Mini 595 - Game Over

[LlamaFluff]

/confirm

[LlamaFluff]

vote firechicago

im not a big soccer fan

[LlamaFluff]

Vote: LlamaFluff

Doesn't sound appealing

then you can call me fluffy, for some reason certain people have taken a liking to that shortening

im not sure how you also can call a random wagon pro-town really. while they are good for getting conversation going and seeing who jumps to and from wagons, they have a scum/players chance of being sucessful. Given that educated votes have a higher chance then that, I consider random wagons anti-town

[LlamaFluff]

Random vote wagons are silly, but not anti-town.

I didn't say random wagons were protown, I said they were

silly

.

So are wagons pro-town, anti-town or completely neutral in nature. You claim they *might* bring out scummy behavior, and you only list usually uneffective as the downfall.

What is your stance on these early wagaons? Silly is not an answer im looking for.

[LlamaFluff]

FOS: Firestarter and Iron Man

for trying to shut down the conversation just as it's getting rolling.

I might vote for a no-lynch eventually, but proposing one on page 2 is extremely premature.

wait what? So not only do you FoS the two people for making no lynch votes which are stopping our conversation, but say you might also vote a no-lynch?

Im not quite sure why you would consider a no lynch while the main reason for the FoS is the no lynch votes of FS (two fires, great) and IM. I also dont really agree that they shut down the conversation. They took the anti-wagon stance way to far, but there is still a convsersation going.

Im just wondering if a scum(bag) has hopped on the Fos of me & IM....

So Zombie is scum for calling you two out on voting no lynch? I would of done it too if I got here first.

two questions to you
1) Should we no lynch today?
2) If IM didnt vote no lynch first, would you of voted it?

[LlamaFluff]

My point was there's a world of difference between proposing a no lynch when conversation peters out on page 10 and there are no good options for a lynch, and proposing a no lynch in the midst of a conversation on page 2.

I agree with Iron Man and Firestarter that a no lynch is preferable to a completely random lynch, but vigorous scum-hunting followed by a non-random lynch is vastly preferable to either. I just think they're crazy and probably scummy for trying to derail what was a relevant conversation in favor of an early no lynch.

One of my problems with what you said though was you left the door wide open in your post for your eventual no lynch vote, you had not only the ability to throw a no lynch on later, but because of your current stance on the vote, use that as evidence to anyone who eventually would vote for a no-lynch. In a game like this, especially where there may not even be a cop, I see no point in a no-lynch, except for possibly a F4 situation. Im also not quite sure how that conversation was derailed by the comments, because we still are talking about the best D1 course of actions.

Just at this point we are no longer talking about wagons, but no votes, we are slowly covering different topics of D1 actions that people have stronge feelings about. They are not scummy for derailing a conversation, the conversation has just changed topics as the first one was nearing an end. They are scummy for a vote no lynch though, especially as it was tied for majority option at one point.

[LlamaFluff]

With no deadline, we could go on for many pages and get pretty much no where, and I'm an impatient guy.

Why would you want to make a quick lynch? As the day goes on we are able to make a more informed choice because we know more about other players.

Yes, there was no danger of lynch on Crazy Vlad but I felt that the "No Lynch" option had to be thrown at least once.

Why does a no lynch option need to be thrown out there?

[LlamaFluff]

it is my view that a person's reaction

after

a potentially deadly night phase is more telling than base discussion on Day 1. Granted, I may be wrong about this, but I hope I'm not.

Well im going to go out on a limb and say you are wrong. A "Day" here is not 24 hours, there is a lot of information gathered by the end of the day, from that an informed decision is obtainable. I trust that I can come to an informed decision about who should be lynched day one, and I hope that you will be able to as well.

I also dont see how seeing how people react to night mode really helps us in the search for scum. Maybe you can explain what actions you look for there, because im not too sure what you could be looking for.

FoS Iron Man

[LlamaFluff]

I'm just doubting how much information we can really gather after just Day 1. I severly doubt that anyone is gonna drop a ballbuster that reveals everything, but comparing the Day 1 statements, the outcome of Night 1, and any Day 2 statements, we could formulate a much better image on who may or may not be scum. This opinoin may be result of my lack of expirience in MS games, but this is how I am currently seeing it. So why throw a random lynch that has a good chance of hitting a townie when we could wait one night and have a better chance of lynching scum tomarrow?

Why are you so intent on seeing a no lynch today? And a quick one at that. By just rushing through day one we are just going to be in the same spot tomorrow we are now, this time though we will have one player missing and according to you logic, use that to decide the lynch.

Also you are jumping to the poor conclusion that any lynch today would be random while it would not be. I was pushed to L-2 early on randoms, but am not there anymore. At this point we are starting to vote based on peoples actions and comments.

Two more questions

1) Do you still think a no lynch is the best option
2) Let say we do

somehow

get to a no lynch, I get NK. Does that mean everyone else should lynch you since I am challenging you?

--------

Other things

- I would like firestarter to answer my Q1 as well
- I would like to hear more from jas, reaper and reality

[LlamaFluff]

Question to all: Why not firestarter? He followed ironman his possible scumpal.

You see, although theres been a couple of guys here to make a big deal of the 2 "No Lynch" votes, they have decided to ask questions first, and possibly lynch later. You on the other hand, are going straight for the kill.

Why dont you start the voting on me alvin, instead of seeing what others might do first. You've left your breadcumb to jump on anything that may start against me with this post... and although its early in the game, so to speak, youve jumped to the top of my list.... which, by the way, contains no-one else.

Hypocritical much here? You yourself have just breadcrumbed to a vote on alvin, now if anyone starts a wagon you can say "hey look I had suspicions of him D1!" Just like what he did to you here.

For a "no lynch" vote to occur, it will take more than just 2 votes xast to make this happen, so really, your barking up the wrong tree on this one.

However, if others follow, then you could ask the questions of those.

So you claim your vote isnt suspicious but a third is? Was your vote a ingenius sceme to trick mafia into voting no lynch then too?

I take it you didn't see my reply then....

I still dont see your reply, unless what ive already quoted was it. I agree with reality though, you did seem to deflect my question back to me without really answering it as I had hoped you would.

I think its time to

unvote,
vote firestarter

[LlamaFluff]

Unvote Iron Man

I agree he has raised some suspicions, but thing are evolving a little too quickly for me
I'm thinking a

FoS Xanatos

would not hurt for the time being. I hate easy bandwagons...

This was interesting to find during a read-through

Well lets break this down a bit (heh break down a 30 word post). You say that the case on Iron is evolving too fast for you. Looking back at the time of your post, Iron had three votes on him, one of which was yours, and one FoS. That is hardly a quickly evolving case. For some reason though it credited an unvote.

So you decide to vote Xan, because he voted for Iron. You agree with the suspicions on Iron though, so why is Xan scum for deciding to vote him? You call the third vote a bandwagon, im not so sure having three votes on someone for doing an ascenine move such as a no vote really calls for the b-word. Its a perfectly valid vote to me, and I want to know why someone is scummy to you for attacking an already scummy person?

[LlamaFluff]

@llama
I did not vote xanatos, I made a FoS.
and that it is because not like others around here I'm not rushing for a speed lynch. not even of Ironman. Other options should be analyzed. To me it seemed that at this point Ironman was registering four votes, maybe I was wrong and there were three. however, as I've given initially a random vote, I felt properly to make a more proper guess. The fact that xanatos acted so quickly for me it was worthy enough for a FoS, again, not a vote. I hope it's clear now...

unfortunately

through what they've said yesterday, ironman and firestarter are looking now more suspicious, at least to me. their replies only deepened their problem. again, I would no rush for a hasty vote. until a deadline will be set we have all the time...

Why is this unfortunate that they are looking scummy? You seem to imply that you are planning to vote one of them in the future so you sure think that one or more is scum. By saying unfortunate, it makes me sound like you know that they are citizens and dont want to vote one out, or, one is your scumbuddy that you dont want to lose D1

---Questions---
What has made Iron and firestarter more suspicious?
Do you feel Xan deserves a vote or FoS from you now for his vote?
If the deadline was tomorrow who would you vote?
Who is more scummy, Iron or Firestarter?

[LlamaFluff]

@llama
unfortunately for them, because in my opinion their messages from page 2-3 seemed to be more

suspicious than the previous ones

. with every message both of them seemed to go

deeper into their problem

. I said is unfortunately that

I have given them a chance by canceling my vote, and after that they only seemed to move from worse to worser

,

Answer me this then: Do you think either one, or both, of these players are scum. Given what I have bolded, you seem to either be dead set that each of them is a citizen, or, do not want to vote for them given some information that we do not know.

Why are you not voting them if you yourself are admitting that they are looking increasingly scummy? Why are you not asking them questions to either confirm or reject your suspicions? Right now you seem perfectly content with letting me and zombie be ask the questions, as you from the sidelines shake your head.

[LlamaFluff]

@llama I 've got the feeling you don't get. I said that right now they may seem most suspicious, but this doesn't mean that I should just accept this and don't look anymore. I thought it was pretty clear. If you are positive that this two guys are mafia, ok, I'm not sure. for ex. XaN didn't post anything since I've put the FoS on him. but this is of no interest for you i suppose...even you may be regarded suspicious as you insist just on his without any regard to other's messages, or lack of messages. If you analyse, do it for everybody not just for 2 players.

well im certaintly analyzing for you right now, ive already done some analyzing for chicago earlier so you cant really call me on getting tunnel vision at this point. You just happen to be related to my top suspect with some odd words, and im sure you can see how this would provoke questions from me like I have been asking.

then we have people like you, who seem to just be doing as little as possible you have a (joke?) OMGUS random of iron, and the unvote/FoS. After that you said nothing untill I came and challenged you. How is not scumhunting a pro-town move in this game? You always need to be trying to figure things out. If you think Xan is scum, post, ask him questions, analyze! Dont just sit there and disagree with me for trying to do things.

You say that iron/FS are the most suspicious, im certaintly not going to disagree. I dont really get why you have not asked them one question though. Going back to what ive said already, you are not scum-hunting. It does not matter one bit if you agree or disagree with the way im playing this game, and how I choose to look at my suspects, you need to play your part. If you never are going to scumhunt, you never are going to be of use in this game.

You also are misrepresenting me. I am not 100% Iron/FS scum pair OMGZ!! I think that there is a very high chance that one of them is scum yes, but im not ready to say "hey they are our next two lynches ok guys!" Part of my reason for pushing the FS lynch here, is I get a scummy feeling from his answers to the questions people have been asking him.

[LlamaFluff]

@llama...frankly I don't know if it worth to enter with you on a page to page debate. of course you can play however you like. i was just trying to make you to consider, not necessarily to make, other options. I admit that for me it's a little strange that you have pushed on me from the moment I take back my random vote...so if let's say hypothetical iron and fire are not mafia, and you are scum, than your action is understandable.

Im pushing you because I thought your actions were wierd, you seem to be more or less torn on FS/iron. Ive been prodding you to see exactly where you stand on them, because you havent done a great job in my opinion laying out what exactly you feel is going on with both of them, and your guesses at their alignment.

You are saying that you are trying to push me to find other suspects. That is all well and good, I have others in you and chicago, so mission accomplished there.

Also, lets not play they "you are scum and this is what you did game" if you want I can return fire there, but that usually is just a waste of time and posts.

on the other hand you forced me to sound very pro to both of them and if either one of them is getting to be lynched and prove to be though mafia, I'll be a good lynching candidate for being the first one to make any doubts and peeing against the wind, as I've said earlier.

I didn't say that they are mafia or not, they look pretty scummy, I just didn't want, and still don't want to see things rushed.

I am pushing you for the actions regarding these two players of course. You yourself said that Iron/FS are scummy many times in this game, there seems to be a lack of movement either way from you though in pushing for a lynch of them, or of anyone else. I personally see no real reason for you just sitting back and not taking any action regarding these two players, especially if you think they are either a bad lynch, or are scum.

I do agree with dont rush things, but you seem to be trying to delay things and not getting the needed conversation done at the same time. I guess what I am saying is; if you are trying to slow things down, thats fine with me, just make use of the extra time. There is no reason to slow the day while only FS/Iron are being pushed, and you sit back doing nothing.

A question though: Deadline is today, who do you vote?

and I'm saying once again, you criticized me for putting a FoS on XaN, but he didn't post anything since....

for me it was odd that until amor no one else had at list consider other options and that everybody was satisfied with their votes...

I criticized your FoS because it made no sense to me. You still seem to hold by the fact that Iron and Xan are scummy, but when Xan threw on a vote to someone you already considered scummy, it made him even more scummy?

And im considering you now, and have been since pg. 4, so once again, lets not start complaining about everyone getting tunnel vision, especially as you seemingly are locked in on Xan.

Im going to run through some things about your play and I want you to tell me if they are true or not.

1) Iron, FS and Xan are the scummiest players.
2) You seem to want to delay a D1 lynch for as long as you can.
3) Everyone else has asked everything you feel is needed to be asked.
4) Is Iron or FS a bad lynch?

[LlamaFluff]

In contradiction to one of your questions LF, you seem pretty intent on getting a lynch done, and getting it done as quickly as possibly.

1. why do you want this, when clearly no info has been gathered from alot of other players?

To me, there are lurkers here, and your lack of "picking anything up" from my last post, makes me even more suspicious of you.

I just would rather there be more conversation then a quick lynch, right now im pressuring previously lurky CV to post, since I stopped asking FC questions he has gone lurky, in fact most players are at this point.

If tomorrow there was a sudden explosion of posts and we hit page 10, I would be perfectly fine with someone being lynched. Right now you are the main concept of discussion, so I am pushing people to act on you, which in turn causes people to talk and stimulates discussion.

While I wish that people would pick up other suspects, this is partially your job too. Right now you are just dicking around it seems hoping that your softclaim saves you. You are up for lynch, and you really arent taking a big pro-town stance over it. I want to see you do something here, make a suspect, push a case. Just dont insult my gameplay because you feel it just targets you.

In addition, if there was a deadline today, you certainly would be in consideration for my vote as one of my pet peeves is softclaiming. I however am not becoming a snarling beast just attacking you. If you have at all been paying attention to what ive been doing, im content with asking CV questions concerning his thoughts on the whole no lynch situation we had.

The lurkers are annoying of course, jas, RF, FC, SD are the ones I can name off the top of my head, if I can make them post I sure would, I dont have that ability though, so will do what I can with what has been presented to me. Hint hint mod, prods please.

So im not sure what you really want from me with that question. Im not only asking you questions, im not trying to get people to vote you this instant, im trying to stimulate conversation over you.

If you have any other questions then "why are you trying to get my lynched", I will be happy to answer them though.

[LlamaFluff]

LlamaFluff, why are you so suspicious of Xan right now? He's made 1 serious post, which was jumping on a bandwagon. DOesn't seem like a lot to go on, looks to me like he just flaked.

thats not me , thats vlad

[LlamaFluff]

You know what I find weird? Firestarter posted reasoning for his voting no lynch, then Iron Man posted reasoning and a vote, than Firestarter posted his vote. It almost seems like Firestarter is following Iron Man's lead. Unless two people were struck by the stupid idea to no lynch at the same time, this is rather suspicious.

Alternately Firestarter wanted to vote no lynch, but waited until another person did it so that he wouldn't stand out for accusation.

Either way, this makes FS look scummy, so I'll Vote: Firestarter

True is definitely looks scummy, but it could also be interpreted as Firestarter being really careful and not wanting to look scummy by following behind someone. He could be mafia, but he could also be a an intimidated town. You your bold sent can apply to almost anyone mafia or not.

Well we haven’t heard much of you for a long time, and a lot has progressed on FS since you posted this. You still aren’t voting at this point so are doing a great job of staying noncommittal to this whole No Lynch incedent. It would be nice to know where you stand on this soon.

Realityfan... One who likes to ask questions, thats been his core post in this thread, but they have been questions that have already been asked before him. IMO, offers nothing with his posts, and does not follow them up having been answered, again, others are picking up from his initial poking... another one who's in the shadows and needs to show more.

QFT, time to do some scumhunting dude

@vald (again I know)

Xan voted for Iron, not for FS. You seem to say that Xan is scum for pushing the bandwagon onto Iron. What does this make you think about FS though, as he was not the chosen target? Does the person chosen even matter to you in this situation or are they both still town and Xan still scum.

@FS Im really bad at picking up roleclaim hints so I consider more then most people do softclaims, especially in this type of game where not all roles are even known. For that reason I tend to still be adverse to anything but coming straight out and saying a role.

Given what has been going on though, its time to

unvote

[LlamaFluff]

Ok, this game has gotten too quiet. Time for some thinking.

Im liking alvin95 a lot more given his question to Amor about his unvote of FS. The whole

Deflecting onto lurkers? Firestarter is so scum.

that usually isnt coupled with an unvote. Right now FS has two votes I think, maybe three (

mod votecount hint hint

), so you really arent going to be putting him at L-1 or hammering him.

While I normally would regard this change of stance due to the claim we had, this post was after the claim. This means that Amor was uneffected by it.

I would like to know your current stance on FS.

-----

jas - you really need to do something helpful here soon. You made a condecending comment at Iron for his bad post, and you seem to jump on reality for his response. This confuses me a bit because your post has some suggestion to it that both of these players are scum. Your comment seems to be a bit of a streach to smear reality a bit too, he didnt seem to imply that he wanted a FS lynch to me. You also are very lurkey to me, only emmerging to put pressure on Iron (post 66) and then to pressure reality for what I still say is a very good post (121)

vlad - I still want an answer to 115. Also Xan seems to be headed for replacement, will that cause an unvote given your reasoning for vote, or will you persue this case.

reality - I like your question to Iron, I just want to see more out of you in the terms of case building in the future, you seem to be holding back.

Iron - As reality said, I dont like the way you returned to the game by admitting a lurker attitude in order to cast suspicion on others. I would like it if you started contributing more

For now though, at least untill I hear more from him, I am going to go and

vote [jas]

[LlamaFluff]

Also:

Your comment seems to be a bit of a streach to smear reality a bit too, he didnt seem to imply that he wanted a FS lynch to me. You also are very lurkey to me, only emmerging to put pressure on Iron (post 66) and then to pressure reality for what I still say is a very good post (121)

Actually no smear intended at all, just wanting to clarify something. Reality's post seemed to assume we were soon going to see FS's alignment (read: he was going to be lynched). I was wondering why he was so sure this was going to happen.

Well it really wasnt intended to make reality look better, so that only leaves one option to me.

I also had a problem with the who and how aspects of what happened, now a little more so.

THE WHO - You attacked reality, who had been fairly lurkey for this game. When I saw his post on Iron, I had hoped that he was starting to become more active. As a newer player which given his style of play im assuming he is, it would be fairly traumatic for him to immediately be brought under some suspicion himself for trying to build a case on Iron. Your actions here could very well of been a passive defense of him.

THE HOW - A gun and run situation occured. When you really suspect someone or want more information about what had occured, you follow up on their response with another post. Given how fast you dropped the whole reality situation, I dont think that you really thought that the comment was that big of a deal.

Now im left with the confusing situation of your last few posts. In 66 you put pressure of Iron, but in 121 you put pressure on reality, for putting pressure on Iron. Now given your lack of posting (grrr) you may think that now Iron is not suspicious, or reality is a great scum pick, I really dont know which it is, since I know next to nothing about your thoughts. This is why I want you to post a little more too, even if its a brief thought on a player.

So a few questions:

1) Is Iron or Reality more scummy?
2) Is FS or Iron more scummy?
3) If you could auto-lynch anyone, who would it be right now?

[LlamaFluff]

It's true that he's not presently in danger of lynch, but if so, my voting him is pretty useless anyway, right?

I am going to disagree with that statement. A vote is a vote, it implies everything, it forces people to act, it becomes evidence in later rounds. To me, if you really think he is scum, you should be voting him right now. There is a big difference in; I think FS is scum and I am voting FS because I think he is scum.

FS is not at L-1 right now, in fact he is at L-4. I see no reason for you not to be voitng him right now. It increases pressure on your scum suspect and strengthens your stance. The only two ways I can see you not wanting to vote him involve you being scum.

[LlamaFluff]

THE WHO - You attacked reality, who had been fairly lurkey for this game. When I saw his post on Iron, I had hoped that he was starting to become more active. As a newer player which given his style of play im assuming he is, it would be fairly traumatic for him to immediately be brought under some suspicion himself for trying to build a case on Iron. Your actions here could very well of been a passive defense of him.

Please dont treat me like a baby, even thought I am a newer mafia player. If you find something I say scummy, tell me about it, and I'll explain why I said it. Honestly, I would rather have you disagree, and then I would have something to respond to.

Well I didnt mean to offend you with my post, and im sorry if I did. I found the fact that jas finally opened a bit of an attack on a player who was exhibiting lurker tendancies odd.

From what I saw, you were making a push to become actively involved in the game, and jas very quickly turned suspicion on you, which I think was not the right move there. You comment to me didnt scream scum, so I found it odd that its the first thing in a long time that jas decided to comment on.

My response there was due to the concern that jas was trying to intimidate players out of becoming active, and trying to push cases. Then again I dont know enough about jas right now, especially regarding the fact that he seems to find Iron suspicious and you suspicious for the push against Iron.

So again, sorry if I offended you, it wasnt my intention. I guess if this is going to make you more active thought I really cant complain!

[LlamaFluff]

Sorry for not contributing. (Also sorry for the unnessecary double post.)

Vote Firestarter

Happy now?

Not really...

This is not what I had in mind when I said that you should be actively contributing. Anyone can just slap on a vote and then disappear, we saw that with Xan who is now replaced, and zombie/FC are both not too active anymore, but are voting. In fact they are both voting FS, interesting fact.

So lets start with a pretty big

FoS Iron Man

for your wierd little move here.

Now, when I asked for actively contributing, I ment aiding the discussion that is currently in progress, or starting a new one. So If you could answer these three questions:

1) Why are you voting firestarter, even after his claim?
2) What are your thoughts on; jas, FC and amor?
3) If you could auto-lynch firestarter right now, would you?

[LlamaFluff]

3. No, I wouldnt auto-lynch. An auto-lynch takes away from the town what is rightfully theirs: the power of majority. When a majority of people decide that such and such is scum, then such and such is lynched, but discusion shall have ensued. Just because I voted for FS doesnt mean that he is 100% scum. I could be wrong. But the fact is, with my vote, more wheels begin to turn in other people's heads as to whether or not he is scum or not.

Let me modify that question so you cant avoid it:

If you could hammer firestarter would you?

[LlamaFluff]

I would also like to mention LlamaFluff in here too...
Altough it would seem that he is doing the right thing by asking questions to everyone, and trying to get them to post, and in the odd post, making reference to other players who might be scum.. I dont think there has been a post from him where he hasn't put pressure on me with trying to get others to vote for me... There may be one or two, but he has the majority posts in here, and 1 or 2 posts is a small ratio compared to the amount of times my name has been mentioned in his posts.

Well, you honestly are the center of attention at this point in the game. If I am asking people questions about you its because I want to know where people stand on you. I am not necessarily trying to make people vote for you, what I am doing is pressuring people to ACT on you, like Iron, vlad and amor. They just come to the conclusion that you are the best vote.

These people are not acting accordingly to what their posts say they are planning to act, and I am trying to get them to take a stance. Are they citizens unsure of themselves? Mafia afraid to be on the early wagon of a citizen? Mafia not wanting to bandwagon if they can get a mislynch? I dont know, and thats what im trying to determine at this point.

You're defense isnt the greatest in the world either, although I have to say I like what you pointed out against me, its something I wasnt aware that I was doing to the extent I am, plus it shows that you are paying attention. While that in itself by no means absolves you of a lynch, it lessens the need for one. Simply put, if I had the option on a hammer on you right now, I wouldnt be taking it.

The best thing for you here is to find a suspect and start pushing a case, it proves that you are actively scumhunting. I am doing that with jas right now, you seem to be starting to do that with Zombie in...

ZS is a good candidate for looking into at this stage, because as soon as my "No Lynch" was cast, he has been the single most "tunnel-visioned" player to jump on my BW! He's also been curiously inactive here since he last placed his vote on me... maybe he's happy with what he's seeing from a distance? I dont know....

Now see, that a great thing, just build up a case and push it, convince me, convince others. That is what you try to do in this game, get people lynched.

However (note this is what im doing to other people, it just involves you) you are voting Iron. Now, are you more suspect of Iron or Zombie right now, you are posting that you want people to look at ZS, but havent taken the initiative to vote him yet, or build a more in-depth case.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama, my lurkiness has been due to being really busy of late and not having the time to devote to this. I'm hoping to have a chance to do a full read-through come Monday night, I'll post complete thoughts then. Until then

I'll drop a comment in

if I notice something

(like I did for reality...), but I'll go and read through completely in a couple of days. Hope that's okay with you all.

Its been quite a few days now, and still no post, still no vote, still no vocal opinions. You still are playing a lurker game, we are continuing on without you. This applies to SDR too of course, but you I have suspicions of.

Your line I bolded really bothers me though. You claim that you are busy, yet will act if you notice something. I really am concerned that one of the only things you have noticed is a post by reality that I think you blew way out of porportion. There have been lots of other things going on in the game, you havent been wieghing in, these have occured before and after the RF quote.

FS and Iron seem to be the ones moving to a lynch, but I encourage people to take a look at jas here, he is a great mafia suspect to me, and I think that everyone owes it to the town to take a look at him.

@Firestarter: You seem suspect of Zombie, me and FaerieLord, you should try and make some convincing cases to try and start getting them/me lynched.

@Zombie: Firestarter already said it, but I will say it too. Your post is horrible, it just wreaks of tunnel vison and scum. The timing of your post is odd, right after FS threatened you a bit. You drop Iron without really giving us a good reason. You say FS gets scummier, without any decent reasons. So to me, answering what FS asked you is a good start, but it would be nice to hear more of you on other subjects.

Also Zombie, what is your thought on Firestarters claim? You left that out completely and its something that I consider pretty important at this point.

Finally - I havent said it yet so welcome FaerieLord.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama, my lurkiness has been due to being really busy of late and not having the time to devote to this. I'm hoping to have a chance to do a full read-through come Monday night, I'll post complete thoughts then. Until then I'll drop a comment in if I notice something (like I did for reality...), but

I'll go and read through completely in a couple of days.

Hope that's okay with you all.

Its now six days... im still waiting for you, and still voting for you

I will do an analysis of the FS/ZS/FL banter later tonight when I have more time.

[LlamaFluff]

Ok first of all, that whole debate was very painful to read. A few words of advice for my sake and yours, first for ZS, Paragraphs are your friends, they make things easier to follow. Secondly, consider numbering questions AND responses, once again, it makes it easy for us to follow.

Before analysis though, to FS. You need to calm down a bit, you are coming across as crazy to me in your posts by the end of this argument. It is just a game after all. Sometimes the best cure for it is to go take a jog/walk/drinking binge (only if you are of age) and just come back to the game the next day.

Some points I have seen that do make some sense though -

1) Breadcrumb situation is just over the top confusing to me, I cant tell what FS is arguing, and what ZS is responding. FS you did seem to make an attempt at breadcrumbing early in the game, so you cant deny that you really have been playing with your cards close to your chest this whole time. When you are at L-1, you should claim, not breadcrumb.

LF, mine was not a softclaim at all.... but my post with my claim needs to be read carefully...

2) Zombie, being "99% sure" that FS is scum is to me insulting when you realize that the question was are you 100% sure im scum. That just is asking for a bit of a flame war. Also, if you are 99% sure he is scum, lets have the whole case laid out.

3) Zombie, your stance of “I don’t want to share my suspicions” is about as untown as you can get. There should be no reason to fear putting your thoughts out in the open. We are not going to lynch you for giving us ideas, I am more inclined to lynch you for refusing to share. I am out here coming up with ideas, piecing together cases, and you sit back and agree. This is easily described as scum trying to not accidently incriminate their partner when they flip.

4) Firestarter again. Don’t get so whipped out over FL’s comment of don’t be a comedian, while saying that was not necessary, for EITHER of you (FS it takes away from the case, FL you made his case look weaker by pointing it out). Still, by attacking her like you are, once again you are really detracting from what your goal should be, which is to lynch scum. FS with the quote you changed up, that also is a slander attack. Neither of you should be doing that as town.

5) Again the breadcrumb argument surfaces. I don’t know WHAT either of you were even trying to prove here, honestly. I don’t know if the debate is someone accusing another of breadcumbing or what. I will say this though once and squiggly it

~~~~~~~In my opinion, the bolded words in post 101 were an attempt at breadcrumbing~~~~~~


So wrapping up… you guys are confusing. Its hard to get a good read on what happened due to the confusion going on during most of the posts. However

I like the emotion from FS, that usually is a town tell

Can you make a revamped case against Zombie that has NO MENTION of the breadcrumb?

Zombie, can you lay out a case against Firestarter?

Faerie (odd spelling) you seem to make a lot of nonpartisan comments, but lean to FS being scum. Which of these two players would you vote for as a tiebreaker?

And not related to any of you… jas! Once again, after I comment on your inactivity, you come back fairly soon and say why you have been inactive. I look forward to a writeup within the week.

[LlamaFluff]

With that said, I will point to the fact I was not breadcrumbing with my claim.
Its in black & white,

it may make sense at a later stage

, but for now, Ill put a lid on that one.

*opens lid*

To me what I bolded is an acceptable definition of breadcrumbing.

So then, if it is not breadcrumbing, why did you need to say it cryptically?
Also, why do you feel the need to withhold information from us? Its something that you faulted zombie for, and you seem to be doing it too.

[LlamaFluff]

But I was not breadcrumbing.

How about this, are you a vanilla townie?

I actually would say dont answer this unless you are at L-1, claiming when you arent close to a lynch inst a good thing.

At this point though I think its time for a recap of the players in the game, as most of our leads are losing momentum. I will try and do a reread tonight.

[LlamaFluff]

Okay, Firestarter has been discussed to death, so I'm going to look at some of the people who have posted less frequently.

alvinz97: 11 posts in total. Seems to follow the majority opinion, I'm not seeing a lot of original ideas. One to keep an eye on.

firechicago: 8 posts in total. Raised the curious idea of eventually voting for no lynch after there's more info. Admits that he's been lurking. I dunno, not really seeing much scummy here.

RealityFan: 12 posts in total, all of them are one- or two-liners. Nothing especially scummy in there, but he really isn't posting much of anything.

SD_Reaper: 4 posts in total. The last one was two weeks ago. Needs to be replaced if he doesn't post soon.

Of these four, the only one who's suspicious to me is alviz, for echoing others a lot. The rest are all standard lurkers, really can't say one way or the other. I'd like all four to post more, and give us their views of the game.

I realize that I am not the most active player myself, which is no one's fault but my own, but I'll try to make solid contributions.

no jas? I still consider him to be a high suspect and he just keeps posting reasons for not contributing, the analysis post he promised just keeps getting delayed.

I agree that SDR needs another prod or replacement though at this point

[LlamaFluff]

mod

can we maybe get a round of prods here, would be nice to bring some life back into this game since it is dying out right now

[LlamaFluff]

Sorry for not posting, just wrapped up the process of leaving my job, and my mind's been other places.

But now that I don't have silly things like a job to distract me from what's really important (i.e. mafia) you'll have my undivided attention.

A more substantive post to follow as soon as I do a readthrough, and have some analysis to post.

Im reminded of a politicians speech here – I promise you good times, I promise you economic growth, I promise no new taxes. And much like those politicians, we get screwed and nothing comes true.

Hmm, so I had hoped that my reread would bring exciting new insights, but unfortunately, it didn't. I still think Firestarter's defenses of himself have been unconvincing, and I think he's the most likely scum, with Iron man a close second.

It seems to me that there are only two options at this point, with the conversation winding down. Either we go ahead and lynch Firestarter and cross our fingers that he's scum and not just a townie who doesn't know what he's doing, or we table that whole discussion for the moment and starting using our votes and posts to put some pressure on the lurkers.

Personally, I'm 50/50 on either, so my vote's staying on Firestarter and I'll encourage others to join unless someone comes up with a plan to get some more (and more varied) activity in the thread.

So Firestarter is scum, lets hear why. Like Zombie, you should lay out a case, not just scream at us for being ignorant enough not to lynch him because so say so. At least you are voting him, but I see no real backing to your vote.

Then you go on to talk about how IM is probally scum, same concept applies, you aren’t pushing very hard for his lynch is you think he is scum.

Now you give us two options, both which I don’t like. You first say we lynch FS and

cross our fingers

that he is scum. I really don’t know about you, but if I am going to lynch someone, im doing a hell of a lot more then crossing my fingers and hoping they are scum.

You second choice is prod-vote basically, which I really don’t like. Prods are the mods job. If someone is inactive they get replaced with someone who is active. Throwing away a vote to simply prod someone is just another way to take a neutral scum stance on what is happening in the game.

Then you actually complain that there are no targets apart from FS, while this is alarming, your wording sits poorly with me. I don’t want FS lynched right now, I have him leaning town in my book. Because I don’t feel like he is the right lynch, I am looking for scum, not waiting for people to bring me suspicions that I can analyze later.

Right now you are just kicking back, even with the “extra time” you now have on your hands. I look forward to hearing cases on FS and anyone else that you feel needs one.

A big ol’

HoS Firechicago

for now, if it wasnt for jas needing extra motivation it would be a full-fledged vote. Lets see a case.

----------

[jas] hows that post coming? I know you have a few more days but it would be nice to hear something soon.

FaerieLord – Who are you voting? I was skimming posts and it looked like Iron inheritance still but might of missed something.

[LlamaFluff]

Ok welcome shadowgirl first off. I have some general questions though that I feel that you should answer given that you just replaced into the game. You really never did give a good recap of what happened to me, just zeroed in on FS, which really doesnt help alieviate my suspicions of CV who you just replaced.

1) What is your take on the FS/ZS argument?
2) What are your opinons on [jas] and firechicago?
3) Who else part from FS is scummy?

-----

Firestarter, I think this will be the last time that I open this can of worms, but what did the bolded parts of post 101 mean, if anything. There is no reason to not reveal what they ment at this point unless its a role claim, that is L-1 material.

[LlamaFluff]

@

mod

maybe prods on firechicago, realtiyfan, jas and ironman would be good here.

-------

continuing on to the brunt of the post though: Shadowgirl, a few questions ive came up with given what you have presented us from the re-read.

I will start with the obvious of: Why arent you voting? You have called zombie, FS suspicious flat out. However you also seem to hint at amor and firechicago pretty suspicious, but a lot more subtley. By calling nearly every player in the game suspicious, you are able to easily shuffle around your vote to the player who lynch fits you bets.

Its time to pick a top suspect, and start presenting a case.

Second - You have failed to mention me, alvinz, realityfan and FaerieLord in your recaps. Are we just pro-town to you?

Next - What is making Zombie seem so scummy to you? You seem to be alluding to wanting a FS lynch, but fell back on zombie as more suspicious.

Last - Pretend you are a one shot vig, who is your target and why?

-----

FaerieLord - At first pass you look to be a good contributor to the discussion, which mostlyinvolved the incomprehesable conversation between FS and ZS, the basic equivilant of a tornado hitting a newspaper plant. Upon a reread though, there are certain aspects of your play that ring bells for me.

It started with Iron man. Everything regarding him has been wierd to me. You replaced in voting him, and in your first big post, looked like you were going to be turning up the pressure. You even list him as "probable scum".

Your attention snaps right to FS though, Iron is no longer an issue for you. In my three questions to Iron, which I still feel the answers to were sub-par, you just ignore. Instead you fall back on Iron answering your megapost questions.

Then comes the squabble between FS/ZS. You never voted either of them to my knowlage, Iron was your vote for this entire conversation. This did not stop you though from taking sides and really fueling this fire for a while. Things like

I just dislike bad cases.

What the hell? Way to go to turn a serious case into funny farm

You see, this is another bad case.

That's what I told you before! At least you're taking it into reasoning now

They seemed to help fan the flames. You never did take a strong stance on this either way though. You simply seemed to criticize both players, and keep having them post ill about eachother.

Going back to Iron though, you voted him all the way up to the moment I brought up who are you voting. Only then do you unvote, and only because he has gone quiet. He STILL hasnt answered the questions that you posed to him. He just went lurky on you. I dont see how that moves him down your suspicion list and not up it.

I feel you should be voting though, you were involved closely with the FS/ZS conflict, you had a whole list of town/neutral/scum when you replaced in, and now you are just picking at FS.

Who is scum? Why?

Its time for you to vote and make a case

unvote
vote: FaerieLord

Im going to still keep a

FoS [jas]

though

[LlamaFluff]

ergh, forgot to add on, alvinz and jas, im looking forward to a recap post and vote from both of you here soon.

[LlamaFluff]

They seemed to help fan the flames. You never did take a strong stance on this either way though. You simply seemed to criticize both players, and keep having them post ill about eachother.

Precisely. The longer the debate, the longer one can slip. What's bad about that?

Two reasons from me, first I consider what you did, standing back while you wind up two players to eachother scummy. That is basically asking for chaos which ended up happening, and I for one got nothing out of it. Second, this one is more me though, I think you were knowingly pitting two town aligned players against eachother, and waiting for one of them to slip up.

I think you also know that getting someone really worked up is a great way to have someone say something stupid that gets them lynched, town or scum.

Going back to Iron though, you voted him all the way up to the moment I brought up who are you voting. Only then do you unvote, and only because he has gone quiet. He STILL hasnt answered the questions that you posed to him. He just went lurky on you. I dont see how that moves him down your suspicion list and not up it.

What I said before. I never voted this game. I vote only when I'm pretty sure someone is scum, and right now, I'm not sure anyone is scum

Decent enough evasion. The point I was trying to make is Iron has done nothing to alleviate suspicions that you laid out when you first arrived, and to me everything he has done only furthers your inital reasons to vote him. So where do you stand on him now?

Who is scum? Why?

I ask you the same question.

Now, to who

I think

is scum. Just look at the first list. It hasn't changed

Now lets not be smug with is/think here. You seem to say that Iron and FS are scum with a point back at the first list. Lets hear a case against them then.

[LlamaFluff]

It was their debate! I had nothing in it. Firestarter accused Zombie of Tunnel Vision, did you expect me to go in and defend ZS? Also, stop making a big deal out of their tirade between each other. Had I not been in there, the tirade would have still happened. At best all I did was "fuel the fires", but tell me, what use is it to fuel the fires against someone that is highly suspected by town anyway (firestarter) or someone that nobody other than firestarter is attacking. If I wanted to fuel fires, I'd do it on someone with medium suspicion like Jas.

Yes the whole argument would of happened, I feel that you intentionally prolonged it though, in such a way that either player, regardless of alignment, had a higher chance of saying something scummy out of anger.

You yourself said about fueling fires "It gives them a higher chance of slipping up". If you really agreed with that, it seems that fueling fires is of more use against high suspects like FS instead of people like jas as you say later in the quote.

You are missing the point. I never had initial reasons to vote him. I rarely vote and what Iron Man has done does not make me think "Yepp, he's scum!" so I wasn't, am not and will not vote Iron Man until I have that thought

I thought he was scummy though from your inital post?

Oh come on, don't be hypocritical now. What cases have you put up? All you have done is prod Jas for posts and agree with everyone else, while posting more content. Telling me to post a case is calling the kettle black.

You want cases? Let me point to them for you.

I pushed CV (now SG) case early in the game quite a bit
Case against jas - post 130
Case against firechicago - post 214
Case against you - ongoing

I guess in the end one of my biggest problem is despite how much you have been contributing to this game, you still have failed to take any strong stace towards an lynch. That is a safe spot for scum as they are not going to take mislynch heat, or be called for defending a scumbuddy since they can easily vote them.

Now I hear a lot of "I want to be sure" comments from people like you, lets be honest though, we NEVER will be 100% sure on anyones alignment unless they are confirmed scum by a confirmed cop with a confirmed insanity. We make cases to try and get as close to that 100% as possible, but we never are 100% sure.

I dont see how you can fail to make any cases though, am I 100% sure about any of my suspects? Of course not, but thats why I make cases and ask questions, it raises the certainty aspect of the game. Just answer me this; Why dont you make a case on anyone?

[LlamaFluff]

Ok for FaerieLord, I think a lot of my scumtells coming from you may really be a complete difference in playstyle. I more enjoy a hyperagressive game style where I vote and make cases quite a bit. You seem to be a very conservative player who really would rather plan out their moves perfectly before you take action. Just one final question: When will you be ready to vote?

---

For now though this game just seems near dead with only four or five active players.

mod

can we get a prod on just about every player, and at this point probally a replacement for SD_Reaper

---

Jas still hasnt posted much if at all, and firechicago as once again gone missing. I personally think that the lynch should be one of these two players today. They both are high on my scumlist, and are not showing signs of being active and helpful.

unvote
vote firechicago

[LlamaFluff]

Sorry I haven't been posting more, I haven't seen a lot to comment on recently.

Maybe you should look at it this way; no one posts, no one comments, we get no where. You can always stimulate discussion too.

I don't agree with LF's stance that we should lynch the lurkers. Lurking (including jas's "Will post later" posts) is generally a null tell. I also don't see anything super-scummy about FC. I would prefer to lynch someone who is actually acting scummy (FS or IM) over someone who probably just forgot about the game or can't keep up with it or whatever. And given that FC hasn't picked up his prod yet, that would seem to be the case.

Alright, I did not mean lynch the lurkers because they are lurking. I said lynch the lurkers because I think they are scum. At this point in the game my 214 on firechicago is *sadly* one of the stronger cases in the game to me, and I wouldnt mind at all seeing him lynched. [jas] seems to be purposly avoiding the game, and I still got wierd vibes off his post attacking RF.

So out of the actives, I could deal with an Iron lynch right now, but my gut keeps pulling me back to firechicago, and im not quite sure why, I am willing to trust it though for now.

Good to see Alvinz posting more content here.

On this topic, im not quite sure alvinz is at a high content post style yet, he did lay down feelings on all the players though, which is benificial. However, I dont think he is voting right now, given that he only listed Iron as scum/neutral leaning scum, this is odd. If only one player leans scum a vote is more practical then an FoS.

Now im not sure if you have and ive missed it, but can you answer my questions n 225 SG?

[LlamaFluff]

Im going to be gone for the next few days with limited access at best, but my to lynch list would be. You better not hang someone without me though

firechicago
iron man
jas

last few questions though -

Alvinz, shadowgirl and megatron - Why arent you voting? All of you are fairly vocal of your suspicions, a vote is the next natural step.

Reality - You mention that Amor looked scummy, does this change any opinions about Firestarter?

Amor - I have to agree with Reality but for a different reason. You are drawing a IM->SG connection right now. Yet you seem to still support an FS lynch more then an IM lynch. Why are you making connections of scum to scum if you arent voting the scum?

[LlamaFluff]

Well, the IM/SG connection isn't very strong right now, and outside of the quick vote ShadowGirl hasn't been acting too scummy. Really, at this point I would only seriously suspect her as scum if we knew for sure Iron Man was also scum. And I still think that Firestarter is acting the scummiest, although Iron Man has been giving him a run for his money. His argument with ZS and other recent play hasn't made him seem town to me, he just looks like scum looking for any sort of angle. I haven't been commenting on him much lately because I feel it's all been said, and his recent posts have been long and hard to get through, but I would still like a FS lynch.

Ok lets try this, you log in tomorrow morning and its all tied up between Iron and FS. It looks like you hammer FS?

[LlamaFluff]

Im offically tired of Iron hiding to avoid getting lynched and not contributing to any of the discussion. This has gone on long enough and its time to force him to do something.

unvote
vote Iron Man

I believe that this is L-2, but be careful about a hammer people, its been a while since an offical vote count.

Iron, lets hear a case, why are you not scum, and who is.

Alvinz, im waiting for that case on Iron you promise in 275

[LlamaFluff]

unvote
vote firechicago

Im going back to my last suspect for now. Ive read through games on this site though but never seen a mason claim. Do we have his partner claim if he has one now? Because outing two roles just seems stupid to me, but its the only way to prove his role short of a lynch.

With the claim though I am willing to fall back on firechicago though, as he still seems to be a good scum bet.

[LlamaFluff]

OK tell me if this idea sounds good or not, Ive been thinking and its the best I can come up with. Tomorrow we wont be at lylo, no matter who we lynch today, so this should work;

Today we dont lynch Iron, even if no one claims his mason partner. If he is telling the truth it would expose two roled players D1, which I dont think is too good, I am sure you could agree with me here alvinz.

Now we probally will not have Iron be NKed if no one claims his partner, regardless of him telling the truth again, because if he lives the night its a WIFOM situation of why isnt he dead, and he still isnt cleared. Here is the good part though, tomorrow his partner claims. At that point we will have both masons out in the open to verify the roleclaim, and we can take the validity of it from there. If no one claims then Iron is obv scum and we just lynch him.

If Irons partner wants to come out today, I cant really condone that course of action, but I think the above plan works a little bit better, and would rather see that put into action then lynching a possible mason, or having both masons exposed day one.

In laments terms

1) DONT lynch Iron today
2) TOMORROW a possible mason partner claims

Thoughts on this plan?

[LlamaFluff]

Nor do I see the harm, if IM is dead, of having the second mason (who will just be a vanilla townie in this case) uncovered.

This is the problem, if IM is a mason and outs his partner, we have two confirmed townies out in the open. Now what is stronger, a confirmed townie who is out in the open or a confirmed townie who isnt exposed. I dont think Iron should out his partner, and I dont think his partner should claim. The role is stronger hidden.

Right now the town has a hidden ace in the hole, if we flip the card, mafia knows exactly who they are up against, why given them more information then needed.

I guess we can put this to a mini-vote, but I say that a partner should be claimed or outed untill D2 at least

[LlamaFluff]

Well then lets explore all the possible things that can happen with this situation

1) Iron is scum, we lynch him today
2) Iron is mason, his partner doesnt claim, we lynch him today
3) Iron is mason, his partner claims, we have both masons out, we lynch someone else
4) Iron is mason, his partner doesnt claim today, we lynch someone else
5) Iron is scum, we dont lynch him today, a second scum claims mason tomorrow
6) Iron is scum, we dont lynch him today, we lynch him tomorrow

Now, lets say we hold off on a lynch for a partner claim D2 (D2 is a must). If a scum claims his "mason" partner, we will have to get over that hill when we get there, but will have two scum caught, I trust myself to figure out a BS claim. The other thing that can happen is a real mason partner claims, in which case we have two confirmed town out in the open. From here I strongly disagree with the fact that both will be kept untill lylo unless his partner is someone like zombie (harsh but true). Because if the two scum were unable to convince the last town that they were faking mason thats the game.

So to me I will say it again, an Iron lynch today, or Irons partner claiming, are mistakes. There is no reason to have two confirmed power roles out in the open, and even if IM is the nightkill, that leaves a mason to claim down the road when they need to. If both masons come out, its a one two NK killfest, how does that benifit us?

Everyone who wants Irons partner to claim definiantly moves up on my suspicion list.

[LlamaFluff]

1) Masons are not power roles. They are just confirmed townies and are as confirmed as the rest of the players to scum

more powerful then vanilla town, everyone knows they are clear, even the vanilla town. Scum already knows who is town and who isnt, but dont know roles.

2) Who cares if they kill the masons? It's better letting them kill masons, such as Iron, then letting them kill someone who adds to the discussion.

I would rather get NKed then a confirmed mason. They are CONFIRMED, much more valueable then me.

3) I'm not really worried about a scum claiming mason later on, because at worst it's a 1 for 1, which is good for the town, but letting Iron Man lay here unconfirmed doesn't sit well with me.

It lays fine with me, worst case scenario we have his scumbuddy claim tomorrow, then we figure it out from there. I would be surprized if neither of them breadcrumbed at all.

4) If he is scum, he will live longer, at which point, it might be impossible to tell if he is lying because Cops might die

Well tomorrow no claim from a partner and yes, lets lynch Iron. However if someone does claim, we really need to take it from there. This same logic says "dont belive any role". If I claimed doctor it sure isnt confirmable, so would that qualify as a lynch too?

The only way I could have seen Iron Man stay alive would have been if we had an outed cop already to claim results on Iron Man. But as it is, we are leaving an unconfirmed person live just because he might be confirmed town.

And I am perfectly fine with that, tomorrow we will have one of three situations

1) Iron confirmed scum by no partner claim
2) Two scum outed in mason claim
3) Two confirmed town outed

You also seem to me to be missing the point of why I dont want a partner claim. Lets say you are the other mason, if you claim his partner, who is going to be night killed? I would much rather leave Iron who isnt as into this game as the sole claimant and have him get NKed with a mason still in hiding then outing a second mason and having a more valueable player get NKed.

[LlamaFluff]

Well yeah its the second masons choice to claim or not, if they even exist. I still would say that they should not claim though, as if they do we now have two obvious NK targets. My main fear is the mason is someone like FaerieLord, who already is a higher NK chance. A claim would finish off any of these people night one.

I know I am not quite on line with most people for the second mason claim, but I still hold to the fact that we shouldnt force them out. Even if we lose town today and tonight, a mason pair would make 20% of the town confirmed, if not more from other power roles. I am going to hold by the fact that mason is more valueable then vanilla. As vanila, it should be a goal to keep the confirmed alive, and anyone who doesnt want to keep confirmed alive is not pro-town

For the next lynch though... that is a tough one. My top few picks are Firechicago (who is now getting replaced) and jas. I think the best plan of action though is just for everyone to do a reread though, that way we might be able to uncover some new things that we missed before.

[LlamaFluff]

Llamafluff, the point is, confirmed townies aren't useful after they are confirmed.

Confirmed townies arent useful!? They are confirmed! That means they are not scum! That means there is a lower chance of a mislynch! Confirmed townies are extreamly useful!

What do scum want to do the most? Lynch POWER ROLES or lynch the TOWNIEST players.

Power roles are the towniest players, no one can be more townie then a confirmed role. Ive seen some of the best looking town people flip scum, ive never seen a confirmed townie flip scum.

Scum know whenever someone from the town claims a role, they usually are that role. Therefore, they are confirmed to them (tho the town has no clue until an investigation or they get killed). When the town knows they are confirmed (via cop investigation or no counterclaiming), they are ONLY useful for the town, not scum, unless its a claimed power role. Why would scum waste a kill on them?

Scum will kill a confirmed townie easily if there are only unkown power roles. With a probable mason pair in this game, I really think there will be few power roles left, probally a doctor at most. A confirmed town is a better kill then a stab at the power role or the most town person.

Do you get what I'm saying? I tend to be unclear.....

Not really, I see zero reason for a partner to claim still, or why a confirmed townie is not useful.

With this, our best plan would be to

have the partner claim

(it doesn't even matter if they are scum). This would hopefully

narrow down the group

, and we would have a better chance at scum.

This is stupid to me. A last mason would know who they are, if they are brought to L-1 they claim like Iron. If a second mason never is in danger of being lynched, they should not claim.

After a good though-out lynch, during the night phase,

if we have a cop, he/she should investigate Iron Man

to see if he really is a mason.

I really dont like trying to control a role which may or may not exist here. This puts WIFOM on a possible doctor and cop.

Therefore, during Day 2, its a win-win situation.

Either we find 2 scum, or have a significantly greater chance at scum

.

I think its a win-win situation without the cop investigation. We will have two people claimed mason. However if the second mason claims today, one mason will, with almost 100% certainty, die tonight. Actually as I think about it more, Iron will die tonight without some unforseen intervention. If this happens I really doubt that his partner should claim because there is no need for them to go too. I am starting to think out loud and ramble though now.

Basically, if Iron Man is the mason, it would be like Day 3 but with more people. If Iron Man is scum, we would win or have 1 scum left (i think this set-up should have 2-3 scum). It would be basically 8/12 on day 2 which gives us a 2/8 chance or 3/8 chance.

Confuzzled again here, here are the two things that can happen (I included knowing im town)

1) Iron dies N1, we have one hiding mason, we have a 2/9 or 3/9 chance
2) Iron lives N1 (assuming other mason lives), we have a 2/8 or 3/8 chance like you say.

Now this means that Iron will die N1 with all likelyhood, harsh but true, it needs to be said and prepared for. Now to me this means that there is no real reason for the mason partner to claim. Now if they claim we go from a setup of 1 mason 9 others D2 to 0 masons 8 others D3. I would rather have the shot at 1 mason 7 others.

Basically its either win the game or get a better chance and be better off than without a claim.

A claim is BAD here. Ive been looking at this more and think that the mason claiming is a big mistake here. It is there choice but its setting us up for a lot of problems starting D3 when the pair is dead.

[LlamaFluff]

First off,

EVERYONE should reread the game

. There are a lot of interesting posts when you look back at it, I also feel much more comfortable about Irons claim after the reread. So I highly encourage alvinz and zombie (as well as anyone else doubting/asking for a partner claim) to reread.

*Disclaimer* These are my opinions on what is relevant and how scummy it is. I probally missed some things, left out some things you dont agree with leaving out, and scored things different then you would. Tough.

[jas] – Total (+.5)

+1 bandwagon removal with excuse (24/25)
-1 against no lynch (66)
+1 attack on RF for condoning lurking (121)
+.5 failure to post when promised
+1 post convienantly after pressured (197)
+0 posts analysis, only through pg 7, if no post by tomorrow +1
-2 good logic on mason claim (297)

alvinz95 – Total (+1.6)

+1 makes case on FS, refuses to put at L-1 (95)
-.5 puts FS at what he thought was L-1 (100)
-1 analysis post with no vote (231)
+.1 Iron vote (275)
+1 wants mason partner to claim (289)
+1 reitterates want for partner claim (306)

Firestarter – Total (+1)

+1 no lynch vote (41)
+.5 accuses voters of being scum, blanket OMGUS (50)
+.5 OMGUS vote (80)
+.5 lurker FoS (112)
-.5 calls Iron on lurking (129)
-1 ZS exchange

Iron Man – Total (-infinity)

-infinity mason claim

Megatron (replacing SD_Reaper) – Total (+1.6)

+1 bandwagon removal with excuse (33/35)
-.5 Questions no lynch (43)
+1 takes netural stance on FS (87)
-replace-
+.5 analysis with no vote, just FoS (246)
+.1 Iron vote (271)
-1 unvotes Iron (291)

firechicago – Total (+2)

+.5 Criticizes early no lynch but is open to late one (45)
+1 Calls FS situation WIFOM, leaves vote on FS (54)
+1 wants to vote inactives (148)
-.5 calls FL limited analysis (144)

ShadowGirl (replacing crazy_vlad) – Total (+2.1)

+.1 Iron vote (31)
-replace-
+1 immediate vote of FS, changed soon after (219/223)
+1 votes Iron post-claim (301)

ZombieSlayer54 – Total (+2.6)

+.1 votes Iron (15)
+0 attacks random wagons (26)
+1.5 contridiction – defends random wagons (39)
-1 calls FS on deflection (62)
+1 tunnel vision
-1 FS exchange
+1 leaves vote on Iron for “sake of sakes” (300)
+1 wants Irons partner to claim (313)

FaerieLord (replacing Xanatos Roulette) – Total (+2.1)

+.1 vote Iron
-replaces-
+1 Fueling fire of FS/ZS
+1 wants Iron to claim his partner (294)

Amor – Total (-.5)

-1 Speaks out against no lynch (42)
-.5 calls out lurker FoS (116)
+1 hesitant to vote FS (131)
-1 analysis of inactives (209)
+1 tell Iron to claim partner (292)

RealityFan – Total (-2)

-1 calls out FS on deflection (68)
-1 calls out iron for lurking (119)


So my list ends up looking like:

Zombie
Faerie
Shadow
Firechicago
Alvinz
Megatron
Firestarter
Jas
Amor
Reality
Iron

The main flaw in this is the more inactive people commonly end up near the bottom of the list, so jas might be up higher if he posted more.

My gut and recent actions tells me alvinz is too low though, and faerie may be up too high.

I am perfectly fine with zombie at the top of my list though, his recent play looks bad

unvote
vote ZombieSlayer

[LlamaFluff]

You know, I don't like how people that disagree with you on the mason claim, are automatically scummy.

That doesn't sit well with me.

If you do a close enough reread im sure you will see what I see and change that stance. Even without what I found though, lynching a claimed role that hasnt been counterclaimed or put into serious doubt very scummy.

At the beginning of this game we essentially had two confirmed townies that have been hidden from the mafia. We are now at one hidden and one exposed. Anyone who would rather make that two exposed, confirmed townies IS highly suspicious to me. That wont change and you can quote me on that.

If you want Iron to claim his partner that does make you scummy to me. It may partially be my play style, much like your unwillingness to vote without near ensured reason, but im not going to budge on that stance.

If you havent reread closely yet though, I seriously suggest it.

[LlamaFluff]

ShadowGirl (replacing crazy_vlad) – Total (+2.1)

+.1 Iron vote (31)
-replace-
+1 immediate vote of FS, changed soon after (219/223)
+1 votes Iron post-claim (301)

Hn? Nowhere in my post does it say that I want him to out his partner? [Though, I think I'm reading the wording wrong.]

After a reread, I seeing the light on this IM thing -

I truly do believe that he is mason, but I don't think his partner should claim at this moment - only if we get close to lynching them

. If they do at this moment, then the mafia can make better informed hits.

Unvote.

Never said you wanted a partner out, you just voted Iron after he claimed. What I bolded though is exactly what should be happening to me. People are yelling for Iron to out his partner so we dont mislynch someone right now. Lets really look at that closely though. If I was Irons partner, what are the benifits of me claiming it right now? Given that I am a higher profile player, my chance of being nightkilled goes near 100% and what do we gain? Nothing. Now lets say that someone like Zombie is the mason partner. If Zombie goes to L-1, THEN he should claim. The only way an outed mason will prevent a mislynch with higher odds is if they were about to be lynched.

One more thing, people seems to be fighting me on masons not being power roles, so think of it this way - Are masons more useful to the town then vanila town? (The answer is yes, masons are only 100% confirmed) Given that they ARE more

power

ful, they are

power

roles.

[LlamaFluff]

Im confused a bit too here and this recent wagon means I need to think. While zombie seems like a good lynch on paper and gut to me, enough people who I feel have a legitimate chance at being mafia voted him in the last two pages.

I am going to do a temporary

unvote

untill I can do a few rereads of zombie and the last few pages. And then probally ask some questions to specific players and the group as a whole, I will probally have that out later tonight.

*on his votecount* I am not sure if Firestarter is voting Zombie or not, off the top of my head I think he is though

[LlamaFluff]

Questions to everybody

On a scale of 1-10 (10 being max) how much do you believe Irons claim?
Do you think Irons partner should claim?
Have you reread the game since it passed page 10?
Tomorrow you wake up with ZS at L-1 and he claimed vanilla, do you hammer?

Specific questions

To Faerie, Alvinz, Shadow – Are Zombies recent actions the primary reason for voting him?
To Alvinz – What are your views on Firestarter?
To Alvinz – I actually don’t like your 338. What was your case on Zombie before that post?
To RealityFan – Since Iron claimed, who is scum and why?
To Zombie – Please lay out your case on your top scum suspect.
To Firestarter – WITHOUT bringing up your exchange with ZS, what is your case on him?
To Megatron – Zombie isn’t at L-1 (L-3 at my count), why aren’t you voting him?
To Shadow – Why the reluctance to leave Zombie at a perceived L-1?
To Shadow – Why did you vote Iron post-claim?
To Amor – Can you elaborate on why you wanted a partner claim in 208?
To Amor – Why does a lack of cases come into play for your wanting a FS lynch, simply put why wont you scumhunt?

I am not going to vote yet even though I doubt anything will change my mind. I expect these answers to confirm all my suspicions.

~Side note to Alvinz~

I think that a confirmed citizen would not last long. If they make it to endgame the scum win chance crashed unless they have that player in their pocket. I would be surprised if Iron lives past N2

[LlamaFluff]

For now ive heard enough to go back and

vote ZombieSlayer

this probally wont change unless something big comes up, L-2 I belive but its been a while since a votecount, so anyone else voting be sure you arent hammering before a claim opportunity

If anyone has questions for me, feel free to ask too. After Zombie answers my general question I will answer them too.

[LlamaFluff]

If anyone has questions for me, feel free to ask too.

After Zombie answers my general question

I will answer them too.

Which is...?

The top four in 349, plus any others that I directed towards you

@Alvinz - At this point I am treating the claim as legitimate so yes, Iron is confrimed town to me right now. I see no real reason to lynch him today and would rather lynch nearly any other player then him.

[LlamaFluff]

Complete recap on my question + my answers + a few cases coming tonight

[LlamaFluff]

I will start with apologizing if this is confusing at any parts, its 2 in the morning here and ive spent the last 30 minutes writing this post up. Without further ado though the answering of my own questions to the group –

1 – Right now I would say 8. Iron did act scummy pre and post claim, however I have seen little reason to doubt this claim, let alone call for his lynch. Everything fits to me, from reread comments to a split town on claim/no claim.

2 – Not until tomorrow

3 – Yes

4 – At this point it would depend who was voting him and when their votes were cast which I will explain later. Chances are I would though.

---

Now a few questions/comments directed at me

I ask you, LF... if you had the ability to be instantly confirmed as town right now, would you? Why are you pushing so hard to take information away from the town?

I would not take it if it was made public. Right now I am one of the more active players in the game, pushing people to post suspicions, votes and challenging people who I belive scummy. If I was a confirmed town on top of what I have done, I feel that it would be all the more reason to have me be NKed. I would prefer to be killed because I got scum lynched, not because I was confirmed.

It may be completely different then your way of playing sure, but I really don’t think a player who is not close to lynch coming out and saying “Hello, I am a confirmed town player” is bad if its not lylo. This just makes the mafias job at choosing an effective night kill target easier, and I am not going to do that.

To Amor – Why does a lack of cases come into play for your wanting a FS lynch, simply put why wont you scumhunt?

Gee, what a nice loaded question. I think that FireStarter is scum. None of the cases presented on other people, or actions taken by those other people, have convinced me that another player is a better lynch than FS. I'm scumhunting, but I'm not making cases against people I think are town.

Well I really didn’t see that as a loaded question, you are in tunnel vision mode on FS right now it seems, so lets try this question instead. Who do you think scumbuddies of FS are and why?

Also, I'm not building a full case, but I took a quick look at your posting history and pulled out a couple of interesting things:

Why?


For an analysis on my questions, the last one was the only one I really cared about. The others were just to see if anyone had a change of heart from what they originally had said or at least alluded to, which from a skim reread, no one did.


Faerie and Mega both seem intent of a ZS lynch at this point.
Amor is the only one who expresses full intent not to hammer.
Shadow and jas both claim to not see the case enough on ZS
Shadow and alvinz both take a probable hammer, but cautious approach

Analysis from this point is a bit difficult, we don’t know what alignment ZS is with complete certainty, and even if we did its hard to say where scum would land. While the safer approach on shadow, jas and alvinz is probally the best town stance to take, it also is the best scum stance as they can hammer or abandon ship at will.

With that said, these questions seem to of just been more of benchmarks then anything serious for case making, however if Zombie is ever lynched or NKed, these should prove very valueable, as people took a forced stance on a player.

For other questions though, I really don’t like most of the answers SG gave, but given how she responded though it really confuses me. The wording of her responses, especially to the general questions, gives me “unconcerned townie” vibes, but the answers also give me scum vibes.

My main problem with these answers is her continued unwillingness to leave Zombie at a high amount of votes. I doubt that anyone here is dumb enough to quick hammer someone, and if people are never put at the brink of lynch, then we never really get the full extent of what they have to say. You seem to belive that Zombie is scum, but the reluctance to get him close to lynch is frightening.

Also can you elaborate on how the ZS/FS fight was set up? Does this mean that you think both players are scum and were trying to create wagons on both to clear one of them or something to that extent?

@Alvinz – So you suspect me for beliving the mason claim eh? Well you are voting ZS who I have been voting for a long time, I was one of the original pushers of ZS, so we cant both be scum now can we? Either make a case against me or vote me, don’t just say “omg you think he is conf town! Scum!”

---

After doing a lot of thinking though, my best picks I can come up with for scum are in the following quad; Zombie, Amor, Shadow, Firechicago. If there aren’t at least two anti-town players there I am shocked.

I think the case against FC I made a while ago is still relevant, and that he is a decent scum pick

Shadow replaced CV who I did have higher suspicions of, and hasn’t done a whole lot to alieviate what was originally there. Most of her answers to my aux questions are odd. I don’t like the suggestion that ZS/FS are both scum, it feels like a possible set up of a double lynch. I still don’t like her initial vote/unvote when she replaced in right off the bat. The extremity of her unwillingness to vote for Zombie seems a little too cautious, I get the feeling of scum telling scum to fake a claim. The most telling to me was the vote on Iron after he had claimed mason. Especially since she now belives that claim, no additional information has been added from Iron on his partner. Only town reactions where the concensus is don’t lynch.

Amor is little more than gut at this point really, but it feels right to me. He claims that FS is scum, and does feel very confident in that claim, however there was an instance early in the game where he was not voting FS under the fear of getting him lynched, after the breadcrumb incident I have not seem Amor actively pushing a lynch though. The constant pull for Irons partner irks me though. To me you seem to be setting up for one of two things; either exposing both masons, or being able to throw lots of doubt on anyone claiming mason of Iron dies. Both of these things benefit scum to me.

For Zombie, I think is still may be our best bet, his play after the mason claim has been really ugly

[My vote shall remain on you [iron], just for the sake of sakes. I will continue to observe carefully...

Willingness to vote claimed role which has not been counterclaimed

Ok, Alvinz is on top of my scum list right now. Even above Iron Man. However, I will keep my vote on Iron Man, just to get the mason buddy to claim.

Willingness to not vote his top suspect, to get Irons partner to claim

I mean, if you can show me some reason as to not trust IronMan's reasoning, please do so.

Fishing for a reason to vote Iron

It just seems that you want to get Iron lynched as much as possible at this point, and are now backing out of it since it has become obvious that it will not be happening.

---

With that said though, for now im going to do something a little odd and

unvote
Vote ShadowGirl

. The Zombie wagon just seems to easy, no one is fighting it too hard.

I would support a lynch of SG, ZS or FC at this point, so hopefully can generate some discussion on them. Amor not yet but he should be looked at closely tomorrow, especially if we get a zombie or FS flip.

[LlamaFluff]

I belive this constitutes a "claim or die" situation from Zombie

[LlamaFluff]

Llama, is there something wrong with asking for reasoning as to why my reasoning might be wrong? I imagine that improving my reasoning would only serve to help everybody.

Once again, if Iron's mason buddy claims, then we pretty much have two confirmed townies, heavily decreasing the chance for a mislynch. Of course, it is a double-bladed sword, in that the Mafia will know that, for all intents and purposes, they are just vanilla-confirmed townies, and will use their NK on somebody else, possibly hitting a doctor or a cop.

However, I think the benefits outweigh the loss. Two confirmed townies are always good, in my book.

Here is problem #1, everyone is assuming that there is a doctor and/or cop. This is a mini-game, and we have a mason pair. That means that we already have 16% of the players in this game confirmed town. If we start adding on more roles, well then mafia must all be godfathers or roleblockers, otherwise this game is lost.

I would be willing to be at most we have something along the lines of a bodyguard or one shot vig, anything else seems to tip the scale to the advantage of the town significantly.

For the reason that we do not know all of the power roles in this game, we should not make the mistake of assuming that we have a doctor who will be saving the masons. That simply is something that we cant and shouldnt do.

Therefore any confirmed townie seems to be the best player to kill for the mafia, and if we give them their choice of two players to kill, that only gives the mafia a greater ability to manipulate the happenings and gives a possible doctor type role a higher chance of missing a save due to WIFOM on the more useful mason.

We know so little about the game that we cant tell if outing the other mason is a good move or not. If we dont have a doctor, I feel the risk potential is much greater then the reward potential if a doctor does exist. Dont try to outguess the mod on roles, or push people to act on percieved roles.

Also am I to take that post as vanilla town claim?

[LlamaFluff]

Now then, considering how many people said they would hammer me with a vanilla townie claim...

*cringes*

I want the lurkers to all weigh in before a hammer, thats reality, whoever replaces FC and jas. Do you three think that Zombie is the best lynch? Why or why not?

[LlamaFluff]

Also

mod

, can we maybe get a round of prods and a votecount

[LlamaFluff]

Well I guess my argument relies on belief....

Llamafluff do you think confirmed town and "believe to be town" the same thing?

Well he is not 100% physically impossible to flip scum town. The only way that ever is possible is a confrimed cop with confirmed insanity. However a reread does make him as close as possible to confirmed as I can ever put anyone.

Have you reread the game since it passed page 10?

Of course.

With this response, while I belive that you did reread, given your stance you either missed or interpreted something that I read differently. I am not going to go pointing it out for you since I am not sure if scum knows about it or not, but what I have read reinforces the fact that Iron is a mason.

To the core of your question though, there is a difference in belive to be and confirmed. If forced to choose a spot for Iron though, I am almost ready to put him in the confrimed section. I dont know how to explain this farther without causing damage to the town really, but will set everything straight if I make it through the night.

Untill then you either can belive what I am saying, or not. I wont introduce any specific information that I belive hurts the town though.

I feel inclined to put this out here too right now. I dont think you are scum, but misguided townie at this point. Your concerns you brought up are legitimate and actually trying to pressure one of the more active and loud players is something that I call a town move. I would just advise that you stop pushing for this information, I will put everything out tomorrow when it is more useful

[LlamaFluff]

With this secrecy, it seems that you are both happy (FL & LF) lynching ZS now.
I am too at this moment, but its like you both have this down as a forgone conclusion, and are planning tomorrows lynch.
It seems like you have some goodies for the rest of us, and that the guys who haven't voted ZS, should do so now, so we can get to Day 2, and be rewarded with the treats...
This aint sitting easy with me for some reason...

Its a hunch at this stage, on my part, but its noted.

What I figured out has nothing to do with Zombie, if it did I would of said it by now. It also has nothing to do with tomorrows lynch. It only has to do with Iron and something that was said which would aid scum if it was revealed day one. It does not have to do with guilt but innocence, and if the player is not being threatened with a lynch, I dont see a point in near confirming their innocence to make them a NK target.

[LlamaFluff]

Well it seems that we have hit a brick wall in discussion. Plauged with lurkers we really arent going to be getting any further, my main fear is we keep hopping around driving people up to L-1 and having them claim, it has happened three times today already, I dont want a fourth.

Zombie seems to be the best lynch for today, we will get some new information from it too. The only way this game should progress more into D1 is if we get a slough of replacements, but we have been missing one for FC for about four pages now so...

unvote
vote ZombieSlayer

[LlamaFluff]

Well it should be nice to have a new perspective here, we have gotten almost to the point where it seems a lynch is the only way we will ever progress in this game. So I look forward to hearing your perspective on the wagons we have going here.

I would like to see a vote from reality and zombie though, or at least a good explaination as to why neither of you are voting yet.

[LlamaFluff]

Im going V/LA from Sunday to Tuesday for a backpacking trip, I should be back late Tuesday, early Wednesday at the latest.

I still support a Zombie lynch, he already claimed vanilla too so no claim wait is needed really

[LlamaFluff]

Nice to see a total of 10 posts in the three days I was gone... I am looking forward to an analysis from CKD sometime soon.

One thing that I realized though that is really bugging me is the Faerie/Mega/Zombie triangle we have going on right now. Faerie seems to be fairly sure that Megatron is a high pick for scum, however so is Zombie, and Megatron is voting Zombie as the third (?) vote right now. So Faerie, is this bussing or scum pushing a town lynch.

Also

unvote

. I need to go back and do some rereading, I got this feeling of mislynch right now in regards to Zombie and need to look back through the game to see if its justified or not.

@Reality - jas is a streach for a lynch today, what is your take on firestarter and zombie?

[LlamaFluff]

Well I have been rereading POIs, and I have to say, either people are great at distancing, or I am way off base in what I have been thinking. Making this all the more simple though, at this point, my gut is telling me ShadowGirl and Amor need to be lynched. Just something about the play style of those two are setting off so many bells, but when I look at what they say, I am in agreement with a lot of their conclusions.

Upon further examination though there are a few main reasons that I am going after these two players more then anyone else. The first is Amor, and his interactions with Firestarter. Almost everything here points to bussing at first, his ignoring Iron when firestarters wagon started, that reluctance to put firestarter at L-1, and his clinging to firestarter when the wagon shifted. I just get the feeling that he knew something about Iron and FS before we all did, and I cant shake that feeling.

Shadowgirl though is pinging even higher to me. It wasnt a secret that I had a scum read going on CV who she replaced, he was one of my top suspects for most of the first part of this game. Truthfully, SG hasnt done much to alleviate those suspicions, and I really am hard pressed for finding a reason why to drop her as a suspect of mine. The vote of Iron was horrible, it happened post claim and she voted in a post that sounded like she belived the claim. It almost seemed that she at first was planning to call BS on Iron, then decided it would be best to believe the claim and forgot to edit out the vote. Since then she has locked onto zombie without a whole lot of case building, in fact her vote seemed to come on a logic disagreement post more then an evidence post. Also the door here is left wide open for a move to firestarter if needed, from the quick vote/unvote to start, and the ZS/FS argument is fake thing.

Wrapping up, I am getting hit with huge second thoughts about Zombie right now. Something really feels wrong here, and how fast this has happened, on top of who is voting who, I get mislynch reads from what is happening. Right now I am actually more for a firestarter then zombie lynch.

vote ShadowGirl

I encourage everyone to take a closer look at her actions and how she wound up on the Zombie wagon.

Key Points for Lazy People

-Amor, ShadowGirl both are scummy to me
-Right now I feel Zombie is a mislynch
-I would vote Firestarter over Zombie right now
-I think ShadowGirl is the best scum bet today

I really need to just take a deep breath, read this game with a clean mind. Too much is happening IRL for that right now so im a bit scatterbrained over whats going on. Hopefully I will be out of this funk soon, but right now I think SG is the best bet. Incase it wasnt clear this is

not

a replacement request, just a warning that I am a little burned out in this game but I should be back soon. Hopefully analysis from CKD will clear up a few grey spots.

[LlamaFluff]

IBut LF's most recent post, imo, is a big shift in the game, and there is a pattern emerging from LF with his posting behaviour.
Pressure is put on players, then he changes his mind from what I can remember.

Well meta me if you want. I have no finished games here but when I feel that something is wrong, im going to say it. I just suddenly have this feeling that the ZS wagon is wrong, and we are just being played by a few people egging it on, and trying to make this FS vs ZS lynch. I have played a large game as scum on another site and the scum group managed to make it cit vs cit for a easy double lynch. This situation feels a bit similar, and I want to reconsider what im doing.

Also if you never change your mind, you are going to have a lot of mislynches on your hands. The only difference between you and me, is that I am much more vocal in my suspicions, so its a noticeable change. I can go through and find everyone in this game changing how suspicious people are, I just do it... louder.

@LF: So, correct me if I'm wrong, but you're suspicious of me because you think I was bussing Firestarter? Wouldn't it make more sense then to try and get Firestarter lynched over me? Shouldn't we be sure that someone is scum before we accuse other people because of their connection to them?

When did I vote you? Given your suspicions and what you are saying, sure I would vote FS over you, but your play is familiar to me as a scum tactic. While you make it clear that you prefer a FS lynch to a ZS one, you are not behaving like getting FS lynched is your top priority, you spend more time disagreing with the ZS wagon then pushing FS to the lynch, which is what I would expect scum to be doing here. My reasoning is not only "You are scum with FS", it also has to do with the way you more "dont understand" the zombie wagon then pick it apart for bad reasoning. There have been plenty of posts that advocate a Zombie lynch, but comprehension is a scum way to denounce a lynch.

[LlamaFluff]

Sorry, I thought your summarization said SG and I were your top suspects. Even so, if FS is more suspicious than me, it seems a bit weird to focus on me so much and barely mention him in your analysis.

The case on FS is fairly well established. I am getting this feeling that I am going to get NKed, so I am going to be putting a lot of cards out on the table, especially in areas that for the most part havent been explored. I think you have a legitamate shot at being scum so want my suspicions out for discussion.

Also to everyone - What are you doing? We should be lynching ShadowGirl right now for her post claim Iron vote!

Seriously though post 301 is almost enough to lynch SG right there. She agrees with my plan and jas' plan, both which involve Iron living, however she also is skeptical to the claim being real, and votes Iron. I still think this was a scum slip, as she was origionally planning to not believe the claim, then went back on that plan and forgot to take out the vote. Next post at 331 she finally "sees the light" of the mason claim (I still dont get how) and hops on the zombie wagon without really adding anything.

Then in response to my questions, SG takes a more iffy stance on the mason claim again, possibly still looking to tack on a vote for a power role. Also a push of Iron, FS and FC/CKD comes by bringing back up the no lynch talk. ZS and FS are pushed farther because the fight was faked according to her. Note the nice dodge of my Iron vote question too.

I am pretty sure Shadow is scum at this point, and baring another change of heart. My vote will probally be here unless a deadline forces it off.

[LlamaFluff]

I'm actually inclined to keep my vote on Llamafluff, not for the "confirmed town" incident but for this strange voting patern. (correct me if i'm wrong, cause i didn't bother to reread.)

1. votes zombieslayer
2. unvote, votes someone else when zombie is getting close to lynching
3. reverts back to zombie after few more jump off then pushes it and says its the best lynch
4. unvotes and votes shadowgirl and now is "sure she is scum"

Odd. It seems like you're trying to jump off the wagon whenever it gets close to lynching. Maybe trying not to take the blame when a lynch comes and it turns sour?

You want to know why I am having a hard time with the whole Zombie thing? Its his case. He is getting jumped on mainly for the whole thing of what he did right after Iron claimed, as I keep reading him though, untill that point I get town reads off him.

Now I am left at a conflicting crossroad where while he did act scummy at a pivital point in the game, I need to decide if that is something worthwhile to actually lynch him on. Sure there were other players that I got scum reads off at that time, namely Shadow. When compared to other points in the game though, I think Shadow does come off scummy with her entrance, and her predicesor.

So yes I am kind of conflicted as to what is going on here. While I want Shadow lynched, Zombie is not a horrible lynch at this point, the same applies to FC/CKD who I got a scum read off earlier in the game. It is a matter of how much I want this game to move on, mixed with how much I want to make a decision that

I

feel comfortable with.

If you think im scum for being confused as hell when it comes to this vote fine, I just want to be sure about what I am doing in this game. If it means getting a little suspicion in return for making the best possible decision, I am perfectly fine with that. Shadow is scum though, you can quote me on that when you finally decide to lynch her.

----

@Shadow

My question was why you voted Iron after he claimed mason. You said

IM has been lurking and has hardly posted. And when he has posted, it is either not useful or they somehow seem off.

That was a dodge to me, a more "correct" answer would of mentioned something about not believing a claim. This was just general, and to me weak, reasoning for a player to be scum in general.

[LlamaFluff]

My entire player breakdown is coming. I will start with my current picks for scum though as it is late. I feel that these four players are our best lynches today, with SG being quite a bit ahead of all the others.

This simply is a list of some relevent posts and just a few thoughts about each player. I am still happy with my SG vote though.


~~~ShadowGirl/CrazyVlad~~~

CV(5) - The word unfortuneately used for Iron and FS picking up suspicion. When challenged this supposedly was ment unfortuneately that they were now suspicious, however in the same post he lists them both as scummy so I fail to see how scum implicating themselves in unfortuneate
SG(1 and 3) - A quick read puts FS vote which is soon pulled.
SG(3) - This is where my hesitation on Zombie is coming from. SG does some analysis but starts prodding the Zombie scum over FS movement, I dont have a read on if this is distancing or bussing
SG(9) - Implies FS is scummy and tries to put attention on for "dodging a bullet". Zombie is no longer mentioned, point to bussing
SG(11) - Votes Iron after he claimed, enough said in past posts
SG(13) - Zombie wagon anyone?
SG(15) - Doesnt want Zombie at L-1

thoughts
- odd actions regarding FS/ZS
- decent scum buddy odds
- Zombie goes in and out of recognition

~~~Firestarter~~~

(3) - The no lynch vote
(8) - Plays newbie card and OMGUSs whole wagon
(9) - Votes Zombie on weak reasons
(13) - More newbie card
(14) - *warning temp necro of breadcrumb* This seemed to be a subtle "im more valeuable then vanilla" move, regardless of what it was intended to be. A vanilla claim does not line up with this post. *end necro*
(16) - sorry *renecro* Im surprized I missed this before, 14 is refered to as "my post with my claim" *unnecro*. Pushes lurkers, FoS on Xan, who CV/SG pushed a bit
(22) - some newbie card, some ignorance, use of the word claim
(27) - makes a bit of a case on ZS, votes Zombie
(48) - FoS/OMGUS on SG, FoS on jas
(56) - decent ZS case

thoughts

- lots of newbie card
- tunnel on zombie
- claim/breadcrumb
- no obvious scum pair

~~~ZombieSlayer~~~

(4) - votes Iron, says FS is other
(6) - good post
(7) - votes FS, says Iron is other
(11/12) - good post
(18) - "99% scum" doesnt sit well
(25) - vote Iron, FS vote is "stale"
(29) - continues voting Iron for "sake of sakes", asks details of role
(30) - Alvinz on top of scum list
(34) - Drunk sounding post, unvotes Iron
(39) - Vanilla claim
(41) - votes FS

thoughts

- tunnel vision
- looks good untill 29
- bad span of about five posts makes looks scum
- vanilla town claim
- pair with alvinz?

~~~CuriousKarmaDog/FireChicago~~~

FC (3) - FoS FS and Iron, brings up late in D1 no lynch, role speculating
FC (4) - content with inital random vote on FS
FC (7) - FS still scum, Iron second, bring up voting lurkers, tunnel vison, keeps vote unless someone else comes up with a plan for activity
CKD - still rereading

thoughts

- FC seems flakey with his FS vote
- no lynch late in D1
- vote lurkers
- waits for someone else to move


~~~overall~~~

I think a FS or ZS lynch will provide us with the most information when this is all over, as they have the most ties, and the most people pushing and at times defending their actions. At the same time though, I feel that SG will have a higher chance of turning up scum, still leaving me in my information vs scum odds with little to go on D2 debate.

[LlamaFluff]

Llamafluff, you dodged the main point about your

voting pattern

, not the Zombieslayer wagon.

Its hard to really respond to a fact, thats not a question. Anyways, that is the way I play when I am unsure of something, and I think what you have been talking about has mainly been the Zombie voting/unvoting.

I have said it before and I will say it again, I really am conflicted over that vote. Zombie looked town to me for the majority of the first part of the game, up untill the Iron incident. Even then, only for a small span of posting he looked really scummy. During that span though, it was really scummy. So I am still trying to figure out if it was just town making bad posts suddenly, or scum stumbling a bit.

[LlamaFluff]

So I am still trying to figure out if it was just town making bad posts suddenly, or scum stumbling a bit.

The latter.

I still am not convinced of that due to his early game actions, SG has been scummy to me most of the time she has been here, just like CV. That makes her the right lynch to me over Zombie.

I guess I get why people are on me a bit, but I honestly am conflicted at this point. What the people attacking me are failing to mention however, is that my suspicions, while everchanging, are centered around three main targets; Zombie, Shadow and FC/CKD. There is a difference between saying three people are scum and pushing them at different points in time, and trying to get every player lynched day one.

So if Alvinz, if you can present a bit more of a case then 'flakeyness around zombie lynch', I would be much obliged.

To just make it perfectly clear though with my suspicions; I have SG as my top scum right now, multiple pegs over everyone else. If I knew what to say to make everyone feel the way I do here, I would say it in an instant. A fair question though to everyone - What are your views on SG?

@reality - who is your suspect behind jas?

[LlamaFluff]

I find your pushing on SG very strange Llama.

Very

strange.

I will rephrase then, do you find SG town, neutral, scummy and why? I know it looks wierd but I have been vocally suspicious of her all game, and now I am convinced she is the best lynch

[LlamaFluff]

Point taken, being dense on hints is bad but a 1am post makes it even worse.

A little more importantly though; @reality - The chance of a jas lynch today is basically zero. With you not doing much for pushing the case, that chance is zero. Now, what are your current views on FS/ZS and do you think you might ever vote for one of those two players today?

mod

can we get prods on iron, jas, reality and anyone else who has been dead for a few days

[LlamaFluff]

So, I guess we're in a deadlock now?

So if Alvinz, if you can present a bit more of a case then 'flakeyness around zombie lynch', I would be much obliged.

The pattern speaks for its self.

You vote Zombie Slayer, unvote when the wagon grows, vote again when more people jump off and push the lynch saying its the best, then unvote again and claims Shadowgirl is 100% scum...

So do you disagree with my shadow case? You are attacking me while dismissing any ideas I am putting out, chainsaw defense anyone? At least tell me, what are your views on shadow right now.

Also you really arent helping a deadlock by sounding like a broken record against me. Look at my voting pattern, while I have changed my mind a lot, this has been a month and a half, that are between the same people. For the most part I have called scum Zombie, CKD and Shadow. If a voting pattern is the only thing you have against me, I think the alignment of who I am voting should be important in your case. If ZS, SD and CKD are all scum, there goes your case, if they are all town sure feel free to attack me.

On top of that, what are your views on Zombie? Do you think he is scum? Firestarter? Anyone but me?

[LlamaFluff]

Well to SG, when I get sure of something I start tunneling in on it. By no means am I ignoring everything else going on. Guaging reactions from other players, watching who others push, it doesnt detract from my case though.

Either way though

Im still waiting...
Wating for the day.
Im still waiting...
Wating for the day.
Im still waiting for tomorrow
Tired of living in yesterday
Im still waiting...
Waiting for the day Realtiy posts!

[LlamaFluff]

Zombie claimed vanilla already, so I really dont have much of a fear of doing this

unvote
vote ZombieSlayer

That is a hammer, congrats on the 55 day D1 guys.

Shadow goes tomorrow

[LlamaFluff]

Vote ShadowGirl

Zombie flipping scum makes this lynch even more essential

[LlamaFluff]

Vote ShadowGirl

Zombie flipping scum makes this lynch even more essential

Oh? How so?

When you replaced, you were pushing for what seemed to be a Zombie lynch, or at least some attention in that direction. No formal case came from this, but there were mentions of "this seems interesting" and "Zombie looks a little scummy". No votes came though at that time, and you dropped Zombie from what you had been saying.

Now, later on you mention that you are torn between FS and Iron for your vote. Zombie is no longer mentioned. Making this even more interesting you called FS town quite a few times early in the game, when you were bashing Zombie.

Next you pull that really wierd move of voting Iron AFTER he claimed mason, thats unrelated but scum points regardless, and should of put you under much more scrutiny D1 then it really did.

Finally the wagon against Zombie has started, it was fairly easy to sense and I am sure you picked up on the fact that at this point Iron wasnt going, people didnt want to lynch FS, so Zombie was about to go under. You tacked on a vote.

At L-1 you unvoted him, to give him a chance to claim which you probally were upset when he didnt at least try and do a fakeclaim. You gave him the window to afterall.

Eventually the Zombie vote comes back, although you still sound upset about needing to do it, and almost seem to treat it as a prod vote so Zombie comes back and says something.

So Zombie being scum basically makes this lynch even more important to get off today. Lets do it.

[LlamaFluff]

First of all I'd like to say that the "Mafia Spy" is unknown to the mafia, so there is a very good chance that scum were on the wagon as they unknowingly bussed their "partner".

Well that doesnt exclude the general wishy-washyness of her pushing zombie at only optimal times that did not attribute to his lynch but left the door open for saying that the suspicion was there.

BUT, I still think that there is an equally good case on Llamafluff. Yesterday's voting pattern really stood out, and it looked clear that you were preparing for a hammer by unvoting and such (unintentional buss?) It would be logical that (if you are scum) you NK'ed faerielord based on post 225.

If you thought the NK was going to not be Iron, Faerie, me or the other mason you have to be insane. Everyone else was highly suspected at some point during D1. Also using WIFOM on someones death, especially this early into D2 is pretty scummy to me.

[LlamaFluff]

@mod

can we get a prod on everyone who hasnt posted today yet?

[LlamaFluff]

I thought he was scummy because of the fight between him and FS but nothing other then that - why would I vote for him based on that? And I wasn't pushing a lynch for him. And I 'dropped' him because compared to some other people he wasn't looking scummy.

Yeah that was kind of my point. You brought him up before there was really any attention directed at him. No one responded to your case so you moved on to people who were being pushed by louder people.

Why would I mention Zombie when there were two people who seemed scummier? Also, where have I called FS town?

This sounded like hinting at it to me -

Now that I've read over [and LF's questions] I do indeed not have any solid claim that you are scum, which is precisely why I retracted my vote

it may not read "FS=town" but it doesnt really read "FS=scum" to clearly. If you want one being much more specific though there was this:

The more I read through the posts, the less scummy FS seems to me

I really didn't know what to believe at that point.

so the best course of action was vote for the claimed mason?

Well, with Iron being mason - which I believed and FS hadn't done anything to arouse my suspicion, while Zombie was quickly

werent you recently saying that you didnt think FS was town ever?

I didn't want to leave him at L-1 because I thought someone would hammer him. I don't see what wrong with having the decency to let him defend himself.

L-1 forces a claim from the player, and I dont think anyone is dumb enough to hammer before he had a chance to claim

Where do I sound upset about it?

this doesnt display enthusiasam to me

Still, without any further information there's no point in lynching him - though I wish he would show up so he could shed some more light on it.

-----

Can you also explain these quotes to me?

Also, as far as the ZS fight, I have see nothing from that fight that screams out scummy.

And the whole FS/ZS fight/s? Seems like an elaborate set up

Also can you elaborate on how the ZS/FS fight was set up? Does this mean that you think both players are scum and were trying to create wagons on both to clear one of them or something to that extent?

Yes. If one or the other is lynched, the other could be like 'I told you so'. It just seems a tad over dramatic to be real.

A silly argument has gotten everyone worked up. And plus, FS and Zombie would be at each other's throats the next day, anyway - stirring something up. The more I read through the posts, the less scummy FS seems to me - why bring attention to yourself? I'd think he was merely a brash townie.

I am very happy with my vote, but this wagon is lonely, anyone care to join me?

[LlamaFluff]

I want a claim from Iron Man's partner.

I have been spending the last IRL week deciding if this is the right thing to do or not. Given only one NK though I think it is.

I claim mason

Anyone want to counterclaim? I dare you to.

Now can we get back to lynching SG?

[LlamaFluff]

I present to you, my claim.

Sorry I haven't been posting more, I haven't seen a lot to comment on recently.

Maybe

you should look at it this way; no one posts, no one comments, we get no where. You can always stimulate discussion too.

I don't agree with LF's stance that we should lynch the lurkers. Lurking (including jas's "Will post later" posts) is generally a null tell. I also don't see anything super-scummy about FC. I would prefer to lynch someone who is actually acting scummy (FS or IM) over someone who probably just forgot about the game or can't keep up with it or whatever. And given that FC hasn't picked up his prod yet, that would seem to be the case.

Alright

, I did not mean lynch the lurkers because they are lurking. I said lynch the lurkers because I think they are scum. At this point in the game my 214 on firechicago is *sadly* one of the stronger cases in the game to me, and I wouldnt mind at all seeing him lynched. [jas] seems to be purposly avoiding the game, and I still got wierd vibes off his post attacking RF.

So

out of the actives, I could deal with an Iron lynch right now, but my gut keeps pulling me back to firechicago, and im not quite sure why, I am willing to trust it though for now.

Good to see Alvinz posting more content here.

On

this topic, im not quite sure alvinz is at a high content post style yet, he did lay down feelings on all the players though, which is benificial. However, I dont think he is voting right now, given that he only listed Iron as scum/neutral leaning scum, this is odd. If only one player leans scum a vote is more practical then an FoS.

Now

im not sure if you have and ive missed it, but can you answer my questions n 225 SG?

So that was

Maybe
Alright
So
On
Now

M-A-S-O-N

Yes I know corny but it worked. Yay for no mod rule about cryptic posts.

This was in a post before Iron claimed mason if you want to date it. Any other questions?

[LlamaFluff]

ffs you really hammered D2 after about 20 posts? That was way way too fast no matter what SG is

[LlamaFluff]

you forgot
-hear from everyone -no check

[LlamaFluff]

Question @ Llama...
Would you have unvoted if given the chance, to hear others thoughts on the SG lynch?

Yes

[LlamaFluff]

This discussion is best suited for tomorrow when we get a confrimation on SG flip. Right now we are messing with WIFOM which easily could spill over into tomorrow and cause chaos there too. The only people we should hear from if any are jas and CKD

[LlamaFluff]

I think jas will need a replacement too, its been over two weeks since he posted on the site I think.

Anyways though, WTF? Not only does scum kill my #1 suspect but its the cop... frick. Im wondering if we have a vig and doctor at this point in time, since Iron and I didnt die, and someone who I thought was scum got killed instead of confirmed town.

I like a CKD vote, which is why I REALLY wanted D1 to last longer, so I could have him weigh in on SG. I dunno, anyone else thoughts? I am at a loss right now with that kill

[LlamaFluff]

Scratch that whole vig/doctor thing, I remembered something from early on in the game. Jas is a decent vote though. Dueling wagons are more fun though

Vote CKD

[LlamaFluff]

This is half a vote to see where others fall and half because your predicesor was one of my top scum picks. It also is the reason I flipped when SG got hammered in a page, I wanted to hear from you about the lynch.

So this really isnt a lurking vote but at the same time I really dont have a suspicion list against you. I guess just give your views about the game, we will see what everyone else chooses to do and from there I will make my next step.

If someone does run this up to L-1 and hammers again though in a page, I will hunt you down and vig you policy like.

[LlamaFluff]

I think RF investigated SG night 1. Although I wouldnt be surprised if it was someone else, his NK took me 100% by surprise, I prepared a bunch of stuff for Iron because I thought there was no way I lived. He may of thought similar and saw no need to breadcrumb. Check that, I dont think he investigated SG, he asked her to claim, he is a newer player so it seems he wasnt sure of himself.

Now on other players, I view FS as pretty town right now, not because of actions but WIFOM from SG. When SG replaced in she concentrated on ZS and FS. Now given that ZS was the mafia spy and (I think) not known to scum, she made some prods at him. In the long run though, she seemed to back a FS lynch much more then a ZS one, as discussion of him dropped off for Iron and FS. I dont see scum bussing like this D1 when there is what appeared to be a townie who was on the way out the door.

Given lack of NKs too, I think we are dealing with a large scum faction. I even would venture GF-RB-goon-spy. This isnt 100%, but I have never seen only one NK twice, and never seen less then three anti-town roles. On this note, if we have a doctor who has two saves, now would be a good time to speak up

if

they arent on Iron or I.

I like jas and CKD as our main courses of action today. I still would not be shocked by an Amor-scum given he pushes cases like I do as scum. BM-scum is possible, but I dont see it that much. Same applies to alvinz-scum, the move against me D1 was gutsy, but given ZS would of appeared town to scum, possible.

Right now I would go

CKD
jas
Amor
Alvinz
BM
FS

@mod

please replace jas, he has not posted on the site for about two weeks now

[LlamaFluff]

did you really have to make that entire post using acronyms?

Yes

Prizes for guessing who that might be!

jas

[LlamaFluff]

I am actually looking forward to hearing what BM thinks about FS being scum. He is one of the only people I think it isnt at this point. I am leaning to jas, CKD and Amor still.

Jas needs to talk
CKD needs to do a reread
Amor needs to... give opinions?

Alvinz scum is nagging at me though, it feels right but I cant back it up

[LlamaFluff]

Post 63 by Llama is fishing.

FoS: Llama

Well that was actually me trying to not appear mason with Iron as much as possible which I thought was obvious. I can see it being interpreted as fishing though. Also I am claimed mason, so unless you think Iron and I are both scum, and I have led two scum lynches, thats a deadend road for you.

I still dont completely buy a FS-scum though, although merit is not missing to that possibility. The fact that SG replaced in and decided to concentrate on FS instead of ZS is my main reason for thinking that FS is scum. While this could of been the push the scummate that wont get lynched thing going on, I am not so sure. If this is your thought then Amor gets the same treatment.

At the same time however, SG saying that ZS/FS were fighting scum gives merit to a FS scum a little. ZS would of appeared town, so if FS is lynched, ZS is an established case for her to follow up on.

I would prefer hearing from CKD and jas, what their rereads give us and everything like that, but I am not too sure FS is todays lynch.

[LlamaFluff]

unvote, vote jas

mod says he is here, in fact jas scum makes a little sense given the seemingly random death

[LlamaFluff]

LF, sorry if this is a repeat question, do you and IM know each other's alignment?...or just that both a mason?

Role is mason, not unconfirmed mason so I am saying yes.

unvote, vote jas

mod says he is here, in fact jas scum makes a little sense given the seemingly random death

*facepalm*

a lurker lynch.... 0.o

Look this guy despite being a suspect of mine for a lot of this game keep disappearing on me and never answering me, never posting thoughts and I want him dead or replaced because if we reach an endgame with him im going to lose it.

[LlamaFluff]

Well, he should be replaced then. Its not like we're at LyLo here. What bugs me is, why would you lose if we got to LyLo with him still alive?

BM

Well its not like I havent been calling for a replacement and prods on him for most of this game

My problem with someone like that at lylo is, you have no reads on him. From there its more of a read on the other player then a read on the lurker, or using interactions with the dead scum (who if play well can point to town).

The fact that RF died last night though points to someone who really has no clue whats going on. I have been a major force in two scum lynches already, am claimed mason, and I have no clue why I am still here. Iron is a claimed mason, I have no clue why he is still here.

I do not have 100% confirmation on Iron, I will ask the mod but I dont see Iron-scum happening due to the very poor NK choices. N1 he knew I was town, he knew I wanted SG lynched, yet FL (who was my 3rd scum pick) died. Last night RF (who again was high on my scumlist) got killed. So Iron is either messing with my confidence which I dont see happening, or is not scum. I say not scum.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama, WTF??? You don't even know if Iron Man is the mason for real?

I have played in a game with "unconfirmed masons" before where the partner could be scum or town. In this game I am a "mason", which to me means that its confirmed.

While the wording of "you are both confirmed town" is missing, I would be willing to bet that Iron is town. I still say jas is the best bet though given his general cluelessness in this game adds up with a seemingly random kill from scum last night. When SG was still around FL would of made perfect sense coming soley from her.

[LlamaFluff]

can we please stop talking about what is a good mafia NK move and what is a bad NK mafia move.

Well maybe when you start sharing suspicions I will have something else to talk about. Trying to find a reason to lynch a mason sure isnt productive. Hows the reread going?

[LlamaFluff]

Here is where I am hung up a bit and it may come from only playing for *looks at signup date* a little less then three months.

It’s pretty hard to see them as not being buddies… - ZombieSlayer had said something along the lines of, "we lynch Firestarter today, and then when he comes up scum, we lynch this guy". Newb scum tend not to do that, because if they know that the first guy isnt scum, why would they make themselves look opportunistic and draw themselves against another target which will never happen?

Zombie flipped mafia spy. Now I do not know exactly what that role is and how it mixes in with the who knows who aspect of the game. It seems like a mix of traitor and rolecop, but who knows who is something that I dont know. Is this like the traitor where only ZS knows the scum, reverse of that or is it double blind?

I thought it was like traitor but if im wrong I do need to rethink this.

[LlamaFluff]

Interesting idea, i hadnt thought of that. I was more leaning towards the 'rolecop' side of the track, but you might be right. Either way, ZS definitely would have known who was scum, so his setting up multiple lynches stands. On the other hand, if FS didnt realise he was scum, that might explain why you guys dont think it feels like bussing from his part.

Well this is what is bugging me about Alvinz. He seems to know for sure what the spy entails for who knows what and used it as a defense for SG a bit. He also abandoned the Zombie wagon for me at the end of D1, which may of been a predicesor to a case D2. He appeared more interested in voting me untill I claimed mason, even then it wasnt an immediate belief

First of all I'd like to say that the "Mafia Spy" is unknown to the mafia, so there is a very good chance that scum were on the wagon as they unknowingly bussed their "partner".

Ok Alvinz - How do you know this role schematics, either provide a link to a game or something if you can because you knowing this as mafia lines up with your actions a bit.

[LlamaFluff]

Wiki says that Zombie --> scum is blind
You say that scum ---> Zombie is blind in what I quoted

I think given the nature of the role scum ----> Zombie would be known, as to be effective he would have to drop tells and be picked up on by scum. Scum *should* at least be allowed to know where they are looking.

That just made me interested because scum not knowing Zombie and you as scum makes sense. It was also partially the "how does this person know so much about the set up" tell where you seemed to know something no one else did about scum setup.

[LlamaFluff]

I still like a jas vote more then a FS vote. I would like to hear from CKD and jas though before this day ends, hopefully rereads are done soon but I would bet jas never finishes his

[LlamaFluff]

your vote is all we need at this point. Unless you are scum, and FS isnt. In which case, you'd better get working on a defence!

BM

Well im not letting Iron get lynched today or ever so that wont really be a problem for him, there is ZERO reason for me to be alive if he is scum, zero. My death would of made him confirmed but he lurks so much it would not be unheard of to kill off actives. I still am not too sure of a FS case though, ZS as spy does mess with my logic though. I see almost every player being mafia though before FS. My read just may suddenly be way off, but I have a town read on him. I think jas makes a lot of sense as scum, and so does Amor really. Jas should be lynched though today though to me. It has nearly been a month since he posted, which means he is picking up prods and just not posting.

If jas doesnt post by monday though, he

NEEDS

to be replaced (or we can save time and lynch him).

[LlamaFluff]

Vote: Firestarter

Ok, now do BM and CKD get why I want jas dead? This is a typical content post from him. Lets lynch the scum

[LlamaFluff]

call me naive but I still get a gut feeling of two scum left. There has been one NK, twice. So unless we have SK and mafia lining up double kills, or vig not shooting, or a doctor getting very lucky. I put my money on two scum left. 4 is excessive but with a spy that to me hints at lots of town roles, and it also allows bussing of a partner on accident. All speculation though, I dont like BM seeming to justify a lynch on the fact that there is one scum left.

That said, I still am not sure that FS is the best lynch we have today. I reread CV/SG and I may of been a bit premature just throwing him in my town collumn, but there are people I would rather lynch, quite a few of them. Maybe I just have a hard time understanding BMs case style, but I dont see enough on FS to get my vote right now, and I think jas is the right path to be taking.

[LlamaFluff]

You think there's not much on Firestarter as compared to... [jas]? The [jas] case to me essentially seems to be that he's lurking and following the trend, which mafia members do do, and I certainly don't think he's particularly likely to be town. His last "post" actually reassures me though. If he were just trying to stay in the shadows he likely would have posted some sort of explanation. But a post with just a vote does draw a lot of attention to you. At the moment it seems like [jas] is lurking less as a strategy and more because of lack of time/desire to play. Which doesn't neccesarily mean he's town, but I don't think he's particularly scummy either.

Well part of my problem is that I am increadably obstinant, especially when I have a town read on a player which I have on FS. I *usually* am better at figuring out who is town then who is scum, more of a deconstructive proof. jas just sets off bells to me though, he never took a strong stance on the no lynch, despite leaning towards FS. Still seemed looking for a reason to lynch iron post claim. Leaned FS over ZS (to scum this would of looked like town over town) which would allow continuation of FS lynch. Yeah that it from him.

Also speculation is fair game to me if BM is using it to justify defending the jas wagon over the FS wagon. I am confused over the setup though, as I cant remember any games shaping up like this before.

[LlamaFluff]

How the hell can you have a town read on FS? You just blew my mind. Srsly. 0.o
I really hate people who tunnel-vision and arent willing to change their minds in the face of strong evidence against them. I can be just as bad myself, but at least i'm trying to work on it. lol

Im working on it too, just not too great at it yet. The interactions with SG made me start leaning town on him though, SG was a newer player and chose to go with FS over ZS for the most part, new players dont seem to bus unprompted as much from past experiance.

ZS was town? :S

Spy, from which ive gathered might of made him appear town to scum. Again though, I have no clue how this role really works, but know traitor appears town to scum. If he appeared town, then we should treat the votes on him as scum hunting/mislynching not scum hunting/bussing

[LlamaFluff]

Okay, by way of explanation. Yes, I put myself out there with the vote. I did it to gauge reactions though. I'll leave you all to draw your own conclusions on those reactions for now.

thinking this statement is bullshit. What conclusion did you draw? If you have drawn conclusion, why have you not told us what they were yet?

yet another gem on why we should be lynching jas over FS here. I think FS getting mad at being the target really isnt the right thing since judging by past posts FS should of been jas' target, convinant as it may be. I really need to think about this game for a bit and put aside my frustration at quite a few of the players.

As of now though I still see jas as the lynch, and will be keeping my vote there.

[LlamaFluff]

also has this question been answered and I have missed it...I would like both Llama AND IM to answer.

in your PM, are you told that you know the ALIGNMENT of your mason partner?

Nowhere in my PM does it say that Iron is confirmed town. I have never seen a game with unconfirmed masons that the role does not hint at it though, so I am willing to bet quite a bit on Iron being town right now.

Iron man is a "mason" and that is all I have on him

[LlamaFluff]

hmmm, so what BW to join...ugh...

jas... duh

well after he claims, at his rate of posting that will take a week at least

[LlamaFluff]

So you did. I still stand by that you are the right lynch though. Any thoughts on any player apart from FS though?

@CKD - This obsession with the mason thing is making me uneasy right now for a few reasons.

1) You were one of my top suspects coming into today, you replaced someone I considered scummy and we quick lynched (grrr) D2

2) You really are making a point of having a hard time deciding between wagons, which is starting to make me wary that both are on town and you are setting up two mislynches

3) You are pushing the mason thing which I dont see as something that is to be of concern, I see no way at all Iron-scum would let me live. All he would of had to do was NK me and say that the role said confirmed town.


So this is just me being confused again. I want jas lynched, I want CKD lynched as assuming one scum I would put them in that pair. I still have a hard time really getting my head around a FS lynch, possibly because I used him as town in my entire SG case and that played out so well. BM is annoying me to death because of my thoughts on FS are so conflicting with him (and partially because this has been the first time since what, page 10 Ive been challenged as town leader *lol*). Just confused here, I am second guessing a lot that is going on right now. I know its similar to what happened D1 and its just how I play, but I have that impending doom feeling and I dont want a sweep to get away from us.

[LlamaFluff]

qft. In fact, with 2 mafia power roles dead already, i wouldnt be atall surprised to see a mafia mason make the set.

BM

There is only one mafia power dead by my count...

[LlamaFluff]

I really need some time to think, every time I reread a player or a game my theorys never quite line up. During about three game reads and three more CV/SG specific reads, ive come up with everyone but Alvinz as scum. Im starting to wonder a bit on Iron now which really is bugging me because im WIFOMing the hell out of that situation given what I have written to him and got back. It just seems that I can draw conclusions to everyone being scum at this point, but am not sure which is the right one to trust. Gut, brain and heart all tell me something different right now...

unvote

also @BM - I liked the "DramaLlama" title, feels fitting for me in this game where I really have had a hard time keeping my train of thought on the track.

[LlamaFluff]

Lets try a new approach to this

@Amor/FS/jas - Why are you NOT scum?

[LlamaFluff]

well right now my vote will probally go to amor or jas, but given that you are a candidate for lynch I would like to see a different type of defense from you, and this might be a way to get it

[LlamaFluff]

Process of Elim time

I dont think Iron is scum given mason night talk
I dont think Alvinz is scum given he doesnt fit the part
I dont think FS is scum given his interactions

BM might be scum but the pieces dont fit too well
CKD might be scum but I like the stances he is taking today
jas might be scum but there is too little to really nail him

This leaves Amor, who I have a hard time dismissing as scum compared to anyone else.

I want to see where this vote leads as PoE makes it a good option

vote Amor

Im pressed for time and will discribe what I see here more later on, monday at the latest

[LlamaFluff]

Im pressed for time and will discribe what I see here more later on, monday at the latest

Like I said, low on time right now. Should be able to lay this out a bit more later, patience please

A prod on jas would be nice too, or just replace him

[LlamaFluff]

this game really isn't going to develop until either FS or myself are dead. Make it happen.

BM

I think this is very stupid, and I would probally vote for you over FS if I was forced to right now.

I am leaning to a jas or amor lynch right now, preferably amor. I will put up a case later tonight probally

FS is grasping with the two power role thing though, stop that.

[LlamaFluff]

Amor has played a very interesting game, a lot of tunnel vision here, especially during day one. If you take a look at how he played though in comparison with who was scum there are a few unsettling things.

The biggest thing was his complete ignorance of ZS and SG, these are both important regarding timeframes.

Shadow is mentioned in Amors 17 (A17 and others quoted like this) when he questions the vote of FS without reading the thread carefully. With a spy setup that leads me to a setup where last two scum know eachother so appears to be a pair. That would be SG following her partner here on a large wagon, something that Amor wouldnt want happening, FS was intended to be the D2 lynch (more on this later).

A19 is great he calls SG not scummy at all, and never even mentioned who she replaced (except accidently in A9 where he mixed up me and CV about being suspicious of XR who became town-FL). In this post though he pushes a IM->SG connection but it is stated oddly.

, at this point I would only seriously suspect her as scum if we knew for sure Iron Man was also scum.

Now this to me is very ugly now that we know that SG is scum. It gave Amor a suspicion of SG, who I was vocal of distrusting. However, it never would need to be cashed in, Amor knows that Iron is town at this point so never would need to be afraid of that connection. For the first time in a long time here Amor starts considering IM as a vote too, although far and away FS seems to still be his vote leader.

Day 2 this gets fun. Amor opens up with a blatant defense of SG in A28, calling ZSs role makes my case against SG weaker due to mechanics (I really want to know this role now, its bugging me a lot).

A29 is more scum posting. He rereads SG and decides that all her posts are BS. Wow, just wow. Up untill this point in the game the most suspicion that SG had gotten from him were a coaching feeling A17 and the Iron post of A19. This also was a hammer, which stopped all discussion and prevented CKD and jas from even speaking about the lynch, which was increadably anti-town.

Im going to take a small break now but will be posting more later

[LlamaFluff]

Shadow is mentioned in Amors 17 (A17 and others quoted like this) when he questions the vote of FS without reading the thread carefully. With a spy setup that leads me to a setup where last two scum know eachother so appears to be a pair. That would be SG following her partner here on a large wagon, something that Amor wouldnt want happening, FS was intended to be the D2 lynch (more on this later).

This seems like pure speculation, and I'm sure you can draw "if these two are scum, then this is why they did that" connections between nearly everyone in this game.

My point is you never even acknowlaged them untill this point in the game, which is odd to me, its not like CV was never mentioned in the game.

A19 is great he calls SG not scummy at all, and never even mentioned who she replaced (except accidently in A9 where he mixed up me and CV about being suspicious of XR who became town-FL). In this post though he pushes a IM->SG connection but it is stated oddly.

, at this point I would only seriously suspect her as scum if we knew for sure Iron Man was also scum.

Now this to me is very ugly now that we know that SG is scum. It gave Amor a suspicion of SG, who I was vocal of distrusting. However, it never would need to be cashed in, Amor knows that Iron is town at this point so never would need to be afraid of that connection. For the first time in a long time here Amor starts considering IM as a vote too, although far and away FS seems to still be his vote leader.

You have to look at the context of this statement. Some people were suggesting that SG was suspicious because of Iron Man's strong defense of her, saying that there was a connection between the two. I was saying that there was no reason to seriously suspect someone on connections to someone who we didn't know was scum. This is perfectly logical.

In A18 you brought up the IM->SG connection. Knowing IM town I challenged this pretty fast, and you backed up a bit on your stance in your next post. At this point though you really seemed to only see FS as scum, and its odd to me to throw out a connection between your by far second pick and the person who flipped scum. This was logical, but the fact that you had ignored SG mostly untill up to this point and then agreed on another persons connection (which would never come to pass) that put your mate at scum looked odd.

Day 2 this gets fun. Amor opens up with a blatant defense of SG in A28, calling ZSs role makes my case against SG weaker due to mechanics (I really want to know this role now, its bugging me a lot).

Yes, because your case was based on connections between ZS and SG, whereas ZombieFluff flipping as a spy makes me think that ZS and the rest of the mafia didn't know each other. Because of this it makes a case based mainly on connections a lot weaker. Again, I think this is a reasonable point to make.

You still basically dismissed the entire case against SG here. While part of my case was based on interactions, it was not the entire reason I was voting for SG. This post of yours tried to shutdown my case and probally redirect it as FS in the future.

A29 is more scum posting. He rereads SG and decides that all her posts are BS. Wow, just wow. Up untill this point in the game the most suspicion that SG had gotten from him were a coaching feeling A17 and the Iron post of A19. This also was a hammer, which stopped all discussion and prevented CKD and jas from even speaking about the lynch, which was increadably anti-town.

Well, was I wrong? And CKD and jas had plenty of time to speak, and I'm not sure what great loss it is that they didn't weigh in. Yeah, I saw all the suspicion on ShadowGirl and decided to take another look at her. Are you suggesting that as scum I would hammer my own partner before other people could come in to possibly defend her? WIFOM I know, but still.

Your actions were wrong, very wrong. You hammered before everyone had a chance to weigh in. Also FS, who was a top suspect of yours then, and now, had stuck an early vote on SG. I do not understand why you would be wanting to hammer someone with so little discussion who has the vote of your top suspect, who you defended just a little bit ago. When this happened I honestly though "damn I was wrong, Amor is probally scum not SG". Right now it looks like both of you.

The fact is that your hammer made no sense. Thirty posts spanning four days (including a weekend), is hardly enough time for jas and CKD to check in, a week would be more appropriate. FS who you had pushed for all of D1 had just tacked on a vote putting SG at L-2, and you hammered. You went from defending SG to hammering her in one post without explaining a switch to well. These things just look like scum trying to shut down a day with no conversation.

Also, at no point other than maybe immediately after she replaced in did I say I thought SG was town, only pointed out the flaws in arguments against her. If I had turned around and voted her based on her connection with ZS, that would be something, but in the end I hammered just because her posts didn't sit right with me.

Well kind of my point. You never gave any great reason for hammering her, you ignored my posts about her (and CV) during D1. The way it happened, especially your moves and FSs moves look way off.

More coming tonight

[LlamaFluff]

Dont know where exactly I stand on the BM/FS exchange. I have been on the town receiving side of BM's attacks and know that sometimes his confidence blinds him. that being said, he sometimes has decent insights. Right now, I think that FS and BM are probably two townies bumping heads. If a gun was put to my head, I would say that BM is probably town out of the pair (atm).

I think that Amor is the lynch today, but might not shy away from a jas lynch at this point.

ALvin needs to comment and commit more.

This is a very very good post, I basically agree with everything said.

[LlamaFluff]

LF and Iron Man are confirmed, and I don't think Firestarter is scum no matter how much I might want to because of how ZS and SG went after him and vice versa. That cuts the possibilities for the last scum down to [jas], CKD, BM and alvinz. None of those immediately jump out as scummy for anything other than lurking, but I will take a closer look at them soon.

I was rereading you again and picked up this gem Day 3. This really is out of place, almost like someone else posted it.

During day one you were COMPLETELY obsessed with getting FS lynched, you didnt take any other option seriously at all. By the end of the day you were the only active person who still wanted FS lynched, which really sits poorly with me. You ignored the ZS (mislynch appearing) case, saying you dont see it. Instead you are lined up perfectly behind FS for a push for him tomorrow, apart from SG he was the only other player really getting any attention.

Now D2 you just outright hammer SG. That was scummy, and ive gone over why I am comfortable with your lynch almost exclusively for that move.

Later you return to the hyper pushing of FS which still sits poorly with me on two things. 1) You went for SG and not FS day 2. You had discussed FS far more and really left SG out of a LoS. 2) You say ZS-spy takes away from your defense. You also cited reasons of FS-town though because of SG-scum. This never changed.

Oh yeah there was also this post

My feelings on FS at the moment ar e alittle strange, individually he's acted very scummy but his connections with ZombieSlayer54 and ShadowGirl would seem to suggest otherwise. SG voted for him in her first post, and of course ZS has a protracted argument with him. Of course bussing happens, but I doubt that the same player who voted No Lynch would be able to credibly bus one of his partners. Perplexing.

Any guesses on RealityFan's investigation? SG was pretty much the only person he talked about on Day 2, so there's probably nothing useful there, but maybe someone else can see something that I can't.

More FS leaning town and some blatant fishing for RFs night move. Lynch Amor already please?

Maybe more coming tonight. I have a lot of free time tonight (and yes im a loser for spending it scumhunting)

@BM - lol again @ calling me dramallama. For some reason I love that

[LlamaFluff]

Waiting for more votes on Amor, more player analysis from jas, BM to stop being stubborn (which may take a long time)

[LlamaFluff]

@mod

can you send a prod jas' way?

[LlamaFluff]

LF: The reason for my hesitation was FS's connections to the others, but BM's arguments managed to convince me that it was possible they were just bussing. That's the reason for my change today.

You never really looked at anyone else though was one thing that bugged me here. It may of been lack of time but when you give that the scum pool is jas/CKD/alvinz/BM and never persue it, followed by an immediate return to FS when ZS was remembered as spy I dont get it. If I have this right you think that ZS/FS didnt know eachother and FS/SG were bussing. My only problem with this is that ZS was spy and if that is synonomus with traitor, ZS knew of FS and that attack didnt seem too much like bussing to me.

As to whether it was okay to hammer then, it's obvious that this is a strategy disagreement, but I think 4 days is enough of a window for everyone to post in. And can you point to a tangible thing we lost from not having CKD and [jas] post on that day?

Well given that I suspected both of these people and that I was pretty sure that SG was scum, you shut down any information I could of gotten from these two players. At the start of D3 they were both in your suspect list too, so you killed any information from suspects you could of gotten which does not seem to pro-town to me.

And what the hell is "fishing for a night move" and why is that scummy?

Night move... not right move. In fact looking for the night move was not the right move (sorrt had to say that). You openly asked for anyone knowing what RF figured out. I dont like CKD and FS responding to that though.

[LlamaFluff]

You know what would be cool? The FS voters saying what they think of Amor.

[LlamaFluff]

Waiting for more votes on Amor, more player analysis from jas, BM to stop being stubborn (which may take a long time)

hypocrite. It unnerves me that you seem 100% sure FS is town. In the event of him not being scum, i'll be looking at you. Mason claim, or otherwise.

I know im stubborn, that was ment to be sarcastic. I just dont like FS as the lynch today given how he interacted with ZS and SG. From past experiance traitor/spy knows who scum is, and I dont think ZS behaived like someone who knew who scum was and was supposed to get them information. SG is also iffy to me.

FS town and you will be up my list a bit too, I at least have been explaining myself as to why I dont want a FS lynch, you are more ignoring my Amor case.

[LlamaFluff]

qft. In fact, with 2 mafia power roles dead already, i wouldnt be atall surprised to see a mafia mason make the set.
BM

Ive pointed out something I believe to be a scumtell, whether its a big or small scumtell is irrelevent, its a scumtell.

This is what i want to emphasise here, rather than wasting my time picking through the garbage. Can EVERYBODY please give their thoughts on whether they feel my comment could be seen as a scumtell.
I want people's opinions down on this. I'd especially like to hear from CKD, because i know he will give the correct answer, and Llama, because i want to see if he'll reach so far to defend FS as to defend his idiocy too.

You two are getting pretty damn annoying you know? It feels like townie vs townie here more then anything else, FS is pissed at BM so wont let anything go, BM like me is stubborn as hell so wont let this go.

That said though I already addressed this point. FS is reaching a bit. I have seen ONE game, ever, where there was a scum role that wasnt publicly revealed and just was "goon" on flip. I dont see it happening here.

[LlamaFluff]

Correction- you've ATTEMPTED to explain why you dont want an FS lynch. Dont be under any illusions that i'm buying any of it.

Correction of the Correction - I have explained, whether you accept what I said or not is your choice. On the other hand you haven not really given me any reasons not to lynch Amor except that FS is scum. While this *technically* qualifies, it bypasses defending Amor and allows you to wagon him later without having to explain yourself.

So again - Why is Amor town? (without mentioning FSs alignment)

[LlamaFluff]

V/LA from the 11th-13th. Im pretty sure people know what my thoughts are so there is no need to reiterate them though. Someone needs to force BM to comment on Amor though.

[LlamaFluff]

Correction- you've ATTEMPTED to explain why you dont want an FS lynch. Dont be under any illusions that i'm buying any of it.

Correction of the Correction - I have explained, whether you accept what I said or not is your choice. On the other hand you haven not really given me any reasons not to lynch Amor except that FS is scum. While this *technically* qualifies, it bypasses defending Amor and allows you to wagon him later without having to explain yourself.

So again - Why is Amor town? (without mentioning FSs alignment)

For this to constitute a valid point against me, you would be making the assumption that Amor is town, in which case you shouldn't be voting for him.

BM

I hate BM

Really though... you seem to ignore my case without even giving me any good reasons to brush it aside and its really starting to get at me. I know that it is similar to me not taking the FS case, but I am giving reasons. You just are giving me lip. Lets try it again.

Why do you think Amor is not scum? What points of mine do you not agree with?

With a deadline approaching, I would be willing to go back to a jas lynch. I know he is modding a game right now, so there is no reason for him to of just disappeared in this one. I dont think anyone else should be lynched today so wont be putting my vote anywhere apart from Amor/jas

[LlamaFluff]

With a deadline approaching, I would be willing to go back to a jas lynch. I know he is modding a game right now, so there is no reason for him to of just disappeared in this one.

Disappeared, or just nothing to say? I'm not one to speak unless I've got something to input. At the moment, the circular arguments aren't anything I want anything to do with, really...

Disappeared, definantly. Well you said there would be an analysis of all players, a wagon appeared on Amor and went away, BM/FS are still fighting, FS has been vote hopping. I really dont see what circular arguments you are talking about avoiding.

If I need to be direct I will be direct.

1) What do you think of the Amor case/wagon?
2) Who is your #2 suspect?
3) Where is that analysis?

I will probally have more by the time these get answered

[LlamaFluff]

As far as 1 and 2 on your list, did you miss post #742?

Or do I have to pad it with more words to make it acceptable to you?

Ok so your LoS is FS/alvins/amor, fair enough. You did ignore my #3 though. I will make some more though

1) Why is alvinz your #2 suspect?
2) What points against Amor do you not agree with?
3) Where is your other player analysis? (given your LoS im looking forward to this now)

[LlamaFluff]

what happened to the FS case?

[LlamaFluff]

I am going to

unvote

just incase someone is stubborn enough to hammer

Also @BM - I guess this is what happens when an unstoppable force hits and unmoveable object; BM votes Amor

[LlamaFluff]

So first, my claim (which I am baffled why amor would replace out of in this situation) :

Day kill vigilante (1 shot). This claim will obv be easy to confirm or prove false.

2nd - suspects: mostly everybody I think alvinz is flying under the radar though. [jas] for inactivity and FS for train hopping repeatedly today - even though he seemed sure I was scum.

Proving this would be good I think, who to prove it on is another thing though entirely. jas would be my first choice though. Maybe a jas vig and FS lynch would be an acceptable route to take. Not to outguess the mod but a day vig scum is pretty strong for a goon-?-spy setup.

proposal: Mass claim! 12 player game is typ. 3 scum. Probably one left. We have 2 mason (for now discounting one of them as scum - but not out of the realm of possibility - can you confirm if you are 100% sure your partner is town?). With 8 players left that leaves 6 suspects. I say we mass claim and I can shoot one player. Then town can vote me off if they still wish (if I am scum, then game over, right?). Even if wrong, your potential suspect list is significantly narrowed down.

If we do a popcorn mass claim, I would like FS to claim next.

I would wait on mass claim untill the next day, with masons, you and a cop dead I would doubt there are many if any power roles left. I have said before though, it does NOT say in the mason PM that Iron is confirmed town to me, it doesnt say anything that would make me doubt he is either though.

[LlamaFluff]

from those I would say vig jas, lynch alvinz.

I think jas should go either way, but alvinz/FS I dont care a whole lot about which one goes. I need to reread alvinz before I come to a definate conclusion.

[LlamaFluff]

I read alvinz and I would actually prefer a jas/alvinz vig/lynch then throwing FS in there.

First Alvinz ignored SG completely day one. Only mentioning her early with

Newest replacement. So far pretty good with a good analysis. Read:

Neutral

Alvinz says that she is doing pretty good, analysis is fine, and that makes her just neutral. CV who SG replaced for was never mentioned by him.

Late in D1 I dropped off the ZS wagon to push at SG. Now to scum ZS appeared town and SG scum. When this happened Alvinz flipped. He dropped the case he was pushing to start pushing me for abandoning the case on ZS. This looks like classic chainsaw defense here, I start pushing scum, Alvinz calls that a scum move. There was no defense of SG, just attack on me.

Then there was the whole mason thing. There is one thing that is troubling to me there. This -

My plan: Get the partner mason to claim. Mason's aren't power roles. They are just a role that knows that their partner's are town. Scum could careless NK'ing them. They would definitely go for someone else. More confirmed people means better chances. If the "partner"'s claim is credible and the player has been pretty townly, don't lynch both of them, and get a new target since the chances have been increased. At night, if theres a cop, investigate Iron Man to see if he is the mason. With that, we will wake to Day 2 with a positive no matter what.

Lets point out all the wierd things in it. 1) "Scum could careless NK'ing them [masons]" - I am alive, Iron is alive. The why behind that has been troubling me but this just may be it. Also this may be why RF was killed

2) Guiding the cop - This is always bad, I dont think elaboration is necessary

3) Suggesting lynching masons - Alvinz basically says "make the partner claim, if they are scummy lynch one of them"

I think Alvinz was obsessed about getting masons to claim so he knew who didnt have a power role. For some reason he had the belief that scum would not bother to ever kill masons, and instead fish for others who might have roles.

Continuing though D2 Alvinz immediately goes back to his attack of me. However he is suddenly torn between me and SG as to where to put his vote. There is agreement with my analysis of SG, but continues the attack that my changing my vote to SG was an anti-town move. Also he speculated that I had reason to kill FL for a post I voted FL in...??

When I claimed mason, Alvinz immediately secondguessed my claim, saying that I was BSing it due to taking a long time to actually claim.

Finally Alvinz decided suddenly that SG is the right lynch, and jumps on me when I state that I did not want the wagon going as fast as it did. At this point scum knows that scum got hammered, so the argument that I was upset at SG getting lynched was good to plant before she actually flipped.

Kind of out of place in this thoughplan, but I dont think town-alvinz would of been voting for jas. FS was pushed by him a lot in the early game, and there was never any good reasons to of dropped that case. Alvinz now comes back and forgets about the jas vote, FS and Amor were the leading vote getters afterall.

I want alvinz lynched or vigged, as I still think FS is town. In fact

vote Alvinz

[LlamaFluff]

This should be apparent, but I dont think FS/Alvinz/jas should have votes count to the vig/lynch since they are the three we seem to be discussing. They can contribute to the discussion though and I want them to.

If it wasnt clear from my last post I would say

vig jas
lynch alvinz

[LlamaFluff]

You know what, everyone wants jas gone so I would say jas should claim and go from there

[LlamaFluff]

You know what, everyone wants jas gone so I would say jas should claim and go from there

I am actually leaning a little more towards alvinz myself.

This is also a good course of action. Day ending day vig really is unballanced in the favor of scum if they are a scum role.

Basically scum can win from there with 3 town 1 scum, vig town, NK town 1 to 1 and game. Spy might complicate this a little, but this means that the game is in possible end (vig/NK spy chance) with 5 town + 2 scum + spy if its day as vig town + NK town leaves 3 town and game ends. That means town loses at 8 players remaining and D2 is lylo. Thinking more spy wont get NKed as Amor would of just had to do is out himself, have spy confirm themselves by calling SG as scum #2 and vig/NK combo to a win.

Yeah this guy is town. Either a jas or alvinz vig is fine with me

[LlamaFluff]

I may just be increadably stubborn (and I know BM is going QFT just the start of this or something) but I really dont think FS is scum. It just doesnt seem to fit in the situations im playing out. I think by all reasonable standards I should of been the NK the first night, or at very least the second night. I was one of the inital pushes on the ZS wagon while making it perfectly clear SG was my next lynch. D2 I carried through my SG attack to a lynch and claimed mason. I think almost any scum would of taken me out by now, the only two that I think may not of would of been jas (for lack of knowing whats going on) and alvinz (for his power role theory).

FS is one of my most town at this point along with, ex-amor, BM and IM, CKD keeps dancing that line too. I think the last scum is either jas or alvinz, FS just doesnt fit the puzzle.

[LlamaFluff]

unvote

to make sure no one hammers, this is the day we test the vig claim, not lynch someone.

I think the mob has spoken though and a claim is needed

[LlamaFluff]

It sucks to be chosen by 2 random voting patterns people, someone that hasn't done anything, and a vig.

Read my last few posts, through actions I had seen I was ready to nearly bet the game on IM, FS, BM, bio all being town, CKD looked fairly town with a few reservations. That left jas and you. If bio was vanilla though I think that he would of been the lynch, thats what ended the game D3.

Anyways, im always kinda spazzy on voting untill I get confident. D1 I was pretty sure on ZS for a while but the wagon felt wrong (in a way it was, scum thought it was a town wagon), so I switched to SG who I was my only other high suspect.

D2 was... wierd. That felt scum motivated and when SG got lynched in 30 posts I was sure that she was town actually. Hearing from everyone was the best thing to do though, so everything I said there did apply.

D3 I was a bit off, I was pissed at people for hammering, and had no idea where two of my picks stood on that wagon. All I really felt was FS was a mislynch. jas looked like a good pick due to RF flipping town (who in mason talk I had at my #1 or 2 pick actually). CKD never had a chance to stop my suspicion of him with D2 actions. After a while and too much reading Amor looked to be the best bet, and FS just looked town. I really could not explain it well. When Amor claimed it left jas and alvinz, alvinz fit a little better so that was the next path to take. Interestingly enough meta made me think not alvinz for a long time since I replaced him as scum in another game where the win chance seemed higher then this.

Oh yeah

@BM - Told ya FS was town.

[LlamaFluff]

My only regret is that it will take another few days for BM to eat his words about FS being scum. Dont doubt the town reads.