Mini 650: Over

[sirdanilot]

vote: flyingfoxbat

You don't vote yourself in the random voting phase.

[sirdanilot]

Whats wrong with it, really? =P

Voting for yourself beats the purpose of the random voting phase. Since there is absolutely no information to start with in this game, people tend to just randomly vote each other to get the ball rolling.

FFB (I'll abbreviate him like that from now on!) voted himself. Voting yourself does not give the town any information at all. Voting yourself is just plain useless, ie. not helpful to the town, ie. anti town, ie. scum.

If it helps, imagine everyone voting for their selves in the random voting phase as opposed to how a normal random voting phase goes. What gives more information?

[sirdanilot]

Hm, I see no problems voting for yourself. To be honest, I never got much out of opening game. Except from amateurs to the game entirely, who usually have a lucky first guess...

XDDD

Anyway, I have no change of base, but I do find SirD's actions slightly strange... His vote was entirely based off a self vote, but so early.... hm...

I dunno, just gonna wait on his response.

So you 'never got much out of an opening game'. Then, how do all games start? With a random voting phase. And at some point they turn into the real day one. I am not going to repeat my rant that explains why self voting is wrong, it's been quoted several times so you can read it again yourself.

'Vote entirely based off a self vote' - then what should my vote be based off? Did you think before you typed this?

Quite honestly it looks like you're only entering this discussion to look town and look involved. It looks like you just started typing away, actually.

FoS Lightkun

[sirdanilot]

Quite honestly, I see OC's semi-joking vote on Kris as a town tell.

Over what? A joking random vote? I didn't do anything suspicious.

FFB's self-vote in the random voting phase may have counted suspicious to him? But dalt, please do explain your vote.

OC's argument that voting a lot is good

I totally agree with that. However, what do you think of self-voting? Do you think it is as good as just normally voting, or is it better/worse and why. What do you think about FFB's self-vote.

[sirdanilot]

Intelligence IS a sign of scum, but only if it is intelligent that only scum players (and mod) could possibly know.

@SirD, I do not like Wifflytuff, at all. Sorry. Additionally, I do not like your rather weak attack on me, based on reading a bit too much into my words. Early game= random voting phase. I don't read much into people's votes, at all. In fact, I find the whole idea of finding value in someone's initial random vote to be silly to say the least. If I were scum, I would roll dice, and disguise it with some crap reason. Or, I would find a specific joke reason (ie, I hate Wigglytuff, or the N for Near statement, neither of which are true to me.) This, of course, would be dictated by my trend of random voting, so that it stays to be the same. So, I see very little value in the RVS, except from amateurs, who are more inclined to slip (opinion, not fact, and I don't treat it as fool proof).

It's really easy for scum to say there's little value in the random voting stage, as it allows them to do anything they so please.
And, you 'don't like' my attack? That's pretty easy, to not like your attacker. This seems like, uhm what's it called... OMGUS!

OC explained why random voting is very useful early on, and that voting a lot in general is helpful. Are you saying that the random voting stage is useless?

Also, it's Wigglytuff.

Now, to move discussion:

I don't like OverC.'s comedy post, just a note on my thoughts for future reference.

For future reference? This really looks like you're keeping all options open, which is pretty scummy to me. Also, you didn't mention

why

you find it scummy.

Next:
I don't like Omni's lack of commentary and interaction. Two post with a grand total of two lines to show for it.... I don't care for this.

(And no, I think nothing of L-2)

Unvote, Vote: Light-Kun

Oh wow, and there comes the 'accidental' self-vote. Quite frankly, I don't know what you were trying to do with that, but I am not completely convinced that was accidental.

Really Lightkun, I don't know what you're trying to do with this post, but I think it's scummy as hell, even without that 'accidental' self-vote.

unvote vote lightkun

[sirdanilot]

KrisReitzer: OC's vote that you were analyzing was a

joke

vote, it was still in the random voting phase and the reasoning was semi-joking. Seriously, when I read your post I really had to facepalm...

Now, if you found that joke vote scummy, that's another matter, but in that case you should have analyzed it as such.


Lightkun, would you mind making your posts a bit more compact in the future as that took up almost half a page. Also, not knowing what your vote is on strikes me a sloppy and not very pro-town, even if you don't know you should take the effort to check it.

I assume that Lightkun agrees with all the reasoning that I used to have my vote on him, as he didn't reply to my post 49 at all (except for a small bit on the random voting phase argument).

[sirdanilot]

*Laughs so hard it actually hurts.*
Okay, I am officially doing too much at once.

No, I pretty much admitted that I am an absolute and total moron. *Laughs again*
I mentally crossed someone's vote for me in another game into your FoS post. Forget not reading, it was just plain lack of being absolutely thorough to the point of being anal. *SLAMS HEAD INTO DESK*

On the other hand, you have moved way up on my town list for your reaction play. (Too bad I can't be this convincing intentionally....)

Okay, Back to Square One as they say. (And no, I totally won't hold it against anyone who finger of suspicions me for the sheer stupidity of my play.)

ANYWAY, I don't thing the prodded people have poked back in, so.... suspicious, unless they are killaseven players, in which case lynching them is fine. (Killaseven lurked like this in a completed game, flipped scum at the end, which I suspected...so I am uberly skeptical.)

What else...
Well, Someone2 my answer is still above. And finally, sorry to anyone who read above post. It is really not necessary to read it except for history. (Subtract opinions against Omni though, which were apparently completely unfounded.)

*Second, stronger apology. SORRY for being a complete and total douche*

Uhm, when I saw this post I planned to torn it up in little bits and explain why they were scummy, because this entire post is just so scummy. 'I did something wrong im an idiot OLOL0LZ XDDDDDDDDD!!!111 but its all good now RIGHT??11'

Then, I figured I don't want to waste my life on mafia and I have other things to do, so I hope you'll believe me on my word that posts like these aren't helping you at all. It'd be better if you would start actually contributing to this game.

If it helps, just imagine the length of this very post when I would quote every little scummy bit and post a comment of two lines about it.

[sirdanilot]

I'm going on vacation till next monday, feel free to replace me.

Uhm, going away for only three days won't get you replaced out, especially since the game is moving at a really slow pace (except for light-kun of course!)

People, a bit more posting of someone not called light-kun would be appreciated!

[sirdanilot]

mod: please replace out ALL inactive players, this game has come to a standstill now (inquisitor and dalt)

[sirdanilot]

This game is going really, really slowly.

So far, light-kun is still my main suspect, but quite honestly the other players haven't contributed that much. I hope the replacements will be a bit more active. There isn't that much to read, anyway, so hopefully we'll start soon.

[sirdanilot]

What the hell SC, you are voting me because you know me from some other forum? Or is this your way of random voting? Newsflash: we're out of the random voting stage, you don't get a random vote.

unvote, vote Sensfan, FoS light-kun

Alright, the following is out-of-game chat: I just remember now, Light-kun, weren't you one of the ttrpg mods there as well?

[sirdanilot]

To be honest it seems like you're trying to please me with those opinions.

You didn't back up your opinions, I don't like that.

I am going to put my vote back on Light-Kun, since I'd like to see him act under pressure, but you'll get a FoS.

unvote vote lightkun, FoS SensFan

[sirdanilot]

Wait, what? I said I agreed with a few of your posts, but there are definatively a lot of my own thoughts in there, especially as they concern the posts of your about the random stage (which are the main ones I agreed with).

That's okay, but it just gives me that impression.

Now, I hope the rest of the players start becoming more active too.

[sirdanilot]

Drake, your predecessor voted and the vote carried over, so if you don't suspect FFB you should unvote him. Or you can see how he has voted himself (and still has his vote there) and decide whether that's scummy or not, your pick.

I'd also like to see a read of the game from you, drake.

[sirdanilot]

in working out who could be mafia

Well, let's see...only {everybody}...

Touché.

[sirdanilot]

mod, could we get a votecount

[sirdanilot]

OC, what's your opinion about LK, and the way some people reacted to him?

mod

: Please prod Brandi and FlyingFoxBat, this game needs to start getting active.

[sirdanilot]

Ugh... talking about power roles is

wrong

. It only helps the scum, and town can't be sure they're a power role anyway until they claim, and that's only a last resort. Just generally, usually you shouldn't mention power roles until endgame.

FoS afatchic

, I think that post is really scummy (the one that mentions power roles and stuff)

[sirdanilot]

[quote=afatchic]Sird other than the suspicions you have made about me, who else do you see acting strange and why. [/quote]
LK, and I did not like FFB's self-vote, and I posted something about SF.

As for why I find LK scummy, I think you should just reread my posts on that matter. I really don't feel like summarizing and reiterating it, and I don't have the time for it.

Also FFB, I'm looking forward to your participation.

[sirdanilot]

ok then let me reword the question. is the scummy post he made back in the first page or two your sole reason for still voting him?

No, he made a lot of scummy posts.

Why don't you read a one-player thread? If you don't know how, at the bottom of the thread you see a drop down list that says 'all players', select that and choose lightkun, then click 'go'. If that doesn't work, click here.

[sirdanilot]

Kmd, I'm not accusing you of this here, but just keep in mind that too scummy =/= towny, and too towny =/= scummy. Because if that were the case, every mafia game would just be one big pool of WIFOM.

[sirdanilot]

LK, Afatchic never defended you, and I don't see at all how the line you quoted is scummy. Seriously, that was horrible.

It's too bad Brandi has to replace out, but hopefully the game will get more active now.

mod: please prod SensFan

[sirdanilot]

LK's play style in this game generally seems the same as in other games, but it's just worse in this game. Basically I have the idea that I'm in a game with the same player but then times ten (I played with LK in mini 649 but that one's still ongoing).

Seriously I don't think meta clears him at all. I'm not sure if we have both a scum-LK as a town-LK meta? If we don't, I think metas lose a lot of their value.

[sirdanilot]

If two people, by general town have to be mafia, and the town will win when both die regardless of all other events (usually except for day kills), then my death helps town (assuming it comes down to myself and another person).

However, this doesn't seem to be a likely case on this mafia. (Has played more IRC games than forum, which is actually not the best way to learn mafia in hindsight.)

Someone2 hasn't given me any reads either way yet. Although, his activity has decreased. I think he was kind of active about 3 pages ago...

How does this post contribute. If you want your death to help town, do anything to prevent it and to get the scum lynched. You shouldn't even say that you don't mind dying if it helps the town. The way to make it help is by showing the town who you find the most scummy, and leaving as much information behind as possible.

IRC mafia is completely different than forum mafia. IRC is more setup puzzling while forum mafia is deducing scum tells from things people have said. You'll even notice that the things that are used in one form of mafia are sometimes scumtells in the other form. Ie.: voting someone because someone said something suspicious in IRC mafia is bad, and trying to guess the setup is bad in forum mafia. Although there are obviously many exceptions to this.

[sirdanilot]

I will be away over the weekend.

Interesting points and analysis on me. I was planning to do a read on another player than LK sometime, but I've been kind of busy. I think I'm going to do an analysis on hitogoroshi (or however it's spelled) when I get back.

[sirdanilot]

Hitogoroshi PBPA.

0 - Random vote (good)
1 - FoSes Lightkun because of his post. good
2 - Hito defends KMD. pretty good
3 - ebwop
4 - Good post, but I don't like his playstyle.

(That's my play style - very conservative with my vote, as opposed to those who use it as a pressure tool. This tends to make me the hammerer.)

Voting a lot gives the town a lot of information. So basically you hardly give the town any information with this play style.
5 - Good defense. (good)

This does not mean that I like his play style now. I still disagree with it, but that defense was a pro-town post.
6 - Nice, but I don't like the long period of not posting (still good)
7 - Huh? Not sure what his reasoning is here. (not good)
8 - Heh. Good explanation (good)
9 - Good (good)
10 - Suspects FFB (good)
11 ^
12 - ebwop


To be quite honest, I was planning to build a case on hito because I suspected him. Now that I've done this PBPA, he looks very pro-town. He contributes in every post. My only concern is that he doesn't post that much, but I now think that he's one of the more pro-town players.

I am not saying that hito is now confirmed town, but I do think that he's off my list of people I suspect for now.

[sirdanilot]

Hey guys, let's force SensFan to provide reasoning why he wants to lynch LK!

unvote vote SensFan

[sirdanilot]

Tough one, eh SensFan?

Meta doesn't mean anything, I don't care whether you did it before or not, it's anti-town and I will not tolerate it.

Afatchic, I do think a bandwagon may give us some info. I really love how LK immediately jumped on to it (and of course I expected it), things like that give us information.

And even if he doesn't budge, we can put him at l-1 and force him to. I don't see how withholding information can be helpful to the town at that point, so if he doesn't budge at l-1 we may have caught some scum!

Or, SensFan, just save us the trouble and either tell why you're voting LK or why it's pro-town to withhold information at this point.

Afatchic, I agree that his play style is extremely anti-town. But, too scummy =/= town. Please remember this argument for your future games, it's a mistake many newbies make. One can never be too scummy in normal games like this. Because, if that were possible, scum hunting would be completely impossible and everything would just become WIFOM.

The only exception is if there's a Jester in the game, but that is never the case in Mini Normals and one will always be notified beforehand if there's a jester.

[sirdanilot]

Omni, votes can also be used as a pressure tool. It's not like LK is going to run away when we unvote him for someone else.

Now, I'll admit that I do not use my vote as a pressure tool very often, but this is one of those instances where I think it's very helpful to the town to bandwagon SensFan. It gives us heaps of information. Some info we've got so far:

1. LK immediately jumping on.
2. Omni merely FoSing
3. Afatchic's posts may be interesting later on.
4. SensFan still not budging after 3 votes on him.

Not everything here is equally as valuable. I am also not saying that all the people listed are scum, I'm just saying that these posts and actions may be of value later on.

[sirdanilot]

I actually like afatchic's defense here. And I clearly said that I would've been willing to lynch SensFan if he continued to refuse to give information, as town wouldn't do that.

Anyway, I do agree that Afatchic is pretty scummy, so I'm quite honestly a bit torn up on whom to vote...

I'm going back to LK, but I'm willing to compromise on Afat.

unvote vote Light-kun

mod: can we get a votecount

I agree with hito that it's getting late and we should start ending this day.

[sirdanilot]

You are an idiot.

Shush shush. No ad hominem attacks please.

[sirdanilot]

No counter claim.

Unvote, vote Afatchic

Moving on to my second suspect.

We shouldn't lynch anyone before every single player has posted in response to this claim.

And SensFan, I agreed with most of your points. I personally don't mind swear words but they are generally not used on this forum and some players probably don't like them, so it'd be better not to reinforce your case with 'fucking' etc.

Now that LK is cleared (at least until someone counter claims), LK seems to actually be a newbie. However, I feel that I should mention that he played differently in Mini 649, where he had a pro town power role too (mason vig). So yeah, either he's lying and going to be counter claimed or he just, uhm, screwed up a bit or something? I don't know.

[sirdanilot]

Case on KrisReizer and Afatchic.

I decided to do my very own pbpa of these two, without looking at someone2's pbpa. Then, I will check his pbpa and compare them.

0 - Random vote (null)
1 - Argument about the random voting phase. In my opinion, the random voting phase is the only way to get a game going. Taking that away by voting for oneself is just bad. His simulation heuristic point is nonsense. (null/slightly scummy)
2 - double post
3 - Says people are reading to much into a random vote. Absolutely awfully scummy at this stage of the game. That's how a game is supposed to start! And he is taking OC's attack seriously. Probably a newbie tell. (scummy)
4 - Wow, he agrees with LK's flawed case. Horrible post. (scummy)
5 - Unvotes random vote (null). Defends LK by saying his post didn't really say much. 'Anyone could be scum so anyone is a suspect'. No shit. (scummy)
6 - good (null/town)
7 - Huh, how can he have the same opinion as Brandi here. Brandi more or less attacked him and now he agrees and he says he said a 'forceful' statement, while he just agreed with LK? (Very scummy)
Accuses everyone of reading 'drastically into small actions'. (scummy)
He attacks OC's joke vote. I'm not sure if this is a scum or a newb tell, or newbie scum, but it's horrible (newbie/scummy)

Then he goes away. (most likely null, I don't want to speculate why someone leaves a game)

Afatchic pops in
0 - Says FFB's self vote is scummy, then debunks it by saying scum wouldn't do it (newbie/scummy)
Good point about SensFan (good)
I actually don't really dislike his point about Light-kun. Sure, a pbpa or something may have been better, but his point that lk forgot his vote wasn't that scummy in itself. The reasoning is a bit flawed (I don't really see a reason that scum would forget their vote) but this doesn't give me a scum vibe. He seems to be trying to analyze LK properly, but still LK is easy for scum to do a fake case on. And yes, of course it's easy to jump on the most suspicious player but still (rather good, some scummy bits)
1 - Now, he reiterates that only scum would forget their vote, and I don't really agree with that. (scummy)
2 - Bad defense about debunking his own point against FFB's self vote (newbie/scum)
The rest is pretty good imo (good)
3 - AB-SO-LUTE-LY HORRIBLE. You can't mention power roles like that. (VERY scummy, newbie)
4 - His 'defense' about the power role thing is bad, but a bit newbie.
(newbie, scummy part, reasonably good part)
5 - not that much content
6 - questions everyone. null, easy for scum to do and pretty pro-town for townies (null)
7 - a bit slippery perhaps, but not bad overall (null/good)
8 - he reiterates his points here (scum/null)
9 - only questions, no content. (null)
10 - this question isn't that bad, but it doesn't contribute that much (null/slightly good)
11 - no content
12 - no content. This is starting to get scummy. (slightly scummy)
13 - reiterating (scummy because no content)
14 - null, but at least some content
15 - not that bad (null/good)
16 - no content
17 - reiterating the same thing again (scummy)
18 - interesting point about the semi lurkers (good)
19 - good, actually
20 - ebwop
21 - No content.
22 - Reiterating his point against LK again. (scummy/null)
23 - His logic doesn't seem too scummy here (good)
24 - pretty good

Alright, I'm stopping here for now, I'm getting tired. Overall, KrisReizer was horribly scummy. Afatchic is generally newbie and rather scummy, but he has some good posts.

At some point (around his tenth post), his posts start becoming repetitive and he spends more time calling out inactive players, which is a scummy change of play style in my opinion. His posts before that period had good bits, but also a lot of scummy bits (especially the power role post).

In my opinion, Afatchic seems like a solid lynch for day 1. But of course everyone should bring up their favorite candidate. We should start working towards a lynch now, and everyone needs to pick someone, and then we can work towards a majority.

[sirdanilot]

Please don't vote for afat now until we have a vote count

MOD: Can we get a vote count?

I do this because I want to avoid afatchic being lynched prematurely. I have seen this happen in Mini 601, someone hammered accidentally and I don't want it to happen again.

OC, your point on not wanting to lynch an active player is completely wrong and useless. As brandi said at the beginning of the game, it's about what's

in

the content. Letting a suspect walk loose because the game may become less active is absolutely horrible play.

[sirdanilot]

what i would like to know is SirD, why did you do a PBPA of me for 24 posts and use that to make me look bad when i really had like 65 posts or something.

I explicitly mentioned that I had to stop at that time. To be honest, KrisReizer's extremely scummy history as well as the scumminess of your first 24 posts is enough for me to have a vote on you. If this is coming closer to a lynch, I am going to finish my pbpa to allow the potential hammerer to decide.

Still waiting for the vote count.

[sirdanilot]

A lot of information is good, but honestly I wouldn't want to see a 100 page day 1, since I would refrain myself from re-reading the game and posting pbpas since it would be too much work. This may seem a bit irrelevant at first, but practical things like these actually do matter. It allows scum to hide in a dense fog of 100 pages full of pointless discussions about irrelevant game theory, semantics or discussions between two people that don't really amount into anything, while actually useful things like bandwagons, good constructive posts or even scum slips may be left unnoticed.

I really think it's time to clear the fog and work towards a lynch, or even just a serious bandwagon.

But not before the mod comes in to post a vote count.

[sirdanilot]

Why is omni voting an uncounterclaimed cop?

Since FFB is not going to join us or be replaced for a while, this day is going to take a long while. We can't lynch anyone since there's a chance FFB counterclaims.

Clammy, please just find a replacement for FFB, there's no way he is coming back anyway.

[sirdanilot]

$%@^%#%#$!@$%$%@

unvote

Great. Two power roles outed. This day isn't going well at all.

Now, I don't want to get into mod speculation too much, but I'd be a bit surprised if there would be cop + doc. That combination is usually pretty town biased, so yeah light kun did have a point that there are probably mafia power roles.

We can't lynch until FFB or a replacement posts to counterclaim either of these claims (or not). Since I still hate FFB's self vote, I'm just going to vote him for now.

vote flyingfoxbat

And when I have the time I will post a pbpa on someone else.

[sirdanilot]

Hah. When I first read LK's statement, I thought 'hmm, nice one'. But then I read the preceding posts and it suddenly makes LK's statement completely stupid and ridiculous.

LK, SensFan doesn't want you to talk about the scum's optimal play, because it might be helpful to the scum and not to the town. So please, stop talking about it. Unless you're scum of course, please be my guest and go on in that case.

Everyone just keep in mind we can't lynch ANYONE until the mod gets a FFB replacement.

[sirdanilot]

Mod: Please replace drake_259, FlyingFoxBat and TheInvincibleCop

All inactive players should be replaced out.

[sirdanilot]

SensFan, that's a stupid reason to vote someone. Now, if you did that analysis, and then did a read on the player with not so many votes to see if they're scummy, okay, but just voting them based on that is stupid.

What do you think of my hitogoroshi pbpa a few pages back?

[sirdanilot]

SensFan, that's a stupid reason to vote someone. Now, if you did that analysis, and then did a read on the player with not so many votes to see if they're scummy, okay, but just voting them based on that is stupid.

What do you think of my hitogoroshi pbpa a few pages back?

For some reason, I thought SF posted the 'analysis' with the amount of votes people had, but it was OC. Sorry! OC, could you please reply to above post as if it were aimed at you.

[sirdanilot]

Electra, do you Counter Claim cop?

Please answer yes/no.

Electra, do you Counter Claim doc?

Please answer yes/no.

(don't worry, I'll talk normally when we get that out of the way )

What do you think of your predecessor's self-vote?
Why are you advocating to lynch a not counterclaimed power role day 1?
Why do you find me scummy? I'm curious.

[sirdanilot]

Krisreizer/afatchic was mafia. Time to reread the game I guess. We lost two power roles, this hurts the town VERY badly. Since cop+doc is a very good combination, I doubt that we have any more power roles, but anyway I don't really want to continue that discussion since it's mod wifom.

[sirdanilot]

Second, I guess I'll get things rolling by

vote: sirdanilot

What's the format where you can view a thread by a user? So I can organize my arguments better.

Why are you voting me? Could you first build a case against me, or give me something to defend against, before you vote me?

You can view all posts by a user by scrolling all the way down, then you see a menu 'all users', then select the user you want in that drop down list. Or, check the url of the page you're viewing. After the first & sign, you put userposts=(id of user). You can find the id of the user by visiting their profile and checking the url of that page. Sounds hard at first but it's very convenient when you're used to it.

It has to do with my role, which I don't really want to claim (and it's not a RB or vigilante) because it doesn't really help up to know if there's a serial killer or not at this point, so whatever. Believe what you want.

FoS Electra

One should always try to keep power role and night action speculation to a minimum unless it's necessary, you clearly didn't do that here. Not only that, but even though this isn't a claim, it suggests something about your role. This gives the mafia heaps and heaps of information, so this is a very scummy bit in my opinion.

Electra, I have some questions for you. What do you think about your predecessor, and especially his self-vote?

[sirdanilot]

Expect a post tomorrow or friday.

[sirdanilot]

Well, I'll answer your questions first, and then go look at your posts.

I don't really think anything about my predecessor's self-vote. Didn't he make one post and disappear? I find it curious that you keep bringing this up when there's not very much to be made of it.

This is a scum tell. Townie behavior would have been to try to give a clarification for the self vote, or some opinions about people's reactions to it. You should have actually brought it up yourself, without needing me to ask.

How is it scummy to suggest something about my role? :p If I'm doing that, then that means that I have a role. If I'm mafia, it's not necessary for me to give mafia heaps and heaps of information because I wouldn't have any of these heaps of info you speak of, and if I do have these heaps of info, then I'd be a silly power-role townsperson, not a mafia. :p

This is absolutely horribly scummy. You should not EVER suggest that you have a power role unless you're about to claim. You have no reason to claim right now. Nobody asked you to claim. It doesn't look like you're actually going to claim. Why would you give the mafia this information? You have absolutely no reason to. This behaviour is very scummy and anti-town.

Do not play the newbie card here, please. It does not work outside of newbie games, and actually a quick peek at your join date reveals that you're not a newbie of any sort.

You are also (intentionally?) misunderstanding/manipulating my argument. Of course you don't reveal you have a power role to give information to your partners. You use it to be able to fake claim later on, and you have evidence.

I think you are very, very scummy now. A lot of this comes off this post. Because of this, I am going to vote you.

vote Electra

Also, I do not mind the fact that you are suspecting me at all. I did not like, however, your baseless vote on me. In my opinion, one should always first post a case (or at least a reason to vote) and then vote. But since you posted something now, I will comment on it in my next post (coming up shortly).

[sirdanilot]

Okay. So,

The first thing you were doing is the whole voting yourself controversy, which is meaningless fluff. Although you can get "started" from true random voting, it's usually something like, 'OMG he used a dice he's scum'. Then people start arguing and it leads to a meaningless semi-bandwagon and then people argue about other things and so on. The point is, day 1 happens because of people posting not people random voting, and it's useless to dwell on that so much.

I basically started real discussion with this. I got people talking, and yes, I do honestly believe it's a scum tell to vote yourself. Voting yourself is almost never pro-town. There are only very few exceptions, and I don't even think I could name them, and this is not the place to speculate about that. Random voting is not a great way of generating information, but it is a way. Voting yourself simply promotes the joke phase. Because I bantered about the self vote, the game became more serious.

Serious discussion is pro-town. Joke discussion is anti-town (it becomes harder to tell scum tells from jokes). I promoted serious discussion.

I simply do not understand why you find this scummy at all. Why is promoting serious discussion scummy?

But that's not very important. The next many posts though, you did not say very much at all, and voted and "were suspicious" of a few people but never pursued anything. Your only PBPA was on someone who you decided wasn't suspicious afterwards. You also talked about power role stuff which wasn't really game-related.

I am not really following, I think you skipped a huge part of the game. What about my suspicions on LK? You simply ignored that? Also, I did two pbpas, on hitogoroshi (whom I indeed did not find suspicious) and on Afatchic. You did not mention the latter.

You say I talked about things that weren't game related. Quote them?

When it was coming down to Light or afat, you said this

"I actually like afatchic's defense here. And I clearly said that I would've been willing to lynch SensFan if he continued to refuse to give information, as town wouldn't do that.

Anyway, I do agree that Afatchic is pretty scummy, so I'm quite honestly a bit torn up on whom to vote...

I'm going back to LK, but I'm willing to compromise on Afat. "

You like afat's defense, however you think she's pretty scummy? And you're torn up, but you pick Light, which is (conveniently) the nonmafia member.

Now, this is a good point to discuss. With 'I actually like afatchic's defense here) I meant that the particular post was not anti-town. Afatchic's play was not that bad for a mafia member, and he made some pro-town posts, so yes I did not perceive that particular post as a scum tell.

I did think she was pretty scummy, hence the pbpa in which I concluded that she was scummy. Here, I was referring to the general play, not a particular post.

And yes, I thought LK was scum at the time. Convenient for mafia or town going wrong? Your argument results into WIFOM on this point.

"$%@^%#%#$!@$%$%@

unvote

Great. Two power roles outed. This day isn't going well at all. "

I feel like this is very fake sounding. :p And like, a very quick unvote, you don't really seem suspicious of such a suspicious claim.

I unvote uncounterclaimed power roles on day 1. It's not like I can't revote when someone counter claims and I found the first one more scummy, you know. That you find it fake sounding is not an argument.

Finally, you're angry at me about talking about power roles, and trying to pass this off as being suspicious, but you've been talking about power roles all game. Especially with this:

"Electra, do you Counter Claim cop?

Please answer yes/no.

Electra, do you Counter Claim doc?

Please answer yes/no. "

A power role is NOT going to want to out itself so easily. This sounds like mafia fishing.

Point taken. I now agree with you, I should not have posted that.

"We lost two power roles, this hurts the town VERY badly. Since cop+doc is a very good combination, I doubt that we have any more power roles"

more power role discussion you supposedly hate

Anyway, that's my case. Have fun with it.

Are people going to come and post anytime soon?

Ripped out of context.

Krisreizer/afatchic was mafia. Time to reread the game I guess. We lost two power roles, this hurts the town VERY badly. Since cop+doc is a very good combination, I doubt that we have any more power roles, but anyway I don't really want to continue that discussion since it's mod wifom.

So yeah, I discussed it a bit. Power role discussion should never go too far, and I do believe that I stopped in time. I specifically mentioned that I didn't want to make it a discussion subject.

Electra, your attack on me was not that bad. However, you more or less assumed that I am scum in a lot of your attacking points. And some points are just not scum tells, like your first point. Your only valid point on me is where I asked you to claim. Your attack on me does not scream that you are scum (unlike the post above that one), but it could be perceived as you being scum. You took points that are easily abused by scum (like your first point). But you may be a towny on the wrong track and honestly scum hunting, so this attack is not a strong tell for you (scum nor town).

[sirdanilot]

EBWOP: Cross-posted with electra.

@ sirdanilot - Um, I feel that it is not necessary to justify a self-vote. What could be the possible justification for it? At the beginning you random vote, this person clearly decided it would be fun to random vote himself. I would never have brought it up because I find it meaningless. If you think it's a scum tell, then you are either overgeneralizing or being dumb or just mafia. You can tell me which one.

Thing is, you didn't even try. You say 'that person', but that person has the same role as you. We consider you more or less the same as FlyingFoxBat. Obviously, you do not read FFB's mind, but you do know his alignment (and we don't know it for sure!) so you should always spread some light on the person you replaced.

Also, I would never play the newbie card because I am not, and therefore because I'm not a newbie and I do have a fair amount of experience, maybe you shouldn't be telling me what is pro or anti-town because I know already. :p And I do not find my actions anti-town.

Especially because my actions include voting you.

I will tell you what is pro-town and anti-town in your actions. Telling me not to is even more scummy, since it'd make yourself immune to scum tells. That youa re experienced does not mean you aren't scum.

I love how you suddenly switch to the experienced card. Why be so touchy?

[sirdanilot]

I think your arguments about Electra are ok ones Sirdanilot, but I really doubt the third person to vote for AFatChic would be scum.

Why?

In that light, your arguments against Electra seem to be stretched and manufactured. I don’t know if it is from OMGUS, or you are a scum trying to create doubt, or both.

First my arguments are ok. Now they are bad. This doesn't make sense, what a horrible reason to vote me, OC.

My vote is not OMGUS at all. I specifically explained my vote and why it is not omgus.

But whatever the reason, you are trying to lynch one of the three players I am pretty sure are townies.

Vote: sirdanilot

And I am not sure at all that electra is a townie. I am entitled to my opinion, and I am only contributing to the town by scumhunting.

OC, how about build a case on me or something if you think I am scum? Because right now you are just assuming that I am scum which allows you to read my OK arguments to vote Electra in a different light. This is not a good reason to vote me.

Electra, you failed to address all my points and defenses in #523. Reply to it.

[sirdanilot]

sirdanilot: Why does a selfvote matter when it wasn't even posted by Electra but by the person she replaced?

Because she knows her alignment and we don't. I am not expecting her to post a complete analysis about it, but even just some speculation about why someone would do it would suffice.

Electra knows just as well as we do, you seem to be so focused on this that you don't really care about anything else.

This is not true. Stop lying. The fact that she refuses to talk about this is just a part of my case on her, there are a lot of other tells. Don't say things that aren't true, re read the last page.

I don't really think Electra is playing the experienced card, she's just saying she's not a newbie.

It's ok that she says that she isn't a newbie, but her saying 'I know very well what are scum tells and what aren't, so stop telling me' is pretty scummy in my opinion.

All in all, I am not impressed with Electra's defenses so far, OC's vote was just plain bad, and I defended myself against omni's points.

Also, this game has dropped in activity lately. Where are all the replacements we are waiting for?

[sirdanilot]

vote: sirdanilot

did you really defend against my comments or just call me a liar?

Your main thing still seems to be something Electra had nothing to do with, don't get me wrong I don't 100% think she's town, but your defences haven't really cleared you.

What are you talking about? Where did I call you a liar? Also, do you realize that you just put me at l-2 for no reason at all?

Why are you not responding to my defense? You just said that I called you a liar while I didn't.

My main point against Electra is a very scummy post she posted, by the way. Check the previous page for reference.

I have to say I miss input from everyone, including the people that already posted this day. Start posting, people.

And electra, you still haven't replied to me.

[sirdanilot]

I basically started real discussion with this. I got people talking, and yes, I do honestly believe it's a scum tell to vote yourself. Voting yourself is almost never pro-town. There are only very few exceptions, and I don't even think I could name them, and this is not the place to speculate about that. Random voting is not a great way of generating information, but it is a way. Voting yourself simply promotes the joke phase. Because I bantered about the self vote, the game became more serious.

Serious discussion is pro-town. Joke discussion is anti-town (it becomes harder to tell scum tells from jokes). I promoted serious discussion.

I simply do not understand why you find this scummy at all. Why is promoting serious discussion scummy?

It may be serious discussion to you, but it's not relevant to the game. The discussion of voting yourself is like a discussion of random voting- it's a meta discussion.

Wait. How was this not relevant to the game? Someone self-voted in the random voting phase. I discuss how it's wrong. How is this not relevant to this game?

I believe that you have to concede this point.

I am not really following, I think you skipped a huge part of the game. What about my suspicions on LK? You simply ignored that? Also, I did two pbpas, on hitogoroshi (whom I indeed did not find suspicious) and on Afatchic. You did not mention the latter.

You say I talked about things that weren't game related. Quote them?

While you had suspicions on Light, that's not really indicative of being scum or town- either would have to have or pretend to have suspicions in order to not be suspicious.

Sorry, I somehow missed the whole thing on afat. This does lessen my suspicions somewhat, but it's not really something a scum wouldn't do, as you were 3rd on the bandwagon.

But it's not scummy in itself, so you cannot use this as an argument. You're making a mistake here. You try to see things in the light of me being scummy, which is wrong as it clogs up your view of me.

In addition, you said "In my opinion, Afatchic seems like a solid lynch for day 1. But of course everyone should bring up their favorite candidate. We should start working towards a lynch now, and everyone needs to pick someone, and then we can work towards a majority. " which is allowing to town to pick another candidate on their own- but you can say that afat was your first choice to make you less suspicions later.

Yes, I did allow the town to pick someone else, if they wanted to. What's scummy about this?

As for non game related-

"Ugh... talking about power roles is wrong. It only helps the scum, and town can't be sure they're a power role anyway until they claim, and that's only a last resort. Just generally, usually you shouldn't mention power roles until endgame. "

Ripped out of context

. That was very game related, as I posted it in response to afatchic's scummy post which discussed power roles. Why do you pretend it's not game related?

"Kmd, I'm not accusing you of this here, but just keep in mind that too scummy =/= towny, and too towny =/= scummy. Because if that were the case, every mafia game would just be one big pool of WIFOM. "

Again, how is this not game related? I told this to kmd to ensure that he wouldn't fall into a bad reasoning like that. How is this scummy?

"IRC mafia is completely different than forum mafia. IRC is more setup puzzling while forum mafia is deducing scum tells from things people have said. You'll even notice that the things that are used in one form of mafia are sometimes scumtells in the other form. Ie.: voting someone because someone said something suspicious in IRC mafia is bad, and trying to guess the setup is bad in forum mafia. Although there are obviously many exceptions to this. "

In response to someone mentioning irc mafia. This was a bit of a sidestep, not really game related, but it was in response to someone and it did not promote further discussion.

Also, I find it interesting that you call out afat on prodding lots of inactives ("his posts start becoming repetitive and he spends more time calling out inactive players, which is a scummy change of play style"), but you spend a lot of the game asking for vote counts and prodding as well.

No, I did not find him prodding players scummy. What I did find scummy, is the fact that he flipped from posting a lot of content to not posting a lot of content, but keeping the same amount of posts, and he filled those posts with non-content (ie. prodding players). I believe that I have posted a consistent amount of content throughout the game, together with my prodding. I've posted some prodding-only posts too, but I didn't do it to appear active.

Now, this is a good point to discuss. With 'I actually like afatchic's defense here) I meant that the particular post was not anti-town. Afatchic's play was not that bad for a mafia member, and he made some pro-town posts, so yes I did not perceive that particular post as a scum tell.

I did think she was pretty scummy, hence the pbpa in which I concluded that she was scummy. Here, I was referring to the general play, not a particular post.

And yes, I thought LK was scum at the time. Convenient for mafia or town going wrong? Your argument results into WIFOM on this point.

I don't really have a response, it's an okay defense, but I don't really believe it.

The defense is okay, so you have to concede the point. I find the 'I don't really believe it' to be pretty scummy, by the way.

I unvote uncounterclaimed power roles on day 1. It's not like I can't revote when someone counter claims and I found the first one more scummy, you know. That you find it fake sounding is not an argument.

Again, a matter of perspective.

I'm skipping a few parts because there's nothing to respond to.

Yes, a matter of perspective, and again, I properly defended myself.

Electra, your attack on me was not that bad. However, you more or less assumed that I am scum in a lot of your attacking points. And some points are just not scum tells, like your first point. Your only valid point on me is where I asked you to claim. Your attack on me does not scream that you are scum (unlike the post above that one), but it could be perceived as you being scum. You took points that are easily abused by scum (like your first point). But you may be a towny on the wrong track and honestly scum hunting, so this attack is not a strong tell for you (scum nor town).

Unfortunately, I find this paragraph scummy. Especially the out that you're giving me- you're saying that I might be a towny on the wrong track. If I decide to change me mind and believe that, then we can be friends again, right? :p Reconciliation is scummy.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not sold on you being scum or anything, I'm not going to push for your lynch intensely. However you are still my most likely candidate, and so the point of this is to see if other people agree with me and if what I'm saying makes sense.[/quote]
I said that, since your attack isn't a scum tell. I have other scum tells on you. Although in this post, I do find it scummy that you say 'but I still don't believe it' when I defended myself so properly that you cannot find a response. You also resorted to assuming that I am scum a few times, which is also scummy.

[sirdanilot]

Well, this isn't really getting anywhere, is it.

Electra is the best lynch for the day, or at least worth debating more about. OC comes next, since I don't like the reasons he voted me for. I am going to do an OC re-read.

OC PbPA

Firstly, note the infrequency of OCs posts. This is not a scum tell in itself, but it's worth noting.
0 - Random vote brandi (null)
1 - The infamous jokey-vote on KrisReizer, which I deemed a town-tell at the time. Thing is, it continued the joking phase of the game, essentially giving OC a second random vote, krisreizer. So yeah, I don't think this is that good (scummy)
2 - This game theory post is not that bad. However, he says it's important to get people to vote, but a second random vote just doesn't help in my opinion. And then he says that voting so much that 'votes lose their value'is bad. And he admits that his second random vote was a joke vote, so yeah I think this is scummy too. (scummy)
3 - He doesn't approve of self-voting, and self voting is bad, so good.
4 - not that bad
5 - I don't like this. Lurking is not a scum-tell at all times, since there may be tons of reasons for lurkers to lurk, including many that are not game related. (scummy)
6 - BAD BAD BAD BAD. He prefers to lynch inactive players over active players that are scummy (and yes, lk was scummy at the time). Not a way to play the game. (very scummy)
7 - The beginning of the bantering about hito's play style.
8 - more bantering about his play style, game theory
9 - BAD too, more or less the same as 5, but now he tells people to do the same as he does. (scummy)
10 - This is scummy. He explicitly doesn't take a stance on LK, he even speculates between power-roles and scum. He said lk seemed 'excited' about the game, how is that a tell of any sort? (scummy)
11 - says he'll post later that day
12 - ... and he posts 9 days later. 'Not a big fan of lynching active players', that's a scum tell as I mentioned earlier. He limits himself to the two biggest suspects and decides to vote afatchic. In my opinion, not really something a mafia wouldn't do to his partner, but not sure. (scummy-null)
13 - Bad. The sheer quantity of votes doesn't matter that much, he doesn't take the reasoning and situations into account at all. An effort to look helpful. (scummy)
14 - more bantering, this post isn't that bad though
15 - This is one of the most interesting posts.

Clearly the votes prior to Kmd4390 role claim are not part of the scum faction. The only exception I would make to that is the potential that TheInvisibleCop could be a scum ruse and that he failed to remove his vote prior to going inactive.

So that makes someone2 and Electra definitely not part of the scum group with AfatChic (still could be SK)

I wonder why you're so sure about that?

Although SensFan switched his vote back to Afatchic after the role claim by Kmd4390, he did it right away and scum would probably not do that.

I think this reasoning is flawed, scum could very well do that, since kmd was WAY less likely to be lynched than afat, and they'd want to distance themselves from afat before it'd be too late.

16 - And I have told you why this post was so bad on the previous page. Quoting my own post for reference.

I think your arguments about Electra are ok ones Sirdanilot, but I really doubt the third person to vote for AFatChic would be scum.

Why?

In that light, your arguments against Electra seem to be stretched and manufactured. I don’t know if it is from OMGUS, or you are a scum trying to create doubt, or both.

First my arguments are ok. Now they are bad. This doesn't make sense, what a horrible reason to vote me, OC.

My vote is not OMGUS at all. I specifically explained my vote and why it is not omgus.

But whatever the reason, you are trying to lynch one of the three players I am pretty sure are townies.

Vote: sirdanilot

And I am not sure at all that electra is a townie. I am entitled to my opinion, and I am only contributing to the town by scumhunting.

OC, how about build a case on me or something if you think I am scum? Because right now you are just assuming that I am scum which allows you to read my OK arguments to vote Electra in a different light. This is not a good reason to vote me.

Electra, you failed to address all my points and defenses in #523. Reply to it.

This re-read made OC rise on my suspicion list.

FoS OC

. I don't feel comfortable voting him over Electra yet though, I want to hear more from him first.

[sirdanilot]

I'm curious as to what makes everyone I attack decide to vote me. It just seems too OMGUSy.

You're an experienced player and you should know very well that voting for someone that attacked you isn't always OMGUS. In our case, it wasn't. And I love how you use this empty statement to appear active, whereas a lot is going on right now (my pbpa on OC, the fyzxs debate, you still haven't properly defended yourself against my accusations, you are currently voting me over a bunch of null tells and bad logic that I defended properly against).

Another scum point for Electra.

[sirdanilot]

Omni: I want to hear more from OC first. I suspect Electra very, very seriously, and I need to see a lot before I will stop voting him.

Can we please just lynch him? He's so obviously scum.

Why?

Only scum would talk about scum points.

False, completely untrue, not backed up, baseless assertion.

I don't even know what the fyzyx debate is about. It's arguing about arguments.

Get involved. A towny would have gotten involved into at least

some

of these big things.

And you didn't defend yourself against my accusation, so yeah, another... SCUM POINT.

[sirdanilot]

As for defending against you, I don't waste my breath for scum.

Well, then this is another scum tell. Refusing to defend yourself. I have to mention that you started out reasonably well with your case against me (it had many flaws in it, but they didn't look very intentional or scummy), but now you've dropped to a way greater level of scumminess. I think we caught one, town!

@ omni - It has to do with (1)my arguments against him,(2) my intuition, (3)and the fact that there's no one else that ranks scummier than he does in my eyes. (hence, I'm voting him)

1. I defended myself against most of your arguments, you didn't respond it it.
2. That's not a valid reason.
3. And I just proved that you have no valid reason to find me scummy, especially because you didn't reply further to my defenses.

As for getting involved... I don't see SensFan and fyzyx getting involved in our little debate, guess they must be scum too!

No... you have to get involved in at least some of those debates. Fyzyx and sensfan are debating with each other, and that's fine too. Anyway, right now you are refusing to debate with me ('I don't waste my breath on scum'), meaning you aren't really very involved in the game at the minute.
----

Welcome to the game, iamausername.

[sirdanilot]

@ sirdanilot - I don't think it's fair to say that I'm not getting involved. Let's look at what other people have done recently.

TheInvisibleCop Brandi - just replaced.
omni - ????? pls answer all my questions bc I don't like intuition. sadface
SensFan - rarrgh, fyzyx, craplogic, overdefensive, rarrgh
sirdanilot - rarrgh, omgus vote: electra, you're so scummy for finding me scummy
OverCaffeinated - last post sept 26, agrees with me, is a cool (but inactive) person :p
fyzxs - rarrgh, sensfan hito scummy rarrgh!
Electra - rarrgh, sirdanilot scummy!
hitogoroshi - last post sept 30th, last few posts = angry defense and OMGUSy vote
someone2 - last post sept 15th

And what are you trying to say. The fact that other people aren't getting involved doesn't mean you don't have to get in involved. Bad excuse.

sirdanilot, you have not done much to allay my suspicions of you. The reason that I have not really bothered to respond to your defenses is that I don't find them very important anyway; it's questionable to me whether my beliefs or your beliefs are correct.

Why do you bother to attack me if you're not going to respond to my defenses. The purpose of attacking someone is to see their defense, and react to that.

I don't get what you mean with the sentence "it's questionable to me whether my beliefs or your beliefs are correct." So basically you mean that you're not sure that I'm scum or something? What?

But your reaction to me is a very scummy reaction - especially because I feel like my vote on afatchic at the time I made it was not something scum would have done since the bandwagon had essentially fallen apart. You FOSed me very quickly when I voted you, and then voted you, all the while giving me an opportunity to just "be a towny on the wrong track." This means that to you, if I admit that I made a mistake, then I'm a town, but if I continue to pursue you, despite other evidence, I must be mafia. This doesn't really sit right with me.

I may have FoSed you very quickly, but I explicitly mentioned why my fos/vote was not omgus. It was an attack on a very scummy post that you had made, and I felt that I couldn't let your scummy behaviour slip just because you were voting me and it'd look like OMGUS. I think that would have been scummy behavior, actually. I didn't give you the opportunity to be 'towny on the wrong track', I said that your case on me could have been interpreted that way. Your scummy posts could not.

Admitting a mistake does not make you town, nor does continuing to pursue someone mean that you are scum. However, I do not agree with the fact that you refuse to reply to my accusations of you and my defenses to your attacks, which is an important reason that I find you scummy.

Scum is much more likely to be inactive than town because they don't care as much.

This statement is completely false. Inactivity can be caused by many things, and a lot of those things aren't game related at all. Because of that, you may never speculate on why someone is inactive (unless it's really blatant lurking and they only post contentless one liners when it's convenient for them or something).

[sirdanilot]

[quote=iamusername]
sird is being very, very OMGUSy with Electra. His defence to her case on him is pretty good, but his case on her is terrible.
[/quote]
Why is my case on her terrible? I think I pointed out quite a few scum tells in her posts. I explicitly mentioned why my attack on her was anything but OMGUS. I do not feel that he fact that she's voting me should stop me from pointing out scum tells in her posts.

I just get tired of people that always keep saying 'omgus omgus omgus' when that's very often not the motive.

[sirdanilot]

I explicitly mentioned why my attack on her was anything but OMGUS.

This doesn't mean it isn't.[/quote]
You didn't even address my point on why it isn't OMGUS. Come on, you can do better than that.

Why is my case on her terrible? I think I pointed out quite a few scum tells in her posts.

This is fair, though. It is quite unreasonable of me to make a comment like that without backing it up.

One should always try to keep power role and night action speculation to a minimum unless it's necessary, you clearly didn't do that here. Not only that, but even though this isn't a claim, it suggests something about your role. This gives the mafia heaps and heaps of information, so this is a very scummy bit in my opinion.

As Electra already pointed out, this doesn't make any sense. You're saying she's giving the mafia 'heaps of information', which is scummy. But if she's scum, she can't be giving

herself

information she already has. You can say her actions are anti-town for this reason, but that's a different thing to scummy.

Let me re explain. I'll do this using two hypothetical situations.
1. Electra-scum: Electra wants to be able to fakeclaim later on. Because of that, she more or less puts some hints in her post, trying to build up a fake claim.
2. Electra-town: Electra wants the town to know she has a power role, but she doesn't want to claim. Because of that, she just feels like saying 'hey, let's hint towards me having a power role!'. Obviously, this behaviour is anti town, since she'd just be painting a huge target on her back.

So yeah, don't you think 2 is extremely unlikely and just accomplishes the exact opposite of what she wants? I think 1 is way more likely, though neither are optimal plays.

This is a scum tell. Townie behavior would have been to try to give a clarification for the self vote, or some opinions about people's reactions to it. You should have actually brought it up yourself, without needing me to ask.

Unless you can provide me with a whole bunch of links that show a trend of townies being more likely than scum to account for their predecessor's random votes, I will not believe that this is anything other than complete nonsense.

These two things were the entire basis of your original vote. I find this fairly weak.

A townie would try to give at least a clarification. Selfvoting is a scum tell, and a townie would try to imagine what would've moved his predecessor to perform such a scum tell. I know this from my own experience, but no I can't provide links.

[sirdanilot]

I explicitly mentioned why my attack on her was anything but OMGUS.

This doesn't mean it isn't.[/quote]
You didn't even address my point on why it isn't OMGUS. Come on, you can do better than that.

Why is my case on her terrible? I think I pointed out quite a few scum tells in her posts.

This is fair, though. It is quite unreasonable of me to make a comment like that without backing it up.

One should always try to keep power role and night action speculation to a minimum unless it's necessary, you clearly didn't do that here. Not only that, but even though this isn't a claim, it suggests something about your role. This gives the mafia heaps and heaps of information, so this is a very scummy bit in my opinion.

As Electra already pointed out, this doesn't make any sense. You're saying she's giving the mafia 'heaps of information', which is scummy. But if she's scum, she can't be giving

herself

information she already has. You can say her actions are anti-town for this reason, but that's a different thing to scummy.

Let me re explain. I'll do this using two hypothetical situations.
1. Electra-scum: Electra wants to be able to fakeclaim later on. Because of that, she more or less puts some hints in her post, trying to build up a fake claim.
2. Electra-town: Electra wants the town to know she has a power role, but she doesn't want to claim. Because of that, she just feels like saying 'hey, let's hint towards me having a power role!'. Obviously, this behaviour is anti town, since she'd just be painting a huge target on her back.

So yeah, don't you think 2 is extremely unlikely and just accomplishes the exact opposite of what she wants? I think 1 is way more likely, though neither are optimal plays.

This is a scum tell. Townie behavior would have been to try to give a clarification for the self vote, or some opinions about people's reactions to it. You should have actually brought it up yourself, without needing me to ask.

Unless you can provide me with a whole bunch of links that show a trend of townies being more likely than scum to account for their predecessor's random votes, I will not believe that this is anything other than complete nonsense.

These two things were the entire basis of your original vote. I find this fairly weak.

A townie would try to give at least a clarification. Selfvoting is a scum tell, and a townie would try to imagine what would've moved his predecessor to perform such a scum tell. I know this from my own experience, but no I can't provide links.

[sirdanilot]

EBWOP: woops double post and quote tags :/

[sirdanilot]

OC, would you like to reply to my case on you? You simply blatantly ignored it, and I'm very disappointed since I spent a long time on that case. Post #554 (last page). I also think it's scummy to avoid a case like that, a towny would've jumped on it and commented on the things he doesn't agree with.

[sirdanilot]

OC, would you like to reply to my case on you? You simply blatantly ignored it, and I'm very disappointed since I spent a long time on that case. Post #554 (last page). I also think it's scummy to avoid a case like that, a townie would've jumped on it and commented on the things he doesn't agree with.

I saw your post but didn’t know how to respond. I whole heartedly disagree with what you think is scummy and what you don’t. I constantly disagree with much of what you have to say.

More OC-scum tells, this is bad. I don't care if you don't know how to respond, if I post a case against you, you reply to it. If you disagree with something I say, you point it out, and you say why you disagree with it.

To specifically get to why I voted for you, it is just because you voted for Electra who was the third person to vote to lynch for AFatChic who ended up being scum. I really doubt that the scum would purposely vote early on for one of their own and that they would keep their vote on him long enough to lynch him. Especially on a day one.

I am worried that this is some sort of scum bandwagon to get rid of the couple of townie who proved themselves on day 1 by their votes. I much rather go after someone who is on my list I made back on post 495.

So you think Electra is town. Does me voting him, backed up by a good case, make me scummy? Nope, it doesn't.

TheInvisibleCop
omni
sirdanilot
drake_259
hitogoroshi

I really don’t have any clue who on this list is more scummy then the next. I just don’t feel confident enough to vote for Electra.

Then re-read. Get involved. If you see a scum tell, point it out. Do something, because right now you're not contributing to the town at all.

[sirdanilot]

I think everyone is waiting for everyone to post, [jas]. So someone needs to break that loop and post something, I guess.

OC, do you have any comment to my reply?

[sirdanilot]

Alright, I think I am going to unvote Electra for now, since that explanation is at least plausible.

unvote Electra

However, I have not completely cleared Electra yet. Not at all, in fact. I just want to have more information before we take that risk though.

I have said numerous times that I suspected OC and I did not like his reaction to my PbPA on him, so I am going to vote OC.

Vote: OverCaffeinated

Vote sirdanilot

What sirdanilot has said in various posts strikes me as particularly scummy. For reasoning, I looked back through Electra and Iamausername's posts and responses you made and while their posts make sense considering their perspectives, yours do not.

Why do my posts not make sense?

Perhaps my biggest 'scum' reading on you is that your responses are a mixture of 'informed mafia' pretending to be a 'good townie'.

Uhm, how am I 'informed mafia'. Care to show me some hints that I've missed?

You can't have your cake and eat it too when your actions are a contradiction.
Corvuus

What.

Alright, I am going to trim this post down a bit so it includes only the accusations against me and not the context (which is important too, and I will assure you that I've read all that, but it's not something I have to reply to). I'll also insert some numbers into your quotes to make it easier to reply and for others to read the reply.

They argue back and forth and then post 525 by OC sums up my thoughts.
(1)Mainly that Sir is trying too hard, (2)his argument isn't strong,(3) he can't be convinced that she is scum, (4)yet he is trying to be methodical in saying that he is developing suspicion and then thinks everything she has said makes her scum, etc. (5)I don't think Electra needs to defend against her prior's self-vote. While her claim is unusual and would cause us to poke at her (which Sensfan, etc. eventually did) everything else about her doesn't fit scum.

1. Where did OC say that I am trying too hard. Anyway, what do you mean with this. Am I trying too hard to get Electra lynched? Don't you think it's normal for a towny to push a bit to get their suspect lynched.
2. OC didn't say my argument weren't strong. He even said "

I think your arguments about Electra are ok ones Sirdanilot

''. So this point is not valid.
3. Why can I not be convinced that Electra is scum? At that time, I really suspected Electra a lot, and I had good reasons for it.
4. Now this is an interesting point. So basically you are saying that I am trying to suspect her and then go assume that she's scum, look back and find a lot more scummy posts. A tactic like that is indeed scum, but I'd love to see some examples where I used such a tactic, because I didn't.
5. I still think that it would've been natural for a towny to have said something like 'I find my predecessors self vote a bit weird' or like 'maybe he was confused or something?' or something like that. Scum would have less motivation for that. Anyway, I had a lot of other tells on Electra at the time, and this was just one of them.

The sir vs. Electra dies down with Sensfan and fyxyx dominating the topic. Instead of commenting on this on-going fight, Sir ... attacks OC, and tries to paint it as not OMGUS or anything like that but as methodical and thought out based on OC's posts...but the reason is because OC voted for him. Post #554. Post#572.

Nope. The reason wasn't because he voted for me.

How is this a scum tell. I decided to post a PBPA on a player, since I thought that the reasons of his vote were a bit weird. I would've done that if he had voted for someone else too, with such flimsy and bad logic.

Just tell me how this is a scum tell and how this contributes to the case on me.

Post#580 by iamausername is good for interaction between Sir and Electra. Sir has no case but keeps pushing it, etc.

Huh what. Care to elaborate?

Sir is the one who i have problems with, and it is the seeming mixture of trying to go after them (for weak reasons) and yet trying to make them sound like real reasons and townie actions (and failing). He didn't need to do anything like that except demand Electra claim which would have been normal.

Ah, but your logic is bad here. You are assuming that I am scum. 'Trying to make them sound like real reasons' is not an objective description of my actions, but is an argument based on the assumption that I am scum, and then you look back and see that it 'fits'. Be very careful of logic like that, since it's very easy to fall for.

But just to keep on track: Sird fits in all of this. I also checked back from day1 and Electra's doc point of view, and Sird's actions fit into this. Maybe I am tunneling too much and seeing what I want to see but in the end, i stand by my vote.
Corv

Again, but this time, you even say it yourself. You assume I am scum, you see it 'fits' with my actions. See above for how bad that logic is. Remember that at the time I didn't know Electra was going to claim doc. Town can suspect other town, you know, it's in fact very likely that this happens multiple times to every player. Also, Electra is not even cleared yet.

[sirdanilot]

I already said what I think about her claim.

The 'overdosed' thing is pretty interesting, though. I don't think we should discount the possibility that flavor may actually mean something in this case, but we shouldn't assume it for now.

I don't think we'll get an answer, but it never hurts to try:

MOD: DOES THE 'OVERDOSED' FLAVOR SAY ANYTHING ABOUT HOW AND BY WHOM SOMEONE WAS KILLED?

Corvuus, I defended myself against you, why didn't you reply to that? Does that mean that I defended myself well enough that you don't suspect me anymore, because in that case I'd expect an unvote.

Hi OC

It was plainly obvious you were a townie Electra, and it really sucks that you had to claim to prevent getting lynched.

No, it wasn't obvious at all.

Interestingly, several people that had a lot to do with Electra needing to roleclaim were also on my scumlist from their voting pattern on day 1.

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark and I think it's Sirdanilot.

And LOL at your OMGUS vote.

So you think I am scummy. Why? Do you mean the bad reasons in your post a few pages back?

The fact that I voted Electra does not mean that I am scum. At most, the last person voting her, forcing her to claim, was Corvuus, so if that's a legitimate reason maybe you should be suspecting him.

My vote wasn't OMGUS. I've posted a PBPA on you and I concluded you were scum. The fact that you try to call that OMGUS more or less confirms that you are scum. A townie would've defended himself against my PBPA, you simply ignored it.

Guys, let's end this day, let's lynch OC. He's scum. I've posted a PBPA on him, you can see his scumminess in his reaction to me, do you guys need anything else?

Oh, and FYI: He didn't vote afatchic either day 1, and I think that this is one of the reasons he 'suspects' me?

Pot, kettle, black...

[sirdanilot]

Vote: sirdanilot

Why?

Anyway, could someone at least give a slight hint that they are actually reading my posts, since everyone seems to be voting me but nobody actually replies to the content of my posts. For example, my case against OC or my own defense against corvuus.

Corvuus - why are you still voting me if I'm confirmed town? And if you're wondering why I say that I am confirmed town, it's because clearly my defense against you was so perfect that you don't see the need to reply to it at all. So, unvote me or reply to it.

I have said numerous times what I think of Electra, and I'm not going to say it again. You say that you're going to 'tunnel' on me and SC, yet you simply ignore my posts.

[sirdanilot]

To prevent a lynch of sirdanilot before I'm done playing with him/her,

unvote.

Thank you. Also, I fail to see how my username

sir

danilot leaves my gender ambiguous

sirdanilot: (1)What do you think of being lynched in this manner? (2)Do you feel it would be beneficial to the town in any way? (3)Who amongst your attackers do you consider scum?

1. It's bad, because nobody is listening to my defense and a lot of the people who have been voting me have either used bad logic or did not have enough reasons to vote for me at all.
2. No, it would not be beneficial to the town in any way. Maybe it would be if people kept attacking me and replying to my defenses, but people just vote me, I defend and they don't talk back, so if I would be lynched now it would be a shame.
3. OC. He voted me for bad logic (which I pointed out), then he simply ignored a huge pbpa of mine and then he shamelessly played the 'haha OMGUS' card when my vote on him was anything but that.

Wall-E, although you have unvoted me now, why did you even vote me in the first place? I'm curious.

Corvuus, I am really, really eager to reply to all your points that concern me, but it's just too much and I don't have the time for it this week. First you ignore me and now you cascade the thread with long posts, so it will take a while for me to catch up and I don't have the time for that now. Maybe somewhere this weekend.

[sirdanilot]

SF, you should have PMed the mod about this, not posted in the thread. What you did was very bad for the quality of the game. For example, now you've said that you thought him posting in MD was a town tell. You may think so, but it's far worse that now you've told us all that it was a town tell! What are you trying to achieve? If you think someone is cheating, tell the mod. I hope you stop misbehaving in the future, you know very well what I can do if you don't.

---

sirdanilot, do you have an opinion on Wall-E?

I found his reasonless vote very weird, but that's about it really. Why?

@ Corvuus - Alright, let me tell you something.

Cut down the length of your posts

. I really am not motivated at all to read all that, and it makes you and the thread as a whole extremely hard to reread. Try to use lists (use list tags and asterisks), quotes and summaries in the future instead to get your point across. I am going to ask you to summarize your case on me in one post, because I don't have the time to go through all of your posts and look up the bits that are addressed at me. This is not me being evasive, this is practical.

[sirdanilot]

Corvuus, you just failed at making a short, to the point case against me. Try again. Since I happen to have time right now, I'll address it, but make it shorter next time.

I think the reason that your posts are like this is because you start typing, and you preview, and you see 'oh but I have to add this' and then you preview again and you see 'oh but I need to clarify that still'. I'm not sure if that's how you do it, but however you do it, stop doing it, since it's not effective.

I'm going to talk like an IC here: If you're town, it's not effective since it makes rereading the game thread harder for other players, and some players may not have the time to address all your points.
If you're scum, it's not effective since it doesn't help to persuade the town. Town are less likely to be persuaded by such a long post.

@ Corvuus - Alright, let me tell you something.

Cut down the length of your posts

My entire case on you is basically meta.

It is on my assumption that you are an intelligent and reasonable player [although maybe not huge quantities of time to read huge verbose posts like mine !!!] and that you should have been able to understand the argument put forth by OC in post #525 which I would encourage you to re-read.

His argument (to summarize) is that despite Electra soft-claiming (which is anti-town) she did vote to kill Arafat in day 1 and is unlikely to be scum. So a 'self-vote' day 1, which is anti-town tell, and a soft-claim anti-town tell, aren't that big of a 'scum-tell' compared to her voting and lynching scum.

Thing is, OC acted as if voting scum cleared Electra. I don't think it did. It was a sort of a town tell, I still didn't think it worked out together with her scummy behavior. As town, I was at the time entitled to vote her over that, I don't see how this is scummy.

So that is why he said, perhaps confusingly, that your points were ok (in that Electra had anti-town actions) but that it didn't make sense to go after her for 'small' anti-town statements when there is the larger 'pro-town' tell of early vote lynching scum. This does not mean she is 100% confirmed townie (could be SK, etc.) but it just seemed weird to me that you would be voting for her and choosing that path.

I didn't consider her anti town (and scum in this case) tells small, I considered them big enough to vote her for.

So I think, perhaps due to time, you may have misinterpreted OC and electra's post (and why you defended against it the way you did) and my subsequent post where I quoted OC.

So perhaps it is an error of miscommunication. Either way, i had to ask myself, would you, being a reasoning intelligent person, be "willfully" ignoring evidence of day 1 and such? I re-read and looked at yesterday and today, and for the most part, other than OC and maybe 2-3 other posts, there is virtually nothing said about day 1.

I didn't ignore that, but I still feel I was entitled to vote Electra over her scummy behavior day 2, despite the fact that her day 1 behavior wasn't as bad.

That struck me as remarkably fishy. At the very least on day 2, there would be a recap, or the town would 'check for scum buddies', etc. Yet there was no scum buddy analysis at all practically. If we look at it in terms of scum buddies, then would Electra be Arafat's scum-buddy? I doubt it.

So this lead me into a WIFOM type situation. Why would people be ignoring day 1 unless it wasn't beneficial to them? And why would people be treating anti-town tells as scum-tells unless it was beneficial to them?

So I mentally tried to do a meta of Electra and then you Sir.

If Electra was Scum, then she BUS'ed Arafat for practically no reason. It is possible and she could have taken the 'pro-town points' gained from being a early vote on this into day 2... but instead she soft-claims and makes other unusual statements. If she was scum, I consider it highly unlikely that she would do this or that any 'reasonable' scum would think that this plan would work.

WIFOM, too scummy argument.

If she was an SK, and was just voting to kill Arafat to get the day to end, then that is possible. But why would a SK soft-claim and post the unusual stuff she did? She is either going to get lynched (and lose) or get NK'ed (and lose). If she is an SK, then she would have played horribly.

WIFOM, too scummy argument.

I could develop both scenarios more, but my point is that from a meta point of you, to assume her to make such a *horrible* play without any pressure at all seemed fairly far fetched. So while her claiming 2nd doc is unusual, it is an easier meta explanation for the actions she took.

Guess what, corvuus. Your logic is flawed. How could I have guessed she was going to claim doc later on? I couldn't. That's why I voted her, because I saw scum tells that were also anti town. Day 1 did not do nearly enough to compensate that. And that's why I unvoted after her claim, because the claim fits.

So to me, it seemed like you were going after a 'claimed doc/confirmed townie' and then I tried to meta you and see why you would do this.

She didn't claim at the time.

There is the obvious defense that "voting for someone for being scummy, lynching them, and then being wrong does not mean that the person voting is 100% scummy".

This is true. However, if you are trying to lynch someone

knowingly

on 'faulty' logic and you are wrong, then that IS scummy. So I don't (and perhaps still don't) understand why you voted for Electra, why you mis-read/miscommunicated OC's 525 post, and why you took certain actions of yours and ignored day 1.

My logic wasn't faulty. I didn't misread OC. I didn't ignore day 1.

So it is WIFOM-ish but I think it is valid.

One of my bigger meta-concerns is that a player can get through an entire game without saying a single scummy thing. They could be impossible to read. (which is why they should be lynched before lylo in that case). And it seemed to me that you are this kind of player. No 'single individual' post of yours is inherently "i am scummy rawr!" but ... very subtle. If you were scum, you could be ignoring small details in order to misrepresent and get others lynched while having to do very little yourself.

WIFOM, 'too towny' argument.

So my entire trap/meta concept was that you are this type of player. cautious, careful, and that you read and defend as necessary but overall you don't give any huge *scum vibes*. So I posted my half-developed thought on you and quoted OC's post #525 and you responded in a totally different way then I expected. (which made me think you are scum)

I don't think you re-read OC's post 525, nor do I think you actually saw what i was trying to say (although, I admit, I wasn't doing my best to make it clear). This struck me as fairly scummy. Wouldn't a townie always double check, re-read and be up to date? Only scum could just look at the 'present only' and 'coast through' and expect to win. Town can't do that.

Trust me, I did reread oc's post. How does me not understanding you is a scum tell? Doesn't it just mean that you have to reword what you're saying instead?

Soon after, you did a type of vote/OMGUS on me.

huh, where did I vote you? Either I am both having amnesia and I'm getting blind, or you really need to clarify this because I didn't vote you.

This changed my meta thinking of you to be a more sneaky/careful type where you comment minimally, read what others are doing and then you can 'rip' them apart to defend yourself, do a PBPA on them, and try to vote for them (without it appearing OMGUS) and you don't really care who just as long as it isn't you.

This is just speculation. I don't comment minimally, I point out suspicion as I see it.

This is not scum-hunting to me. It is an anti-town type of action to just 'coast' through. So that is when I wanted to start voting and putting pressure on you. For (1)not scum-hunting, (2)for just focusing on Electra (for what I view as weak reasons), (3)for not talking about day 1, etc. etc. It is all based on meta/WIFOM scenarios and not any particular individual post of yours. This is why I said I can not bring up a "scummy post" on you... it simply isn't there. However, it is rather your inaction (to scum-hunt or see flaws in your own logic) which struck me as scummy.

1. I was certainly scum hunting, I PbPAed a few players, I pointed out my suspicion of Electra and now OC. Day 1, I was suspicious of FFB, LK and afatchic, granted LK wasn't scum but you have to admit he was acting scummy. You cannot possibly tell me that I wasn't scumhunting.
2. I focused on OC as well.
3. No, I didn't really talk about day 1, but trust me that I kept it in mind.

The rest of your post, it isn't really a case on me. If you really want me to reply to certain parts of it, quote it and I'll be happy to reply to them.

In terms of what I would like to see from you (even if modkilled):

Read OC's post #525 again.
Do a meta analysis of Electra, and then maybe why there is so little analysis of day 1. (which could just be due to lack of time).


Corv

I re read OC's post. I might get to an Electra analysis at some point, although I don't really suspect her anymore right now, she's not cleared at all. She may be worth looking at day 3.

For now, I think we should work towards a lynch. Based on my PbPA on OC, and his reactions to it, I think OC is scum. He hasn't defended himself against it, which is why I think OC is the best lynch today.

[sirdanilot]

Can we play this game and forget about the mod incident please, since it's not game related at all. Thank you!

[sirdanilot]

Wall-E, either you stop talking about the out-of-game issue and drop your vote (unless you make an in game case on him, of course) or we lynch you.

Thank you!

[sirdanilot]

Uh, I don't give in to bullies.

You can stuff that truck in your butt, sir.

I was willing to drop it after SensFan. He's the one who brought this whole issue into the game (Yes, it is in-game), not me.

If you have something more interesting I can talk about, I'd be glad to hear what it is.

That is unacceptable. I am not just going to let you insult people like that and ruin the game by refusing to stop talking about out of game matters that never even should have entered the thread. You'll hear more.

[sirdanilot]

Stop. Talking. About. The. Cheating.

I'm still awaiting mod intervention here.

[sirdanilot]

I think Wall-e's a troll, honestly. The ad hominem and that recent pointless double posting and going on about the 'cheating' incident... If I get a better case on him, I may be willing to vote him, and I would hammer him to prevent a no lynch.

But for now, I still think OC is a better choice to lynch, for reasons I posted earlier. I don't think anyone has commented on those yet. Post #668.

[sirdanilot]

I'm not voting until I see a votecount anyway.

MOD: CAN WE GET A VOTECOUNT PLEASE

[sirdanilot]

I am not entirely sure now if Wall-E is just playing to troll or that he is genuinely playing. If the latter is the case, he's most definitely scum and I would hammer him asap.

I am still waiting for a reply from [jas] to a PM I sent him.

I would all urge you not to hammer him before I'm done with him. It would be bad for the game if Wall-E were really just a troll trying to ruin the game, and we lynched him because of that. We shouldn't lynch him for something like that, he should be modkilled or replaced out.

[sirdanilot]

I'm still waiting for OCs response.

Maybe it'd be a good idea to get this day deadlined, since nothing's really going to happen I think. I feel quite tempted to vote Wall-E, but I would appreciate OCs response first. It's not good to quicklynch someone in situations like this, we need to think it through carefully.

[sirdanilot]

Like this we really have no motivation to do anything. I would have really wanted to wait for OC to chime in, but something really has to happen now and I suspect Wall e enough to do this, especially with his vanilla claim.

unvote vote Wall-E

I really want more on OC tomorrow guys.

[sirdanilot]

OC PbPA

Firstly, note the infrequency of OCs posts. This is not a scum tell in itself, but it's worth noting.

Agreed and I need to post more.

1 - The infamous jokey-vote on KrisReizer, which I deemed a town-tell at the time. Thing is, it continued the joking phase of the game, essentially giving OC a second random vote, krisreizer. So yeah, I don't think this is that good (scummy)

I did it for the comedic value. Though I do agree that it didn’t help the town.

We agree on this point, then, that it didn't really help the town.

2 - This game theory post is not that bad. However, he says it's important to get people to vote, but a second random vote just doesn't help in my opinion. And then he says that voting so much that 'votes lose their value'is bad. And he admits that his second random vote was a joke vote, so yeah I think this is scummy too. (scummy)

Voting is good as it is important to force the scum to go on the record. It also gives us something to review in the end game. So voting and voting a lot helps, but if you vote too much (like for more then 50% of the players alive) it shows a lack of conviction and makes it seem like your early voting for your scum compatriots.

Yes, I agree that voting a lot helps. But the thing is, if you go as far as doing a second random vote, you are going way too far, and the vote will lose its meaning. Random votes can be helpful, but going as far as doing more than one of them makes it lose its meaning.

5 - I don't like this. Lurking is not a scum-tell at all times, since there may be tons of reasons for lurkers to lurk, including many that are not game related. (scummy)

I agree that lurking isn’t always a scum tell. But lurking tends to be a viable scum tactic in games where the players let them get away with it.

Still no reason to vote lurkers over scummy but active players. What you can do is note 'hey X is lurking' and asking for prods. If they happen to be active lurking, then yes you can attack them for that, but this wasn't the case at the time.

6 - BAD BAD BAD BAD. He prefers to lynch inactive players over active players that are scummy (and yes, lk was scummy at the time). Not a way to play the game. (very scummy)

It is unusual for the scum to let one of their own get lynched on day one. Baring a mistake, it’s usually impossible for the town to get enough momentum to lynch someone the scum don’t want them to lynch. That is why I am a proponent of setting the ground rules on lurking.

Now now. You're only getting worse here. The town should at all times try to lynch scum. I am very aware that the odds of hanging scum are low on day 1, but it is the discussion that lead to lynching someone that gives us potential targets. We can only do that if we lynch the most scummy player. Lynching people who lurk, disregarding their supposed alignment, beats the purpose of lynching. Remember that anti town =/= always scum. And especially with lurking, it may not even be anti town behaviour, but caused by external influences.

9 - BAD too, more or less the same as 5, but now he tells people to do the same as he does. (scummy)

I don’t see how this is bad. Refer to my response to number 5

And you may refer to my response above. This is what makes you scummy, bad logic AND trying to get others to believe your bad logic.

10 - This is scummy. He explicitly doesn't take a stance on LK, he even speculates between power-roles and scum. He said lk seemed 'excited' about the game, how is that a tell of any sort? (scummy)

I think I’m pretty good at spotting scum, but I (and many other people) sometimes get the behavior of a player with a pro-town power role confused with the behavior of scum. One of the “tells” that a player is scum is a lot of activity. Usually only very experienced players understand how to properly play a vanilla townie and have fun with it. Many newer players get bored with the game unless they have a fun role or are scum. Therefore activity level is indeed a tell and possibly an indicator that they are scum.

This is all just out of game and meta speculation. And that's not the worst. It didn't say anything at all about LKs alignment! He could be pro town power role or scum. Anyone could be scum, so the only thing you achieved is that you narrowed 'town' down to 'pro town power role'. And that is a very anti town thing to do, to speculate that someone may have a power role.

12 - ... and he posts 9 days later. 'Not a big fan of lynching active players', that's a scum tell as I mentioned earlier. He limits himself to the two biggest suspects and decides to vote afatchic. In my opinion, not really something a mafia wouldn't do to his partner, but not sure. (scummy-null)

This right here should have put me on your townie list.

Why? There was no counter claim so it would've been a bit weird to vote LK. I suppose you as OC-scum could have come up with a bad case on someone else, but that's also not a very easy thing to do. Just going with afatchic was probably the best thing for OC-scum to do at the time. And as I said, voting afatchic wasn't something OC-town wouldn't do either, therefore this part was a null tell.

13 - Bad. The sheer quantity of votes doesn't matter that much, he doesn't take the reasoning and situations into account at all. An effort to look helpful. (scummy)

I am at a total loss as to why you find this post scummy. This post was dead on and since I probably listed the remaining scum in a short list. I think that is why you are attacking me and this post. My logic seems simple and easy to understand, I think I just hit the nail on the head and that is why you’re attempting to find fault with it.

There's so much more to mafia than simply the quantity of votes. Sure, you could've analyzed this, but then check, 'hmm he has voted only two times, let's investigate that!'. Simply an quantitative analysis is just not enough. I will come back from my standpoint that it was very scummy I am going to have to agree with you on that.

15 - This is one of the most interesting posts.

Clearly the votes prior to Kmd4390 role claim are not part of the scum faction. The only exception I would make to that is the potential that TheInvisibleCop could be a scum ruse and that he failed to remove his vote prior to going inactive.

So that makes someone2 and Electra definitely not part of the scum group with AfatChic (still could be SK)

I wonder why you're so sure about that?

Although SensFan switched his vote back to Afatchic after the role claim by Kmd4390, he did it right away and scum would probably not do that.

I think this reasoning is flawed, scum could very well do that, since kmd was WAY less likely to be lynched than afat, and they'd want to distance themselves from afat before it'd be too late.

I think the reasoning is pretty solid. Those votes were done early enough that when they were made, afatchick wasn’t threatened by getting lynched. It’s these votes that actually put him in that position. And that is why those players are the ones that are least likely to be scum.

Afatchic was threatened from the moment that kmd claimed. I don't believe that SensFan is clear because of that at all (although I don't really suspect him at the moment). As for electra, you admit it yourself, he could've been SK. Re reading now, I can see that you were so convinced that he was town, but don't forget that alignments were unknown at the time.

As I have stated previously, I voted for you solely on the fact you were voting to lynch one of the two players that we knew from the day 1 vote record that they were most likely townies. That is a HUGE scum tell. Since then your OMGUS vote, your ceaseless attacking of Corvuus and this apparent affinity with SensFan have given me more reasons.

I am tempted to change my vote just to get the game moving again, but I just cant seem to find any candidate better then sirdanilot to vote for.

Electra could have been a SK, I found his actions day 2 unlikely for a townie at the time. I really don't see why this is such a huge scum tell. I'm not sure what you're referring to with my 'ceasless attacking of corvuus' nor my 'apparent affinity with SensFan'.

[sirdanilot]

Afatchic was threatened from the moment that kmd claimed. I don't believe that SensFan is clear because of that at all (although I don't really suspect him at the moment).

Who cleared her? I said Sensfan vote at the end of day 1 and the timing of it made her less likely to be mafia, but I never cleared her. As a mater of fact I’ve find this defensiveness you have with Sensfan to be evidence of a link.

Defensiveness? I just said that SensFan wasn't cleared at all with his vote. And me saying that I don't currently suspect him is not even defending him in the slightest. Stop looking for fake scum tells.

As for electra, you admit it yourself, he could've been SK. Re reading now, I can see that you were so convinced that he was town, but don't forget that alignments were unknown at the time.

Looking above, you see that I caveted in parentheses that they could still be SK. Of course voting patterns are not going to pick up unassociated scum. Truthfully I don’t even know how to find Serial Killers in this game. For all intents and purposes they post and vote like townies. Sucks when they are in a game.

As I have stated previously, I voted for you solely on the fact you were voting to lynch one of the two players that we knew from the day 1 vote record that they were most likely townies. That is a HUGE scum tell. Since then your OMGUS vote, your ceaseless attacking of Corvuus and this apparent affinity with SensFan have given me more reasons.

I am tempted to change my vote just to get the game moving again, but I just cant seem to find any candidate better then sirdanilot to vote for.

Electra could have been a SK, I found his actions day 2 unlikely for a townie at the time. I really don't see why this is such a huge scum tell. I'm not sure what you're referring to with my 'ceasless attacking of corvuus' nor my 'apparent affinity with SensFan'.

Yes, Electra

could

have been an SK. So could have anyone else. But Electra probably wasn't going to be one of the associated scum. And Electra's roleclaim was fitting with the text of night 1. Electra was of all the people, the least likely to be scum at that point.

Hush hush, you're fast forwarding. Remember that I removed Electra off my shortlist after she claimed. She didn't claim at the time I suspected her.

You have voted for Electra, you've voted for Corvuus who was the third vote on AFatChick, and you threw the hammer on Wall-E to save yourself.

Vote: Sirdanilot

Huh, wait... I don't remember ever voting corvuus, but my memory of this game is a bit foggy. And I just looked through all my posts and I never voted corvuus. I think you need to re read the game, or maybe it's just too early for me and I need to look better and reread the part where I supposedly voted corvuus.

I didn't throw the hammer on walle to save myself. You're doing a classic bad logic here, hammering town doesn't make someone scum. I kept waiting and waiting for you to post the reply to my pbpa, but you didn't, so I decided to move on. And guess what, the reply came in twilight! Now there's a small chance that this was coincidence so I didn't vote you for that, but it does say something, doesn't it.

[sirdanilot]

Huh, wait... I don't remember ever voting corvuus, but my memory of this game is a bit foggy. And I just looked through all my posts and I never voted corvuus. I think you need to re read the game, or maybe it's just too early for me and I need to look better and reread the part where I supposedly voted corvuus.

I just read back and you are right. I may have got Corvuus and Electra confused. I certainly had them high on my list.

You did keep your vote on Electra for a while though and you kept trying to make a case against her along with Sensfan.

Okay, so what's your case on me now?

I didn't throw the hammer on walle to save myself. You're doing a classic bad logic here, hammering town doesn't make someone scum.

No it doesn't, but if it wasn't for the wagon on Wall-E you would have been the one to get lynched. You were definetly saving yourself and as it turns out, at the expense of a townie.

I lynched wall-e because a)you didn't reply to the pbpa and b)wall-e acted extremely anti town and c)the day was taking too long.

I kept waiting and waiting for you to post the reply to my pbpa, but you didn't, so I decided to move on. And guess what, the reply came in twilight! Now there's a small chance that this was coincidence so I didn't vote you for that, but it does say something, doesn't it.

I am embarrassed to admit it, but I didn't realize at the time that the hammer had been thrown. I wouldn't have posted if it had realized it.

Why?

And for the record, I responded to your pbpa on me because Corvuus requested it.

Don't you think that responding to a case against yourself is pro-town enough to do without someone suggesting it?

[sirdanilot]

I think it's pretty likely that this day will end in a sirdanilot lynch, and I am OK with that.

Why would you be okay with that, if you're so convinced that someone else is scum.

Also I can see the case on omni and would be willing to compromise, but OC is my #1.

[sirdanilot]

Uh, why exactly did you claim town? Was there any reason for it at all, or am I just too tired or too blind here?

[sirdanilot]

So, I don't see any reason why everyone suddenly started claiming, but I am thinking OC is scum because he started it. Not sure why corvuus claimed but I didn't really suspect him that much to begin with so OC is definitely top right now.

Let's lynch OC.

[sirdanilot]

If you stick around but keep half-assing it like this, you're either not playing to win, or you are scum who has decided that you can get away with doing nothing by acting pissed off with the way the game has gone. Since the first option would mean you are breaking site rules, and I know you don't like rule-breakers, I would have to assume the second and vote you accordingly.

I'm playing to win. Just not wasting my time.

Seriously, I cannot comprehend why neither of Corvuus/Electra was lynched yesterday.

People aren't even reading my points, obviously.

Vote: OC

Huh what?

[sirdanilot]

Waiting for an SF post.

[sirdanilot]

...or a post by anyone. Guys, we all took a lot of effort to keep this game going, let's not waste all the effort. I can understand if not everyone is really very motivated to play this game anymore, but let's continue it, okay?

[sirdanilot]

Sens what do you think of my OC case and pbpa. You can find it quickly by reading my one player thread.

Also iamusername, that surprises me because first he says that he doesn't understand why corvuus or electra weren't lynched yesterday. Now, electra is dead so she can't be lynched anymore (and she flipped town doc) so then logical conclusion would be for him to vote corvuus, but after the statement he votes OC.

Maybe it's just me not paying enough attention or being too tired or something, but this sounds a bit weird to me.

[sirdanilot]

...mod, what's your decision? Abandon this game and waste all the time we put into it, prod everyone or find replacements (again)?

[sirdanilot]

Sorry to hear that you got an accident, SF...

Good luck with your read adel, you'll need it.

[sirdanilot]

Well, I'm happy with my OC vote. Maybe everyone should mention again why they're voting the person they are voting, as to get the game started once again?

[sirdanilot]

Whoah adel, that must have been an awful lot of work, thanks a lot for putting so much time into this game!

I'll use this to take a look at oc. If I'm correct, he had his vote on krisreizer (afatchic) on page two, then he voted inquisitor (sensfan). He put afatscum at l-1 page 15, then unvoted him for hito page 18, but then afat was already down to three votes (due to doc claim)

I'll read why he voted hito at that point.

Oh yeah, this was the statistical analysis where he found a really nice way to vote hito. I replied to his post but accidentally used 'sensfan' instead of 'oc' and I didn't get around to clarify that until OC disappeared (right before the lynch).

Hmm... this analysis didn't really tell me anything at all yet.

[sirdanilot]

I usually try to post once a day, and indeed if every single person posted once a day this game would be a lot more active, a lot more fun and we would have a lot more chance to win.

When he replaced in, I indeed had some suspicion of him buddying up to me, yes. Read SensFan's one player thread, post 3. Part of this may be due to an out of game reason actually: we both frequented a certain forum a few years ago, but the forum died, so it's quite the coincidence to 'meet' him in another forum that isn't even focused on the same subject. However, I voted him for it because I found it quite suspicious for him to drop down a random vote like that as well as the buddying, but then other people came in (I was still suspecting LK, etc.) SensFan is no longer near the top of my list.

[sirdanilot]

Looking forward to other players posting.

As I said I would post some content again now but I'm not going to post once a day if it's only you and me, adel.

[sirdanilot]

Looking at the graphic, I still don't really see a clear pattern. First, omni/adel's vote of wall-e day 2, but then again his day 1 voting behavior didn't really fit in so I'd have to go reread some players to find out.

Generally people who get on a scum wagon quite late tend to be more likely to be scum, although I am not completely sure of that theory. It may be flawed by now, especially for the more experienced players.

[sirdanilot]

I count it as a slight scumtell against sirdan, OC and hitogoro that they are new players who haven't been replaced.

Although I'm not

that

experienced, I'm at like 489 posts and your quota was 500 so I can hardly see that you view me as a very new player. Also, this is actually one of the things that is actually WIFOM. You should never speculate on why someone was replaced or not because the reasons for it are outside the scope of this game. So, don't do it.

[sirdanilot]

I count it as a slight scumtell against sirdan, OC and hitogoro that they are new players who haven't been replaced.

Although I'm not

that

experienced, I'm at like 489 posts and your quota was 500 so I can hardly see that you view me as a very new player.

um.... I've literally made 10 times as many posts as you. I figure that the line is actually somewhere between 500 and 1k game posts.

You said yourself your quota was 500. But whatever, I'm not going to continue to discuss something so unimportant like this.
[qute]

Also, this is actually one of the things that is actually WIFOM. You should never speculate on why someone was replaced or not because the reasons for it are outside the scope of this game. So, don't do it.

are you really attempting to instruct me as to what I may or may not speculate upon? I think you need to read Play to Win. If you choose not to capitalize upon something that can help you win, you are choosing to be a scrub. Newer players are far more likely to get replaced when they are town. Ignoring that fact is sub-optimal for successful play as town.[/quote]
Oh wow, you left me speechless for a couple of minutes here. Anyway I agree with hito that maybe newbies get bored and leave as town, but that doesn't mean newbies who don't get bored and leave are scum. Also I can hardly see myself as a typical newbie but that's just me being subjective.

[sirdanilot]

Ah yes I think I played most of the games over there but seriously they are hardly anything like on mafiascum and that was quite a while ago. What's your point? Why does it look bad on you, while still helping you?

Corvuus, I don't like you being like 'oh whatever let's just lynch them so we can move on and we can lynch the other one tomorrow'. That's not good town play. Also, saying 'vote X just a pressure vote' basically removes the entire purpose of your vote.

Happy New Year everyone.

[sirdanilot]

Adel, why are you setting up two lynches. Why are you locking the town into this position? Why don't you just go scumhunt and see who comes up suspicious tomorrow.

As for the case on SF, I am actually starting to see it (the buddying up to me) but of course I am 100% sure I am town, and you guys aren't. Adel, what I first want from you is a case. I have not yet seen one compelling case against me from you and now it seems like you're just hopping on the sirdan bandwagon. I recall omni hopping on and off like that several times in this game, so I am indeed also starting to see an omni/adel case. I'd probably have to reread though, and my procrastination will probably prevent me from doing that any time soon.

This is what I want to see. Nobody hammers me before adel posts a case, I am certainly not claiming before I see it, and adel is going to explain very clearly why she wants to lock herself into two people, while she hasn't even explained why the former is scummy, and while the latter is only scummy if the former isn't scummy, as well as how she was entitled to l-1 me at this point. I also haven't seen a playstyle reread, only the voting pattern diagram which was extremely helpful, don't get me wrong, but does not cover some of the things a play style reread could have. To be short, she analyzed, but she did not pull any conclusions out of it. Adel, although it's day 3, we're not at lylo yet and the game has not yet turned into a logical puzzle you need to solve.

I also like to hear more reasons for your vote. Just because now I am no longer a 'newbie'? You know what, newbie or experienced doesn't even matter in my book outside of newbie games since they are supposed to be experienced enough to play. That's why I can't stand it if people let scummy players get away by saying 'aww he's just a newbie'. Essentially you did just that before you saw SF say that I am not actually a newbie. Or you did the reverse (oh he's not a newbie? lynch him!). Depends on how you look at it. But even then there's a missing element: a scumtell. Have I seen an analysis from you on how I am scum? Nope. So even if being newbie or not matters, you don't have any reason to be voting me since there are no scumtells.

fos adel

[sirdanilot]

I think that omni, sirdan and OC not voting for afac at the end of day 1 is a scumtell against each of them. They were all very new players. I think that SensFan's vote for afac just before the lynch is a scumtell against him -- he is experienced enough to make sure he is on the wagon that lynches his scumbuddy.
someone's vote for afac is the only one I really count as a town-tell. I doubt that a newbie would vote for his scumbuddy and let his vote linger there like that through to a lynch.

I think that the SensFan and Sirdan wagons from day 2 stand a good chance of being on scum -- the alternatives were town wagons. I count those wagons as scumtells against SensFan and SirDan.

I count it as a slight scumtell against sirdan, OC and hitogoro that they are new players who haven't been replaced.

Your case on me is this:

1. Not voting afatchic
2. There having been a bandwagon on me
3. New player + not being replaced yet

I'll disprove all these points:

1. Your biggest scum tell on me. However, you accuse both OC and, very ironically, yourself of this as well! Meaning that the other two points against me should be making the difference. But they don't:

2. How is this my fault? Is this even a valid point at all? In short, what the hell are you talking about.

3. It has been disproven that I am a newbie by SensFan. Right when SensFan disproved this, you voted me.

Adel, you are a player that seems to make more sense than all the players who have ever been in this game. However, an easy analysis of your case on me proves that there's absolutely no basis at all to your case, that your logic is as flawed as it can be. I really don't like this.

If you want to lynch someone, you need to come up with a good case. If you want to plan a day ahead as well, you are not only going to need two damn good cases on the players you want to lynch, your logic of them being tied together must be pretty damn perfect too. Neither of this applies to you.

As for you gauging for reactions from other players, you just removed the point of your entire flawed case against me. I said this a few posts earlier, if you're going to say 'vote X I wanna see how he acts under pressure' then you just removed the entire reason for your vote. I can't see for what kind of reactions you're gauging here.

unvote oc vote adel

I'm sure you would know better if you were town.

more adel votes lalala

[sirdanilot]

It's all up to iamusername or hito now I guess.

Alright then, this is what is going to happen. Nobody hammers anyone yet. I will post a pbpa on omni/adel later today (in a few hours or so). I would start on one right now but I can't due to real life, okay.

Adel why wouldn't we go after hito instead of SF?

[sirdanilot]

Funny thing is Adel is now actually starting to look like newbie scum with things like "Would you consider moving your vote to SensFan if I moved my vote to him as well?".

Because she's anything but a newbie, I am not too sure what to think of this. Since I don't like to let people get away using the too scummy fallacy, my conclusion will have to be that my vote stands for now. Or she is playing a gambit that I am really not understanding right now.

However, I am not going to let this remain silent: I

am

seeing a case on SF as well. I am going to have to admit that his buddying up to me worked and he was never on my shortlist of suspects but right now I wouldn't be too surprised if he flipped scum, even if this is just a gut feeling.

But adel is acting really weird right now. I could hardly imagine adel-town playing so strangely. In fact let me run a small meta first of a town and scum adel game.

... I think I'd have to put more effort in the meta because it's seriously not really helping. The only thing I got is really flip floppy voting behavior as town and scum, no big pbpa's on people with both alignments. I checked one of the lover opens you played (town) and meta breaking mafia (scum) (maybe not such a good choice to run a meta...).

Oh forget it, I never believed in meta anyway.

omni pbpa (one player thread numbers)
2 - valid response to lk
3 - fos LK no vote. minor kr-scum suspcion
4 - valid response to krisreizer-scum. unvotes sir (why?) I see some dancing here but that may be my tunnel vision, but he doesn't suspect krisreizer
5 - huh implies that he had voted lk earlier which he hadn't, expresses LK suspicion
6 - finally lk vote
7 - lk suspicion
8 - so far his pushing of LK has been alright to me. its only the late vote and not suspecting kr-scum really
9 -,,,
10 - ,,
11 - .
12,13 - oh wow. this is interesting. firstly, voting a lurker never helps, secondly this lurker is not just a lurker, he's confirmed scum. bus or something? maybe. also didn't you accuse lk of exactly the same thing earlier, and ironically kr-scum from doing the same?
14 - runs back with his tail between his legs
15 - ,,
18 - lk vote again
19 - slight afat-scum suspicion
20 - lk suspicion, accuses afat-scum of jumping onto the biggest bandwagon
21 - lk suspicion
23 - slight afat-scum suspicion
25 - fos sf for not sharing info
30 - after a few posts he unvotes lk due to the cop claim, some suspicion of afat here and there
31 - afat-scum suspicion here
34 - day two after the afat lynch. omni did not vote afat though he expressed suspicion here and there

Now I'm going to stop for now. I am really not very sure what to conclude of this pbpa. He suspected scum here and there, but never FoSed or voted them, always suspected lk-scum more.

Damn, I'm bad at these pbpas...

My conclusion for now would be omni-scum + adel-scum = lynch adel asap. I am not going to say 'and then we can lynch sf tomorrow' but we should definitely look at him more closely tomorrow.

[sirdanilot]

Adel, I had to replace out of those two games because I was going on vacation for about 4 weeks with hardly any internet access. Because you know, in Brazil most homes don't have lightning fast broadband yet and there may just be more to do there than playing mafia! You should really stop speculating about replacements now, Adel, there's way more to it than just alignment.

I will surely skim that game, let me see.
...
Got bored after two pages (it's late, short attention span). So basically what's your point adel? Also can you comment on what you think of my omni case? In case you didn't notice, you are omni.

Oh wait, actually thinking results into the conclusion that because you did a proposal like this as town it means that the proposal isn't a scum tell in here. Or at least that's what you're inferring. I really don't buy meta like this at all, unless you do it like every other game or something as town AND as scum. This does say something about sf, however. I think I'd be quite ashamed if he flipped scum but he's actually starting to get up there.

HITOGOROSHI: PLEASE POST SOMETHING. IF NOT:

MOD PLEASE PROD HITOGOROSHI

[sirdanilot]

So SF in that case what do you think about her proposal?

Also I hardly see how that was ambiguous or confusing but whatever.

[sirdanilot]

There adel has a point, actually.

[sirdanilot]

Well, as far as I'm concerned, I just don't know if Adel is town or scum now, but based on play I'd say scum but I'm just not sure. I don't feel comfortable changing my vote to SF over that recent post though, although I do see the point being made. I am thinking we should lynch Adel.

[sirdanilot]

Hito it's really easy to say you don't have scum reads on anyone. I don't buy it though. If you really don't, it's time for you to reread someone or even the entire game.

[sirdanilot]

wait... I think SF said somewhere that it was a town tell. a 'ridiculously huge town tell'.

Let me look this up.

...

dun dun dun got it

SensPizzaLine (1:22:17 AM): I'm not saying his intentions were neccesarily bad. I don't see how he can continue to play in the game, though. Especially since (to me, anyways), the urge to post in MD is a ridiculous town-tell. Yeah, WIFOM, whatever.

And he's still wanting to lynch corvuus.

Alright, this requires a vote, no matter how much I am doubting adel's alignment.

I am not sure if Corvuus is voting SF right now. If not, I will vote to put SF at l-1. If he is, SF should claim and I will probably hammer him later.

MOD: CAN WE GET A VOTECOUNT?

super big huge enormous Arm of Suspicion SensFan

However, I want some discussion with adel. What happened to 'play to win' and 'use every bit of information'? Since when are you arguing against 'dirty play'? I don't see this as something that makes SF less scummy, but I do see it as something that may make you more scummy. However, I think an adel/SF scum pair would be absolutely ridiculous... but certainly not impossible.

[sirdanilot]

This still means that I don't believe that you are having a serious suspicion that Corvuus is scum. "Yeah, WIFOM, whatever." note the last word, whatever. It means that you admit that it may be wifom, but

whatever

, you still find it a ridiculous town tell.

SF you are not in the position to decide as to what kind of game you're going to play right now. You are actually more in a position to be claiming because the only reason I'm not voting you yet is that

I am waiting for the vote count.

If SF now flips town I'm going to be completely flabbergasted and have absolutely no idea who the scum are. Maybe adel tricked us into a SF lynch, but still I think the argument of him finding it a town tell yet be pushing for a corvuus lynch convincing enough. I'd say adel would be very suspicious if SF flipped town, but then I'd lock us into a lynch for tomorrow which is very bad. We should also take the night kill into account anyway, or tells that pop up by then.

[sirdanilot]

I do not see a case or a post where you described this process?

Don't you dare telling me to 'go read' now, or I will hammer you instantly. You will now quote me a post, or several posts, where I can clearly see why you changed your mind on corvuus. They have to be made at the correct time, ie. not far after the 'cheating' incident, still on day 2.

If you cannot, it means that you have been bullshitting town and I will hammer you.

You have

a lot

of explaining to do here.

[sirdanilot]

unvote vote SensFan

L-1. I am now getting more and more sure that we've found scum. Hito is also worth looking at tomorrow, so is Adel and probably OC.

SF, I asked you to quote a post you had made at the correct time. But you didn't, because you hadn't made such a post at the correct time. Instead you constructed a case on corvuus...

[sirdanilot]

(my hands are really cold and I am struggling to type even this short post, so bear with me)

I am getting a bit tired of your continuous 'misunderstandings', sensfan. You are at l-1 now, and one more 'misunderstanding' and you're dead. I am really looking forward to see the big red letters of Sensfan, Mafia, lynched day 3.

Yes Adel I noted that so hito deserves some suspicion tomorrow. So do you.

(Wow, putting on one of those gloves where the fingertops are clipped off really helps.)

[sirdanilot]

If you're town, Adel is suspect number one. I am not saying 'I am so voting adel is SF flips town' but I'm certainly going to take a closer look at her. We should also reread on how adel went from l-1 back to being the accuser, not the accused then. But that is of later concern. Right now, I want to see SF hang.

Hito could you hammer him, that would give the town some very funny information!

[sirdanilot]

Sir, Why did you believe/trust SF up until the point where you unvoted and voted for SF?

A very good question, and I'm afraid I cannot give you a satisfying answer, but I will certainly try to.

I suspected other people more than him, is basically the biggest reason. I suspected Electra first, then OC, WallE, Adel. At adel, my doubts began to come. He always came second place really. I didn't see big inconsistencies or scum tells on him.

So well yeah, I just didn't focus on him enough and I just didn't see any big tells. I disagree with your sentiment that he is a 'horrible player'; he isn't, other than maybe the 'cheating incident' which was very dubious.

[sirdanilot]

Adel - Managed to steer off two wagons, namely sirdanilot (obv. town in my eyes) and herself (which could be scummy).
sirdanilot - Well, I know I'm town
OverCaffeinated - should be replaced. I know that I had a huge case on him earlier, but I'm not so certain now
hitogoroshi - Did not hammer me (town in my eyes, so that's a town tell) nor adel (null until proven guilty). But him buying OCs case was iffy, but then again SF turned out to be town so I don't know.
Corvuus - Well, I always thought he was town but now I'm not so sure (mostly because of what SF said). He hasn't done anything particularly pro-town.

I think Adel and corvuus deserve the most suspicion right now.

I'm beginning to feel pessimistic about the odds of town winning now, we really need to lynch scum for that to be possible. If two scum are left, we are in lylo. If one is left, we can afford a mislynch.

SituationA: 3 town 2 scum
After town lynch: 2 town 2 scum
After nk: 1 town 2 scum
loss
After scum lynch: 3 town 1 scum
After nk: 2 town 1 scum
lylo

SituationB: 4 town 1 scum
After town lynch: 3 town 1 scum
After nk: 2 town 1 scum
lylo
After scum lynch: win

Now, don't go tell me 'OMG SETUP DISCUSSION SCUM!' It's most likely lylo right now, so I think this is warranted. Anyway, I find it more likely 2 scum are alive than 1 scum, because pairs of 3 scum are more common in mini normals, especially with two doctors and a cop that we know in this game. This means we can start looking for pairs, which might aid in finding scum. Right now I'm thinking Adel/Corvuus but of course I'm nowhere near sure.

[sirdanilot]

Considering adel's opinion that hito should give his opinion first (and ideally, an OC replacement, but it will take a while until that replacement will have read the game and be ready to post), I will wait on hito's post until I post my possible scum pairs out of the list adel posted.

[sirdanilot]

Not a peep out of Adel regarding Corvuus.

not a peep out of me regarding the alignment of others so far this day, period.

I don't want anyone else to know where I estimate other players to be on the town-scum scale.

Ah, the classic ol' keeping-info-to-myself play.

The problem is, yesterday you were suspecting me, and I have heard some mentions of you suspecting hito. Not a hint of suspicion at OC or corvuus. So you keeping info to yourself isn't helping

at all

. And at some point, you will have to come out and say it anyway, because I am not going to buy a vote without any explanation on lylo day.

I can live with people holding information to themselves, but not when it's completely useless or even anti town (and if you are town, not sharing your opinions

is

anti town right now).

fos adel

also

MOD PLEASE REPLACE OVERCAFFEINATED

[sirdanilot]

Oh now, right on cue.

I think OC should post before Adel posts since he has more explaining to do. Then again I suspect adel more right now... oh whatever.

[sirdanilot]

Now that's a dilemma. One part of me wants to say 'what gives you the right to lay down your cards last?' while another part does acknowledge that it were OC and hito who went last yesterday...

I think I can live with you waiting for OC, but don't you think you're going to get away this day without laying down your cards at all.

[sirdanilot]

I didn't see what prevented them from being scum together, so i was ok with SF first and Sir second, even though I preferred Sir first and SF second.

Mainly because Sir was scummy for real reasons while SF was scummy based on association and actions in relation to Sir.

So if anything, I'm ok with SF being lynched since I did so based on association with Sir which he *refused* to revoke or make comment on from two days ago.

What. the. hell.

In that case, you should have kept your vote on me. Definitely. I'm really starting to suspect you more and more now corvuus, although I'll be honest I didn't suspect you day 2 and not that much day 3 either.

I find it amusing that Sir's case on SF was the 'cheating part' and when SF 'changed ' his mind (which you, hito, bring up against me which is funny since that is why Sir lynched SF and was lying on and such?) and no comment on previous parts but oh well. I was hoping Sir/SF were scumteam and would implode on each other, but I'm ok with Sir/Hito as I mentioned before.

Give me a case on hito

right now

or I am seriously going to plan to vote you.

Oh you also mentioned about how I said you need to read closer and such. My statement stands. You do need to read closer Hito and bring up a real case.

SF's case isn't real at all.

Corvuus

SFs case is strengthened because we know SF was town. Therefore you can't just dismiss it. I think that you should now reply to that case and defend yourself against it as if SF were still alive.

I'm not very comfortable letting adel slip by unnoticed though. I do not feel very comfortable to let her away this time again. Day 2 there were people who found omni scummy, and day 3 I was this close to letting her get lynched.

[sirdanilot]

I'm absolutely stumped. corvuus' huge post (which I read entirely, despite having difficulty to focus on it) made me a tad less suspicious, especially towards the end.

I'm sorry but I don't think I'm able to coherently reply to anything right now. Too much information makes my brain overload. I would really appreciate it if anyone who wants me to reply to anything would post a short post to guide me to what I should reply to.

[sirdanilot]

I just ask that nobody forgets about omni.

-in between joke/serious vote (I did this as first time scum)
-redirected attention early on
-bandwagoning kris with nothing new, just my reasoning. I also pointed out why this probably wasn't a pressure vote.
-backpedaling: "I should have gone after some one else.
-accusing LK of doing the same thing he (Omni) did with inactivity vote. (not necessarily bad to vote for inactivity anyway).Also did this with the hopping thing.
-distancing (afat)
-giving multiple targets in case LK wagon fails. (will be interesting to see where Omni goes from here) Afat's name was at the bottom of his list. Keep that in mind later in the game.
-buddying up to cop (name, not role)

While I still think afat is scum, I'm ok with voting omni right now.

So I guess we should look more at adel. As I said I really would prefer to lynch her, even over corvuus. Look at this, my omni pbpa and my adel suspicions day 3.

[sirdanilot]

In fact, I think Adel should refute this case first.

Adel, you have been telling people to start posting again, but why did you not post anything while you were at it? Anyway, now you have something you should comment on. I'd also like to see you take the effort of looking up my omni pbpa and responding to it. You have burden of proof right now.

[sirdanilot]

You have a point here. In that case, I think I'm going to have to continue some day 3 discussion with you.

OC, Hito, Corvuus: Could you guys please post your opinions on omni using my pbpa and the comments by KMD posted above (and anything else you want to use). If we can agree omni was probably scummy enough to be lynched, we're more than halfway to catching adel-scum. If not, we're back to were we started... unless we get a huge town read of course in which case we can narrow down to oc, hito, corvuus and me and every towny player will have 2/3 chance of voting scum. Which is the second best we can achieve. But quite honestly I think Adel is scummy enough to dismiss this possibility.

Anyway, instead of reading an adel one player thread I decided to reread day 3 so I'll quote juicy bits as I go along.

If possible, I would like to know everyone's top 2 scum list. As I mentioned, I think there is definitely 2 left and I want to know more than players just voting one person and not saying anything. It isn't acceptable at this point anymore to lynch like we lynched Wall-E.

omni is scum #1. sirdanilot is scum #2. Corvuus is town. The other three fall somewhere in the middle, I'm sort of hazy on them.

And night 3 he was NKed. Maybe this points us towards omni-scum? You could say that it could point to me-scum as well but obviously I know my own alignment.

I think that Sirdanilot is scum and I think that you (Corvuus) is pro-town.

And guess what, he's still alive. IMO points towards me-town but who am I to say that. Or corvuus-scum.

I don't have a read on Omni. He doesn't post a lot and when he does, doesn't seem to take sides.

hint distancing hint

So in order from most scummy to least scummy
Sirdanilot
Hitogoroshi
Sensfan
Omni
Iamausername
Corvuus

Oh, he changed now. IMO this may point to me and hito town, but I'm not sure if my brain works well enough to conclude that yet. Omni conveniently in the middle.
SensFan's #1 and #2 are corvuus and OC resp. Corvuus' are me and SF

I think it's pretty likely that this day will end in a sirdanilot lynch, and I am OK with that.

This would hypothetically point towards me-scum. I know that I am town and that username was also town so this is mostly pointless but I just felt like posting it just because. Feel free to use against me, scum.

I think this is definetly time to role claim.

I am a Townsperson.

I was going to post something about my PM, but it would probably break the game. But it was almost exactly like the one posted in the game setup.

what OC why did you claim here?

edit by way of post:

I am a townsperson.

For SF/sir, read iamusername's post. you could have commented on it beforehand and such.

Corv

what

My top two are SF and Sir.

why did you change your order here corvuus (post 1004)

So my goal was to read adel but I didn't get there and now I have to go. Remind me to continue this later. I think early day 3 (even before adel replaced in) was one of the more informative phases of the game.I am also beginning to see the case on OC again (advocating lurker lynch over active scummy because 'scum won't allow town to get scum lynched' what the hell?).

[sirdanilot]

Post please.

[sirdanilot]

posting to avoid prod.

also note that I'll be v/la from 31th jan to 8th february so if you desperately need me you'll have to wait.

[sirdanilot]

mod: mass prod?

[sirdanilot]

(posting in all my games)

back will post soon

[sirdanilot]

Uh I was more like thinking adel/corvuus.

As for hito's little plan, I think I've ruined enough little plans this game so go ahead and wait for OC to post I guess.

I'd also like to see people actually considering my little analysis of early day 3 since it's really not fun to see such effort getting wasted. Or maybe hito's little plan utilizes it, I don't know.

(sorry for not contributing a lot but the thread moved only one page this week and my head isn't really oriented towards the game right now)

[sirdanilot]

what if I am willing to vote for corvuus?

I have absolutely no idea.

[sirdanilot]

Adel is the most scummy in my book, corvuus is the runner up, it's mostly that you two don't seem to suspect each other at all.

Early day 3 gives some OC/Adel scumpair tells though.

Fact remains I think we should lynch Adel.

[sirdanilot]

Adel, why are you willing to vote Corvuus while you think he is town.

Also corvuus I have never even noticed you not saying anything about OC, that is a very good point.

[sirdanilot]

Uh what.

Hypothetical adel-town, you are achieving NOTHING by confusing players like that because I have absolutely no idea what you mean with ridiculous posts like that. The only conclusion of what you are trying to do that I can get is that you're scum and are somehow confusing the town or something.

You can try this stuff in a game with experienced players only (invitationals or something), but while I am certainly not a complete noob I still have absolutely no idea how to handle confusing posts by experienced players like that.

If you want to 'play to win' so bad you should change your play a bit in a game with a higher concentration of less experienced players.

Hypothetical adel-scum, just die right now ok.

[sirdanilot]

what if I am willing to vote for corvuus?

I have absolutely no idea.

I expect that you would've answered differently if you were scum.

Sigh. Could you please stop those little games of yours. What would me-scum have said? 'Oh then I would be willing to lynch corvuus too.'? Or 'vote adel'?

[sirdanilot]

Sigh whatever then. If you want to play like that then do it, but don't be surprised if you get newbies voting you out of sheer frustration, confused players and people breaking your little gambits accidentally etc.

Anyway, even though the decision is a very hard one, we should now slowly move towards making one. What does everyone think.

[sirdanilot]

I am willing to lynch Adel, and

maybe

compromise OC or Corvuus.

There, that's my cards on the table.

Although it is indeed possible to lynch without OC, would it not be better for the town to have him around anyway. If it gives us even the slightest advantage I would rather wait for OC to show up or be replaced. Unfortunately we have to wait at least a week since our mod is having RL issues.

Remember that if we do hit scum, we have to hit scum tomorrow too. Any information is welcome.

corvuus - Don't you think Adel lead us to a SF lynch day 3? And Omni happily voted for Wall-E day 3 too. Doesn't this make him scum?

[sirdanilot]

No.

[sirdanilot]

No.

[sirdanilot]

corvuus, I do not find Hito scummy enough for this compared to Adel, OC and you. That doesn't mean I am sure he is town, but I do have to make priorities. At least one of adel, OC and you is scum, and probably 2 of them.

Hito I do not appreciate how you don't want to

talk

while we're down a player and a mod. I can understand why you don't want to

lynch

, but there is no thinkable situation in which talking would not be pro-town.

so if we are both town, like I suspect, then the only way you will vote with me is if I vote for Corv? I have a problem with that, because I think it is more probable that he is town than you being town.

And I also think this, although perhaps by a slighter margin.

Hito could you lay your cards on the table on who you want to lynch with whom, same for corvuus.

Unless you guys want to wait for OC, but I am fearing that this would force you to wait a week for him to be replaced, and then maybe another week for the replacement to have been found and caught up. Do you want to sacrifice another 2 weeks to this tedious game for just a minor advantage?

[sirdanilot]

OC, I was discussing not talking before OC was replacement, rather than voting. We should definitely not vote before we get a replacement, but can we already lay our cards on the table? YES, WE CAN!

Adel, the problem is that I'm not so sure at all that Hito is town. What I do know is that at least one of my suspects is scum (those being OC, Adel and Corvuus). I have at least 1/3rd chance of hitting scum, and most likely a 2/3rd chance. Let's say a 1/2nd chance to get something in between.
If I decide to open myself up to compromise on hito as well, I have a 1/2th chance of hitting scum (since for me, two out of the four are certainly scum). That's in fact the exact same, but the former way narrows down the scumhunting process to three instead of four, making it just a tad more efficient.

I would encourage everyone to pick one person (no more, no less) whom they are willing to assume they are town for this day. Explanation above.

I'd especially like some input from adel about these statistics since quite frankly I do not even have a basic knowledge of the subject (my maths course doesn't even include statistics and probability) other than what I can cook up myself.

[sirdanilot]

So adel basically you agree with choosing one player to trust as town.

Hitogoroshi, even if you don't want to make compromises yet, could you name one player you trust as town? See my post above on why this is better town play.

[sirdanilot]

sirdanilot trusts hitogoroshi
hitogoroshi trusts sirdanilot
corvuus trusts adel
adel trusts corvuus

We have two pairs here. This means that we can't even logically lynch anyone without OCs help. Not that we were planning on that anyway.

So well we have 2 weeks to go to wait for OC to be replaced.

[sirdanilot]

I'm not going to search through the thread now, but the adel case basically comes down to this.

his predecessor was way scummy.
come day three, he slowly but surely led us to a SF lynch, using logic that wasn't even really that logical, trying to barter people to vote SF. in the end he got what he wanted. I am not going to say that the SF lynch was really really bad; I did see enough reason to lynch him, and I'd probably do it again, but it's the way he steered us towards it really.

corvuus case:
corvuus is mainly buddying up to adel-scum. and the opportunistic sf hammer.

I am slowly beginning to think OC is starting to get more scummy than corvuus though so there's still room for development. I just want him to be replaced first. If you want my case on OC then search my one player thread seriously.

[sirdanilot]

Then who am I supposed to trust as town? I'm certainly not trusting you.

MAYBE

, just very MAYBE I could someday trust Corvuus as town over hito, but seriously that's not the case at all yet. I also won't trust OC as town over hito.

[sirdanilot]

First I thought 'huh didn't my post appear' before I saw you just repeated what you had said.

I am indeed a bit skeptical, but not enough to trust anyone else over hito. And I thought we agree that we have to trust at least someone?

And yes I am willing to vote you with hito and OC right now. There's 50% chance you're scum right? Give me anyone else that has a higher chance of being scum.

[sirdanilot]

He was also setting up the easy omni lynch

?

[sirdanilot]

ebwop: also I think that post was pretty good adel thank you

[sirdanilot]

What do you think of the fact kmd-towndoc has urged us to kill omni?

[sirdanilot]

ebwop: lynch

[sirdanilot]

Can we have a case against oc here?

Why am I scum over corvuus?

[sirdanilot]

ok could you PLEASE be quick at replacing oc now sf thank you!

[sirdanilot]

So now we wait...

[sirdanilot]

hey adel come on what's wrong with a nati replacement

other than that it will be hard for him to let OC look townish...

[sirdanilot]

sigh

[sirdanilot]

don't be scared away by adel she's just playing with you

[sirdanilot]

Oh my goodness. Adel are you seriously doing here what I think you are.

I know that you're proponent of 'playing to win' but this just goes a bit too far okay. Firstly you are assuming that SF would do such a thing. Secondly you are assuming nat is a bad player. Thirdly you are assuming that SF recognizes nat as a bad player.
It's this kind of absurd speculation that makes you look so iffy okay.

hint: stop

let's start playing with natirasha. nat please post your views of the various players in the game, show us that you read it. if you didn't read it, start reading it and then show what you got. surprise me!

[sirdanilot]

hi

thanks for the quick run-through though... but the only reason i actually replaced in was because it's in LYLO.... i wouldn't have time to read through a 55 pg game if it still had a day or two to go.

what

[sirdanilot]

waiting for xofelf

[sirdanilot]

My scumpair is either Adel/xofelf or Adel/Corvuus. I am doubting which of the two is more likely.

------

Xofelf, I would like to ask you a very important question. You see, there are 5 players left, two of which are scum. Assuming you are town, this means that you have 4 players to choose from to lynch. 2 of these are scum, so you always have 1/2 chance to hit scum. However, this would force you to read 4 players thoroughly, and even more possible connections. In a game with more than 50 pages, this is very unpractical.
That's why I have asked everyone to pick one person whom they will trust as town for today, and will not lynch under any circumstances today. This means that you have 3 people to investigate. There is a chance that 2/3 of them are scum, and there is a chance that 1/3 of them are scum. If you take the average value of these, you get 2/3+1/3=3/3, divided by two you get 1/2 chance that the person you vote is scum. This is exactly the same as the chance you'd get when you would have to investigate 4 people, but it costs way less time and is way more practical.

Now, we have the interesting situation that the following players trust the following as town, and will not vote them under any circumstances today:
sirdanilot - hitogoroshi possible scumpairs: adel/corvuus, xofelf/corvuus/, adel/xofelf
hitogoroshi - sirdanilot possible scumpairs: adel/corvuus, xofelf/corvuus/, adel/xofelf
adel - corvuus possible scumpairs: sirdanilot/hitogoroshi, sirdanilot/xofelf/, hitogoroshi/xofelf
corvuus - adel possible scumpairs: sirdanilot/hitogoroshi, sirdanilot/xofelf/, hitogoroshi/xofelf

Meaning that we have to know the person you will trust for today, in order to make a decision. Who will you trust for today, and not lynch them? Please answer this as soon as possible so we can start wrapping this up.

[sirdanilot]

edit: oh, and about my thoughts on the corvuus/xofelf scumpair, it's quite possible too... but I am still leaning adel-scum

[sirdanilot]

Although I too would have preferred to see a case, this will do for now. Thank you xofelf.

sirdanilot - hitogoroshi possible scumpairs: adel/corvuus, xofelf/corvuus/, adel/xofelf
hitogoroshi - sirdanilot possible scumpairs: adel/corvuus, xofelf/corvuus/, adel/xofelf
adel - corvuus possible scumpairs: sirdanilot/hitogoroshi, sirdanilot/xofelf/, hitogoroshi/xofelf
corvuus - adel possible scumpairs: sirdanilot/hitogoroshi, sirdanilot/xofelf/, hitogoroshi/xofelf
xofelf - corvuus possible scumpairs: sirdanilot/hitogoroshi, sirdanilot/adel, hitogoroshi/adel


Meaning we could compromise on anyone, since all three of us have 3 people who technically suspect us.

We're still stuck. Someone help?

[sirdanilot]

or is it just listing the fact that each person wouldn't lynch himself or his 'most townie' pick and then the permutations are just left over?

this

meaning everyone has 3 possible scumpairs to look at

[sirdanilot]

hmm in that case maybe a case speculating a certain scumpair you are suspecting?

[sirdanilot]

Oh wow. Votes.

Adel: why did you vote me? I thought you didn't really think I was scum? Why did you unvote me shortly after? Do you even realize how risky such a gambit could have been if you were town?

Then again, the unvote was one hour after your vote, so odds are that you have been paying attention not to get a sirdanilot lynch so that kind of reduces my suspicion a bit.

I'm completely clueless regarding this game. I am now starting to see hito-scum as well...

[sirdanilot]

Good game scum. Adel, you did nothing to convince me you were town, but you did everything to confuse me enough so I did not dare to vote you. I should have stepped up and followed through by voting for you. I take full responsibility for this.

It was also unfortunate that I wasn't online when hito was being lynched. I

might

have been convinced to vote Adel at that point. But I won't blame our loss solely on that. Also the last scum would have hammered anyway.

All in all, it's very unfortunate that I lost, but this has given me some confidence that my gut is usually the safest option to go. I suspected Adel. As for OC/xofelf, well it could have gone either way to me really.

I still don't feel bad about the SF lynch, although it was obviously Adel-driven, we had enough reasons to lynch him. The wall-e lynch was bad, but still understandable.

Lessons learned from this game:
1. Have balls. Be willing to go with your gut if you suspect someone.
2. Listen to ex-townies.

Anything else?

Also guys, let's keep this positive and let's stop talking about the stupid 'cheating' issues. They are completely irrelevant.