Minvitational 8 - OVER before 611

[Oman]

Vote Oman

Certainly an Aussie thing.

Unvote

Selfvoting is scummy thread

Vote Vollkan

Voting me is

totally

UnAustralian.

[Oman]

This is why I love you vollkan.

Unvote Vote Adel

[Oman]

I too am very glad to be here. I consider being chosen a tremendous honor, knowing how many players out there are deserving of a spot. I look forward to a good game.

I felt the same way until I saw Oman and Erg0 here

Just kidding, and I probably shouldn't be talking. I personally think there are quite a few people that deserve this spot more than I. Spamming the GD must be worth something.

Lulz, I was feeling the same when I saw Jitsu and thought "Wow, this must be on game merit" then "AHHHHH shaft.ed! I feel better."

This game will be awesome.

Sim, any reason re: cicero?

[Oman]

The biggest problem with that post to me is he is way to quick to post "is probably a town tell".

I don't see it as a tell to either side Cicero, please explain why you find this a town tell (and be aware, a bad answer will land my vote on you)?

[Oman]

ADEL!

[Oman]

cum are more likely to want to float under the radar. So doing something cheeky and frivolous, like an annoying "let's lynch cicero har har har" is more likely to come from a townie than a scum.

Is there not scum benefit in starting a wagon on someone like this under the premise of a joke?

Be warned, however, that I think you thinking my opinion is scummy is in fact scummy so voting me will result in me voting you.

Bad threat. Terrrible in fact. Is my jumping on you worse than Adel's?

Not OMGUS, but because I will disapprove of your vote on a townie for not immediately jumping on someone with a vote that is more likely annoying than scummy.

I don't know you're a townie, do I? I have no evidence to that point. Nor can you expect me to have any. I dislike this constant exclamation that you are townie like this.

Unvote Vote Cicero

[Oman]

Ignore this line then:

Is my jumping on you worse than Adel's?

[Oman]

Is there not scum benefit in starting a wagon on someone like this under the premise of a joke?

Well if there is you should vote Simenon.

I don't believe it IS a scumtell. I believe its a nulltell.

[Oman]

Erg0, are you still on your "never ever scum" streak?

[Oman]

quietly notices Oman's shifting the wagon to cicero

I made it quite known that I was intending to shift to cicero.

Why do you note mine and not Adel's?

Oh and Adel: Noted I got it, I think.

[Oman]

We are following it, and it works, doesn't it?

[Oman]

[quote="CKD]and Oman is making sense...sort of...[/quote] What didn't make sense to you?

[Oman]

and Oman is making sense...sort of...

What didn't make sense to you?

I've got to agree with CKD here.

What you said made sense. But the fact that

you

said it doesn't make sense. Thus, it only sort of makes sense

I hammered enought o find toyu funny.

Well done, Vollkan sir!~

[Oman]

Oman's itchy trigger finger on that point is what didnt make sense to me.

OH YAH! CAUSE OMAN HAS NEVER BEEN HAPPY TO JUMP ON EARLY WAGONS!

[Oman]

Sigh, I'm pointing out your faulty logic, which rears its ugly head once again.

[Oman]

Uh...okay.

Where is the faulty logic, I jump on early wagons as town, scum, or third party neutral so unless you're suggesting that I am something never seen on MS.net, I fail to see how my logic is faulty.

Wanna try again?

[Oman]

I'm happy with my reasoning. I don't need to defend it to you.

[Oman]

My point here is that we were supposed to be bandwagoning you. But with your hard push on cicero in conjunction with Simenon's hard pushing, cicero became the predominant bandwagon.

Score

I'm at a loss as to why Shanba votes me and says Cicero's defence is unsatisfactory. Do you think that Cicero posts weak defence when town?

"It's just my opinion" sounds an awful lot like Gut in a Tuxedo.

I'm theiving this line. It rocks.

Please abridge for those of us on the go

BURN!

[Oman]

You have played with Oman before, right?

You taught me, in my first game to bandwagon early

OTOH, I seem to recall that Oman was working to eliminate that from his playstyle. Hey Oman, how's that one going?

I found it to be extremely ineffective. Basically, it meant that I having trouble pressuring people, because nobody flips on one vote. Plus, ICing all the newbie games I do, its good to get it moving along.

Decent town players should not act antitown.

Decent players....But yeah, I get your point.

[Oman]

OTOH, I seem to recall that Oman was working to eliminate that from his playstyle.

Why?

I disliked the predicability of my actions

I didn't want to mention it, because I think someone could (legitimately) gripe that they should have been chosen over someone that's only played two mafia games ever.

FTR: I nominated you, and I know that someone else did as well. Quality > Quantity.

@Oman: what exactly do you think it is that you got from that?

Actually, I thought you were trying to breadcrumb something (a la the Hopkins 62 thing) I googled it and found some stuff that could be breadcrumbing. I've decided not to be specific right now, because on the volitile nature of breadcrumbs.

That being said: I don't see how any Grateful Dead song would fit in with our current situation, so it seemed quite out of place to me.

[Oman]

Mod

can you just remind Billy, I know I often forget to watch the topic.

[Oman]

What this game really needs is for somebody to do something stupid. That usually gets things rolling.

Interesting. You apparently have a clear idea about what "needs" to be done, but you yourself aren't actually prepared to do it? Any reason why?

Was this a joke?

[Oman]

My point here is that we were supposed to be bandwagoning you. But with your hard push on cicero in conjunction with Simenon's hard pushing, cicero became the predominant bandwagon.

Score

I thought it was pretty clear from Oman's response he new I was kidding with him.

I thought so. But its hard to seriously say to someone "We were trying to get a bandwagon going on

you

"

[Oman]

Ya, cause it was a pretty dumb question.

[Oman]

I know this may come off OMGUS, but I think Shanba is "lurking" heavier than BT is. BT seems absent, Shanba is posting little content.

[Oman]

Jitsu and Oman probably remember the way I posted during day 1 in Undergroud Mafia.

Nope in replaced in late.

Happy steakday (so I use Marfur, sue me) CKD.

[Oman]

Jesus, I'm awesome at mafia.

Unvote: Vollkan, Vote: Shanba

TL;DR version.

[Oman]

Jesus, I'm awesome at mafia.

Unvote: Vollkan, Vote: Shanba

TL;DR version.

I'm sorry, I don't understand your abbreviations.

"Too long; Didn't Read."

In other words, Oman didn't read your post, but assumed your subsequent vote must be correct.

I'll get to your post in a bit, Jitsu.

Bullshit. I read it all. You want to tell me what I am and aren't reading now?

[Oman]

Unvote Vote Shanba

Hopefully we can shift this wagon above mine

[Oman]

'Splosion.

Posting tomorrow.

[Oman]

I didn't see any

openings

in his answer to

exploit

further .

Excuse me?

unvote vote: Jitsu

Unvote
Vote shaft.ed

Utterly opportunistic. This has to be a deliberate attempt to take that out of context, since I don't see how a townie who read the full post of Jitsu's couldn't understand his intention. Furthermore, he bolds some words in an attempt to distract from the larger picture.

I agree with Adel that vollkan looks likes he's trying to set up the Jitsu lynch. However, I'm not sure he would be if shaft.ed isn't scum, so I prefer this wagon.

I agree completely.

I will not be voting yet, because I want to see which of these wagons I like better. Shaft.ed's can be easily explained away, but Vollkan's is just a feel from Adel (which I don't quite get myself).

I think Shaft.ed has been bothering me more than Vollkan so far...

I'm going to take an uncharacteristic turn and not jump straight away.

[Oman]

Still reading.

[Oman]

ok. Still, do you think the profanity was the result of a genuine emotional outburst, or was a calculated rhetorical device, or something else?

I don't see compelling evidence that it was fake. Why are profanity and the preview button mutually exclusive?

I'm with shaft.ed. But I doubt that scumDel would think she could get away with this.

[Oman]

ok. Still, do you think the profanity was the result of a genuine emotional outburst, or was a calculated rhetorical device, or something else?

I don't see compelling evidence that it was fake. Why are profanity and the preview button mutually exclusive?

I'm with shaft.ed. But I doubt that scumDel would think she could get away with this.

That's what I keep thinking. Maybe scumDel's motive is not to lynch CKD, but to appear as townDel? The WIFOM, it hurts.

Brain Asplode

[Oman]

I fell off the wagon. Sim informed me of this. I am out of denial.

[Oman]

@Oman: why have you made 20 posts in other threads since your last post in this game?

Because this is an invitational, I feel no need to spout posts left and right. In fact, I'd much rather just watch you all and think to myself. I'm reading, and responding, but I am trying hard to change up the playstyle a bit, as you apparently did Adel, just to find something new and different.

Basically, I'm not usually a good townie, and I'm trying to improve my scumhutning.

[Oman]

@Oman: why have you made 20 posts in other threads since your last post in this game?

Because this is an invitational, I feel no need to spout posts left and right. In fact, I'd much rather just watch you all and think to myself. I'm reading, and responding, but I am trying hard to change up the playstyle a bit, as you apparently did Adel, just to find something new and different.

Basically, I'm not usually a good townie, and I'm trying to improve my scumhutning.

how do you scum hunt without asking question? I didnt know it could be a passive thing.

Other people are doing it for me, really. I don't think it requires MY active participation, I think it requires active participation of some sort.

[Oman]

I still feel like you're blowing smoke out your ass. Your moogle supports this hypothesis.

What have you learned from your watching?

I've learned that Vollkan isn't playing the way I'd expect him to.

I've learned that CKD is playing in a very town way.

I've learned that you, shaft.ed, are reacting well to the bullshit that I feel was thrown on you.

[Oman]

I've learned that Vollkan isn't playing the way I'd expect him to.

Really? I know he's commenting on other people's points but he doesn't feel too engaged. Even when he intereacts with others, he's usually talking about Jitsu. It's kinda like he's sitting in the corner making out with Jitsu while we all play mafia. Though I will admit Jitsu's most recent post was a nice summary of his feelings on the game. I'm used to vollkan pursuing leads more and not passively commenting like this.

I don't find that to be wholey correct. I think Vollkan is playing with more certainty than he did in SG-1 (IIRC)

I've learned that CKD is playing in a very town way.

So you disagree with BT's recent assesment then? I think his point was pretty good. Whether or not CKD was knocked back on his heels by Adel, he hasn't really been probing a whole lot.

You're right. I do dissagree with BT. Yes, he's not probing, and thats a point I hadn't considered (especially as he got into me about not probing). His reactions seem town to me, though.

I've learned that you, shaft.ed, are reacting well to the bullshit that I feel was thrown on you.

Hmmm...I don't really recall that much bullshit being thown on me. Care to elaborate?

[/quote]

Early, page 10 or so, there were two major wagons, Vollkan and Shaft.ed. You dealt well with that.

[Oman]

What do you think, Adel, of a CKD+Vollkan scumteam?

[Oman]

Who me?

The default lynch? That'd be pretty lame, as I don't think I've really done anything scummy and don't understand why I still have votes on me.

Anyway: Shaft.ed. I'm unsure as to which page, but there were two competeing wagons.

[Oman]

Vollkan effect does not occur in this case I'm sure.

[Oman]

Oh sorry, I'll do that question now.

Re: vollkan effect: I'm talking mostly about the fact that it has been recognised so epoeple will likely avoid it.

[Oman]

I refer to it as Bullshit now because in hindsight it was built on very very little but overblown. Much like most D1 stuff.

[Oman]

No he does PBPA and everyone follows them blindly.

[Oman]

The reference has been made to cliff notes. That's pretty accurate of the phenomena.

[Oman]

Wow 28% that was my HSC math score (untrue).

I disagree with Adel that deadline lynches are inheriently worse than day lynches.

I'm going to the gym, I'll be thinking about this game, and when I come back I will do my opinions of each player and thus who I think is best to eliminate at this stage of the game.

[Oman]

Oman made five additional posts on mafiascum.net since this last post of his. The most recent one was posted 27 minutes after he said he was going to the gym.

Yeah I post down the list, this was at the top of my watched topics, so when I opened it in a new tab it was first.

I'm not going to do this game at the exclusion of all others, Adel.

[Oman]

I'm writing up my Analysis now and rereading. It will take a while, but srsly, I'll join CKD if I think CKD is scum by the end.

[Oman]

Up to page 6. Need to utilise the last of the daylight, this is taking longer than I thought!

[Oman]

I'm going to try to avoid quote tags because of the huge space it will consume.

Adel

Before the Re-read

The thing with Adel is that she is wildly unpredictable, dangerous to both scum and town, and yet marvelously amazingly good at this game. Basically, she's Maveric from Top Gun. This makes her current play unreadable at a glance, will require more of a reread.

During the Re-read

Post 100: "cicero/Simenon scumgroup +1 " Adel gets town points for coming to the same conclusion as me.
Gets more Adel later in the 300s
Post 346: "I'm electing not to interact with ckd for a while, preferring civil company. " Complete bullshit. This is a terrible work.

TownDel

BillyTwilight

Before the Re-read

Billy is one of the only players I've never played with here. I have nothing on him except that he seems to post very sporadically, but with good content. I'll have to read him harder too.

During the Re-read

Lurky lurky, pops in to say "Tl;Dr = too long; didn't read"

Scummytwilight

cicero

Before the Re-read

Cicero's main issue was the first major wagon of the game, and what I thought to be a terrible(!) response and defence. I didn't notice him so much later in the game.

During the Re-read

Post 40: "Your bandwagon isn't right. I am town. And I suppose I could vote you for voting me with no reason, but the truth is being a cheeky bugger early in the game is probably a town tell. " This is what kicked it off for me. Cicero writes of someone as town early, something I like to do as scum. Not only that, he does it for a null tell, and does something I hate, states himself town. He continues in the subsequent posts, it just seems to be bad logic.
Post 47: "Be warned, however, that I think you thinking my opinion is scummy is in fact scummy so voting me will result in me voting you." This is terrible, obviously terrible.
Post 83: Cicero says Sim is scum several times but is still voting adel. The switches to Erg0 with this: "(like I dont have enough early enemies in the game, let's open up a WHOLE NEW FRONT!.) to draw attention to the fact that he is speaking only when spoken to (I call this my "Candyman" scumtell, and find it surprisingly effective) and, in responding, avoided taking a stand on the issues in play. Instead, he just posted fluff. " TO DRAW ATTENTION? You think you've found scum yet you're valiantly going off to draw attention to someone who isn't posting much?
Pops in 210 to dump on CKD. Seems like he only posted when he had enough ammunition to take someone out.

Scummy

curiouskarmadog

Before the Re-read

CKD has been stated a few times as being CKD+cicero. I'll be looking specifically at this, but try without confirmation bias at this point.

During the Re-read

137 CKD unvotes. His vote doesn't go anywhere else. I don't like it, it feels like he's trying to make it look like he's actually doing stuff without making an impact.

TowniouskarmaDog

Erg0

Before the Re-read

Erg0 has posted little, I hope to gleam much from it though.

During the Re-read

Nothing.

Bad! Scumg0/Towng0, no read.

Jitsu

Before the Re-read

Jitsu seems to be playing as Jitsu does, however, there is no meta for him. I think I'll have to take a look at what he is posting blindly, and look for the more "universal" tells.

During the Re-read

Post 166 is Jitsu's first killer post. And it just smells town to me.

Townsu

shaft.ed

Before the Re-read

Confrontational from memory, I'd be interested in seeing what causes this, where it starts, and what ends it (if anything).

During the Re-read

The first thing in the game that sticks out in the whole game is shaft.ed's post 14: To sim Re: Cicerowagon "You must persuade me towards your wagon."
Firstly, there is no way Simeon would be able to persuade him as we're 14 posts into the game, there is nothing. The only thing would be the strength of early wagons, which shaft.ed knows and accepts that this is/could be a wagon.
Post 22: "You had me at no. unvote vote: Oman " after turning down the cicero wagon, he jumps on mine. For the same reasoning.
CKD vote in ~198 is bothering.
The Jitsu: Exploit/openings thing is lame in 217\

Scumt.ed

Shanba

Before the Re-read

Scummy in the lurking, but thats about it. I wish there was more I could do with this, but there really isn't.

During the Re-read

Post 96 is obviously troublesome: "Unvote Vote: Oman I dislike cicero's defence of himself. "

Absent

Simenon

Before the Re-read

Another of the players I've never played with. Seems to take a very logical approach to the game, doesn't seem to put a face on every play, which I like for town. However, its easily faked, I'll have to read deeply.

During the Re-read

Sim seems pretty decent during cicerobash, he doesn't push too hard or anything. The early jump off is definatly concerning.
Post 180: He explains it well, but again jumps to the biggest wagon bar mine.

Townenon

The Fonz

Before the Re-read

Haven't really played with this guy since my first game ever. I don't know where he sits at the moment, haven't payed a lot of attention to him.

During the Re-read

Even at post 107 Fonz has not really contributed much to either side of any wagons. He sits the fence a lot (is this normal for him?)
Post 142: "Guys, a couple of you seem to have made comments in that direction, so why not join me in a shaft.ed wagon?" No-one really did, I don't know what he's talking about.
Accuses shaft.ed of lurking in plain sight..which is what he's been doing.

The Scumz

vollkan

Before the Re-read

Vollkan is a dangerous man. He is quite apt at manipulating a town, and I'm weary of him for that. I dislike his PBPA, I feel they could have had a lot more if he chose to do so, however, could easily be a townsperson who is not wanting to waste a lot of time.

During the Re-read

Wow, nothing here.

Townkan

Vote Cicero

FoS The Fonz, BT

[Oman]

Oman, seems like he has been the vote leader for awhile and I am not sure why. Especially with all the action that has been happening in the past week.

Basically no-one voted or unvoted during all this discussion, and when they did, it didn't go above the three I had.

[Oman]

I'm going to have to reread your PBPA cause I don't see CKD or Jitsu at all?

[Oman]

The Fonz

Before the Re-read

Haven't really played with this guy since my first game ever. I don't know where he sits at the moment, haven't payed a lot of attention to him.

During the Re-read

Even at post 107 Fonz has not really contributed much to either side of any wagons. He sits the fence a lot (is this normal for him?)
Post 142: "Guys, a couple of you seem to have made comments in that direction, so why not join me in a shaft.ed wagon?" No-one really did, I don't know what he's talking about.
Accuses shaft.ed of lurking in plain sight..which is what he's been doing.

Saying that I sit on the fence a lot is palpable nonsense. It has been entirely clear all day who my top suspect was.

Shaft.ed. However, shaft.ed was not the issue during the sim/Cicero thing and you took no foot in that.

And you'd have to be a complete moron, or not understand the term at all, to accuse ME of lurking in plain sight.

Lurking in plain sight is when you do post, but your posts do little to move the game on, or display a lack of independent thought.

I've been hardcore wagonning shaft.ed all day. It isn't my fault that the rest of you seem to be completely ignoring it.

Saying "join me on shaft.ed wagon please" does not advance the game. I'm really sorry, but you had plenty of oppertuntiy to post decent content and you chose one-liners requesting more shaft.ed death. That is LIPS.

Shaft.ed makes lots of posts, which strike me as being made to 'sound reasonable' rather than 'catch scum.'

I think he was put on the backfoot early (again IIRC), but other than that, he's been hunting well.

Votes Oman based on something Vollkan said.

Yeah, I'm with shaft.ed here, you've totally busted him: "No, I thought desire to get rid of oman was universal" "You had me at no" Post 15 or something like that.

As for 'what was scummy' about accusing Oman of trying to shift a wagon:

1) Oman doesn't need any excuse to bandwagon and 2) The bandwagon on Oman was pretty much baseless. Therefore, to accuse Oman of 'trying to shift' the wagon felt to me a bit off- he had no reason to try to shift it there, and it isn't like he's a newb panicking because he has a couple votes on him.

The bandwagon on Oman STILL is baseless, but he likes his spot. I believe him when he says it was a joke, we were jovial back then.

I know Erg0 can be quiet early game, are Shanba and Billy generally like this?

Floating possibilities, seeing if anyone bites...

I've done that myself several times this game "Is billy like this?" Etc. Does that mean I'm doing floating possibilities, seeing if anyone bites? No, it means I don't play with the guy. You're reaching.

OK so the consensus seems to be that Adel hasn't played this conservative before. I don't know what that means, but it obviously has my attention.

I also agree Shanba, Jitsu, Billy and Erg0 are not contributing enough.

"Here's an observation, which I'm not going to do anything with.

Also, what everyone else says."

I mean, who CARES what the 'consensus' is?

Still a ton more useful then him coming on and saying "Join me on Oman while I take no stance on Shanba, Jitsu, Billy, or Erg0."

So, he's been talking all this time about the differences in Adel's playstyle, AND HE DOESN'T ACTUALLY THINK IT SCUMMY?

I'll give you this, these seems incredibly strange Shaft.ed, got an explaination?

Noted, you felt Oman was scummy, and his quick vote (following Sime) for little reason makes him less scummy then my cautious unvote.

I've never once accused Oman of being scummy in this game. And your unvote was overly cautious thus suspicious.

And he left his vote on Oman how long, exactly?

If felt like you were trying to avoid a wagon on him.

in a sense I was, but at the same time not (psuedo vote). But lets say I was for an instance...that means I am likely scum in your book?

Why would you want to avoid a wagon on him if you remain suspicous of his play? It seems possible that scum would unovte like that to avoid a wagon on there buddy. Thus it seemed possible you put the vote on him as a form of distancing but didn't like the prospect of him encountering a sizable wagon out of the blue on his return. But I do realize that this situation requires both you and Shanba to be scum which is a lot of assumptions to be making at this point.

Hedges...

Very much so.

I didn't see any

openings

in his answer to

exploit

further .

Excuse me?

unvote vote: Jitsu

Speaks for itself...

I don't like how easily he drops his CKD vote.

So you think if Shaft.ed is scum that CKD is too?

Essentially, his play this whole game has struck me as rather consensual, trying-to-seem-reasonable kinda game plan, rather than one which is actually focussed on finding stuff out.

AN interesting view, which begs the immediate question:

Is sounding reasonable scummy?

Okay, that's odd. My maths must have failed me. I thought deadline was going to pass whilst I slept last night, but it hasn't. Good.

Tonight it does.

This is entirely a vote of self preservation: with one of the votes on me being from Shanba, completely unmoveable, and the other being from Billy, who I just called scum and is therefore unlikely to move it. My best option for survival is:

Unvote Vote CKD

I still don't believe he's scum, but he has a higher chance of being scum then me.

[Oman]

Hey look, I'll be on and off till deadline, so if a fonz, BT, or cicero wagon starts I'll jump on that.

I'd probably vote Adel over you too.

CKD, I thank you for not voting me, but I'm sure you understand. If we get adel to 3 before deadline I'll put the 4th down.

[Oman]

Vote Cicero

From yesterday. Nothing has changed.

[Oman]

Kison, I made a review of thread so far in which I gave my reasoning for cicerovote.

The vote on you was pretty pointless, because Shanba ended up being obviously AFK. The fact that he made terrible posts is easily explained by someone not paying attention to the thread.

Once it became evident that shanba was not here my vote was worthless, if I didn't remove it, it was because I'd neglected it.

[Oman]

It was Shanba who had a vote on me, you probably just got confused.

[Oman]

Didn't you post that before Fonz?

[Oman]

The only thing Fonz posted before was

Oh crap, that was supposed to be the second half of the post. The first is here:

Bizarre to do that twice. Not scummy. Bizarre.

Ah okay, threw me.

[Oman]

Note: The Fonz is part of my 3 man scumteam (Cicero and Billy are the two others). For that reason if Fonzwagon > Cicerowagon I jump on Fonz.

[Oman]

Of the other two people listed - which do you think is most likely scum?

BillyTwlight.

Simenon jumped on fairly late to prevent No lynch.

and I jumped on to save myself. I was NOT happy with CKD being lynched. I wanted you, fonz, or BT to go down. But it was not in the cards.

[Oman]

Oh and Oman, Vollkan is seen as one of the smartest people on the website. yet he went for the CKD case. Why not him?

I really don't think that vollkan being intelligent means that he can't get reads wrong.

What was the problem with the CKD case? I just didn't get the gut I get from reading a scumcase. In fact, looking at Kison's work on it, it seemed more like crazy Adel going to town on X+Y +1!

[Oman]

In my review I found BT to be far more scummy than Vollkan.

[Oman]

What was the problem with the CKD case? I just didn't get the gut I get from reading a scumcase. In fact, looking at Kison's work on it, it seemed more like crazy Adel going to town on X+Y +1!

Are you saying my Vollkan-dedicated paragraph is induced by Adel's insanity(:(), or that I exemplified the insanity of Adel's argument from yesterday(:))?

Do you have any reasons for your case or are you still basing your vote on the early wagon?

I have seen nothing scummier than cicero's change from posting a lot and being extremely defensive to hardly posting and not really comment on gme issues much (earlD1-Late D1) looks scummy scummy scummy.

[Oman]

I have seen nothing scummier than cicero's change from posting a lot and being extremely defensive to hardly posting and not really comment on gme issues much (earlD1-Late D1) looks scummy scummy scummy.

Weird. I don't think one word of this is true.

And you're the impartial judge of my arguments against you, of course?

[Oman]

Either are possible, I'll grant you that.

[Oman]

Post 40: "Your bandwagon isn't right. I am town. And I suppose I could vote you for voting me with no reason, but the truth is being a cheeky bugger early in the game is probably a town tell. " This is what kicked it off for me. Cicero writes of someone as town early, something I like to do as scum. Not only that, he does it for a null tell, and does something I hate, states himself town. He continues in the subsequent posts, it just seems to be bad logic.
Post 47: "Be warned, however, that I think you thinking my opinion is scummy is in fact scummy so voting me will result in me voting you." This is terrible, obviously terrible.
Post 83: Cicero says Sim is scum several times but is still voting adel. The switches to Erg0 with this: "(like I dont have enough early enemies in the game, let's open up a WHOLE NEW FRONT!.) to draw attention to the fact that he is speaking only when spoken to (I call this my "Candyman" scumtell, and find it surprisingly effective) and, in responding, avoided taking a stand on the issues in play. Instead, he just posted fluff. " TO DRAW ATTENTION? You think you've found scum yet you're valiantly going off to draw attention to someone who isn't posting much?
Pops in 210 to dump on CKD. Seems like he only posted when he had enough ammunition to take someone out.

Thats my issues with cicero.

[Oman]

Post 40: "Your bandwagon isn't right. I am town. And I suppose I could vote you for voting me with no reason, but the truth is being a cheeky bugger early in the game is probably a town tell. " This is what kicked it off for me. Cicero writes of someone as town early, something I like to do as scum. Not only that, he does it for a null tell, and does something I hate, states himself town. He continues in the subsequent posts, it just seems to be bad logic.
Post 47: "Be warned, however, that I think you thinking my opinion is scummy is in fact scummy so voting me will result in me voting you." This is terrible, obviously terrible.
Post 83: Cicero says Sim is scum several times but is still voting adel. The switches to Erg0 with this: "(like I dont have enough early enemies in the game, let's open up a WHOLE NEW FRONT!.) to draw attention to the fact that he is speaking only when spoken to (I call this my "Candyman" scumtell, and find it surprisingly effective) and, in responding, avoided taking a stand on the issues in play. Instead, he just posted fluff. " TO DRAW ATTENTION? You think you've found scum yet you're valiantly going off to draw attention to someone who isn't posting much?
Pops in 210 to dump on CKD. Seems like he only posted when he had enough ammunition to take someone out.

Thats my issues with cicero.

But you just sate "Late D-1" yet your entire list ends on post 210. And you have an error in 210 he jumped on Jitsu not CKD.

I'd say 83 is the only thing I saw fishy with cicero rereading his bandwagon. Him and Simenon were both accusing eachother somewhat strongly but voting someone else.

Thats my point, he seems to just try to blend late D1

[Oman]

Thats my point, he seems to just try to blend late D1

This is incorrect. Examples please if you're going to make such an assertion.

If I conceed will you not make me reread.

[Oman]

Thats my point, he seems to just try to blend late D1

This is incorrect. Examples please if you're going to make such an assertion.

If I conceed will you not make me reread.

No

unvote: vote Oman

If your top suspect is nothing but lip service, can you deny that you've just been going through the motions? I'll remove if you have something resembling a case against cicero.

I CAN find you examples..I'm just lazy.

[Oman]

I would like to see your examples. I can wait until you can do a reread.

FoS: Oman

Fine, its 4am here, and I just aren't in the mood for rereading. I beleive what I say, and will reread later, but not at 0400.

[Oman]

In my reread of cicero (Light reread) he does not "avoid" game related issues but just comments on them a lot more lighter than his early game. He does have some VERY good posts late game in terms of content (not in terms of scum/town)

Unvote. Vote Billy Twilight

Erg0 would be cool too.

Thats all that one contains.

It isn't that it isn't scummy. The question is: could you justify lynching Oman instead of Erg0 or Billy?

Unvote. Vote Fonz

A few aren't really game related but still take up space if you search his posts in isolation.

The early posts, by contrast, are almost entirely large and contentful.

[Oman]

EBWOP: I thank you, Jitsu, for giving me time.

[Oman]

A change in behaviour, from being under attack and posting with ferocity and surity to his offence when the offence is, as I read it, not terribly strong is a scumtell.

[Oman]

A change in behaviour, from being under attack and posting with ferocity and surity to his offence when the offence is, as I read it, not terribly strong is a scumtell.

Doesn't everyon post more when they are bein forcibly questioned? Did you think CKD scummy because he posted more when he was under attack?

not a terribly strong scum tell = "scummy, scummy, scummy"? Isn't that what you said?

Firstly, I didn't say it was a "not terribly strong scum tell" you might want to review that.

Secondly, CKD at least took some hand in game related issues when not on the defence which is what bothered me in cicero.

Is there anything particularly scummy about Cicero becoming more useless over time, or is it just the fact that his style shift that troubles you so?

Its the fact that the shift in style coincedentally fell where the eyes of the town shifted off him and he was trying to not stand out as much as he did early D1 during his wagon.

Is this not a concession in itself that your 'case' on Cicero was just hollow rhetoric?

No, I discuss that later with Jitsu, it's just me being a lazy chap.

How does defining Simenon's behavior as a slight town tell translate into writing him off as town?

First impressions. I probably exagerate there, but its a lot harder to convince yourself someone's scum if you start out thinking they're town.

Still failing to see Shafted's hammer as very significant.

I agree.

[Oman]

No probs

[Oman]

Kill WIFOM is an interesting beast, but my experience is that who

was

killed is far more telling than who

wasn't

killed. Although I've seen patterns over time in this area, it's really far too difficult to apply these reliably in any specific situation.

As such, kill speculation is one of my least favourite things.

I think both are two WIFOMable. I mean, what would say about Adel and Sim being killed.

[Oman]

Actually right now i'm taking the weekend off to help my sister with her house. I'll be back monday.

<3

[Oman]

Oman, after your weekend vacation... I'm curious as to whether or not there's more to your Cicero case than what you presented, and if not, whether or not you still think he's scum. I found your case to be pretty unconvincing.

Kison: That is all there is to it. I'm sure you do think that its unconvincing, but I find every other case weaker. I think my 3 man scumteam has a greater chance of having more scum in it than any other I've seen.

[Oman]

My top 3 has been stated already. I stand by them.

[Oman]

Just saw the bit where BT wanted me to see this:

Things I'm looking for:

1.) Adel-NK was bad for scum. They could really have used her for a mislynch today or later in the game. Going to look carefully at those throwing around suspicion of Adel, especially toward the end of day 1. Also, the vig/SK probably posted against Adel as well.

I dislike this approach. Best case we find an SK, worst case we unearth a vig. However, we won't know when we find them which they are. So the fact remains that this has little advantage.

2.) This game is VERY difficult for me to interpret. Looking for players who seem more confident in there assertions that I feel town should really be at this point in the game. Scum are more likely to have a "game-plan" of sorts, and that should show somewhat in their posts.

I find this to be inaccurate in a game full of good players who will be confident in themselves.

CKD and cicero were the only players who were actually voting Adel at deadline. Very interesting considering players were supposedly "taking sides" between Adel and CKD. On quick readthrough, those expressing suspicion of Adel towards the end of the day:

Fonz, Oman, shaft.ed, volkan, plus cicero, obviously.

This is...falsified. People were not exactly "taking sides" but trying to get a lynch. I feel several votes were diluted because of this.

Oman, shaft.ed, and volkan were much less forward about finding Adel scummy, but allowed for suspicion of Adel to be in their play and something they could return to later.

I'd say there is probably at least one mafioso in the above group. Right now my bet is Oman. I'll give a more thorough analysis of each of these players later this weekend/early next week.

I don't understand this. I'm your best bet for what? Mafia, you say? I don't really understand the criteria you're using either

Oman, can you reiterate why you think I'm scum?

You are the one I have to reevalutate because you're actually posting now. I'd like to let you know you're #3 in my group, not #1 so switching you out is no big thing for me.

Looking through your play you seem to be confident in other players scuminess (see cicero as well) but unable to back it up when push comes to shove.

I feel there isn't much there. There is what I said. And so if that isn't enough for some people (as Kison says) than that isn't my fault, really. Its the most I've got and if I find more I'll jump on it.

As a side note, if we have a Vig they are probably in the above list. I don't see a Vig killing someone (Adel) that they hadn't expressed suspicion of before. Much less confident if a SK killed Adel; they might or might not have expressed suspicion of her at any point day 1.

This is not good speculation. If we have a vollkan as a vig I want to keep him alive, because, well, I see vollkan has good vig skills (Friends and Enemies).

Cicero, you asked me which of volkan/Oman I would find scummiest, my answer right now is Oman. Volkan's player analysis from the end of day 1 were confused enough that I feel he is probably town in the same boat I'm in. Again, a more careful read will help me understand this better, but I don't have time this evening.

Indeed. I have little to say about this but I think you're incorrect and OMGUSing.

[Oman]

My top 3 has been stated already. I stand by them.

I'm really unhappy with the way Oman has been playing as of late. Is it really that hard to type out three names? And why are you still standing by your completely deconstructed cicero "case"?

I don't understand anyone else's suspcions and cases. If one floors me with turthery I'm all over it like a rash. Unfortunatly, there is no such thing as of yet.

I'm standing by what I admit to be a poor case because poor case > no case at all.

If you want proof that we're all thinking individually and therefore cannot grasp each other's cases, observe everyone's top 3, they're all different, with only a few in common.

[Oman]

His play is just so glaringly weird I don't know what to make of it, but the simplest explanations I can surmise are scummy.

Often its the simplest explaination that is correct, however, I'd like to point out that another explainaition over scummy is "different"

[Oman]

Erg0 is Candyman.

Can somone explain candyman to me?

[Oman]

Acutrally...someone ould mabye convinve me on vollkan .... seems many peopl efind his lack of "ScumFOUN!!D" To eb scummy. Is that ccrect?

[Oman]

Oman - you drunk or did your keyboard eat your fingers?

I don't think you could sum the Vollkan case up quite that neatly. But I do think he is scum in this game. I've given the reasons before and he's answered them but I'm not persuaded to ignore my gut on this one.

I was drunk...a little.

I'll take a look at vollkan, I just feel like my cases are dwindling away and I need to find scum!

[Oman]

Vollkan Moots?

Wait, are you a Rover then?

[Oman]

Vollkan Moots?

Wait, are you a Rover then?

*headdesk*

No, I meant this sort of moot. Basically, it entails pretending to be a barrister and arguing a case in a pretend court.

Thus, it is nothing like a Rover moot which, google tells me, is something that Australia's scouts do.

(Seriously, I'd rather rot on a crucifix than do all that outdoorsy, physical crap)

Panzy

[Oman]

Seems I need to take a Vollkan / Jitsu side.

I really don't think either are really scummy, and right now Jitsu is at 3, vollkan at 2.

I assume Jitsu will move to Vollkan making it 3 all.


Hmm.

Vote Vollkan

I see nothing against Jitsu that I can consider scummy.

[Oman]

Jitsu plays as Jitsu plays, granted he has no scum meta.

You however are playing differently, which makes you dangerous, Maveric.

I'd rather take out the unpredictably, slightly strange Vollkan, than the townie looking Jitsu.

[Oman]

I have a deep suspicion against someone that I can only explain as "gut" and one rather unreliable scumtell.

There is also The Fonz, who is giving me bad vibes for some reason. I don't know but he feels like he's had this set up for a while, or at least been looking at it, and just JUMPED at the oppertunity when his godfather went down.

None of this is reliable. I need to re-read.

[Oman]

Anyway my scum list would be: Oman, CKD and the Fonz.

Also,

vote: Oman

One out of three is another surprisingly reliable indicator.

That includes yourself Though I agree entirely with this point, that one/three is often scum.

attempt to out a power role at the very least with a fake claim.

I don't actually remember this?

Note shaft.ed's Oman related behaviour D2: Votes him, but makes absolutely no effort to convince anyone to join him. Re-read shaft.ed day two. He says 'I'm not happy with Oman's play' quite a few times. Does not really make anything resembling a credible attempt to get him lynched.

This is accurate of several people.

This should ring alarm bells. He's voting Oman at this point, but apparently, I'm his top suspect, and he's dedicating most of his time to attacking me.

That actually rings bells the other way. He was "attacking" you (lets be fair, neither of you was pulling a huge crowd to the battle) and focusing on you, but was reluctant to shift a vote your way.

(Also, note shaft.ed's attempt to 'lurker' lynch me With help from...)

Pretty lame if that was his best attempt.

Basically these tells are not specific to me, and many of them can be flipped to you, which is more ironic than anything.

[Oman]

Okay, I'm sorry it comes out like that, but the point was that it could be directed to many players.

I see how it seems like an OMGUS here, but I'm simply making a point.

[Oman]

Fonz, a few things come up here.

One was similar to Shaft.ed not saying that I'm scummy but voting me is the way that Simeon did that to Cicero at the beginning of the game.

The second is why, when you were so suspicious of shaft.ed, did you not bring all this up earlier (unless I missed it)

[Oman]

That was a pretty awesome night last night -- the Godfather is dead, and it appears that the mafia kill failed too.

Please tell me that I didn't just see the "reverse congratulating the doc" tell.

Does it work that way?

[Oman]

Interesting meta....btw: where did the Jitsu wagon go?

[Oman]

Hmmm...I'd still like someof the Jitsu wagon to disucss it.

[Oman]

Do you do one in three when you're scum?

Well, I *have* done it. I wouldn't say I always would. I've only been scum a handful of times. It depends on how the game was going though I think. I would want to shield my scumbuddy in case I died. At the same time, I'd mostly want to just look like an honest townie so it would more depend on the flow of the game.

I do it as scum sometimes but not others. In my last scum game I said my scumbuddy was the only one I thought was town through it all. The town were smart enough to forget the WIFOM and move on....hint.

[Oman]

Kison.

[Oman]

He didn't vote. He FoSed.

The first vote of a day is a powerful, powerful thing. And it doesn't sit that as far into the game as we are, he doesn't want to vote straight off the bat.

I've found that scum are very hesitant to be the first vote of the day because it does all sorts of things, and as I said this is a rather unreliable scumtell. But its certainly put Kison in the suspicious stage for me for the first time.

[Oman]

Kison: If I knew what it was caused by it wouldn't be gut.

[Oman]

I will reread Kison, I've just cleared my schedual and have a lot more free time.

[Oman]

The biggest problem with this reread is the fact that I can't genuenly call shanba scummy without feeling like I could just be missing the meat of it.

[Oman]

I want anyone whose considering following my vote to know that I am in no way 100% (i.e. investigation) sure on Kison, its totally my passive insight kicking in (/D&D joke)

[Oman]

I think its a nice thought actually. By saying CKD and shanba rely on eachother being scum, then pushing for CKD, dead CKD allows him to drop shanbascum as a case.

[Oman]

Trying to find my gut

Obviously the first issue is shanba's lurking, however, as Shanba just left, I think I can throw that away. But lets see what was posted.

Shanba also seemed to follow Shaft.ed's first vote on me The vote count shows it Shanba doesn't properly explain this, so she could just be trying to build something. Even when Shaft.ed is against shanba's lurking, he still votes CKD.

When shanba does post, she says that CKD's attack on shaft.ed is OMGUS and "doesn't make much sense".

Half way through, Kison doesn't enter yet. I'll do the rest later.

[Oman]

Vote Kison

Nice catch there erg0, thanks.

Actually...I don't know if I want that there yet...I suppose there is no harm leaving it.

[Oman]

@Oman: You sound as if you are not completely happy with your vote on Kison. What is causing that feeling?

Its this deep sense that he is scum, and I haven't found a watertight case on him. What bothers me is that everyone will just say "Omanscum is trying to pass of blame" and even when I turn up town you'll all still leave Kison be.

[Oman]

Not yet its not, maybe L-1, -2

[Oman]

Cicero, would you vote me?

[Oman]

Cicero, would you vote me?

Wait a minute, what are you asking here?

Are you simply asking Cicero's opinion about you, or are you actually asking him to vote you?

.


Cicero is correct, its a question.


I'm the vig. Sorry Adel But I got shaft.ed

[Oman]

Well I'd hardly say Shaft.ed was an anti-town kill

[Oman]

Well..I'm not going to talk about who I'm going to kill, I'm not going to do it on votes and the like. So uhh, lets not even start that.

I still want Kison (and sorry Cicero!)

[Oman]

Why fonz?

[Oman]

Fonz looks oppertunitic, just sayin'

Oh wait...he was the innocent.

[Oman]

I don't want to throw this one too high in the sky, but...what if the mafia forgot to send in a kill. Its happend before.

[Oman]

Again, I think its unfair that I should even attempt to defend this but:

There is no logical way that i can be a NK-immune SK because if I was, I would also be inv. Immune ("Not Mafia") and thats a little much.

[Oman]

Kison is the lynch guys.

[Oman]

Well...there could be an RB, which is possible as the RB could nullify the cop. And the Vig is swingy...

Stoofer's second ftw.

[Oman]

Adel: Greatful dead:

WHAT THE FUCK!

[Oman]

I won the game for the town.

Stupid town.

[Oman]

Jitsu effect? I forgot it! Someone link me!

[Oman]

You should post more then

You are an excellent player Jitsu, I want you to play more because of that, but don't want you to burn out.

[Oman]

I'm not as worried about Oman,

YOU SHOULD BE!

Oman weaker player, higher probability power role.

Weaker?.


Great flash btw