Mini Normal 2141: The World of Tomorrow [Game over!]

[ready2rock]

Well I was like "oh maybe my game will start soon lemme check before I go to sleep" and turns out there's 9 pages whoops

...

RQS is better.

Why not ask the questions yourself then?

What is everyone's experience playing Mafia here?

Played on here and another forum quite a few years ago, then decided to come back earlier this year because I missed it. Did a newbie game to get myself back into the swing of things and now here we are!

Anything of more substance than that will have to wait until it's not 4 AM and I actually have reading comprehension.

[ready2rock]

OK hey everyone

-Overall thoughts on votato are that I don't love some of the things he's saying, for instance, I find it kind of amusing how in post 80 he's talking about how there's "so many votes to place" and that he's suspicious of a ton of people, then a few pages later keeps repeatedly insisting that it's way too early to determine anything. Also not a fan of 301 when he misinterprets what puppy is saying. On the other hand, his overall style and tone feels too abrasive and overly defensive, which I feel like would be really bad for scum to do this early. Not sure what to make of him atm.

-Agreed on Quick v Blair being TvT

-Do agree that more scum may be hiding among the more inactive, and yes I realize that's coming from me leave me alone it's been a long day and I'm tired

-Among active people, I think my biggest suspicion is on VP, as he seems to be trying to jump on minor more obvious things people say

pedit: OK was about to vote and wanted to look for the last vote count first and 2 new votes on VP happened, brb gonna go count

[ready2rock]

OK so I can't read today and there's only 1 vote on VP, so let's make it 2

VOTE: VP Baltar

[ready2rock]

I think some three of the most non active people voting baltar shows that he is town

nah

Game is just over 24 hours old

[ready2rock]

Also Blair thank you for the tl;dr of the last 5 pages

[ready2rock]

@Umlaut: Does scum have daytalk?

DENIED.

That is WAY too many to "show you are Town" so...

VOTE: Nauci

I don't buy this line of reasoning, I can't honestly see a scum!Nauci somehow thinking she's so clever by oh so subtly slipping out a towntell

[ready2rock]

Possibly, I suppose I'll revise and say that I don't think it's any more likely to come from scum trying to plant the idea than town trying to determine gamestate

For the record I lean slight town on her in general, and I don't think this affects that read either way

[ready2rock]

Oh, I forgot to include Nauci into my analysis. It looks like she is exactly tied with you for Scummy behavior. (Yes, I have actually done math for this game.)

Then why switch your vote off her?

[ready2rock]

OK some questions for VP

1) You said early on in the thread that you didn't like puppy talking about blair's inactivity. Did that actually affect your read one way or the other, since you had your vote on them at the time? And thoughts on puppy now?

2) Since you asked for the case on Blair (336) and since then a lot of discussion has happened between her and quick. Thoughts on Blair now?

3) Do you still think there's value in pressuring votato more at this stage?

[ready2rock]

@ready - What makes you think Blair vs Quick is TvT? I know Puppy mentioned a reason for it earlier but do you agree with what he said or do you have your own for it?

It's partially out of my reads of them being town before they started their back and forth, then when they started their discussion with each other the way they were pushing each other felt genuine on both ends

[ready2rock]

So your case on me revolves around me misreading the vote count? That's pretty flimsy, which to me strengthens my case that you latch onto minor flimsy mistakes that people make.

Here's my timeline, I reread the thread and posted my thoughts on the game as a whole at that moment, voicing my suspicion of VP among other things. In that time, there were almost 10 new posts made, including both votes on VP. Since I wanted to get my post out there before even more happened, and I hadn't payed a ton of attention to a specific number of votes in the meantime, I wanted to go back and double check that I wasn't putting you at L-1 or anything. When I went back and read, I realized that I had read a vote on you and someone else quoting a vote on you as 2 votes, hence why I was saying that I was the 2nd vote. But now that I'm rereading again today, I realize I was right the first time and didn't see votato's vote in double checking

I don't understand what the difference would be between me being 2nd or 3rd on the wagon?

Also, is me being scum dependent on votato being scum, or the other way around? If one is town, is the other still scum?

@Blair My read on quick is slight town, though I find some of the way he's been responding to some people quite unhelpful. He explained his thought process in a lot of detail to me last night, but then to other people say that he doesn't see the point of trying to explain. I also think he's gonna be the hardest to read for me, so I don't want to push anything on him day 1 anyways

[ready2rock]

When did I do that? In either game? Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by "too early to participate"

[ready2rock]

Newbie 1981 was my previous game @Quick and anyone else who was looking for it

[ready2rock]

Reason was I saw 2 votes in Pedit, and was worried that there were other votes that might've happened pages ago that I missed in my initial readthrough. I wasn't worried if I missed 1 or 2 votes 5 pages ago, but with 2 votes added that quickly, I wanted to triple check that I hadn't somehow missed a bunch of votes.

Believe me or don't, but those 2 votes on you didn't exist when I was drafting up my initial post

If people want to say they've caught me in a mistake they're right, but what's the scummy intention here? To manipulate people into taking pressure off votato? But you seem to think I'm scum regardless of votato's alignment. To make it seem like I'm not a certain place on the wagon and manipulate what people think the vote count was? So you think I saw that I was 3rd on the wagon, held off on voting to double check, confirmed that, then decided to do it anyway and lie about it to avoid looking scummy about it? Wouldn't scum just not put down the vote if you think I cared so much about not being 3rd?

[ready2rock]

When did I do that? In either game? Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by "too early to participate"

My read on GL is neutral right now. I think the way he's playing the game is good, but that makes it more difficult for me to be able to read him one way or the other. Need to look at him in iso at some point once there's more to go on.

GL had had 5 posts out of 100 or so already and 9000 total so it seems to me he had more than enough content to have an opinion on and, as you are now, you were looking for an excuse to lurk.

Also, based on your use of terms like "hammer", "RVS", "wagon", and "mylo" it seems that you have played mafia in other forums before and are trying to feign ignorance.

So what are you comparing that post to in this game? The point I was saying there is about being careful with saying that agreeing with someone's points = town, which doesn't have to do with inactivity or "being too early"

I've said my mafia experience in my first post of this game. I've played one game in the past 5 years and it's that one. Played a fair amount a long time ago and that's how I'm familiar with the terms

[ready2rock]

So you think my strategy to fly under the radar was to try some gambit with the vote count?

My inactivity at the start of this game it’s just that I didn’t know that it started until it was already in page 9, and needed to play catch-up. Again, you can believe that or not

[ready2rock]

Ah yes, all part of my master plan from 10 years ago to be able to lurk in this game

Not going to entertain this point any further

[ready2rock]

@ready2rock: in 403 you mention votato and imply he’s scummy more than he’s town, but then do backtrack that a little. Any thoughts on him now? Also, why place the vote on VP Baltar vs votato when voting in 409 after previously believing votato scum and not even expressing an opinion on VP Baltar previously or even when you placed your vote?

I think if you read back my post you'll see that my read on him was pretty much neutral. I'd basically said that I wasn't a big on his style out the gate, but I'm not sure that scum would be so abrasive this early (e.g. his "fuck you" post). I also think his posts have gotten a bit better as the game has progressed, including since I've made that post, though still hit and miss on how strong his reasoning is.

So yeah, some good, some bad, overall neutral

My overall point about VP is that I think he's mostly the one who I think has been going for the low hanging fruit in the way that people are accusing votato of doing

@Quick Any more specific reasoning to share behind your townread on VP?

[ready2rock]

You know what, I can get on board with this

UNVOTE:
VOTE: NoPowerOverMe

I think his cases in general have been very flimsy, which wasn't enough for me in and of itself, but the fact that you're pointing out of him being inconsistent with the supposed basis behind his reads has swayed me

Am still keeping an eye on VP though. List coming shortly because I probably should have a while ago

[ready2rock]

Town: Blair, Atarashi, Puppy

Lean town: Quick, Nauci

Neutral (because I'm uncertain on my read): Mavs, Votato

Neutral (because there isn't enough to go on): Peter Pan, Gamma, iDany

Lean Scum: NPOM, VP

[ready2rock]

Putting pressure on is not the same as tunneling.

On Atarashi, it's nothing super deep, just like the posts they've made early, and didn't really love the case being made against him, but we'll have to see how they are when they come back

[ready2rock]

UNVOTE: because I'm about to go to sleep and am a bit paranoid, and if people did happen to read my last game you'll know why. Want to make sure some more people are on the record on NPOM. Will reapply my vote when I wake up if the vote count doesn't change.

[ready2rock]

I think I've pinpointed the main issue I have with NPOM, which is that he's boiling down the game into very simplistic terms. Lurking is scummy. Hesitation is town. People on wagons are scummy.

What I find scummy about that is that it's easy and convenient to then take that and fit people into nice little boxes, and even have your read go wildly back and forth, without really having to justify it all that much, and to meld those broad generalizations into whatever read suits you at that point in the game

@VP Thoughts on NPOM and his case/wagon? (want this answered before I reapply my vote)

@Mod

Should Atarashi get a prod, or am I misreading prod timers?

[ready2rock]

Couple of thoughts

Starting to raise some eyebrows at Nauci, particularly the way she seems to be indirectly defending NPOM to Quick. Still leaning town, but might be worth looking at if NPOM flips scum, which I'm feeling better and better about.

Mavs is coming across as more town to me, feels much more like he's actively participating and scumhunting rather than searching for tiny details to nitpick.

I have noticed that votato has changed his tone since the start of the game, and it seems to have taken the target off his back. Not sure if this is a scumtell in and of itself, but may affect my read if other things come to light

[ready2rock]

OK, how this has developed has made me feel even better on my scum reads, that being VP and NPOM

VOTE: NPOM

That's L-1.

[ready2rock]

I feel like there has to be a town between R2R, NPOM, and votato, so I guess my docket today is figuring out who that is after dinner

Is this because of some speculation you have about setup, or because you don't think that the 3 you listed could all be scum at the same time? And I'm town, so there's that much solved for you.

Will type up some more detailed thoughts on VP later tonight

[ready2rock]

Hey all, I'll be catching up on the thread over the next hour or so, and going back and looking at people I had null-scum reads on yesterday, so let me know if there's anything you want me to address.

[ready2rock]

So reflecting on Quick and Blair yesterday, their movement throughout the day seems strange, mostly from how they went from tunneling each other for pages straight to suddenly uniting to lynch NPOM. For a few pages, it was like the rest of were running a marathon, working to catch scum, while the two of them were racing in laps around a track, arguing with each other. Then suddenly, they start agreeing on this “slip,” realize that everyone else is miles away from them, and Quick especially starts pushing for a NPOM lynch.

@Quick/Blair: was there anything deeper behind your motivation to push each other so much aside from your suspicion of each other? And if so, was there anything you got out of it?

I’ll summarize my thoughts that I had yesterday on VP in this way: he talked about not liking the phrase “low hanging fruit.” What I meant by using that is that I personally feel that one of the better ways to look for scum is to look at overall broad patterns of behavior, because I think it’s rare to catch scum in a super obvious slip or one particular vote (it’s part of that philosophy that Blair found of me 10 years ago saying I dislike day 1. So what I didn’t like about VP is that even early on he seemed to be trying to pick on particular bits of phrasing that were slightly off and build an entire case around it, where if anything I feel like scum would be overly cautious with their phrasing (27, 74, and 535 are a couple of examples of this kind of thing). To me reading, especially those early posts, it felt like scum not being able to do actual scumhunting and so trying to reach for supposed “slips” or tiny bits of phrasing. Later on in the day I found his post to be better, so I want to see how this day develops.

866 - I’m not sure I like Gamma jumping right on the opportunity to jump on the next most popular wagon from yesterday in me. Feels like wanting to push the scumread on me to end the day even faster on day 2. Kind of similar for Mavs jumping and suddenly shifting to reading votato as scum, but gamma jumps out to me more since I’m 100% in my town alignment, vs only leaning town-neutral on votato, plus mavs later shifts back on this, which feels genuine

879 - The reason I asked VP that question is because he was the only one who was semi-active and not on the record about NPOM. Since I thought at the time that he was my most likely candidate for scum, I didn’t want to end the day with him not posting any thoughts on his wagon.

889 sums up my thoughts on yesterday’s wagon really well. Blair is making a lot of sense overall and it’s kind of unsettling me tbh, could be she’s very good and convincing scum

Caught up to my own post from earlier and this took longer than I thought, so gonna put these thoughts out there then continue in a little bit

[ready2rock]

OK reading there wasn't as much content after that as I was worried there might be.

@Blair like I said in the last post I feel like you're making a lot of sense, but that also makes me wary that you're currently being as convincing as you are, so want to see a bit more before I put down a vote

[ready2rock]

@Quick/Blair: was there anything deeper behind your motivation to push each other so much aside from your suspicion of each other?

Uh, this is what he asked though. Weren't you guys fake tunneling on each other to try to catch scum?

That was my thought in skimming through thread again, at least as a possibility, glad someone else might've gotten that impression

[ready2rock]

@Gamma The difference there is that I haven't scumread votato all game, I considered those minor phrasing things in my analysis of him, but said I wasn't sure what to make of him because he's also done other things that I like, and put him on my neutral list later. People who are saying I'm scumreading him are mischaracterizing what I actually said.

The issue I have with the vote is the timing. You posted it right when the day started, with no comment on the NK or the flip at all, and from my perspective makes it feel like scum trying to push another fast mislynch on a wagon that they know had traction yesterday.

VOTE: Gammagooey

Pedit @Blair: And now I'm stealing your content by voting gamma, you happy?

[ready2rock]

NPOM's reason for voting me was that he decided about 24-48 hours into the game that I was lurking. And then some terrible meta argument that I couldn't even follow. Am I missing something here? You claim he had some solid reason

[ready2rock]

VOTE: R2R

your midway vote didnt last long... what happened there?

I'd kinda prefer Gamma not getting lynched and I really don't like any of the people voting there. Not because I dislike those people, just that I think they all have a pretty decent chance at being Scum here.

These posts were about an hour apart though with literally a vote count in between, why this sudden conclusion?

[ready2rock]

Think my main takeaway from the end of day is that Quick can't really be scum. I can't see a) Quick catching onto the PR hints of Blair and b) Gamma's claim being so off, AND c) Quick calling it out in thread instead of shifting attention off it and trying to let the wagon fade

@Puppy on 1225 where were you in the thread? What point were you addressing? Or were you caught up at that point? That post is the main one that feels off to me

Pedit: OK a ton of posts were made in the time I was reading and writing this, so will catch up on those after I post this

[ready2rock]

Going back to reread day 2, here's what jumped out to me:

I’ll be honest, I had a slight scum read on Nauci. Anyone have a hypothesis on why it was her? Looking through her ISO she had votes on r2r and votato. She’s not the only suspecting those two. She also had 851 asking about GammaGooey that went unfulfilled before the hammer.

Looking at the votes on NPOM, I must think there was at least one scum voting there. (Yep, I was on that wagon too, I’m aware.) Quick’s case and post detailing his case I think is extremely hard for scum to fake and for him to learn hard on it, I can’t see him being scum. Blair piggybacks off this but has independent thoughts asking NPOM to scum hunt and town hunt which would suggest she was influenced by Quick’s case but did have her own reasons to suspect him. Atarashi had reason to suspect NPOM but that was very early in the game, so can’t say much about that as he’s disappeared. Dunnstral, R2R, and votato are the others and I’ve gotta think scum is most likely here.

Dunnstral

- I didn’t like the catch up and hammer. Read to me like a “sure, why not” vote. Reading the catch up, I couldn’t see conviction in a reason to hammer with the thought of NPOM flipping scum.

R2R

- I’ve gotta go back and reread the interaction between him and NPOM and see if I think this is TvT. I’m leaning a vote here right now with the flip of NPOM. The reason I won’t is cause I don’t trust my reads right now, speaking of which...

Votato

- so I was pretty vocal about reading votato as town. But with NPOM’s flip and looking through the ISOs of the voters’ this one I did have issue with, specifically the development of the NPOM vote. So 310 was awhile ago with the amount of posts this game has, but votato states here he feels strongly about Atarashi and won’t move his vote. He then flips to VP Baltar. Then again on NPOM. Seems like a drastic change from “not moving off Atarashi.” Of all the votes, this one seems to be the most hopping on a wagon. I still read the rest of his ISO as town, but the vote progression from resistance of moving his vote to willingly hopping on the NPOM wagon, I’m having serious doubts here and want a better read here.

VOTE: Vote: votato

Not sure how I feel about mavs pointing out Nauci's suspicion and questioning of Gamma here in light of the flip. VP then says later that he should reply to the posts, which I get a bit more solid town vibes off of

@Gammagooey: reading R2R’s ISO, I saw 702 plenty of times and I thought that was a fair representation of what NPOM was actually doing. It fit the narrative that he was lazy scum hunting which ultimately lead to his lynch (along with Quick’s case). I know you explained this, but I’m not sure I understand why that one would be scummy and grouped with the others. The other posts you’ve pointed out, sure. But 702 I’m not quite sure I read it as scummy. Could you please elaborate a bit further on that one?
Your Blair/R2R interaction is very interesting.

This I flat out don't like, really comes off as trying to prod your buddy to strengthen their case while trying to come across as being skeptical of it.

Oh, didn't mean to quote Puppy in that post, but I did want to point out how awful that post was. Is anybody buying that first line?

im not buying any of it. who would want to vote for me

Me. But the Blair/R2R pairing makes waaaaay more sense than you/R2R.

UNVOTE: Votato

Blair’s wagon theory does make sense but I would pursue Puppy over GammaGooey here.

@VP Baltar: where does Puppy’s LAMIST post compare with mine?

Which feels even more off by mavs immediately proceeding to switch off votato and onto me at the first opportunity, without gamma even answering the question yet btw.

Actually at the 0th opportunity, this offhand joking remark by votato is apparently enough for mavs to be satisfied with how unsure he was with sorting votato just a few posts earlier

gamma: 25 posts
blair: 214 posts

and yet i still feel like gamma has had a more significant positive impact on the game.

This really rubs me the wrong way, given that it was at a time when Blair was having a hard time getting the wagon going.

at this point do we need L-1? its time for gamma to claim.

But now this feels better to me. I do agree with others that he was vote hopping a lot yesterday (onto people who weren't gamma I might add until the very end), but it also seemed to come from a position of legitimate uncertainty, so I think I'm overall neutral here

ok, i'm all caught up, i didn't see the stuff about roles and claims until the end

not sure there's much i can add, one of blair/gamma is scum, i've been townreading blair most of the game and will probably side that way

Saying this where you could've added a vote it just kind of baffles me that town would do that, but at the same time would be such a blatant misplay for scum to do that I can't really bring myself to scumread it either

Overall, I think pushing Mavs is the way to go VOTE: mavsfan41

[ready2rock]

The hellbrooks slot is weird. Atarashi I did read early game as town. I’m not a flat earther, but considering how he fell off the face of the earth, maybe
Hellbrooks hasn’t been in the game too much and between her group of posts and Atarashi’s short lived time in this game, there’s just not much there.

So there's "not much there" and you read the previous person in the slot as town, but

hellbrooks

I think puppy/Quick, one is scum. I can’t see them both being scum. Hellbrooks of the Ayers I’ve narrowed down strikes me as most likely scum. He hasn’t offered much.

VOTE: hellbrooks

Earlier she's "most likely scum" and you're voting her?

[ready2rock]

@mavs Repeating what I said earlier, to me the issue with your vote is not who you voted, but also the timing. a couple posts earlier you were seemingly set on votato and wanted to pressure and sort him. Then suddenly, after someone who we now know as scum presents their case on me, you're willing to completely abandon votato and jump onto a wagon that you say you aren't even convinced of the strength of yet. It doesn't feel like a natural progression.

And again, the reason I feel that Quick is town is that the actions of scum yesterday and the actions of Quick in thread make no sense if Quick is scum.

[ready2rock]

If you were reading her as a cop, why not try to force the gamma wagon without outing her?

Probably because, like I have said a million times already, Scum was already probably 3-4 steps ahead of me. If I can pick up that Blair is cop and I am normally PR blind (which I am, but I do have a special ability of finding VT) then it's pretty obvious Scum already knew Blair was cop pages and pages ago. I didn't actually do any harm as far as I can see. Besides, what Scum motive is there for outing the cop as Scum?

There absolutely is incentive to talk about PRs as scum. It gives a scum team more information to go off to fish them out the more people talk about.

Perhaps you disagree as a town philosophy, but that's generally how I think. The mafia team already has more info, so why give them anymore?

Perhaps there may be times when that's true, but in this case I very much disagree. At a point when people weren't sure whether or not to trust Blair and the Gamma wagon was kind of keeping stagnant, outing the PR only served to strengthen her case, make people trust her, and get gamma lynched. At that point in the day, there was every incentive to keep that speculation amongst themselves, if they even had any (which, given gamma's weak claim, I'm not even sure they did)

[ready2rock]

intent to hammer.

You gonna give some reason behind this? Other than pushing his PoE reads, you haven't said much about mavs from what I can see

Pedit: UNVOTE: Need to unpack and read up on this role

[ready2rock]

@midway: I was thinking that before the intent to hammer. If he is actually the compliment to my role, then how does he know to breadcrumb an answer to me AND somehow not realize I’m basically the most confirmed town for him with an intent to hammer? I was gonna claim L-1 but didn’t want to out votato. But boy, smh. With his intent to hammer, sorry votato I’m out’ing you if you’re gonna hammer me.

Why does votato continue to suspect midway and push for his wagon after saying he's "fruitless?" This is my first exposure to the role, so help me out here

[ready2rock]

If that answer involves revealing too much before votato claims, feel free to not answer

[ready2rock]

@Mavs why target Dunnstral N1? You didn't say anything about investigating him at the start of day 2, and you seemed to think that votato and I were scummier at the time.

[ready2rock]

EBWOP: Mean to say that you didn't drop a hint about investigating him at the time, like how you're saying he would be easy to check today

[ready2rock]

intent to hammer.

Apologies to votato first, but now I’m not entirely sure.....

I’m a town disloyal fruit vendor. This means I pick one person at night to target and they receive a piece of fruit IF AND ONLY IF they’re scum. I targeted Dunnstral night 1 and midway bear night 2 hence 1298. Votato picks up on this and says midway is fruitless aka midway isn’t scum and votato has the complimentary town role to mine (by why the intent to hammer if he picked up on this?!?) This would make sense if votato is the compliment and was previously suspicious of midway to have checked him.

Dunnstral I did mention might be scum but easy way to check. R2R is basically confirmed town via the push of Gamma.

That leaves:
Hellbooks
Quick
Puppy
VP Baltar

Jfc guys!!!

Also, thinking how votato’s intent to hammer is crazy if he is actually the complimentary role to mine and knows someone must be supplying people with fruit and how I asked.... awkward

I don't think there's a normal queue role that checks to see if somebody has fruit - so you're overthinking with Votato

Don't you think you should have asked me/midway to claim whether we had ever gotten fruit before revealing your full hand?

This is another good question

[ready2rock]

Y'all can lynch me, but not until I say what I have to say.

Why is someone with 0 votes on him saying this? I had you as solid town until this last page where you've been doing some super anti-town stuff

[ready2rock]

I will say that I that I think I'm inclined to believe that Midway doesn't have fruit, because otherwise I feel like he'd pick up on what you were asking, even if he didn't respond to it

[ready2rock]

There's also this later on

- Everyone should stop saying "low hanging fruit." In fact, I'll say it's actively scummy to dismiss any cases on that point alone because it doesn't have a factual basis that can be countered. It's a subjective statement.

Question is there's a lot of noise at this point in the game, is this a signal or are we stretching here?

[ready2rock]

Votato/mavs scumteam

Still plausible or out of the question?

[ready2rock]

To clarify

My thought in looking at this is that exactly one of these two are scum, and right now I trust votato moreso than mavs, but I'm willing to hear if other people think there are scenarios where they're both town or both scum

[ready2rock]

Votato/mavs scumteam

Still plausible or out of the question?

To clarify

My thought in looking at this is that exactly one of these two are scum, and right now I trust votato moreso than mavs, but I'm willing to hear if other people think there are scenarios where they're both town or both scum

Good thoughts.

How would you compare this with my thought that there is one Scum in VP/votato?

That's possible, I just think for a possible lynch today there's more to go off with mavs/votato because of the claims (or lack thereof)

But willing to hear counterarguments

[ready2rock]

Yeah I'm just unsure of the claim atm, it feels like something cooked together N2 if he got in trouble (since there was no indication of it before D3), and feels awfully convenient that it's a claim that's very unlikely to leave a trace, and hence very easy to fake as scum

Want to hear what some other people think though, know that a few people haven't had the chance to put their two cents in.

[ready2rock]

Been keeping up with the past couple pages, but don't have a ton of input to give, mostly because the 3 people that have votes right now are people I largely have town reads on. I believe votato atm over mavs, still don't think quick's actions on day 2 make any sense if he's scum, and think that the way mavs claimed and the way midway responded to it likely comes from midway being town regardless of how mavs flips.

The people I think are most likely scum are in {mavs, VP, Puppy}, but none of them are super strong reads, more based off people I don't think aren't scum if that makes any sense.

Will probably go back and reread D3 sometime today or tomorrow

[ready2rock]

@r2r and hellbrooks - who do you actually want to vote out today? We need some stronger opinions from you.

I don't have much at the moment, which I why I need to have a reread. Before I was pretty set on wanting a mavs lynch, and now I'm not sure how helpful it'll be to flip mavs either way

The one thing I will say right now is that I think this longer day has been helpful, particularly since days 1 and 2 were cut so short. Gives us more information, gives everyone time to give input on what's going on, etc. so I don't mind too much that we're taking our time right now

[ready2rock]

Based on Non-Associatives + # of posts:

R2R, hellbooks
VP, mav
Dunn, Midway, Puppy > Null
votato

But with the soft clear on Dunn and taking out R2R we get:

hellbooks
VP, mav, Dunn
Midway, Puppy>Null
votato

@Quick I took this post to mean that you were leaning town on VP at that point, but maybe I'm interpreting this list wrong

[ready2rock]

@puppy: to add to what mavs said about your opinion being wishy washy, I really notice it reading back after mavs claims. You go from believing votato and thinking mavs is lying in 1638 to saying that the breadcrumbs are good in 1641 to saying that either mavs or votato are scum in 1648, then turn around and say that a mavs votato scumteam is plausible in 1653, and I could go on, but to me it reads like you’re just throwing a lot of thoughts at the wall on votato and mavs and I still can’t get a good sense of your read on them at all.

Did you townread either of them at first after the claim? At what point did that change? I know you’re evolving your stance on the game atm, but I want you to help me with your thought process at the time

@midway thoughts on puppy’s more recent posts? Who is in your PoE overall at this point?

@votato can you elaborate a bit on your read on hellbooks? Has it changed at all since your 1686?

@hellbooks Where is your read on puppy atm? If puppy flips red, where do you propose we should look next?

[ready2rock]

VOTE: Hellbooks

OK, so after rereading day 3 last night, I think either puppy and hellbooks should be the lynch today. Out of these two, I think that hellbooks has come out of today looking scummiest overall. As others mentioned, it’s jumping out to me the way that she’ll post something that seems like it has the implication of a read without actually giving a read. 1602 for example, where she starts calling puppy into question, without actually committing to a read herself.

Then she jumps back into the thread and votes puppy with absolutely no explanation or case (1811), then unvotes, again with no explanation the second puppy is put at L-1, and says both that she doesn’t like a post that’s give (again, doesn’t explain why) in 1828, then the very next post that puppy makes she said feels towny (1834). On top of that, in 1830 she tries to get attention away from puppy by fishing for if she can get a lynch on me going out of nowhere. All in all it’s fence sitting in a way that feels extremely scummy to me

As for puppy, in rereading I was trying to track down a concrete or comprehensive case on puppy last night and just couldn’t find anything. Besides what I said in my last post about constantly going back and forth on mavs and votato, the biggest strike against puppy to me is the way they just disappeared for most of day 2 and the start of day 3, though I think lack of effort is probably an overall null tell. As for others’ cases, it is curious that it took until we put puppy at L-1 in order to them to start putting effort in, and I think that’s the biggest strike against puppy atm, but I see the hellbooks case is more solid right now.

Would still like hellbooks and midway to answer the questions I asked them in my previous post

[ready2rock]

i think hellbooks having doubts isn't a compelling point. uncertain ideas is just as much a town tell as a scum tell, it could show a mind struggling to work out the game.

Not in the way that she was on and off your wagon, it came across to me as not wanting to pin down her position on you so that she could set herself up to take whatever vague position she wanted after your flip.

Plus, weren't you one of the people on quick's case earlier today for changing his reads so much?

[ready2rock]

wait im just realizing hellbooks is atarashi. hmmm.... im ok with hammering that slot in 24 hours pending claim. why could i be scum with that slot? also why cant puppy midway be scum with hellbooks?

This strikes me as a question worth asking people, including yourself

If we get a hellbooks flip, what do you think that tells us about the remaining scum? Especially if hellbooks flips scum?

[ready2rock]

oh man you got him there bro

[ready2rock]

Biggest pitch I have for hellbooks over midway is that I think the former would give us a bit more information, since I don't think midway's posts are as substantial.

Plus, y'know, I think hellbooks is more likely to be scum

I'd be OK with midway though

[ready2rock]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: midwaybear

[ready2rock]

Agree with mavs. I do think the other wagons we've had recently would give us more information to go off.

That being said, I don't want the end of the day to be rushed, and it seems from the activity in the thread lately that most people have said their piece

[ready2rock]

Agree with mavs. I do think the other wagons we've had recently would give us more information to go off.

That being said, I don't want the end of the day to be rushed, and it seems from the activity in the thread lately that most people have said their piece

what wagons do you think would give more info and why?

Well I was pretty clear in my previous posts that a hellbooks lynch is what I'd prefer at this point, and I wouldn't mind puppy either

Overall I think both have given more substantial reads/analysis throughout the day, which gives us more to go off the next day than midway, who has either given no read or minimal read with no reason stated

Basically, I think using other people to figure out midway will be easier to do than using midway to figure out other people

[ready2rock]

r2r stop voting me because you don’t think I’m scum
We can counter wagon

I think with puppy's more recent posts shifting my read to null, my list is hellbooks > you > puppy

So I like my vote where it is I think

[ready2rock]

Ugh, apologies to midway, I've learned my lesson about quickhammers.

Reevaluating Dunn, and he had posted zero read on midway prior to that vote, and it was right when the case against himself was starting to gain traction. Looks really really bad.

@mavs thoughts on Dunn at this point?

Not putting down a vote yet because the end of D3 has me quite paranoid about voting right now.

[ready2rock]

its very unlikely that scum will come in and quickhammer here considering I am already hard bussing and cant double-vote.

Oh you are eh? Well that solves that then. Town win ggs

[ready2rock]

All I could see was a last second effort to get the wagon on me instead of himself - that didn't sit right with me and I'm paranoid about scum trying to vote me out

What isn't said here "I felt midway was scum and wanted to catch scum"

What was said "I didn't want a wagon to start on myself" <-- super ultra scummy

I'm holding to not wanting to put someone at L-1 this early in the day but whoo boy

[ready2rock]

As town you're not typically OK with getting lynched, but at the same time not overly worried or, as you said, paranoid, about it. To me, being paranoid about suspicion and getting lynched is a scum tell

Also, I was gonna point out that your read on midway dramatically shifted to be able to go in and hammer in the same way that you're accusing midway of doing, then remembered that you had never given a read on midway whatsoever

[ready2rock]

I feel like I can't get puppy and/or votato lynched because everyone is following what quick is doing and he's not pushing those

hmm

[ready2rock]

what's scummy about quickhammering?

For me it wasn't quickhammering in and of itself (which is why I didn't agree when puppy made the case yesterday). It's the fact that he had given no reasoning or read or any indication that he was going to come in and hammer at all.

The scummy motivation is that you see momentum building on a wagon on yourself, people are starting to ask about a case on you, and you have 2 votes close to the end of the day, so in order to take the pressure off yourself, you quickhammer so that at worst you put off your lynch to another day, and at best you can maybe talk yourself out of it the next day and get the attention on someone else. Especially since he had said nothing about his read on midway whatsoever in the past

In fact, Dunn has already admitted in part that he had this motivation, that he was paranoid about the pressure on him and didn't want it to continue.

I agree that NKA can be a lot of WIFOM, and I actually posted it more to see if scum were trying to run with that angle, but it doesn't look like they are. It does make me wonder why they decided to go for a claimed VT, and I think they may be going for the angle of trying to force suspicion onto other people.

[ready2rock]

@Dunn: Are puppy and votato still your top scumreads right now? If so, can you give a more descriptive case on either of them? If not, who are your reads right now?

[ready2rock]

Also as a follow-up to that, I'm skeptical of a puppy/votato scumteam, given how puppy was pressing votato yesterday and how aggressive they're both being today, so if you or anyone else who disagrees has a case for that I'd love to hear it

[ready2rock]

OK after having some time to think it over I feel more confident about my read yesterday than my read today

VOTE: hellbooks

I think this flip gives more info than dunn anyway, so I'm not making the same mistake 2 days in a row

[ready2rock]

fwiw I do think puppy was pretty confirmed town just based on the fact that they were basically the sole reason for Dunn coming under any suspicion at all. He was basically cleared town by pretty much everyone (including myself) before puppy started making a case

Interested to hear from hellbooks, particularly how the Dunn flip alters her potential scum

Also since I haven't played a non-open setup in a while, is there any possibility that there are 4 scum and we're in lylo? Or am I getting too worried and that's out of the question?

[ready2rock]

We can't let you go unpunished for lolhammers. We also get at least as much info from your lynch as from Puppy's

I have to say, this latest "fight" between votato and Dunn feels very performative. First, are people seriously talking about killing puppy today? I don't think so. Second, I don't think the Dunn lynch has anything to do with gaining information. This smacks of distancing for me if the team is votato/Dunn.

In looking at D4 again I might actually agree with this take. VP is also on my radar, but the way he worked to let the day play out felt very town to me. Feel like scum would look to get the inevitable wrapped up as quickly as possible (which is another reason I'm starting to suspect votato)

[ready2rock]

Looking at my D3 notes it's worth noting that votato was also pushing midway super hard from the start. Maybe knew he'd be an easy mislynch candidate? Then ends the day by defending the dunn hammer

Still early in the day so no vote yet, but my top scumread might be shifting to votato here

[ready2rock]

I do see what you're saying, though I will point out that votato was never really in any danger of getting lynched that day, so it seems like it could potentially be a safe bus.

On the other hand, it does seem awful risky to go from bussing your partner straight to hard tunneling your other partner D3

[ready2rock]

Also since I haven't played a non-open setup in a while, is there any possibility that there are 4 scum and we're in lylo? Or am I getting too worried and that's out of the question?

Still would like this answered by someone

[ready2rock]

WIFOM ahoy, but puppy was scumreading mavs and votato as most likely partners, and was one of the few people not scumreading hellbooks.

Don't want it to sway my opinions on the first two all that much, but I do think it's possible that scum are trying to set up a mislynch of hellbooks today

[ready2rock]

yeah i'd be very surprised here to see more than 3 scum. Also i stand by the push on midway. if you can point me to any game solving content or really any content from him, ill apologize to him for the mislynch.

r2r, if that theory is correct, who would you say is most likely scum? still me?

I'm really uncertain at this point tbh

Also agreed about midway's low amount of content and reads, but that's what makes him such an easy mislynch target for scum, and I'm still kind of frustrated at myself for buying into it.

[ready2rock]

@VP: I’m not quite sure I buy the WIFOM theory about hellbooks. I get why people do read her as scummy. But she was mentioned as scummy and a potential lynch. So I can’t see how scum!hellbooks takes her vote off at L-1 and gauges interest in an R2R lynch (a lynch that would be a much harder lynch as R2R sat at 0 votes).With her removing her vote, scum!hellbooks made it harder to get a presumed mislynch knowing very well she might be today’s lynch. I still think despite her scumminess, I can’t see that action coming from scum in that scenario.

It's a fair point. I just feel like despite running lots of folks up today, we haven't been too unified on a decision. Put another way, what were the odds of any given L-1 happening? But you make a solid point on what the standard scum play would be there.

Appreciate Quick being good people, regardless of alignment. You have my vote.

UNVOTE: hellbrooks
VOTE: midway

Midway definitely hasn't been scumhunting this game, and the several "I'm cleared town!" posts could be bad town play or just a scum gambit to plant disinformation. Mostly, I think we need to start coalescing wagons here and I'm not down for offing Puppy. I don't get the sense people are super into a hellbrooks wagon, even though I think there is a reasonable case there (at least as reasonable as midway). Plus side is that I think it's very possible for midway to have bussed Gamma. Plus, if midway flips red, that makes Quick look much better. Downside is that getting rid of midway doesn't clear up anything on that NPOM wagon the first day.

Biggest pitch I have for hellbooks over midway is that I think the former would give us a bit more information, since I don't think midway's posts are as substantial.

Plus, y'know, I think hellbooks is more likely to be scum

I'd be OK with midway though

Here's the votes on midway from VP and myself.

do we? i think it's the only thing he's done that looks town, though it could just have been an accident. try to bus your partner and distance without knowing there's a cop with a guilty on him. i think overall it's null-town

Well maybe we have similar opinions then. I thought you were saying it wasn't really town. It certainly could be bussing, but it's enough of a protown move I'm not inclined to say that's the best case today.

And I also came across VP defending Dunn as puppy starts to try and build a case on him near the end of D3

[ready2rock]

Also what are people's thoughts on mavs? Is there good reason reason (apart from NK WIFOM stuff) to think that it's possible for mavs to be scum?

[ready2rock]

Someone needs to explain to me why scum!hellbooks would NK the ONLY person in the game that wasn't scumreading her

[ready2rock]

@votato if hellbooks flips town where do you think we look next?

[ready2rock]

i guess a good argument for puppy to die above r2r and mavs is that scum just thought that the TvS pseudoclear from yesterday would have made him unmislynchable

This, plus trying to push a hellbooks mislynch, is the reason I think puppy got the NK

I don't care whether VP or I claim first, so I'll leave it up to you guys since votato had an outlined order in mind. I just wanted hellbooks to claim first, which she has.

[ready2rock]

OK, short version: I’m a tracker, and hellbooks is clear

Longer version: My first small crumb was in 979 in referring to a track.

So the craziest part of this game to me was that I also investigated and got a guilty result from gamma night 1 (found that he visited Nauci), which, if you go back and read day 2, is why I was so astounded and suspicious at blair suddenly trying to push him out of nowhere. I’m still quite amused that it happened

Night 2 I investigated puppy and found that they visited no one in the night, which I crumbed in 1915 because I thought for sure I was gonna get NK’ed way sooner

As for puppy, in rereading

I was trying to track down a concrete or comprehensive case on puppy last night and just couldn’t find anything

.

Since hellbooks has been my top scumread for quite a while, I’ve investigated her nights 3 and 4 and she hasn’t visited anyone (this was why I was confirming for sure about there being 4 scum, wanted to make sure the only scum alive had to be the one who performed the NK)

I thought about investigating someone else last night, but I wanted to be absolutely certain to sort my, and everyone’s, top scumread

[ready2rock]

Well I'm glad I chose to investigate you because I absolutely would've bought into the mislynch of you and caused us to waste a day

I will absolutely take the NK in exchange for saving a mislynch.

Right now I think I'm leaning towards votato, but we have plenty of time to work this out

[ready2rock]

Here's my thought on mavs claim: let's say he used it to "catch dunn" in the way that y'all are proposing (which for the record I do think would be the proper way to play the role and I think I said so at the time). Then we'd be sitting here being like "oh well scum knows who scum are so mavs was just using this role as a gambit to get town cred"

If mavs is scum, I'd like a case of scummy things he's done that goes beyond stuff about his claim or NK stuff

For now my main thought is still votato, but I haven't ruled out mavs and VP either

[ready2rock]

My point being that I think "mavs played the role in a suspiciously convenient way" would be said no matter how he played it

[ready2rock]

Short version is that the Day 3 push of midway felt like scum pushing an easy mislynch, and day 4 felt like a performative bus, especially in the way that you seemed to want to get it over with as fast as possible

Point in your favor is the way that dunn treated you, which mavs brought up earlier

[ready2rock]

hellbooks, you are today's inevitable lynch.

i literally love the vibe evoked here, it's like "hellbooks, you are today's 100th caller." congratulations, the prize is We will Come to your House and Punch You

Also this feels very much like trying to push a quick mislynch as well, especially since you knew that I was scumreading and voting hellbooks yesterday

[ready2rock]

Pedit: Hellbrooks and I were in the middle of a convo yesterday, Mavs, and I think it is probably fair for me to give her a chance to continue today. Much like yesterday, I don't see a need to rush a wagon. Yesterday proved that we can put the info out there and still make the right call. Had I rushed my vote yesterday, I can almost guarantee Dunn would have self hammered to end the day sooner, don't you think?

Compared to this, which comes across as town interested in getting it right and listen to as much information as possible

[ready2rock]

Probably should be closer to this:

Hellbooks, VP, R2R
Puppy, votato, Dunn
mav

why are hellbooks and r2r so high up? why is mav so far down?

nope. i didnt turn against VP. i asked quick a question. i still TR VP (ish). the movement on my read is in the general towards towny direction. not sure what youre reading, but it isnt my post. and i've been pushing for the same wagon since yesterday. i want a wagon on midway. im really not changing at all. but i suppose i could go for a dunnstral wagon.

VP Baltar seems to me to be setting up to lay down a Dunn vote but wants to be more careful about it plus it feels like he's letting the quick hammer argument (which I don't find compelling at all) completely redirect him from his gameview yesterday which seemed to be that me and midway were the scummiest people (and now there's not a mention of me) + has not really posted anything to escape my POE pool for a full day phase

Dunn+hellbrooks is a very real possibility. Putting it out there now.

the fact that you're just now realizing that makes me think theyre both town and that you're the real scum. but maybe i should stop being paranoid.

VP gets to be town for now, even if that post was a steaming pile of shi - shih tzus

Pictured: votato scumreading VP since Day 1

(disclaimer, there have been times where votato has scumread/voted VP, but the point being that it certainly hasn't been the consistent stance since day 1 like he's claiming)

And if you think that's a weak and unfair argument (which it is probably a bit nitpicky), there's this speculation later:

assume for a minute dunn is scum. His buddy probably wants to be on a counterwagon, but they probably dont want to be on the same wagon because it looks like dunn is the lynch. that means scum dunn probably means scum VP, yes? im still thinking the likely scumpairs are [dunn, vp] or [hellbooks, puppy], and im not sure where i would put mav in that mix. hellbooks and mav: why arent you voting at all? dunn, why are you on a vanity wagon? r2r, why books over dunn?

And yet when dunn flips scum and puppy is killed, it still logically makes the most sense for hellbooks lynch to be "inevitable" by your logic and to throw out the window this scumread on VP that you've supposedly always had? Doesn't feel at all natural.

Not gonna vote yet because I'm interested in hearing what hellbooks has to say, but I'm feeling better about this

[ready2rock]

Votato, if you've been townreading mavs all game, can you explain why you suddenly were the one who put an intent to hammer on him, and then refused to claim when asked if you were just VT? Also can you address the other questions/cases that have been posted that you promised you'd answer and then haven't?

Also votato putting "been scumreading someone all game" and "been townreading them all game, but the role feels a bit off to me" as 50/50 feels super scummy to me. Not only that, but his first instinct after my claim is to vote the townread???

@hellbooks: I don't know about better record, as you puppy and midway were scumreads for me for quite a bit of this game. Do I understand your ranking to be mavs, then votato, then VP from scummiest to not?

@mavs: Thoughts on VP at this point?

[ready2rock]

And now some musings about why I'm inclined to believe the mavs claim:

I am curious what this other scum role is if mavs claim is true, but I still think both the way he crumbed the role and the timing (there was almost no pressure/votes on him at the time he was crumbing, so there wasn't reason to think he was in danger of having to claim) leads me to believe it.

Other questions on the mavs claim to think about if he's making it up:
Why would he claim something that strange and verifiable by a PR while at L-1 with intent to hammer?
Dunn clearly had a play for claiming that mavs has admitted would've been better. If that's the case, why didn't Dunn discuss and advise this with mavs in the thread?
If the scumteam thought there was some kind of fruit checker in the game, as mavs clearly did, why did he pin fruit on his scumbuddy that he thought was clear?

Time to play another game of "hypothetical scum chat"

mavs: OK so here's the plan everyone, I'm going to crumb disloyal fruit vendor

Dunn: Doesn't that feel super scummy and unverifiable?

mavs: Oh don't worry, I think votato's a fruit checker, so he'll be able to get a confirmed guilty on you even though you have no suspicion on you right now! Then it's just 3 mislynches away from me solo carrying us to victory!

Dunn: .........

[ready2rock]

Intent to hammer

Votato if you have a more detailed case on VP or a detailed defense of the points raised against you thus far today, I'd suggest you give it soon.

Hellbooks if you're opposed to a votato lynch and want to play out the day a bit longer feel free to say so

I'll give about 12 hours or so

[ready2rock]

Rereading VP's iso, didn't see a ton, but came across one or two things

Like, I didn't even fully catch up. That r2r goof is 100% scum.

Ah the good old days lol

@gamma - if you think r2r had bad reasons for jumping on the NPOM wagon, what is your assessment of Dunn?

Doesn't feel like something scum would bring to people's attention, seems like that'd be an unforced error

The hesitation to buy the mavs case and pushing people to unvote also feels fairly town

I'll say again that I think the progression of his feelings on dunn throughout the day felt a lot more natural than votato's, though still could be a transition to a bus

@VP: Can you talk me through your thought process of your vote after my first claim? You seemed to be leaning town on both a lot this game, but votato slightly scummier, so what was your first instinct between the two of them and why did you settle on voting mavs at first?

[ready2rock]

@R2R: I claimed in Day 3 and yet you didn’t track me. I figured N3, the tracker was easily going to be on me, really surprised. So I’m guessing you do believe my claim if you didn’t even bother tracking me.

Wanted to circle back to this because I just remembered (it's been like 2 weeks irl I forget things sometimes)

I think another reason I decided not to track you (other than being more suspicious of hellbooks at the time) is because I thought most likely scenario of scum faking this claim was to give an excuse for a scum PR to be visiting someone other than the NK (roleblocker, rolecop, etc), so I was thinking that even if you were found visiting someone other than the NK, it wouldn't actually clear you, so it wouldn't actually tell me all that much.

[ready2rock]

Theres plenty of time. If you want me to use it you have to give some to me. I'll be out for a few hours

I am giving you more time, but you have also had almost 2 days now to respond to the case made against you or to make a stronger case against someone else and you have simply chosen not to do so.

You've been asked questions and you've either ignored them or said you'll address them later, then ignored them, so I'm less sympathetic at the moment

yeah exactly. mav kinda has to be town.

this is not a winning play for scum to make. scum need to push through two MLs
So... i think votato is towniest ?????

I think it's possible for this to be scum flailing, but yes this is one of the first things in a while that would be slightly more likely to come from town than scum. But also he's been not buying mavs claim all game (enough to vote him over VP who he was "actually" scumreading), I make one post about it and now he buys it completely?

And who we lynch tomorrow is not really up to me, but I'll post my thoughts before the day ends anyways

[ready2rock]

Votato, if you've been townreading mavs all game, can you explain why you suddenly were the one who put an intent to hammer on him, and then refused to claim when asked if you were just VT? Also can you address the other questions/cases that have been posted that you promised you'd answer and then haven't?

Also votato putting "been scumreading someone all game" and "been townreading them all game, but the role feels a bit off to me" as 50/50 feels super scummy to me. Not only that, but his first instinct after my claim is to vote the townread???

@hellbooks: I don't know about better record, as you puppy and midway were scumreads for me for quite a bit of this game. Do I understand your ranking to be mavs, then votato, then VP from scummiest to not?

@mavs: Thoughts on VP at this point?

all my day 2 reads were really skewed because people had strange progressions stemming from nigh action results. and yeah, i've kinda waffled over the days. but if you look at my scum meta (see micro 938: butterfly mafia in particular, you could look at animals upick but i dunno how much youd learn), i dont really waffle or re-evaluate. i might take my time deciding where to push, but then i push it and stick to my guns. why is it scummy to reconsider?

Take this for example, where I ask specifically about the intent to hammer on mavs and why you did it, and also bring up your vote switching to mavs after you scumread VP and townread mavs

And your response is "but meta"

And this is the closest you've come to actually addressing points made against you

[ready2rock]

I literally just pointed out something you haven't addressed properly in the last post, but give me a second and I'll compile them together for you

[ready2rock]

votato, I'd like you to explain in detail your transition in thought on mavs. You've been bagging on him since his claim about how you don't believe it, so I'd like to hear specifics on this transition. What specifically led you to this benefit of the doubt? I'd also like you to address the questions I raise about the setup and what you see as the balance in that setup.

This never got answered

And if you think that's a weak and unfair argument (which it is probably a bit nitpicky), there's this speculation later:

assume for a minute dunn is scum. His buddy probably wants to be on a counterwagon, but they probably dont want to be on the same wagon because it looks like dunn is the lynch. that means scum dunn probably means scum VP, yes? im still thinking the likely scumpairs are [dunn, vp] or [hellbooks, puppy], and im not sure where i would put mav in that mix. hellbooks and mav: why arent you voting at all? dunn, why are you on a vanity wagon? r2r, why books over dunn?

And yet when dunn flips scum and puppy is killed, it still logically makes the most sense for hellbooks lynch to be "inevitable" by your logic and to throw out the window this scumread on VP that you've supposedly always had? Doesn't feel at all natural.

To put this in the format of a question, it seems like you thought that if Dunn flips scum then VP is the most likely partner, AND if puppy is scum then hellbooks is the most likely partner. You say this twice at the end of day 4

And yet, when a) dunn flips scum and b) puppy flips town, then hellbooks is suddenly the inevitable lynch no matter what? What changed in your reads here? Because it feels like it's pushing for the easy mislynch and doesn't follow from your actual thought process the previous day

On top of that:

Votato, if you've been townreading mavs all game, can you explain why you suddenly were the one who put an intent to hammer on him, and then refused to claim when asked if you were just VT? Also can you address the other questions/cases that have been posted that you promised you'd answer and then haven't?

Also votato putting "been scumreading someone all game" and "been townreading them all game, but the role feels a bit off to me" as 50/50 feels super scummy to me. Not only that, but his first instinct after my claim is to vote the townread???

I still want these two points answered as well
-Why intent to hammer mavs if you read him as town? It again did not follow from your read on mavs up to that point and looks like trying to wrap up the day
-This is the same question I asked VP, except I'm even more puzzled by your reasoning, because after I claimed you STILL insisted on not voting VP (who you both had said you scumread AND thought was a good partner for Dunn) and voted mavs instead. Help me understand your thought process here

Pedit: I see you're responding but will still post this so that everything's in one place as promised

[ready2rock]

While you're doing that, some thoughts on mavs vs VP

I think whether you think mavs or VP is scum would be down to whether you think mavs had played a sloppy scum game or whether VP has played a fairly clean scum game

mavs claim is easy to fake and possible that he's scum, but I've outlined why I'm inclined to believe the claim because there's too many things that don't make sense if he's making it up. Scummiest thing mavs has done is his progression day 2, but has felt a better more recently

VP has earned quite a bit of town cred over time, almost to a LAMIST degree at times. I'd say the biggest points against him are the ways that he was hard pressuring people on day 1 (which I pointed out and voted him for at the time), and the way that he's following the train of votes and putting people at L-1 today (though his reasoning has been sound and logically consistent)

If you had to make me choose between the two right now I'd probably say VP, but I've been going back and forth constantly throughout the day

I'm feeling pretty confident about votato, but I'll give him one more chance to address the points I just posted

[ready2rock]

Any case/points to consider for VP that you haven't brought up already that you want to make sure are put out there?

We're basically in twilight as far as I'm concerned unless you've somehow swayed mavs or VP. I do agree that VP is a bit more likely like I brought up earlier, but it's you>>>>>VP>mavs for me

[ready2rock]

Yeah like I said VP's been putting each of you at L-1 today and it's not a good look, and I really think it's him between VP and mavs. My only hesitation is the way you're tunneling right now (how would you transition from this onto somehow pushing someone else tomorrow?) but there are too many scummy and logically inconsistent things you've done the rest of this game for me that I'm relatively confident

VOTE: votato

Here's hoping I'm right and we can end this game

Since I probably won't get any more posts before the game's over, this has been a really interesting game and y'all have been great to play with!

[ready2rock]

@VP: the night you took out R2R I was sooo intrigued how you’d play that scenario. Whether you’d kill the tracker or opt to kill hellbooks and argue R2R fake claimed tracker. I figured there was a decent chance you’d do that (50/50) where the more obvious choice is to kill the tracker. That’s why I did tag R2R, to potentially get R2R if he was fake claiming and claimed he tracked me. But realized if he was fake claiming, he would’ve just said he tracked you and you killed hellbooks. Did killing hellbooks over R2R and trying to say R2R was fake claiming in lylo cross your mind of how to play that? I was kinda terrified of a scenario where R2R was going to survive to lylo basically being cleared from day 3 onward.

The thought did cross my mind to try to say he was faking tracker, but it felt like I had lower odds of convincing you on that than maybe swaying hellbrooks. Would you have actually been suspicious of r2r?

I do think the setup was maybe a little unbalanced! I need to read that review thread after work.

And I totally agree with you that we goofed with the Nauci kill over Blair! Blair's copping was a huge setback for us early in the game.

It also crossed my mind that you might try to pull a gambit like this (trying to say that I'm fake claiming), but I think the way you played it was probably the smartest

gg everyone. Haven't played many games on the site, but this one's definitely been my favorite so far. Thanks to Umlaut for modding!

[ready2rock]

I also like the disloyal fruit vendor because it was such a bizarre role that had us second guessing it. I don't think it was until my thought process post at 2343 that I had actually convinced myself that he was telling the truth, and had it not been for other circumstances, he might've gotten mislynched for it being too convenient

[ready2rock]

Never had to crumb a PR before, so I'm quite happy with my crumbs, especially since you specifically went out looking for them and didn't spot it, which means it was just the right amount of subtle.

You fought hard VP, I suspected you at the very start, and then you won me over to thinking you were town until the very end