Invitational 10: 2005-2006. Game over! before 624
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Patrick Rantbuddy
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Has this ever deterred you from placing an initial vote in the past?Ether wrote:Checking in. I don't find anyone scummy yet.
Not really a strategy, it just seems appealing given our last encounter. Why do you think that it would, "probably gain traction"?MBL wrote:Patrick suggests a bold strategy out of the gate, and one he knows will probably gain traction. I'd be interested to hear his specific motivations.
Why not?MBL wrote:I'd probably vote for Sarc now, but I don't want a competing wagon... yet.Primpod 11:13 pm
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I've read bluesoul's Post 28 a few times and have come to the conclusion that I don't mind it. I think it's clear his use of the word "three" was referencing the non-posters and not a likely number of mafia, and the assumption that MBL has scumbuddies did only strike me as within the context of DGB's assumption in the last post. One thing I don't like is that I don't pick up much curiosity from him, despite the relatively high number of posts he's made and the relative spotlight he's been under. Elvis gives me mildly bad vibes, not sure why.
I don't really see any particular Sarcastro/bluesoul connection.
Early town vibes from Ether and MBL for what seem like genuine attempts to kick off the game.Unvote.
Clarify this please. If that kind of statement is dropped all the time, why would that make it a legitimate reason for a vote?OGML wrote:I too noticed Ether calling out one "where are your scumbuddies" comments and leaving out others. I also think that voting someone on the basis of making a statement of that nature is legitimate, as statements like those get dropped all the time. The evidence is here in this thread, where its happened three times already in the first two pages.
MBL, I too would like to know what you like(d) about OGML. Why do you feel that OMGL's vote for Sarcastro was an appropriate vote, when all Sarcastro had done was cast an apparently arbitrary vote for Ether? Did you see something scummy in that first post?Primpod 11:13 pm
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Meh. When I read the post, I tried to tweak my brain and imagine I'm someone else, and decide whether that post seems like it could have been written naturally. I think it probably was. At a pinch, I could see it as trying to see if anyone would bite and go after DGB, but it's minor in my opinion. I don't understand what you mean by "for what he himself evidently didn't believe to be damage". Didn't he spend a few posts explaining why heEther (who attributed a quote of mine to bluesoul) wrote:Meh. Combined with the disclaimer at the end of 36, it feels like an opportunistic way to attack DGB for doing what he himself evidently didn't believe to be damage. (No, this wasn't my original angle. Something bothers me about that post, dammit.)didthink her post had done some damage?
I'd like to hear what specifically DGB dislikes about MBL.Primpod 11:13 pm
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I thought I'd already explained that I didn't have any strategy in voting MBL, I just did it because of last time we played together (the game was Face to Face Mafia).elvis_knits wrote:Patrick... MBL thinks you had ulterior motives to starting bandwagon on him. You have never addressed these concerns. Explain.
Vote: elvis_knitsPrimpod 11:13 pm
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I can only see myself putting any great emphasis on that once, and that was because I'd found it helpful. Basically, I felt like one or two people were overthinking his comment and analysing the thought process heavily, whereas I think he likely said it casually.chamber wrote:I assume the implication of this question is that pj is also explaining himself, but its not the act of explaining but the manner in which you did that I found scummy. You over emphasize the way you got to your conclusions instead of the conclusions themselves.
You haven't done much scumhunting. At the time, you'd made no comments about anyone's alignment, and your question to me seemed to ignore the meat of the game in favour of something irrelevant, which you twice said was irrelevant before. (MBL's last comment about my vote had a smiley face at the end, and didn't seem like a serious line of enquiry to me). (Also, there's no grudge).elvis_knits wrote:As for 15, at the time I didn't think any explanation was possible or pertenent for Patrick's vote. MBL has said repeatedly that he thinks Patrick had other motivations, and I don't think he was merely talking about some grudge from another game, so that's why I asked in 68 -- to see if there actually was something.
DGB doesn't really seem suspicious to me. I've always seen her as being lovey-dovey regardless of alignment.Primpod 11:13 pm
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After MBL's first analysis post, Ether asked you to comment on it. You've also not commented on bluesoul's wagon/alignment, which seems like a notable event in the game. Chamber's accusation against me, the suggestion of a bluesoul/Sarcastro link and the suggestion that Ether voted bluesoul whilst ignoring others who did the same as him all spring to mind as possible things to talk about. Any of those seem more relevant than what you highlighted.Primpod 11:13 pm
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I suppose it wasn't that clear. Chamber accused me of overemphasising my thought process, and I assume he's referring to my Post 60, where I talk about how I tried to read bluesoul. My response to chamber in Post 87 explains why I was emphasising how I reached my conclusion. (I still think bluesoul's comment is being overanalysed, and I find his assertion that he was being hypothetical to be believable).PJ wrote:2.) I'm just plain not understanding Patrick's response to chamber in Post 87. I've read it about five times. I've deleted about three sets of questions about this, so I think I'll just ask for you to reword this response, please.
DGB: I don't get the timing of your bluesoul vote. The bit you quoted and called kwayzeee was something bluesoul had said more than once already, and he was only repeating it as part of defending himself. Why the hypereaction only now?
bluesoul: How could MBL have slipped up and revealed inside information that there are 30% scum in the game, when that percentage is impossible? You ignored that when responding to him, but that seems to be the basis for your vote.Primpod 11:13 pm
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"Mediocre going on decent" made me laugh, if only because those two assessments aren't particularly close to each other. And I disagree with your assessment of my posts, I think I'm contributing just fine. Is there something specifically you want my opinion on? Also, don't presume to know my level of effort; I've thought alot about this game. For the record, my question to DGB in my last post was to open up another potential line of discussion; I think her vote for you looks overhyped/fake, especially considering the delay I pointed out.bluesoul wrote:Patrick's effort so far has been mediocre going on decent. He did open a line of discussion with e_k that would've otherwise gone more-or-less unnoticed. Other than that there hasn't been a tremendous amount of substance to his posts. It's mostly questions without contributions. There's been a fair amount of that on MS lately so maybe he doesn't realize he's doing it, but I'd like to see him be a little bit more open in discussion, as it helps the town get information about you as well as the person you're questioning.
Anyway, this percentages argument has been kind of making my eyes glaze over. MBL's 30% with the 20/10% split thing looks kind of arbitrary to me, but I don't see it as particularly scummy because I know some players like using percentages. I've certainly seen MBL do it, and IH's and PJ's comments on this look sketchy to me too. Bluesoul doesn't come off as scummy to me, my only real issue with him was that he wasn't scumhunting earlier, but that seems to have changed. I'm a bit suspicious of PJ because he doesn't remind me of the usual protown PJ that I've always played with, but that's mostly gut right now.Primpod 11:13 pm
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I'm not understanding what IH thinks is strange about the two things he quoted at the top of this page. Some kind of elaboration would be useful there. I don't really agree with the case against MBL; my take on the quote snipping is much the same as PJ's, and I still think his first post looks protown if anything.
Why disregard it? Given what you've said about chamber's playstyle, how do you plan on discerning his alignment? This seems like an odd kind of threat to make.bluesoul wrote:Pretty much, yeah. I'd like to hear an explanation too, though, or I'm gonna go ahead and disregard his vote.
I should reread this at the weekend when I've got more time, and hopefully get a clearer picture in my mind of my top suspects.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Bluesoul, please answer my questions from Post 170. DGB, please answer my question from Post 122.
He hasn't particularly stood out to me. He feels a bit like he's picking at the edges of the game, because what he's been pressing hasn't struck me as very important, though I'll wait for what he's got to say about this conspiracy theory. I'll be reviewing more closely when I get that reread in this weekend, but at the moment there's several people that I'm more suspicious of.Ether wrote:Sarc and Patrick, please advise me on Elvis and OGML, respectively.
Can you better explain what you find to be scummy about PJ's question to you/OGML's copying the question?
OGML: Why have I been raising your hackles a bit this game?Primpod 11:13 pm
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Reread the game. Elvis, DGB and PJ all look scummy too me, with some weaker bad vibes from IH.
PJ isn't looking for scum nearly as much as he usually does. I won't go on at length trying to explain this since he's actually admitted it; his last post is a possible explanation for why that's happening, and I do agree with both the reads he gave there.
Why do you feel that this was a weak claim? You've said that your reason for voting DBG was no good, so why is it strange that she doesn't like it? Why is it strange that she dislikes elvis just parrotting your reason? In fact, if this vote was made for reactions, what useful reactions have you gotten from it? Often, a vote like that is made to see who'll follow it, elvis did that, and you didn't mention it at all.PJ wrote:I think she went from one weak claim (PJ + EK scummy)
DGB:
Yes, I definitely thought bluesoul was defending himself in frustration about the fact that people weren't seeing his comment as hypothetical. I think it's obvious that he wasn't hanging onto the idea like a pitbull on a ham bone and pushing it endlessly, since he'd already stated some time before that he'd decided it wasn't a big issue and that it "may yet work out as PJ noted". The bit that you voted him for looked like a defence of a previous position and not a further push. Your later justifications (with links) look very vague as well -- it's like you're trying to throw suspicion on him without explaining any of it at all, and finding his post 28 helpful (which is the one that started alot of the suspicion of him) doesn't seem consistent with your future suspicion of him.DGB wrote:I'm not sure I can recall correctly how my brain worked on that day. It's one thing to mention the possibility, to get a discussion started, but to hang on to this twee, reaching idea like a pitbull on a ham bone and going on and on about it endlessly was just too much to be town behavior. I didn't view it as defending himself as much as I viewed it as pushing an idea. Do you think I misread him on that last part?
Elvis_knits is still giving me this kind of mildly bad/blending kind of vibe. It doesn't feel like much, but Post 68 feels out of place every time I read it. It just seems disconnected from everything that's going on at the time, and has a vaguely accusatory edge that feels out of place too. Other than that, meh, she hasn't done anything that looks protown, and the attack on MBL seems a little off because I don't agree with either of the reasons.
Neutral on bluesoul. He's used some terrible logic at times, and Post 167 still smells funny (threatening chamber with suspicion or a vote seems more natural than what bluesoul said), but his tone does seem townish, and alot of the attacks on him so far have seemed to be for strange reasons.
Outside of those top 3 suspects, I'm not wild about IH's suspicions so far, nor his comment on MBL's numbers thing, though I can easily see town skimming over that debate. I feel similar about OGML's suspicions, though my assessment could change based on his next post. Elias is a player who I don't think ought to be in the game (nothing personal, just his schedule). I don't really agree with his reasons for suspecting both bluesoul and DBG, but that's about it. Need more to work with, and yet it's going to be a long time in coming. I'm at a bit of a loss there. I don't particularly like how Ether disappeared on vacation without answering my question or following up on her promise of activity, but I'm sticking to my two town reads for now. (MBL and Ether).
Anyway, DGB looks the worst to me with the attack on bluesoul.Unvote, Vote: DGBPrimpod 11:13 pm
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It's difficult to explain because it's largely my gut/metagame that I have on her. There's not really that much else on reading her posts in isolation, except that the worry about PJscum in Post 113 makes me think we're on a similar wavelength, since I was starting to get the feeling around that time. Not much I can point to unfortunately, just the way I'm leaning at this stage. I'd like her to rejoin the game in a timely manner when she gets back from vacation, so I can hopefully decide whether I'm right about this. It's never failed me before, but I'd hate to be careless.bluesoul wrote:Patrick: :goodposting: but I have a question for you, you haven't said much about Ether aside from fairly early in the game when you said it seemed like a genuine attempt to start the game off. Is that all or is there more you like? Explain why you feel she's a good town read (as I don't have much of a read on her either way and another perspective would be good).
I'll get to the argument between bluesoul and Sarcastro when I can, my brain doesn't seem to want to absorb it right now.Primpod 11:13 pm
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@chamber, just dipping into your thought process here, I don't have any problem seeing Sarcscum speaking for bluesoultown early in the game. Not that it sticks out to me as scummy, but it's quite plausible. Scum trying to make friends in the town is very common.
It's kind of interesting how much you wrote there. For someone who found it scummy how I was explaining my thought processes, you're doing it far more than is usual for you. I like the increased participation and hope it continues, but I'm curious as to why you're doing it, since I know you generally like to keep thoughts to yourself.
This is news to me. If this is true, what made you decide to explain why you voted me earlier in the game? I didn't even ask you to as such.chamber wrote:I'm always more then willing to explain my own actions as long as it has nothing to do with where my vote is.
Regarding drawing connections on day 1, I'm undecided on how good it is strategically. In theory it's good but I have had one or two games where I've done it and it's hurt my play because I was going after a pairing rather than just individual scum. I certainly don't think it's a scummy thing to do in general though.
She's done a bit of it, though I'd like to point out that you're suggestion that she was connecting you and PJ is false; if anything, it seemed like the opposite to me, since she floated a possibleelvis wrote:If I had to say one person who tipped the scales I would say DGB. I think she's done more than others about pairing people. Also pretty sure she has had little or no evidence when she draws these connections. Which makes it worse.disassociationbetween the two of you.Primpod 11:13 pm
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That's not what I meant. You're claiming that she tried to connect you to PJ, I'm saying that's false -- if anything, the opposite is true, since she gave a reason why the two of you might not be connected.elvis wrote:I am indeed suggesting that any connection between me and Pj is false.
Eh. It could the late hour, but this post sounds like you think I was attacking your vote. I was actually probing PJ's thought process there. (I don't think DBG's buttering up thing was scummy, so I wasn't wild about your vote, no).elvis wrote:I realize you are referring to PJ voting DGB and then me voting DGB for the same reason. There's not much I can tell you except that I had that reaction to her post before I even read PJ's. If you think that was an unreasonable reaction to DGB's post, then I somewhat understand you problem with my vote. But if you find my response reasonable, then why can't you believe two people would have the same reasonable reaction to it?
*Shrug* I used it to say that you just agreed with him and copied the vote, as that's what I understand it to mean. Definitely no spin intended.elvis wrote:It kind of makes me mad that you used the word "parotting" though. It smells like spin. Just because two people happen to agree on something doesn't mean they are parotting each other. And you said it like parotting was a fact.
Primpod 11:13 pm
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Her stated reasoning seemed more based on the fact that she thought your reason for voting her was "gratuitous", rather than unexplained. I don't think her reaction to the two votes was scummy, although there was some OMGUS to it; I can easily see a townie reacting like that to two rapid votes that come for reasons which they don't perceive to be valid. That's why I question your characterisation of it as "strange".PJ wrote:DGB was picking out the two people who had just voted her, and claimed we were her top suspects. Her reasoning was that I was "defending her" (a weak claim she has not supported) and then voting her without explanation – a phenomenon I am sure she has seen before, yet she does not bother to say why "unexplained votes" are scummy.
You're the second person to mention that word usage, so maybe it did have more negative connotations than intended. I do still feel somewhat that elvis copied you; the addition she added seemed like a non-sequitor (where did DGB endorse the alignment of a player just because she likes them?). If there's something more to that though, elvis can correct me.PJ wrote:I don't like how you use the word "parroting" (correcting the spelling here); EK had an additional reason for her vote ("alignment =/= whether you like somebody"), and it's certainly not scummy to agree with somebody. "Parroting" is really saying the same thing as somebody else, which EK was not doing. Your use of language is overly dismissive of EK's post.
Regarding my last question to you, I can understand your comparison to the attorney example, but I really don't understand why I'm being FoSed for that. My question still allows for you to say that you got no useful reactions if that's true. I suppose the wording carries more of an implication that you should have gotten something useful from it, maybe that stems from the fact that I would have expected you to comment on elvis's vote after, and you didn't.
You've said you don't like early pairings strategically, do you find it scummy as elvis does?
I probably have more to say, but I'm out of time.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Not really. I saw Ether's vote for elvis and didn't really agree that elvis's second post of the game was scummy in itself, but just something about how she was approaching the game gave me mildly bad feelings. I didn't try particularly hard to put it into words, no.MBL wrote:considering that e_k had only posted six sentences at that point.. should be relatively easy to pin down what you don't like.
A few bad vibes before, and that post made it enough for me to want to vote her. I don't understand what you're calling unusual.MBL wrote:Later, e_k calls Patrick out for voting her.. his response:
Patrick wrote:Not in itself, you just seem to be on the sidelines a fair bit.
A little unusual.. this is 24 hours after Patrick said e_k gave him bad vibes.
That wasn't an attack. Elvis asked what I wanted her to comment on, so I gave some suggestions. I wasn't saying that everyone should have definitively weighed in on every single issue, I was demonstrating why I thought she was ignoring the meat of the game. Did you read the context of that post?MBL wrote:Then this, which seems a bit manufactured:
Attacking people for not piping up on particular issues is not entirely logical. I see the wider point that e_k is going after a seemingly lesser issue, but.. still feels weird.Patrick wrote:After MBL's first analysis post, Ether asked you to comment on it. You've also not commented on bluesoul's wagon/alignment, which seems like a notable event in the game. Chamber's accusation against me, the suggestion of a bluesoul/Sarcastro link and the suggestion that Ether voted bluesoul whilst ignoring others who did the same as him all spring to mind as possible things to talk about. Any of those seem more relevant than what you highlighted.
Wow. You've done it AGAIN. You've snipped the part of that quote that makes it reasonably obvious what I was referring too. Here's the full paragraph:MBL wrote:This is REALLY weird:
Is this over the top or for real, Patrick? What exactly has never failed you before?Patrick wrote:Not much I can point to unfortunately, just the way I'm leaning at this stage. I'd like her to rejoin the game in a timely manner when she gets back from vacation, so I can hopefully decide whether I'm right about this. It's never failed me before, but I'd hate to be careless.
The first sentence, which you snipped, mentions my meta on Ether, which has never failed me before. Why did you snip that? And while we're at it, what the hell is over the top about any of that?Patrick wrote:It's difficult to explain because it's largely my gut/metagame that I have on her. There's not really that much else on reading her posts in isolation, except that the worry about PJscum in Post 113 makes me think we're on a similar wavelength, since I was starting to get the feeling around that time. Not much I can point to unfortunately, just the way I'm leaning at this stage. I'd like her to rejoin the game in a timely manner when she gets back from vacation, so I can hopefully decide whether I'm right about this. It's never failed me before, but I'd hate to be careless.
I disagree with the whole approach you've taken to this. Chamber is a player who I've nearly always known to be lurky and unhelpful, practically refusing to explain anything. His play is notably different in this game, and that was definitely worth asking about, especially since I thought I'd seen something that potentially went against his philosophy on how to play mafia. I said that I liked his increased participation and hope it continues; I suppose I can see how you might read the quote as a subtle attempt to deter participation, but I don't see how else I could have questioned him on the matter. I don't think he's scummy, but I don't think the reason for his increased participation is "obvious" at all (I'm assuming you were referring to the fact this is an invitational).MBL wrote:
Did you realize this might deter posting? Do you realize that would be a scum play?Patrick wrote:For someone who found it scummy how I was explaining my thought processes, you're doing it far more than is usual for you. I like the increased participation and hope it continues, but I'm curious as to why you're doing it, since I know you generally like to keep thoughts to yourself.
I still feel that she pretty much copied PJ's vote. Again, although she added an extra line, I didn't (and still don't) see that as an additional reason for voting. I'm not sure what else I can add, I didn't use the word to intentionally distort what was going on, and I feel it's being blown out of proportion.MBL wrote:It's pretty clear to me that parrotting is intended to convey mimickry without thought. Your explanation here stretches credulity, no offense intended.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Sometimes, my suspicions start off as gut feelings then become more tangible, either over time or because of a single post. I see what you're calling unusual, but simply disagree that it is.
Let's see if I can make this coherent. I disliked her play because she seemed to be ignoring the meat of the game in favour of something irrelevant. I wasn't attacking her for not commenting on one particular issue (I think it's fine to miss out one of them, or even several). I listed those only as a reply to a question, it wasn't really meant as an extension of the case.MBL wrote:I also thought you WERE attacking e_k for being on the sideline and not commenting on relevant issues. Why would you not call that an attack? A press on a player you believe to be scum based on oddities in their interactions?
After preview:
I'm not entirely sure he was making a case against me, it seemed more like a balanced analysis of my play. If you think he was, and he pointed out so many good tells, why didn't you vote me? It kind of feels like you're asking for his approval, in a way.DGB wrote:MBL, while reading your case on Patrick, I was exclaiming, in my head, "brilliant!" "OMG!" "I could never catch so many tells in a million years! What a stellar string!"
"I'm totally voting Patrick now!"
Then YOU don't vote Patrick.
Erm, why not?Primpod 11:13 pm
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He made some points against me, but also some in favour, and concluded that he wouldn't lynch me today. A case is usually more one sided. Regardless of whether it was a case or not, I don't get why you didn't vote me if you think it's so good and made you "totally want to vote Patrick now!" Why did MBL not voting me mean that you didn't vote me?Primpod 11:13 pm
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IH and elias hadn't even shown up then, and both were known to have limitations on there time (elias unable to post during week, and MBL posted something about IH being away until the 12th). Chamber had shown up, and despite having a lower number of posts than you, felt more involved and direct. There was also a bit of a contradiction in your play which I wasn't keen on.elvis wrote:Patrick, your initial reason for voting me was something about me ignoring the meat of the game, playing on the sidelines or something. At the time you posted that, it struck me that you were singling me out from others who were playing similarly (perhaps not contributing enough). IH, Chamber, Elias come to mind.
What made me seem scummier than others who weren't contributing that much?Primpod 11:13 pm
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DGB, still looking for an answer to the question in Post 242.
I think most of MBL's issues with my play are nitpicks, although I also realise I'm biased. His comments on Ether are actually a decent attempt to articulate the town read and look protown to me. I don't like the declaration that he'll FoS the next person "making hay" about chamber's increased activity; if it's suspicious, why not wait and see if someone does it?
In general MBL is posting alot and adding alot of content to the game, which is a refreshing change from how he played early on in our games together in the past. He's trying to get everyone involved and for the most part sounds genuine to me. I think that's more signficant than the distortions so far.
OGML and IH need to stop lurking and give us some good contributions. I've especially seen this kind of thing far too many times from IH.Primpod 11:13 pm
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DGB wrote:MBL, while reading your case on Patrick, I was exclaiming, in my head, "brilliant!" "OMG!" "I could never catch so many tells in a million years! What a stellar string!"
"I'm totally voting Patrick now!"
Then YOU don't vote Patrick.
Erm, why not?
Which is it? A page ago you said MBL made a great case against me that totally made you want to vote me, now you're saying bluesoul is the only person you're finding scummy at all? What exactly did you agree with? What changed your mind so quickly?DGB wrote:And now to answer your question, the only player that I find scummy is bluesoul. And even him, only borderline scummy. Everyone is looking pretty townie right now.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Hey DGB, it's rude to ignore people. I asked you questions in both Post 242 and Post 267. Please respond. I should probably explain that I found Post 239 fairly opportunistic, and I don't see how it's a townie thought process. It strongly implies you'd have voted me if MBL had, and didn't because he didn't. The follow up soon after which says you only find bluesoul even slightly suspicious baffles me more than I find it scummy, but I want to understand the thought process there too.
More often than nitpicks, I just see them as plain stupid. But to answer what I think you're asking, it's probably fairly rare. What's the purpose of this question?PJ wrote:2.) Patrick, how often do you think points against you are something other than nitpicks?
The rules say only that a deadline might be imposed after 3 weeks, and it can be avoided by staying active. All we have to do is simply (heh) stay active. I definitely favour the day going on a while longer, because I have very little read on several of players. And Elias missed posting at the weekend, again.Ether wrote:Speaking of which, what are people's thoughts on the deadline versus hypothetically having to hold out for posts from IH and OGML? (I'm assuming getting Elias on weekdays is a lost cause anyway. Do we know how long he's at summer camp?) I'm waffling between thinking, "Ooh, activity-based" and worrying that it couldn't possibly be more than a week.
Elvis, what do you think of PJ?Primpod 11:13 pm
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I'm not interpretting everything you do as scummy, I'm trying to work out what the hell is going on in your head. You know, what mafia is all about. Your boredom is of no interest to me right now.DGB wrote:I'm getting bored here. Anything I do or don't do is interpreted as scummy. It's getting old.
I've already explained how it wasn't a case against me, it seemed clear even from only those recaps he'd done that he found at least one player scummier than me. He even made a point of saying that he wouldn't lynch me today. So no, it didn't surprise me at all that he didn't vote me.DGB wrote:I'm still not sure what to make of that incident. MBL makes a case against you, does not vote you, I found THAT to be scummy. So no, I wasn't going to vote for you. That didn't jump at you as being scummy??? And then you react by claiming this was not a case against you at all. I've never seen that kind of behavior and I don't know if you're townies caught in your own pointless verbiage, or if you're scumbags trying to set up false trails for later confusion.
The fact that you vaguely agreed with his points without getting your hands dirty with any specifics, mostly.DGB wrote:And what's OPPORTUNISTIC about it, Patrick???
I didn't vote. I didn't trust MBL. Show me the opportunism.
Unvotethough. I need to think about this.Primpod 11:13 pm
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PJ wrote:What is it with so many people questioning the purpose of my questions lately? The best questions are the ones that don't have an apparent purpose, precisely because people don't know whether they're answering how they "should" answer it or not.
I kind of felt like you knew what the likely answer would be from playing/ranting with me, although I can't remember a specific time when I've said to you, "I often think attacks on me are trash" or something similar.
Newbie 224 (first game I played you, first game overall) and open 54 (my most recent scum performance). In the newbie game I think virtually everything said about me was fair although I haven't read it in ages, and in open 54, the most valid point of the whole game against me was made by Glork on page 3 or thereabouts, about my wagon hop onto appleof88. There are other games - the two where I was lynched as town, which I'm not going to name, and probably others that I can look up if necessary.PJ wrote:--> a.) If you think most points against you are nitpicks, can you show me cases made against you in a couple finished game that you felt were justified (i.e. not "nitpicks")? [Note: If you think nitpicks are justified, then please rephrase your complaint against MBL, because complaining about justified points just seems like sulking].
I don't know. More as town because I'm town more, but in relative terms, I've no idea.PJ wrote:--> b.) Do you feel like you get nitpicked more as town or as scum?
I guess they often do have a kernel of truth. I don't feel I can answer the question of whether or not they're justified in general terms, I have to just say it depends. Answer to the next question might help though.PJ wrote:--> c.) Do you think nitpicks often have kernels of truth in them? If not, why call them nitpicks? If there's truth to nitpicks, do you feel they are justified? How justified?
Again, I've never really thought about it in general terms, and I think case by case is more useful. For example, I could see town doing it early in the game just to get some discussion going. Later on it depends on whether or not there are alot of strong suspicions/cases going around, if there are, a nitpick may look bad in comparison. Sometimes scum dissect a player's posts and do it in an attempt to make them look bad, sometimes you see paranoid or stubborn townies doing it, and telling them apart can be done by looking at timing/tone/probably other stuff I've forgotten. In this game, I could see MBL's post as kind of feeling me out as town, and find what he's in the process of doing now to be modestly protown.PJ wrote:--> d.) Do you think scum or town are more likely to nitpick?
I think there are some fairly significant differences, which I wouldn't call nitpicky.PJ wrote:--> e.) Do you think you play drastically different as scum than as town? Do you think most of the differences are minor? Minor enough to sound nitpicky?
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They sound kind of genuine to me, although I know DGB has a reputation of being a good actor.Ether wrote:So, um, DGB's appeals to emotion do make me nervous.
Elvis's vote for DGB is bugging me, and I am really struggling to articulate why. The best I can do is say that I don't really find DGB's, "We need more voting/wagoning" comment to be scummy - it's weird, but seems like it's as likely to draw votes onto her as onto anyone else, since she's the leading wagon, and therefore, I find elvis's translation of it in post 265 innacurate.
There's other stuff I need to do, like look more closely at the lurkers highlighted in the last two posts, but I really have to leave this now. Hopefully later. In the meantime, we're probably ok if we have a decent number of people posting often, since the formula probably takes into account number of posts and number of players posting.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Check in post for activity, I'm busy today but can get some content tomorrow. I should add that I'll have limited access from Monday-Saturday next week; the place I'm going has wireless, but it's very expensive so I won't be using it heavily. I'll try to keep up though.Primpod 11:13 pm
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I'm not seeing much to seperate the lurkers in my mind. I somewhat doubt that elias is lurking strategically -- he missed several weekends in Mini 585, a game which I took over modding a while ago, and he even critisised me there after his lynching for not PMing him to notify him he was dead (indicating that he was generally paying no attention whatsoever). I'm not especially impressed with his suspicions post because his top two suspects/reasoning for top two look rather mechanical.
I feel somewhat similar about IH's first post, although he asked PJ a fair question. His "Someone correct me if anything I've said is wrong as I was trying to read this quickly. " doesn't bother me as I can easily see that written in the middle of a stream of consciousness type post. I think his mention of Ether's case agaist elvis is slightly weird because the part he analyses is the most irrelevant part that was pretty clearly an early discussion stimulator. Other than that I can't see much else to pick out: his activity/effort hardly surprises me because I've seen him as useless for like a year now, and frankly I just wish he'd stop signing up for games and not playing them.
I'm ok with OGML's questioning MBL's town read of him, and might even have given him half a protown point for it, if he'd actually dropped it after MBL's reasonable explanation. Looking back, I weakly agree with Ether's suspicion of OGML's weirdly overreaching attack on her. I don't find it scummy that he's claiming there's a connection between PJ, Ether and Sarcastro even though I don't see one, because I don't think scum are more likely to do this, especially between 3 players who aren't strongly in the spotlight.
I saw IH as the worst of these three when I reread the game a while ago, but I'm not seeing much of a difference between any of them scumminess wise anymore. I don't think any of them would make a good lynch today; I do think they need more heat early tomorrow so that they stop disgracing this game -- any or all of these guys could be scum, and we need to force them to be involved in the game in real time. Scum have a far easier time lurking and making catch up posts every week or so -- don't let anyone do this.
It's actually occurred to me that Sarcastro hasn't done much lately either. Holiday might be a factor. I'm too lazy now (writing this after the rest of the post) to look much into him, although PJ's analysis seems reasonable.
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On current things, DBG isn't becoming any easier for me to read. I also am struggling to see what role could be better off being lynched than being in the open (supersaint is possible I guess, but rare, if that's what's going on, I want DBG to claim it right now). I could see this as a scum gambit and I could see DGB using it, add my name to the list of players who want a full claim. Without one, I'd be willing to go with a DBG lynch on the chance she's gambitting, it's a reasonably informative lynch anyway and I think she's done some scummy things. The wagon still worries me though, in part because of the stickiness of some of the votes on it, especially when DGB is an easy target if town, and because elvis's vote still seems a bit off; it's like she was building up to it in her previous two posts before the vote with what she asked DBG, and I'm not too convinced by her reasons. There's nothing outrageous here I can point too, but my gut dislikes it.
DBG, if you're town, please prove that you're not making up some story to confuse everyone, and claim your role. It's obvious that a bunch of people want you too, and I really can't think of any role where it would be better for you to be lynched than to have to claim.
My main dilemna is between DBG and elvis: which I want to lynch is affected by DGB's claim. I'll make it a priority to keep checking this game when on holiday: I think it pretty unlikely that we're going to be zapped by the day auto-ending particularly soon, but we have to err on the side of speed because of the unknown nature of it.
MBL: Have you got a top suspect/top two at the moment?
Elvis: In the post where you voted DGB, you said this:
Which seems to critisise her for only having a stance on one player (bluesoul). PJ has said he only has two real reads (on DBG and MBL), but you haven't mentioned that as bothering you. Maybe I'm not understanding the quote correctly, but if that's what it is, do you feel there are some differences between your issue here with DGB and PJ taking alot of middle ground?Elvis wrote:DGB wrote:Everyone is looking pretty townie right now.
I find that players make statements like that when:
1)they are trying not to scum hunt
2)they need an excuse why they are not scum hunting
3)they want to fly under the radar
Ether: Did you get anything from Thespival about DGB, or was that covered by "DGB's wagon is giving me a bad feeling"?Primpod 11:13 pm
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First off, I'm not going to avoid asking questions on the chance they might annoy you. I won't get anywhere if I approach the game like that. Secondly, I was not trying to connect you to PJ, I was questioning your consistency between two players; that need not imply a connection. For the record: I have considered the possibility that you're both scum, not really due to any strong connection, but just because I find you both scummy and see no disassociations. If you think that's unreasonable, I'd like you to explain why.Elvis wrote:Patrick, it's starting to really annoy me how you keep trying to connect me to PJ. Not only is there no connection there, but I don't think that you could honestly feel like you see one.
Actually, on seeing this, I'll scratch that as I think I read too much into it. Regarding PJ, I think it would be rather harsh to say he's not scumhunting at all. I do think he's scumhunting less than usual.Elvis wrote:I don't see the correlation here between DGB's play and PJ's play. DGB's comment of "everyone looking pretty townie" is a tell that I have seen scum make. It is representative of a player who is not scum hunting. I don't think PJ fits that category. Do you? Pj has been asking a lot of questions and commenting a lot. If he's not scum hunting, then I guess he's putting on a pretty good show. If you think his play is somehow similar to DGB's you're going to have to explain it to me, because I just am not seeing it.Primpod 11:13 pm
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I can't remember asking you questions about connections to PJ. I don't have especially long online, so I can't check closely, but all I can remember asking that you might have interpretted that way was when I asked you and PJ for opinions of each other, which is something I do semi-often. I'd like some examples of "different BS points" that I've brought up, otherwise I'll assume that's just a cheap shot you can't back up. This whole quote by you is weird, and I'm not sure I can even see what you're accusing me of, let alone why you're voting me.elvis wrote:Patrick, I have been asked before about connections between me and PJ. I have answered all your questions and tried to be as helpful as possible. YOU have not argued with my explanations. All you do is bring up different BS points. If you feel my explanations have been bad or unsatisfactory, why haven't you argued against them? OF COURSE you were drawing a connection between myself and PJ. You've asked about us before, so why wouldn't you be doing it now? Your failure to admit it is very strange and hmmmm, scummy. If you think I'm being unreasonable, I'd like you to explain why.
unvote; vote patrickPrimpod 11:13 pm
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So what? Do I need to pull up examples of myself asking this kind of question in previous games? I sometimes ask for opinions of players I find scummy, sometimes I ask just because I don't have a clear idea what a player thinks of another player. Sometimes both. Sometimes maybe some other reason. I still find that an extraordinarily weak vote on your part.elvis wrote:It all rolls into Patrick trying to connect me to PJ. And before you say "I ask other players what they think of each other quite often and it means nothing," realize you haven't asked me specifically to comment on any other player.Primpod 11:13 pm
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That came under the category of asking about players I find scummy, and the category of asking when I didn't have a clear idea. I don't particularly mind PJ's characterisation of testing a possible connection. I do object to your characterisation that I'm trying to force a connection, then apparently voting me because you think I'm denying it (why would I need to deny it??)
And obviously I don't have your opinions of everyone in the game. If I was asking questions like that, I'd simply ask you what you think of every player. I don't often bother with that.Primpod 11:13 pm
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I find it somewhat unlikely that Ether and elvis are scum together, but not for the reason you gave. I agree that chamber/elvis is unlikely. Not sure on elvis/PJ.
Your last post kind of baffles me. You seem to be assuming both IH and elias are town for no particular reason, unless I'm missing something. (For the record, I know IH is perfectly capable of lurking like this as scum.) I kind of get that the post seems to be a theory thing based on elvis definitely being scum, but I don't see why that would clear those two. Also surprised that you think Patrick/elvis is at all likely; you've 95% struck off elvis/Ether because you don't think elvis would seek approval from a scumbuddy, so what do you think of the post where elvis seeks mine by trying to make me feel better about her? Quite a curious post overall.
I'm going tovote: DGB. Needs to stop stalling on the claim.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Welcome pablito.
MBL, I don’t have any meta on elias, but I don’t see why deliberate lurking (which I’m still not convinced he’s doing) would make him more likely town. If a scum lurks and succeeds in flying under the radar because of it, they’re not really letting their team down. A lurking townie is nearly always letting the town down.
I feel that Ether could be posting more at this point, especially since she’s leaving tomorrow and already made a point of telling us how she’d be struggling to contribute much after her last holiday because of our lack of time.
I’m still kind of in two minds, but I don’t want the possibility of a DBGscum getting through by just stalling on us.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Apologies for lack of quotes and lack of checking any page other than the last two; I’m typing this thing offline due to the extortionate cost of access etc etc.
@pablito, the main part for me to respond to is my post 261, which I assume was a comment on MBL’s activity. Of course, MBL posts content as both alignments. He’s doing more in this game than I’ve experienced in all 4 of my past games with him (3 of which he was scum). I don’t understand your interpretation of DGB’s half claim either, but even if she was following some convoluted scheme, I’d say it’s high time to realise that it’s not helping. Who do you suspect the most from your radar list? Presumably DGB is up there somewhere due to the vote, but who else?
I find it unlikely MBL/DGB are scum together – there’s just too much open coaching and support. (That said, since this morning, it seems he’s arguing the same, after previously saying he’d look bad if DBG is lynched as scum. Hmm.) I could see MBLscum trying to look good if he knows DGB will come up town; I could also see genuinely uncertain MBLtown. I think I’d be looking into elvis and pablito the most if DBG is lynched as town, but as I’ve said already, a number of people need more attention tomorrow if still around, because of how little they’ve done today. If DGB is scum, my suspicion of pablito would fall somewhat, but elvis is probably still a good suspect.Primpod 11:13 pm
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I don't find Ether's asking for DGB to confirm/deny being a supersaint to be scummy, though I disagree that there's no harm done if DGBscum claims supersaint (even if it's a dead end claim, I'd rather know someone is scum now than in a couple of days).
pablito, I'm still looking for an idea of who you suspect most from your list.
DGB wrote:Like pablito, Patrick also calls out Elias for lurking, but not IH. In this post,, Patrick makes what can almost be construed as excuses for IH's lurking. He later says: "I don't think any of them would make a good lynch today; I do think they need more heat early tomorrow so that they stop disgracing this game." Why not today, why tomorrow? What does he expect to change? Patrick does get townie points for pointing out that MBL seems to label IH & Elias as town for "no particular reason."
IH is generally so lazy that he'll blow off games regardless of alignment. I've played with him doing it as town, doing it as scum and even had to deal with it as a mod before (Mafia 70, where he played under the alt Flare). I'm not making excuses for him - I think it's very inconsiderate, especially to keep doing it repeatedly - I'm just giving my opinion that it doesn't mean much alignmentwise. My comment about not lynching any of the lurkers today was because I don't think any of them are all that scummy and it would be little better than a random lynch. I don't see it as practical to start pressure wagoning any of them at this point either.
I'm going toUnvote, Vote: elvis_knitsPrimpod 11:13 pm
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Ether a few days ago wrote: I'm not arguing that the lynch need necessarily be DGB, but with her lurking and refusing to claim, that's what I favor right now.
What changed your mind, if not DGB posting analysis?Ether today wrote:Having said that, unvote; vote: elvis_knits. (Not influenced by DGB's analysis, but I'd prefer an Elvislynch anyway and their wagons are closer now.)Primpod 11:13 pm
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DGB's analysis would be the obvious thing to spring to my mind as well, except she said in that post that it wasn't influenced by that, and the addition of the word "anyway" reinforces that in my mind. Your interpretation is possible (although I don't get why you needed to offer it before she even said anything). I dislike the suggestion that I'm being underhanded; even if your interpretation is correct, I don't see how that could work as any kind of deliberate trickery on my part.Chamber wrote:You are being underhanded here. She make it clear in the first post that her pressure on dgb was there because she wasn't being productive. Its clear then that it was dgbs analysis that convinced ether to vote elvis what I imagine her post meant however was that dgb didn't make ether suspect elvis more then dgb but dgb less then elivis.
I'll say more on other recent stuff tomorrow.Primpod 11:13 pm
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For reasoning as to why I find elvis scummy, I'd refer you to DGB's last post, which refers to my posts throughout the game. If you're questioning the specific timing of the switch, I did it because DBG came back and at least seems to be making an effort to analyse the game. I'm still leery of the claim situation, but don't feel right voting DBG over elvis at this point. I'd like you to give a little more detail as to what you find scummy about elvis's recent posts, because your suspicion of her seems to have occurred with precious little explanation behind itbluesoul wrote:I'm a bit alarmed at the speed of Elvis's wagon, votes were placed in posts 401, 402, and 404 to go from 1 to 4. Granted, MBL was already starting to push that way, and one of them is DGB. Patrick's jumps out at me moreso than Ether's because Ether already admitted she was on the DGB wagon because it was more protown than fighting it. Patrick's vote occurred with precious little explanation behind it. That would be the first possibility of a pairing I've contemplated thus far in the game (DGB-Patrick). For the record, I do not go actively looking for scum partners on Day One. Day 2 all bets are off though.Primpod 11:13 pm
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It gave me a good enough idea of your suspects, though I hope you'll provide some thoughts on elvis relatively soon. I don't really get your case on Ether, though I vaguely remember you using a kind of, "They haven't been on the defensive" type of tell before.pablito wrote:Patrick, did my last answer suffice or did you want more extrapolation. Just want to check in with you about that since I failed to answer you right away last time.
I can tell I'm going to have to reread these last few pages with more focus; should happen tomorrow. For now, I'm most interested in elvis spelling out her thought process on what the scum motive was behind the quote snipping.Primpod 11:13 pm
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I dislike this whole campaign against people drawing connections. Let me link to an MD thread I made ages ago: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 098#583098. I feel this thread is relevant even though I was asking at the time more with newbie games in mind. The answers tell me that drawing connections or not drawing connections is a stylistic thing: you can see a number of good players in favour of it, some are ok with it, a few don't like it. You're free to find it ineffective on day 1 if you like, and in one or two cases I even agree that MBL and DGB may be setting too much store in you being scum, but I feel you're trying too hard to paint anyone who does it as scummy.elvis wrote:You know, I really don't know when this game jumped the shark in terms of relying too much on stupid connections between players. I don't think it was uber horrible from the start. And I don't think there is a definitive point where it got bad. I just think we've been going that way for a while. I can go back and see who the first person was to try making a bad connection between people. Is that what you want me to do? Blame it all on one person? I'm not sure that would really be reliable. I'm not sure the first person to say something like that is def. scum. But it may be worth discussing.
I think the players that have been trying to connect others most are: MBL, DGB, Patrick, Ether, OGML (I think he was saying something about sarc/bluesoul early in the game). I obviously know it's not possible for all of them to be scum, so that's why I made the comments that we were contributing to a bad environment. I'm not sure who is/is not scum in that group. But I have not liked some of the comments that each of them have made in regards to connecting people based off little evidence or reasoning.
And really, I'm relying heavily on connections? I've done loads of scumhunting based on individual players using tells and gut feelings; the only thing that I can remember doing that was even close to drawing a connection was asking you and PJ what you thought of each other; are you saying it's a crime to even ponder a possible connection? I think you're just spouting hyperbole.Primpod 11:13 pm
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I'm actually talking about the whole notion rather than that one post, although it did push me over the edge. What I get from your posts is that you're saying anyone drawing connections today is scummy. I'll quote the post where I got this:elvis wrote:I mentioned that you were one of the people forging connections between players that I do not agree with. (And since the connection involved me, I am the best person to judge if it's right).
I never said that it's a crime to ponder the possibilty of two people being connected. I said we're relying too much on it. And I only mentioned your name because pablito was asking me to name people who have been doing it. Why do I feel like pablito set a trap, I walked right in, and Patrick locked the cage door behind me?
The post I quoted in my last post also fairly clearly has an accusatory edge towards all the people you listed, and I think that any notion that I've been contributing towards a "bad environment" is hyperbole, since hardly anything I've done is based on connections.elvis, post 216 wrote:And for the record, I do think that everyone that has tried making these "connections" on D1 is somewhat scummy. I'd have to look at individual instances to be able to comment on the exact degree of scumminess. But in general, I think it's scummy move.
I don't like the notion that drawing connections on day 1 is scummy because:
1) It's clearly debated whether it's useful or not, and people have different opinions to you (not affected by alignments, as shown by the MD thread).
2) Even if someone is definitely pushing a connection too hard, I don't think it's clear that it's scummy. I often see townies simply becoming too married to their conspiracy theories.
What trap do you think you've just been caught in?
Fuel for the fire again. Nice.chamber wrote:If it makes you feel any better patrick misrepresenting your one post was clear to at least me.Primpod 11:13 pm
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I stand by my thought that the big deal you've been making out the "bad environment" and any suggestion that I'm contributing to such an environment is hyperbole, and I also dislike the idea that anyone doing it is scummy (I just don't think that's tenable given the number of people who seem to be happy doing it on any day 1). Then again, I think I've seen the second one as a game philosophy before, so probably not much point arguing anymore about it.elvis wrote:Patrick, I disagree. I've made my opinion clear. I mildly resent you calling my thoughts hyperbole, especially when you're at least as bad as I am. I felt like it was a trap because I only brought my point up again because Pablito asked me to, and that triggered a fresh attack from you. I only named you because Pablito was fishing for it. I feel like he set me up.
Probably not too urgent. I'm hoping recent replacements and a replacement still being looked for contributes in some way to the formula.pablito wrote:Question - anyone think we're at risk of deadline at this point? I think the replacements have caused an uptick of activity, but I don't want to assume that the days before didn't cause us to fall into deadline.
I'd like to see posts from DGB, bluesoul and Ether. Ether in particular feels like she hasn't contributed for a long time, and I know she's had the access to do so.Primpod 11:13 pm
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I actually feel the need to contradict the first part, and not as some daft attention seeking act. If you're going to put signficant weight in that kind of paranoia, you need to check your facts, because I'm actually much weaker as scum than as town. The other observation feels genuine, though I feel that particular meta is a year or so out of date.MBL wrote:Beware Patrick. I'm sure he'd make magnificent scum. What irked me about him when I was scum and he was town is that he exuded towniness and I couldn't sucker anyone into finding him the least bit suspicious. His posts had a golden quality about them. Not quite as much so this game. Not terrible, but not squeaky clean.
I can't be bothered to analyse anything having just worked 13 hours, so I'll just add that most of the other comments seem reasonable, except that I'd look harder at bluesoul if elvis is scum.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Sure, but what I was trying to say was that I wouldn't be great as scum.MBL wrote:What I was trying to say is that though I think you'd be great scum, you wouldn't seem AS sincere in your scumhunting unless you were pointing out the real flaws in your scumpartners.
How come Ether isn't on this list? It seems like she falls into exactly the same category you've put me in. If you think there's something wrong with my arguments against elvis, I'd rather you explain it now.CDB wrote:If you're town, I'll be looking back at Patrick, who pushed you early, and MBL, who picked up on you later but has since pushed hard (I found his analysis less compelling than DGB's).
I'm arguing semantics? You and PJ were the ones who attacked me over fucking trifling issues of word choice, and even now you've still been trying to cling onto my use of the word "parotting" as a major point against me. I said that I dislike the whole idea that looking for pairings on day 1 is scummy: I gave arguments for why I don't think it is, and I've called you on what I believe is you reaching to broadly paint anyone who does it as scummy. Obviously you disagree with that assessment, but how is that arguing semantics?elvis wrote:Or how Patrick argued semantics with me about how I dislike pairings on D1, when he could have been scum hunting. I think he was just trying to stay active while contributing nothing, and hoping my lynch would go through.
Personally I haven't just decided she's town. The analysing of the game just put her below elvis in my suspicions.elias wrote:basically caught up, analysis post will come in a day or two as I try to refine reads. My question: why are we disregarding the scummy moves that DGB has taken just because she stoppedbeing emo and posted some analysis? Does that erase all of her scummy posts? Just curious as to where all the leniency towards her is coming from, and why.Primpod 11:13 pm
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I think you're reaching here.bluesoul wrote:Refusing to selfhammer isn't indicative of anything other than the refuser isn't a moron, so why bring it up at all unless you think it's telling of something?
This is so bad I have to take you to task on it. PJ did not have it spot on - his point of view likely comes from several bad experiences he's had where playing with a list of good players has resulted in a town loss. His experiences are not necessarily representitive of what really goes on (I've taken part in a number of high level games that ended in town wins). And of course it's possible to lynch scum on day 1. This kind of attitude is seriously not helpful, and heck, you yourself brought up an example of a high level game where scum was lynched on day 1.bluesoul wrote:and honestly the thought we're going to reason out a scum lynch day 1 is silly; PJ had it spot on with his "you can catch some good players, but you can't catch them all" statement.
Ether has been rising in my suspicions, just because this kind of disinterest (especially when game is not boring) is more consistent with how she plays as scum than as town.
I'm not all that bothered by the lack of vote from pablito and elias at this point, because I doubt the day will come to a halt just yet. pablito gives me better vibes than PJ did actually, but he's hard for me to read.Primpod 11:13 pm
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I suppose I hadn't called anyone scum before voting elvis, but I was clearly commenting on issues and alignments. That's what I felt was missing from her play. I don't see why saying it early game is a problem - that's a time when you attack people over minor things, and I saw a post that pinged.HackerHuck wrote:Parick has bothered me for much of the game. He calls out E_K for not scum hunting quite early in the game, which is an odd place to do so - especially when he hadn't been doing it either.
I said it gave me early town vibes. In my experience, scum are often nervous at the start of the game, and probably doubly so in an invitational, so early attempts to generate activity often gain protown points in my book. I don't remember specifically calling it "very protown"; post number?HackerHuck wrote:I also didn't like what I saw as a little buttering up of MBL when referring to his first post as very pro-town.
Can you clarify what this means?HackerHuck wrote:He made some very good points about Patrick and Patrick shows up quickly to rebut. Note that my comment above about Sarcastro regards lurking scum/townies.
I can't really respond to this with anything other than "I disagree" (I don't think she came out on top of any dust up with me, whichever one of the many you're referring too).HackerHuck wrote:I actually felt that E_K earned some points by coming out on top of Patrick in their dust-up, but that won't really mean anything if they're both scum.
I agree somewhat that elvis was reaching on the SK issue, but your other (main?) reason for suspecting her seems odd to me. It doesn't seem scummy on her part.
Been someone preoccupied lately, but I want to look over and decide how I feel about the replacers/elias soon. For now, I'll satisfy myself with repeating that Ether needs to post. Or at least, give us an update or something.Primpod 11:13 pm
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A tiny bit, added to the niggling doubts I got from the way CDB joined the wagon, but I'm not sure I have a stronger suspect. I owe the game a bit of a catchup, and should be fine to do that tomorrow.elvis wrote:Does the fact that you don't like his reasons for voting me make you think twice about lynching me?Primpod 11:13 pm
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elias is worrying me. He hasn't posted anything particularly bad (unexplained protown read on Sarcastro seems weird, but I spose there could be something I'm not seeing), but he's flying really low under the radar. He hasn't posted in 8 days, and his last few posts could just be waiting to see which way people go on DGB before committing to something. If he's scum, this has been a cakewalk for him so far; he really needs to be more heavily involved in the game in real time.
CDB's analysis looks somewhat meatier, doesn't really remind me of the last time I played with him, where he was scum. His jump on the elvis wagon still feels awkward to me, it usually pings my scumdar when I see any trace of deferring responsibility, however minor, and I think he does that with, " and I'm thinking that it may be best for me to trust those who have been playing this from the start and clearly feel strongly against elvis. (And, as I say, I am suspicious after reading the above)". Nevertheless, he looks ok to me overall.
HackerHuck gives me mixed signals. Some of his comments on players look very reasonable and match up pretty well with my own, but his reasons for suspicion of elvis leave me unconvinced. This particularly:
I've looked back at Ether's post on this, and it seemed pretty obvious why she wanted elvis specifically to hammer. Can you better explain this suspicion? Elvis responded and you just ignored it, saying you'd hammer her later and that her lynch is a foregone conclusion. I can see what you're getting at with your other point against her, but still doesn't seem that big, and you were apparently reading elvis as not very likely mafia in the first 10 pages.HackerHuck wrote:My biggest concerns came with her lack of interest in why Ether wanted her specifically to hammer. I am still wondering why that is, but Elvis never seemed to care and it wasn't like that comment slipped by her.
bird: I find it odd how you said you didn't like both Ether's and my unexplained votes so early in the game. Do you feel voting without giving reasons is inherently scummy, or was there something in particular about these posts that bothered you? (I'm aware you retracted your dislike of mine).
Can you elaborate on why PJ looked town to you?
I think elias looks worse than CDB, and I'm still making my mind up on the other two pending a few responses. (I might do bird again as I'm getting lazy now).
Starting to lean towards bluesoul as town based on gut from the tone of his posts, and the way in which he seems to repeatedly get flak for these early game reasons which I've never found convincing. I'm slightly less confident in my vote than before, but no other vote really appeals to me at the moment.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Elvis is my top suspect. After that I think it's DGB, pablito, HackerHuck and elias. That's the ordering that comes to mind offhand, I'd need to reread to be sure of it. Maybe switch pablito and HackerHuck there, since HackerHuck hasn't really convinced me with his response to my questioning. I'd like to see pablito playing slightly less casually at this point though.
elias seems the most consistent skater throughout the game. CDB owes us a post, Ether still feels like she could be doing more.MBL wrote:* Is there anyone who's skating to D2, and how can we get more info on them ASAP?Primpod 11:13 pm
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Home internet down, and I have zero access at work (nor library after today). On very quickly skimming I wasn't impressed with elias's attack on DGB, but I'm surprised a wagon came of it. I'll read up as soon as home access is restored - should be friday at the latest.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Back from my limited access, somewhat agree with elias's response there. Some thoughts on what I've seen:
MBL was practically having orgasms about the game on his return from his holiday, I'd guess it's genuine so he's probably town. My only caveat is that I thought he was probably town in the first half of FTF Mafia and he wasn't; his play seems different here though.
Ether seems protown again after her last few: brings up several points I agree with, especially about elvis, and I doubt she'd have defended elias at that point as scum (regardless of elias's alignment).
bluesoul's last post looks unreasonable and he could be doing stuff himself (MBL asked him a question if I recall). Still the frustrated town tone.
I agree with those saying that elias's posts did seem already geared towards his end result, which was voting DGB. Overall he made some ok points, some of which are issues I have with DGB, although the analysis seemed rather harsh. There's very little in elias's posting that gives me town vibes, and a few mild scummy things (lurking/noncommital for ages and then his approach to voting DGB). I would tolerate an elias lynch, but I think elvis or DGB would be better (and *possibly* HackerHuck or pablito although I keep changing my mind especially with pablito).
My top suspects haven't substantially changed, but I feel somewhat disconnected from the game and would welcome (even appreciate) any questions about specific things.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Disagree, I think your failure to post was getting more attention. Lack of votes doesn't necessarily mean there was no pressure on you to produce the goods, and I don't think the fact you're analysing players makes you more likely to be town. I do agree that the wagon on you in overdone.elias wrote: Further, were I scum, I could have easily lurked straight through to Day Two as basically no one was pressuring me. The fact that I'm even analizing players is a point in my favor which no recognizes.
I'm slightly surprised you're reading bluesoul as town since your summary there was mostly critisism and you've read him as slightly scummy up until now. Anything in particular about him that reads as protown?Primpod 11:13 pm
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