Mini Normal 2160 | FIA Group B | Endgame

[Billy Pilgrim]

i rolled scum this game and I absolutely hate it

Well in that case, let's kill scum. Choo choo guys.

VOTE: InnocentVillager

As they are neither innocent, nor a villager.

Ducky, S_S, thor, whats up y'all? I'm back.

[Billy Pilgrim]

wait, holy shit 11 pages, when did this game start? I just saw my pm.

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: Something_Smart

There were multiple options, why this one?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Ducky, S_S, thor, whats up y'all? I'm back.

welcome back <3 you were one of the reasons i joined this game.

and yeah we've been posting like, a lot. sorry.

Love you too man.

[Billy Pilgrim]

bad wagon is bad

VOTE: lavar

This pings me. Like a) why is the wagon bad; b)is this even the only wagon at this point? And if it isn't, why are the other wagons good?

[Billy Pilgrim]

The hunt of a meat beast is the greatest thing a man can do to be manly outside of being a proud Progressive from the Republican Party.

Oh shit this is gonna drive me crazy all game.

[Billy Pilgrim]

innocentvillager is joking way too much
VOTE: innocentvillager

You think this much joking only comes from scum? You ever play with Hectic?

[Billy Pilgrim]

We're not two pages in and lilith is already pocketing me :3

is it working?

VOTE: lilith

VOTE: lilith

right, my vote is now ~serious~

VOTE: SS

alright let's do this shit

Nepenthes, why did you pick SS over sausage / nor / me?

Why would I throw my weight in with RVS votes

SS was/is objectively scummiest

What about him is objectively scummy?

Is your vote here serious? Because i noticed you voted me after this? I actually liked you doubling down on the lavar vote here.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I am town.

Yeah, this slot is not giving me good feels at all.

VOTE: Lavar

[Billy Pilgrim]

Liliths also scummy

Why?

[Billy Pilgrim]

You're not adding anything new nor you're making it easy to read you

+1 are you one of the people in correspondence?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Someone was unstuck in time! BULLY!

I cant kill you today, congrats. Only the second person to get the reference (or at least say as much to me) and the first person is also in this player list.

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: Something_Smart

There were multiple options, why this one?

I doubt you really care about the answer to this question. I don't even think the answer really matters because it was clearly RVS vote.
VOTE: Billy Pilgrim

Wtf? Why did you make the assumption that I didn't care about the answer? Rvs isnt an answer. You had multiple options, 12 to be specific, why that one?

[Billy Pilgrim]

bad wagon is bad

VOTE: lavar

This pings me. Like a) why is the wagon bad; b)is this even the only wagon at this point? And if it isn't, why are the other wagons good?

I enjoy the fact that you're questioning both the wagon itself and me saying the wagon is bad

Its how I get into a game. You threw out a spicey take, so I engaged you on your take while I engaged with the wagon.

[Billy Pilgrim]

there are pros and cons to consolidating his catchup into one post.
him doing it over multiple posts lets us see what he's seeing / not seeing and the way his thoughts ~flow~ through the thread.

sorry to jump in and like, shoot you down but i don't think that's a particularly valuable request

See ducky has played with me before. I exclusively phone post so if this gets under your skin, sorry, its just the reality. And yeah, you get to track my progressions even when I'm out of the thread for hours. So sorry not sorry? Shrugs. Also, youre pushing weak sauce stuff so I think theres a better than average chance you're scum.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Though, the first time you said you wouldn't vote someone because they understood your username, you were scum... :thonk:

Very true, and I'm pretty sure you caught me. So let's see if thats AI (pro-tip - its not).

[Billy Pilgrim]

Wtf? Why did you make the assumption that I didn't care about the answer? Rvs isnt an answer. You had multiple options, 12 to be specific, why that one?

Then why didn't you ask everyone else why they voted who they voted?

Because you jumped onto a wagon and it stuck out since the others seemed to be votint people they knew and you naked voted like the 3rd vote. So thats why. Gonna answer or keep up this game.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I exclusively phone post

oh i forgot this tidbit!! phonepost squad

#SQUAD

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: Billy Pilgrim

Great I got a guy who's barely producing meaningful content hopping on my wagon. How the hell am i supposed to read this slot?

[Billy Pilgrim]

With your eyes!

This made me laugh.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Ok caught up. I like my vote on Lavar. They're playing aggro in a weird way, and both times I let myself get talked out of a read like this the person ended up flipping red. So im good here.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Sure S_S

Like, he's moving those early rvs votes around a good bit, but then at one point quotes the lillith vote while voting then later like gets mad at lillith for pushing them on it. Then 70 like really jumped out when they were under pretty minimal pressure.

Though I guess 141 is a bit townie in reconsidering.

And then the way he responds to my questions just felt unnecessarily defensive.

Like 329 isn't trying to sort me or even engage with me. He's just like trying to avoid suspicion.

[Billy Pilgrim]

This game started like 4 hours ago and we're 15 pages in.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Jesus fuck you people can post

vc

i'm gonna headcannon that this wasn't a mistake because it's funnier

I don't believe that was a mistake

it wasn't. you people really can fucking post

You said in the queue the playerlist was gonna be spicey.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Ducky, S_S, thor, whats up y'all? I'm back.

Wait, thor is in this game?
And I don't think I've played with you before, but apparently you know all the right people..

(And btw, Liverpool has always been my favorite team in the Premier League, and Michael Owen used to be my childhood hero when I was still playing football every day..
I had one of those very dark green kits from the early 2000's for Owen..I wore that shit until it literally fell apart. )

I dont think I've played with you before either. I dont have a memory of it. Thor is a nickname that someone gave Norwegianboy and it stuck for that game so im bringing it back.

And hell yeah Michael Owen.

[Billy Pilgrim]

bad wagon is bad

VOTE: lavar

This pings me. Like a) why is the wagon bad; b)is this even the only wagon at this point? And if it isn't, why are the other wagons good?

I enjoy the fact that you're questioning both the wagon itself and me saying the wagon is bad

Its how I get into a game. You threw out a spicey take, so I engaged you on your take while I engaged with the wagon.

Okay, did you see my response?

Yeah, it was 287, why?

[Billy Pilgrim]

This feels like TvT.

I domt know if it is, but you throwing this out there this early makes me think that you are.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Im voting zombie because i want more people to vote him so he'd drop his gimmick and provide some better content

I could get behind this, but I think the charmander is scum, so I want to be there.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I would literally bet my life on LavarManos being town, by the way.

Ok, please explain this.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I would literally bet my life on LavarManos being town, by the way.

tell me why

169

I think my words there say enough

Lets say this doesnt mean anything to me. Who did Lavar vote that was voting poorly?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I don’t feel like you engaged with my response so I’m interested in hearing how my response helped you sort me or how you expected it to help you sort me when you asked about the wagon

I liked your response thats why I didn't feel a need to follow it up. It was early I wasn't gonna get a whole hell of alot AI, but I liked your thoughts.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Im voting zombie because i want more people to vote him so he'd drop his gimmick and provide some better content

I could get behind this, but I think the charmander is scum, so I want to be there.

And after their most recent post, they are coming out with content, so i don't wanna kick them.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I would literally bet my life on LavarManos being town, by the way.

tell me why

169

I think my words there say enough

Lets say this doesnt mean anything to me. Who did Lavar vote that was voting poorly?

I never said Lavar voted someone who was voting poorly, I voted for people who were voting poorly.

Ok, you were asked to explain why "you would bet your life that Lavar was town." You referred us to 169 and said "I think my words there say enough."

Those words referred to you voting people that voted poorly. So now I'm going to ask again, why is Lavar town?

[Billy Pilgrim]

This feels like TvT.

I domt know if it is, but you throwing this out there this early makes me think that you are.

What about it was town-indicative?

I feel like emotional outbursts are easily pushable. So for thor to sit back from that rather than use it as an opportunity to push someone felt townie. I think the only world that comes from scum is when one of their partners were in the 1v1.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I domt know if it is, but you throwing this out there this early makes me think that you are.

orly? how so?

Did you see 609?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I think the only world that comes from scum is when one of their partners were in the 1v1.

Have you heard of the TMI tell? It's actually one of the more reliable global tells, if hard to apply.

Heard of it, in fact you literally used it this game, but its hard for me to distinguish between a tmi tell vs. a read I don't quite understand.

[Billy Pilgrim]

wait who is Thor??? I need to know

Norse god of thunder.

Good answer. Its Norwee. Sorry.

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: Billy Pilgrim

Let’s go here

Why are you going here?

Why are you defending me?

[Billy Pilgrim]

This feels like TvT.

I domt know if it is, but you throwing this out there this early makes me think that you are.

What about it was town-indicative?

I feel like emotional outbursts are easily pushable. So for thor to sit back from that rather than use it as an opportunity to push someone felt townie. I think the only world that comes from scum is when one of their partners were in the 1v1.

Are you townreading both me and una?

At this stage of the game, I'm trying to settle in. I dont have much of a read on either of you. I liked your questions to me about my questions of you, so your probably a couple shades above the null line. I dont have much on Una at all. Right now, I'm interested in pushing Lavar, and I wanna know whats up with Four and this bizarre defense of them.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I can’t find it now (can someone please help me find this) but someone said that it seemed like lavar was pocketing foureyes, and I actually think foureyes has been buddying lavar for a while now

Maybe they’re just scumbuddies?

+1 but I didnt see that.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I did see it now, that was what my TMI question was about. If it's hard for you to distinguish a TMI, what makes you think that Norwee's post wasn't it?

I dont think its not the tmi tell, and I dont think I said i did. That double negative drive me crazy so let me say, it could be the tmi tell. I know that in real time I said that that comment made me think he was probably town after you commented about the tmi tell, but i only read your comment after I already put my thoughts in the thread. And then I read it and thought hmmm... thats interesting, I have no idea how to evaluate that.

I used to play poker. Like alot of poker. And like that game, this game requires you to know what level of thought you're at and what level of thought your opponent is at. But also. This game has a team element and you don't want to miscommunication where you're at to your teammates. So im not going to pretend I can effectively distinguish a tmi tell from a read that I either don't understand or that I don't agree with, because we all approach this game from different angles. So I think youre thinking that I considered that it was a tmi tell and rejected it. I didn't. Stealing from John Oliver for a minute, I'm the lemur, and the tmi tell is the Supreme Court vacancy. Only difference is that id kinda like to develop it at some point in the future.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Billy, i haven't stated a TR on you. And i didn't do anything other than ask if IV had any reason for changing his vote to you.

Why is that me defending you?

Eh read too much into it i guess.

[Billy Pilgrim]

That was such a weird comment to make that i wanna go here for now.

Do you think he is scum trying to fake paranoia? I can see it going both ways.

Also, how was I pocketing foureyes? I haven't even interacted with him at all!

Who said you were pocketing foureyes?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I can’t find it now (can someone please help me find this) but someone said that it seemed like lavar was pocketing foureyes, and I actually think foureyes has been buddying lavar for a while now

Maybe they’re just scumbuddies?

+1 but I didnt see that.

What are you plus oneing if you didnt see it

I was +1 that it felt like foureyes was buddying lavar. I didn't see the comment that lavar was pocketing foureyes.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I haven't seen a vote count in a while. I think that Lillith, Norway, IV, and Four are on me. I can't remember if lavar is still on me. I have no issues with Lillith, I made that clear earlier. I think theyre town. And Norway is shades above the null line as well. Like the other three are almost playing in a way thats like deliberately inscrutable. Though I'd rank that as Foureyes>Lavar>IV. And I find that playstyle hard to read as town. Doesnt mean its for certain scum, but i feel like probably.

VOTE: Foureyes

Its also possible that ducky is on me, and theres no way I'm gonna have a good read on that slot yet.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I am not on you

BP does this change your opinion on four eyes slot?

Nope.

[Billy Pilgrim]

BILLY
HELLO

Hi *waves*

[Billy Pilgrim]

BILLY
HELLO

Hi *waves*

BILLY WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT LILITH SCUMm READING YOU FOR YOUR AWFUL POSTS

Her read seems genuine. Like i don't know that she'd push back this aggressively when meeting resistance, but this is my first game with her so thats not like an experiential read.

[Billy Pilgrim]

BILLY WHERE YOU AT

Were you looking for points? Or their defense?

[Billy Pilgrim]

tell me now

what do I get out of doing that?

better chance of me carrying you

I can carry myself just fine thanks

alright dont blame me if I just sort him by shooting him at night

are you claiming a shot?

Pretty transparent rolefish here. You worried?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I was +1 that it felt like foureyes was buddying lavar. I didn't see the comment that lavar was pocketing foureyes.

Whend you go from lavar scumread to thinking four was buddying lavar

There's 13 players in this list. Lavar is playing strange, defensive, and in ways that don't make sense to me. On top of that you have these bizarre statements from four which basically amounts to hes town because i said so. So maybe its buddying maybe they're both scum.

[Billy Pilgrim]

in general I feel like his posts have been more geared towards seeming like he's sorting people than actually attempting to sort people. The questions he asked me were very.... like I'm not actually sure how my answers were going to help him sort me, it looked like he asked me questions just to look like he was doing things. He also questioned both sides of the wagon (ie both lavar and me) in the same kind of way. And when I asked how my response helped him sort me, he basically just said my response was good. I think also the early townread on me feels kind of buddying-adjacent, and so does the townread on Norweeeeeej

This applies to iv too imo like even on this page
Somebody hated the poker post from billy but i kindve liked it it is a fucking weird post but in an i want to be heard kinda way

Who hated my poker post?

[Billy Pilgrim]

in general I feel like his posts have been more geared towards seeming like he's sorting people than actually attempting to sort people. The questions he asked me were very.... like I'm not actually sure how my answers were going to help him sort me, it looked like he asked me questions just to look like he was doing things. He also questioned both sides of the wagon (ie both lavar and me) in the same kind of way. And when I asked how my response helped him sort me, he basically just said my response was good. I think also the early townread on me feels kind of buddying-adjacent, and so does the townread on Norweeeeeej

This applies to iv too imo like even on this page
Somebody hated the poker post from billy but i kindve liked it it is a fucking weird post but in an i want to be heard kinda way

Who hated my poker post?

Thats at Nepenthes. Please direct me to the post you're talking about.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Like here’s Billy questioning Lavar about his vote and implying that Lavar’s vote was bad

VOTE: Something_Smart

There were multiple options, why this one?

And here’s Billy saying I’m scummy for thinking Lavar’s vote was bad

bad wagon is bad

VOTE: lavar

This pings me. Like a) why is the wagon bad; b)is this even the only wagon at this point? And if it isn't, why are the other wagons good?

I enjoy the fact that you're questioning both the wagon itself and me saying the wagon is bad

Its how I get into a game. You threw out a spicey take, so I engaged you on your take while I engaged with the wagon.

After I voted him, he changed his mind to say he was townreading me by saying he liked that I doubled down on my Lavar vote, but that contradicts him saying it was scummy for me to question Lavar’s vote originally (and I think is an attempt to get me to back off). Also note he calls it a “spicy take” the second time he talks about it (which is, again, after I voted him).

How could my saying Lavar’s vote was bad ping him while he simultaneously agreed with it? How does asking me whether this is the only wagon and whether the other wagons were good help him sort me? What is my answer to that (which is going to be factual regardless of alignment) going to say about me that is AI and that he couldn’t have read himself on the page he was reading?

I also just hugely dislike this fencesitty positioning of “oh I’m engaging with both you and the wagon” and somehow managing to scumread both sides of it

I think i now understand what's going on. I wasn't scumreading you or even him I think at the time I made that post. I dont think i got to scumreading him until the i am town response when he started feeling pressure. As for you, I dont think i ever scumread you. Yeah, the objective fact that there was more than one wagon doesn't help me sort you, but your response, that you called out the false dichotomy that I had set up did help me. Also the more sorting question of asking why the wagon was bad also helped. It let me know you are also looking for reasons and have an innate hesitation towards naked votes. But if you think my questions mean I'm scumreading people then I think I get why you hated this post so much.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Refusing to cooperate and no signs or indication of a game solving mindset.

Err

Those are towntells...

Literally just caught scum as a result of them doing this.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I guess Worst is town. They’re posting a lot.

This is not a good way to read the foul. He played a newbie scumgame with me and he hyperposted and I think I only caught him when he claimed a pr and I was a mason.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Literally just caught scum as a result of them doing this.

Link?

[Redacted]

[Billy Pilgrim]

Literally just caught scum as a result of them doing this.

Link?

[Redacted]

I'm flipped and so was the other player so I dont think it violated the spirit of the rule, but i don't wanna link directly to it since its ongoing.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I'm just gonna pretend this conversation never happened.

Thats fine, but im making it clear that I dont see it as a towntell.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Also, Kraeg in this game is another good example when people townread him as a result of your towntell and he ended up flipping scum.

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=80761

[Billy Pilgrim]

I guess Worst is town. They’re posting a lot.

This is not a good way to read the foul. He played a newbie scumgame with me and he hyperposted and I think I only caught him when he claimed a pr and I was a mason.

Do you disagree with other people's TR's of Worst?

At this point I dont see a reason not to see him as town, and his past couple of posts have been solid, in particular his post about lavar. So no, I just wanted to point out that his activity isn't a great tell.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Also, Kraeg in this game is another good example when people townread him as a result of your towntell and he ended up flipping scum.

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=80761

God why'd you have to link one of my first newbie games, that's so embarrassing.

That wasn't a newbie.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Lynch nep ez game

Do you not agree with what I said about her in 1047?

LavarManos, this might sound weird. But i TR you because you scumread me.

It does sound weird.

Billy, are you still scumreading me?

I'm not townreading you. Where are your reads at the moment?

[Billy Pilgrim]

billy’s wagon was almost entirely a silent one, I feel that it would have gotten a lot more traction (with more vocal/fleshed out scumreads) if he were town, I was the only one even trying to convince people to join it. I don’t see good reason to think he’s town.

I dont understand this like at all. You think the wagons on town are better supported than the wagons on scum?

Whenever I've been caught as scum, people had reasons. I've also probably not roled scum as much as my average on site would be.

[Billy Pilgrim]

billy’s wagon was almost entirely a silent one, I feel that it would have gotten a lot more traction (with more vocal/fleshed out scumreads) if he were town, I was the only one even trying to convince people to join it. I don’t see good reason to think he’s town.

I dont understand this like at all. You think the wagons on town are better supported than the wagons on scum?

Whenever I've been caught as scum, people had reasons. I've also probably not roled scum as much as my average on site would be.

I think if scum saw town pushing a wagon on town, they would hop on that wagon (probably in an opportunistic way) and try to push it through, which hasn’t happened

What about foureyed who hopped on but then when the momentum died hopped off?

Like you think scum opportunistically hop on then park or do they do what foureyed did?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Saudade/lilith/lavar town
Tw maybe scum

What made you scumread lillith early and why is lavar a townread?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Hey Billy, i dont think youve given a stance on me yet. Nows the time

I just dig back through your iso. Your reads seem to have progression and they make sense. Im a bit curious about what you thought was scummy about lillith early on.

Also, you did a quick turnaround on Foureyed? Why? I mean that post where you voted him pinged me, but you and I disagree on that attitude being a scumtell vs. towntell, so why'd that jump out at you.

Saudade, can you talk to me about your read here? You seem to be pretty convinced, but I havent see much from you in terms of why.

[Billy Pilgrim]

billy’s wagon was almost entirely a silent one, I feel that it would have gotten a lot more traction (with more vocal/fleshed out scumreads) if he were town, I was the only one even trying to convince people to join it. I don’t see good reason to think he’s town.

I dont understand this like at all. You think the wagons on town are better supported than the wagons on scum?

Whenever I've been caught as scum, people had reasons. I've also probably not roled scum as much as my average on site would be.

I think if scum saw town pushing a wagon on town, they would hop on that wagon (probably in an opportunistic way) and try to push it through, which hasn’t happened

What about foureyed who hopped on but then when the momentum died hopped off?

Like you think scum opportunistically hop on then park or do they do what foureyed did?

ftr I have like a ~big brain guess~ about the gamestate that makes most if not all of four's play makes sense.

I feel like you're looking at this from the complete opposite perspective of me, like I'm thinking, "how would scum play around a town on town wagon vs a town on scum wagon?" and then comparing it to what happened. And you're looking at each individual's vote and working in the opposite direction, to like fit a narrative with four's play. I'm not sure if that's AI or I'm just being confbiased.

I mean the narrative that im making everyone's play fit is the one where I'm town. So that may be why. See you're looking at the wagon behavior to discern the targets alignment while i already know my own alignment. So im looking at the votes to discern their alignment.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I’m starting to feel that townhunting is much easier than scum hunting.

Its what I tend to do. Plus it has the added benefit i think of clearly exposing a deepwolf (though not necessarily who) when theres good cohesion but things keep going on.

[Billy Pilgrim]

these are all @ billy

tell me now

what do I get out of doing that?

better chance of me carrying you

I can carry myself just fine thanks

alright dont blame me if I just sort him by shooting him at night

are you claiming a shot?

Pretty transparent rolefish here. You worried?

I think it should be pretty clear why I was asking saudade the question I did. The shade from you here even though you're supposedly townreading me is really meh.

Like here’s Billy questioning Lavar about his vote and implying that Lavar’s vote was bad

VOTE: Something_Smart

There were multiple options, why this one?

And here’s Billy saying I’m scummy for thinking Lavar’s vote was bad

bad wagon is bad

VOTE: lavar

This pings me. Like a) why is the wagon bad; b)is this even the only wagon at this point? And if it isn't, why are the other wagons good?

I enjoy the fact that you're questioning both the wagon itself and me saying the wagon is bad

Its how I get into a game. You threw out a spicey take, so I engaged you on your take while I engaged with the wagon.

After I voted him, he changed his mind to say he was townreading me by saying he liked that I doubled down on my Lavar vote, but that contradicts him saying it was scummy for me to question Lavar’s vote originally (and I think is an attempt to get me to back off). Also note he calls it a “spicy take” the second time he talks about it (which is, again, after I voted him).

How could my saying Lavar’s vote was bad ping him while he simultaneously agreed with it? How does asking me whether this is the only wagon and whether the other wagons were good help him sort me? What is my answer to that (which is going to be factual regardless of alignment) going to say about me that is AI and that he couldn’t have read himself on the page he was reading?

I also just hugely dislike this fencesitty positioning of “oh I’m engaging with both you and the wagon” and somehow managing to scumread both sides of it

I think i now understand what's going on. I wasn't scumreading you or even him I think at the time I made that post. I dont think i got to scumreading him until the i am town response when he started feeling pressure. As for you, I dont think i ever scumread you. Yeah, the objective fact that there was more than one wagon doesn't help me sort you, but your response, that you called out the false dichotomy that I had set up did help me. Also the more sorting question of asking why the wagon was bad also helped. It let me know you are also looking for reasons and have an innate hesitation towards naked votes. But if you think my questions mean I'm scumreading people then I think I get why you hated this post so much.

1) the use of the word "ping" in regards to my post implies a scummy feeling
2) I don't think this post really explained what you were looking for that would be AI by asking me those initial questions. Wouldn't scum also dislike naked votes, because they can't defend them seriously without the vote being explained? Couldn't scum also call out false dichotomies (and would perhaps even be more motivated to point out flaws in your argument)?
3) Why did you pick this particular wagon to question, and not, say, saudade pushing IV or worst pushing saudade?

I guess Worst is town. They’re posting a lot.

This is not a good way to read the foul. He played a newbie scumgame with me and he hyperposted and I think I only caught him when he claimed a pr and I was a mason.

Do you disagree with other people's TR's of Worst?

At this point I dont see a reason not to see him as town, and his past couple of posts have been solid, in particular his post about lavar. So no, I just wanted to point out that his activity isn't a great tell.

can you explain what you liked about duck's post about lavar? Do you agree with it? Why did you like it?

billy’s wagon was almost entirely a silent one, I feel that it would have gotten a lot more traction (with more vocal/fleshed out scumreads) if he were town, I was the only one even trying to convince people to join it. I don’t see good reason to think he’s town.

I dont understand this like at all. You think the wagons on town are better supported than the wagons on scum?

Whenever I've been caught as scum, people had reasons. I've also probably not roled scum as much as my average on site would be.

btw as I've said, I already explained my scumread and it's independent of the wagon activity, I also happen to think that the wagon activity supports my read, but I wouldn't be using the wagon alone.

God i really hate you for this. I had to multitasking on my phone while I'm waiting for my kid to sleep. So thanks.

I dont understand the reason for asking him to claim whether he has a shot. Call me dumb but thats an obvious rolefish and a town vig is pretty powerful.


For the second part of your post:
1) Fair, I need to be careful with jargon. What I meant was that that jumped out at me. And partially because it hotshotted out of rvs. You asked later in this set of questions why I asked you about that wagon before others, its because I felt like it was the first non-random vote. Most of the first day I'm trying to get a sense of how players approach the game. I liked your post because it sounded like you were using a logic based read approach. I like that because its my natural playstyle. So you think I was looking busy with my questions and you voted me. And I get that I havent looked all that great this game because I havent really done much, its why I haven't really been all that engaged with the people scumreading me. If Saudade hadnt laid out that case id have been worried that his townread of me was because of too much information.

In your next section I think thats a weird point. Like player B explaining a tr of player A who I SR with solid logic and like genuineness, like why would that be confusing to you. If anything, this pings me more than anything else, because its like youre worried about being consistent. Like more worried about being perceived as consistent than figuring the game out. Like I can townread people that townread people I scumread. Why would the fact that I've got a different read of the target of one of their well explaijed reads matter? Like I found 1065 a post that I think scum would have difficulty faking. I think he's trying to figure out whether Lavar would approach a consensus townread that way in terms of pushing back on him on his choice of wagon. So does it make me lock Lavar town? No, but ive already thought that Four was of more interest for me to push and its making me reconsider Lavar, but he's not making it easy by not leaving a whole hell of alot of thoughts out, and i think a flip could potentially shed light on that.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I may have never enlisted into the army if I knew then what I know now

Did you too meet some Trafalmadorians?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Saudade, can you talk to me about your read here? You seem to be pretty convinced, but I havent see much from you in terms of why.

He has already been asked this question multiple times. Once again, I don't really think you care about the answer and you are just trying to look like a town.

Everything he's been asked hes pretty much refused to answer, so im asking him again particularly when he's asking for votes. Like God i wish i could ask for information without having that shit questioned. Like no one is townreading me outside of Saudade, so if i was asking questions for towncred and it was failing this miserably you think i would keep doing it?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I'm liking these recent posts from Billy.

This came before my thread dump so what exactly did you like? Was it the Nep discussion?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Not to dodge your question though i will repeat again, she exhibits unwillingness to cooperate, unlike lilith or tw or billy or even iv

What about Lavar and Foureyed? Whats your read on those two slots?

[Billy Pilgrim]

God i really hate you for this. I had to multitasking on my phone while I'm waiting for my kid to sleep. So thanks.

No one is forcing you to play mafia or answer immediately so this is kindve shitty to blame lilith for if youre serious

See i meant that to come off more lighthearted jokingly, but failed. Sorry if I offended you Lillith. I did hate multitabbing it though.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I dont understand the reason for asking him to claim whether he has a shot. Call me dumb but thats an obvious rolefish and a town vig is pretty powerful.

I was calling saudade's bluff on SS if I were rolefishing I would be less blatant about it...

In your next section I think thats a weird point. Like player B explaining a tr of player A who I SR with solid logic and like genuineness, like why would that be confusing to you. If anything, this pings me more than anything else, because its like youre worried about being consistent. Like more worried about being perceived as consistent than figuring the game out. Like I can townread people that townread people I scumread. Why would the fact that I've got a different read of the target of one of their well explaijed reads matter? Like I found 1065 a post that I think scum would have difficulty faking. I think he's trying to figure out whether Lavar would approach a consensus townread that way in terms of pushing back on him on his choice of wagon. So does it make me lock Lavar town? No, but ive already thought that Four was of more interest for me to push and its making me reconsider Lavar, but he's not making it easy by not leaving a whole hell of alot of thoughts out, and i think a flip could potentially shed light on that.

I'd think that someone who you think is town, who is using "solid logic," would also start to make you question your read on the person they are townreading.

Aren't you voting lavar currently?

I'm voting Foureyed. I had voted Lavar. And while I can see what TW is talking about, there's other angles. After some flips I'll probably revisit this.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Radio static

I can hear something coming from the holding cells. A strange gurgling, grunting sound. I'm going to check it out.
Is that... Oh my goodness! It's VOTE: something_smart! But they don't look themselves. They've got this pale skin and are moving jerkily like they're made of wood. And there's a strange growth coming from their head!
This much be what the brain parasites IV released do. Infect the brain and turn you into some sort of zombie. Is this what happened to the town? Is that why there's no one around? I hope I don't run into anyone infected outside this place, it could get dangerous. The duck doesn't seem to like the smart_zombie at all, he's hiding behind my leg.
We're just gonna let this guy stay in his cage for the time being and go to the shops. It's good to have and axe and cans of beans in a zombie apocalypse right?

Radio static

So we're still doing this then?
Well, at least you're posting something and laying down a vote.
Now I'm not sure whether I should be able to dissect the motivation behind that vote from this post (other than you apparently scumreading S_S's hair and movement?? )

We are not lynching Billy

+

Hes not even a 3rd choice candidate

Not necessarily a fan of this.
If scum!Saudade is able go this deep, this might be him using his "influence" to keep a buddy safe.

Where is Una gosh darnit.

Finland, some ~965km away from you. (if Trondheim is accurate)

I think if scum saw town pushing a wagon on town, they would hop on that wagon (probably in an opportunistic way) and try to push it through, which hasn’t happened

I think this a very one-dimensional way of looking at scumplay..?

The worst / Sausage obvtown.
Innocent Villager / Lilith / Lavarmanos / Zombie apocalypse town
Foureyed / Una null
Billy / Nepenthes / S_S PoE
Sirius trash

JOINK. Picking up another readslist for later analysis.

Feels like this game isnt gonna progress well w me unflipped and saudade tunneled
Norwees vote looks like the scum one though
VOTE: Norwee

Saudade might be deepwolfing while trying to discredit himself early but im not willing to jump down that rabbit hole 10 to 1 hes just town

This isn't your worst post so far.
I'd argue that town!Nep might suggest either scum!Norweg or something like scum!IV.
Based solely on where the focus has been shifting outside of Charmeleon.

Nobody.

ss why are you not participating in this game of mafia
if you cactch mafia lilith will notice u like the big senpai u are

+

im not a weebologist i could be wrong

While I'm laughing at this, I also think that we might need a weebologist from time to time these days.

I've been used : (

You were too emotionally available.

I just dig back through your iso. Your reads seem to have progression and they make sense. Im a bit curious about what you thought was scummy about lillith early on.

Also, you did a quick turnaround on Foureyed? Why? I mean that post where you voted him pinged me, but you and I disagree on that attitude being a scumtell vs. towntell, so why'd that jump out at you.

These are actually the type of questions we should be throwing around.
And furthermore, AT players like Nep who are currently being pushed. Instead of playing "50 questions Free-For-All" amongst all of us all the time at the same time.

I mean the narrative that im making everyone's play fit is the one where I'm town. So that may be why. See you're looking at the wagon behavior to discern the targets alignment while i already know my own alignment. So im looking at the votes to discern their alignment.

Weirdly enough, I'm sort of vibing with this.
When I started on this site my townplay was all about getting attention towards myself, and seeing who scumread me and for what reasons.
The problem with that tactic is that it creates so much irrelevant noise as well, and muddies some reads that need to be clear later.
So I'm nowadays more about trying to broaden my PoV and look at my own play without bias as well.

I'm liking these recent posts from Billy.

Tell me about it.
Based on the struggle I'm having with solid scumreads, there's got to be at least one good scumster in the mix.

@Una what do the bottom two comments mean?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I think this a very one-dimensional way of looking at scumplay..?

What do you think scum would be trying to do in this game?

I’m self-admittedly pretty bad at scumhunting so tips are always welcome.

Ok, this pings me. This is the first sense of humility I've seen from you wrt your reads. Like you were so locked onto me early on that you read the lack of movement on my wagon as scumindicative and youve been on me based on what I'm pretty sure is my playstyle. So if you don't think you're that good at scumhunting, why are you so confident on me?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Rereading the thread earlier this morning, Norweej does seem as if he could be trying to do more buddying than anything else. Perhaps on multiple people.

So Foureyed and Nep are probably scum together based on what i'm seeing here.

Based on what?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Reads on me billy and norwee would be helpful

I guess my top scumreads are currently wrestling a little with each other, but I can actually see them both being true at the same time as well.
It's between

you (Nep)

and

Liverpool (billy, right?)

I mean, it's still ~just~ D1, but I feel like I've had a good crash-course for those reads to mature while I've done my catchup.
In most of my best towngames I've been playing a lot of catchup, and somehow found my best reads while doing them.
It's obviously a different thing to push those lynches through, and rarely have I been 3/3 or even 2/3 with my initial reads, but I think it's even more rare for me to go 0/3.

Arguments can be made for either of you just having a difficult time explaining yourselves to the rest of the game, but I guess there's another PoV that I sort of "arrived at" during my catchup.

I RARELY HAVE THIS MANY TOWNREADS DURING D1

that I actually feel good about.
* I do not think

TW

has been pulling the wool over my eyes this game (if you have, kudos to you and FU from Finland with love, as well).
* I think

saudade

is almost absurdly obv.town this game.
* My read on

lilith

started on the lower side of null, and while I still think some of their lines of questioning have been a bit "overboard", I think I've managed to catch their playstyle, and understand the need for those questions a lot better as well. Meaning that it feels like a strong-ish read right now, because I feel like it has grown throughout these past 60+ pages instead of just being one sudden realization.

The slots I'm most 50/50 about - and not because they haven't done anything - are

Norweg

and

S_S

, I think.
Both for similar reasons as well.
I think the level and quantity of their content hasn't been consistent with what I was expecting from them, and I think they both have had their share of good interactions as well.
I'm not that familiar with Norweg so I'm relying a lot on just chasing logical chains, and currently I don't feel like there has been too much there (?) to push them too far on the either side of "really not sure".
S_S is feeling closer to a townlean than a scumlean, but it's based somewhat on TWs read on them (I trust their ability to sort the slot), and the fact that I really like their short, sharp observations.

Which actually leads me to my "problem group". (#problem_group, #policy_lynches_and_scummy_lurkers)

innoV, FourEyes, Sirius, Zombie-roleplayer, Charmeleon

^^all five of these slots are somewhere in the murky area to me right now, and I either have to try and salvage a read from them during D2, or just accept the fact that they are null until roped.
* IV is slightly on the townier and more active side (I guess?) based on their earlier content, but at the same time it could just be a nervous "noob!scum". Dunno.
* FourEyes would probably be a stronger read for me, but I only just realized at the end of my catchup that
A) they sort of disappeared from all of the interactions around the time most of my reads on others started to take shape
B) TW pointed out that they DID have a tone and theme to their posting as well, and it might've affected my read earlier. I need to work on this read, but it's probably going to be D2 for me.
* Sirius is the worst of this bunch, and needs rope today unless they are replaced or a magical resurgence happens immediately. Like overnight.
* Zombie-RP has a gimmick that they seem to be fairly committed to, and while I appreciate that in theory, I hate the fact that I'm unable to read them and actually understand them.
* Charmeleon started out very scummy to me, but after my catchup I find it difficult to scumread even their earlier posts. However, the way they have sort of "vanished" from the main-conversation afterwards makes me a little worried. It fits too well with a scumster "getting out of the spotlight" and then taking a breather on top of that.

Sorry if it looks messy, I tried to keep my thoughts organized while just writing my thoughts away.
Slight formatting and bolding added in the end for the people who can't find it within themselves to read everything.

Can you explain me as your top scumread particularly in light of the last post I quoted from you? Now maybe im misinterpreting that post when you agreed with S_S that you were liking me more, but between that and you seeming to understand where I was focused on people's interactions with my slot reminding you of your early townplay, im not seeing a progression from there to me as one of your top scumreads.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Isn’t it a bit incongruous that you resist sirius’ elimination so much even though his play

in this game

has been horrible, but you haven’t even seen notmafia in the game yet and you’re more than happy to policy elim him?

Why are you scumreading nepenthes again?

This is a really good post.

Let me piggyback though. Norweej, what was your Saudade read?

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: Nepenthes
Main scumreads right now are Nep and Foureyed.
S_S moves up my TR’s.

Uh... when did I drop out of your scumreads considering I hadn't posted since the last time you had announced me in your scumreads?

[Billy Pilgrim]

nvm ignore me, foureyes/zombie/una also not mentioned. I was hoping that would just be the solve lmao

This is my first game with N_M so im... excited? *shrugs*

[Billy Pilgrim]

Thats 4 votes on me

I have trouble with figuring out why you want to poof Sirius if you think Norwe is scum. Cuz I don't think Norwe/Sirius can both be scum right?

also your avatar is very scary - if you could change it to some kind of anime character with bright colors it will make me read you much more townie thanks.

Why can't they both be scum? Because of Norweej's hard defense of the Sirius slot?

[Billy Pilgrim]

i think he's starting to think you might be town and getting anxious about a deeper wolf.

Let me clarify, you read that the same way I did, that hes thinking I'm town and that someone else is the deeper wolf. Not that hes calling me the deepwolf?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I think this a very one-dimensional way of looking at scumplay..?

What do you think scum would be trying to do in this game?

I’m self-admittedly pretty bad at scumhunting so tips are always welcome.

Ok, this pings me. This is the first sense of humility I've seen from you wrt your reads. Like you were so locked onto me early on that you read the lack of movement on my wagon as scumindicative and youve been on me based on what I'm pretty sure is my playstyle. So if you don't think you're that good at scumhunting, why are you so confident on me?

sometimes I’m confident on things when I have no reason to be? like, idk, Dunning-Krueger?

This gave me a good chortle.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Since with a hard pr claim I'm not drawing the night lol with my heavy cringing, I'll just out myself.

Informed townie N_M, and previously Lavar, is town. That's my usefulness. Elim me to make N_M IC, I guess.

Ok this actually makes my biggest concern about you go away.

UNVOTE:

[Billy Pilgrim]

hnerejjehfjejfnnmrmmrmmmrmmmmmm
VOTE: nor

Hey ducky, you read una's post the same way that I did. Do you buy that his progression on me is real? Because shortly after that I dropped to one of his top two scumreads. Now Norweej also had some strange progressions wrt my slot so im comfortable voting there, but I'm a bit scared of una at the moment.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I feel pretty decently about duck/iv/pooky/nm/four/una/ss/nep town, leaving just: sirius, billy, norweej, zombie as my POE. I feel good about that tbh

Unless the team is literally sirius, norweej, and zombie, you shouldn't be.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Isn’t it a bit incongruous that you resist sirius’ elimination so much even though his play

in this game

has been horrible, but you haven’t even seen notmafia in the game yet and you’re more than happy to policy elim him?

Why are you scumreading nepenthes again?

This is a really good post.

Let me piggyback though. Norweej, what was your Saudade read?

this post gives me weird vibes

I screwed up. I'm actually interested in Norweej's lavar read. I messed up the replace ins.

[Billy Pilgrim]

gotcha, could you talk through what has like impressed you/disinterested you/whatever from una

Ducky I know my catchup got broken up but what about Una's progression on my slot. You seem to be pushing town!una hard and I had that early, but his flip on my slot didn't seem to be influenced by anything.

[Billy Pilgrim]

that and also cuz nepz says she doesnt think they r both scum

Why does that matter?

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: Una

I wanna know how I went from town to one of your top two scumreads without anything you felt a need to comment on. Its like my posts dropped out of your focus, but then I ended up as your top scumread with nep.

[Billy Pilgrim]

i think he's starting to think you might be town and getting anxious about a deeper wolf.

Let me clarify, you read that the same way I did, that hes thinking I'm town and that someone else is the deeper wolf. Not that hes calling me the deepwolf?

yeah that's how i read it

Then how do you make sense of his progression on me?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Anyone else find it strange that virtually everyone has the same elim pool? Its like me, zomb apoc, norweej and sirius. Nep was in there for a bunch of people but dropped out after the claim. Doesnt this pool feel too convenient? Like hell zomb apoc just literally put the three people as the other three people, norg is voting me. So either the team is within us four, or there's at least one deep wolf in the townreads if not more.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Una what do the bottom two comments mean?

It felt like you were able to make towny-looking posts, and I came to realize that no matter which of you is scum, there's probably at least one here who's capable of fooling me/us/all of us.
So those two quotes are in reference, not only to you, but towards pretty much everyone on my null->scum range who have been able to have these good moments.

i think he's starting to think you might be town and getting anxious about a deeper wolf.

..or you could just say it simply like this.

Ok, do you have any reason to think I'm capable of being a deeper wolf?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Can you explain me as your top scumread particularly in light of the last post I quoted from you? Now maybe im misinterpreting that post when you agreed with S_S that you were liking me more, but between that and you seeming to understand where I was focused on people's interactions with my slot reminding you of your early townplay, im not seeing a progression from there to me as one of your top scumreads.

I honestly need to return to this at a later time, but most of my scumlean towards you was formed over a longer period of time.
It didn't feel like you were an easy target to push per se, but there were still multiple people scumreading some of your content.
And the way you formatted your posts and (possibly) censored your words gave me a feeling that you were purposefully trying to avoid AI-statements and hard stances.

I'll honestly need to use your ISO and even return to that back-and-forth between you and S_S to give you the answer that you deserve.
But I'm just not going to find the time and energy this game day.
Sorry.
All I can say is that I'm not going to vote for you D1 - unless I find the time and energy to do that ISO-return before that.

If you feel like im the type of player that censors my posts do I also quick vote before you answered my questions? Because that doesn't come from the same playstyle like ever.

And youre using these seemingly conflicting styles as both reasons that im scum when i dont get how that makes sense. Im either cautious scum, or I just voted you because I was building to it and didn't care that I left questions out without answers. That doesn't seem like it can come from the same scum mentality.

I voted you because I really wanted confirmation from someone else that I wasn't reading more into your words than was reasonable. If your argument for me being scum now is that im deepwolfing then I dont know how to respond because I so often get scumread early based on my playstyle (that hedging and fencesitting is probably a professional hazard btw im a lawyer so im literally forced to look at things from like 8000 angles) that there's no way I would go into a scumgame thinking that im gonna survive to the end as a townread. There's no way im surviving a LYLO as scum. So if you genuinely thought I was deepwolfing then I think thats the only way you have a progression on me that makes sense. So is that what it was?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Are you not?

I dont think i am.

[Billy Pilgrim]

TW is billy just scum here?

Look, you wanna run me up do it. Don't ask permission from the duck.

[Billy Pilgrim]

TW is billy just scum here?

I'm not just scum, in fact I'm not scum at all. I'm in over my head probably since I have little to no experience with most of this playerlist and this is my fourth game back to the site after like a 9 month hiatus (or what felt like 9 months). Honestly I dont know how much help I'm gonna be because until we get flips I look for logical progressions and that doesn't work all that great on D1 and it works even worse against players that play mostly by gut. So I dont know. I feel like Una is hiding a bit in response to those questions and rather than voting me when he thought i was "building a case" stayed on Sirius and just shaded me. Now maybe thats town that just really doesn't want the sirius slot around in LYLO (I get that) but maybe its also scum that can set me up for a mis-elim after whatever Sirius happens to flip. After all, if Sirius was a scum slot he could have been building town cred (though it looks like S_S and ducky were onto that so I dont know how successful its gonna be) but even if it flips town, he doesnt lose any town cred.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I don't think Norwegian is scum here, he has been Townie tbh?
@mod what is ur definition of a substantive post?

Like, you're not a jester, since its a normal, so what are you doing here? This doesnt help any win con the way your playing.

[Billy Pilgrim]

do you have actual reasons for scumreading billy beyond that one time that you voted him for asking why you were defending him?

Whats your read on my slot at the moment lillith?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I guess this will be a good lesson for you on how to avoid applying your theory incorrectly then.

See this reminds me of one of Norweej's first games where I kept scumreading this defiant attitude as scum but he ended up flipping town. I dont know if thats outdated by now and from what I've heard its firmly within his scumrange, but this does remind me of town!Norweej.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Billy Pilgrim or Nepenthes.
I don't trust Nep's vague PR claim.
Either way, unless Nep can mechanically prove his role at a later day assuming he lives that long, he should be lynched imo.

you aren't going to get a nep-poof just on his PR claim alone - thats gonna be a later day issue

you should build a strong case for billy before the inertia get you gone

I dont get this. Youre not voting me, but you're asking someone else to case me? Do you think im scum? Or were you just not a fan of the call for a nep elim?

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: Pooky

I know this is a stretch but bear with me. Saudade was posting good, like real good, and way outside their normal style. But what if they saw this Playlist and decided to actually play? And yeah, that's not a case, but i feel like Pooky had a high shade ratio in their posts and they aren't backing it up with votes. Hell he literally told someone else to case me while he wasn't voting me. That feels scummy.

Also, given that the consensus poe is pretty tight and it has me in it and I know im town, one of these consensus townreads has to be wrong and at the minute my money is on the bear.

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: Pooky

I know this is a stretch but bear with me. Saudade was posting good, like real good, and way outside their normal style. But what if they saw this Playlist and decided to actually play? And yeah, that's not a case, but i feel like Pooky had a high shade ratio in their posts and they aren't backing it up with votes. Hell he literally told someone else to case me while he wasn't voting me. That feels scummy.

Also, given that the consensus poe is pretty tight and it has me in it and I know im town, one of these consensus townreads has to be wrong and at the minute my money is on the bear.

now THAT'S a hot take xD

Yeah its like about a 7 on my food scale. What do you think about it?

[Billy Pilgrim]

like okay if I was in the PoE I doubt my first reaction is to go "OMG town got it wrong, ahhh deepwolfs, we should push there instead" town's probably just right on like 2/3 in the pool

pedit: lilith i mean the scumteam most likely isn't completely in those 4 just from sheer probability (maybe it is that would be sick)? but add in like una and worsty and now I'd be really surprised if the game's still going

Yeah, but im also like weakly townreading Norwej and to me the concerns with zombie and water basically amount to them being low content. I dont know that the stance of hitting scum in zombie/water is any better than random and i dont know why i dont see Norwej as a likely target, but i dont. This is making me rethink it a bit. But im gonna be a distraction for a bit, and we've already run up two claims so its better to not risk it somewhere else. Im good being the elim today, but before that happens, I wanna go back and look at the folks who were voting me/positioning themselves to vote me.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I mean, i’d vote Billy over me.
But if he flips town i’m probably going to need a good and long trip to the mental hospital for rehabilitation.

Book it now.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Im good being the elim today, but before that happens, I wanna go back and look at the folks who were voting me/positioning themselves to vote me.

You accept your lynch? How would that help town in the long run if you flip town?

Because we've already run up two claims. I'm basically up to E-1 and I dont know how much help Im gonna be late game in this playlist. And I waited until a point in time where enough people were on me that we could hold them accountable. I didn't say this when there was like 1 vote on me.

Like seriously, what is with your question? There's 10 town in this game we get three mis-elims before ELO and youre the CW here and i dont think youre scum? My thinking was that yes you're a better chance of scum than me, but there's also a better chance that you're a tpr than me. And on balance I thought the risk of running up another pr with a claim that would mean whoever survived couldnt self-resolve was worse than me being mis-elimed with enough information for wagon analysis later.

Though honestly, this is making me wonder whether this is a perspective slip. You were scumreading me to the point that you were ready to check into a mental hospital if you were wrong than your first reaction to me accepting my elim is to ask how that helps town? Like I think you just may have tmi spewed my alignment.

VOTE: Norweej

[Billy Pilgrim]

I really hope I was wrong about this being a tvt wagon situation.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Ok...
VOTE: Billy Pilgrim
If you insist on making the vote me then i guess i’ll vote you back.
This seemed like a really sudden and weird heel-face turn. You say you lightly TR me and then bring up some shit about me asking you why you’re fine with being eliminated and vote me...?

Wait, you weren't already voting me? Why weren't you voting me? You had said you were convinced I was scum.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Wait, who the hell was 2663 about? Did I end up getting confused by your choice of pronoun?

[Billy Pilgrim]

UNVOTE:

Yeah, back to me being the elim today. And I already explained why it helps.

[Billy Pilgrim]

My bad Norweej. I think I'm only like half paying attention while I'm reading things and its making me not play like normal.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Wait, Billy notices this and they have a short interaction about it?
But they talk it away by walking right past the point?
Are they both just scum and Norwee slipped there??

That post came right after him doubling down on his nepenthes vote. Now I know Nepenthes uses female pronouns, so what looked like the obvious antecedent (the previous post where he doubles down on his nepenthes vote didn't have matching pronouns. Then I realized that Norweej has misgendered Nepenthes consistently though this game and based on his response to my vote and rereading those two posts, I realized that I probably made the mistake just on the basis of the pronoun.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I mean, i’d vote Billy over me.

But if he flips town

i’m probably going to need a good and long trip to the mental hospital for rehabilitation.

Such a Freudian slip..

?? how is this is a slip am I just dumb

Well, tbf, at this point I was more or less joking.
But the way I read that post, Norweg is saying that

"he would vote Billy over himself"

-> with the tone of

"as the last option other than me"

-> Norweg thinks Billy is town.
He then says, and notice here, starts with a

BUT

"if he flips town i’m probably going to need a good and long trip to the mental hospital for rehabilitation"

.
Meaning that those two sentences are connected, and together they make no sense.
I might've let it pass, but the their mutual reaction to that mistake just seems fake to me.
To me it's obvious that Norweg is only talking about Billy in that post.

Now, I normally hate it when people jump up every time there's even a sliver of a chance someone made a "slip".
Scumslip, townslip, whatever.
But this here seems more like the kind of slip that actually happens for scum - especially if they are both scum.
Norweg is tunneling very hard on the point that "Billy is so obv.town to me", but while writing this post their actual knowledge of Billys alignment pushes through for a moment, and they write "town" instead of "scum".
Because they are both scum, but they are trying very hard to force the narrative of town!Billy.

See i understand how literally everyone else would see it that way, but this interpretation only works if we're scum together, and I'm not scum, so if hes making that comment about me its just a stone cold lie, which is why i may be more apt to believe that he was talking about Nep.

Also, I read the "but" from his post as a sort of change. So he was voting Nep, then said he would vote me over himself but that he'd be in a mental institution if "he flipped town." This reasoning doesn't make a lick of sense as to why he wouldn't vote me which is why i reacted so strongly. It does however make alot of sense if hes got nepenthes as locked scum. He'd be very hesitant to move the vote.

So I apready said im the elim today. And then everyone will see why this alleged slip doesn't work, because when I flip town, his alleged slip isn't a slip.

[Billy Pilgrim]

UNVOTE:

Yeah, back to me being the elim today. And I already explained why it helps.

His acceptance of being exiled like this + the reasoning he gave in earlier posts scream town. I've seen behaviour like this from town!Billy before, although that was long, long ago.

Who are you?

[Billy Pilgrim]

2663 seems like he’s referring to billy when he says “if this flips town”

I dont think it does anymore. There's a real behavior/speaking mismatch if he does. Like if he was so sure I would flip scum he'd vote me right? He'll even if scum hed want his outward confidence to match his behavior. It would actually explain why he is hesitant to move his vote off of Nepenthes if he has her locked as scum in his mind.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Look i'm the elim today. I dont wanna see someone else get voted and we risk another pr claim in D1. Particularly over a weekend where people aren't gonna be paying attention and we've already got V/LAs. If you think im scummy you're on me. Im gonna look back over the votes of me and iso dive them later tonight.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Don't be silly, Billy. You have a power role as well because you know your slot is 100% guaranteed to be town. Innocent Child is a strong role! So, don't be a dumb dumb and let yourself (conftown) be exiled over someone who could be scum (NorwegianboyEE)

This only works if everyone is on board and they're not. I got too many people scumreading me so if I dont turn into an IC I'm better to eat the elim. Also, you didn't answer about your main. You made an argument from meta so id like to know who you are.

[Billy Pilgrim]

UNVOTE:

Yeah, back to me being the elim today. And I already explained why it helps.

His acceptance of being exiled like this + the reasoning he gave in earlier posts scream town. I've seen behaviour like this from town!Billy before, although that was long, long ago.

acceptance can just be scum wifiom. I'm also not liking your entrance this game, sausage was obvtown, you're marring his efforts.

Wait. Didn't Pookie replace Sausage? I thought water replaced Sirius.

[Billy Pilgrim]

again I disagree with your assessment of Sirius slot and your BP backoff, my bets are on those two both being scum in the PoE still despite the small towntell from water

Like it literally could just be BP water Zombie and I think everything makes sense

pedit: I could go for a Zombie elim if you like too.

Why are you looking somewhere else for an elim? Like you can't do this dancing around my slot if youre not going to flip me. I'm making it clear that running up another slot is a bad idea and youre offering up yet another wagon while not TRing me.

Also, I never said I was tring water or zombie. Water tred me. Zombie had me in his poe pool. I dont really have any read of zombie or water due to lack of content.

This positioning around me is really confusing to me. I told you I'm the safe elim. Youre still scumreading me and yet youre trying to run someone else up?

After i flip, I think IV is worth looking into.

[Billy Pilgrim]

yeah but like I also don’t expect to solve the game on D1 and to have my PoE down to exactly the size of the scumteam is like probably too much?

i think I’m just going to close my eyes and vote in there and reevaluate d2, this game feels like it 180’d in terms of activity so maybe it just needs something to happen for us to really start going for the solve

VOTE: Zombie apocalypse

Its me. If you're voting inside your 3 person poe you vote me. Like seriously what is the point of trying to run someone else up? Are you just transparently looking for another claim?

[Billy Pilgrim]

again I disagree with your assessment of Sirius slot and your BP backoff, my bets are on those two both being scum in the PoE still despite the small towntell from water

Like it literally could just be BP water Zombie and I think everything makes sense

pedit: I could go for a Zombie elim if you like too.

Why are you looking somewhere else for an elim? Like you can't do this dancing around my slot if youre not going to flip me. I'm making it clear that running up another slot is a bad idea and youre offering up yet another wagon while not TRing me.

Also, I never said I was tring water or zombie. Water tred me. Zombie had me in his poe pool. I dont really have any read of zombie or water due to lack of content.

This positioning around me is really confusing to me. I told you I'm the safe elim. Youre still scumreading me and yet youre trying to run someone else up?

After i flip, I think IV is worth looking into.

I'm doubling down on this now. IV just sorta quietly moved his vote off of my while still scumreading me to start a vanity wagon on zombie after I basically hardclaimed vt.

@IV - explain this to me. Im still scum to you. I say I'm the safe elim so no pr will get outted. You maintain that im scum but start voting someone else. Please tell me why.

Either im the kill today or im an IC. There's no in between. So im making it clear that I think IV needs pressure, but thats after I flip.

[Billy Pilgrim]

i don't like how bp scum read una for scum reading him because it wasn't emotional at all. I can't remember who said it but someone said bp "wanted a a reason" so vote una.
I fully get thinking (or wanting to think) people are scummy for thinking you are scum, i have done that many times when i was on an accidental quest to be the most lynchable d1 candidate, but bp's tone isn't that at all.

This feels like a developed tonal read. Im fine with this vote, and I also like him maintaining it after I accepted the kill.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I like Pookie's vote on me too. Felt like he had been suspecting me for a while then came around on Norj his top scumread then moved to me when he came off of Norj.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I'm gonna be a bit concerned if Lillith doesn't start voting me given how strong that SR was of me.

[Billy Pilgrim]

2663 seems like he’s referring to billy when he says “if this flips town”

I dont think it does anymore. There's a real behavior/speaking mismatch if he does. Like if he was so sure I would flip scum he'd vote me right? He'll even if scum hed want his outward confidence to match his behavior. It would actually explain why he is hesitant to move his vote off of Nepenthes if he has her locked as scum in his mind.

he clarified that he was talking about Billy, sooooooooo yeah, it doesn't make sense at all

No he didn't. He clarified that he was talking about nepenthes. Its just that you and Una believed it was referring to me, and una doubling down on it when the statement and behavior don't make sense. In fact the statement barely makes sense.

[Billy Pilgrim]

billy idk what you are on about with the whole you “being the elim” or whatever? I’m fine with anyone inside my PoE and Zombie has essentially gotten no real scrutiny all day for doing nothing really

I hardclaimed that im not a pr while I was being run up. Theres a bunch of discussion about that a few pages back. How im going to eat the elim to show that the narrow poe is wrong, so we can start interrogating those townreads, because i don't khow how useful I'll be there since I'm elim bait and I know im not a pr, and we already had two claims, so i don't want to risk another from the pool.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I haven’t said i’m sure you’re scum. I said i would vote you over myself if me/you were the only choice.

Here's the post. This in conjunction with the previous post makes it clear that hes referring to Nepenthes (who he was voting at the time).

[Billy Pilgrim]

2663 seems like he’s referring to billy when he says “if this flips town”

I dont think it does anymore. There's a real behavior/speaking mismatch if he does. Like if he was so sure I would flip scum he'd vote me right? He'll even if scum hed want his outward confidence to match his behavior. It would actually explain why he is hesitant to move his vote off of Nepenthes if he has her locked as scum in his mind.

he clarified that he was talking about Billy, sooooooooo yeah, it doesn't make sense at all

No he didn't. He clarified that he was talking about nepenthes. Its just that you and Una believed it was referring to me, and una doubling down on it when the statement and behavior don't make sense. In fact the statement barely makes sense.

???? he literally said it's about you:

Yes i’m talking about Billy. Because i’m fucking explaining that if Billy is town then there are deepwolves in this game. But i already knew that.
Why are you blowing this minor issue way out of proportion Una?

He said he was talking about me. He didn't say the pronoun was me which is actually the relevant part here. And the statement literally used my name in explaining that he would vote me over himself. So he was talking about me but the pronoun thing is what matters and this didn't clarify it the way you think it did.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Ducky when did I become town for you? Because I was in your scuk pool early?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Folks if there are people that don't have me solidly in their townblock then I'm the elim. Sorry to cast off a read you feel positive about but ive got IV not sold, FED who still has me outside his townblock and Lillith seemed to suspect me pretty hard. Now I still have Lillith as a townread, but with FED pushing me, thats the logical play here. If you're not townreading me I should be the push. Let's not give scum a narrower window for the nk to hit a pr.

[Billy Pilgrim]

i can definitely switch to water if people would rather get that slot, im still kind of whatever between BP and water

If youre undecided on me, you're on me. We're not dealing with me later. I already claimed no pr. I die today or im an IC. Not giving scum an easoer target.

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: Innocent Villager

I've got weird feels around this. I could easily be wrong because after I drew that much attention to myself I dont know that scum would continue to waffle on me, but I also feel like you've got a guy you're scumreading and he said he's not a pr, so why would you have been trying to kill a different slot right there if you still think that slot is scum. Like you cant hit a pr there, so why would you risk hitting a tpr if you do a different mis-elim. IV is my primary target tomorrow and I am feeling uncomfortable with Lillith as well.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Now you can flip me.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Well at least norwee didn't claim a pr. And he wasn't gonna eat the nk either unless the scum team had a real strong pr read there. Sorry Norweej, I was townreading you.

Hopefully I will be more useful tomorrow.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I'm a rolestopper, and targeted Nep last night.
So there's that.
I have modifiers that I'm not going to out yet so that scum can't abuse it, but I've said enough for reasonable people to see where I'm coming from.

The only way Nep could've been roleblocked, is if I was roleblocked first, and then they were roleblocked separately.
So nope.

This is like really strong reasoning and literally the only way that Una could know Nep wasn't roleblocked.

Are we entitled to know the order of operations as far as resolving conflicts in roles mod? Because if so id like to kmow it. E.g. it seems hard for me to believe that roleblock would ever resolve before rolestop or else it weakens the rolestop and if that is true, then we know Nep is lying because Una can't be blocked at that point.

And if rolestop resolved before roleblock then there has to be at least 1 scum in Nep/Una. I mean its already pretty unlikely that there's 0 given that ut means either a jailkeep situation or 2 scum roleblockers.

[Billy Pilgrim]

No, vote Nepenthes, she is lying about her result.

if u have a guilty get ur ass out here

idc if we need to outright fucking massclaim d2 to get a guilty
i'll take the guilty

He explained it already. Why did you vote outside it? Do you catchup like me because it was like posts before this?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Una Rolestop also functions as a doctor
Why didnt you use it for that

Wait, how do you know it functions like a doctor, the wiki isn't clear on that and says its possible that it does but not necessary.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I personally thought this post was a masterpiece but it seems to have gone over everyone's heads

Radio static

I was right, the duckling had wondered into the library. We're now heading to the

police station

in hopes of answers. The duck is sitting on my shoulder, it didn't wan to go in my pocket, as it's too slow at walking.

Radio static

Some time later

Radio static

We've arrived at the station and it's a rather strange sight. It appears an

ice cream truck

has crashed into it breaking the doors open. How helpful. Unfortunately it seems like the music is stuck playing, this could get annoying.

The records room! Just what I was looking for. This looks like an interesting file.

Radio static

The pondering of

Commander Mendeleev

on people of note

Lieutenant Lilith

Been on the force for almost 5 years. Has a good work/play balance while on duty that the officers respect. Could be up for promotion soon. A good egg. Has trouble with trains.
It would be good to find out their views on IV.

TheFourEyedDude

Been in for questioning multiple times. Hard to break. Does say very relatable things like:

It's times like these I regret not being on my main as the joke I want to make is out of character for me.

Sirius9121

Insufficient data

Innocentvillager

A rambunctious fellow. Thought to have broken into the science facility and released parasites into the water stream. From my past experience with them, this sort of energy of breaking into a high security facility and breaking things is in character but it is unknown if this act was intentional or not. IV is considered suspicious and hostile for the time being.

Billy “The Slaughterer” Pilgrim

Most popular butcher in town. A retrospective man who doesn’t give much away.

UnaBombaH

Budding trainee to the force. It will be good to see what they bring to the table.

NorwegianboyEE

In the past when a crime is committed I bring norwee into custody for questioning. I just find them very shifty. Recently, however, it seems he is more on the straight and narrow. There could be a bright future for this one.

Constable Nepenthes

A similar soul to my own. The way she goes about her job is, in my eyes, reminiscent of my own style. Others may find it unorthodox, but it worked for me and it’ll work for her. Fine example of the force.

Scientist Sausage

Has been uncharacteristically helpful as of late. I’m used to not getting along with Sausage but I’m agreeing more and more with what he says. I like this change of character.

Something_Smart

Can’t help but enjoy playing poker with this guy. I wonder if they got my note asking about Larvar.

LavarManos

Not the most helpful officer.

the worst

The mascot of the station. Everyone loves his fluffy feathers and enjoyable quacking.

El

Highly elusive. Wanted for questioning regarding the monthly fireworks displays on

the 2nd and 3rd of each month

.

So is this some sort of cop claim? What does the ice cream mean? And gated to n2 and n3?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I personally thought this post was a masterpiece but it seems to have gone over everyone's heads

Radio static

I was right, the duckling had wondered into the library. We're now heading to the

police station

in hopes of answers. The duck is sitting on my shoulder, it didn't wan to go in my pocket, as it's too slow at walking.

Radio static

Some time later

Radio static

We've arrived at the station and it's a rather strange sight. It appears an

ice cream truck

has crashed into it breaking the doors open. How helpful. Unfortunately it seems like the music is stuck playing, this could get annoying.

The records room! Just what I was looking for. This looks like an interesting file.

Radio static

The pondering of

Commander Mendeleev

on people of note

Lieutenant Lilith

Been on the force for almost 5 years. Has a good work/play balance while on duty that the officers respect. Could be up for promotion soon. A good egg. Has trouble with trains.
It would be good to find out their views on IV.

TheFourEyedDude

Been in for questioning multiple times. Hard to break. Does say very relatable things like:

It's times like these I regret not being on my main as the joke I want to make is out of character for me.

Sirius9121

Insufficient data

Innocentvillager

A rambunctious fellow. Thought to have broken into the science facility and released parasites into the water stream. From my past experience with them, this sort of energy of breaking into a high security facility and breaking things is in character but it is unknown if this act was intentional or not. IV is considered suspicious and hostile for the time being.

Billy “The Slaughterer” Pilgrim

Most popular butcher in town. A retrospective man who doesn’t give much away.

UnaBombaH

Budding trainee to the force. It will be good to see what they bring to the table.

NorwegianboyEE

In the past when a crime is committed I bring norwee into custody for questioning. I just find them very shifty. Recently, however, it seems he is more on the straight and narrow. There could be a bright future for this one.

Constable Nepenthes

A similar soul to my own. The way she goes about her job is, in my eyes, reminiscent of my own style. Others may find it unorthodox, but it worked for me and it’ll work for her. Fine example of the force.

Scientist Sausage

Has been uncharacteristically helpful as of late. I’m used to not getting along with Sausage but I’m agreeing more and more with what he says. I like this change of character.

Something_Smart

Can’t help but enjoy playing poker with this guy. I wonder if they got my note asking about Larvar.

LavarManos

Not the most helpful officer.

the worst

The mascot of the station. Everyone loves his fluffy feathers and enjoyable quacking.

El

Highly elusive. Wanted for questioning regarding the monthly fireworks displays on

the 2nd and 3rd of each month

.

So is this some sort of cop claim? What does the ice cream mean? And gated to n2 and n3?

[Billy Pilgrim]

So there can only be town!Una and town!Nep in a scenario where both were roleblocked and the roleblock resolves before a rolestop. I didn't get a good answer from NAR on the order of this specific conflict. I feel like im falling into the trap of townreading Nep's resignation too a bit, but i wanna make sure I've got all the possibilities before I worry about probabilities. My last game had a perfect fakeclaim from scum which almost got them the win, so i want to be clear on what could be happening here.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Una you saif you had modifiers, is one of them ascetic? Don't claim anything else but that would explain a no result if she targeted you.

[Billy Pilgrim]

You know I thought abt fakeclaiming that Id tracked Una to the kill just to see what yall would do but I didnt want to make another PR claim for a stupid reason
Lol

But... like why would town!Nep have this thought much less make this post...

Eff it

VOTE: Nep

[Billy Pilgrim]

That's E-2.

Anyone have meta on S_S's thoughts on D1 policy elims?

[Billy Pilgrim]

UNVOTE: the shenanigans around the re-resolving the night actions are enough for this. Im tired and need to sleep.

[Billy Pilgrim]

My only idea why zombie would claim neapolitan is to attract maf attention by faking q pr claim in hopes to die n1 or to attract maf attention and be protected

He did it at the beginning of D2. The crumb was on D1 though.

So a D1 crumb that he pointed to on D2 while under pressure but not even at E-1 and then the replacement like immediately walks back the claim and claims vt. I feel like this slot is just scum. Sorry Plus, just a tough spot to replace into.

I wanna check the vote count so the day doesn't end yet, but like I'm voting here.

[Billy Pilgrim]

ngl i'm starting to forget why i was townreading iv as well lol

Oooooh i will definitely join you here. His insistence on keeping me in the scum pool without eliminating me yesterday really pinged me hard. And then hes back to putting together that convenient 3 person pool, even after one of his 4 (which for some reason wasn't me) flipped town.

I dont see town motivation in Zomb's crumb +fakeclaim under pressure, so thats my top suspect. But IV can definitely be 2.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I mean the recalibration of Nep's claim is convenient. Particularly if Una had the email before the pause that NAR was used. But im not in Osuka's mind so maybe Nep did get a result.

So claim wise we have FED as informed, Nep tracker, Una rolestopper, flipped Pookie as rolecop.

Then we've got Zombie claiming gated neapolitan which plus retracted and claimed vt and i claimed vt yesterday. So that leaves like 5 slots left (S_S, duck, forpy, lillith, and N_M).

I want to reiterate my request for S_S meta on D1 policy elims. Also S_S was was 1607 referencing. When had you said that about Lillith? Lillith, you can answer too.

[Billy Pilgrim]

want to reiterate my request for S_S meta on D1 policy elims.

Can you explain what you’re looking for? I don’t know what this means

I'm looking for whether he is consistent wrt policy eliminations on D1. Does he always oppose them like he did in this game?

[Billy Pilgrim]

@billy if you think plus is scum, do you think SS came out of the gate bussing a partner like that?

I've got no experience with scum!S_S. Do I think its strange? Yes. Could be be a 2000iq scum play with the poe as wrong as it is and the need to get deepwolf play out? Yes it could. Do I know which one it is yet? No.

[Billy Pilgrim]

My stance on policy executions is kinda confused. I'm against them in principle, because they obviate the need to actually form reads, but I will often support them in practice if they get traction because my D1 philosophy is to execute someone I don't townread, and I probably won't be townreading someone if they are policy-worthy.

So why didn't you join the sirius wagon? You weren't tring him, and it had traction at one point.

[Billy Pilgrim]

We know that there is an RB from the issues before, and we also now know that there's a rolestopper and possibly a tracker, though the results could have been faked with the way the day played out. I just think this is a play to get that slot into the night 2, specifically.

do we know there's an rb?

Slip?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Lilith where's your brain river flowing
I feel like you're throwing a lot of questions and cursory observations out but I really don't have a good sense of why you're throwing these out / what the responses and answers are like..doing for your solve

trying to figure out whether you’re scum

I think im pocketed at this point. Im willing to trust that the duck is town. If hes scum then eff me if we get to ELO.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I can see an attempt at town motivation in the fakeclaim. it makes sense to try and draw scum attention in this setup. nightkills on a vt are cool, roleblocks on a vt are cool. I'm pretty null about the neap claim outside of thinking it was SILLY.

Okay, so why did he make a claim that would require him to invent a result before he even had a chance to get NK'd...?

He didn't. He gated it to n2. Amd he drew attention to it with minimal pressure on d2. So I think he actually did what youre saying he didn't.

I think the more interesting piece here is ducky saying that it makes sense to try and draw scum attention in this setup when a vt would be someone with literally no information about this setup.

[Billy Pilgrim]

He didn't. He gated it to n2. Amd he drew attention to it with minimal pressure on d2. So I think he actually did what youre saying he didn't.

sorry, are you saying that the neapolitan claim is +town or +scum?

I'm not saying that the claim in isolation is either +town or +scum. Im talking about the circumstances both of ducky's comments on it and S_S's. Like S_S was scumreading the fakeclaim because he would have to fake a result before eating the nk, but thats not the case. He crumbed D1 for any perceptive eyes that were searching then when he didn't eat the nk he brought it up under pretty minimal pressure and said it was gated to n2 and n3. In other words, he wouldn't have had to fake a result. Either scum kills him and flips him or wastes a roleblock. Or if they don't he comes clean on D3.

So maybe im coming around to think that the claim itself is plus town. My main concern here is ducky's comment though. Hes saying that it makes sense to draw scum's attention in this setup. But like if its a fakeclaim, which ducky seems to be saying, Zombie wouldn't have known the setup. So that comment doesn't make any sense. In fact it only makes sense if ducky knows the setup, because even with these claims, I dont know the setup. I know whats been claimed and thats it. So I think long story short, I may be scumreading ducky.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I mean the recalibration of Nep's claim is convenient. Particularly if Una had the email before the pause that NAR was used. But im not in Osuka's mind so maybe Nep did get a result.

So claim wise we have FED as informed, Nep tracker, Una rolestopper, flipped Pookie as rolecop.

Then we've got Zombie claiming gated neapolitan which plus retracted and claimed vt and i claimed vt yesterday. So that leaves like 5 slots left (S_S, duck, forpy, lillith, and N_M).

I want to reiterate my request for S_S meta on D1 policy elims. Also S_S was was 1607 referencing. When had you said that about Lillith? Lillith, you can answer too.

leaves 5 slots left for what? No one is confirmed town just for claiming a PR

@billy can you answer this too

5 unclaimed slots. I know claimed pr doesn't mean town. Look, I claimed vt. Vts can't do any real setup spec until massclaim. We don't have any knowledge of what's going on.

[Billy Pilgrim]

pretty minimal pressure

are we reading the same game?

Dude, it was you and ducky that were on him at the time he revealed the crumb. I dont think i remembered that wrong. He wasn't anywhere near ELO.

[Billy Pilgrim]

pretty minimal pressure

are we reading the same game?

Dude, it was you and ducky that were on him at the time he revealed the crumb. I dont think i remembered that wrong. He wasn't anywhere near ELO.

E-1 sorry.

[Billy Pilgrim]

SS's point is that we have rolestopper!una who we can direct to rolestop a neapolitan claim and protect them for another night, forcing a result. una outed his rolestopper role before zombie's claim, so vt!zombie would have known that una could have rolestopped zombie to get a result. at what point was zombie intending to reveal that the claim was fake? after we wasted the rolestop on him?

I literally didn't even mentally process this. No, now i get S_S's point and I like always am an idiot.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Billy seems a little defensive here and I don't understand why

What seems defensive?

[Billy Pilgrim]

idk a lot of people were saying that billy townspewed D1 but I didn't really see where that happened

You are remarkably consistent.

[Billy Pilgrim]

idk a lot of people were saying that billy townspewed D1 but I didn't really see where that happened

You are remarkably consistent.

I hadn't seen anything before and no one ever responded to me to point out where this happened, so not sure why you'd expect me to change my view?

It was when I was volunteering to be the D1 kill. Maybe it happened when you were packing.

[Billy Pilgrim]

uhhhhhhhhhhhh

not sure about the pocketing stuff but I agree it's weird that billy is now scumreading duck after I announce I'm scumreading duck???

Did my thougjt process about his comment on needing to attract scum attention in this setup about a vt fakeclaiming neqpolitan not make sense? By the way, i don't even have a clue why you're scumreading ducky. I just think his comments don't make sense re zombies fakeclaim being townie.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Billy seems a little defensive here and I don't understand why

What seems defensive?

referring to being heavy pocketed by worst mainly after it seemed to me like he was pocketing me.

I meant that I was in his pocket. Except shortly after that i flipped.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I don’t understand how that’s considered townspewing. Anytime someone offers themselves up for elimination, they’re automatically town? surely mafia also do that when under pressure/as a last resort in the hopes that people will think they’re towny for doing so. So then how is that a thing that is more likely to be town, if it’s also optimal for mafia to do so?

I know. I wasmt doing it to get town cred. I wanted to die yesterday since I wasn't a pr and we kept running up pr claims. And the worst case scenario happened where some people TRed me while others were still scumreading me. Honestly im a bit pissed at you though because I said I was the kill yesterday if you were scumreading me. You kept scumreading me but you helped mis-elim Norweej. Its something that both you and IV did. And I'm a bit confused how this play is coming from town to be honest.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I don’t understand how that’s considered townspewing. Anytime someone offers themselves up for elimination, they’re automatically town? surely mafia also do that when under pressure/as a last resort in the hopes that people will think they’re towny for doing so. So then how is that a thing that is more likely to be town, if it’s also optimal for mafia to do so?

I know. I wasmt doing it to get town cred. I wanted to die yesterday since I wasn't a pr and we kept running up pr claims. And the worst case scenario happened where some people TRed me while others were still scumreading me. Honestly im a bit pissed at you though because I said I was the kill yesterday if you were scumreading me. You kept scumreading me but you helped mis-elim Norweej. Its something that both you and IV did. And I'm a bit confused how this play is coming from town to be honest.

I backed off because I got the feeling I was misreading you in the same way I misread someone else D1 in the micro I kept referring to. I "scum"read you but "null"read norweej and was testing this theory that my "scum"reads are usually incorrect and that scum are usually actually in my "null"reads. and if everyone said you were townspewing I figured at least one of those people saying you were townspewing must have been town. it's D2 and now I'm reevaluating everyone and part of that is independently considering the townspewing thing so I can actually form my own opinion on it instead of sheeping other people.

The whole point of me claiming yesterday was to force a resolution on my slot. Either im town and force scum to kill me or you kill me yesterday. The stance that you and IV took was the worst possible take because you helped run up someone else while keeping me available to kill a different day. I like understand what youre saying fypov, but it was a negative ev play as I had claimed vt so I was a safe mis-elim and you didn't know that about anyone who had been run up at that point or about anyone that hadn't been runup.

Also, my flip would have exposed the convenient poe pool as flawed but here we are on D2 with me as a distraction again.

[Billy Pilgrim]

i think it's quite a clever fakeclaim (if it's a fakeclaim) but i'd be very loathe to clear someone off it especially when the setup feels like... quite heavy?

pedit: not really, who do you think the scum are?

Thoughts after looking at IV's ISO it doesn't look like he is really trying to solve, I remember IV asking a lot of questions as town and this just looks like filler content.

I don't know about the other stuff that is going on rn, but this just does not look like the town IV I know. VOTE: IV

Part of me wants to think that one of the wagons today is a town cw which would mean that IV going on zombie makes that the town one, but the other part just does not buy what plus has said at all.

:O
VOTE: IV
this is like, exactly the miselim we need

Wait, what?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Wait, what?

yeah the vote on me is weird but like... this part specifically is like too blatant agenda-y for scum!worsty idk

Worstys posting kind of gave me pings when they started casting doubt on plus but then retunnelled him made him look pretty bad which I don’t think scum!worsty does

He also said this is the mis-elim we need and I have no idea wtf that is supposed to mean. Like if its a joke its a stupid one.

[Billy Pilgrim]

also I'm V/La for like 36-48 hours.

[Billy Pilgrim]

So maybe im coming around to think that the claim itself is plus town. My main concern here is ducky's comment though. Hes saying that it makes sense to draw scum's attention in this setup. But like if its a fakeclaim, which ducky seems to be saying, Zombie wouldn't have known the setup. So that comment doesn't make any sense. In fact it only makes sense if ducky knows the setup, because even with these claims, I dont know the setup. I know whats been claimed and thats it. So I think long story short, I may be scumreading ducky.

That's respectable, I'll circle back to this.

Can you come back to this now?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I'm down with flipping Plus. I dont wanna end the day early though, so people should weigh in when they're ready.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Nep - I checked your iso and I didn't see an explanation. Not sure if anyone asked you, but im curious. Why did you target Una yesterday?

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: PlusJOYED

Lets see if this summons N_M

[Billy Pilgrim]

Well that summoned him and I think thats hammer. I hope IV was right.

[Billy Pilgrim]

where's the counterwagon :0
0:

Ducky, what was this post supposed to mean?

[Billy Pilgrim]

On a separate note i think this pretty much locks S_S town. Or else this is the bus to end all busses.

[Billy Pilgrim]

also the amount of twilight posting in the main thread when theres two teammates makes me feel like strange. Like why isnt plus just posting in the scum thread?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Like was the poe mostly right and water is the teammate?

[Billy Pilgrim]

also this should be obvious but there’s almost no way scum isn’t on the bus plus wagon

Yeah, given no countwagon that seems pretty likely.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Like was the poe mostly right and water is the teammate?

Wait, is water now Froppy?

[Billy Pilgrim]

also this should be obvious but there’s almost no way scum isn’t on the bus plus wagon

Yeah, given no countwagon that seems pretty likely.

^_^ i knew i liked u~

Huh? This was like the most obvious thing to say? Why'd this make you like me?

[Billy Pilgrim]

ok so if we revisit the D1 poe, its now 1 conf!scum and 1 conf!town

That leaves me and froppy/water/sirius slot.

Anyone else with me that the teammate is another low activity, which explains plus' twilight posting or am I off on that?

[Billy Pilgrim]

yeah ok fine bp is town

Why now?

[Billy Pilgrim]

IV and lillith, I'm ass at D1. I dont know what to look for. I need flips so I can look at wagon movement around flips and the logical progressions that got slots to vote those flipped slots. Not that im good at later days i just don't have a clue what I'm looking for on D1.

[Billy Pilgrim]

So hold on.

How did scum know Una wouldn't be protecting Nepenthes again?

This, but also are we sure the rolestop prevents the NK?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Why didn't scum go for S_S though?
I can't believe they didn't.
Unless they have a roleblocker to use on me (which is very plausible I guess?) they took a chance with the Nep-kill.
Which makes me fret the idea that they were somehow able to see what I'd do there, and played accordingly.

If roleblock resolves before rolestop then its a scum role. And are we sure that its also protective in addition to making the target ascetic?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Why didn't scum go for S_S though?
I can't believe they didn't.
Unless they have a roleblocker to use on me (which is very plausible I guess?) they took a chance with the Nep-kill.
Which makes me fret the idea that they were somehow able to see what I'd do there, and played accordingly.

If roleblock resolves before rolestop then its a scum role. And are we sure that its also protective in addition to making the target ascetic?

Lets not discuss this part of it any further until I fullclaim. Fullstop.

I'll defer to other people but im not sold on this being a town role.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Yea, I don't understand this logic either.
I'm a town-Rolestopper, and that's not changing.
Scum having any abilities to block ~anything~ with their abilities shouldn't mean anything in regards to that.

Furthermore - why are we discussing any potential roleblocks on me since there should be no reason to suspect/expect anything of the sort?
Was that a TMI-slip Billy?

You were the one that brought up a roleblock in 3867.

You wanna know why i think it's scum here. Rolestopper makes the target ascetic. Which means cops can't target it, trackers can't target it. Any investigatives can't target it. So if a roleblock resolves before the rolestop, wtf is the town utility of it. Youre just making a random person ascetic, which is Hella strong for scum, but pretty useless for town unless it protects which we're not talking about.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I’d appreciate a back and forth with someone else about the four slot to figure out if this makes sense and/or how/whether that fits with scum!froppy

I'll just help you kill it. Worst case scenario we confirm N_M and thats gonna be a nightmare to sort otherwise.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I’ve been doing some thinking and bp is just town

he just is

no I will not explain

This is like... what?

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: froppy

Wait, was this hammer?

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: froppy

Wait, was this hammer?

Nevermind E-2

VOTE: FourEyedDude

I wanted this D1.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Wait, Froppy is the waterD/Sirius -slot?
Who's the leading advocate for that lynch this day and time?

Ducky came in voting it.

[Billy Pilgrim]

So you think scum!FourEyes wanted to make town!Not_Mafia an IC?
Or you think he potentially paired the two of them so obviously?

I legit thought he and Lavar were kinda scummy D1. Then he claimed informed, but it was a weird informed claim that Lavar was town, which is like weird. So if it's a miselim it confirms NM, and if its scum the NM thing is wifom and we have to sort the pokecow.

[Billy Pilgrim]

You were the one that brought up a roleblock in 3867.

Only with the context that IF they have a roleblocker, they could've just roleblocked me and feel comfortable with killing Nep. That's scenario A.
Scenario B is a Strongman or something like that.
Scenario C is that the scumteam knew/guessed my plan for last night.

Yeah, if you remember I was kinda hung up on NAR and roleblcoking after the D2 claim debacle. That didn't fade from my head. Hearing you talk about it just brought it to the forefront and I dont see the town utility if a block resolves before a stop.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I dont see the town utility if a block resolves before a stop.

Well, I do not understand this at all then.
What is the point of a town!Doc if scum have a roleblocker? (because that's basically the same thing here)

Damnit I might be a dumbass.

[Billy Pilgrim]

If you're town and you did this, im more than a bit pissed you subbed in. Like sure, you werent subbing into an easy slot, but you werent anyone's first preference for an elim when you did. You knew how long the game was when you subbed in, so you could have caught up. This feels like resigned scum though. You gonna do anything but self-hammer. Because please help us kill scum
We'll find your partner tomorrow. If you're town though don't hammer, but this certainly made it easier for scum to mis-elim you.

[Billy Pilgrim]

The one slot that I was most baffled about upon reread was Billy though.
I do not see them being scum here, but at the same time...if I was forced to point at the specific moment where they "town-told" - gun to my head - I don't think I could come up with a post to quote.
It's more of a gradual evolution of everything?

This is now.like 3 slots independently that have concluded that im town just kinda like because. The first one felt a bit uncomfortable (ducky) number two (IV) felt a bit more uncomfortable, and now I see 3. So now I know that this is genuine from at least one of them and I legitimately don't know what to make of this. Like its not a progression. Its explicitly not a progression. So I dont think i can use their reads on my slot to read them at all which puts me wayyyyy out of my comfort zone.