Mini Normal 2135 (Endgame)

[Drew-Sta]

Good morning (for me) friendly people. Your resident drunken Australian has woken up, eaten his bowl of cereal and is about to move onto his coffee.

How are we?

[Drew-Sta]

Everyone is town or scum regardless of anything else.

Exactly. So I don't see the point in waiting for

"let's get everyone posting and solidly out of RVS stage"

before I say what I think.

I think George is being relaxed in his posting and interested in solving - questioning vote changes.

I find that to be Town indicative. Is it, as a whole, weak? Yes. Is it strong enough to get it out in the open and get the ball rolling? Also yes.

Do you scumread me for putting Persi on L-2? What about me having a "townread" early on?

Why do you think he's relaxed? Why do you think he's interested?

[Drew-Sta]

Why do you think he's relaxed? Why do you think he's interested?

Posts 17/19/21 strike me as relaxed, 29/31 as interested.

I think you're making conversation for the sake of making conversation and trying to look like you're taking notice of things that aren't really there.

The 'relaxing' you've cited is start-game small-talk which is usually a response to the excitement of a new game. If anything, I'd argue George is a little excited (as we all are).

The interested ones were questions, and of that, 29 is the only interested one. 31 was a response to farside.

You're clearly a little jumpy.

The L-2 is more a scum leaning thing in my mind than a faulty town read.

What's wrong with putting someone to L-2? Hammering would be an obvious scum claim.

Like, I get this mindset if it was a newbie game, but most people have the incentive to either unvote or not hammer.

I've seen people enter and just throw a random vote on without paying attention to the thread, especially that early in the game. Not worth the risk.

You seem a little averse to votes, if I may say so. Isn't a bullshit lynch a clue to who is mafia? I'm never for townies dying, but I think we're all aware that they do and quite often - that usually gives clues, don't you think?

[Drew-Sta]

You seem a little averse to votes, if I may say so. Isn't a bullshit lynch a clue to who is mafia? I'm never for townies dying, but I think we're all aware that they do and quite often - that usually gives clues, don't you think?

Are you somehow suggesting a quick lynch day one is somehow a good thing?

A lynch is good, a quick lynch where we don't really get any solid information, and could end up running down the wrong direction because "X quick-hammered on day 1, must be scum" would be a bad way to go, but it would also allow scum to do it and go "whoops" right after.

Yes, we can get information from a town lynch, that doesn't mean I want it to happen on page 2.

I'm suggesting you can learn things in all situations, even a quick lynch without solid information. Why? Because you need at least 7 people willing to vote and that identifies something.

George has a point that poking and prodding with votes gains you knowledge. Getting to 6 votes teaches you something too.

[Drew-Sta]

I never said I was happy with it. Simply that you can always learn something from it.

[Drew-Sta]

I think my issue is, Prana, that you threw down two votes, then criticised someone else for doing something not dissimilar to you.

[Drew-Sta]

Funny enough i get town and scum reads with a few pages.
I'm not married to the reads but it help sort people out and keep notes on those im not town reading.
I really dont see why tanners views should be pucked apart especially when he asmiited it wasnt a strong read.
People have strong reads early on all the time. Even on page 2.

I have no problem with early reads. I have a problem with poor analysis.

[Drew-Sta]

The L-2 is more a scum leaning thing in my mind than a faulty town read.

What's wrong with putting someone to L-2?

Hammering would be an obvious scum claim.

That's why scum would put someone at L-2, to avoid the sus of hammering town.

Agree.

[Drew-Sta]

I think my issue is, Prana, that you threw down two votes, then criticised someone else for doing something not dissimilar to you.

I threw down two RVS votes, then criticised Tanner for putting them at L-2.

And you subsequently have agreed that putting someone at L-2 is something scum would do rather than hammer... so you agree with me, while telling me I was wrong to criticise Tanner for it...

No. I suggested we shouldn't be afraid of votes. Votes give intent and help identify patterns later. Something we can use. I also said shit lynches also give us something useful to work with.

I guess I'm happy for collateral damage.

I think you're making conversation for the sake of making conversation and trying to look like you're taking notice of things that aren't really there.

That's a scum charge, but you don't vote it.

VOTE: Drew

Yeah, sure, maybe it is. What of it? You have to poke and prod to get responses. It's clear you're responding. Why are you so threatened?

Also - is Drew-Sta anything remotely similar to Nancy Drew?

Sadly not Just a player clearing out some cobwebs.

Also - is Drew-Sta anything remotely similar to Nancy Drew?

We'll see - if it's a Nancy Drew alt she'll eventually go ballistic on me.

Ballistic gets everyone nowhere. Ballistics, however, can be quite an explosive time

Funny enough i get town and scum reads with a few pages.
I'm not married to the reads but it help sort people out and keep notes on those im not town reading.
I really dont see why tanners views should be pucked apart especially when he asmiited it wasnt a strong read.
People have strong reads early on all the time. Even on page 2.

I have no problem with early reads. I have a problem with poor analysis.

You asked him for his read.

Everyone is town or scum regardless of anything else.

Exactly. So I don't see the point in waiting for

"let's get everyone posting and solidly out of RVS stage"

before I say what I think.

I think George is being relaxed in his posting and interested in solving - questioning vote changes.

I find that to be Town indicative. Is it, as a whole, weak? Yes. Is it strong enough to get it out in the open and get the ball rolling? Also yes.

Do you scumread me for putting Persi on L-2? What about me having a "townread" early on?

Why do you think he's relaxed? Why do you think he's interested?

And there is only 2 pages, what were you expecting?

I think you're making conversation for the sake of making conversation and trying to look like you're taking notice of things that aren't really there.

That's a scum charge, but you don't vote it.

VOTE: Drew

I like your vote, but your reasoning sounds really odd.

VOTE: drew

I didn't ask him for his read at all. You've either not bothered to read what I said or misconstrued it.

I asked how he came to the conclusion of relaxed and interested. Why? Because he drew a conclusion on a player that seemed off. So, it's sensible to ask.

The fact you are happy to follow a vote on 'reasoning [that] sounds really odd' without questioning the person for more info is indicative of your rash approach.

BTW, according to here, I should do the following:

The first school of thought is that you should claim immediately, ideally in your opening post. This ensures that the Cop will not waste an investigation on you. It becomes more likely that you will be lynched or shot by a Vigilante, however; otherwise, it would be too easy for Mafia to fakeclaim Miller as well. This is by far the most common way to play the role on mafiascum.net.

I guess I deviated a little from the norm, but let's get that out of the road.

I fully expect to be dead by day one. I do, however, intend to make sure my remaining time here is as profitable as possible.

So, if the lot of you would lay down your votes off me, we can hopefully gain additional insight on someone else, in the knowledge we have two definitive townies running around, which means there's only 11 left to scrutinise.

I would also encourage the town cop to investigate someone else, not me.

[Drew-Sta]

Sorry, dead by day two. I'm the obvious mafia kill, and I honestly don't think it's wise for me to try and 'fake it' to simply be a hero. Better to do my duty and help town.

And yes, I am.

[Drew-Sta]

... yeah, ok, fair call. Maybe I'll last a bit longer. I think the point I'm trying to make is I'm dead man walking.

It's late and I've been drinking. Cut me a little bit of slack.

[Drew-Sta]

I think I'd disagree with that, but that's a theory discussion I'm not really interested in at the moment.

Ok, one more question. Considering you're the one sayign we shouldn't be afraid of votes, how come you haven't put one down yet?

I’d rather wait to see everyone post. I also don’t feel compelled to yet. No-one has registered as particularly scummy.

[Drew-Sta]

Posts 48 and 55 gave me an impression you find me suspicious, am I wrong?

I think what you wrote wasn't particularly accurate. That's what I picked up on and highlighted. I notice you haven't responded to what I said.

I’d rather wait to see everyone post. I also don’t feel compelled to yet. No-one has registered as particularly scummy.

You said you need to poke and prod. That's what votes do at this stage.

Once again, as I've said before, I have no issue with the votes. I have an issue with the reason why they were made.

Funny enough i get town and scum reads with a few pages.
I'm not married to the reads but it help sort people out and keep notes on those im not town reading.
I really dont see why tanners views should be pucked apart especially when he asmiited it wasnt a strong read.
People have strong reads early on all the time. Even on page 2.

I have no problem with early reads. I have a problem with poor analysis.

Again, page 2 what did you expect with his analysis.
Your being picky about something that people usually interpret there on way.

TBH? Consistent approach.

In any case, stirring the pot to get reactions (which is my way of doing things) generally gets decent responses and allows for discussion. As we're having now

[Drew-Sta]

@drew: how long has it been since you played mafia?

Oh, forgot to respond to this.

Several years on this site. I play on another but it's more a bastard role site.

[Drew-Sta]

Sleep time for me, BTW. I’ll see you all in approx 7-8 hours.

[Drew-Sta]

/sigh

I’ve just woken up. I am miller.

I will be a semi useful lynch. Do it, and make sure you use the info properly.

I classify this as a shit lynch by stand by my statement that a shit lynch will tell you something.

[Drew-Sta]

*but stand by, not by stand by.

[Drew-Sta]

Oh, 2 Miller claims. lol that's brilliant.

Though I'd say not to rush with the Day. Mavs, how come you didn't claim first post?

pedit: I'm not sure. 2 Millers isn't impossible, but I guess it's more likely one of them is lying.

I’ll preface this with I think you’re town, post 67 picks Persivul over Drew where I feel scum wouldn’t pick this battle or push against a vote for Drew.

By why didn’t you ask Drew-Sta why he didn’t claim miller first post rather than claim it in 79 which was his 8th post of the game? Just curious.

I didn’t role claim as I hadn’t checked the wiki until that point.

I’ve honestly never played a Miller before.

[Drew-Sta]

Okay, what will your shit lynch tell us then?

Luca being AFK is of interest. Seems a good way not to get his hands dirty in the lynch then claim ignorance / that the lynch was shit.

I agree with Farside that UnaBomber's posts are beginning to smell. Their not being open to the possibility of two millers appears to me to be them accepting an easy way to lynch me to get to night.

I believe mav is also a miller (no need to claim, it is ludicrous to consider he's doing so to cover himself as a scum player). Thus, you have three townies cleared in a 13 player game. That makes narrowing down easier, and I'd look at those who are simply 'floating along' at this point as potential mafia.

I'm reading through page five. I'd just like to note that, while I only claimed on post 8, mav only claimed on post 2 and it was in response to my claim. He's using the fact I was waiting to see who came online. Now, by that thought process, I was waiting for everyone so I could role claim. The reality is everyone had posted well before I role claimed. I wasn't waiting to see if anyone would role claim it at all. I simply didn't read the wiki very quickly. I recognise that seems like a shit excuse but hey, telling the truth makes you look like an idiot sometimes.

[Drew-Sta]

@Drew-Sta: what’s your feelings on George Bailey?

I’m curious about his posts TBH. Which is why I made a huff about Tanner’s posts about him. It appears like buddying. Which would be very obvious if it was.

Georges posts from 1-5 were normal for game start.

6-8 appeared like he was justifying trains, as a form of pressure. I’m not against votes and while bad lynched aren’t good, they do tell us stuff. However, he seemed a little more blasé on it than I’d like.

[Drew-Sta]

That's why scum would put someone at L-2, to avoid the sus of hammering town.

Honestly, I feel like Scum would be the hesitant voter, for fear of looking scummy.

I'd be interested in a thing I've never seen or done before.
Feel free to call me a dummy dumb-dumb if it suits you, but

what if we all agree that Wake doesn't vote for anyone today?

Hear me out - we obviously want his input and reads throughout the day as much as possible, simply because he is the only conf.town in the game so far.
But we won't be able to lynch scum 100% of the time D1 anyway, even if we had three conf.townies.
So my point is, that

whoever we end up lynching D1, and whatever their flip might end up being, the wagon will only consist of unconfirmed players.

Does that make sense for anyone?

I can see why this sounds good on paper, but the fact that a confirmed town wont be spearheading the lynch makes the push less valuable. I think the whole point of the IC is that their word is much more valuable than a regular player.

Any reason why you chose to question farside and not PD? He unvoted first.

Because PD gave a brief reason for doing so, as Farside's was a naked vote.

Drew’s miller claim had to come after everyone had a chance to post assuming the miller would claim with their first post. If he’s got scum mates, then he KNOWS they’re not the miller and MUST ONLY wait for the townies to post without a claim to snatch up that role.

But Mavs, you pretty much did the same thing. You counter claimed him like 5 pages in. And It's not impossible to have two millers in the game. I don't really think that's a scum-trait. Plus, Drew even said there's probably gonna be a vig that shoots him. It's probably a better bet to let that happen tonight.

VOTE: Saladman

That’s a better post.

I would encourage the vig to shoot me straight up. It removes doubt, is a safe kill (you won’t hit another townie you might need) and allows you to better analyse the day where I have been alive.

IC is far better to keep alive as you always have a neutral and trusted voice.

[Drew-Sta]

@George Bailey: so you’d rather let scum!Drew-Sta off the hook and lynch someone who might be town rather than someone extremely likely to be scum? I think you should’ve just bus’ed him rather than try this damage control plan.

George Bailey/Drew-Sta and anyone have a guess on the third?

Also who said anything about a vig? We might not even have a vig in the game. One of you guys hasta be scum bulletproof for you to believe there’s a vig.

@PranaDevil: I had never considered a double scum miller fake claim. Damn!!!! Next time I’m scum I’m stealing that one. That’s brilliant! Alas, not clever enough to have thought of that for this to be the case here though

That’s one of the more irrational posts I’ve ever seen.

[Drew-Sta]

You can lynch me today if you need. I’m happy to be a martyr if you can’t settle on another townie.

Mav should be night 1 kill after, if that’s the case. Gives vig, if we have them, a chance to not kill a townie.

[Drew-Sta]

Or, oooooor, we lynch what is very probably scum, and let the possible Vig (which we have no proof of there being!) shoot in the other suspicious slots.

George, is your first reaction to a double Miller claim "oh that's not scum indicative" as opposed to "one of them is fucking lying"?

Answer me this. Why am I lying, but mav is not.

[Drew-Sta]

Because he's the counterclaim?

And all counterclaims are right?

[Drew-Sta]

I guess why I’m saying that is it is possible he’s also lying.

Look, I’m going to die. That’s fine. But at least consider the possibility of two millers.

[Drew-Sta]

Re George: Borderline Bastard™? I don't think I've ever even heard of something like that.

Re Drew: No. But it's much more likely the first person is the liar rather than the counterclaim. Hell, if he really wanted to get you lynched, he didn't even have to do that by claiming Miller and killing himself tomorrow! People were already suspecting you.

Sure. So if people were already suspecting me, why would I throw an obviously suspect role claim out there to make things worse? Seems I've attracted a whole lot more attention to myself with it, than leaving it be.

You're not looking at the intent of my posts here. I've not voted. Not even in RVS. Why would I, if I was scum, not try to throw you off the scent and WIFOM my way out of this? I've already said I expect to die very early. I know this. I want to make sure whomever I vote for, I'm convinced of who I think they are, so that when you people come back and analyse later, you might go 'Oh, Drew, the miller, he said X was someone he felt was mafia - let's try that'.

It's called trying to play for the town win, not my own survival (something townies do because they fear being lynched and only see survival as the testament to a good game played).

I don't deny I rocked the boat. That's what we're supposed to do though.

Because he's the counterclaim?

And all counterclaims are right?

No, but usually a counterclaim comes late in the game, not day one to a miller claim, which would lead to them being lynched day 2.

A scum counterclaiming usually happens in lylo or mylo.

Think about the bolded here...

Have you possibly conceived of the fact there might be two? I realise that's wildly crazy, but in this instance it will be shown that either there are two.

It is perfectly normal for the counterclaim to be treated credulously. Because usually there's only one miller. So what are you going to do when I flip town and conceive of there being two..?

I agree with Farside that UnaBomber's posts are beginning to smell. Their not being open to the possibility of two millers appears to me to be them accepting an easy way to lynch me to get to night.

Did I vote you? Nope, and you can bet yo sweet PM-flip that I didn't for a reason.
I'm all about discussion happening D1.
Something to chew on D2, and that's what we should be getting.

I was just interested in seeing who's willing to vote for you straight out the gate if they felt like it was an "OK" thing to do.

Haven't seen too many votes, and that might mean something in the long run.

Your analysis is poor, to say the least. Followed by this:

VOTE: Tanner <---- this right is far more likely to yield a scumflip.

I consider you a high chance of being scum.

I agree with Farside that UnaBomber's posts are beginning to smell. Their not being open to the possibility of two millers appears to me to be them accepting an easy way to lynch me to get to night.

Did I vote you? Nope, and you can bet yo sweet PM-flip that I didn't for a reason.
I'm all about discussion happening D1.
Something to chew on D2, and that's what we should be getting.

I was just interested in seeing who's willing to vote for you straight out the gate if they felt like it was an "OK" thing to do.

Haven't seen too many votes, and that might mean something in the long run.

OK, I do not see a world where we have two millers.
I did get some nasty flashbacks from a game where I was a Town-Universal Backup though, and I fought the "claimed Miller"-lynch until the end..
I believe that same game had a Doc and other useful stuff as well, and I got slapped with a Miller-tag starting from N2.

Anyhoo, I guess we are ready for the lynch now?
Don't think much of anything useful will come from the scumteam anymore, now that one of them is already caught red-handed?

These 2 thoughts do not line up.

I agree with your analysis.

[Drew-Sta]

Honestly I almost think George is Town for his spectacularly shitty defense of Drew if Drew ends up flipping red. Bussing as fast as possible is more in line of what I'd expect of his partners.

Prana, are you intentionally pushing the """contradiction"""?

Though I'll concede I'm also curious why Una finds me suspicious.

Why is George town? You have buddied him twice now. I want a stronger analysis on why you believe in him.

[Drew-Sta]

I might add, while I know George is right about me, his current behaviour is somewhat-buddying to me also.

[Drew-Sta]

Sure. So if people were already suspecting me, why would I throw an obviously suspect role claim out there to make things worse? Seems I've attracted a whole lot more attention to myself with it, than leaving it be.

Not quite. Right after you claimed Miller, 2 people unvoted. It only started acting as an attention attraction once there was a counterclaim, which you at the time didn't know would be.

Mate, scum throwing a hail mary like this after, what, five pages? You’ve got to be kidding.

[Drew-Sta]

@Tanner - far better analysis.

I wish I would be around to see your face when I flip town.

[Drew-Sta]

Sure. So if people were already suspecting me, why would I throw an obviously suspect role claim out there to make things worse? Seems I've attracted a whole lot more attention to myself with it, than leaving it be.

Not quite. Right after you claimed Miller, 2 people unvoted. It only started acting as an attention attraction once there was a counterclaim, which you at the time didn't know would be.

Mate, scum throwing a hail mary like this after, what, five pages? You’ve got to be kidding.

I don't know what to tell you. I'm trying to go through possible scenarios, but double Miller claim? It seems much more likely that one of the claims is lying.

It’s more likely we have an unusual set up.

Ya know, I really want to believe in the Innocent Child double Miller setup. That would be such a meme.

Yes. I think we’re on to a famous one.

Drew, are you currently thinking mavs is Town or scum?

No. I doubt very much mavs would counterclaim falsely. If he did, he could still claim miller after I flip, saying ‘Who would have thought it?’ Then believe he will skate through the game. I find that possibility extremely low. And if it is true, and he succeeds? He has balls the size of church bells then.

[Drew-Sta]

OK, so what are all the claimed roles so far please?

Drew-sta claimed Miller when he was under some pressure.
Mavs later CCed him.

Oh please, that was not pressure at all. I was what, 3, maybe four votes in? Not unusual at all. If I was in the verge of being lynched and claimed that then you’d have a point maybe.

I also have a provocative style of posting. It attracts attention. So I’m used to having heat on me.

[Drew-Sta]

Here are some of my thoughts on where we are

... That being said... and this may be a ludicrous idea, but it's in my head and I'd rather post it for others to chime in on. What if we don't have ANY millers? What if it's a double bluff from scum? We lynch one of them, the other coasts to victory under a "confirmed town" heading.

Of all the possibilities being thrown around, this one is the worst. I think a double bluff would be idiotic. The best move for town is to lynch/vig/otherwise kill BOTH of them. Any town that would let a claimed miller get through to the end of the game like that deserves to lose, in my mind.

166
I agree with farside here. Una does appear to be double-speaking here. Is it scummy? Hard to say, but, it's worth noting, I think.

As of now, my read for scumteam is una, george and drew. I'm sus of drew for obv reasons. I'm sus of george because of his spectacularly shitty defense for drew. Una is sus for defending george by pushing tanner. I think either Una or Drew were the bus target because of the quotes in 166.
Does anyone have the vote count on drew?

This post is just awful. It reeks of low effort. Null-read on salad right now, but, man, if you're going to post so infrequently, maybe put a BIT more effort into the posts when you do?

All that said, I accept the possibility that there are two millers, but, it doesn't seem very likely to me. I think it's way more likely that one of them (Drew, probably) is lying. Either way, like I said above, I think they both need to die, and as quickly as possible. Note though, that when I say "as quickly as possible" I mean in terms of game days, not necessarily meaning I think we should quick-lynch. I generally don't like quick-lynches without a damn good reason, and I think that there's value in discussion.

In that vein, I'm willing to vote Drew now, but, I don't want to put him too close to being lynched just yet, so I'm going to hold off on my actual vote until we get a vote count. If he's above L-2, I'll vote for him in a heartbeat.

@Mod, could we get a vote count please?

I can’t wait to flip town. The egg on peoples faces...

I don’t proclaim to be a brilliant player, but gosh, the completely retarded reasoning of ‘it’s totally unlikely, therefore impossible and Drew is lying’ reasoning is some of the worst I’ve ever seen.

I’ve advocated I die to help town get a smaller pool of people to scrutinise, but the lack of analysis is shocking, particularly on my posts.

[Drew-Sta]

All that said, I accept the possibility that there are two millers, but, it doesn't seem very likely to me. I think it's way more likely that one of them (Drew, probably) is lying.

I can’t wait to flip town. The egg on peoples faces...

I don’t proclaim to be a brilliant player, but gosh, the completely retarded reasoning of ‘it’s totally unlikely, therefore impossible and Drew is lying’ reasoning is some of the worst I’ve ever seen.

I feel like I should point out that the argument you claim I'm making is literally not the one I'm making. I never said "it's unlikely, therefore impossible" I said, it's unlikely, and so you lying is more likely. I know you have to defend yourself but, mischaracterizing other's arguments is maybe not the most effective way to do that...

You didn’t make that clear in your original post. Maybe be clearer, and then I won’t confuse your intentions.

What you’ve done (a form of gaslighting) is very effective at making a person look guilty, because you’re changing the past on them.

I’m not a fan of that behaviour and it stinks.

[Drew-Sta]

Just as an aside, I don't take things personally in game. I've seen gaslighting used effectively by mafia before, so I don't consider anything in game a personal thing etc. Play the game, and play hard

--

This is directed @Riabi:

You said this:

All that said, I accept the possibility that there are two millers, but, it doesn't seem very likely to me. I think it's way more likely that one of them (Drew, probably) is lying.

You accept the situation as unlikely. This means the following:

* You have a set view of the game set up, that you aren't willing to expand your mind to accept a different reality
* You don't believe me, and consider me a liar

I said this:

I can’t wait to flip town. The egg on peoples faces...

I don’t proclaim to be a brilliant player, but gosh, the completely retarded reasoning of ‘it’s totally unlikely, therefore impossible and Drew is lying’ reasoning is some of the worst I’ve ever seen.

... which is saying what I said in my two points above. Just differently.

You said:

I feel like I should point out that the argument you claim I'm making is literally not the one I'm making. I never said "it's unlikely, therefore impossible" I said, it's unlikely, and so you lying is more likely. I know you have to defend yourself but, mischaracterizing other's arguments is maybe not the most effective way to do that...

You are basically saying, I accept the two points as true, because the alternative doesn't make sense to me. And what I've said is such, but you've said something different.

I said:

You didn’t make that clear in your original post. Maybe be clearer, and then I won’t confuse your intentions.

What you’ve done (a form of gaslighting) is very effective at making a person look guilty, because you’re changing the past on them.

I’m not a fan of that behaviour and it stinks.

... which is me saying 'You've accepted a truth and are behaving as such. As is indicated in how you are treating situation. I'm calling you out on that, but you're suggesting I'm mischaracterising your argument. That is false.'

Can you understand now?

Also, open your mind to the possibility that what I'm saying is true. Who benefits from this confusion and focus on me?

[Drew-Sta]

The part I object to in your characterization of my argument is:

‘it’s totally unlikely, therefore impossible

I've never said it was impossible, and to interpret anything I've said as that is disingenuous at best, malicious at worst.

Then you go and add this:

* You have a set view of the game set up, that you aren't willing to expand your mind to accept a different reality

This is a terrible premise, and completely false. It's not a question of willingness at all. It's just that I find the likelyhood of there actually being two millers in the same game to be fleetingly small. I've considered your argument that you and mavs are both telling the truth, and, while I admit it is possible, I just find it far more likely that one of you is lying. From there, I consider which of the two of you is more likely to be lying, and I think that's you.

You are basically saying, I accept the two points as true, because the alternative doesn't make sense to me. And what I've said is such, but you've said something different.

Once again, this is false. Your argument does make sense to me, I just don't find it compelling. There's a big difference.

Why don't you stop trying to summarize what I'm saying and let me speak for myself?

It’s not a terrible premise. It’s a reality I’m trying to get you to conceive of because it IS what is happening.

You consider the likelihood of two millers as not applying to this situation. Therefore, it’s impossible for you to conceive of it being in play, and dealing with that scenario. I’m not misrepresenting or summarising your argument. I’m following it through to it’s conclusion.

Do you see that?

Tell me. What posts make you think I’m lying and why?

[Drew-Sta]

Knightmare, Una, Salad, Luca. They’re my scum picks.

Lynch me now.

Then look at them.

[Drew-Sta]

VOTE: UnaBombah

[Drew-Sta]

What if there are two millers?

[Drew-Sta]

When I show up as town, what will be your first response in the game eg what will you look to do?

[Drew-Sta]

Knightmare, Una, Salad, Luca. They’re my scum picks.

Lynch me now.

Then look at them.

Sure a person who's on v/la is your scum read lmao.

A person who is avoiding this issue. Yes.

I saw another person accuse Una of "double speaking", and like... are you people intentionally playing dumb?

Una has not been consistent.

[Drew-Sta]

Luca is always V/LA on weekends. That kinda push is disingenuous at best, downright insulting at worst.

How the fuck would I know that?

Far out...

[Drew-Sta]

You suggesting he does it always on weekends is what I mean.

[Drew-Sta]

Also Una buddying me is win win. He knows I’m not scum, and knows when I flip town he can claim he wasn’t part of the lynch.

[Drew-Sta]

You can lynch me today if you need. I’m happy to be a martyr if you can’t settle on another townie.

So you're that sure we couldn't lynch scum?

Not a serious question. Now that the lynch is AFAIC settled, everything from scum is wifom. But I thought the way he phrased that was interesting.

Writing this off is both shocking analysis and a clear and identifying statement that you're unable to consider a possibility you haven't set your mind on.

I guess why I’m saying that is it is possible he’s also lying.

Look, I’m going to die. That’s fine. But at least consider the possibility of two millers.

If he were "also lying," that would mean zero millers, not two.

This is foolish and poorly thought out.

Why don't you stop trying to summarize what I'm saying and let me speak for myself?

Yeah, that's what I was thinking reading that exchange. Drew's the one doing the gaslighting.

Explain why.

Drew-Sta (3)Persivul;mavsfan41;Knightmare491;

Drew is highly likely to be scum. He's highly likely to be the lynch. That means that everything coming from scum at this point is WIFOM. In my experience, that hurts town more than helps. We need more votes here.

I agree that scum will WIFOM here. About the smartest thing you've posted so far.

When I show up as town, what will be your first response in the game eg what will you look to do?

Scum claim.

Foolish response.

I still think that if there's a vig, he should definitely be the target tonight.

First, he's not going to be there tonight. A 2-miller setup is very unlikely, making him very likely to be scum.

Second, we don't even know that we have a vig.

Third, a vig should never shoot someone who's easily lynchable anyway.

I disagree with 3 completely. If players aren't sure and a player claims miller a vig shot on that player is the best thing for the town.

Drew-Sta (3)Persivul;mavsfan41;Knightmare491;

Drew is highly likely to be scum. He's highly likely to be the lynch. That means that everything coming from scum at this point is WIFOM. In my experience, that hurts town more than helps. We need more votes here.

You are scum!!!!
You are lucky I wanted to play with you this game, but man there is no way I find anything on this page town coming from you.

On a completely unrelated note, Unabomb in no longer on the top of my scum list.
Salad, Persivul and Knight.

Still waiting for a few people to post more before finalizing my list.

Explain your comment on Una.

You are scum!!!!
You are lucky I wanted to play with you this game, but man there is no way I find anything on this page town coming from you.

This is really lazy.

Everyone learns

info is good don't rush the lynch

in their first newbie game. I was on Drew before the claims. I'm mostly town read at this point. There's no incentive for scum!pers to rush the lynch here. As said, in my experience, extending a clear wifom situation generally doesn't help town.

Declaring yourself as town eh? So we should listen to you? Ridiculous.

And why were you on me before? Give me analysis. Stop throwing insults. You're playing foolishly. Do some proper analysis and explain yourself.

[Drew-Sta]

You are scum!!!!
You are lucky I wanted to play with you this game, but man there is no way I find anything on this page town coming from you.

This is really lazy.

Everyone learns

info is good don't rush the lynch

in their first newbie game. I was on Drew before the claims. I'm mostly town read at this point. There's no incentive for scum!pers to rush the lynch here. As said, in my experience, extending a clear wifom situation generally doesn't help town.

Well I can explain why everything read scummy that page.
The short version is that it reads fake. Each post come off with empty words and im feeling a lot of buddying coming from you.

@drew: this may sound mean but as unabomb continues to post im starting to see him as more of a vi type.

VI type? Sorry, it's been a while, so some acronyms lose me.

@Riabi: your 192 suggests lynching BOTH the claimed millers? Wtf? When Drew flips scum (aka he fake claimed miller) wouldn’t that basically pseudo confirm me as a miller? Lynching me next basically rids town of a mostly confirmed townie. By deciding to lynch me after Drew flips scum is implying it’s more likely that Drew and I are both scum fake claiming miller than the more likely scenario that there’s one miller in the game and I was assigned the role.

Actually, when I flip town you will look like scum. In good faith, and the belief that you aren't stupid enough to CC as scum, I'm trying to get people to consider the fact you also are town so you don't get fucking lynched D2. You can thank me when I flip, but for fucks sake use your head here and

consider

their reaction when I flip town and what it means for you. If you are miller, which I believe you are, that means the pool of options is 10 in D2 for lynching (or less, pending who is killed at night, if there are kills), and that works in towns favour since you and the IC become the only two voices of neutrality that town can trust.

Writing this off is both shocking analysis and a clear and identifying statement that you're unable to consider a possibility you haven't set your mind on.

I've considered it and dismissed it. Based on my experience with the normal queue, it's very unlikely that there would be two millers. Other people beat me to it, but I actually find a zero-miller scum gambit more likely than that. People do dumb shit to try to win scummies.

Why don't you stop trying to summarize what I'm saying and let me speak for myself?

Yeah, that's what I was thinking reading that exchange. Drew's the one doing the gaslighting.

Explain why.

Sure. He makes a judgment based on probabilities - two millers is low probability. That's fine, as most decisions by town in this game are judgments of probability. But, you rephrase it to imply that he's saying two millers is an impossibility, or that he refuses to consider the possibility. That's gaslighting.

Now

you're

mischaracterising my argument and twisting what is said.

I'm saying because he cannot conceive of two millers in the game, he considers it an impossibility (because he believes the probability is far too low to consider it).

You are doing a great job of aggressively trying to get me lynched in five minutes flat.

@farside, why are you viewing Drew as town? I assume as much as you viewed persivul as scum seemingly due to his vote on Drew.

(Also, I've spotted something rather interesting that I wish to bring up, but only after farside's response)

*puts on crazy/wifom hat*

I don't see scum claiming that early with little pressure. To be fair I was scum reading Drew from the start too. His post to Tanner about George was a bit much. His complaint about the votes was hypocritical and bias to say the least. But with manvs claim he believed in it and he even talked about it here with in regards to wifom: viewtopic.php?p=11747814#p11747814.
He could have stayed quiet after the CC or he could have OMGUS voted manvs as scum.
Scum is going to know they are up shit creek with a CC and get defensive. Instead he is still scum hunting. questing people and know he will be lynched.
if he flips scum I would give him a high five for the deceiving so well.

Just make sure after night, if you're still alive, that you consider all possibilities. It's clear we're not in a 'normal' game per se.

I am town. I know I'm dead man walking. I'm stalling as long as I can to help force scum to post so we can see what they say, and you guys have a chance on D2 to analyse more, rather than less.

This is really simple.

1. Two millers in a mini normal is extremely unlikely.
2. We had a miller claim.
3. We had a counter claim.
4. We lynch the first claim today.
5. If that lynch flips miller, we lynch the counter claim tomorrow.

Let's not overthink this.

Except thinking is exactly what town should do and the fact you're into turbo-lynches makes me consider you are suspicious. The above is literally anti-town. Why? You never get a chance to see what mafia is saying about a lynch.

This situation - a D1 counterclaim - is what you dream of as town. Then when you finally get it, people insist on screwing it up.

Screwing it up? Now you're berating people for screwing it up, Mr Turbo-Lynch?

Good gracious. I'm dead. I get it. But not scum hunting during a day phase is legit anti-town. There would surely be more than one scum, right? So why not take the time to try and find out who that is?

[Drew-Sta]

Whoops...... sorry about that! You both have similar avatars. It was an honest mistake.

PERSIVUL’S 273 & 274 are on point. Thanks for the correction.

Lynching what is

almost

certainly scum day 1 is a blessing for town.

And this is what I'm trying to tell you. The fact you're not certain is why I'm trying to get you to consider the possibility that you aren't the only miller in this game.

[Drew-Sta]

@Drew-Sta: you’re right. If you do actually flip miller, I’m gonna be lynched tomorrow no doubt about it. I agree with that 100%. I think it’s waaay more likely that you’re scum who fake claimed miller than there being 2 millers in the game. We shall see (hopefully). If you do flip miller (I don’t think this is the case) day 2 I’m gonna be like “so there were two millers in the game, huh” right as EVERYONE votes for me. And then I flip miller as well. And town is like “well oh fuck.” But thankfully I’ll have been lynched and don’t hafta deal with town in day 3 being like wtf do we do now?! My first post in the dead thread when I’m lynched day 2 after you flip miller today will be “whoops, my bad.” Deal?

Mate, deal. I'll make sure the beer and dorito's are ready and we can have a good ole lol. Cause our mod has had a chuckle at our expense.

[Drew-Sta]

You are scum!!!!
You are lucky I wanted to play with you this game, but man there is no way I find anything on this page town coming from you.

This is really lazy.

Everyone learns

info is good don't rush the lynch

in their first newbie game. I was on Drew before the claims. I'm mostly town read at this point. There's no incentive for scum!pers to rush the lynch here. As said, in my experience, extending a clear wifom situation generally doesn't help town.

Well I can explain why everything read scummy that page.
The short version is that it reads fake. Each post come off with empty words and im feeling a lot of buddying coming from you.

@drew: this may sound mean but as unabomb continues to post im starting to see him as more of a vi type.

VI type? Sorry, it's been a while, so some acronyms lose me.
?

Spoiler:

Village idiot

. The nice way to say it is he reads a little green behind the ears.

Mans: If there are 2 millers in the game, I don't want the lets lynch the shit out of it without a discussion and if I live to day 2 (which I should given the IC claim) I would fight off your lynch if Drew is town.
I would recommend lynching you before lylo or believe a vig may be out there to get any wifom out of this game.

Ahh... *taps nose*

That would explain things.

Re the second part with respect to what you've said, that's exactly what I've been advocating for (consideration that this possibility is actually happening) so we can utilise this period for future analysis and scum hunting.

This is really simple.

1. Two millers in a mini normal is extremely unlikely.
2. We had a miller claim.
3. We had a counter claim.
4. We lynch the first claim today.
5. If that lynch flips miller, we lynch the counter claim tomorrow.

Let's not overthink this.

I really don't like this from Persivul he's basically not trying to figure anyone out and just lynch the miller claim and if drew is town and manvs is town then isn't that more of a scum benefit?

I agree and said as much.

[Drew-Sta]

You are doing a great job of aggressively trying to get me lynched in five minutes flat.

No, I'm doing a frustratingly poor job of that. I wish I were doing a great job, i.e. more people were voting you.

Tunnel vision is really bad. You are not showing yourself to be an asset for town.

I really don't like this from Persivul he's basically not trying to figure anyone out and just lynch the miller claim and if drew is town and manvs is town then isn't that more of a scum benefit?

As said, repeatedly, I see no value in the information derived from a clear wifom situation.

It's clear you are adding nothing to the conversation at all.

Persi, I agree the Miller claims have to be resolved (and plan on voting Drew today), but do you think there's benefit to rushing it? Since we still have two practically contentless slots?

Yes, I do, as I've said. I think the wifom potential actually muddies the waters.

Actually, it gives the chance to see what people think.

Right now, I see what you, Tanner, farside and others are thinking, how you approach the situation and whether you're a thinker.

Frankly, you'd be the easiest person to manipulate if I was scum. All I'd need to do is get you trained on someone and you'd ignore everything else.

[Drew-Sta]

Persi, I agree the Miller claims have to be resolved (and plan on voting Drew today), but do you think there's benefit to rushing it? Since we still have two practically contentless slots?

I know this wasn't directed at me, but, I want to comment on this idea. I'm normally all for discussion and getting as much info as possible out there. But, at this point, the thread seems to have devolved into the ravings of a lunatic madman, to the point where I don't even read Drew's posts anymore. I just don't care what he has to say. Are you finding any value in his posts at this point?

/sigh

If this is your attitude, then can we all just get this over with?

[Drew-Sta]

Look into Una (to confirm if he's VI or not), Salad and Knightmare.

George trying to clear me looks like buddying. Work out if they're scum.

Pers tunnels. Be careful of that. Tanner I've not made my mind up on.

I trust farside right now.

Don't lynch mav when I turn up town. Try to keep IC and mav alive, as they'll provide you with a neutral view.

I'm off. Enjoy the game. I'll be back to have a beer later.

[Drew-Sta]

He could have stayed quiet after the CC or he could have OMGUS voted manvs as scum.
Scum is going to know they are up shit creek with a CC and get defensive. Instead he is still scum hunting. questing people and know he will be lynched.
if he flips scum I would give him a high five for the deceiving so well.

He had to make a choice, either he argues that mavs is scum and this is a ridiculous ballsy play or he argues that there are 2 millers in the game.
If it was me, I'd choose the latter too because it's slightly easier to scare town into believing it cuz they'll lose 2 days if it's true etc etc. He's not scum hunting, he's just questioning people who are voting him and defending himself. Plus he's posting walls whenever he can to make the thread annoying to read.

Hard to scum hunt when everyone is hammering you.

Hard to do anything but question when you keep getting told you're something, but you're trying to convince others it is different.

The posting walls is harsh but symptomatic of my posting style.

[Drew-Sta]

@knightmare - I've also tried to do some analysis. You're just ignoring that I have done this.

[Drew-Sta]

@Drew if you are actually town, you should realise the situation we are in. Put yourself in our shoes, if one person claimed miller and another person CCed them. How likely is it that you won't lynch the first person who claimed to be miller?

I think that is exactly what I've tried to do. I've argued that my lynch is necessary to ensure town can understand the game set up better. What I've tried to do is get people to consider that I'm right, and try to work out what that means.

Sure, I could have done that better. But I've never once suggested I survive. I've simply argued people consider the possibility then go from there.

Conversely, put yourself in my shoes. I've essentially been lynched for trying to play pro-town. And called a liar. Amongst other things.

[Drew-Sta]

A person who is avoiding this issue. Yes.

This is kind of a weird attack on someone being V/LA.

Activity is almost never Alignment indicative.

It seemed to be a good way to wash their hands of the issue. Someone later corrected me to tell me that this player is V/LA every weekend.

I own the mistake.

[Drew-Sta]

@mav - when I flip green, will you offer yourself up as D2 lynch barring unforseen cop information that suggests another scum target?

[Drew-Sta]

Also, @mav - why now are you considering the possibility of two millers, right at the tail end of the day? What has changed your mind?

[Drew-Sta]

@mav - nice to see you come around to this way of thinking and the fact you think I'm contributing.

I've also suggested George is buddying me. You might want to go look at that 178.

I also think Tanner is buddying George (177) and I consider the reasons for Tanner suggesting George is town are not well founded.

/cue Tanner throwing me insults.

Also, mav, you haven't answered 356

[Drew-Sta]

What town would hope to achieve with your lynch is rule out your CC as a scum tactic, mate. That's what they would want to know.

You gotta realise when I flip town, you'll be public enemy number one. So what are you going to do to benefit town in that situation?

I've accepted the best thing for town right now is to lynch me. It exposes something of the game set up that will benefit their decision making moving forward.

I personally also think the IC needs to be taking more of a leadership role here, as they're the only one town can trust.

[Drew-Sta]

@farside22 - didn't realise I'd played a game with you over 6 years ago.

Mini1591. Reading through that steaming pile of shit that was D1 brings back some memories.

[Drew-Sta]

@mav: Do you think, given your future status as Shrodinger's town (BTW, I very much like that phrase), you should push for your own lynch to ensure town does not have such confusion moving forward?

[Drew-Sta]

I might add, while I know George is right about me, his current behaviour is somewhat-buddying to me also.

Drew persistently pleads with people to consider there might be two millers, but then immediately throws shade at the only two who do consider this (George and Una), which seems strange to me.

Farside considers it. Even mavs is now open to it. It took several days for them to get there though, which is what I believed should be the case. Tanner and Pers have not accepted it. I don't think Pers reaction is quite right (he's tunnelled) but it is consistent at least with what I'd expect.

Both George and Una accepted the situation without any bargaining. I expected to have to basically shovel for the remainder of D1. They accepted it with ease. Their response was highly unusual. I consider the situation an accidental reaction test. I don't think their reactions stack up. Hence my skepticism. Why do I not think their reactions stack up? A double miller claim would not surprise or make mafia react, as they want townies lynched and this is an excellent way for that to happen. In fact, I imagine mafia are high-fiving right now, knowing I'm the easiest D1 ever.

[Drew-Sta]

Why does drews post bother you?
How do you get to that conclusion based on tanners comment.

Drew just seems to have accepted their fate. Its just almost sad that they are giving up as a caught scum though there is no real issue with it. Knowing this couldn't mav just be a backup as well for Mafia I believe I has saw it in the Normal list.
Sorry I'm not one for normals a lot of the time and its just something I look at.

Reading back Ill take the comment about tanner comes across as scum hunting with the exception of the push onto Drew but then again Drew is looking like a fish out of water at the moment. Well rather has been for a while in this game.

And how exactly was I supposed to react to mav’s CC?

[Drew-Sta]

You could not flail like a fish and actually try to have solved the game or at least looked at it from a different point of view. The WIFOM hasn't really sat well.

I didn’t flail. And I did try to solve it. Did you even read what I posted?

[Drew-Sta]

/cue Tanner throwing me insults.

Have I insulted you at any point? If so, I apologize, that was not my intention.

I haven’t an issue with what is said in game.

I make the statement because I believe you and Pers are playing the person and tunnelled completely on me.

Someone else accusing me of walls is amusing. You want analysis, but when I do, it is claimed I WIFOM or simply post confusing things.

[Drew-Sta]

@ George and Drew: why are you guys playing with different miller rules for Drew (saying he should be vig’ed or the obv NK) and me (pushing for my own lynch day 2 seemingly regardless of the Drew flip)?

What? I’ve claimed I must die in this lynch. The delay is simply evidence gaining.

That’s a direct lie by you.

[Drew-Sta]

@mav: Do you think, given your future status as Shrodinger's town (BTW, I very much like that phrase), you should push for your own lynch to ensure town does not have such confusion moving forward?

Day 2, nah. Before lylo, sure I suppose. Let’s see what the numbers are and how many scum are left before deciding what day.

IF you flip miller, my lynch day 2 would put town 1 mislynch in day 3 from a lylo situation in day 4 as days 1-3 would result in mislynches

IF you flip scum, that would give town an extra day before lylo and therefore my day 2 lynch isn’t necessary at that point.

The biggest question I have about the possibility of two millers is: why would scum!Drew fake claim miller? My possible answers are:
1) what I said in 107. You believed that miller would claim first post and when everyone had posted and no one claimed, you thought it was safe to claim
2) you said “fuck it” and claimed hoping there wasn’t one in the game BUT if there was, suggest the possibility of a two miller setup

Number 2 is too risky cause even with you throwing the idea of a double miller setup, you must’ve known you’d be fucked if you got CC’ed. Even if you decided to do this thinking the reward outweighed this risk, you must’ve known what a miller claim would result in. Hell, everyone seems to believe mine (if you think I’m lying, vote now) but still some want me lynched day 2.
Number 1 is the more likely scenario but although I very much believed this to be the case, it seems weird for you to post that far into the game assuming a miller would’ve come forward with 4 players at one post. Too much risk.

I don’t have an ideal reason scum!Drew fake claims miller unless you believed it to be a premature last resort to throw off the pressure you were receiving but at page 5, it seems far too soon. But post 81 is just icky. It seems weird. And now that I think of it, you and George are the same aren’t you? Why does 81 say you’ll be the obv NK but I should push for my own lynch day 2? Wtf?

Both of you have this same theory that Drew should be taken out at night (George saying you should be vig’ed) and you’re saying you should targeted by scum BUT me, I should be lynched day 2.

Oh now I’m starting to definitely think you’re both scum.

This is an utterly bizarre post.

[Drew-Sta]

Sorry, dead by day two. I'm the obvious mafia kill, and I honestly don't think it's wise for me to try and 'fake it' to simply be a hero. Better to do my duty and help town.

And yes, I am.

Why have you stated that I should push for my day 2 lynch? The above applies to miller!Drew, shouldn’t it apply to me?

I’m suggesting I die. It’s the only way to clear this situation. If I manage to survive D1, which I won’t (and shouldn’t) I’ll probably get NK’d as it puts pressure on you. WIFOM I know but a clear and sensible move by mafia.

[Drew-Sta]

Drew, I'm not tunnelled. The reality is, in the vast vast majority of cases (and maybe all of them, but we don't know) there is either 1 Miller in game, or zero Millers in game. And what is more likely? That this is that exact one in a who-knows-how-many games where there are two Millers, with the reviewers knowing what shitfest it would cause, or that one of the Millers is lying? It has to get resolved.

pedit: Drew claimed Miller, mavs then also claimed Miller. That's all so far claims-wise.

So when I flip town, what are you going to do?

[Drew-Sta]

Sorry, dead by day two. I'm the obvious mafia kill, and I honestly don't think it's wise for me to try and 'fake it' to simply be a hero. Better to do my duty and help town.

And yes, I am.

Miller!Drew - as the miller, I’m the NK. Don’t worry about me guys

@mav: Do you think, given your future status as Shrodinger's town (BTW, I very much like that phrase), you should push for your own lynch to ensure town does not have such confusion moving forward?

Also miller!Drew - as the miller, mavs you should push for your own lynch come day 2

This is weird coming from an actual miller!Drew.

Yeah ok. Whatever. You’re gonna look really stupid after I’m lynched.

[Drew-Sta]

@Drea: there’s two miller claims. The issue I have is that you and George seem to have different resolution ideas.
For you: NK’ed by mafia (your 81) or vig’ed (George’s 144 at the bottom). Either way, both are saying no worries about Drew’s miller, night actions will resolve that one
For me: I should be proactive and push for my own lynch day 2 (your 356 and has been mentioned in subsequent posts) and George’s 352 but his is a little more complicated. He pushes the very real possibility of two millers but seems to suggest if you flip miller that I should be lynched day 2. This would suggest I faked my CC and there are NOT two millers which is a clear contradiction from the handful of posts suggesting that exact scenario.

Shouldn’t both millers have a similar resolution? Why should I be proactive in securing my own lynch day 2 but your resolution will come via night actions. In fact, you suggest you’re the obvious kill but me, I won’t be the obvious kill? And the longer I stick around, the worse off town is. Shouldn’t that also apply to you? And shouldn’t you have stated that somewhere? This just strikes me as you made up town reaction to a miller claim then when presented with another miller claim, you seemed to have altered your course significantly.

It’s almost like you read what I write, then twist and turn it to make it say something different.

153 was me overtly stating I was a clear town. I suggested vig if we have one can take you out NK1 as it resolves the issue of people wondering if you’re lying.

I’ve advocated for you to survive D2 in 294. I’m trying to suggest to you that you are gonna get slammed D2 and what are you going to do about it? You’re not reading or hearing what I’m saying at all.

[Drew-Sta]

Should read ‘ 153 was me overtly stating I was a clear lynch option.’

[Drew-Sta]

Thanks for the game guys. I'll be watching closely. Go team. I hope you're not scum farside - I'll lose hope in humanity if you are.

Someone clinch it and put me out of my misery.

I'll get the beer and Doritos ready

[Drew-Sta]

And I was asking Farside about her earlier "what would happen if Drew flipped Green" because I wanted to know her commitment to the impossibility of a double Miller.

I can’t believe I’m saying this... but might there be two millers?

For this exact reason. Oh, so now it's a possibility? I have a bad feeling this will flip green after this backpedaling. But only one way to find out.

With mav's last few posts, I do wonder if he is scum throwing a massive hail mary. I doubt it, but it's possible.

[Drew-Sta]

And I believe that because mavs is desperately making a case for his ongoing life despite the ambiguity he poses from a town-loyalty point of view.

If people are completely against two millers, then when I flip town, the same scrutiny needs to apply to him. The same arguments used to lynch me remain when I flip town and he is (presumably) alive D2. Which is why I keep saying if I die, he should be NK'd as it will clear that problem up for town without losing a day.

In saying that, I doubt scum will kill him (if he is actually town) as they can hit another townie and likely get mavs lynched D2 without much effort.

So, all over to you guys. Enjoy that little Rubik's Cube!

[Drew-Sta]

Yes, yes I was.

Enjoy peeps! I look forward to watching this pan out.

[Drew-Sta]

Farside is the only one I felt comfortable with.

[Drew-Sta]

Pers has some merit in what he said. I think he just couldn't consider that I would be miller and what that potentially mean - scum CC'ing or two-miller game.

Put Mav's under pressure. He needs to be critically looked at. I'm not convinced he's scum, but it's quite possible.

[Drew-Sta]

Put Mav's under pressure. He needs to be critically looked at. I'm not convinced he's scum, but it's quite possible.

This I fully agree with.
If mavs really went for a Miller-CC as scum here, he's a fking legend.

....but deserves rope all the same.

Legend indeed

He's prob trolling.

Nope. Not trolling at all.

[Drew-Sta]

Said it before and I'll say it again...

What will you do when I flip town?

is a scum claim. It's one of the oldest tricks in the book. I used it in my very first scum game here. It didn't work then, and it's still scummy af now. Tomorrow is when we deal with what we'll do tomorrow. Like the vig discussion, it's just a distraction from what's going on now.

+1

Ill agree with this it's even used as a gambit in newbie games among others.

Also I thought IC's were normally announced at the start unless its some weird role where they can have mod confirmed status later or something but doesn't make sense for this game.

Drew you with your reads there was nothing substantial to gain from it. You see farside as a town read with not much on the rest of the player base.

That’s either a lie by omission, an outright lie or you haven’t read the thread or what I’ve said properly. All three are shit.

[Drew-Sta]

George buddied me.

Mavs is either outright town or the ballsiest scum player on this site.

Pers is ok, I think.

Panda and Knightmare have questions. I read Knightmare as scum IMHO.

Una might be VI but reads scummy to to me.

Pran and Riabi went mostly quiet after the CC. Riabi’s refusal to talk due to my walls (apparently) was not the reaction I expected.

That’s all I got.

[Drew-Sta]

Oh, and Tanner reaction seemed normal.

[Drew-Sta]

Although the fact Tanner knew why Luca was VLA does strike me as odd.

[Drew-Sta]

I’m honestly not trolling.

[Drew-Sta]

I know some scum like to keep claiming Town even after the hammer falls. And it's more for my own sanity of "there can't be two Millers... right?"

Mate, there might not be two millers, but you’ve just lynched one.

[Drew-Sta]

I know some scum like to keep claiming Town even after the hammer falls. And it's more for my own sanity of "there can't be two Millers... right?"

1 for 1 isn't something I see right from the start of a game. I'm not going to throw it out the door and say keep manvs, but I think players need to talk more about scum reads and those saying they would just lynch manv after need to explain more the wifom the set up.

I think you need to work out who actually debated during the day. I can’t see scum putting effort into the lynch after the CC. They’d have coasted.

[Drew-Sta]

Technically I haven't lynched anyone, I wasn't on your wagon. c:

The issue remains that double of any role in a game is dubious at best (other than obviously roles like VT or Masons), and especially Millers since it was very very likely at least one of them would claim early. That's almost guaranteed one mislynch + either a possible investigate shot going there or an additional mislynch. None of it makes sense.

But scum counterclaiming a Miller claim Day 1 is also such a ??? play. That's why I'm saying I still have that tiny glimmer of hope Drew is simply trolling. I don't want to deal with the headache afterwards if he's not.

I’ll bring you a couple of Panadol and a beer, because you’re about to have a migraine.

[Drew-Sta]

Drew, no matter your flip, you're a fun guy. Sorry we couldn't play together longer.

I really appreciate that comment

[Drew-Sta]

[Drew-Sta]

Booooo my shit posting abilities.

[Drew-Sta]

There wasn't a traitor. The setup was a town mindfuck.

Why the ascetic whatever it was?

A trap, for the person having it because claiming Ascetic is ok but claiming Encryptor is a death wish(and you don`t need to claim Encryptor if you are an Ascetic)

I think this is where the set up fails.

It’s effectively a normal game you made into a puzzle, and for a puzzle to be understood, you need to have a source of information.

Frankly, I’m not upset but genuinely see where Pers is coming from.

The set up never favoured a town win. For instance, two millers forced the cop to investigate one and rendered the rest of the game a mind fuck. Having two millers in the first place makes it a borderline bastard.

Not having a go at you, but just calling out the issues.

The game set up is one of those ‘sounds great when discussed by mods’ but never had any reality check of ‘how will this be to play?’

Just my thoughts.

[Drew-Sta]

Do you think that this game was not normal enough, then?

I would argue it wasn't normal at all.

Do you think that this game was not normal enough, then?

Yes. I started a thread in MD proposing that named townies not be allowed in normals.

Normal is defined for this site, and you were within those definitions, but consider normal usage of "normal." If you were describing mafia roles to someone new to the game, wouldn't you say that town encryptor normally implies the existence of a neighborizer? Or miller normally implies the existence of a cop? I would.

The definition of normal is wrong, IMHO.

That should tell you something.

Yeah that it was normal by name, but not by effect.

Yep

I hope, to absolute fuck, that your next actual mini normal is normal.

10 town, 3 scum, all vanilla.
Or pick one of the newbie formats to use.
Or just use watcher and tracker instead of a cop, and a jailkeeper instead of a doc or something.

But games like this one? Please don't ever run a game like this ever again. Normal should be relatively predictable and... normal. Not totally bastard and unpredictable.

100%.

[Drew-Sta]

so this setup is getting a lot of flak. i think its fine.
i dont agree that the rolecop is a trap...it can conftown one of the millers.
thats actually really powerful.
if anything i think this setup looks hard for scum being 11:2, an ic and a few other town roles.
i dont have an issue with double miller. i think its fine to have duplicate roles other than vt.

I feel like you've completely ignored everything said.

Double miller is a trap.

Rolecop simply clears a miller, which means you out the cop, out the miller and if that happens by D2 (which is did in this game) you've lynched a miller, cleared a miller, used a role cop on a miller, and have an IC (which likely dies N1). That gives scum easy pickings for N2 / N3 kills, and throws out all NK analysis completely.

D1 lynch is not valid, as it's a mislynch on a miller, and the D2 is likely a crap shoot.

So no. Coming from someone who played the game, you're IMHO wrong.