Mini Normal 2168 | So Many Bats! | Game Over!

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hello

VOTE: Norwegian Boy

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in other words its not alignment indicative

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sure it could be, it was a bit awkward

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VOTE: Odd Day Jester

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id be surprised if anyone has a scumread at this point. i think there is a difference between something being scummy and something being anti town. I voted on jester because I think his play has been very anti town so far

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well thats a lot of spam, i guess the timezone difference could end up being an issue
i almost want to vote norwegianboyee for the annoying one line spam but given you are probably the only one in the same timezome as me ill ignore it for now

Anyway I don't really want to argue against the townreads on me because I think that is awkward, however what I will say is that I would probably not townread someone for doing it because I am of the opinion that as scum it is very easy to push policy lynches as it is easy to justify and a good way of participating in the game.
In other words if Jester is town then it would be very easy for scum to justify a vote on him because due to his play he is pretty much just a policy lynch at this point.
I actually agree with what Jester said regarding meta and I am sure he understands that that is why I am voting on him. Do I believe Jester is scum? I am of the opinion that it would be dumb and a bit shitty towards your teammates to vote on yourself as scum as it is an easy way to put yourself out as a policy lynch - but I absolutely refuse to townread for him. I am also of the opinion that town should absolutely never vote on themselves because the only one they know for certain is town is themselves. I believe giving someone a pass for self voting is a big mistake as it essentially opens up for scum doing it for easy town credit in the long run.
I also think it is an easy way for Jester to try to make it part of his meta and I think that is awful so no matter what his alignment is I will push for it out of principle. So yes if Jester continues voting on himself I will also vote on him

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I'm scumreading Saudade.

Could you elaborate on this?

I'm scumreading Saudade.

saude plays like this as town; very distinct tbh

he never explained why he scumread him though.
but now that you brought it up could you explain this? I dont think ive ever played with him before in fact im not sure ive played with anyone here before unless there are alts around, so its hard for me to follow all the meta reads being thrown around.

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I'm semi-upset that we're on page 15 and it feels like we just left RVS. Not cool.

i have to admit that i really dislike this post. also credited Shelly for finally moving the game out of rvs in 154, i can appreciate the fact that perhaps the game didn't move in the direction you wanted but yeah.
overall you come across as really careful to me which i find suspicious

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eh just read saude's games

why would i? I am not the one using meta to defend or push him, if you want to push meta then it's you are free to explain it to me if you want me to take it into consideration

594 was pretty weird, seems like you trying to make a wall but your huge paragraph is mainly about how you will vote jester. seems tacky and overexplain-y

indeed, but that is exactly what it was. I am trying to tell jester that if he is town he needs to stop it because he seems to believe i am town and all it is going to accomplish if me tunneling on him

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duppin what other reads do you have

i don't really concur with your red read, fwiw he seems pretty disagreeable by thinking that the game is moving in a direction he dislikes

yes but just complaining about the state and not attempting to move it in a direction is suspicious to me. he seems to be complaining about the game state and being very careful with his reads (he essentially ended up only giving town reads) which to me indicate is trying to avoid confrontation while still appearing active. I am perfectly aware it might be too early to tell but that is the impression I am left with

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I believe giving someone a pass for self voting is a big mistake as it essentially opens up for scum doing it for easy town credit in the long run.

I believe voting Jester for voting himself is a big mistake as it essentially opens up for scum to wagon an slot that if flips town they can justify themselves by saying they were voting for a policy elimination.

Yes but that is actually what I said. It is also why I said that while I would not argue against the townreads on me I would not have townread someone else for doing it because if Jester is town then what I did is the easiest thing in the world to justify

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Bugspray is my toptown by far at the moment.

I'm not getting much for all of the meta reads being thrown around but I am trying to take them into consideration as long as people actually elaborate

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Also Jester is just joking most of the time, i can tell he's going to seriously play the game. And he even has been, posting reads and posting some votes for people other than him.
I don't think he's been an slot worthy of exile just because of his comedic tendencies.

But do you believe self voting should be normal?

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Also Jester is just joking most of the time, i can tell he's going to seriously play the game. And he even has been, posting reads and posting some votes for people other than him.
I don't think he's been an slot worthy of exile just because of his comedic tendencies.

But do you believe self voting should be normal?

Define normal?
As in do i think it's something people should seriously do as an AtE tactic? No. And it's easy for scum to copy that behaviour.
But voting yourself as the punchline of an joke? Why not? If he plays the game seriously when it matters, it wouldn't bother me at all.

I have already exlained why I think he should not do it and I think accepting letting someone incorporate into their meta is a mistake and it's one I can see causing a lot of WIFOM if it continues especially if other players start accepting it as jokes as well. But again yes this is nothing but a policy vote and I am well aware that I am pretty stubborn regarding this but yea

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I don't mind anyone voting Jester if they genuinely scumread him. But voting purely with the explained reason that they fundamentally disagree with self-voting is where i draw the line.

you are free to find me suspicious or vote on me for doing so I have no problem with that whatsoever

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i believe he said he was from another site but yes i think it is fairly obvious it is an alt and most likely someone from MS, but i dont think that is a reason for me to be more open to the idea of selfvoting to be honest

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I don't mind anyone voting Jester if they genuinely scumread him. But voting purely with the explained reason that they fundamentally disagree with self-voting is where i draw the line.

you are free to find me suspicious or vote on me for doing so I have no problem with that whatsoever

I don't really find it suspicious or scum indicative that you stand behind the position you've taken. I just fundamentally disagree with it.

Okay that's fair, anyway I've explained my position regarding this but it doesn't mean I'm going to tunnelvision, keep my vote parked on him or anything of the sort, all it means is that as long as we are both alive it is rather likely I will vote on him if he selfvotes

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I decided to go ISO Jester one more time.
I do actually believe he is town. I absolutely hate his self voting and I hope he stops doing it, but I am not interested in creating unnecessary distractions by pushing a policy lynch apparently no one else agrees with when I believe the player is most likely town.

UNVOTE:

I would also like to quote this:

?

I'll come back to this later. but I have a reason for my confidence

I do not think you ever followed up on this but I understand that you might be waiting for someting, I just wanted to quote it to make sure it is not forgotten

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Bugspray is my toptown by far at the moment.

sell me on bugs town when all they did was push on noraa

I believe bugs is town because he initially attempted to push a policy lynch on Jester as well but then revaluated his read and pushed elsewhere which to me seems to indicate he was actively trying to solve the game when he could have easily just camped his vote. I was briefly considering that it could have been an attempt at distancing but I think that is unlikely

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BS about jester's self voting is useless. you're not trying to sort anyone and I don't like it.

I never said it's useless, I said I think it's bad. Also as for trying to sort anyone, how am I not? I'm trying to engage red at the moment and I was also waiting for you to elaborate on the Saudade meta read since you claimed his town play was very distinct but I assume you do not want to elaborate on it. I actually checked one of his towns game just to see the day 1 and I do not understand what you picked up on but it's definitely possible I missed it especially seeing as I have no experience playing with him

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yes but just complaining about the state and not attempting to move it in a direction is suspicious to me. he seems to be complaining about the game state and being very careful with his reads (he essentially ended up only giving town reads) which to me indicate is trying to avoid confrontation while still appearing active. I am perfectly aware it might be too early to tell but that is the impression I am left with

redados SR'd saude, didnt he?

but you've made your point, I'll sort redados later as I have experience with them, for now I want to sort you + Grendel first

But he did absolutely nothing with it. He did not try to engage anyone or push which lead to me thinking he is trying to avoid confrontation.

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I may be wrong but did he just shade every single active slot in one way or another

So Saudade I have my own take on this but would like to hear yours first actually. Do you think this is a scumtell?

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What? Casting doubts at every slot you come across? Yeah it is

I was hoping for something a little more elaborative. I am not saying I disagree with you but I would like to hear your logic

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Like... Do you want me to teach you how to scumhunt?

No I do not want you to teach me anything. I'd just like you to explain your thinking

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Sure but this was not about universally townread slots but about a player finding a lot of players suspicious.

As I said I do not disagree that finding every slot suspicious is questionable but on the other hand and this might not be the best read actually, but something I've noticed in a lot of less experienced players is overthinking things making them I don't know scared I suppose for the lack of a better word to commit to a townread on someone because they keep thinking of ways the slot could be scum. It doesn't only happen to less experienced players, some players are also to proud etc. Overall I agree with the sentiment that being non committal is scummy, but my impression of that slot that this is his first game in a long time and his reads comes more from being paranoid which I associate with town rather than to throw shade at players. I could be wrong because I am a bit torn on him

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I will also gladly admit that my read is probably influenced by the fact that you called him out and I find you slightly suspicious because to me you came across as just wanting to be heard rather than actually trying to solve. The different meta reads being thrown at you does mean I might not be totally fair when evaluating your slot though and you did admit you don't really have much to go on early on which I obviously understand but yea

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well to be fair there are a lot of scummy humans

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that whole innocent child thing has to be the most awkward thing i have read in a while

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VOTE: Saduade

oh thats tempting actually

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I'm semi-upset that we're on page 15 and it feels like we just left RVS. Not cool.

i have to admit that i really dislike this post. also credited Shelly for finally moving the game out of rvs in 154, i can appreciate the fact that perhaps the game didn't move in the direction you wanted but yeah.
overall you come across as really careful to me which i find suspicious

trying to do more of a stream of consciousness for this game just because of the sheer number of pages, I am not being very careful especially

hm I could probably buy that. When you've caught up please let me know who you find suspicious

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actually I was kind of waiting to see what he would do given some more time, but I am curious to see where this will lead so

VOTE: Saudade

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I'm semi-upset that we're on page 15 and it feels like we just left RVS. Not cool.

i have to admit that i really dislike this post. also credited Shelly for finally moving the game out of rvs in 154, i can appreciate the fact that perhaps the game didn't move in the direction you wanted but yeah.
overall you come across as really careful to me which i find suspicious

trying to do more of a stream of consciousness for this game just because of the sheer number of pages, I am not being very careful especially

hm I could probably buy that. When you've caught up please let me know who you find suspicious

I've caught up, but I've read everything exactly once. I plan on keeping it that way, because of the sheer number of pages. When we get to something more consequential, like a lim, or if someone asks me to expand on a read, I will ISO dive or reread. But because we're 20 pages past less than 24 hours in, I can't do as much re-reading as I have done in my nine player games.

but surely you find some people more suspicious than others? I am not asking for detailed reads at least not yet, just some names

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but surely you find some people more suspicious than others? I am not asking for detailed reads at least not yet, just some names

not sure yet beyond what I've already said.

I see, but could you explain what you are waiting for at the moment then? you don't seem to be pushing in any direction and you seem to be fine with everything that is going on which surprises me given the fact that you were very vocal about not liking the current game state earlier

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but surely you find some people more suspicious than others? I am not asking for detailed reads at least not yet, just some names

not sure yet beyond what I've already said.

I see, but could you explain what you are waiting for at the moment then? you don't seem to be pushing in any direction and you seem to be fine with everything that is going on which surprises me given the fact that you were very vocal about not liking the current game state earlier

I'm waiting to see some real wagons and how people react to them as opposed to these reaction-test wagons.

But why don't you try to push a wagon then?

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but surely you find some people more suspicious than others? I am not asking for detailed reads at least not yet, just some names

not sure yet beyond what I've already said.

I see, but could you explain what you are waiting for at the moment then? you don't seem to be pushing in any direction and you seem to be fine with everything that is going on which surprises me given the fact that you were very vocal about not liking the current game state earlier

I'm waiting to see some real wagons and how people react to them as opposed to these reaction-test wagons.

But why don't you try to push a wagon then?

@Redados you never responded to it but I am really curious as to why this is the case. I said my earlier read on you was that you were being very careful and non-confrontational which I find suspicious, so the fact that your plan now is to wait and see what everyone else does, doesn't really help my read on you. I will say one thing that kind of makes me hesitate on you is that it feels like a lot of people are scumreading (and you are only at 2 votes at the moment I believe) which I am not sure what to make of yet

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UNVOTE:

still think its shelly, but i havent started reading yet

so why did you think it was shelly?

ok im all caught up.

yes, im caught up from the very beginning.

of page 30.

so far redados is scummy
not sure why shelly is pushing me, it seems no one else agrees? shelly has had some interesting takes.
im watching noraa.
does norwee roll only scum in normals?

just to avoid confusion, does this mean you are still scumreading shelly or not?

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hm I am going to be honest Noraa, if you are town you are mislynch bait.

60% of your posts are fluff and the rest of your play is just reactionary which I'd normally consider to be a scumtell. You're not really doing anything proactive whatsoever, the readlist you just gave before gives the impression you're not really trying to figure out peoples alignment (like mixing me and bugspray up at this point is really weird to me). It doesnt really feel like youre putting in an effort to solve peoples alignment, however I am not convinced you are scum at all as this could indeed just come from a new player as well but yea if you are town then I sincerely hope you can be a bit more proactive

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i am slowly catching up and taking notes thank you for not making too much content

once again quoting just to make sure this isn't lost (I also have not forgotten about the thing shelly promised to follow up on later)

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@UNOwen I'm going to need to hear some more from you. Some reads or thoughts on the game please

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I was okay with Tayl0r's predecessor but not sure what to think of the slot at the moment. I know Jester already asked you to explain why you find his read on Saudade opportunistic but I would also really like to hear your read on Saudade since you did throw slight shade towards him earlier saying him being silent is a scum tell, I am well aware you were being sarcstic about your vast experience with him but still you never mentioned him after that.

actually i'd also like to hear your read on Mundivore since you said one of their posts concerned you but then you never mentioned them after that either

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@UNOwen I'm going to need to hear some more from you. Some reads or thoughts on the game please

Ask specific questions and you shall receive specific answers.

In general though I think Redados is most suspicious and am surprised there's not more interest in the wagon against him. Shellyc's earlier behaviour with Jackson was also suspicious but it remains to be seen if she has a more compelling explanation for that read. Outside of that I get the impression that despite the high quantity of posts this game is spinning wheels. Jester's read list that was unable to identify scum felt like a fair and honest assessment. Perhaps once saudade is no longer vla, the replacements are made, and the catch-up players have caught up there will be more notable developments. For now I am satisfied with what I am pursuing.

i see, well then my question would be why are you not trying to push harder on redados?

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Hrm. I'm tired of all the fluff.

It feels like there hasn't been any really consequential scumhunting at all in these entire forty-two pages. Nobody has made behavior with actual

stakes

. I don't know if I can confidently eliminate even a single pair of scumbuddies with any degree of confidence.

Things won't happen unless town starts voting for people. I've been part of the problem, but it's easy enough to fix.

VOTE: Saudade to E-2.

I actually don't like this wagon. I like Saudade for town. However, either this entices scum out to put more votes on people, or I get shown a more compelling wagon, right? But somebody really needs to start taking risks for us to actually

learn

things.

why do you like saudade for town?

[duppin]

sorry had a busy day yesterday, will catch up later today

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I was okay with Tayl0r's predecessor but not sure what to think of the slot at the moment. I know Jester already asked you to explain why you find his read on Saudade opportunistic but I would also really like to hear your read on Saudade since you did throw slight shade towards him earlier saying him being silent is a scum tell, I am well aware you were being sarcstic about your vast experience with him but still you never mentioned him after that.

actually i'd also like to hear your read on Mundivore since you said one of their posts concerned you but then you never mentioned them after that either

thats basically how i operate. youre gonna see me throwing some random shit at random walls for a while until i get settled

sure that's fair, but i would still like to hear your read on Saudade

Hrm. I'm tired of all the fluff.

It feels like there hasn't been any really consequential scumhunting at all in these entire forty-two pages. Nobody has made behavior with actual

stakes

. I don't know if I can confidently eliminate even a single pair of scumbuddies with any degree of confidence.

Things won't happen unless town starts voting for people. I've been part of the problem, but it's easy enough to fix.

VOTE: Saudade to E-2.

I actually don't like this wagon. I like Saudade for town. However, either this entices scum out to put more votes on people, or I get shown a more compelling wagon, right? But somebody really needs to start taking risks for us to actually

learn

things.

why do you like saudade for town?

If I'm going to be honest? It's simply because I don't understand the cases against them, and because nothing they've said pinged my scum radar. I've not gotten a gut 'ping' against them, and with the amount of output this thread is creating, keeping up with it is all I can do. Rereads are prohibitive with how long this thread is. If you still feel like your case is strong, and can succinctly summarize it or easily reach a link back to the primary context, I'd appreciate it.

hm okay i can maybe buy this, my initial concern was that Saudade had done absolutely nothing to warrant a town read in my opinion (unless it's a meta read of course). Don't get me wrong I don't think Saudade has been super scummy either but i find it slightly suspicious if someone has a townread on him because it gives me the impression they know something i do not. It actually makes me lean slightly more towards Saudade possibly being town simply due to the fact that I have a hard time understanding how a town player would have a townread on him at this point especially since several of the players in this thread seem to suggest that Saudade is a really good player. I have personally never played with him before but if he is a strong player then it does not really make sense to me that people are townread him when he hasn't really done anything so far since he has some real life stuff going on at the moment. so yeah when you call a townread on him to me it comes across as you trying to gain some towncred in case he is town and is mislynched, and the fact that you voted on him even though you thought he was town is just.. weird. It gave me the impression you wanted to vote on him but wanted to avoid the lashback at all cost in case he is mislynched (if we assume he is town in this scenario), but on the other hand I just think it's such a weird way for you to do that if you are scum

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oh as for my own read on Saudade I said early on why I thought he was slightly suspicious earlier, generally it comes to me getting the impression that he was just trying to be heard and make sure he had a presence without actually attempting to game solve. My initial plan was to just give him some time and wait for him to do something. he and a couple of other players talked about him having good reads and I have to admit I thought it was a bit odd how he kept talking about his own good reads while also saying he had no real reads yet since it is early on in the game. Don't get me wrong it obviously makes sense for him to not have good reads yet and it is definitely not fair for me to call him out for that, but i think you will agree that it is harder to fake good reads as scum which was why I wanted to give him some more time to see if he would come with these so called "god reads", but then a little later norwee decided to vote on him which I did not expect, but I decided to join the wagon since I thought it would be interesting to see what would happen. Unfortunately he had to deal with some real life stuff which made the push rather lackluster in my opinion

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?

I'll come back to this later. but I have a reason for my confidence

I do not think you ever followed up on this but I understand that you might be waiting for someting, I just wanted to quote it to make sure it is not forgotten

shelly I'm going to bring this up again simply because I want to know if this is something you are going to follow up on day 1 or not. (at least I do not believe you have followed up on it yet?)

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OK IM OFFICIALLY CAUGHT UP

caught up to here rn, taking notes in my personal pt so that i have actual damn reads

could you please share reads then. you were my top town early on and I still believe you are more likely to be town, but I am not entirely sure where you are at at the moment.

you said noora is your top scumread, could you try to elaborate on this? I understand your initial reason for voting on her but a lot has happened since so I am not entirely sure what your current read is

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duppin can u try to solve anyone outside of the {saudade} pool?

sure I can follow up on my previous reads:

At the moment I am fairly confident bugspray (although they have dropped a bit), Jester, Norwee are town.

I believe shelly is town as well actually. I have not played with her and most of the scumreads on her seems to be a bit biased on meta but the reads themselves seem to be a bit lackluster to me.
I think someone said it was suspicious of her to do pre flip reads but I disagree with this a lot actually - it is bad if she starts playing around pre flips, but expressing her thoughts on a potential flip is something I find to be a bit more towny albeit easy to fake as scum as well as it helps you set up your read progression in case you get a mislynch through. But the counter argument to that in this case is in my opinion that shelly has been all over the playerlist. I am pretty sure she has called out everyone for something at this point and has engaged with everyone. I have no idea if this is out of her scumrange or not but to me her play jsut comes across as coming from a town perspective.

I still find redados suspicious for the exact same reasons I listed earlier. He hasn't really managed to change my mind, my only concern is still that it almost feels hm I guess too easy? There's not really much defense or counter pressure, it does not mean he isn't scum but it just makes me a bit concerned

As for Saudade I just mentioned it before.

I don't really know about the rest. In fact I am trying to avoid reading you at the moment noraa because every time I try to read you I keep thinking that this could simply be explained by you being a new player. I am kind of leaning of some of the meta reads being thrown at you

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also and this is such a garbage read but i just cant help myself and no one should try to pursue it but part of me can't help but wonder if jackson and mini replaced out because one of them accidently learned the others alignment in which case it would make sense if they already replaced out, but i just think it would be even more likely if the alignment was scum. but yeah this is just a non sense theory for post game

[duppin]

i think saude is a solid townlean too

i missed this, could you explain why you think so?

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uh i just gave my reads?

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also there is an attempt to solve. my initial read was that Mundivore was likely to be scum since I do not believe they could have a genuine townread on Saudade but then they explained it had more to do with the push itself, but that still makes the push so weird. I think Mundivores vote is a bit suspicious no matter what though but I could buy his explanation

now that I learned PlusJOYEd had a townread on Saudade as well I am slightly susp of that slot though

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duppin can u try to solve anyone outside of the {saudade} pool?

sure I can follow up on my previous reads:

At the moment I am fairly confident bugspray (although they have dropped a bit), Jester, Norwee are town.

I believe shelly is town as well actually. I have not played with her and most of the scumreads on her seems to be a bit biased on meta but the reads themselves seem to be a bit lackluster to me.
I think someone said it was suspicious of her to do pre flip reads but I disagree with this a lot actually - it is bad if she starts playing around pre flips, but expressing her thoughts on a potential flip is something I find to be a bit more towny albeit easy to fake as scum as well as it helps you set up your read progression in case you get a mislynch through. But the counter argument to that in this case is in my opinion that shelly has been all over the playerlist. I am pretty sure she has called out everyone for something at this point and has engaged with everyone. I have no idea if this is out of her scumrange or not but to me her play jsut comes across as coming from a town perspective.

I still find redados suspicious for the exact same reasons I listed earlier. He hasn't really managed to change my mind, my only concern is still that it almost feels hm I guess too easy? There's not really much defense or counter pressure, it does not mean he isn't scum but it just makes me a bit concerned

As for Saudade I just mentioned it before.

I don't really know about the rest. In fact I am trying to avoid reading you at the moment noraa because every time I try to read you I keep thinking that this could simply be explained by you being a new player. I am kind of leaning of some of the meta reads being thrown at you

can you point us to specific posts? this isnt helpful because i cant track any of your progressions

the interaction between me and Saudade started in 631

[duppin]

Eh the uh preflip shit was directed at me cuz I did a huge paragraph on what would happen if redados flipped red.

no taylor called shelly out for doing it. i can see that you did it as well though

I think u should still try to solve me regardless of what's going on with the newbie thing. Even a wrong SR is better than nothing considering we are on page 57 and close to the end of day 1 ... maybe?

I actually just tried to read the games but don't feel I got that much from it. The only thing I will say is that I do think you came across as more scummy in those games but there is a possibility that my read is influenced by the fact that I already knew your alignment before reading them.
I think it's fine for me to lean on the meta reads for day 1 as long as I trust the people bringing them up

[duppin]

duppin can u try to solve anyone outside of the {saudade} pool?

sure I can follow up on my previous reads:

At the moment I am fairly confident bugspray (although they have dropped a bit), Jester, Norwee are town.

I believe shelly is town as well actually. I have not played with her and most of the scumreads on her seems to be a bit biased on meta but the reads themselves seem to be a bit lackluster to me.
I think someone said it was suspicious of her to do pre flip reads but I disagree with this a lot actually - it is bad if she starts playing around pre flips, but expressing her thoughts on a potential flip is something I find to be a bit more towny albeit easy to fake as scum as well as it helps you set up your read progression in case you get a mislynch through. But the counter argument to that in this case is in my opinion that shelly has been all over the playerlist. I am pretty sure she has called out everyone for something at this point and has engaged with everyone. I have no idea if this is out of her scumrange or not but to me her play jsut comes across as coming from a town perspective.

I still find redados suspicious for the exact same reasons I listed earlier. He hasn't really managed to change my mind, my only concern is still that it almost feels hm I guess too easy? There's not really much defense or counter pressure, it does not mean he isn't scum but it just makes me a bit concerned

As for Saudade I just mentioned it before.

I don't really know about the rest. In fact I am trying to avoid reading you at the moment noraa because every time I try to read you I keep thinking that this could simply be explained by you being a new player. I am kind of leaning of some of the meta reads being thrown at you

can you point us to specific posts? this isnt helpful because i cant track any of your progressions

the interaction between me and Saudade started in 631

can you walk us through posts that made you scum/townread people other than saudade and explain what about the post made you scum/townread the person?

I have no problem elaborating on my reads, but it's not really about specific posts.
However I have asked you to share your Saudade read several times now so I'd like you to do that as well

[duppin]

as for my top town reads:

bugspray: I explained it in 621 as well(it's related to everything I talked about before that as well though regarding policy lynching etc). as I have said he is definitely dropped off a bit but I still believe he is town.
Jester: I made my stance very clear early on regarding selfvotes and policy lynching. There wasn't really any support for it, so I decided to ISO him and I thought he was pretty town. Main reason for this was him being a leading voice by trying to game solve but also just me finding his thoughts to be very logical and him catching on to some of the same things I did (like the shelly thing I asked her to follow up on; Jester initially questioned this and when shelly did not respond to him he brought it up again even though it seemed like she might have tried to change the subject. I really thought that was a town thing to do especially since I was bothered by the same thing)
Norwee: Early on I went a bit back and forth on him but I thought his interactions with Saudade was pretty town and I quite liked his response to Saudade calling him out. I think overall his play has been rather pro town - I don't really agree with all of his reads but to this is a bit like with Jester in the sense that we seem to notice the same things, best example would be both of us finding it very questionable how people could have a townread on Saudade.

[duppin]

saudade is because of meta tho

i see, well i would really appreciate if you could elaborate on this. i think players have called him town due to meta whereas 2-3 scum so im starting to question the meta reads

[duppin]

i think 2 players have called him town and 2-3 players have called him scum*

[duppin]

duppin can u try to solve anyone outside of the {saudade} pool?

sure I can follow up on my previous reads:

At the moment I am fairly confident bugspray (although they have dropped a bit), Jester, Norwee are town.

I believe shelly is town as well actually. I have not played with her and most of the scumreads on her seems to be a bit biased on meta but the reads themselves seem to be a bit lackluster to me.
I think someone said it was suspicious of her to do pre flip reads but I disagree with this a lot actually - it is bad if she starts playing around pre flips, but expressing her thoughts on a potential flip is something I find to be a bit more towny albeit easy to fake as scum as well as it helps you set up your read progression in case you get a mislynch through. But the counter argument to that in this case is in my opinion that shelly has been all over the playerlist. I am pretty sure she has called out everyone for something at this point and has engaged with everyone. I have no idea if this is out of her scumrange or not but to me her play jsut comes across as coming from a town perspective.

I still find redados suspicious for the exact same reasons I listed earlier. He hasn't really managed to change my mind, my only concern is still that it almost feels hm I guess too easy? There's not really much defense or counter pressure, it does not mean he isn't scum but it just makes me a bit concerned

As for Saudade I just mentioned it before.

I don't really know about the rest. In fact I am trying to avoid reading you at the moment noraa because every time I try to read you I keep thinking that this could simply be explained by you being a new player. I am kind of leaning of some of the meta reads being thrown at you

can you point us to specific posts? this isnt helpful because i cant track any of your progressions

the interaction between me and Saudade started in 631

can you walk us through posts that made you scum/townread people other than saudade and explain what about the post made you scum/townread the person?

I have no problem elaborating on my reads, but it's not really about specific posts.
However I have asked you to share your Saudade read several times now so I'd like you to do that as well

theres not much to my saudade read. i feel like he should be more active but its irl stuff rather than in game stuff, so he gets a pass for now. i really need you to explain some of your non-saudade reads

And I have. You could also just ISO me. If you want to know something specific you are free to ask as well

[duppin]

duppin. you need to explain your reads. you stated some reads but i have no idea why you believe anything that you say you believe.

hm see I have explained all of the reads I have given. I was under the impression that if you were town you reaching out to me was because you were trying to solve my slot, but the impression I am getting is that you have not tried to ISO me and you don't seem to be reading what I am saying either, so I'm beginning to question your motivation actually

oh as for my own read on Saudade I said early on why I thought he was slightly suspicious earlier, generally it comes to me getting the impression that he was just trying to be heard and make sure he had a presence without actually attempting to game solve. My initial plan was to just give him some time and wait for him to do something. he and a couple of other players talked about him having good reads and I have to admit I thought it was a bit odd how he kept talking about his own good reads while also saying he had no real reads yet since it is early on in the game. Don't get me wrong it obviously makes sense for him to not have good reads yet and it is definitely not fair for me to call him out for that, but i think you will agree that it is harder to fake good reads as scum which was why I wanted to give him some more time to see if he would come with these so called "god reads", but then a little later norwee decided to vote on him which I did not expect, but I decided to join the wagon since I thought it would be interesting to see what would happen. Unfortunately he had to deal with some real life stuff which made the push rather lackluster in my opinion

Why is this post so weird? It sounds defensive and unnatural explaining his own logic/thought process at the time. Maybe it's just the wording that's pinging me.

I am unsure as to why you think it is defensive and unnatural. I like to explain my logic and thinking, it's also the same reason why I often read people the same way.

am pretty sure she has called out everyone for something at this point and has engaged with everyone. I have no idea if this is out of her scumrange or not but to me her play jsut comes across as coming from a town perspective.

Why does that come from a town perspective rather than scum trying to find scummy things to point out from every player?
A town perspective doesn't normally involve finding everyone sus at one point or another in such a short space of time. There's a lot more town than scum in the setup.

Sure it could be, but generally I just believe it is more likely to be a town tell. It sounds to me that the main scumreads on her are based on her aggressiveness and I just don't think aggressiveness is really a scumtell

Plus, what VCA made you think I was town?

i assume that this is aimed at me, but I never said VCA had anything to do with my read on you so what are you referring to?

[duppin]

as for my top town reads:

bugspray: I explained it in 621 as well(it's related to everything I talked about before that as well though regarding policy lynching etc). as I have said he is definitely dropped off a bit but I still believe he is town.
Jester: I made my stance very clear early on regarding selfvotes and policy lynching. There wasn't really any support for it, so I decided to ISO him and I thought he was pretty town. Main reason for this was him being a leading voice by trying to game solve but also just me finding his thoughts to be very logical and him catching on to some of the same things I did (like the shelly thing I asked her to follow up on; Jester initially questioned this and when shelly did not respond to him he brought it up again even though it seemed like she might have tried to change the subject. I really thought that was a town thing to do especially since I was bothered by the same thing)
Norwee: Early on I went a bit back and forth on him but I thought his interactions with Saudade was pretty town and I quite liked his response to Saudade calling him out. I think overall his play has been rather pro town - I don't really agree with all of his reads but to this is a bit like with Jester in the sense that we seem to notice the same things, best example would be both of us finding it very questionable how people could have a townread on Saudade.

my pronouns are they/them

my apologies

[duppin]

ok but walk me through whats giving you the townread

actually I'd also like to hear your scumread on me

[duppin]

will tentatively jump on duppin wagon since after revisiting their ISO didn’t look very good. they’re a big null and I want to pressure them

your progression on me is really difficult to follow to be honest, but i will bite. Why do you think my ISO looks bad?

[duppin]

Hm I see. Yes I was just about to say that this seems more like a conf bias as in it seems like you tried to evulate everything i did as if i was coming from a scum perspective rather than finding the action itself scummy. an example would be regarding my policy push on jester, i was not townreading him when i was trying to push for the policy lynch, i dropped my policy lynch push after i townread him. i do appreciate the fact that you admitted to this though

[duppin]

Thanks for your answers, duppin. I think I got a far different vibe from you early game when you voted me advocated policing self-voters, I'd slotted you into a certain archetype of rigid/stubborn player, but your tone and the way you explain things is actually very different. You're tentative and apprehensive in your explanations. I don't know whether it's AI though.

i have never heard anyone describe me like that before actually. i havent had time to play hear for a year or so, so admittedly i might be a bit rusty which might affect the way i come across at times, but i think if that is your impression of my style it is very much a possibility you are going to change your read on me several times throughout the game assuming we are both alive, since i am not sure believe it is correct

[duppin]

the most important thing is probably that i mainly care and read into logic, so while i may not agree with all of your or norwee conclusions i think the logic is good and that your consistent which is why i believe both of you are more likely to be town

[duppin]

it's also why my townread on shelly is not as strong as the others because i dont really follow most of her logic, but her tone and aggressivenes to me just resemble more of a townplay. to me it does not come across as her having an agenda. You seem to suggest it is part of her scum meta, but could you explain what you think is different compared to her townmeta then?

[duppin]

i dont know Jester, I could try to read some more games from her I guess.

[duppin]

actually shelly said that the confidence had nothing to do with her alignment so i think its weird that she seems to suggest it might have something to do with her role now

[duppin]

Oh, really? Link the post?

I mean the whole reason it started was due her saying the confidence had nothing to do with her alignment:

Okay, basically, shellyc, I think confidence/cockiness is a major scumtell for you. You're a lot more reserved and less aggressive in your town games, and play just like this in all of your scum games. I had to stretch for meta a bit, and look at marathons games too.

have you considered non-alignment reasons for confidence?

[duppin]

jester + duppin role fishing scum?

I explicitly softed hard that I was an Informed Townie to find those ROLEFISHERS

in all honestness it’s just a play style choice. jesters right, im trying to be more assertive to push my reads harder and be more convincing as town?

no matter what your alignment is I really think you need to drop the role fishing angle because no one talked about roles until you brought it up the second time i asked you if you were going to follow up on your statement since you said you would do so. you were the first and only one to indirectly paint yourself as a role, i have not asked for your role at any point all I did was ask you if you were going to follow up on your claim saying that your confidence had nothing to do with your alignment which to me indicated that it had nothing to do with your role either, so i have no idea how you could reach the conclusion it could be rolefishing the second time to be honest.

[duppin]

to me it comes across as you wanting shutdown the discussion, as for your motivation i have no idea. perhaps it is because you are indeed a role, i cant possibly now all i am pointing out is that i am not too fond of how this went down no matter what your alignment is

[duppin]

oh you said it was a playstyle choice. if that is the case then I think this was a weird play to be honest

[duppin]

looking back at the whole thing, this doesnt really affect my read on her that much. I think its a super weird play but it kind of lines up with some of her other "baits". Whether she is using bait as an excuse or not i cant tell, but ultimately i still believe she is leaning town at the moment

[duppin]

you know actually ill get back to this later, i wanted to ISO her again but theres so many posts so ill do it later and i dont have time for that right now

[duppin]

Duppin attention is interesting, I thought he had townie vibes earlier but I guess there are some questions worth asking.

@duppin

-If you agreed with sus!redados why not join the wagon for pressure when it became clear saudade would not be returning any time soon?

Because he is already being pushed so I'd rather have my vote on Saudade to keep pressure on him. I am well aware he said he would be V/LA for 3 days but it ended up being longer.
I understand that he has some IRL stuff to deal with and I hope everything is fine, but I also hope he manages to return before he is replaced since a replacement would most likely result in me not gaining much information from the slot this day.

-Are you aware (1404) that Jester floated the exact same theory when they first replaced out?

No I was not actually but i dont really think it means anything whatsoever unless he actually wants to pursue it which I'd be opposed to. I just brought it up for cheap postgame cred in case it is what happened. I am curious though, what exactly was the point of this question?

-Do you consider "he was actively trying to solve the game when he could have easily just camped his vote" to be a still accurate assessment of bugspray?

i've pinged them out a couple of times now asking for them to follow up on their notes. I still think what they did was a pretty big towntell though, but I will gladly admit that they have dropped a bit and if it continues like this I will definitely revaluate my read on them day 2.
But for day 1 I have no interest in pushing them.

duppin. you need to explain your reads. you stated some reads but i have no idea why you believe anything that you say you believe.

hm see I have explained all of the reads I have given. I was under the impression that if you were town you reaching out to me was because you were trying to solve my slot, but the impression I am getting is that you have not tried to ISO me and you don't seem to be reading what I am saying either, so I'm beginning to question your motivation actually

this is a straight up lie. you have not explained your reasons for scumreading or townreading anyone. ive asked you to do so repeatedly and you keep deflecting and asking me questions. CITE SPECIFIC POSTS THAT MADE YOU SCUMREAD SOMEONE. i dont care who. just go through an ISO of someone you scumread and explain which posts made you scumread them. stating a scumread is not the same as explaining it. theres 0 game-advancing content coming from you.

I am not sure why you believe it is a straight up lie, it is relatively simple to ISO me to confirm it is not a lie. I have given an explanation for all of my reads including the players I found suspicious.
Whether you approve or disapprove of my reasoning is up to you, but claiming I have not given an explanation is factually wrong.

duppin. you need to explain your reads. you stated some reads but i have no idea why you believe anything that you say you believe.

hm see I have explained all of the reads I have given. I was under the impression that if you were town you reaching out to me was because you were trying to solve my slot, but the impression I am getting is that you have not tried to ISO me and you don't seem to be reading what I am saying either, so I'm beginning to question your motivation actually

this is a straight up lie. you have not explained your reasons for scumreading or townreading anyone. ive asked you to do so repeatedly and you keep deflecting and asking me questions. CITE SPECIFIC POSTS THAT MADE YOU SCUMREAD SOMEONE. i dont care who. just go through an ISO of someone you scumread and explain which posts made you scumread them. stating a scumread is not the same as explaining it. theres 0 game-advancing content coming from you.

There is no lie here and it is also relatively simple to ISO me to confirm it is not a lie. I have given an explanation for all of my reads including the players I found suspicious.
Whether you approve or disapprove of my reasoning is up to you, but claiming I have not given an explanation is factually wrong.

duppin is 90% scum here.

well your math seems to be a bit off as I am 100% town

can someone explain to me how any of the scumreads from duppin are remotely justified or reasonable? they are super duper weak.

Now see this is where it gets a bit more interesting, because from this point you change your push. Initially you said I provided no explanation for my reads at all even when I did, but from this point you seem to be changing the angle and instead claim that my scumreads are not reasonable. See this is a totally different thing and I think this is a much more valid opinion for you have rather than just calling me a liar. Also by the way if you are town I'd just like to point out you are being rather hypocritical when you claim I have been deflecting and so on (which I have not) when you have been avoiding a lot of questions and I had to ask you multiple times before you would even acknowledge the question. The only reason I mention this is that if you are town then I think it is odd for you to find something suspicious that you do so yourself - perhaps in the sense that it does not seem logical to conclude something that you do yourself as town is coming from a scum perspective if someone else does it. However I will stand by my statement that I did not avoid your deflect any of your questions and I will gladly challenge your claim so feel free to point out where I did that.

Anyway back on topic the fact that you change your push here seems to back up my earlier impression that you hadn't really read my posts properly or attempted to ISO me when you initially started pushing on me.
If you think my reasoning for my scumreads are weak that's fair, it is what it is I am not really looking for approval especially not for day 1 scum reads. Saying I have not explained them however is just not true.

[duppin]

also and this is such a garbage read but i just cant help myself and no one should try to pursue it but part of me can't help but wonder if jackson and mini replaced out because one of them accidently learned the others alignment in which case it would make sense if they already replaced out, but i just think it would be even more likely if the alignment was scum. but yeah this is just a non sense theory for post game

This post.

ok good thats a strange post but to me its just ??
that doesnt help me sort duppin without more context. does that ping you one way or another? if so, why?

The logic definitely makes sense to me but yes we aren't supposed to talk about it so lets just drop this point.

what do you think of duppin's scumreads?

Idk, he seems to be voting Saudade mainly so there's not much to say about it.

I agree. I see some soft tunneling from him on Saudade which is a bit strange. Saudade has posted so few posts and duping kinda just strikes me as a player that saw saudade as a lil sus or easy limbait(depending on alignment) and basically skimmed everything else and decided to cling to saudade and not let go for the life of him.

When Saudade started posting several players called him out for how good he was and someone said this was his town meta etc but I thought he was suspicious and questioned him. I have never played with him before so what makes you form the conclusion that I would see him as an easy lynch at that point? Mind you this was before he went V/LA

[duppin]

by the way i genuinely think the spam in this game has been a bit too much but perhaps thats just me, but keep in mind this is with 1 player being vl/a, 1 replacement and 1 slot still waiting to be replaced

[duppin]

i mean its fine and i definitely prefer high activity games over low activity games, my only concern is that it makes it difficult to keep up if you get busy or whatnot, like its going to be a pain for Saudade to catch up and also for whoever replaces mini

[duppin]

My vote was parked there because I expected him to show up after the V/LA ended and still kind of hope for him to show up. Just because he has been V/LA does not mean I do not want to pressure his slot.

In hindsight I definitely agree I could have pursued different angles, but my other scumread was already the leading wagon at that point so.
As for anyone else doing something scummy - sure they have, which is why I have questioned them on it. I have also gained more townreads as the game has progressed which I am perfectly content with for a day 1 especially one this spammy

[duppin]

but you did change your tune, I don't really understand how you can deny that. Whether it was intentional or not, you certainly did. You initially claimed I did not explain any of my reads at all and then later when you (presumely) read my post again since you quoted it you changed it to my scumreads not being reasonable.

Also which questions have I ignored? I have responded to all of your posts. I have also explained why I find Saudade suspicious which you would not if you had ISOed me.
My impression was that Saudade was trying to get by with his apparent reputation by just posting to be heard rather than actually trying to solve the game

[duppin]

My vote was parked there because I expected him to show up after the V/LA ended and still kind of hope for him to show up. Just because he has been V/LA does not mean I do not want to pressure his slot.

In hindsight I definitely agree I could have pursued different angles, but my other scumread was already the leading wagon at that point so.
As for anyone else doing something scummy - sure they have, which is why I have questioned them on it. I have also gained more townreads as the game has progressed which I am perfectly content with for a day 1 especially one this spammy

ok, pick someone else you scumread and scumcase them.

But these are my scumreads. Why should I force scumreads?

but you did change your tune, I don't really understand how you can deny that. Whether it was intentional or not, you certainly did. You initially claimed I did not explain any of my reads at all and then later when you (presumely) read my post again since you quoted it you changed it to my scumreads not being reasonable.

Also which questions have I ignored? I have responded to all of your posts. I have also explained why I find Saudade suspicious which you would not if you had ISOed me.
My impression was that Saudade was trying to get by with his apparent reputation by just posting to be heard rather than actually trying to solve the game

there is NO REASONING for any of your scumreads, so they are UNREASONABLE. i keep asking you to provide reasons because there ARENT ANY REASONS

But there are reasons. You disliking the reasons does not mean there aren't reasons.

[duppin]

I never said at any point that my scumread on Saudade had to do with him being afk. See this is why I am really confused as to why you do not just ISO me.

I admitted when I engaged Saudade that my read on him might be influenced by the players hyping him up yes but my read on him was that he was posting to be heard rather than to gamesolve. To me it felt like he was trying to play very safe and I thought it was really odd how he on one hand also hyped his own "god reads" yet on the other hand also pushed the "no reads this early" - and I am perfectly aware that it is on one hand a reasonable enough statement to not have good reads early on, but it felt off to me plus his posts overall felt like he just wanted to make sure people noticed him which I think is scummy. My first idea was to give him some time to see what he would do but then out of nowhere he engaged Norwee and Norwee reacted really well in my opinion and gave me a townread on him plus he voted on Saudade and then I was tempted to join the wagon to see what Saudade would do so I joined. Shortly after that he went V/LA. So ultimately nothing has happened since to really sway my initial impressions of him.

The other scumread I gave early on was on Redados. I have also explained my reasoning for this several times.
I think it would be easiest to refer to this post actually since this was the gist of it:

duppin what other reads do you have

i don't really concur with your red read, fwiw he seems pretty disagreeable by thinking that the game is moving in a direction he dislikes

yes but just complaining about the state and not attempting to move it in a direction is suspicious to me. he seems to be complaining about the game state and being very careful with his reads (he essentially ended up only giving town reads) which to me indicate is trying to avoid confrontation while still appearing active. I am perfectly aware it might be too early to tell but that is the impression I am left with

As I said when I gave my reads before he hasn't really done much to change my mind. No matter what his alignment is I believe he is too caught up on Noora's push on him.
What I will say though is that I am actually a bit surprised with his latest posts as I did not expect him to defend me. If he is scum it seems more logical for him to at least try to discredit me a little bit since I called him scummy.

[duppin]

I expected him to return when his V/LA ended. I am not trying to blame him as I understand that he had some irl things to deal with and that is obviously more important.

[duppin]

I never SRed him in the first place and its just annoying me that people are continuing to sus him cuz there's no point. Theres is ZERO WAY we will get a saudade lim today. Why not put that away for a bit and bring it back when he gets back? Discussing him now is a terrible idea and there's no point

i mean i kind of get your point but i also kind of disagree with the sentiment as it would be easy to just go v/la to avoid pressure as scum then (obviously not what Saudade did, just saying)

[duppin]

I never said at any point that my scumread on Saudade had to do with him being afk. See this is why I am really confused as to why you do not just ISO me.

I admitted when I engaged Saudade that my read on him might be influenced by the players hyping him up yes but my read on him was that he was posting to be heard rather than to gamesolve. To me it felt like he was trying to play very safe and I thought it was really odd how he on one hand also hyped his own "god reads" yet on the other hand also pushed the "no reads this early" - and I am perfectly aware that it is on one hand a reasonable enough statement to not have good reads early on, but it felt off to me plus his posts overall felt like he just wanted to make sure people noticed him which I think is scummy. My first idea was to give him some time to see what he would do but then out of nowhere he engaged Norwee and Norwee reacted really well in my opinion and gave me a townread on him plus he voted on Saudade and then I was tempted to join the wagon to see what Saudade would do so I joined. Shortly after that he went V/LA. So ultimately nothing has happened since to really sway my initial impressions of him.

The other scumread I gave early on was on Redados. I have also explained my reasoning for this several times.
I think it would be easiest to refer to this post actually since this was the gist of it:

duppin what other reads do you have

i don't really concur with your red read, fwiw he seems pretty disagreeable by thinking that the game is moving in a direction he dislikes

yes but just complaining about the state and not attempting to move it in a direction is suspicious to me. he seems to be complaining about the game state and being very careful with his reads (he essentially ended up only giving town reads) which to me indicate is trying to avoid confrontation while still appearing active. I am perfectly aware it might be too early to tell but that is the impression I am left with

As I said when I gave my reads before he hasn't really done much to change my mind. No matter what his alignment is I believe he is too caught up on Noora's push on him.
What I will say though is that I am actually a bit surprised with his latest posts as I did not expect him to defend me. If he is scum it seems more logical for him to at least try to discredit me a little bit since I called him scummy.

point to specific posts where redados posted in a way that intentionally didnt advance the gamestate. why is it scummy rather than just useless? you essentially have only given townreads. getting a scumread from you is like pulling teeth. why not move your vote of saudade? its useless there? can you point to specific instances where saudade is "playing it safe"? again, why are these scummy rather than NAI?

No it is not like pulling a teeth, because I have explained the read several times and have been very open about it.
Also could you just ISO me already. I engage both of the players.

[duppin]

I never SRed him in the first place and its just annoying me that people are continuing to sus him cuz there's no point. Theres is ZERO WAY we will get a saudade lim today. Why not put that away for a bit and bring it back when he gets back? Discussing him now is a terrible idea and there's no point

i mean i kind of get your point but i also kind of disagree with the sentiment as it would be easy to just go v/la to avoid pressure as scum then (obviously not what Saudade did, just saying)

it seems pretty clear that saudade gets a pass for inactivity here. i think we all also had scumpings before that, but it behooves us to wait for saudade to return or get replaced before doing anything. voteparking isnt helpful.

what makes you think all had it? several people have thrown out a townread on him actually

[duppin]

yes as I just said before you can argue that my vote is useless because at the moment it doesn't do anything. my only argument to that would be that it is only useless because Saudade extended his v/la. (once again this almost sounds like I am blaming him but that is really not my intention, I really hope all is well).

the thing is my only other scumread was the other leading wagon at the time at least, although I think he still is? so I just dont see me moving my vote to him at that point would be very useful either actually. In fact to me it kind of made me feel like I could keep my vote on Saudade.

I do think it is wrong to suggest i was tunneling him though, i am still trying to question and solve other slots

[duppin]

Tayl0r I am unsure as to why you refuse to ISO me but;

595
597
601
625
this is when redados starts to respond:
747
751
756
758
873

[duppin]

Tayl0r by the way are you an alt or a new player?

[duppin]

As I said when I gave my reads before he hasn't really done much to change my mind. No matter what his alignment is I believe he is too caught up on Noora's push on him.
What I will say though is that I am actually a bit surprised with his latest posts as I did not expect him to defend me. If he is scum it seems more logical for him to at least try to discredit me a little bit since I called him scummy.

My current limpool is {noraa, unowen, mundivore, shelly} although I'll probably have to widen that to avoid a mislim of course.

Where is bugspray?

Where is mundivore?? Mundivore has done very little hunting today and has stayed mostly under the radar. VOTE: Mundivore

wtf? Why are u voting a really inactive slot now?
VOTE: Redados
ur so scummy its unbelievable

Why do you think that's a scummy thing to do?

[duppin]

noraa I feel like I can't win with you.

scum slip. No shit scum!redados can't win with me. I'm SRing u so hard.

As I said when I gave my reads before he hasn't really done much to change my mind. No matter what his alignment is I believe he is too caught up on Noora's push on him.
What I will say though is that I am actually a bit surprised with his latest posts as I did not expect him to defend me. If he is scum it seems more logical for him to at least try to discredit me a little bit since I called him scummy.

My current limpool is {noraa, unowen, mundivore, shelly} although I'll probably have to widen that to avoid a mislim of course.

Where is bugspray?

Where is mundivore?? Mundivore has done very little hunting today and has stayed mostly under the radar. VOTE: Mundivore

wtf? Why are u voting a really inactive slot now?
VOTE: Redados
ur so scummy its unbelievable

Why do you think that's a scummy thing to do?

Lurkers/less active players are easy to get mislims on

Do you believe Mundivore is town?

[duppin]

but noraa do you believe mundivore is town?

[duppin]

i see. Out of curiosity if it was someone other than Redados who voted, would you still have concluded it was an attempt at pushing a mislynch rightaway or is this assumption based on your read on Redados?

[duppin]

yes but just complaining about the state and not attempting to move it in a direction is suspicious to me. he seems to be complaining about the game state and being very careful with his reads (he essentially ended up only giving town reads) which to me indicate is trying to avoid confrontation while still appearing active. I am perfectly aware it might be too early to tell but that is the impression I am left with

redados SR'd saude, didnt he?

but you've made your point, I'll sort redados later as I have experience with them, for now I want to sort you + Grendel first

But he did absolutely nothing with it. He did not try to engage anyone or push which lead to me thinking he is trying to avoid confrontation.

and this is kinda fair, but redados has since engaged with people and done some good stuff. you havent. and you havent really pushed anyone except for the eight posts you pointed out to me, of which half were not doing anything except repeating/not really pressuring but just pointing stuff out with surface-level analysis. we are now 50 pages into the game and you've expressed one scumread based on meta that other people presented, and one scum read based on really weak arguments that you havent done much to follow up on and havent done much with. I cant follow your progessions at all, and i find it hard to believe that your only scumreads are an inactive player based on a sheeped meta-read and a weak "you havent done enough solving" argument that id say isnt even true anymore.

What do you mean? Which one of my scumreads do you believe is based on base that other people have presented? Neither the redados nor the Saudade read is based on their meta in fact I mentioned I am very confused about the meta reads on Saudade because some people claim it is his town meta whereas others claim it is a scumtell for him.

As for Redados could you elaborate on your read on him? you claim he has since done some good stuff but what exactly are you referring to?

Yes I have only given 2 more solid scumreads, do you believe that is a scumtell? If so then I expect you to be more consistent with it. I have also found some townreads I feel rather strong about it for whatever that is worth and I am perfectly fine with that on day 1.

Tayl0r by the way are you an alt or a new player?

im not an alt.

i see. the reason i ask is because i initially assumed you were an alt when you replaced in due to the name but the way you have approached some of his has just felt a bit off to me. Your push on me feels like you're being overeager which is something I'd consider more likely to be a towntell for a new player simply because to me it kind of comes across as you legitimately believing you caught on to something and is frustrated when you do not get the support you feel you should get. However I would like to read some of your scum games actually, mind linking me to your latest?

Also what I will say if you're town then you really need to take a step back and properly evaluate me You are clearly tunneling and it seems pretty obvious at this point that you had not ISO'ed me when you initially tried to push on me. You also seem busier trying to look for support rather than trying to engage with me and all of this just seems to suggest you have already made up your mind.
If you're scum then your push is really bad as well for what it is worth since getting me mislynched would most likely result in a trade with the way you approached it and I'd be fine with that trade.

yes but just complaining about the state and not attempting to move it in a direction is suspicious to me. he seems to be complaining about the game state and being very careful with his reads (he essentially ended up only giving town reads) which to me indicate is trying to avoid confrontation while still appearing active. I am perfectly aware it might be too early to tell but that is the impression I am left with

redados SR'd saude, didnt he?

but you've made your point, I'll sort redados later as I have experience with them, for now I want to sort you + Grendel first

But he did absolutely nothing with it. He did not try to engage anyone or push which lead to me thinking he is trying to avoid confrontation.

and this is kinda fair, but redados has since engaged with people and done some good stuff. you havent. and you havent really pushed anyone except for the eight posts you pointed out to me, of which half were not doing anything except repeating/not really pressuring but just pointing stuff out with surface-level analysis. we are now 50 pages into the game and you've expressed one scumread based on meta that other people presented, and one scum read based on really weak arguments that you havent done much to follow up on and havent done much with. I cant follow your progessions at all, and i find it hard to believe that your only scumreads are an inactive player based on a sheeped meta-read and a weak "you havent done enough solving" argument that id say isnt even true anymore.

also it doesnt seem like your reads have developed in the past 30 pages, which makes it increasingly likely that you just picked a couple people to scumread and stuck with it, which is what scum sometimes do

Sure and sometimes scum don't do it, are you really trying to push a scum might sometimes do X narrative?
In either case my reads have developed, like bugspray dropped a bit and I got townlean on shelly etc, although yeah the read on Saudade didn't change for obvious reasons. Well actually the one thing that I was a bit skeptical about was the random townreads on him but I need more info to conclude anything from them. I'd say if Mundivore is scum then I do not believe Saudade is with them simply because the townread+vote thing Mundivore did to Saudade is just so weird.
PlusJOYED however still hasn't explained his apparent meta read on Saudade yet even though he has been asked to. As I have mentioned before I have a hard time believing a town would have a townread on Saudade at this point, I'd expect most to not really have a read on him at all.

Also who cares if reads don't develop in the past X amount of pages if people do a lot of non alignment indicative stuff? I don't how to read all the spammy OMGUS meta reads people are throwing at each other.
Anyway as I said reads have developed. First of all regarding you I initially thought you were an alt when you replaced in which was why I initially assumed your push was you trying to test me or something but the way your push evolved and the changes you made me question that, so now that I know that you are not an alt your push on me strikes me a little more as an overeager new player which I can't help but feel is a slight town tell, however I would really like to read your latest scumgame first + I think it is a bad push for you to do as scum simply because the way you did it means you would most likely end up getting traded if you managed to mislynch me.
Redados recent defense of me threw me off a bit as I think that would be a mistake to do if he was scum given my read on him and the pressure on him

Anyway:

@PlusJOYED

could you please elaborate on your meta read on Saudade already?

@shelly

could you elaborate a bit on why you think there has to be a scum between me and Tayl0r?

[duppin]

anyway, here is the case:

duppin has not had any read progression in 50 pages now.

That is not true though. Examples would be bugs dropping, shelly becoming a townread, redados now giving off town vibes with the sudden defense of me, suspicious of the players giving a townread on Saudade since I do not believe town would have that read, I can kind of buy Mundivores explanation but Plus still has not explained his meta read yet, trying to solve your slot as well since you are trying to push me and now at the moment leaning more towards overeager town but unsure about your scumrange so want to read scumgame

duppin cannot point to specific posts that make him scumread him. after being pressed for an extended period duppin pointed to one post where there was a decent level of engagement with a slot he says he scumreads. one post.

i didn't link to one post? i linked to several and I pointed out that i had interacted with both of the players i called out, you kept saying i couldnt and that i didnt explain any of my reads and so on, i told you that you could just ISO me, you then said I was deflecting and whatnot lol. also this is just a bad read in general since reads dont have to be based on a specific post per say eg UNOwen is pushing on redados not for what he is doing but for what he does not think he is doing. In fact and this is quite ironic it comes across as you pushing on me not for what I have said but for what you believe i havent said. That was obviously just an example, read can also be based on overall tone and whatever and as for redados i clearly pointed out the posts though.

duppin's vote has been parked on a slot who is inactive for irl reasons and has since done almost nothing to solve.

vote has been parked true that is fair criticism but if he had showed up after his v/la then this would never have been an issue, nonetheless you dont have to vote on someone to try to solve their slot, i am definitely trying to solve other slots and have been getting townreads.

duppin is very wishy-washy in reads, and seems capable basically of stating a townread-ish, but cant justify scumreads. that sort of inability to scumhunt is generally a sign that the person is scum, since scum have difficulty scumhunting.

i have justified all of my scumreads, you are free to explain exactly what part of my logic it is that you disagree with if you want to discuss that. I do not think i am very wishy-washy in my reads either, but i am not going to say stuff like someone is 90% scum on day 1 when i can't even bother to ISO them to be honest.

when pressed to produce content and reads, duppin points exclusively to posts he has already made, which suggests that duppin is unable to engage critically with the game and that he is concerned with not contradicting himself. if his scumreads were genuine he would be able to give off-the-cuff reads and be more spontaneous.

not really? I explained my reads to noora when asked and then you asked me about reads that i had previously given and i pointed out that these were already explained so you could just iso them. I don't think there is anything that suggests i am unable to engage critically with the game I also dont see how you conclude that this would mean i would be concered with not contradicting myself, not like it would be difficult for me to just repeat my previous reads.

all of these are things that are not only anti-town and bad, but more than likely come from a scum mindset. theres no genuine scumhunting. if hes town he really needs to step it up, but the way hes been attempting to deflect my pressure suggests that he isnt engaging with me in good faith.

you can complain about my playstyle if you wish to do so, but let's go over it:
first of all as i mentioned when i attempted to push a policy lynch on Jester, there is a big difference between something being anti-town and somethign being scummy. So let's start with anti town, you can argue that me trying to policy lynch Jester based on nothing but the selfvote is anti town in case Jester is town, you can also argue that me keeping my vote on Saudade is anti town in the sense that he is missing so the vote itself is useless as long as he is V/LA. However you have failed to explain why you think my vote on Saudade is scummy and why it is "more likely to come from a scum mindset".
What do you believe my motivation for scum would be to keep my vote parked on him?

As for scumhunting there certainly is. I am not going to do a "lol this guy is 90% scum omg vote why is everyone ignoring me" day 1 no, but if you do not believe I am trying to solve slots then it is what it is, you can be bothered with my playstyle and I can call yours out for being bad as well, difference is i am not convinced yours is coming from a scum perspective.

You claim I am deflecting as I said earlier I will gladly challenge that claim, so please point out where you think I am deflecting? I am also baffled that you keep claiming that I have not been engaging you when I have acknowledged and responded to every single question.

and then theres the fact that no one has been willing to move their vote or get on board. if a townie is really really insistent on pressuring another town slot, usually scum are willing to hop on the wagon and see where it goes, because they dont have to lead the wagon and the fight is TvT. since i expressed my scumread on duppin a counterwagon has formed on me, but no one has moved to vote duppin. what does that tell you?

okay this is actually a really bad WIFOM read. First of all it is weird for you to expect scum to immediately jump in on a tvt wagon also it's rather funny how you on one hand are saying it's weird that scum would not jump in on a tvt yet also calling people out for voting on you - or does that read only apply if they side with you?
Also and this is just a general tip, if you want to call out wagons then name names. If you think I am scum, then who do you think my partners are that voted on you? What makes you believe it makes more sense for them to vote on you if they were partners with me rather than just jumping on of the current wagons?

[duppin]

@shelly could you elaborate a bit on why you think there has to be a scum between me and Tayl0r?

I scumread Taylor and I townread you.

If Taylor flips green, I am inclined to trust their read, since this whole thing feels off to me somehow. idrt you’re TvT’ing, the way Taylor hard tunnels you and ignores everything else is very scum indicative and I don’t think it’s scum theatre due to the genuineness of the whole argumentation

okay hm I actually dislike this post as it comes across as you trying to set up chainlynches

[duppin]

i see. Out of curiosity if it was someone other than Redados who voted, would you still have concluded it was an attempt at pushing a mislynch rightaway or is this assumption based on your read on Redados?

I would assume this for anyone that did this that I currently have even the slightest SR on.

this should indicate that it is not alignment indicative then. I think its perfectly valid to try to apply pressure to less active players

[duppin]

okay hm I actually dislike this post as it comes across as you trying to set up chainlynches

that’s the most horrific pagetop I’ve seen in a while

I mean, im doing associatives and is that a bad thing? no

actually concluding that a town flip from tayl0r would make me scum is pretty bad yes especially if you have a townread on me

[duppin]

sure its only natural to reconsider, just felt like you pushed the TvS angle a bit.

i think my problem i have is that i have a difficult time understanding why you think this is likely to be TvS. don't get me wrong i understand that you are scumreading tayl0r and townleaning on me but i am just a bit unsure as to why think our interactions indicate TvS. perhaps i am slightly biased since i am in the middle of it but yea i dont know

[duppin]

hm this feels rather weird to me. Tayl0r unless I misunderstood you claim to have a townread on me now but I am unsure as to why that is actually, could you elaborate?

[duppin]

it really really bothers me the way you dropped the scumread of me, but i am not convinced it is a scumtell.
I think the problem I have is that the timing of it makes me question your motivation for dropping it

[duppin]

@davesaz could you tell me where you are at at the moment? i am well aware you have/had a lot of catching up to do, but would just like to hear some of your current thoughts as i have no idea where you are at

[duppin]

i am really not convinced tayl0r is scum, but i do really dislike her read progression on me. the change does not feel natural, but i am not entirely sure it is scum motivated.

personally I would really like to hear some more from some of the less active slots. I have kind of accepted that Saudade will most likely not be able to show up before deadline and I really hope all is well, but I would like to hear some more from specifically Mundivore and davesaz (although it might be unfair to put you in the less active players since you replaced into a shit ton of spam)

[duppin]

oh mundivore is here, i would really like you to go more in depth with your read on me. you claimed you were 90% confident that I was scum (whats up with the 90% reads this game?), yet you also seemed to imply you were unsure and would have to ISO me, so I would like to know where you are at now?

[duppin]

oh mundivore is here, i would really like you to go more in depth with your read on me. you claimed you were 90% confident that I was scum (whats up with the 90% reads this game?), yet you also seemed to imply you were unsure and would have to ISO me, so I would like to know where you are at now?

While I still feel like you're my most concrete scumread thus far, my confidence has dropped back down into the realm of relative ambivalence. I'm still building a scum-case because I think it might be interesting to have out there, but I'm looking over it and I'm not terribly convinced.

i see but even if you are not convinced by it i would still really like to hear it, it helps me get a read on you

[duppin]

not going to lie i kind wish you wouldve stayed on the other account as it makes it easier to iso you

[duppin]

actually Mundivore I know I asked you to present your case on me, but I would actually also like you to go over some of your other reads. I am mainly interested in your read on shelly and Redados as I am having a rather difficult time following your read on them

[duppin]

@mundivore do you think your case is going to be done before deadline?

@bugspray i was actually pretty surprised by that vote because to me it doesnt really align with the other reads youve posted, so could you elaborate?

[duppin]

Also I actually think UNOwen is town at this point

[duppin]

why would you put out a naked vote then?

[duppin]

please dont hammer yet

[duppin]

actually hm it kind of feels to me like tayl0r has accepted she is getting limmed

[duppin]

tayl0r if youre town then why are you not fighting this more? where is the eagerness from when you pushed me?

[duppin]

i am not convinced by the wagon on taylor because i think her approach could be explained by her being an overeager town however her read progression looks really bad at the moment but could be due to her just not explaining it properly plus her lack of defense now makes me actually feel better about the wagon

[duppin]

honestly i would still like to hear from mundivore and plus before hammering

[duppin]

At the moment I believe that bugspray, Jester, Norwee and UNOwen are all town. Actually I am kind of feeling the most confident about my UNOwen read at the moment simply because I feel his thoughtprocess is so damn town. If he is scum I think he is playing a really good game so far

[duppin]

At the moment I believe that bugspray, Jester, Norwee and UNOwen are all town.

Idk about UNowen yet, but the rest. Sure.

that's fair, in my opinion his ISO is really town. The way his reads has progressed and I (and admittedly this might be slightly biased) thought the way he evaluated my slot was really genuine

[duppin]

and i intent to hammer, but would still like hear from mundivore and plus

[duppin]

i have no intention of quickhammering, ill respond to all of your posts as soon as possible probably in 30 min or so

[duppin]

tayl0r i just read your claim and while i am not entirely sure i believe it, it is definitely enough for me to not want to lim you. would you still like me to respond to your posts?

[duppin]

the good news for me is that norwee's counterclaim makes norwee a bigger target for the night kill than myself

Not sure i get your logic here.

if tayl0r is town i dont think we should talk about this actually. if she isnt then i hope people understands what it means if you die

[duppin]

actually hm it kind of feels to me like tayl0r has accepted she is getting limmed

what gives you that impression?

well it is kinda of related to this post:

tayl0r if youre town then why are you not fighting this more? where is the eagerness from when you pushed me?

sometimes i have other things to do.

i got the impression due to a lack of fire for the lack of a better word from you after it looked very likely you were going to be limmed. You being busy is definitely a possibility that could explain this, but i mean that does not mean this was not the impression i was left with

i am not convinced by the wagon on taylor because i think her approach could be explained by her being an overeager town however her read progression looks really bad at the moment but could be due to her just not explaining it properly plus her lack of defense now makes me actually feel better about the wagon

theres nothing to defend because the case on me is shit. like can someone state a coherent case against me other than "bad vibes"

people literally always scumread me.

i feel like i have defended myself against everything norwee said. norwee is contradicting himself bigtime with the case against me.

i can only speak for myself, but i have been saying for a long time that your push one me felt more like an overeager town, but i also made it clear that your read progression on me made no sense and i still cant make sense of it. as i said it is possible you simply didnt explain it properly, but point still stands. I was not a fan of how you did a 180 on me without acknowledging what i said. To me it felt like a really odd way to drop your push.

At the moment I believe that bugspray, Jester, Norwee and UNOwen are all town. Actually I am kind of feeling the most confident about my UNOwen read at the moment simply because I feel his thoughtprocess is so damn town. If he is scum I think he is playing a really good game so far

why is norwee town?

i generally think his response to all the pushes on him has been really good. I mentioned earlier that I really liked his response to Saudade calling him out which was one of the reasons I voted with him.
To me he comes across as really genuine. I like how he evaluated your push on me, did nto seem like there was any hidden agendas or anything. He does not really seem to be concerned I suppose with the pressure on him or with doing something that could potentially look suspicious. So yes I feel rather strongly about him being town actually.

[duppin]

im going to do this for now actually
VOTE: PlusJOYED

[duppin]

Plus I have already explained why I am suspicious of your slot and I am really surprised that there isn't a single vote on you. I hate to put this read but you have pretty much disappeared the closer we got to deadline even though you are still active on the site

[duppin]

it does not mean youre scum, but it certainly does not make me feel better about your slot so please chime in as soon as possible

[duppin]

VOTE: plusjoyed

what do you guys have against the mundivore wagon?

i have nothing against it, im still waiting for them to present their read on me. I am perfectly fine with them being a viable wagon at this point

[duppin]

Is it bad that I still want to lim that slot?

[duppin]

@mundivore do you think your case is going to be done before deadline?

Unlikely, lol. Things are a little hectic for me IRL, and I'm not going to be satisfied with my work unless it becomes a wall of text.

okay I must admit that is a bit disappointing, when you voted on me i was definitely a viable wagon and we are close to the deadline so if you are town i think it's a little disappointing you voted on me, said you were very confident that i was scum without apparently having a case on me. I understand that you might be busy in real life but if you are town i really need you to give me something more concrete because your slot is a massive question mark at this point.

who do you want to lim at this point? Am I still your top scum?

[duppin]

the TvS read is so weird to me on day 1. what makes you believe that discussion is more likely to be TvS? you said the same about me and tayl0rs discussion. Like I understand having an independent scumread on someone, but I am not sure I really follow the logic that any of these day 1 discussions are more likely to be town vs scum

[duppin]

so battle mage are you still around?

[duppin]

i apologise in advance for quoting the big wall of text

i tried to case duppin, but too many scummy posts to count. like, read his bloody ISO for goodness sake. If you can't see

duppin is obvscum

, no amount of coaching from me is gonna help you like every post oozes it.

i'll be honest scumtells and a couple other randoms

i believe he said he was from another site but yes i think it is fairly obvious it is an alt and most likely someone from MS, but i dont think that is a reason for me to be more open to the idea of selfvoting

to be honest

I'm semi-upset that we're on page 15 and it feels like we just left RVS. Not cool.

i have to admit

that i really dislike this post. also credited Shelly for finally moving the game out of rvs in 154, i can appreciate the fact that perhaps the game didn't move in the direction you wanted but yeah.
overall you come across as really careful to me which i find suspicious

hm

I am going to be honest

Noraa, if you are town you are mislynch bait.

60% of your posts are fluff and the rest of your play is just reactionary which I'd normally consider to be a scumtell. You're not really doing anything proactive whatsoever, the readlist you just gave before gives the impression you're not really trying to figure out peoples alignment (like mixing me and bugspray up at this point is really weird to me). It doesnt really feel like youre putting in an effort to solve peoples alignment, however I am not convinced you are scum at all as this could indeed just come from a new player as well but yea if you are town then I sincerely hope you can be a bit more proactive

will tentatively jump on duppin wagon since after revisiting their ISO didn’t look very good. they’re a big null and I want to pressure them

your progression on me is really difficult to follow

to be honest

, but i will bite. Why do you think my ISO looks bad?

jester + duppin role fishing scum?

I explicitly softed hard that I was an Informed Townie to find those ROLEFISHERS

in all honestness it’s just a play style choice. jesters right, im trying to be more assertive to push my reads harder and be more convincing as town?

no matter what your alignment is I really think you need to drop the role fishing angle because no one talked about roles until you brought it up the second time i asked you if you were going to follow up on your statement since you said you would do so. you were the first and only one to indirectly paint yourself as a role, i have not asked for your role at any point all I did was ask you if you were going to follow up on your claim saying that your confidence had nothing to do with your alignment which to me indicated that it had nothing to do with your role either, so i have no idea how you could reach the conclusion it could be rolefishing the second time

to be honest

.

oh you said it was a playstyle choice. if that is the case then I think this was a weird play

to be honest

honestly i would

still like to hear from mundivore and plus before hammering

okay i thought this was a pretty funny read actually and i dont mean that in a condescending way, i just remember someone else pointing out my usage of to be honest a while ago.
anyway nonetheless it is a bad read though, as all it would be really easy for you to look up my games and see its just the way i type and has nothing to do with alignment, but ill even go further and say i kind of doubt that this is alignment indicative for anyone. out of curiousity , could you link to games where you have caught scum with this since you seem to suggest you have done so before.

tayl0r i just read your claim and while i am not entirely sure i believe it, it is definitely enough for me to not want to lim you. would you still like me to respond to your posts?

yuck, keeping your options open to elim a town PR? gross[/quote]
how am I keeping my options open by saying I do not want to lim her slot?

i have no intention of quickhammering, ill respond to all of your posts as soon as possible probably in 30 min or so

LAMIST

i mean sure you could maybe argue for this if you ignore the context. it was a response to tayl0r saying people to let her speak before hammering in 2110.

by the way

i genuinely think

the spam in this game has been a bit too much but perhaps thats just me, but keep in mind this is with 1 player being vl/a, 1 replacement and 1 slot still waiting to be replaced

I decided to go ISO Jester one more time.
I do

actually

believe he is town. I absolutely hate his self voting and I hope he stops doing it, but I am not interested in creating unnecessary distractions by pushing a policy lynch apparently no one else agrees with when I believe the player is most likely town.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Saduade

oh thats tempting actually

i have absolutely no idea what you think this is though

[duppin]

I am not even sure how to respond to this actually. Your "case" on me is based on something that is very easy to verify I do as either alignment. The fact that you are tunneling on it is so weird to me.

[duppin]

could i make you a deal that if duppin flips town today, i promise you can flip me tomorrow?

wait what if you are town then this is a ridiculous thing to say, since from your point of view you should know that you are town so even if you mislim to me you should not just accept being limmed the next day for being wrong when your case is so weak, makes no sense to do such a play on day 1.

im actually considering almost agreeing to this if everyone goes along with it simply because either you are scum which is great or you are town doing an absolutely awful play which I kind of would like to see being punished. but no really if you do end up limming me today i dont want people to automatically lim you for being wrong, i only want them to lim you if they find you scummy

[duppin]

Duppin, is BM scum or town.

well he claims to be a pr that can confirm himself which i am unsure what to think of. its a very vague claim and i am unsure as to what he means with confirming himself

i think his entrance is scummy. ignoring his scumread on me, his reads are still completely different to mine so if he is town it means one of us is reading the game completely wrong and i am obviously leaning more on him being wrong in that case due to the fact that he just replaced in and that could explain his lackluster reads plus the fact that i am his topscum which i know is wrong.
I was considering that he was perhaps trying to do some odd reaction test but he seems really dedicated to this so i find that hard to believe at this point.

i think the slot is pretty scummy, but on the off chance he is a town pr and one that can prove himself i have a hard time justifying a vote on him day 1

[duppin]

Battle Mage I would like you to make an actual case on me. You claimed I am "the scummiest slot ever" so I imagine it should be relatively easy for you, the thing is im not getting anything from you when you just trying to push a weird "saying honestly = scum" read that is very easy to prove is factually wrong

[duppin]

hi Duppin, I don't have much time atm, but just to conclude with a couple things:

1. From my early impressions, I respect you as a player regardless of what you flip, and don't think you've played badly here.
2. I think the points you have made above are broadly fair, and I'm not going to pick them apart with a fine toothcomb.
3. My reasons for suspecting you are much more than I've posted in thread, but I don't want to over-effort this. People will come to their own views.

But see the issue with you not providing any reasoning besides a meta read that has already been proven to be wrong, people have already pushed on me several times today making up their opinion on my slot, so if you are town why would they from your point of view change their opinion just because of a wrong meta read? (also if you are town and you end up mislimming me today you probably need to look at people being swayed by this since it is proven to be wrong)

4. I'm going to try and elim you today, as my gut is you are scum. It's not a personal thing.

and that is another issue - if you are so confident I am scum why are would you not try to present a proper case on me to lim me? i dont think your attitude really lines up with your apparent read on me

[duppin]

did you want to do a final readslist beforehand? - if you flip town and I'm around tomorrow, I commit to giving it due consideration.

no not really, not because i dont want to but more so because my reads would really depend on how this goes down. As stated above if I get mislynched due to a player refusing to present an actual case and instead going with a meta read that another player has already proven is wrong, then it does not seem reasonable to me that town would be swayed by it (well if they do then that's really poor of them), id reckon it is more likely scum would.

i understand there is some slight bias in that but i think the logic is relatively easy to understand though. if a player already has a town read on me it does not make sense for them to do a 180 on me because a player says he has meta read that is easy to verify, would you not agree? hence why I think it is questionable of you to not present a case if you are town and really believe i am scum

[duppin]

VOTE: Duppin
Well the spotlight is now on you.

Looking forward to an response.

actually I had not even noticed you had voted on me yet, so could you explain this? you townread me and scumread his slot, he presents a meta read on me that you refute yet you still vote me

[duppin]

I am hereby claiming a

confirmable town power role

. I.e. I can mechanically confirm myself as town.

So yeah, elimming me today would be....very dumb.

Dude there's like 2 days till deadline. we need a consensus. A duppin elim is that consensus. I'm completely tunnelled on you right now. If others have also had their suspicions, great, they can form their own opinion. I can understand you thinking I'm not trying hard but:

A. We're 100 pages deep on Day 1, and I just joined. Gimme a break!
B. Frequently people just sheep me regardless of how well I explain my reads.

If I'm wrong about you then that's my bad, but I have read your ISO in full, and it screams scum to me. That's my take, and in some ways, the beauty of replacements is that they can see things with a new perspective.

i even pointed it out yourself that i believe that if you are town then it is likely that the reason your readlist is so different compared to mine is because you replaced in.

i dont think any one of the things you just said is an excuse for not presenting a case whatsoever especially not if have read my ISO in full and it screams scum to you

[duppin]

how is it not a meta read? it is based on the assumption that the frequency of someone saying to be honest or variance of that is somehow supposed to be scummy. It is easy to prove that this has nothing to do with my alignments by looking up my games, I also asked you to please point out a game where this has ever been the point because I have a difficult time believing this is actually a read but you seem to suggest it is so i would just really like to see something because in that case at least your thoughtprocess seems to be backed up by something concrete.

but I have already shared my reads and listed my townblock but given that i think is suspicious for someone to do a 180 on me given the case you have presented i think it would be misleading for me to potentially townread a slot especially since im going to flip town if you mislim me

[duppin]

VOTE: Duppin
Well the spotlight is now on you.

Looking forward to an response.

actually I had not even noticed you had voted on me

yet

, so could you explain this? you townread me and scumread his slot, he presents a meta read on me that you refute yet you still vote me

yet? so you figured it was inevitable he would at some point then? fatalistic much!

Norweg is the sort of player who can adapt to what's going on around him.

no i didnt expect him to vote on me, i just hadnt noticed it yet

[duppin]

I am hereby claiming a

confirmable town power role

. I.e. I can mechanically confirm myself as town.

So yeah, elimming me today would be....very dumb.

Dude there's like 2 days till deadline. we need a consensus. A duppin elim is that consensus. I'm completely tunnelled on you right now. If others have also had their suspicions, great, they can form their own opinion. I can understand you thinking I'm not trying hard but:

A. We're 100 pages deep on Day 1, and I just joined. Gimme a break!
B. Frequently people just sheep me regardless of how well I explain my reads.

If I'm wrong about you then that's my bad, but I have read your ISO in full, and it screams scum to me. That's my take, and in some ways, the beauty of replacements is that they can see things with a new perspective.

i even pointed it out yourself that i believe that if you are town then it is likely that the reason your readlist is so different compared to mine is because you replaced in.

i dont think any one of the things you just said is an excuse for not presenting a case whatsoever especially not if have read my ISO in full and it screams scum to you

man, you havent even properly rebutted what I've said in the last couple pages.

you should be happy anyway that I'm not gunning you much harder. No value in continuing to bait me.

What do you mean? I clearly responded to your case on me

[duppin]

how is it not a meta read? it is based on the assumption that the frequency of someone saying to be honest or variance of that is somehow supposed to be scummy. It is easy to prove that this has nothing to do with my alignments by looking up my games, I also asked you to please point out a game where this has ever been the point because I have a difficult time believing this is actually a read but you seem to suggest it is so i would just really like to see something because in that case at least your thoughtprocess seems to be backed up by something concrete.

but I have already shared my reads and listed my townblock but given that i think is suspicious for someone to do a 180 on me given the case you have presented i think it would be misleading for me to potentially townread a slot especially since im going to flip town if you mislim me

You are mistaken. It's not a meta-read, because it has nothing to do with any of your other games. It's entirely contained within this thread. You're mistaking it with your own meta-defence, which is you claiming that your behaviour in this game is proportionate to your other games as town.

A meta read does not have to be directly related to a player though. However I also never claimed my behaviour in this game is proportionate to my other games (it is though), I claimed that me saying to be honest and stuff like that has nothing to do with my alignment. In fact I never said it had anything to do with my town game, I am saying it has nothing to do with my alignment whatsoever.

I haven't done any meta analysis of you, so I can neither confirm nor deny your claim. I've noted what Norweg said - even if he is correct, which he may not be, that doesn't invalidate my argument in and of itself. I'm not totally convinced you've done that analysis on yourself either, which would make me question why you would blindly rely on Norweg, and not make a value judgement about his alignment based on him defending you in this way. Although I can understand you being pre-occupied with self-defence right now.

I have not done the analysis but as I said earlier another player complained about me saying to be honest a lot before so I thought it was funny. I dont believe I was scumread for it in the game though I jsut think they complained about it

Remember, in mafia it isn't solely about the words you use, but their frequency and context, amongst other things. I'm very big on this sort of stuff, as you can probably tell. The "honest" stuff is just one example of a wider technique.

I mean sure but you probably have to revaluate that method then because if you are town then you are completely wrong. See I actually find this a bit frustrating because if you are town then I do not think you are being very unfair towards me. You clearly have no interest in solving my slot and I mean it is what it is you did admit that you are just tunneling me at this point but meh

[duppin]

VOTE: Duppin
Well the spotlight is now on you.

Looking forward to an response.

actually I had not even noticed you had voted on me yet, so could you explain this? you townread me and scumread his slot, he presents a meta read on me that you refute yet you still vote me

He claimed he would be confirmed PR. That puts the pressure on him, if you flip town and he can't prove his role tommorow he is likely confirmed scum.

which for you duppin, should make you suspect Norweg as wanting to setting up multiple mis-elims.

Do you though?

that's a weird question to ask since I was the one to question his vote on me after I had just stated that I do not think it makes sense for a town to be swayed by this is they had a townread on me. Obviously I think it is suspicious in fact I have been very vocal about being opposed to the idea of chainlims it's also why I dislike how some players "feel" that a discussion is more likely to be TvS over TvT on day 1 especially when it would result in them flipping on their reads

[duppin]

but I have already shared my reads and listed my townblock but given that i think is suspicious for someone to do a 180 on me given the case you have presented i think it would be misleading for me to potentially townread a slot especially since im going to flip town if you mislim me

i mean this feels like an argument for you scumreading Norweg, but you haven't been so bold....yet.

Because this is just happening and I prefer to give him the chance to explain himself

[duppin]

VOTE: Duppin
Well the spotlight is now on you.

Looking forward to an response.

actually I had not even noticed you had voted on me yet, so could you explain this? you townread me and scumread his slot, he presents a meta read on me that you refute yet you still vote me

He claimed he would be confirmed PR. That puts the pressure on him, if you flip town and he can't prove his role tommorow he is likely confirmed scum.

but we don't know how he could confirm himself. he can just claim he was roleblocked and perhaps it is even true. As I said if you mislim me today I don't want you to automatically lim him no matter how awful his play is today just because of my flip, but yes you should definitely be wary of him.
Anywho does this mean that you want to lim be even though you are townreading just because of his soft claim?

[duppin]

You're literally the scummiest player alive in this game and if you'd pull something like claiming a cop guilty on your scum teammate to buss again i wouldn't believe a word of it.
Luckily this is day 1 and you're the elimination today so that won't be a problem.

so this game just became norway + Noraa vs BM

I kinda want to consider scum partners norway+Noraa here

i dont see why they would both try to defend me if they were partners, i mean unless we are all 3 scumbuddies but in that case it would be an even riskier play i think

[duppin]

well he claims to be a pr that can confirm himself which i am unsure what to think of. its a very vague claim and i am unsure as to what he means with confirming himself

I can think of a few roles
IC, TFN, vigi?

there are several roles that's not the point, the point was more so that i am not sure what he means by confirming himself because some roles might only confirm that he has a specific ability/role but not his alignment

[duppin]

okay tbh once again i am honestly going to be honest since honesty is important

no okay but seriously i have to leave in a couple of hours and wont be back till tomorrow so i just want to make it very clear that I am town and I find this incredibly frustrating and actually not very enjoyable. I am supposed to defend myself against absolutely nothing.
He refuses to present a case on me so not only is it impossible for me to get a proper read on him but it's also a waste of time trying to engage him since he has already admitted that he is just tunneling at this point.

He has not provided a single actual reason for why he believes i am suspicious. He claims my ISO is so scummy that he apparatenly can't even make a case and that me saying I am honest is so incredibly scummy even though I clearly do it as either alignment so it means absoloutely nothing plus he also doesnt want to back up why he thinks it would even be a scumtell even though he suggests he often catches players like this.

i am sure someone will claim this is me being scum being frustrated at being caught by virtually nothing but no thats not the case, this is town me being frustrated by a really awful push. no reasons given, refuses to provide explanations when engaged, if i get mislimmed today then id tell town to be very wary of the players doing a 180 on me due to this push, if a town does a 180 on me then shame on them honestly thats just poor play

[duppin]

and also it hurts me to say this but if i do get mislimmed i dont want people to automatically lim BM tomorrow even if he fails to prove himself in the night (obviously depends on his claim, but he could be roleblocked and whatever if he is town) because there is a chance he is just being a bad townie at the moment. just to clarify i am not saying him scumreading me makes him a bad townie, i am saying his tunneling, refusal to explain and sticking to awful reasoning is what makes him a bad townie if he is town

[duppin]

but I have already shared my reads and listed my townblock but given that i think is suspicious for someone to do a 180 on me given the case you have presented i think it would be misleading for me to potentially townread a slot especially since im going to flip town if you mislim me

i mean this feels like an argument for you scumreading Norweg, but you haven't been so bold....yet.

Because this is just happening and I prefer to give him the chance to explain himself

I mean you're better off giving town an alternative aren't you? I'm pretty cool with competing Norweg and duppin wagons to give us a bit more info. At least part of your issue currently is there isn't any viable option other than flipping you.

I think Norweg's behaviour towards you - initially defending hard, then voting to see if it would go anywhere, then backtracking when it didn't immediately result in an elim, could arguably be seen as a bit scummy. Especially if you're town perhaps.

but there are alternatives like plus, mundivore, redados and whatever. I think these are all better alternatives to Norwee.
I don't want competing wagons between me and Norwee because while agree with you that what he did was a bad look I still find his overall play to be town. I also definitely don't want you to control who the competing wagons should be because as I said your reads seem to be almost opposite mine, you just replaced in so you havent been able to read the game and eveyrone properly yet, you havent really explained any of your reads plus you believe i am the "most obvious scum ever". Why should I have any faith in your reads at this point no matter what your alignment is?

and also it hurts me to say this but if i do get mislimmed i dont want people to automatically lim BM tomorrow even if he fails to prove himself in the night (obviously depends on his claim, but he could be roleblocked and whatever if he is town) because there is a chance he is just being a bad townie at the moment. just to clarify i am not saying him scumreading me makes him a bad townie, i am saying his tunneling, refusal to explain and sticking to awful reasoning is what makes him a bad townie if he is town

I'm not being a bad townie dude. I have a suspicion, I'm pushing it through. Even if I'm wrong, according to your definition there are others in this game who have also been "bad townies" for pushing people without putting forward a case which can be refuted (like, everybody who suspected me for starters).

I can definitely concede I'm not being the most virile version of BM here. So let's just leave it there, rather than throwing shade.

I disagree. If you are town then i genuinely think you are being a bad townie. As I said I don't think you are being a bad townie by scumreading or pushing on me, I think you are being a bad townie because you refuse to explain your read on me. Like I said if you are so dead set on me being scum yet don't want to present a case on me, then it would make way more sense for you to try to convince people i am scum by making an actual case. You already claimed you have read my whole ISO and if I am the most obvious scum you have ever seen surely it would be simple for you to point out what you think makes me scum. Add to the fact that if you are town then you are essentially tunneling hard on another townie but refusing to work with him by not trying to explain your logic or reasoning which would help me and everyone else get a better read on you. It comes across as you trying to push through a lim by claiming pr - the only reasons Norwee and and shelly voted on me was because of your pr claim, not because of your actual case. It's just bad play overall in my opinion because youre not really getting people to take actual stances, not trying to engage, not trying to open for discussion but just telling people to sheep you because of "your gut" (which is wrong) because you claim you can confirm yourself as PR. It is day 1, I really stand by my statement that if you are town then I think you are being a bad town at the moment

[duppin]

okay tbh once again i am honestly going to be honest since honesty is important

no okay but seriously i have to leave in a couple of hours and wont be back till tomorrow so i just want to make it very clear that I am town and I find this incredibly frustrating and actually not very enjoyable. I am supposed to defend myself against absolutely nothing.
He refuses to present a case on me so not only is it impossible for me to get a proper read on him but it's also a waste of time trying to engage him since he has already admitted that he is just tunneling at this point.

He has not provided a single actual reason for why he believes i am suspicious. He claims my ISO is so scummy that he apparatenly can't even make a case and that me saying I am honest is so incredibly scummy even though I clearly do it as either alignment so it means absoloutely nothing plus he also doesnt want to back up why he thinks it would even be a scumtell even though he suggests he often catches players like this.

i am sure someone will claim this is me being scum being frustrated at being caught by virtually nothing but no thats not the case, this is town me being frustrated by a really awful push. no reasons given, refuses to provide explanations when engaged, if i get mislimmed today then id tell town to be very wary of the players doing a 180 on me due to this push, if a town does a 180 on me then shame on them honestly thats just poor play

Although i admire the effort and emotion, you'd be better off spending your time actually making a case on somebody you think is scum.

but this is why ive been trying to solve your slot but you refuse to explain your reads giving me nothing to work with.

I've listed my reads and my current vote is on Plus. I think plus is suspicious, I think you are but your claim makes me not want to vote on you today, I still find redados suspicious but he isn't around and I think mundivore is suspicious as well

[duppin]

awful play? damn man, you're making it hard for me to like you. i think being wary of me is fine. i'm not going to say anything further about my role - less info for scum is definitely better in the circumcision.

that's fair the phrasing might be harsh and ill most likely apologise for it post game, but it is really frustrating to me. You refuse to evaluate my slot and you are trying to force a mislim on me through your claim. I'm not attacking you personally, I think everyone has played bad games and you are free to argue I have played a bad one here as well, my i think you have had a poor entrance if you are town not because of you not having proper reads yet which I said i understand given you replaced into the spam, but more so the way you approached your push

[duppin]

okay tbh once again i am honestly going to be honest since honesty is important

no okay but seriously i have to leave in a couple of hours and wont be back till tomorrow so i just want to make it very clear that I am town and I find this incredibly frustrating and actually not very enjoyable. I am supposed to defend myself against absolutely nothing.
He refuses to present a case on me so not only is it impossible for me to get a proper read on him but it's also a waste of time trying to engage him since he has already admitted that he is just tunneling at this point.

He has not provided a single actual reason for why he believes i am suspicious. He claims my ISO is so scummy that he apparatenly can't even make a case and that me saying I am honest is so incredibly scummy even though I clearly do it as either alignment so it means absoloutely nothing plus he also doesnt want to back up why he thinks it would even be a scumtell even though he suggests he often catches players like this.

i am sure someone will claim this is me being scum being frustrated at being caught by virtually nothing but no thats not the case, this is town me being frustrated by a really awful push. no reasons given, refuses to provide explanations when engaged, if i get mislimmed today then id tell town to be very wary of the players doing a 180 on me due to this push, if a town does a 180 on me then shame on them honestly thats just poor play

Although i admire the effort and emotion, you'd be better off spending your time actually making a case on somebody you think is scum.

but this is why ive been trying to solve your slot but you refuse to explain your reads giving me nothing to work with.

I've listed my reads and my current vote is on Plus. I think plus is suspicious, I think you are but your claim makes me not want to vote on you today, I still find redados suspicious but he isn't around and I think mundivore is suspicious as well

mate you dont need to solve my slot, I'm town, and I think that ship has sailed for today anyway. Assume I'm town, and work with that.

I'd be happy to look at a mundivore case from you?

oh I'm not going to lie I actually find it a bit well annoying i guess that youre telling me to assume your town when you have shown no interest in even entertaining the idea I could be town

As for Mundivore I've explained why I'm suspicious of the slot and I genuinely think it would be easier for you to ISO me but overall:
what they did early game was really skethcy, they claimed to townread your slot(which in itself I thought was suspicious because i dont think your slot had done anything to warrant a townread) but still voted on it. When I asked them about it I thought their response was okay though, but the overall play was still really weird.
their read on me did not align with their other reads at all
and then just because i feel several players were projecting town rather well so i think it was very likely at least one scum was coasting by

[duppin]

awful play? damn man, you're making it hard for me to like you. i think being wary of me is fine. i'm not going to say anything further about my role - less info for scum is definitely better in the circumcision.

that's fair the phrasing might be harsh and ill most likely apologise for it post game, but it is really frustrating to me. You refuse to evaluate my slot and you are trying to force a mislim on me through your claim. I'm not attacking you personally, I think everyone has played bad games and you are free to argue I have played a bad one here as well, my i think you have had a poor entrance if you are town not because of you not having proper reads yet which I said i understand given you replaced into the spam, but more so the way you approached your push

I think the fact we have 100+ pages and no consensus and limited info on Day 1 is a failure on the part of everybody, including myself, regardless of alignment.

I don't think I could have done much differently with the entrance. It has only gone the way it has because of Noraa and Norweg having personal problems with me which aren't related to anything in this game, and the Saudade slot being vulnerable because it didn't post much.

I think you could, I think you could have put more effort into explaining your reads. I understand that its not fun to catch up in a game with this much spam, but you threw out a lot of reads and came across as very confident with very ltitle explanation and a clear indication that you hadnt really caught up to the game yet which is obviously understandable. You tunneled reads and was not trying to solve. I agree that we are close to deadline so obviously we should try to push for a lim, but trying to force a lim by saying youre a tpr and that you are willing to trade yourself is not a good entrance in my opinion. So the tunneling behaviour, dismissal of others, refusing to explain reads, using a soft pr claim and wifom (willing to trade) to push a lim through is what bothers me personally

[duppin]

I think if you want to complain about people not taking actual stances, you need to be more pro-active yourself and give people something to talk about other than "is duppin scum?". I have been very supportive of a counter-wagon, but it would need to be someone who I think has a good chance of flipping red.

I'm curious as to how this game got so long? Who benefits from that? my own musings...

sure thats valid criticism, but my point is more so that I am already on a counter wagon (plus), you disagree with the read which is fair but i dont think you can argue that i need to be pro active and push a counter wagon while also dismissing it all if you dont agree with the wagon itself. I am not saying I wish to push this wagon as of right now though, instead what i will say is that you also have to understand how annoying it is to have someone try to force a lim on you by claming he can confirm himself as pr and is willing to trade himself and nothing else

[duppin]

Hey, BM, you normally actually do the meta on these kind of cases. You looked at the rate of my usage of "worries" and "concerns" in that newbie game. Why are you choosing to ignore evidence which suggests your case is completely invalid, or look into it yourself?

effort man - unlike in your case where that was my only real argument, in this case it's one of many, and so doing a meta analysis ain't worth it.

but why are you not willing to present any of these many arguments then?

[duppin]

I think if you want to complain about people not taking actual stances, you need to be more pro-active yourself and give people something to talk about other than "is duppin scum?". I have been very supportive of a counter-wagon, but it would need to be someone who I think has a good chance of flipping red.

I'm curious as to how this game got so long? Who benefits from that? my own musings...

sure thats valid criticism, but my point is more so that I am already on a counter wagon (plus), you disagree with the read which is fair but i dont think you can argue that i need to be pro active and push a counter wagon while also dismissing it all if you dont agree with the wagon itself. I am not saying I wish to push this wagon as of right now though, instead what i will say is that you also have to understand how annoying it is to have someone try to force a lim on you by claming he can confirm himself as pr and is willing to trade himself and nothing else

i think its fine for me to suggest you come up with a viable alternative to your elim.

i think so too, but i dont think its fine to claim i am not doing so just because you disagree with the read. i dont trust you or have faith in your reads, yet you also claim you are only willing to entertain a counter wagon if it is on one of your own reads which obviously makes sense, but that does not mean i dont want to lim someone else. I also think its odd for you to suggest that it is defeatist of me not to propose anotehr wagon i mean i suppose it could be, but i think its rather obvious that i am actually trying to put in an effort and if you think it makes more sense for me to scum to go on a rant instead of trying to push a lim then i am not sure why you believe that to be the case.

it just so happens that we both find mundivore suspicious, but if i am the most obvious scum ever and your top scum read why would you want a counterwagon?

[duppin]

I think if you want to complain about people not taking actual stances, you need to be more pro-active yourself and give people something to talk about other than "is duppin scum?". I have been very supportive of a counter-wagon, but it would need to be someone who I think has a good chance of flipping red.

I'm curious as to how this game got so long? Who benefits from that? my own musings...

sure thats valid criticism, but my point is more so that I am already on a counter wagon (plus), you disagree with the read which is fair but i dont think you can argue that i need to be pro active and push a counter wagon while also dismissing it all if you dont agree with the wagon itself. I am not saying I wish to push this wagon as of right now though, instead what i will say is that you also have to understand how annoying it is to have someone try to force a lim on you by claming he can confirm himself as pr and is willing to trade himself and nothing else

i think its fine for me to suggest you come up with a viable alternative to your elim.

i think so too, but i dont think its fine to claim i am not doing so just because you disagree with the read. i dont trust you or have faith in your reads, yet you also claim you are only willing to entertain a counter wagon if it is on one of your own reads which obviously makes sense, but that does not mean i dont want to lim someone else. I also think its odd for you to suggest that it is defeatist of me not to propose anotehr wagon i mean i suppose it could be, but i think its rather obvious that i am actually trying to put in an effort and if you think it makes more sense for me to scum to go on a rant instead of trying to push a lim then i am not sure why you believe that to be the case.

it just so happens that we both find mundivore suspicious, but if i am the most obvious scum ever and your top scum read why would you want a counterwagon?

counterwagon means valuable info.

I don't disagree with that, I'm just having trouble following the logic of you being absolutely certain I am scum yet still trying to suggest you would vote on Mundivore if you had to unless I misunderstood what you were saying?

[duppin]

I mean I'm fine with my current vote but I am also okay with moving it. I'm personally okay with voting on either Mundivore, Plus or Redados

[duppin]

I think if you want to complain about people not taking actual stances, you need to be more pro-active yourself and give people something to talk about other than "is duppin scum?". I have been very supportive of a counter-wagon, but it would need to be someone who I think has a good chance of flipping red.

I'm curious as to how this game got so long? Who benefits from that? my own musings...

sure thats valid criticism, but my point is more so that I am already on a counter wagon (plus), you disagree with the read which is fair but i dont think you can argue that i need to be pro active and push a counter wagon while also dismissing it all if you dont agree with the wagon itself. I am not saying I wish to push this wagon as of right now though, instead what i will say is that you also have to understand how annoying it is to have someone try to force a lim on you by claming he can confirm himself as pr and is willing to trade himself and nothing else

i think its fine for me to suggest you come up with a viable alternative to your elim.

i think so too, but i dont think its fine to claim i am not doing so just because you disagree with the read. i dont trust you or have faith in your reads, yet you also claim you are only willing to entertain a counter wagon if it is on one of your own reads which obviously makes sense, but that does not mean i dont want to lim someone else. I also think its odd for you to suggest that it is defeatist of me not to propose anotehr wagon i mean i suppose it could be, but i think its rather obvious that i am actually trying to put in an effort and if you think it makes more sense for me to scum to go on a rant instead of trying to push a lim then i am not sure why you believe that to be the case.

it just so happens that we both find mundivore suspicious, but if i am the most obvious scum ever and your top scum read why would you want a counterwagon?

counterwagon means valuable info.

I don't disagree with that, I'm just having trouble following the logic of you being absolutely certain I am scum yet still trying to suggest you would vote on Mundivore if you had to unless I misunderstood what you were saying?

i'm not

certain

you're scum, I said like 95% I think. I'd even go down to 90% now because you just don't seem to be trying that hard to survive. I'm respectful enough to listen to what you say if it accords with parameters which I've set.

not really relevant but this is the third 90% scumread on me this game, not sure whats about with the 90%

anyway you certainly come across that way. its difficult for me to address your read though since you havent explained why you think so

[duppin]

i think anyone looking desperately at me to make a case for them, should be considered as scummy. especially in a world where duppin is town. however, duppin is ignoring the behaviour of those around him, to focus on the lurkers. no bueno.

what makes you think I am ignoring them? I believe hectic, bugspray and UNOwen are all very town town. I do believe Norwee is town but I am a bit concerned about some of his recent posts.
I think it's reasonable to claim I am ignoring them just because I have a different read than you.

[duppin]

i mean i dont think its reasonable

[duppin]

i think anyone looking desperately at me to make a case for them, should be considered as scummy. especially in a world where duppin is town. however, duppin is ignoring the behaviour of those around him, to focus on the lurkers. no bueno.

what makes you think I am ignoring them? I believe hectic, bugspray and UNOwen are all very town town. I do believe Norwee is town but I am a bit concerned about some of his recent posts.
I think it's reasonable to claim I am ignoring them just because I have a different read than you.

no, i dont think its reasonable to say:

"I'm town, and I read them town, and am actively turning a blind eye even when they act scummy"

your lack of progression does not feel genuine to me. Town-duppin would be looking at everything going on, rather than simply focussing 100% on defending himself and then going with a half-assed elim on somebody he has barely commented on for the last 5 pages.

not really, town duppin is frustrated at what he thinks is a really bad push where he believes the player was trying to hide behind a soft claim to push a lim through.

and I really unsure as to how you can conclude there hasnt been a progression, obviously my focus has been on you since you have been tunneling hard on me, but that does not i am ignoring everyone else. are you implying there can only be a progression if i drop all of my townreads? none of them have done anything i find suspicious other than norwees vote on me which i do find questionable, it has definitely resulted in a slight drop of my townread on him but it does not mean i am suddenly scumreading him.

as for the latter part of your comment, what is that even supposed to mean? i could understand your point if i hadnt talked about the players at all and suddenly were open to the idea of voting on them, but mentioning the fact i have barely talked about them for the last 5 pages means absolutely nothing

[duppin]

apologise for the missing words doing this on my phone at the moment

[duppin]

i think it is very unreasonable for you to expect me to properly evaluate everything going on and mention every single player and my read progression on them during the middle of our discussion where you are tunneling me and pushing what i feel is a incredibly unjustified read on me while giving me the impression you are trying to force the mislim by claiming to be a pr and saying you are willing to trade

[duppin]

i think it is very unreasonable for you to expect me to properly evaluate everything going on and mention every single player and my read progression on them during the middle of our discussion where you are tunneling me and pushing what i feel is a incredibly unjustified read on me while giving me the impression you are trying to force the mislim by claiming to be a pr and saying you are willing to trade

i disagree, i think continually reverting back to repeating yourself on this is more scumlean, when you could be pushing someone you suspect. Even after prompting you're still obsessing over what i think about you. are you worried about pushing on somebody and alienating them into targetting you too?

no not at all, in fact i mentioned all the players i would be okay with limming so if my concern was about alienating them into targetting me then i have already done so, also it is relatively obvious at this point that whoever i vote on will be a competing wagon to my own wagon so they have already are going to be targetting me

[duppin]

also these are all players i have been already pushed on anyway

[duppin]

yeah because i really care about getting pagetop

[duppin]

alright so i have some time before going to bed, not a fan of the hostility and i apologise if i contributed to that.

anyway i like the fire from noora actually, still have no idea how to read her but it feels rather townie to me.
however hectic actually pointed something out regarding bm that i think is rather town, now i dont really know much about bms scumgame but the whole "honestly" read he pushed, would a scum really notice something like that? i cant help but feel this is more likely to be something a town would pick up on. I still think its a useless read and he has just claimed again he has caught people with it before so id honestly still like to see this because i just have a really hard time seeing it. But yeah if anyone is more familiar with bms scumplay and knows if thats normal for him to point out then id like to hear it. if not i think its more likely to be a town tell

[duppin]

out of curiousity though bm why did you claim VT initially? there were no votes on you or anything

[duppin]

bm i would really appreciate if you could explain why you claimed VT. There were no votes on you so the claim seems a bit random to me

[duppin]

i have a pretty strong townread on bugs

[duppin]

i have a pretty strong townread on bugs

......do u not see his flip floppiness? the lack of justification of anything? the sheeping? the fence sitting?

but as hectic pointed out and as their own iso says, them flip flopping a bit isnt really alignment indicative of them.
I think their early game was really town - the way they initially pushed Jester and then backed off and pushed elsewhere felt so natural and town as it seemed like a genuine attempt at gamesolving. They then dropped off quite a bit and kept saying they were doing notes, but it wasn't until after they were called out for it a couple of days ago they actually went back to their notes after hectic asked for it and what followed once again just felt so genuine and natural to me

[duppin]

sorry i meant as their own signature says not iso

[duppin]

okay so unless something weird happens today we already know who we are limming but it'd still like to point out vigi would not be the only explanation for this, another possibility could be a busdriver or something similar.

[duppin]

if noora is scum i can definitely see mundivore being scum with her, but i am not really sold on the UNOwen case

[duppin]

okay so unless something weird happens today we already know who we are limming but it'd still like to point out vigi would not be the only explanation for this, another possibility could be a busdriver or something similar.

isnt busdriver bastard

i definitely would not consider it to be

[duppin]

can scums have bus drivers?

it can, if you flip town then it is very likely that this is the case i think unless BM ended up targeting someone else but that would be rather odd given his statement

[duppin]

no that doesnt make it bastard, but thanks for the link as it does go against the normal ruleset

[duppin]

in that case i cant see an explanation unless we have a vigi or sk around

[duppin]

in that case i cant see an explanation unless we have a vigi or sk around

sks have to have their own kill flavor separate from maf

thats not how i understood your link. to me it sounds like it says differing kill flavor is considered to be non normal

[duppin]

actually just needed to confirm but seems like i was correct: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Kill_flavor

[duppin]

I'll claim at E-1

why exactly would you not just claim now?

[duppin]

noraa i dont think there is any reason to hold on to your claim

[duppin]

i agree with plus, there is no gain for you as town to hold on to your claim at this point

[duppin]

so refusing to claim just makes me more convinced you are scum

[duppin]

My claim will not stop my lim so there's no point but I will claim if everyone insists I claim

but that is not a reason not to claim. I think if you are town you should have realised that it meant town is in a pretty bad position

[duppin]

Whats a sk?

And duppin town's in a bad position but so what? even if I claim, I die. Why not make everyone regret later when I flip rather than be upset I claimed and still died?
petty, yes. but its my thing.
Noraa!lim is determined and it is what it is

so yeah only 2 possibilities remain really
1. we have sk, and they killed bm to frame noraa. unlikely
2. we have an absentminded vig who shot bm and they haven't woken up or won't claim (unlikely)

3. BM did me dirty and targeted someone else (most likely)

because if you believe BM did you dirty and you understand why town has to lim you, then why do you want the rest of town to "regret" limming you? If you are town it comes across as you not wanting to claim just out of spite I think

[duppin]

Theres a reason why I dont want to claim but I'd have to put a ginormous wall together to explain it. If everyone thinks its a good idea for me to do the big wall anyways, there will be a wait bc its hard to explain.

i would like to hear it at least, we have time. also I am very opposed to a quick lim especially when we still need some players to chime in some more, we especially need to hear from Mundivore

[duppin]

bugspray > hectic nightkill is interesting. scum might be wanting to use hectics (incorrect?) SR on someone to push through this.

i thought so as well, but then i realise people pointed out that norwee most likely cleared bugs yesterday, but then i realised it was hectic who pointed it out which in itself is not a concern, but the way he kept pointing it out and wanted everyone to accept it made me slightly paranoid he did so, so people would not question bugs dying over him. I still think hectics play overall has been town I will gladly admit that, but i am really rather paranoid about him at the moment. in fact i was considering suggesting we just no lim today for selfish reasons because i am having a bit of trouble with some of my reads, but i realise that would perhaps create even more confusing wifom for me so yeah

i kinda think duppin is scum now rather than uno, duppin has few interactions with noraa, duppin/dave/noraa is a very viable solve

I am curious as to how you went from duppin is unlikely to be with noraa last day to this. Could you elaborate more on the read on me and uno?

[duppin]

Dave who do you think is scum?

My current scumreads are Noraa and Mundivore.
Slight scumlean on you.

I had a scumread on Mundivore. Never got much opportunity to elaborate.

I have a hard time accepting this seeing as you put out a naked vote on Mundivore putting them at L-1. You definitely had the possibility of providing a reason.
But I actually thought your scumread had more so to do with PoE but you seem to be suggesting you had something more, so could you explain why you thought they were scum?

[duppin]

?????

why did you just put mundi at UNANNOUNCED E-1? and right after you told us to hold our horses

by the way shelly why did you not unvote here?

[duppin]

I am curious as to how you went from duppin is unlikely to be with noraa last day to this. Could you elaborate more on the read on me and uno?

I was rereading and @duppin what you did towards noraa was basically saying that they were town miselimination bait and says noraa puts "no effort" which I read as not partnery
however after rereading that I find that you avoid voting for them because they're "newbtown"

I don't disagree with the sentiment that I could not have said something like that to a partner, but I don't really get the point about me avoiding voting on them?
I never expressed interest in voting on her I said I don't really know how to solve her slot

[duppin]

I scumread mundivore and ive got no problem voting out my scumreads. the problem was dave's nonexistent trajectory and unannounced E-1 which was very opportunistic. if mundi flipped red i wouldnt really have a problem with dave's vote

To avoid confusion I still believe you are more likely to be town, but you should have unvoted there.

i am not going to be a hindsight warrior blaming people for voting on Mundivore because I think no matter what Mundivore would most likely have been limmed yesterday and I would have voted on them as well, but the speed lim and you + plus both acknowledging it yet not stopping it is not good and if you are town then I do think its worth calling out but this is more for post game I think because while I do not approve of it I don't think you and Noraa are together

I actually know bugs was pushing a you + noraa world so I tried to evaluate it and i just think its really unlikely

[duppin]

but I don't really get the point about me avoiding voting on them?

like you're saying that they're miselimination bait but you're not doing anything to fix that, you binned them as newbtown and avoided attention on them

But how am I avoiding voting on her? I said that if she is town then I think she is mislim bait which means that if she is scum then she is likely to get limmed as well. I had no scumread on her, so I just think it's a bit weird to phrase it as me avoiding voting on her

[duppin]

Anyway I think the most obvious pair would be dave + plus. UNO could be scum but I stand by my earlier read - i think his votes sound very town. I do believe shelly is town.

Hectic I think your play has been really town overall but I must admit that the way you defended Noraa and questioned scumreads on her day 1 does bother me a bit now. It would help me a lot if you could convince me that you are indeed town and not just deep wolfing. I am very curious as to where your thoughts are at today

[duppin]

But how am I avoiding voting on her? I said that if she is town then I think she is mislim bait which means that if she is scum then she is likely to get limmed as well. I had no scumread on her, so I just think it's a bit weird to phrase it as me avoiding voting on her

why did you actually townread them then? newbie pass?

No I never townread her until the end of day 1 where I said I got slight town vibes from her "fire" towards BM

[duppin]

do we massclaim here or nah?

I would personally be okay with claiming - but seeing as mafia had a doc i am not entirely sure it is the best idea to force a mass claim