni, the crew's vig. So far, both my vigs have failed. The first vig was on llamafluff, because I thought he was trying to build a case on me because I was giving off vig tells and was scum. Bad logic and OMGUS on my part. But hey, that's why I'm 'Hothead' Castelloni. The second night, I chose to target Darkdude. I expected that to fail. Given the cops arrest and I shoot, I'm really good with a Darkdude lynch today. However, it's entirely possible he's Ennui's partner, and if the scum can crosskill or anything, then that would be signing our death warrant. Personally, I'm unsure who the other scum are, but I think we should be able to figure it out with only 5 elements to choose from. (or 6, if you really don't believe me...maybe I'll pull an Ennui and quote my role PM )

[forbiddanlight]

Oh yeah, the reason the llama kill failed was because apparently arrests occur before my bullets.

[forbiddanlight]

@forbiddan: how do you know arrests go first? Was that in your role pm or in a Night results pm? And why are you now so convinced DD is scum? Your kill failing is perfectly consistent with his claim.

Easy. I tried to vig llama. I got a message at day start that my vig failed. That was because he got arrested first. Why am I convinced DD is scum? I explained in my claim post. I shoot, cops arrest. Why does town have to be bulletproof? I suspect one shot immunity myself.

[forbiddanlight]

@Forbiddan: one more question: why did you not shoot DD night 1? I thought you agreed that a vig should try that?

Because I felt stronger that llama was scum. I let my emotions get in the way of logic. I thought that I was giving off bad vig tells, and he was building a case off those to get me lynched. Right now, that logic seems incredibly stupid, especially when I actually type it. But at the time, that's what I thought would work. Clearly, I was wrong, and the scum took care of llama anyway. I decided to finally go with shooting DD tonight since I didn't have a better target. Ironically, I went through most of D1 laughing at how I was the vig and I was going to do just that and target DD. Then llama rubbed me the wrong way.

@Goat: If Forbiddan is right and arresting is faster than shooting, your plan will fail horribly. So I really first want to hear from Forbiddan what makes her believe that is how it works.

Answered this as I said. Read the post above you.

[forbiddanlight]

Was the second sentence in the message? Or was that your own conclusion based on the nightscene cicero posted here?

AH. He PM'd me directly saying "Your vig attempt fails". Got the same message before today started trying to shoot DD.

[forbiddanlight]

I'll ask cicero for clarification. I kinda assumed.

I believe forbiddan's claim. I will heavily boggle at shooting LlamaFluff night 1, though.

OMGUS in the most deadly manner possible. Like I said, the logic sounded good at the time, but it kinda fails when you write it out.

[forbiddanlight]

I have a thought. What happens if we kill a scum pairing? It is possible we get our crew back? Thus the difference between arrests and kills? I'm not sure we should bet the game on it, but it might be worth a chance. I wanna hear thoughts on this. The only problem I see is that unbalances it in our favor again, since we get confirmeds back...so I could be barking up the wrong tree. But it's worth considering I think.

[forbiddanlight]

ok. My kill goes through even if I'm killed, unless someone elses role screws it. I'm not opposed to your claim cass, but I'm wary of any mass claim. We know the scum is roled.

[forbiddanlight]

Yeah, I kinda realized that as I was posting, but figured I'd put it out there. It's odd that he's specifying the precint :S.

[forbiddanlight]

My apologies for that cicero. Wasn't thinking about it.

[forbiddanlight]

That's a good thing. It shows us which night kills belonged to which scum groups.

*headslap* Duh...well, that was stupid conjecture. But, it was a hope. It's just, to me, the game seems kinda screwed now. Couldn't all three cops claim and lock the game now? Or are there three? Is it possible that it's not a pair in the other group?

[forbiddanlight]

There's nothing clearing you right now, but I'm inclined to trust you. Goat less, but that's on a gut feeling. Given my gut on llama, I'm less predisposed to follow it. I'm perfectly fine with a

vote:The Fonz

.

[forbiddanlight]

Obviously. I advise you vote yourself after that stunning defense Rolling Eyes

Kinda my thoughts, lol. I'm impressed by how...weak that was. Also, more I think on it, the more I think we only have 3 scum over all. I think one of the groups is a lone actor and that we were lucky Ennui was in a group. Otherwise, by all rights we should have lost.

[forbiddanlight]

And your claim that I never voted has been proven a lie.

So yeah, scum much?

More like an honest mistake I think. Though she was eager to claim. SEriously, even I couldn't remember when you'd actually voted, and I was the target of your vote.

[forbiddanlight]

You are sealing your grave Fonz. Town defends, scum deflects. What you are doing right now is heavy deflection with half hearted defenses. I like my vote.

[forbiddanlight]

LEt's see, you hesitated a lot on the Ennui issue, even when the standard issue thing was pointed out, you said that's the only scummy point against him. You voted me for directing the cop after I had rescinded that position. And you never unvoted, seemingly not keeping up with the events going on. I really don't see much action from you after the cop direct debate, to be honest. You kinda float in and out, not taking strong moves.

[forbiddanlight]

No, I meant cop direct. Do you not recall why you were so sure I was scum D1? Reread your own posts. It still felt like hesitation on ennui. The way you phrased that post about the standard issue seemed to be downplaying it.

[forbiddanlight]

Oh, and she's softclaimed an investigative role, she can't possibly have anything incriminating on me, and so she must be scum.

Fallacy, she could have an investigative role that's not cop but still makes you look bad. Let's say she's a watcher or a tracker for the crew. She could have seen me attempting vigs, and thusly why she was trying to push a case on me yesterday, and she could have seen you going for kills. I think it's possible.

[forbiddanlight]

Your claim is the most notable thing you've done. Also, I was responding to someone who said your claim is a town tell. It's not, because if you're town it shouldn't have been made.

Ennui is the opposite- the 'standard issue BPV' thing is actually the single biggest reason to believe him scum. Though it's irrelevant in any case, since if that is a direct quote, I can't see how cicero has a choice but to modkill. And if he doesn't, there's a lynch all liars case.

Try quoting the whole thing. There's a slight redirect to DD. And you are attempting to make Ennui look better by saying there's only one big reason to think he's scum.

Unless you think he's Ennui's scum buddy, what do you think his downplaying of Ennui suggests?

Hmm...well, Darkdude fits as Ennui's scum buddy a lot better...so I really don't know. It's just seemed hesitant. It's possible he picked up on Ennui being scum after En quoted his PM and was trying to protect him. It ends up being conjecture.

As for how it confirms me and implicates Fonz, that was just a theory. Really, it only works with my claim...so, Fonz, unless you want to claim vig and PROVE to me you are scum, I don't know what night action you could have that you haven't claimed yet. you are at L-2.

[forbiddanlight]

Except that she didn't see me go to anyone who died. She didn't see me do anything that could be considered even remotely incriminating.

That was an example. You seem really keen on going against what was simply an example. Afraid I'm too close to the truth?

[forbiddanlight]

What is the point of protecting someone who is SO OBVIOUSLY going to be modkilled?

That's what I wanna know.

True, but it's only two votes. And no basis. Stop fishing.

Part of me wants a massclaim because I think it might help if we take things critically. Part of me says it's a bad idea because we have roled pigs. I'm actually fishing hoping that if you have a role it helps indicate your alignment. Could be the wrong way to go about it.

Sigh...it's too weak for now.

unvote Fonz

.

However, I still have my eye on you. I recall a game where the scum didn't give off many scum tells all game, but in the end, the town lynched her and they were right...I don't know if you played good scum so that any case is weak, or I let myself go brain off for a short time and am being tricked by Cass.

Cass, if you do have a claim, you might have to use it if it ascertains Fonz' alignment.

[forbiddanlight]

THERE IS NOTHING THAT CASS COULD HAVE SEEN TO IMPLY SCUM FROM ME IN ANY WAY. NO TRACKINGS, WATCHING, SELFWATCHINGS, GUNSMITHERY, COP INVESTIGATIONS, REDIRECTIONS, ROLEBLOCKS, OR VIEWS FROM A FLYING PUMPKIN

You forgot Fast talking and ninjitsu.

[forbiddanlight]

Understandable, I guess we'll hold off on lynching anyone . I hope you feel better.

[forbiddanlight]

Wow, thanks for proving yourself scum for me DD. Weren't you the one claiming that you were protected from vig kills? Cause I certainly attempted on your life and it failed. Your own story contradicts your own story. You are basically making the case that everyone ELSE made against your claim now. "Oh, I can't be arrested by rats, but all NK attempts fail on me". An NK attempt fails on you "Oh noes, I don't believe forbiddan's claim, because I only can't be arrested by rats". I'm half a mind to vote you now.

[forbiddanlight]

And the fact that no scum pair has hammered Fonz yet (before FL unvoted) would suggest that at least one of the following are scum:

Hammer is at 4, not 3.

[forbiddanlight]

As a matter of fact...it occurs to me that 1 NK from the scum is a lot better than two. I'm going to

Vote:Darkdude

. I would like the town's opinion on who I should shoot tonight, though it will be my discretion if I think I'm being manipulated by scum.

[forbiddanlight]

(i'd have to believe based on FL's other post that DD arrest would go through and then the vig shot. )

I had this clarified. If I shoot someone, and they aren't being arrested, they die. Even if I'm arrested, my shot will go through.

Hang on though, FL. He does have something of a point. What is your rolename and flavour?

Did you read my claimpost at all? No, seriously, did you? I'd like you to actually read that post, then ask me any questions you may have. You seem to have skipped over a lot of things conveniently.

Also, looking at it again, you kinda confirm CASS' point! you are so CLEARLY trying to protect DD here it's sad. Did you NOT NOTICE the INCREDIBLE contradiction between DD's earlier claim and what he's saying now?

Sorry if the above isn't explained very well, but it seems to me that lynching DD is the strongest strategic play, unless someone is certain of someone from another scum team, but even with that is fraught with danger. Cass seems to be inferring that she posseses such information, but it also could be a tempting scum ploy as a mislynch today in a 3 vs. 2 vs. 1 setup is very likely fatal.

I agree with this. Because I feel the need to reduce NK's is higher than the risk that both teams are bulletproof. Seriously, what's the point of having a vig if I have to shoot all the cops twice in a game that's very hard to make last more than 3/4 days. I'd have to have near perfect aim to be effective at all.

I'm not going to lynch The Fonz simply because you say so. Not at Lylo. If you're scum you can force down a mislynch and win, and it's not worth the risk.

This. Is it really based on role info or just what you observed here:

We lynch Fonz because he is not Ennui's partner. We shoot DD because his vest is already shot to hell. This is pure logic, risk-minimizing. I could claim and we might still win this, but the risks would be considerably higher. At least half of my audience are cops and I hate giving them any more information.

Why are you sure of this? The game seems really unbalanced if we have 4 bulletproof cops in a 12 person game. I think you possibly are trying to give us an idea that's untrue because you know better. Just a feeling. And I'm less sure of that given what I think of Fonz.

I'll stick with DD for now.

[forbiddanlight]

I didn't? Well, it's pretty clear that I shoot. I'm a vigilante dammit, and said the word shoot several times.

I won't quote my role PM, but I'll paraphrase the relevant parts.

Let's see, I've already said my name and that I'm the crew's vig. It pretty much says that I sure as hell ain't gonna wait for votes to find scum, and every night if I think I've found a pig, I'm gonna shoot him.

Not much substance, I just shoot things. I'm kinda depressed now...the cops got these elaborate roles and all I get is one paragraph .

[forbiddanlight]

FL, what do you feel about massclaim? You and DD have, Cass will probably have to (thoughts on my argument as to why her not claiming is ridiculous). That only leaves me and Goat.

I'm ambivalent. On the one hand, I see it's benefits, but on the other, the cop claims are going to be a lot sneakier now that Ennui revealed how easy it is to screw up. It's also a lot harder to verify. But, I actually have a feeling that crew roles can see through cop roles with enough analysis. Sooo...I guess go for it.

[forbiddanlight]

Forbiddanlight, I am willing to fullclaim and divulge all my reasons, if:
- You confirm that you think it's worth the significantly increased risk.
- You unvote DD first. Instead vote Fonz, Matin or no one as you prefer.

I think the only way you could convince me on Fonz is basically claim evidence. Since Fonz is willing to claim to, I don't see anyway out of a mass claim, and I'm willing to put my analysis skills, as well as everyone else's, to the test, since I think if half of us are cops, we should have lost.

I still dislike your argument about why we shouldn't lynch DD. But...for NOW, I will

unvote DD

.

[forbiddanlight]

Do it. I think it'll help me figure out who's scum and not. But, I guess in the end I'm playing against the set up. Let's go.

[forbiddanlight]

Alright. Hmm...not sure I buy it or not, buut, for now, it's believable. And resets the balance of the game.

[forbiddanlight]

Sure, Fonz, claim first if you like. I do find it interesting that Matin is not on your list, what's up with that?

Good point, I didn't notice that.

[forbiddanlight]

Kinda another defense of DD there.

Who did you protect and why?

Actually, it further confirms DD is full of crap. Because Fonz is certain his protects prevent all NK attempts. DD just tried to reverse that on us. I'm amazed you didn't hit him for that, Fonz.

[forbiddanlight]

Night 1, I blocked Forbiddan, because she seemed the scummiest. This is why I kept questioning her about the cause of her failure that night. Night two, I blocked Kison, because I thought he was Ennui's partner.

Well damn. And I thought it was cause I shot an arrest victim. That's rather ironic.

Why is Fonz scum?

[forbiddanlight]

Currently, here's my thought. Cass and DD could both be scum. After I claimed vig, she seems really keen on me shooting DD again. She could block that if she's a mafia RB. I feel that her roleclaim is less solid than Fonz's. But I can't be certain of that. I want to see what everyone else says. Either way, if we decide Cass is scum, she needs to die today and I do need to shoot DD tonight. If we decide Fonz is scum, I'd prefer lynching DD and shooting Fonz, to see if I get roleblocked.

[forbiddanlight]

Ugh, but this all relies on trusting you! And I'm not ready to do that. I HATE this position. I honestly feel that Cass is scum, she'll roleblock me tonight, she's a lone actor, and DD is Ennui's buddy. I want to lynch DD or Cass, preferably Cass. But, then again, if Cass is telling the truth, then we are screwed if I don't vig DD and we lynch Fonz. Dammit...what to do! I want Mr.Logic Goat to come in and weigh in!

[forbiddanlight]

Yanno what!? Screw it. The games risky as hell anyway, and I trust my intuition.

Vote Cass

[forbiddanlight]

unvote

I thought on it a bit more. It feels too wrong. I know, I'm flipping like a fish out of water, but it's so hard to decide. For now, I'll unvote. When I get back, I'll make my decision.

[forbiddanlight]

Reread some and see if what I say makes sense. Wait for the scum's response if you want to. Don't vote too fast, there's three little pigs around and they want me dead now.

What makes you so sure of 3 pigs! That's what is pissing me off! If there were 3 pigs, all they'd fregging have to do is claim pig, and lock the game! They win! In fact, when I came out as vig, all they had to do was say "kk, we are cops, we all vote forbiddan". Anyone trying to claim to be a cop would have to vote me, and they wouldn't if they were protown. The game is screwed with 3. It only works out if there are 2. However, if the pigs would like to come out and try to lock the game, I'd be happy to see you try so we know who to vote.

[forbiddanlight]

Forbiddan: there are two teams of cops, each team has to get rid of the other to win. (If not, this setup would be extremely broken). So for the pigs it is a prisoners dilemma. Ennui's buddy does not want to be found by the second team, because they would get rid of him. If he claims, he loses the game

why, flavorically? They are all part of the same idea, pigs. I don't know what the rules of cross arrests are...actually...

Mod: If you are able to tell us, are there any specific rules relating to cross arrests? And what is the win condition of the pigs?

You're overlooking the idea of multiple scum teams and how it plays a role here. It's definitely possible that there are 3 pigs and the game isn't over.

I was kinda hoping the pigs wouldn't pick up on this and claim. I was taking a chance, but ah well.

Here is my overall thought. We have Fonz (Doctor) and Cass (Roleblocker). Both have the potential to screw stuff up tonight if they are scum. Fonz could block a kill on a scum buddy and Cass could roleblock the vig shot. My initial thought is that one of the two is scum and the other scum are Matin/DD. If I'm correct, that means we'd have to correctly lynch whichever of The Fonz/Cass are scum to avoid having forbiddan's shot blocked tonight.

Personally, I think our best chance is to lynch Cass, and have me shoot a target of my choice to WIFOM Fonz if he's scum. However, we could be screwed if Cass isn't scum, so we have to be careful.

[forbiddanlight]

Well, I'm definitely glad you tracked me, just a bit curious why. Also, why Ting N1?

Furthermore, this practically confirms you due to the fact that I don't think the pigs have 2 watcher trackers. OF course, that also makes it a safe claim :S...ah well, it's a chance we take. I see this game as having 4 elements, 2-3 of which are potential scum. Well, really, 3 elements, since I'm pretty sold on DD being scum given his backpedalling and attempt to get me lynched. So, 3 elements, Matin, Fonz, and Cass, 1-2 of which are scum...hmm.

[forbiddanlight]

FL: I will not block you, I will prevent an arrest! Also, if I were planning to block you, why ever would I need to direct you to DD (or anyone in particular)?

Bad logic on my part. Fonz would fit a lot better for that. However, can we be sure that you will prevent an arrest? Honestly, if we guess wrong, games over, you are a mafia RB, my kill is blocked, I'm killed cause we lynched the doctor, and pigs ruin the crew.

[forbiddanlight]

Flavorically, I'd say they are competing teams, someone like their district commanders (or whatever the rank is called) wants all the credit for cleaning up this mafia crew. That's also why they are hiding from eachother. Makes perfect sense to me.

I guess that's possible.

Unless you think there is an sk cop or something.

This was more along the lines of what I was thinking. But, it's just conjecture.

[forbiddanlight]

Ok, honestly, I don't like The Fonz' play upon reread, compared to yours Cass. But your play could just be the mark of skilled distancing. I really still don't know what to think, and you seemed over eager to lynch Fonz today. We need to be careful right now.

[forbiddanlight]

Cicero, I see you in this forum. Can you at least answer my question saying you can't answer it if you can't?

[forbiddanlight]

Ah well, worth a shot. Really didn't think he'd say anything.

[forbiddanlight]

Same. I know he was in this forum, but not sure if he saw the thread expanded by 2 or 3 pages and said fuck it, or is being avoidant.

[forbiddanlight]

Assumptions: a pig can either arrest or use their power in a given night, not both. DD's vest is broken.

This is the main flaw. Can we take that risk? Did it say anything about that in Ennui's role PM?

Also, I wanna see a Matin claim.

[forbiddanlight]

You want the crew out of business. Dead or arrested. You also want to make sure that YOU get the final collar. So if there's anyone else working this case, you want them in a jail cell and out of commission too. After all your career is at stake. You win when everyone but 18th Precinct is eliminated.

Well, there's your 3 scum proof right there anyway. Sorry I missed that.

Each night you may send me the name of a person who you and your partner have chosen to arrest. You must specify who is performing the arrest.

This supports your assumption, actually.

Alright, I'm in favor of the plan.

[forbiddanlight]

I'd like goat to analyze it before I vote though. He's a better player than I am.

[forbiddanlight]

This has to be the dumbest case in the universe I've ever seen. Can you please tell me how a crew's vig would arrest people? And also the fact I've been tracked as targeting you with my shot, and we had two arrests last night anyway, pretty much shows you are desperate for my lynch since you know I'm confirmed.

[forbiddanlight]

a) Assuming there is 3 scum left, how exactly do we have 4 power roles left? Clearly a power role is lieing.

I don't understand the logic here. My power role is crew. Goat's, I lean crew on. Fonz' and Cass are the ones that are confusing, and DD also has a power role. We have 5 power roles and one normal apparently.

[forbiddanlight]

And regarding FL's "4 to hammer, not 3", she missed the fact that Ennui showed that scum operate in pairs. If none of the people on Fonz's wagon nor Fonz himself were scum, then the two remaining pair of scum can just hop on when he was at -2 to end the day and win.

That's making a lot of assumption. The Fonz isn't scum, and that Cass isn't scum.

[forbiddanlight]

Exactly. The VIG DOES NOT EXIST. Which is why your night actions had no visible effects.

BULL FUCKING SHIT! I can read my role PM, and Goat clearly has seen that I exist, as well as the fact that I've been roleBLOCKED with a visible effect. You are CLEARLY not reading the thread, trying to tunnel in on me. I'm so confirmed right now it's pathetic. And you are just confirming yourself as scum. Hell, you didn't even read the post you responded to.

And also the fact I've been tracked as targeting you with my shot, and we had two arrests last night anyway

Exactly? Oh good, that shows I exist.

[forbiddanlight]

That's only assuming we have at least one pair of scum left, which was indicated by Ennui.

HOW DO YOU KNOW FONZ AND CASS AREN'T SCUM?

Didn't you just argue this?

[forbiddanlight]

I meant to say 4 claimed pro town power roles, and yes, I forgot about DD, which would be 5

Ok. Well, I know my role is town. So we have 4 power roles, obviously 2 of which are scum at least.

DD, we pretty much are sure is scum.

So that leaves at least one between Goat, Cass, and Fonz. And then, we have you. Either 2 power roles are lying and you are legit, or you are lying and only one PR is lying.

[forbiddanlight]

The whole point of my argument is that AT LEAST ONE of three: Fonz, Cass and Forbiddenlight, must be scum, seeing as if they are NOT, then the two remaining scum will hop on the bandwagon, lynch Fonz and win.

Alright. Which one? It isn't me. Fonz has acted less pro town than Cass, but Cass' role makes me very nervous, especially on mafia side. But flavorically...where does she fit?

[forbiddanlight]

I will bet that Goat + Forbidden is the scum pair.

We have seen from Ennui that the scum has a tracker. Since apparently there are 2 pairs of scum, the other scum team likely has the SAME ROLE.

It would work with the fact that Goat just confirmed Forbidden.

One of them must die today.

You'd lose that bet. Honestly, I don't think that the scum teams have the same roles. We'd need a mirror for my role too. Given I was roleblocked and my vig failed on llamafluff, why was there still an arrest?

[forbiddanlight]

Quick EBWOP: I meant DD's statement. And flavorically, I would think a Pimp works for the Don, not for the chief of police.

Exactly my thoughts. But the question is, how could one flavorically justify a cop RB?

[forbiddanlight]

I AM NOT ABLE TO BE KILLED BY ARREST.

+

I CANNOT BE NKed, PERIOD.

=

I CANNOT BE KILLED BY ARREST WHICH IS THE ONLY NK METHOD

Wrong, because I'll shoot your ass tonight and we'll see some dead scum. Goat has nothing to do with me, except he tracked me. Whether he's scum or town, I don't know. The only reason I lean town is because he could easily claim to have tracked me doing something else, and I know I'm town.

[forbiddanlight]

Assuming you and DD are a team, you role block FL, the other one kills fonz the doctor = game over..

Surely you see it..

That's if they are a team. I'm almost certain DD is Ennui's scum buddy. Meaning DD will arrest someone tonight. Now, if Cass is scum, who is she with that would allow the plan to result in a pig win?

[forbiddanlight]

I strongly believe the pairs have IDENTICAL ROLES. Makes sense balance wise.

You are not vig, you are the partner of the Scum Tracker, whose role we unfortunately do not know.

Honestly, you aren't gonna get a lynch on me. My role is too well confirmed. If you were trying to get a power role killed, you should have attacked one that was harder to verify.

[forbiddanlight]

Goat can attack me all she likes I don't give a damn because she is no vig. If she actually directs her scum NK at me, all the better for us because that would mean one less dead player.

Goat isn't attacking you. I am. Goat's also male. And no, it'll be one dead scum no matter what side I'm on. I am a vig though, and killing goat, probably the other most likely to be town player will end up in a cop victory anyway, which is what you want.

[forbiddanlight]

No, ONLY BY GOAT, which claimed tracker.

If I actually missed it, please point out where someone else confirmed you.

Also by Cass. She roleblocked me N1. I got a note saying my vig failed. I thought it was cause I killed an NK target. It was because I was blocked though. If she had roleblocked me N1, and I were scum killing llama, we would have only seen one kill. Added to the flavor thing, and I honestly can't think of good pig roleblock flavor, I am more inclined to trust her.

[forbiddanlight]

Lynch Fonz today, vig DD tonight, and work out the last scum tomorrow.

vote Fonz

[forbiddanlight]

Slipped a sedative in their drink and they sleep peacefully all night? I wouldn't get too hung up on flavor.

Yeah, I guess that's a good point. Honestly...it's intuition at this point. While I didn't like Cass at first, upon reread, my intuition dislikes Fonz. I'm willing to lynch him.

[forbiddanlight]

Uh...why isn't anyone responding yet (other than the scum)

TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK OF MY FL + GOAT THEORY PLEASE.

Cass went to sleep, Fonz will probably agree it's BS, and MAtin, dunno what he'll think. But, we'll see how it plays out. I am however the vig, whether you like it or not. Nice try.

[forbiddanlight]

Yes, the vig who never does anything with her powers cause she has none.

Both vig attempts failed, but at least I shattered your armor. You die tonight, whether you like it or not, scum.

[forbiddanlight]

I believe Fonz. Why do you not think that he is telling the truth?

Flavor mostly. And intuition. He's been relatively less pro town than Cass. Also, we have no proof of his claim. Why do you believe him?

This is irrelevant to town though as we will lose whether or not I am a one-shot immune or not. If I live tomorrow there won't be anyone to lynch you.

Oh, so now you aren't so sure about your bulletproof protection? I think this is a bit of a confession.

on Day 2 how you wanted to hammer Cubs but waited for someone else to do it.

Nice bullshit. I wanted to hammer cubs, but waited for a case on me since several people had expressed suspicion. They opted to case me D3, and I claimed before they cased. Because it was advantageous to show that I shot you and it failed. It's also pretty clear I was certain of the existence of a vig throughout all my posts. Obviously, I knew there was a vig because I was she. So, any other bullshit you want to present?

Kison was on your tail and he died.

So was Cass. She's not dead. Goat was to a degree as well. He's not dead.

You tried to get me lynched on Day 1 after the Ennui incident. Rushing a lynch like that is never good.

When you are lynching scum it is.

[forbiddanlight]

You yourself said that the case against me at that point was completely WIFOM. You were not sure at all.

Scum.

At the time yes. But, I also didn't care. And now, you are only proving my expectations. Like it or not, you've been scummy and out for yourself this entire game. I'd lynch you today if I didn't think it'd make us lose because the other cop group moves in.

[forbiddanlight]

Based on what? Oh yes, FL's claim, which is confirmed by you. But what else? Surely if I am scum I would have slipped elsewhere. And if FL's claim is true, that means Fonz is my scum buddy, because his flavour goes against FL's as well. Where's Ennui's partner then? Cass? Matin?

I'm twice confirmed. With 3 scum, one opposing the other two, There is NO FUCKING WAY I'D GET TWO PEOPLE VERIFYING MY ACTIONS! GIVE IT UP AND SCUM HUNT IF YOU AREN'T SCUM.

I'm done debating this, do what you will. Also,

unvote The Fonz

. You have a point Goat. Cass' recent actions are bad.

[forbiddanlight]

Who's the second one that verified your action? Surely you're not begging the question by basing the second source on your assumption that I am scum?

WE'VE ONLY SAID IT A MILLION TIMES! I WAS ROLEBLOCKED N1 BY CASS! MY VIG ON LLAMA FAILED BECAUSE CASS RB'D ME! AND THEN GOAT TRACKED ME N2! Am I really buddies with both of them? I could almost see a Cass/ forbiddan pairing, but then you look at N2 Goat tracking me. Both claims are impossible if I'm not the vig!

[forbiddanlight]

Ok, the dichotomy lies between both of your previous plays and both of your current plays. You weren't really pro or anti town to me in my reread of you, where as Cass was really pro town in my opinion. Today, that's reversed, except she's been more anti town and you've been more pro town. I'm confused, and trying to take an action so I don't have to think anymore. It's stupid play and I need to stop and step back. To be honest, Cass starting to play anti town today should be a really strong indicator she's going for the kill and hoping her past play backs her up. You starting to be more clearly pro town implies that under pressure things start really getting in gear for you. I'm not sure what to conclude from this, but put like that, I actually should have leaned Cass in the first place. I did unvote you though after thinking on it.

Also, glad you see that Darkdude is full of shit. Thanks for not trying to turn a case on me.

[forbiddanlight]

actually, I've just realised that for matin to be telling the truth, it would have to be three PR lying.

Triple post ftw.

Yeah. At least 2 PR are lying. We know one of the two. We also have one for the most part confirmed. That leaves 3 PR to lynch from, with anywhere from a 33 to 66% chance of finding scum.

[forbiddanlight]

Why are you ruling out lynching matin?

We lose if we lynch him. Even if he's scum, both you and Cass have roles, possibly on the scum side that win the game by countering my kill.

Btw, the frantic attempts of DD to tie himself to me should be a fairly good indicator that I am not his partner (WIFOM possibilities acknowledged).

Maybe maybe not. Darkdude is in a panic. you aren't.

Wait, so you all believe that I am scum now? Because I was hoping to see what Matin was going to say.

You will. You aren't going to be lynched today. I shoot you tonight. Today, the lynch is essentially between Fonz and Cass, the two most threatening roles to a town win.

Wow, semantics. It that the extent of your case on me?

My use of the word "a" was simply a statement of fact not meant to imply #'s but more to imply that we can't just assume all un counter claimed claimed power roles are being truthful since some of them are clearly lieing..

So far, not sure what you are. Not sure I care. We'll figure it out eventually.

[forbiddanlight]

Again, if cass is scum, she only roleblocks you in the scenario DD is her partner.

How a doctor can threaten a town win, i have no idea...

Scum doctor, for some reason protects DD.

Even if Fonz's flavour does not oppose but rather confirms FL, I remain suspicious. All she's been doing is trying to get different people lynched for bad reasons.

Even if someone is confirmed pro town, does not mean their play will benefit the town. I'm running out of steam. My play is becoming more erratic. I'm trying to rely on the cooler heads a bit more so I don't fuck us all over. But I don't know which cooler head to trust, and I lean goat.

Not true: if Cass is scum AND her partner is dead (ie Matin or Ennui) then she can't both kill and roleblock, nor actually would she want to (wanting DD dead herself).

She's urging us to kill Matin. If she's scum, why would she do this?

[forbiddanlight]

She's urging us to kill Matin. If she's scum, why would she do this?

Nevermind. If she's Ennui's partner (which I lean DD on), then it's possible.

[forbiddanlight]

If DD is ennui's partner, we just have to lynch scum of any stripe then...

We still are assuming that scum can't act and kill at the same time. Do you want to chance Matin? I'm willing to, but there's a lot of chance taking there.

[forbiddanlight]

I need to sleep on it.

I do kinda find it funny that you're assuming everyone's telling the truth about their roles, even though half of them are scum... there is no more reason to think I'm a scum doctor than matin or Goat. Scum have this annoying tendency to lie.

That's a good point. The reason for this is we know the scum have roles, at least some of them. So by claiming a role, their safest claim is what their role actually is while taking out any pig tells.

[forbiddanlight]

Given what Ennui said though, isn't DD more likely to be Ennui's buddy? We are almost certain Matin is scum, we are certain DD is scum, why do we have to coinflip on Cass/Fonz?

[forbiddanlight]

Eh, I'll vote Cass if you'll vote Cass, and if we are wrong we share the blame for damning the crew.

[forbiddanlight]

hahaha. No pressure right?

I'm not going to make any hasty decisions quite yet.

Whatever works. I've just kinda reached the "I'm tired" point in a game. I can't think of much else to do, and am ready to end it if at all possible. But I still want to win.

[forbiddanlight]

Think about it. If the scum all have bulletproof vests, and the town doesn't, then a vig is actually a NEGATIVE for the town: because it takes her two goes to kill off scum, whilst town dies instantly. Add in two scumkills, that's three a night. There's potential there for town to lose its majority by the start of day two.

This is an assumption that I think will prove incorrect. I think that only one scum group was bulletproof, and the other group had something crazy in compensation. I'm still trying to work out if it's yours or Cass' role. I was willing to vote Cass last night, but once again, I've been convinced off her by her arguments. However, Fonz brings up a possiblity that causes me to want to look at goat. I was thinking last night of the flavor argument, and I have to look at a couple things to see how supported Goat it. I doubt I'll turn on him though, since essentially he could have lied about tracking me, or said he tracked me to one of the NK targets, and thusly gotten a townie killed, at least screwing the game for town, and likely for the other mafia. That's the main reason I have to believe Goat is town.

[forbiddanlight]

Look FL. He claimed an investigation role that added no new information, and helped him to buddy up to you. If he claims something incriminating, it's 50-50 he gets lynched. It makes perfect sense for mafia to do that. It's not a towntell at all.

Hmm, I suppose not...but there's also the fact I think he was using the info in his role PM to get us to realize Ennui was scum. So, we can be pretty sure that he's not Ennui's buddy. So, he's either on the two scum team or pro town...now which is it, I wonder.

[forbiddanlight]

So, the coin flip becomes rolling a 3 sided die. To be honest, I agree that a pig doc given at least one teams BPVs seems overpowered. Hmm...what to do?

[forbiddanlight]

OGM, but i can totally see Cicero making a town without any investigative roles.

Actually, raider was the crew investigator or something.

The huge question here is, do we believe Cass is scum WITH DD. If we believe that, then she is the lynch; if not, then Goat or Matin is... i'd lean matin. He seems to be making the least effort of anyone to scumhunt.

If Cass is scum, she has to be the kill. Her roleblock effectively ruins my shot making it impossible for us to get that extra kill we need.

If Cass and me are both town, we can actually afford to mislynch... but then, if cass and me are both town, we won't mislynch if we lynch anyone else!

Basically.

[forbiddanlight]

Assuming all that for a minute, who do you think we should lynch?

Assuming both you and Fonz are town, the best lynch is Matin. DD I'm almost certain is a lone scum. And, it'll become obvious if we are wrong about you or Fonz when town loses because my kill gets screwed up.


There is one other out that requires us to trust Cass once again. We lynch DD today. I do NOT shoot anyone tonight. Cass roleblocks Matin, goat, or fonz, and fonz protects me or cass (the variables are needed so the scum have to guess). We SHOULD wake up with 5 people, and 2 scum, where we kill Matin. Then we end up in an F3 situation, where I once again forgo my kill unless we are CERTAIN someone is scum that day. So, depending on how trusting you are, this should work.

[forbiddanlight]

ForbiddenLight did NOT attack me last night, because Cicero took away my NK immunity on Night 2 as a penalty for my absence (I had begged him to not have me replaced while my computer was unusable due to virus). If FL is telling the truth, I would be dead by now.

Bullshit. Mod wouldn't break the game like that, especially when I know I shot you. The only way this is true is if Cass roleblocked me twice...or Fonz guarded you.

I will not stand for any lynch other than Goat's. If someone else gets lynched I shall NK Fonz and you will lose.

No we won't. See my latest post. We lynch you, that takes care of one scum pair, and we go from there. Requires trusting Cass though. I'm not ready to do that.

There is no way for me to win any more, so I just want to get revenge on FL for the bullshit I had to put up with Razz

This is what causes me to almost believe you. But you aren't panicked this time. You are trying to WIFOM us here.

I am 100% sure Goat and FL are the remaining scum pair.

I am 100% sure you are leading us to lose. You want a town loss.

Moving along, this also makes a Fonz lynch viable. Whatcha gonna do then, huh Darky?

[forbiddanlight]

And why wouldn't Cass role block you?

Oops..

This too. Playing within his assumptions, Cass could RB him easily.

[forbiddanlight]

I can, however, totally see cicero doing that...

Maybe so. But I know for a fact he didn't because my shot failed. Unless Cass roleblocked me. Now, this begs the question, if I was roleblocked N2, would Goat have seen me using my vig power on DD? Because if she did RB me as DD's partner, this was the perfect set up for his claim, and Cass needs to die.

[forbiddanlight]

Yes, but you 'know' one thing for a fact, and he 'knows' another. The two are incompatible.

I'm also not scum. He's admitted himself to be scum in a WIFOM game. I'm doubly backed up by 2 roles. If they think I'm scum and are covering for me, I kinda boggle at that idea because there isn't a 3 scum team or we've lost. Since my action N1 is confirmed by Cass (I said my vig failed before she even mentioned being a role blocker), and my N2 action is confirmed by Goat, it should be very obvious he's lying.

[forbiddanlight]

FL is only riding on Goat's confirmation, which cannot be trusted since they are scum buddies. I don't see what's so difficult to understand about that.

Do you ever READ my posts!? I AM CONFIRMED BY CASS AND GOAT! ARE YOU GOING TO TELL ME ALL OF US ARE SCUM TOGETHER!?

I will personally let FL and Goat win if you manage to let them snatch victory from the jaws of defeat, because they deserve it.

If Goat's town, that's fine by me. Town should get this victory, I think.

If you lynch Matin you lose. In fact, unless you lynch either FL or Goat, you will lose unless you let me make use of my NK for cross killing. And don't expect that because I TOLD you not to lynch Matin.

I'm not certain on this, actually. Especially the Matin part. Wonder if in the end we have a DD Matin pairing here. Though I favor DD/Cass if you are playing with WIFOM so much.

[forbiddanlight]

Oh yes, so to counter my argument, you allow the possibility that I am still town?

Nope. I'm sold you are scum. The WIFOM is everything else you said. Thanks for the strawman.

[forbiddanlight]

You are not scum hunting. You are just shooting down anyone opposing you to survive.

Nah, I'm scum hunting. We found you right (before you admitted to it)? The trick is finding the other two scum and figuring out which is the right lynch. And of COURSE I'm trying to survive. If I die, a townie, I lose, because town loses. Then you lose, because the cops on the other side will kill you (assuming you really are Ennui's partner), and it's no good for anyone.

[forbiddanlight]

No, Cass blocked you and nothing happened because you had no vig kill anyways.

Hmmph, one problem. I claimed a vig kill, and it failed. She claimed to have blocked me, which would explain the fail. How does this work again? I didn't even know there was a roleblocker til she claimed, AFTER I had claimed vig and enumerated my attempts. So, really, if I'm scum, who am I with? Both support my claim pretty damn well.

[forbiddanlight]

I know for a fact that FL is lying, and I am 100% sure the other scum pair has a Tracker, which Goat claimed. Coincidentally, he also confirmed FL....

As did Cass. The only person lying in this case that I know for a fact, is you.

Actually, thinking on it, Fonz could have protected you last night and you could be his buddy. Really, no one is cleared except for me (because I stand by a double confirmation being the best you'll get)

[forbiddanlight]

No, you knew I was scum because you are the GF and you could see how I, who have the same abilities as yourself, could pull off the bulletproof claim.

I knew you were scum because we could read Ennui's fucking role PM, as well as the fact my shot failed on you. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt on the cicero nerfing you thing, though I don't see him doing that. You really seem bent on killing me though...I really doubt you are En's partner with that attitude. You are trying for a townie lynch so you can find the lone actor tonight and win tomorrow.

[forbiddanlight]

Reply with quote
@Forbiddan: eh, it does rather nicely explain your whole odd spiel about 'arrests coming before kills'. Which you only dropped after you sniffed out I might have blocked you.
It was pure luck for you that I blocked you that night, and bad luck for me that you weren't the one performing the arrest.

Hell, I had no thoughts of a roleblocker til you claimed. I honestly thought it was arrests first. Wouldn't you draw the same conclusion if you didn't think there was a roleblocker?

[forbiddanlight]

If we believe DD, that would make Goat the Godfather and FL the tracker.

WHY THE FUCK WOULD WE BELIEVE SCUM!? I still could see Goat as scum, but he's unaffiliated with me.

And you might try getting on my good side for once. You do know that I play a significant role in both scum and town victory now.

The whole reason that I'm helping town is that my fucking partner was an asshole, and now I have to put up with some stupid logic that makes no sense which you repeat over and over again.

Why do I care about being on scum's good side? I shoot your ass tonight,after we find scum to lynch today. It'll leave us with 1 scum and good odds of victory. You have NOTHING to do with a town victory except dying.

[forbiddanlight]

No, you said Cicero said that. If you got blocked, you would have said "Cicero said my attack was blocked". Instead you said "Cicero said my attack failed because arrest comes before kills".

Ah, but the only part of that in my results PM was Your vig fails. I assumed the rest. And seriously, what the hell do you know about how cicero tells you you got roleblocked? Both my vigs have come back with messages saying my vig failed. I find it interesting that you seem to think he'd say something different if one was blocked.

[forbiddanlight]

If goat is scum it would confirm you as his partner as he tried to confirm you town.

So did Cass.

[forbiddanlight]

You're scum alright. You're throwing crazy theories everywhere. Like I said, you're not scum hunting, you're just trying to fend off everyone else's blows against you. A town would NOT do that by acknowledging contradicting theories.

What the hell is that suppoesd to mean? Why would I acknowledge a completely WRONG contradictory theory? You are scum attempting to get a townie killed. One of the most confirmed townies, if anyone can really be confirmed. I'm almost certain you aren't En's partner now. Which took a lot, to be honest. You have a buddy ready to tear this game up after I fall and am revealed as Crew vig, should the others be dumb enough to listen to you.

[forbiddanlight]

Logic fail.

How so? YOu seem to have spent most of this day ignoring me being roleblocked. NOW you address it claiming that I should have gotten a different blocking message?

[forbiddanlight]

Whatever, I wash my hands. We can kill goat, I'll shoot scum boy here, because I DO have bullets, and we better hope when the smoke clears there is only one scum left.

You acknowledged that I may have a partner, despite it being clearly established that I am NOT getting lynched today because everyone knows I'm Ennui's partner. If you think I am scum but not Ennui's partner, then why not lynch me instead of vigging me?

Too much risk. That's the trouble with WIFOM. I personally think you are lying through your teeth about Ennui.

You acknowledged that Goat may be scum, even though there is no other evidence other than my word. If you did not believe me, you wouldn't think Goat is scum.

There is other evidence, but it's all circumstantial. Seriously, before you said ANYTHING we were discussing the possiblity that Goat was scum.

You keep twisting your story about your confirmation. You are not confirmed except by your scum buddy.

No, I've pretty constantly said Goat tracked me N2, Cass RB'd me N1. I haven't deviated from that at all. I also never said that cicero said the arrests occured first, I just made that my conjecture.

No. If I got a PM 'vig failed', i would assume a block or perhaps a redirect to a bulletproof. If i though it was due to the arrest, I would pm the mod immediately to confirm.

I didn't think he could tell me that, and I also tend to run with my own conclusions. My fault.

@Fonz, Matin: How do you feel about lynching Goat then? We can maybe tell FL to vig DD tonight to confirm herself? Eh, I just don't know anymore...

This is fine by me. I was gonna shoot the oinking liar out of spite anyway.

[forbiddanlight]

Now, for the sake of logic, please do not bring up the point about Cass confirming you now that she herself has denied it.

She hasn't though. Way to lie...again. She's merely stated it's possible that if I'm in a scum group, my partner arrested llama and I am just claiming vig on that target despite her RBing me. Or something like that. I really don't know, I just know what I did, and that's shoot llama N1, and shoot you N2.

Just because you got blocked and nothing happened does not mean you actually had a action. Because if that were the case every blocker would go "Hey I found SK" when they block a vanilla.

No, but given the supporting factor of goat's confirm (whether you think he's scum or not), it's still evidence in my favor.

Goat/FL will probably attempt to kill me anyways, which is why I asked Fonz for protection so that I can live to do more cross killing.

You don't need to live, scum. And of course I'm going to shoot you, you are scum. The only problem is, if goat's town, you've effectively caused a town loss anyway, so mission accomplished for piggy here.

"I am now more of a vig than FL ever was."

Not really. You die tonight, and if Cass is town, she needs to block you.

[forbiddanlight]

@Forbiddan: Goat can't both be almost-confirmed-townie-confirming-you and could-very-well-be-scum. You have to pick one. The flip-flopping looks pretty scummy.

He's no longer almost confirmed townie in my eyes. Still, as Fonz was discussing earlier, it was better to support my claim from both a scum and town standpoint. He could very well be scum now, and I'm sticking to it.

[forbiddanlight]

Did you notice that you've been saying "fine by me" a lot today?

Because
I
Fucking
Don't
Care
Any
Fucking
More!
I want scum dead today, I want to SHOOT scum tonight, and I want the fucking town to win. Whatever you all freaking decide works is FINE
BY
ME!

[forbiddanlight]

You better care, because if you're really vig then lynching the wrong person would cause you to lose.

Because we stand an even chance of hitting scum. Right now, we've gotten to coinflip logic. I'd rather lynch you, but I'm afraid we'd lose then because we couldn't stop the NK, no matter who I shoot.

...Maybe because I'll NK you? But you shouldn't worry too much; you still have the bulletproof vest.

Come off it, if I get arrested, I die. I only have a gun, and I hope like hell I take anyone arresting me down with me.

[forbiddanlight]

And you want Cass to block me. Now why would you do that if you're all keeping me alive just so I could NK and crosskill?

Because if you aren't Ennui's partner, you kill town and basically make us lose.

[forbiddanlight]

I expect FL to vig DD tonight. I won't say who I'll block, Fonz shouldn't say who he protects.

Best call I've seen all day.

HOPE LIKE HELL THIS IS RIGHT!

vote:Goatrevolt

[forbiddanlight]

If I'm not Ennui's partner, you all stand no chance keeping me alive, unless you find my partner who doesn't exist.

There is a chance, actually. If Goat is the lone actor, you and your partner get a kill, Cass roleblocks one, hope it's the right one, Fonz protects someone, hope he protects well, and you die tonight cause I vig your ass. Course, if Cass is your partner we are screwed. But otherwise, I think we end up with one scum when the smoke clears provided Goat is scum.

[forbiddanlight]

You believe FL is vig then? How would that work seeing it's my word against hers and Goat's, whom you think is scum?

Because you are scum too. No matter what you say, I still come out the cleanest given the interaction of the roles. If my vig fails, we've lost anyway. If my vig succeeds, it's proof. It's just we were already speculating goat could be scum, and had the most likely scum role if they are symettric teams, so, you coming in calling for his lynch fit in with our plans.

[forbiddanlight]

FL will probably kill me with her scum shot tonight though. That's why once again I ask for Fonz's protection because I want to finish off the most annoying scum I've ever seen.

Fonz, you'd be an idiot to do this. You'd be selling the game to Darkdude, since this is the only way he can win. Let me vig him.

[forbiddanlight]

You don't seem to get the fact that whether your vig succeeds or not it will be redundant if town is at a loss at that point. That is why there is no use of waiting for that proof. We need to decide right now who is telling the truth. If we wait for proof it means we believe you, because if you're lying then we would have already lost by the time we have proof that you are no vig.

Well, you SHOULD believe me. I'm the vig.

But, anyway, honestly, I'd be fine with lynching you, not shooting tonight, and trusting Cass to roleblock scum. Also, since you wanted a Goat lynch, why aren't you voting him?

[forbiddanlight]

I'm just asking him a favour so that I can finish off your fucking annoying ass with my own hands.

Only annoying because I'm the reason you are going to completely lose.

[forbiddanlight]

Actually...just worked it through, you are right, you can't win. Right now you are just trying to seal a town loss by getting me out of the picture.

[forbiddanlight]

Wow, I am simply amazed at your air-tight logic.

Well of course it is. I'm the vig. Nothing else should matter, because, I have a gun. All you have is a tattered BPV and handcuffs. Even if you arrest me, and find out for sure I'm the vig, my shot will pierce your heart.

[forbiddanlight]

DD, what do you mean 'we'?? You just confessed to being scum.

Scumslip maybe? I wonder if I was right about the WIFOM point. I'd be willing to lynch Darkdude and try my luck trusting you Cass. I know earlier I said I didn't, but right now, I just kinda feel like taking a chance.

[forbiddanlight]

There is one other out that requires us to trust Cass once again. We lynch DD today. I do NOT shoot anyone tonight. Cass roleblocks Matin, goat, or fonz, and fonz protects me or cass (the variables are needed so the scum have to guess). We SHOULD wake up with 5 people, and 2 scum, where we kill Matin. Then we end up in an F3 situation, where I once again forgo my kill unless we are CERTAIN someone is scum that day. So, depending on how trusting you are, this should work.

The plan we can take a chance on.

Lynch DD
I don't shoot tonight,
Cass roleblocks someone she thinks is scum (picking me loses the game, because I'm not even using my role)
Fonz protects someone (dunno who)
Should be F5 if everything goes well
lynch scum (I said Matin earlier but that was subject to change)
I forgo my kill again, by now it should be clear how to block and doc if both of you are still alive
F3 finish should be town victory if we keep our wits about ourselves.

[forbiddanlight]

L-1. Hope we aren't being fucking stupid. I'm beginning to have second thoughts and prefer my plan.

I really like how FL jumps all over the place.

I usually end up like this. It's just an odd bad play habit of mine. I'm scared of being wrong.

[forbiddanlight]

I'm not going to vote DD. I do believe that he's Ennui's buddy, and we need one from the other team. Also, one who still has a vest. Anything else means gambling our lives.

Well, the way my plan works it actually presupposes that. But anything we do is a gamble. It doesn't rely on me being the vig. I suppose you have to trust I'm not scum, but we also have to trust you aren't scum. If we kill DD, and he IS En's partner, we've stopped one kill. The trick is you have to choose right when you roleblock, and Fonz furthermore has to protect right as security. If the kill does go through, we end up 2-2, and lose. That's the other chance. After that, game is cake. I know it has flaws, but I feel REALLY uncomfortable trusting a scum's word, especially when he's trying like hell to get me killed (because I know I'm townie, even if no one else thinks so).

[forbiddanlight]

Of course you do.

I don't trust scum, no matter what they say. I feel better about my plan, but I'm willing to kill goat. My vote says that.

[forbiddanlight]

Biggest scum tell ever....if that matters at this stage.

Oh? How so?

[forbiddanlight]

imo, the Doctor role and Fonz make total sense with two killing groups, so he should probably be the only untouchable one.

Not even I, huh? Well, whatever works.

Honestly, I'm conflicted as hell. I really want to take this out, because even though I say I'm willing to trust Cass, I still have alarm bells going off in my head about her that I can't explain. But if I take this out, everyone will jump on me for flipping yet again, especially in contradiction to what I just said. But...I'm not sure Goat is the play, and I really shouldn't trust scum. But, the idea came from you Matin...someone for awhile I thought was scum. But given what you just did, you are either buddies with goat, or town. You could have won the game as scum just now. Sooo...I'm inclined to trust you more.

SCREW IT! I'm

Unvote, vote(ing) Cass

, and I'll STAY there til the game ends for better or for worse. I'm done flipping around and ignoring my intuition.

[forbiddanlight]

If you think me and Cass are buddies, why not lynch me then? And who would be Ennui's partner?

Idiot, if we lynch you, Cass just roleblocks for the win.

ROFL

No more falling for your tricks, DD. I'm done with being wishy washy. I'm on Cass, and on Cass I stay. I DARE you and her to vote me now. Cmon, give it a try!

[forbiddanlight]

You don't believe my word that Goat and FL are the scum pair?

Why the FUCK would we believe scum's word? You've admitted to being scum, and Matin actually makes the most sense to me through action and word.

[forbiddanlight]

.

And why would she "confirm" you if she were scum?

Why confirm me? It makes her look better, duh. I looked pro town at the beginning of the day. Everyone has been buddying up in some way to me except you, and who cares, you are scum.

If she were scum, I doubt that her claim would be true.

I don't. Scum roleblocker makes a lot of sense

And Fonz pointed out earlier, assuming everyone is telling the truth when claiming is certainly pretty stupid for a town player.

Not the full truth, but enough of it is probably true since that's the safest claim.

[forbiddanlight]

If he's Ennui's partner, we eliminate a killing team and have power roles to block night kills and can lynch FL or Goat tomorrow.

Why me or goat? Just because he's scum with no way out doesn't mean he doesn't have the town's best interests at heart. If we lynch DD today, and he is En's partner, then you have to choose whether we chance me shooting someone or not. And then we have to figure out how the night actions will play out to determine who is scum. It ends up being my plan except making me look bad.

[forbiddanlight]

You have a 50% chance of winning that way.

A little less than that, actually. I'm town. I don't know if goat is. It's really a 25% chance. Lynching me is auto lose. Lynching goat is 50/50 scum/town. If I vig, I think we almost certainly lose, but I can't be sure of that. It would confirm me though if my shot went through, which it should if no one fucks with me.

[forbiddanlight]

I'm pretty sure that I, being the one who has no practical chance at victory, would have a much better value with words than you, who already displayed lots of flip flopping scum behaviour.

Nah, kingmaker is a viable choice. You have no chance of victory, but since you ARE aligned against town, you can still get second so to speak by fucking over the town hard. Fucking over the other cop team lacks this guarantee. I really think killing Cass is the best bet, and let the chips fall as they will. I'll kill Dark, he'll either kill me or fonz (I'd advise fonz to guard himself if he can, and whether you can or not, claim that you can), and the other scum group...well, we chance that. If we have 2 scum it'll be F3 with any luck and we'll win. Because I'll be confirmed through my shot.

[forbiddanlight]

Useless. We both know that if we let you live tomorrow it would prove that you're scum, but if we hit town today town will not have majority to vote you off.

Haha, what if you let me live tomorrow and there's a vig kill to show for it? The problem is, it has to be successful. If my shot fails due to bulletproof, we are fucked. And if my shot succeeds on town, we are fucked. Quite frankly, I actually gotta say that my plan only works if people are willing to trust me. They aren't, so lynching DD is a bad move since it leads to my death tomorrow. I know I'm a townie and that makes us lose.

[forbiddanlight]

yes..I was working under the assumption that if DD is being honest about being Ennui's partner, he's likely being honest about everything. He's claiming cicero took away his NK immunity which if true, would indict you, and Fonz backed it up as possible (i wouldn't imagine it frankly)

It's WIFOM. Mix truth with lies, and watch the town self destruct under your advice. I've been in a scum group with cicero before. In a game called Spies 5. Goat was also in it and can vouch for it. When you are scum in that extensive game (The whole forum is just that game, and you have alternate AIM accounts to talk to the other players on), you tend to get a bit of a measure for the attitude of your team mates. Cicero wouldn't do what DD is claiming. I honestly don't believe he would.

[forbiddanlight]

Actually, I feel much more satisfied screwing you over cause you're so damn annoying.

Which is admitting to screw town over. SEriously, if you want to realize what's annoying, it's having to defend CONFIRMED FUCKING SCUM ACCUSATIONS THAT THE FUCKING TOWN IS DUMB ENOUGH TO ACTUALLY BELIEVE JUST BECAUSE THE GUY IS POSSIBLY HONEST ABOUT ONE FACTOR. GOD this is such a clusterfuck.