Mini Normal 2159 | Cinder Block Mafia | Game Over!

[Raya36]

Hey VOTE: Not Mafia

[Raya36]

I know a few players in the playerlist (SJReaver, Frogsterking, & Walter)

I don’t know the others, but this is for everyone...

1. What is your mafia experience?
2. What is your play style strength(s)? Weakness(es)? Do you know?
3. In your opinion, what is the most important thing to look for while scumhunting? While townreading?

I've played a decent amount for about 3 years on and off. I'm better at finding town than I am scum so I tend to town hunt instead. I get quite nervous as scum. I tend to tunnel people I think are scum. Motivation is the most important thing to look for in general in my opinion

[Raya36]

More from me tomorrow

[Raya36]

The interaction between Reaver and Walter at 31 felt weird or awkward maybe. Almost felt like maybe Walter was going for a push but then backed off when Reaver responded. I got the same feeling from 67.

callforjudgement's huge post 50 was a lot. I don't townread it but don't necessarily scum read it either. I just think it's something scum could do to try to take the credit of getting us out of rvs which is what seemed to be happening (55). After reading more it feels like he's either town tryharding or scum trying way too hard to be 'obvtown'. Time will tell.

I kinda like Banana for town. Just as an early gut read.


VOTE: callforjudgement

[Raya36]

The little jabs and looseness/carelessness of his play really.

[Raya36]

I disagree that those are towny. The 'so I'll drop it' kinda ruined 142 for me and I'm just not seeing any reason to townread 147.

[Raya36]

Walter, do you have any scum reads?

[Raya36]

oh,
Because I thought the memes and bruhs were not as helpful overall.
But asking qs is more helpful than nothing.
pedit
slight on sou
Very slight on sj but could just be her posting style.
Just a lot of nulls right now due to people like nm or people who have not been on.

You're right that asking questions is more helpful than nothing but what was done could so easily have been done as scum too. 142 and 147 are NAI.

Can you explain the slight scumreads?

[Raya36]

Raya, what do you make of Rce?

Nothing yet. I need time to read RCE. I don't think I could get a reliable read D1

[Raya36]

That post by frog seems really weird considering the fact that it was his second post all game. Something to keep an eye on.
N_m do you have any thoughts on the playerbase other than you are proud of the fact you caught scum D1.

I don't get why it is odd?

The interaction between Reaver and Walter at 31 felt weird or awkward maybe. Almost felt like maybe Walter was going for a push but then backed off when Reaver responded. I got the same feeling from 67.

callforjudgement's huge post 50 was a lot. I don't townread it but don't necessarily scum read it either. I just think it's something scum could do to try to take the credit of getting us out of rvs which is what seemed to be happening (55). After reading more it feels like he's either town tryharding or scum trying way too hard to be 'obvtown'. Time will tell.

I kinda like Banana for town. Just as an early gut read.


VOTE: callforjudgement

I don't get the vote. froma read where you say it is either A or B, you pretty hard veer into B
and that is a really obvious sucking up to Banana

hmm
I see where you come from on that.
I think he is a town lean for me because of his more recent posts like 142 and 147.

but then this from Walter, sucking up to Raya sucking up to Banana....well lets just say I have noticed this

Notice how I use my vote to put more pressure on callforjudgement to see if anything comes from it and I question and interact with Walter. I can't vote both so I picked the one to interact with that I think I'd learn more from that way and voted the one that would make a wagon

How is stating a town lean sucking up to someone?

[Raya36]

a

hmm
I see where you come from on that.
I think he is a town lean for me because of his more recent posts like 142 and 147.

but then this from Walter, sucking up to Raya sucking up to Banana....well lets just say I have noticed this

I will agree with this though. If Walter is scum I could see him doing this to try to get rid of my scumlean on him.

[Raya36]

I never said I don't like you saying that. I just don't get how me simply stating a townlean means I must be trying to pocket them?

The difference between me doing that to Banana and Walter to me is that I scumlean Walter so it makes sense for him to try to pocket me to turn that around.

[Raya36]

The interaction between Reaver and Walter at 31 felt weird or awkward maybe. Almost felt like maybe Walter was going for a push but then backed off when Reaver responded. I got the same feeling from 67.

callforjudgement's huge post 50 was a lot. I don't townread it but don't necessarily scum read it either. I just think it's something scum could do to try to take the credit of getting us out of rvs which is what seemed to be happening (55). After reading more it feels like he's either town tryharding or scum trying way too hard to be 'obvtown'. Time will tell.

I kinda like Banana for town. Just as an early gut read.


VOTE: callforjudgement

I do get the feeling that Woolter is trying not to rock the boat much. Like he's asking questions and probing but most of them are softballs.

And then backing off real quick when his pushes are retaliated on. I'd have to look into his meta and see if this is how he normally plays. Someone just mentioned he tends to get miselimed

[Raya36]

oh,
Because I thought the memes and bruhs were not as helpful overall.
But asking qs is more helpful than nothing.
pedit
slight on sou
Very slight on sj but could just be her posting style.
Just a lot of nulls right now due to people like nm or people who have not been on.

You're right that asking questions is more helpful than nothing but what was done could so easily have been done as scum too. 142 and 147 are NAI.

Can you explain the slight scumreads?

For Sj it it the bait posts and posts like 91 that don;t solve but say look scummy.
is that an actual claim sj in 216?
Alright for sou, it is the progression from 79 where he will go back and reread and then 117 where he agrees with a post but does not offer any solving or anything at all.

I have to say that I read frog as scum now.
I find 150 to be really weird case to make this late, now maybe that was when he online next. but it seems kinda wifomy.
But then his most recent posts put nomafia as town antitown???
I read that slot as null.
But the case on nosferatu seems forced and an overread into a slot that has not been on.
VOTE: Frogster

Tell me what's bad about 91. And what bait posts?

[Raya36]

What is bad from my perspective of 91 is the second part on the part about tomorrownow she may have picked up a scum italiano but it does not seem helpful. K, enthuisiastic, yes.
The come get me scum posts that are 112 113 and 114, and 115 where she says she is scum.

Do you think claiming scum more likely comes from scum though? Especially from someone new?

[Raya36]

5.
No.
Here I developed some even better questions!
1. Is it okay to put rotting produce into an uncooked stead as a filler?
What is the cinderblock you would like most as a pet?
Are pineapples good on pizzas?

VOTE: Walther
Now you’re just wasting time and space with this

Why would you call this out but not call me out for doing the exact same thing?

I disagree with any notion of "wasting time" when we have 2 week long days lol

His explicitly comes off as wasting time
You just seem like a less serious person in general

But to elaborate, the prolonging of the RQS came off as scum who didn’t have a good transition into the full game yet. One was alright and the first was some good questions, the second had less compelling questions but felt orderly enough to not bother me. The third was super random and out of place imo.

The third from Walter felt like trying to fit in

[Raya36]

I think Frog is probably town

also moving my vote somewhere more useful
VOTE: Walter

[Raya36]

There's no wagon on callforjudgement anymore while there is on Walter. Plus I can barely read judgements posts so I need to go back through later

[Raya36]

There's no wagon on callforjudgement anymore while there is on Walter. Plus I can barely read judgements posts so I need to go back through later

So you voted for Walter because other people were voting for him?

No, I clearly stated in a post who the two people are I think could be scum (Walter and Judgement) and I explained why for each. I switched from Judgement to Walter because my vote was doing nothing and would be more powerful on a wagon

[Raya36]

im so over this bullshit read my town pm and weep

VOTE: nosferatu

if ur on this wagon you suck at this game

it is anti-town wincon to bleed town d1 and you know it cfg, and that bullshit abt consequences of being on whats basically an rvs wagon is ridiculous

This is scummy

[Raya36]

if i get wagoned for dumb shit like this its obvious im not gonna have the agency i want later on so id rather get it over with now and just go next

Do you usually get this frustrated when wagoned early on? It's reading as an act to me

[Raya36]

Is cfj seriously being wagoned for being “too towny”?

It might be a playstyle thing for him but he seems to choose his words too carefully and to be trying too hard to appear obvtown. There's a difference between being too towny and appearing to be trying to be too towny. There's a paranoid part of me that thought when he was discussing how scum lurking by making meaningless posts is optimal, he was trying to say that's what he would do as scum, then do the opposite to appear town.

[Raya36]

Dayvig: Gamma

Idk if this is real but why Gamma?

[Raya36]

selfvotes are always scummy

[Raya36]

selfvotes are always scummy

nice dodge

How was that a dodge? You self-voted, I find self-votes to be scummy. You're frustrating read as fake

[Raya36]

selfvotes are always scummy

They arent pro town

That's true. Ok self votes are always anti-town. And I read this particular time as scummy

[Raya36]

Just as personal preference, or are you better as a player in late game?

just a preference

selfvotes are always scummy

I don’t know if it’s only a scum based action, but definitely anti-town. On that note

@Nosferatu: what purpose does it serve besides ATE? Which is not helping town, but helping yourself? With the numbers the way it is a townie elimination on Day 1 will not break or lose the game for town. I know play styles/personality have a lot to do with how players react to pressure and wagons being formed on them, etc., but your action seemed fake and forced (scum) or at the very least bad unhelpful play (townie)

i literally wanted to just get eliminated to spite the town lol ive done it as scum for AtE but its never been called out as such its not really all that deep

selfvotes are always scummy

nice dodge

How was that a dodge? You self-voted, I find self-votes to be scummy. You're frustrating read as fake

i literally didn't ask your opinion on self-votes
the fact that you feel the need to back up ur opinion after i call ur post scummy is v interesting

I can see it the same way as you. Calling my post a dodge felt like deflection.

[Raya36]

A deflection from me calling your self vote scummy. I call your self vote scummy and you say me calling it that is scummy. Deflection.

[Raya36]

selfvotes are always scummy

They arent pro town

That's true. Ok self votes are always anti-town. And I read this particular time as scummy

The day is so early though. Why is this scummy in this instance? What's the play? There's till so much time left for day 1, his lunch is in no way a forgone conclusion

No but he's building up a wagon and suspicion so he could easily have faked the frustration (with the self vote to emphasize) to appear more town

[Raya36]

you call my post scummy --> i call your post scummy --> you make an absolutist statement that cannot be engaged with

who broke off the discussion? i think its u here

Its deflection because after calling your post scummy you immediately call mine scummy too. And it wasnt an absolutist statement considering people are arguing with me

[Raya36]

selfvotes are always scummy

They arent pro town

That's true. Ok self votes are always anti-town. And I read this particular time as scummy

The day is so early though. Why is this scummy in this instance? What's the play? There's till so much time left for day 1, his lunch is in no way a forgone conclusion

No but he's building up a wagon and suspicion so he could easily have faked the frustration (with the self vote to emphasize) to appear more town

The frustration feels genuine though - this whole thing started over basically nothing, pushed by Frog and then multiple people have piled on

Maybe I should reread but it came off as fake on my first read

[Raya36]

A deflection from me calling your self vote scummy. I call your self vote scummy and you say me calling it that is scummy. Deflection.

I think I know what you're trying to say, don't particularly agree, but it's not exactly a bad logic

Well good to know that I'm not going crazy

[Raya36]

okay does no one know how the role rules work rn

I thought dayvig was a thing in normals :/

[Raya36]

@mod v/la until tomorrow night

[Raya36]

I assumed it was real because I checked the wiki

Normal Guidelines

Vigilantes are considered Normal on mafiascum.net if their kill flavour is indistinguishable from other factions'. As of 9 November 2015, they must also be town aligned.

And i read that and went "oh..." but every game I play there seems to be a new role I've never played with before.
I wish people wouldn't lie fake claims just confuwe me. I'm a simple man and just want things kept all easy

Vigilante and Day Vigilante are normally considered different roles (you can also see a dayvig as Vigilante plus the Day modifier, but Day is abNormal).

Anyway, what's bothering me about this is: if you assumed that a dayvig is legal in Normals on the basis that it's a type of Vigilante, and that the dayvig shot were real, but were aware that Vigilantes were always town, surely you should have assumed that RCEnigma was confirmed town as a result?

@RCenigma - you have call for judgement as scum, but you have just killed Gamma??

There doesn't seem to be much reason to ask about the motivation of a "confirmed townie", unless you want their help sorting a slot (and in the hypothetical world where Gamma is "about to flip", there is absolutely no reason to try to scumhunt the slot, you just wait for the mod to get online). So in retrospect, this post looks more like you were trying to figure out how a townie would react to the dayvig, than actually reacting to the dayvig.

I think you underestimate how puzzled I can be by other players. I had had a conversation with them about how they knew someone had voted for scum, worked out they meant one exact vote on one exact player, and then they just went and vigged someone else. I wanted to know why. They explained and from then I was waiting for the mod to come along and flip the kill and then I would either shout at them for a terrible shot or congratulate them on their amazing aim (as I firmly believe if they had shot scum it was blind luck).
That is my honest explanation of what was going through my head at the time _ someone in very QuickTime trying to work out what exactly what going on, checking the wiki and all. I am not sure what you mean by scumhunting the slot (the person shot?) or trying to concoct a reaction to a day vig.

Have I explained myself well enough.

Your next post though confuses me, where you attack Walter for only interacting with me. You think you have found two scum in me and Walter?

I kinda think this is town. Sounded very genuine

[Raya36]

27 (reaver) pings me. let me give an excuse for not having any good reads before starting. also isnt pocketing something that only scum would have to do?
50 (judgement) strikes me as wayyy too tryhard for that stage in the game. overanalyzing that much doesnt feel natural. judgements later posts on that page also reek of teaching and trying to score easy townpoints.
74 raya is probably town
104 (italiano) is odd. pretty defensive and finger-pointy and generally sounds like scum trying to sound like theyre posting from a town mindset.
113 (reaver) uh excuse me? where is any of this coming from? booo. this long wall of posts has some good stuff but its too long and its making me suspicious.
150 (frogster) is a good one
152 (judgement) is a good response but NAI and proves that judgement is pretty self-aware in wording, so guess we will have to evaluate content rather than phrasing.
165 (raya) is interesting. raya said she townhunts, but is here pretty aggressive in scumhunting. hmm
180 (frog) is bad. frog seems to really be digging here.

i caught up to the top of page 9. more to come later.

Maybe I should specify that I'm more successful in townhunting (of course) but I still do both. Scumhunting generates more discussion than townhunting does so it's still necessary

[Raya36]

Also initial townlean on taylor

[Raya36]

I think Frog is probably town

also moving my vote somewhere more useful
VOTE: Walter

There's no wagon on callforjudgement anymore while there is on Walter. Plus I can barely read judgements posts so I need to go back through later

Based on this reasoning, why didn't you move your vote back onto me?

Because my vote on you did nothing but sit there. You're the kind of player that doesn't need pressure to post more and also simply based on posting style I already know I'm going to have a lot of trouble reading and interacting with you. So it makes much more sense for my vote to be on Walter, not you.

[Raya36]

Damn. I really wanted my cfj read to be right, but Taylor is playing pretty on par with how i thought scum would rep in.

Can you explain this? I might be missing something because she seemed pretty town to me

[Raya36]

I feel a slight tr about the gerain slot after cfj's post and explanation. although such a defense of Gerain seemed very out of the blue.
I find this whole fake guilty thing to be highly suspicious and pr fishing.

I am really tired rn going to sleep.

How was it pr fishing

[Raya36]

I feel a slight tr about the gerain slot after cfj's post and explanation. although such a defense of Gerain seemed very out of the blue.
I find this whole fake guilty thing to be highly suspicious and pr fishing.

I am really tired rn going to sleep.

How was it pr fishing

yeah this. if anything you not being able to get the joke and trying to point out "suspicious" things like this is scummy.

Exactly my thoughts

[Raya36]

Because I don't see the purpose of a fake guilty, it just seems really odd to me.
I get it was a joke, but I am not sure of its usefulness.
pedit It does seem very nm, but the fact that it was prompted by nos though? hmm
Something to keep in mind.

But how was it power role fishing?

[Raya36]

Fake claiming cop.
I don’t see a purpose unless scum was trying to bait a reaction.
Try to see how town would react. Maybe draw a pr out. That was my thought. Although it Does come from two of the more anto town slots.

You can't see the side where it was just town joking/messing around? Or a town reaction test? Scum as far as I know actually aren't that likely to be so obvious when pr fishing. They don't want to openwolf unless that's the overall strategy they're going for. I'd expect them to he more subtle when fishing or not fish at all

[Raya36]

Something that's bothering me generally about this game: why is nobody making a serious effort to change the gamestate? In particular, why aren't the

scum

making a serious effort to change the gamestate? In the situation we have at the moment, there are lots of impatient townies looking for something to do, and if someone made a serious and not-ridiculous case on a scumread of theirs, they would likely get a lot of votes following. That seems like a risky situation for scum if the scumread in question is correct, so I would have expected them to start a wagon of their own, or at least push mine harder. I can only see two real possibilities here; either a) scum are happy with the current gamestate (in which case we should be trying to change it!), or b) scum are not in the thread / out of their depth / have no idea what to do and are simply being inactive as a consequence (in which case we may be able to figure out who they are, directly or via PoE).

Meanwhile, I see attempts to shake things up (such as the whole daycop thing we had recently) that don't ultimately have a huge impact as being unlikely to be from scum; it mostly just helps to get information with which to read players more accurately without making long-term changes to the gamestate, and that seems to only help town.

There are still a lot of players who are alone on their wagons. If anyone's interested in persuading me (and the rest of us) to join them, I'd be interested to hear what you have to say! If not, I guess I'll try doing a full reread of everyone in order to come up with an updated reads list, because something has to happen to get this game moving again (I was hoping that the replacements would help in that respect, but that's going too slowly).

So basically what you're trying to say is scum are happy with the current game state. And the current game state includes you being the top wagon. So you must be town because scum are happy with you being the top wagon and doing nothing about it... all I can read this as is a defense of yourself hidden in lots of words.

[Raya36]

(PEDIT: re #638)

The reasoning should be correct regardless of my alignment. If you think there's a mistake, please point it out so that I can re-evaluate my reasoning.

I agree that it points towards me as town, but that's hardly a reason not to mention it in thread! Of course, it's harder to be objective about something when it points to you as town, so it's possible I have some confirmation bias here (i.e. "this correctly predicts me as town, so it's more likely to be correct"), in which case it's especially important that you point out any flaws in my reasoning! But "this reasoning benefits CFJ and CFJ is making it" is not a reason to ignore it or consider it invalid.

I think the flaw is the wifom you've attached to it and looking at it from our point of view.

First, I have seen scum wagons sit around in a similar gamestate before. It's not nearly as common as town wagons but this doesn't entirely mean you're town.

Looking in from my point of view I see a player indirectly explaining why they must be town based on the gamestate. One way I can see it is this player is scum and for whatever reason (unhelpful scum mates, avoiding defending of scum mates, etc) has decided to defend himself but in a way that on face value doesn't appear to be a self defense. If someone else pointed it out it would appear more towny but the fact that it was you indirectly defending yourself adds wifom.

Of course I could also see it as town simply making an observation which would allow someone else come to the conclusion that it could point to them being town.

[Raya36]

(PEDIT: re #638)

The reasoning should be correct regardless of my alignment. If you think there's a mistake, please point it out so that I can re-evaluate my reasoning.

I agree that it points towards me as town, but that's hardly a reason not to mention it in thread! Of course, it's harder to be objective about something when it points to you as town, so it's possible I have some confirmation bias here (i.e. "this correctly predicts me as town, so it's more likely to be correct"), in which case it's especially important that you point out any flaws in my reasoning! But "this reasoning benefits CFJ and CFJ is making it" is not a reason to ignore it or consider it invalid.

I think the flaw is the wifom you've attached to it and looking at it from our point of view.

First, I have seen scum wagons sit around in a similar gamestate before. It's not nearly as common as town wagons but this doesn't entirely mean you're town.

Looking in from my point of view I see a player indirectly explaining why they must be town based on the gamestate. One way I can see it is this player is scum and for whatever reason (unhelpful scum mates, avoiding defending of scum mates, etc) has decided to defend himself but in a way that on face value doesn't appear to be a self defense. If someone else pointed it out it would appear more towny but the fact that it was you indirectly defending yourself adds wifom.

Of course I could also see it as town simply making an observation which would allow someone else come to the conclusion that it could point to them being town.

I see all of this as pointless since cfj isn't a wagon you entertained at it's height. Pushing this angle now is counterintuitive.

cfj is one of my scumreads... and this was just an observation I made that supports that

[Raya36]

UNVOTE:
reading

Weird opening imo. This is pure gut but more than a bit scummy to me

Seemed like a pretty standard opening to me

[Raya36]

cfj is one of my scumreads... and this was just an observation I made that supports that

I get that. But one of your two scumreads has been close to elim for a few days now and you kinda just....opted to ignore the wagon as a whole until now. Which is cool, looks weird, but it's cool.

I explained it a bit before. It definitely is a bit of a weird case but I'm finding cfj very difficult to read properly and interact with which is kind of why I'm prioritizing Walter, and hoping to be able to get a better ready on cfj when there's more information D2.

[Raya36]

i still feel like cfj will be easy to evaluate after some flips, but is a bit messy today. i am suspicious, but dont want to lynch there today. that said, VOTE: shelly

i dont think its in town's best interest to discuss my vote movement at this time, but im happy to discuss the merits of a vote on shelly or the merits of a vote on walter. im guessing raya will understand what i mean based on past mind-melding at the very least.

Not sure I know THE reason but I can see possible ways to read her play as scummy. Don't think I agree though.

[Raya36]

Not sure I know THE reason but I can see possible ways to read her play as scummy. Don't think I agree though.

If you see my play as scummy, why do you not agree with the vote on me? Contradiction.

I don't think your play is scummy but I see how it could be read as scummy.

[Raya36]

UNVOTE:
reading

Weird opening imo. This is pure gut but more than a bit scummy to me

huh?

The unvote didn't alert me. The uptight entrance of "reading" did. The tone to me was almost like reading the thread was a burden to them.

This makes no sense and could be read as you trying to form a case out of nothing. Or maybe you were having trouble as scum to find something to scumread/comment on. It's also much more difficult for scum to look at someone who is town and make up reasons for them to be scummy. This could be read as grasping at straws.

A vote on Italiano is kind of opportunistic if they're town.

i still feel like cfj will be easy to evaluate after some flips, but is a bit messy today. i am suspicious, but dont want to lynch there today. that said, VOTE: shelly

i dont think its in town's best interest to discuss my vote movement at this time, but im happy to discuss the merits of a vote on shelly or the merits of a vote on walter. im guessing raya will understand what i mean based on past mind-melding at the very least.

CFJ's posting is confusing, but confident and I think I see a town mindset

I'm fine if you want to park your vote on me. My pure town energy will shine through.

The cfj part is quite surface level

[Raya36]

Nope. You're newbtown from my understanding. The first part I said //could// be ready as you forming a case out of nothing. What I really think it is is newbtown trying to find something to comment on. It's also easy to understand why newbtown would join an opportunistic wagon.

[Raya36]

also worth noting that italiano is taking this opportunity of pressure on him and plausible counterwagon and NOT being opportunistic.

This statement really got me thinking. If you haven't already, I recommend reading Italiano and Walter in double ISO, following how they interact with each other.

The first wagon on Walter starts at #238 by Nosferatu. Italiano's next post, #266, is denouncing it. (At the time, I assumed that this was Italiano reading the situation the same way I was, and townread Italiano for it. I think I was wrong, though.)

Italiano had previously implied a townread or at least "no reason to think scum" read on Nosferatu (#234).
Walter attacked Nosferatu around the time Nosferatu voted Walter (#249, #257, #278).
Soon after, Italiano was attacking Nosferatu too (#281, vote in #294).

The Nosferatu wagon sits at four votes for a while. Then I derail it, based primarily on a gut read (#367).
Italiano places a (what is to me) surprising scumread on me in #381 and vote in #382. (This is the third vote, after RCEnigma and Nosferatu.)
Walter does not join this wagon (although he does ask lots of questions about it, that's natural when it's the largest wagon).
Eventually Walter calls me "70% certainty" of town (#614); this is technically a mild scumread (assuming a 10:3 setup, a hypothetically town Walter would think a perfectly null read was 75% likely to be town.)

The CFJ wagon sits at four votes for a while.
Then it starts shrinking, as Tayl0r moves to Walter (#634); that wagon's now the same size as mine (N_M voted Walter in #600).
Italiano reacts surprisingly strongly to this (#655), in effect complaining that the wagons should be on me and/or Nosferatu.
Italiano then defends Walter by attacking the wagon (#674, #675).

Walter earlier agreed with me that #655 is scummy (#659), but doesn't vote for Italiano.
As Tayl0r pointed out, there is notable pressure on Italiano but he has no interest at all in the counterwagon on Walter (instead, he's primarily been attacking me).

---

What I get out of all this is that Italiano is focused quite heavily on defending Walter. Whenever there's a wagon on Walter, Italiano votes the counterwagon (except that with this most recent wagon, the counterwagon to Walter is Italiano himself, and his response is to complain that people aren't on the wagons that previously collapsed!). Basically every time anyone scumreads Walter, Italiano attacks the

read

(but Italiano has only twice actually called Walter town, placing him top of a townread list in #381, without explanation; and giving a gut townread in #687). The attacks tend to be with weak or no reasoning, too (e.g. #674 attacks a read as "sheeping Not_Mafia", and you can't really sheep someone who never explains).

I think the most plausible explanations for all this are:
a) Italiano and Walter are scum together.
b) Italiano is scum (with Walter town), and wants everyone to think that Walter is scum alongside him, in the hope that we end up voting out Walter and Italiano can end up being vindicated by the townflip.

In either case, though, Italiano ends up as being scum. Unless someone can find meta evidence otherwise, I don't think it makes sense for a hypothetically town Italiano to defend Walter

this

hard based only on a gut read.

Actually I don't think this post comes from scum. This shows a true scumhunting mindset that I think would be really hard to replicate as scum, especially in that case knowing that the players in question are town.

[Raya36]

Actually I don't think this post comes from scum. This shows a true scumhunting mindset that I think would be really hard to replicate as scum, especially in that case knowing that the players in question are town.

would u say this is the first post from cfg u find to exhibit this quality

I wouldn't say the first but it's the one that shows that quality the strongest to me.

[Raya36]

it is a totally average NAI post its not even scumhunting its literally a (totally skewed) timeline but yall wanna pretend it totally spews town like uhh what

How is it not scumhunting? It's a timeline used to introduce and explain a scumread

[Raya36]

I'd be willing to compromise to Walter > geraintm > Shelly
I'm v/la for most of today (Saturday) but I'll be here before deadline

[Raya36]

Also I'm not interested in a NM policy lynch or whatever

[Raya36]

I'm more interested in cfj's theory than I am worried about how he was town reading shelly although I am suspicious of both.

VOTE: Walter

[Raya36]

I feel like there's a pretty good chance scum is between cfj or Walter though

[Raya36]

I feel like there's a pretty good chance scum is between cfj or Walter though

So you're saying both scum bussed shelly?

No. I'm saying one of those two are probably scum. But that is an interesting theory considering the idea that the elimination was scum driven

[Raya36]

ok but do you know each other's roles? because a scum-town neighborhood is definitely a thing

Scum!Walter would have likely NKed the FN. Nobody would know for sure if it was luck or if Walter knew.

UNVOTE:

[Raya36]

And I appreciate that a lot. It's going to come up eventually, but I am the Friendly town neighbor and I share a neighborhood with Walter.

Do you have the ability to confirm yourself to people overnight?

If so, who did you confirm yourself to last night?

ok italiano. its time for you and walter to explain why you were so confident in each other yesterday. i dont like your entrance to today, and while i covered for you yesterday i think you owe an explanation to everyone for what you crumbed yesterday.

And I appreciate that a lot. It's going to come up eventually, but I am the Friendly town neighbor and I share a neighborhood with Walter.

and did the mod confirm to you that walter is town?

This is true
Me and italiano are in a neighborhood

ok but do you know each other's roles? because a scum-town neighborhood is definitely a thing

I'm reading panic here.

Another thing is there is no attempt to read Walter's alignment from this new info. It makes much more sense that Walter is town in this situation or I'd expect Italiano to be dead instead of confirmed right now. Not worth the town cred of keeping the FN alive in my opinion.

This reads as Taylor guessing that Walter is not confirmed to be town and therefore using that to try to place doubt.

[Raya36]

At this point it's very unlikely that Italiano is scum; a Friendly Neighbour claim is hard to substantiate as scum (you have to keep claiming to target your buddies and/or the nightkill), and easy to prove as town (that's literally what the role does, proving itself as town). It would be helpful to verify that the claim has actually been substantiated before day ends, though, otherwise it'll lead us to be paranoid into future days.

If scum knew that Italiano was a Friendly Neighbour, that would make him an obvious nightkill choice. So it's also useful to know whether Walter knew Italiano was a Friendly Neighbour prior to the end of Night 1; if he did, that somewhat reduces the chance that Walter is scum.

@Tayl0r: mods (and playerlists!) differ on how much utility a T/S neighbourhood gives to town and/or scum. Some mods think that such a neighbourhood helps town (you can quiz your neighbour in the PT, figure out they're scum, and sometimes even figure out their buddies by the way they talk over the game with you); I once caught 2 out of 3 members of a scumteam because I was in a neighbourhood with one of them. But recently, players have had a tendency to assume that neighbourhoods are T/T, so some mods/reviewers will balance a T/S neighbourhood as though it helps scum and put in extra town power to compensate.

This is a good post. I definitely agree we should have the receiver of the FN message claim by the end of the day so we can confirm italiano is town. And it's also important to know if Walter knew about Italiano being the FN.

[Raya36]

• Who did ItalianoVD target N1?

---

ok but do you know each other's roles? because a scum-town neighborhood is definitely a thing

Scum!Walter would have likely NKed the FN. Nobody would know for sure if it was luck or if Walter knew.

UNVOTE:

This doesn't make sense to me. How can you assume that Italiano targeted Walter?

This is on the assumption that Italiano told Walter (since he townread him so strongly). Waiting in confirmation of this.

[Raya36]

I am not in a PT

[Raya36]

At this point it's very unlikely that Italiano is scum; a Friendly Neighbour claim is hard to substantiate as scum (you have to keep claiming to target your buddies and/or the nightkill), and easy to prove as town (that's literally what the role does, proving itself as town). It would be helpful to verify that the claim has actually been substantiated before day ends, though, otherwise it'll lead us to be paranoid into future days.

If scum knew that Italiano was a Friendly Neighbour, that would make him an obvious nightkill choice. So it's also useful to know whether Walter knew Italiano was a Friendly Neighbour prior to the end of Night 1; if he did, that somewhat reduces the chance that Walter is scum.

@Tayl0r: mods (and playerlists!) differ on how much utility a T/S neighbourhood gives to town and/or scum. Some mods think that such a neighbourhood helps town (you can quiz your neighbour in the PT, figure out they're scum, and sometimes even figure out their buddies by the way they talk over the game with you); I once caught 2 out of 3 members of a scumteam because I was in a neighbourhood with one of them. But recently, players have had a tendency to assume that neighbourhoods are T/T, so some mods/reviewers will balance a T/S neighbourhood as though it helps scum and put in extra town power to compensate.

This is a good post. I definitely agree we should have the receiver of the FN message claim by the end of the day so we can confirm italiano is town. And it's also important to know if Walter knew about Italiano being the FN.

I did not know about Italiano being the FN prior to N1.
I only knew it when he posted it in thread here.

Thank you

Scratch my post where I assumed Walter knew

[Raya36]

I feel like there's a pretty good chance scum is between cfj or Walter though

Why this, exactly?

It's based mainly on my scumread of them both. However cfj cases Walter in 869 which makes me feel like there's one between the two but not both.

[Raya36]

I don't trust RCE at all after that fake claim. There was 0 benefit to town

[Raya36]

ok and im back to having enigma as scum. you outed me as PR and there were better ways of getting everyone to claim whether they were in a PT. you also didnt answer the question about whether you are ascetic. VOTE: enigma

Uhh, no I didn't. You brought up claiming hoods so it would make your role make sense.

This was before I claimed.

at this point it may be helpful for everyone to claim whether or not they are in a neighborhood. no need to claim neighbors, but it would be very helpful for me to understand my role. i can claim/explain everything or at least something based on what people say.

Since we're making assumptions.

Assumption 1: frog is in a hood
Assumption 2: this game is not 9-4
Assumption 3: I can end this game by day 3 potentially.

I'm a PT cop and have a result on someone that is not frog/walter/Italiano.

For reference.

This read as overdefensive

[Raya36]

Alright. RCE it is

VOTE: RCE

[Raya36]

Also for the record I read Taylor as town. I don't think her claim is disingenuous

[Raya36]

Also noting that I don't like Looker putting doubt on the claims (especially Taylor)

[Raya36]

Alright. RCE it is

VOTE: RCE

why did you have to wait for my permission to hop on the wagon after stating that you thought it was a good wagon?

I was going to anyway I was just still posting my reasoning and reading

[Raya36]

VOTE: Raya having second thoughts about cfj but Raya is scum in every solve.

Then you need to reconsider if I'm town. The only cases I've seen for me is scummy but not explaining why and doing bare mininum/lurking. And if you want an explanation for that I just started university online classes and I'm still getting used to that. This isn't really my priority right now but I'm still doing my best to be here

[Raya36]

Also noting that I don't like Looker putting doubt on the claims (especially Taylor)

What do you gain from this overdefense of Tayl0r? What do you lose from me being appropriately suspicious of roles that aren't confirmed?



VOTE: Looker

How is that an over defense of Taylor? I think the claim is genuine and I don't like the shade you're putting on it. Yes we should confirm the claims by the end of the day. But putting shade on them right now does no good.

[Raya36]

Also meant to ask why the self vote?

[Raya36]

Also noting that I don't like Looker putting doubt on the claims (especially Taylor)

What do you gain from this overdefense of Tayl0r? What do you lose from me being appropriately suspicious of roles that aren't confirmed?



VOTE: Looker

How is that an over defense of Taylor? I think the claim is genuine and I don't like the shade you're putting on it. Yes we should confirm the claims by the end of the day. But putting shade on them right now does no good.

it just feels like most of your posts today have been an attempt to pocket me

Fair but not my intentions

[Raya36]

@Taylor: 952 is a joke right?

@Raya: Did you ever look into Walter’s meta? (224). And did you ever go back? (299)

And am I the only one who DIDN’T think Frogster was in a neighborhood?

I skimmed some Walter meta and I didnt go back through cfj

[Raya36]

• Where is WaltertheDunce10?

---

Spoiler:

Also noting that I don't like Looker putting doubt on the claims (especially Taylor)

What do you gain from this overdefense of Tayl0r? What do you lose from me being appropriately suspicious of roles that aren't confirmed?



VOTE: Looker

How is that an over defense of Taylor? I think the claim is genuine and I don't like the shade you're putting on it. Yes we should confirm the claims by the end of the day. But putting shade on them right now does no good.

That's not making sense to me. "confirm[ing] the claims by the end of the day" requires suspicion. Why would my suspicion upset you

Suspicion is fine but you claimed to have suspicion on all of the claims and it read more like scum trying to gently push the claimed PRs before they become confirmed

[Raya36]

@

Frogsterking

: Have you forgotten your screenfuls-long posts on Nosferatu? #255 and #288.

By comparison, you did basically nothing to push shelly. You had a mild scumread in #488 and didn't make any cases for a stronger read all Day (and admitted as much in #784). The only actual pushing you did was #854, very late in the Day (it's after the deadline freeze had occurred).

You're currently posting as though you had a super-strong read on shelly throughout, but your day 1 posts don't match that very well.

Not a fan of this deflection. He was talking about your progress on Shelly and related slots. His position on Shelly is irrelevant

[Raya36]

I’m not a fan of how cfj is interacting with frogster, feels like discrediting. It seems like cfj wants to smear frog’s reputation just on principle

I agree with this

[Raya36]

@Taylor: 952 is a joke right?

@Raya: Did you ever look into Walter’s meta? (224). And did you ever go back? (299)

And am I the only one who DIDN’T think Frogster was in a neighborhood?

I skimmed some Walter meta and I didnt go back through cfj

1) What did you find from skimming through Walter? 2) So then you just said you were gonna go back through cfj because it sounded good, but wasn’t actually planning on doing it?

1) I didn't find anything of the same nature in either his town or scum games. However I can note that he seems to post more and be much more transparent as town. Although that can only he taken on surface value since that's based on only 1 scum game.

2) life got busy and I didn't have the time/energy/motivation to go through all those long posts

[Raya36]

Not really sure how to defend myself when I'm not really seeing a case

[Raya36]

I'm starting to see cfj as more town though

[Raya36]

who do you think is scum now raya? and why

Walter for the non-committal start and weak pushes such as this pushing the fake claim early game to be PR fishing.
RCE for the fakeclaim thing that drew out town PRs and had 0 benefit for town. He also seemed overdefensive on that topic.

I really need to read and get back into the game because I'm very detached right now

[Raya36]

Also I 100% agree that whoever got the FN message should either claim or be revealed by Italiano today and preferably not too late in the day. There is absolutely no reason for town to hold this info back.

I also am concerned about the Shelly wagon, I just haven't had the time to think too much into it.

[Raya36]

What good does it do to hold it back? Claiming to receive the message doesn't make you a target. It doesn't make Italiano any more of a target. It doesn't out any extra info to scum outside of confirming Italiano. Claiming does take away any suspicion on Italiano and helps town in that way.

[Raya36]

Cfj, I think you're wrong here...the way Italiano wrote his isos is exactly how I do to organize events for quick reference to later draw conclusions from

[Raya36]

I agree with 1159.
A little confused on why a tfn would want to send it to a scummy player, and I agree on not sending it to people who may be nkd.
Where does this lead us though?
@Raya Does the fact that Italiano and I are in a neighborhood influence your read on me?

I consider it NAI unless Italiano really strongly reads you town from neighborhood interactions

[Raya36]

I think this is a good time for Italiano to claim who he sent the message to

[Raya36]

I think this is a good time for Italiano to claim who he sent the message to

Why?

if theres only one neighborhood i find it to be exceptionally unlikely that its town-scum. if you're saying theres scum in you and walter,

then it almost has to be you cfj.

Yup.

Because of exactly what cfj said in 1185. All this is doing is hurting town. There is no reason for you not to claim who the message was sent to. If you have a reason I'd like to hear it.

[Raya36]

Spoiler:

who do you think is scum now raya? and why

Walter for the non-committal start and weak pushes such as this pushing the fake claim early game to be PR fishing.
RCE for the fakeclaim thing that drew out town PRs and had 0 benefit for town. He also seemed overdefensive on that topic.

I really need to read and get back into the game because I'm very detached right now

Are you saying that Walter's scum because he didn't push hard enough the thing that you're pushing?

Um no? I never said that at all.

Also I 100% agree that whoever got the FN message should either claim or be revealed by Italiano today and preferably not too late in the day. There is absolutely no reason for town to hold this info back.

I also am concerned about the Shelly wagon, I just haven't had the time to think too much into it.

What good does it do to hold it back? Claiming to receive the message doesn't make you a target. It doesn't make Italiano any more of a target. It doesn't out any extra info to scum outside of confirming Italiano. Claiming does take away any suspicion on Italiano and helps town in that way.

I think Italiano's lying. Two fakeclaims and a half-claim.

I'm starting to think it's all a lie too. Although most likely a lie coming from town.

[Raya36]

If it is a fakeclaim then why tell me in neighbor chat where he sent it too.
That would out his scumbuddy.

If you know you should be telling us. Italiano is hurting town and you holding back info is hurting town too.

[Raya36]

Uhh, Italiano is fine shutting up until his target outs.

Why?

[Raya36]

It isn't a big deal and if his target doesn't out he can just out it before deadline or preferably in twilight.

And what if they still don't

[Raya36]

I think this is a good time for Italiano to claim who he sent the message to

Why?

if theres only one neighborhood i find it to be exceptionally unlikely that its town-scum. if you're saying theres scum in you and walter,

then it almost has to be you cfj.

Yup.

Because of exactly what cfj said in 1185. All this is doing is hurting town. There is no reason for you not to claim who the message was sent to. If you have a reason I'd like to hear it.

If it is a fakeclaim then why tell me in neighbor chat where he sent it too.
That would out his scumbuddy.

If you know you should be telling us. Italiano is hurting town and you holding back info is hurting town too.

Tell me in your own words why it’s “hurting” town? Do you know?

1. Without you being confirmed because your message receiver hasn't spoken up puts suspicion on your slot. I honestly am thinking you're lying at this point but as a town reaction test, see how people react to an unconfirmed FN claim and see who tries to push it etc. This makes no sense coming from scum.

2. It does make reading players harder when one of the major events is your FN claim. The other major event being the Shelly wagon and contemplation on why it happened. I've been assuming you're town when reading but I hate trying to get reads on other players based on any associations with you. Especially knowing full well any reads slightly related to you could end up being thrown out and fully reevaluated. And I know I don't have to consider interactions with you and assume you're town but that's how I think when I read games. As soon as I confirm someone as town or locktown a player I start to think about how other players interacted with them.

3. If we find out last minute that you're not confirmed and could possibly be scum then that puts town in a pretty bad position, especially if any aspect of our reads are based on you being town. It means we would have to fully reevaluate with not much time left which could lead to a bad decision. I would also hate for a mis-elimination to go through knowing that we didn't have all the information we could have had and maybe with that information could've gotten scum.

[Raya36]

Isn't it somewhat likely at this point that the person you targeted is scum (assuming that your action went through, which you seem to be assuming even though I haven't)? They've failed to confirm you despite numerous opportunities and numerous people trying to convince them to do so, when there is no pro-town reason not to, and when they've been asked to do so by you (who should be confirmed town to them and thus they should be following your instructions).

I have a feeling this is true. This is why I'm pushing so hard for it to be claimed. Because for someone to hold it back this long for no apparent reasons besides I suppose reactions tests makes no sense. Its scummy and anti-town at best.

[Raya36]

I think this is a good time for Italiano to claim who he sent the message to

Why?

if theres only one neighborhood i find it to be exceptionally unlikely that its town-scum. if you're saying theres scum in you and walter,

then it almost has to be you cfj.

Yup.

Because of exactly what cfj said in 1185. All this is doing is hurting town. There is no reason for you not to claim who the message was sent to. If you have a reason I'd like to hear it.

If it is a fakeclaim then why tell me in neighbor chat where he sent it too.
That would out his scumbuddy.

If you know you should be telling us. Italiano is hurting town and you holding back info is hurting town too.

Tell me in your own words why it’s “hurting” town? Do you know?

1. Without you being confirmed because your message receiver hasn't spoken up puts suspicion on your slot. I honestly am thinking you're lying at this point but as a town reaction test, see how people react to an unconfirmed FN claim and see who tries to push it etc. This makes no sense coming from scum.

2. It does make reading players harder when one of the major events is your FN claim. The other major event being the Shelly wagon and contemplation on why it happened. I've been assuming you're town when reading but I hate trying to get reads on other players based on any associations with you. Especially knowing full well any reads slightly related to you could end up being thrown out and fully reevaluated. And I know I don't have to consider interactions with you and assume you're town but that's how I think when I read games. As soon as I confirm someone as town or locktown a player I start to think about how other players interacted with them.

3. If we find out last minute that you're not confirmed and could possibly be scum then that puts town in a pretty bad position, especially if any aspect of our reads are based on you being town. It means we would have to fully reevaluate with not much time left which could lead to a bad decision. I would also hate for a mis-elimination to go through knowing that we didn't have all the information we could have had and maybe with that information could've gotten scum.

This all sounds oddly familiar.

The reasoning is similar to what cfj said... you asked for it in my own words so there you go

[Raya36]

Isn't it somewhat likely at this point that the person you targeted is scum (assuming that your action went through, which you seem to be assuming even though I haven't)? They've failed to confirm you despite numerous opportunities and numerous people trying to convince them to do so, when there is no pro-town reason not to, and when they've been asked to do so by you (who should be confirmed town to them and thus they should be following your instructions).

I have a feeling this is true. This is why I'm pushing so hard for it to be claimed. Because for someone to hold it back this long for no apparent reasons besides I suppose reactions tests makes no sense. Its scummy and anti-town at best.

So then I should just vote for you, put you at L-1 and then claim the target? Then someone can hammer you?

If it gets the target claimed then honestly just do it. My slots not the best for mylo anyway when we eventually get there.

[Raya36]

If someone on the Raya wagon would prefer to push that one through, I'd be interested to hear your case

honestly if i wasnt scumreading raya i wouldnt remember that shes in the game

100 posts with almost no substance, no impact on the game that i can think of, and she also refuses to put her vote where her mouth is wrt the italiano claim, almost like she knows that he's town and knows his claim will get confirmed

I've said at least once or twice that I think Italiano is town making a bad decision and playing in an anti-town manner. I don't think scum would risk this kind of gambit. They don't even really get anything from it. Plus he seems to genuinely think what he's doing isn't hurting town. I strongly disagree with that but will never vote Italiano today because I think he is town.

[Raya36]

Okay so I want to give my thoughts on all the ISO’s I’ve done in connection with the banana/shelly slot. First:

UNVOTE: callforjudgment

Of course I will be referring to 1145 & 1170. I placed them in thread as reference for not only myself, but for the town as well. Not sure if anyone else has read them both and has come up with their own theories/opinions, but that was the purpose. I have a lot to get into, so this is the first post of many.

There were a lot of mentions to the banana/shelly slot; everyone in the playerlist mentioned the slot at least once. However when it came to actual interactions (speaking directly to the slot) I grouped them like so:

~ interactions for the sake of having interactions; no follow up
~ interactions to get a read; sort the slot, answer questions, push, etc.
~ no interactions at all

Now those who fit the first category are (Taylor, Looker, RCEnigma). Those who fit the second category are (Walter, myself, Raya, Nosferatu, geraintm, gamma, callforjudgment) Those in the last category is (Frogsterking)

I also did an iso on the banana/shelly slot and noticed something: In 82 Banana sort of gives callforjudgment a pass for his long post and doesn’t scumread him. In 691 shellyc said she saw a town mindset from call.

Why was this slot the only one that saw callforjudgment as possible town, while pretty much everyone else saw him as scummy or scumread him? Now I don’t know about Banana, but Shelly has precedence for bussing her partner and I don’t see her buddying up at all. Although the slot didn’t actually vote for call I think if call was scum I believe both Banana and shelly would have either distanced or bussed or at the very least placed him down as a scumread, should he flip (given he was getting heat for some time). This makes me think that callforjudgment is actually town.

I've also been getting that feeling from cfj in general too. Maybe a bit biased but why defend me and start a counter wagon when I'd be an easy miselim and not many questions would be asked. He even kinda set it up by saying he was worried about me trying to buddy him. Doesn't make much sense as scum.

[Raya36]

And don’t pressure Walter. He doesn’t know and it’s not his decision.

Then why did he say he did?

I'm curious about this too

[Raya36]

Raya if you scum read CFJ why not join his wagon? You've commented multiple times now you view him as scummy.

I'm shifting towards town reading him now

[Raya36]

Anyone come to a similar conclusion about callforjudgment in 1275? Or am I off in this?

That’s not really part of my read on him at all

My heart and my gut say to townread cfj, but my head is telling me the few bits of potentially scummy behavior from him are worth pursuing
So I’d vote him around deadline but I’d rather listen to my gut vs. my head

This post looks like horse crap. Shoot Gamma up to FoS #2.

Raya it's your insistence on voting Walter that make me read you as scum or stubborn townie.

I don't currently scumread anyone else. I'm not really insistent on it being Walter and if anyone can convince me it's someone else I'd be willing to move but so far nobody has done that.

[Raya36]

Also is it your meta to not scumread players? @Raya

Not exactly but I do have a preferance of town hunting. I'm just particularly detached from this game. I'll get on that reads list you asked for sometime today and I'll iso some players I'm blurry on. Maybe I'll get back into the game that way.

[Raya36]

I agree with taylor
Raya what made you change your mind?

Exactly what I wrote changed my mind. Why would i he so blatant and interact with my partner. Look at my scumgames. I don't do that. Ever.

[Raya36]

Spoiler:

Walter for the non-committal start and weak pushes such as this pushing the fake claim early game to be PR fishing.
RCE for the fakeclaim thing that drew out town PRs and had 0 benefit for town. He also seemed overdefensive on that topic.

I really need to read and get back into the game because I'm very detached right now

Are you saying that Walter's scum because he didn't push hard enough the thing that you're pushing?

Um no? I never said that at all.

Spoiler:

Also I 100% agree that whoever got the FN message should either claim or be revealed by Italiano today and preferably not too late in the day. There is absolutely no reason for town to hold this info back.

I also am concerned about the Shelly wagon, I just haven't had the time to think too much into it.

What good does it do to hold it back? Claiming to receive the message doesn't make you a target. It doesn't make Italiano any more of a target. It doesn't out any extra info to scum outside of confirming Italiano. Claiming does take away any suspicion on Italiano and helps town in that way.

I think Italiano's lying. Two fakeclaims and a half-claim.

I'm starting to think it's all a lie too. Although most likely a lie coming from town.

• Well then, can you clarify?
  • You said RCE was scum for PR fishing, but said Walter was probably scum for weak pushes and saying that fakeclaims were PR fishing.

Those were two different situations though. I didn't think what Walter was pushing at the time was PR fishing and his pushed were weak. This is a completely difference instant.

[Raya36]

Okay so I want to give my thoughts on all the ISO’s I’ve done in connection with the banana/shelly slot. First:

UNVOTE: callforjudgment

Of course I will be referring to 1145 & 1170. I placed them in thread as reference for not only myself, but for the town as well. Not sure if anyone else has read them both and has come up with their own theories/opinions, but that was the purpose. I have a lot to get into, so this is the first post of many.

There were a lot of mentions to the banana/shelly slot; everyone in the playerlist mentioned the slot at least once. However when it came to actual interactions (speaking directly to the slot) I grouped them like so:

~ interactions for the sake of having interactions; no follow up
~ interactions to get a read; sort the slot, answer questions, push, etc.
~ no interactions at all

Now those who fit the first category are (Taylor, Looker, RCEnigma). Those who fit the second category are (Walter, myself, Raya, Nosferatu, geraintm, gamma, callforjudgment) Those in the last category is (Frogsterking)

I also did an iso on the banana/shelly slot and noticed something: In 82 Banana sort of gives callforjudgment a pass for his long post and doesn’t scumread him. In 691 shellyc said she saw a town mindset from call.

Why was this slot the only one that saw callforjudgment as possible town, while pretty much everyone else saw him as scummy or scumread him? Now I don’t know about Banana, but Shelly has precedence for bussing her partner and I don’t see her buddying up at all. Although the slot didn’t actually vote for call I think if call was scum I believe both Banana and shelly would have either distanced or bussed or at the very least placed him down as a scumread, should he flip (given he was getting heat for some time). This makes me think that callforjudgment is actually town.

I've also been getting that feeling from cfj in general too. Maybe a bit biased but why defend me and start a counter wagon when I'd be an easy miselim and not many questions would be asked. He even kinda set it up by saying he was worried about me trying to buddy him. Doesn't make much sense as scum.

"...why defend me and start a counter wagon when I'd be an easy miselim and not many questions would be asked."

To drag out the conflict as a distraction while he phishes for

every

pr, then pocket you (in case someone else is lynched) or collect town cred for "defending" you in case you do get lynched.

I guess that's possible but it doesn't really feel like that

[Raya36]

@Raya: Your responses to my questions seem very townie looking at face value. I can’t know if this is your meta or not. Why do you feel it was okay to sacrifice shelly?

I feel like from my perspective I usually come across quite townie when I actually try as town. I wish I could give this game that effort right now. As scum I tend to be pretty obvious, I come across as unnatural and it's easy to see through my plans. Of course scum always feel like their scummy so maybe I'm not as bad at scum as I think?

I don't remember saying I was okay with sacrificing Shelly but there was a lot of suspicion on that slot so even if I read it as town I'd have been fine with the elimination. I did consistently read her as scummy-appearing town. It's still interesting how easy that elimination went through when there wasn't much of a push.

[Raya36]

• Is Raya just really busy?

Yes

[Raya36]

Also to answer taylor:

My team is RCE/Walter
I'm not sure about my third

[Raya36]

Yes Raya and Italiano are both motivated by fear of being incorrect.

Italiano is more specific in that his fear is in being incorrect about his scum reads, which is causing him to double take his reads continuously. Raya also appears to fear being incorrect about her scum read on Walter, with the opposite reaction of doubling down under pressure.

Raya, the issue I have with your slot is that you're not only absent from the game, you also appear significantly guarded in your thoughts and feelings. Being busy explains the absence but not necessarily the guardedness.

I think appearing guarded in this lobby is quite a feat, because I don't think this is the most trusting group of people in the world.

I don't feel like I'm guarding my thoughts and feelings? If there's anything you'd like to know I'm happy to answer

[Raya36]

I believe Raya has maybe played with some other players here before?

Yes I've played with a few people on the list before

[Raya36]

• Is Raya just really busy?

Yes

A response to Post 1327 would've been better.

Sorry, missed that.

Spoiler:

Um no? I never said that at all.


I'm starting to think it's all a lie too. Although most likely a lie coming from town.

• Well then, can you clarify?
  • You said RCE was scum for PR fishing, but said Walter was probably scum for weak pushes and saying that fakeclaims were PR fishing.

Those were two different situations though. I didn't think what Walter was pushing at the time was PR fishing and his pushed were weak. This is a completely difference instant.

I'm getting things confused. Which post numbers were for which instances?

So this is what Walter was pushing as PR fishing: 397. It was just a joke, not PR pushing at all. And I think it was scummy of Walter to push it as PR fishing.
This is RCE's fakeclaim that I'm scumreading: 192.

[Raya36]

I believe Raya has maybe played with some other players here before?

Yes I've played with a few people on the list before

Does that happen to be the players you're voting with?

Just RCE I believe?

[Raya36]

I also don't have a meta read on RCE

[Raya36]

@Raya: Your responses to my questions seem very townie looking at face value. I can’t know if this is your meta or not. Why do you feel it was okay to sacrifice shelly?

I feel like from my perspective I usually come across quite townie when I actually try as town. I wish I could give this game that effort right now. As scum I tend to be pretty obvious, I come across as unnatural and it's easy to see through my plans. Of course scum always feel like their scummy so maybe I'm not as bad at scum as I think?

Without knowing how you actually play as both alignments it’s hard to know what you mean by “obvious” and “unnatural”. What differences are there or can be seen when you are “trying as town” as opposed to not trying?

Honestly I'm not too sure but when I was more active over the summer I noticed that I was getting correctly townread quite a bit and they were usually voiced to be strong townreads. I think a part of it is as town I'll be very transparent, ask players lots of questions, genuinely try to be engaged and post lots. I'm much less open as scum and I'm always worried about what I'm saying being scummy whereas as town I don't really care as much if I sound scummy. And also as scum I struggle to come up with my own pushes and sometimes and I think it shows.

I don't remember saying I was okay with sacrificing Shelly but there was a lot of suspicion on that slot so even if I read it as town I'd have been fine with the elimination. I did consistently read her as scummy-appearing town. It's still interesting how easy that elimination went through when there wasn't much of a push.

It may go against the grain, but I like this response. I was asking Raya this question as if she was scum sacrificing her scumbuddy and she answered it oblivious to the reasoning behind the question. If you are faking this response Raya, then kudos to you.

Oh I thought you meant sacrifice as in eliminate since I had a townread on her.

[Raya36]

Those were two different situations though. I didn't think what Walter was pushing at the time was PR fishing and his pushed were weak. This is a completely difference instant.

I'm getting things confused. Which post numbers were for which instances?

So this is what Walter was pushing as PR fishing: 397. It was just a joke, not PR pushing at all. And I think it was scummy of Walter to push it as PR fishing.
This is RCE's fakeclaim that I'm scumreading: 192.

• Where was Walter pushing this?
  
• Post 192 is a Gamma Emerald post, not a fakeclaim from RCE

Oops 912

Looks like we both got confused. This was the fake claim he pushes. It was clearly fake and a joke because Nos just asked for someone to fake a guilty since they were bored. Then Walter quickly backs off when some of us disagree.
574

For Walter: 589, 599, 623

[Raya36]

@Raya: Your responses to my questions seem very townie looking at face value. I can’t know if this is your meta or not. Why do you feel it was okay to sacrifice shelly?

I feel like from my perspective I usually come across quite townie when I actually try as town. I wish I could give this game that effort right now. As scum I tend to be pretty obvious, I come across as unnatural and it's easy to see through my plans. Of course scum always feel like their scummy so maybe I'm not as bad at scum as I think?

Without knowing how you actually play as both alignments it’s hard to know what you mean by “obvious” and “unnatural”. What differences are there or can be seen when you are “trying as town” as opposed to not trying?

Honestly I'm not too sure but when I was more active over the summer I noticed that I was getting correctly townread quite a bit and they were usually voiced to be strong townreads. I think a part of it is as town I'll be very transparent, ask players lots of questions, genuinely try to be engaged and post lots. I'm much less open as scum and I'm always worried about what I'm saying being scummy whereas as town I don't really care as much if I sound scummy. And also as scum I struggle to come up with my own pushes and sometimes and I think it shows.

I don't remember saying I was okay with sacrificing Shelly but there was a lot of suspicion on that slot so even if I read it as town I'd have been fine with the elimination. I did consistently read her as scummy-appearing town. It's still interesting how easy that elimination went through when there wasn't much of a push.

It may go against the grain, but I like this response. I was asking Raya this question as if she was scum sacrificing her scumbuddy and she answered it oblivious to the reasoning behind the question. If you are faking this response Raya, then kudos to you.

Oh I thought you meant sacrifice as in eliminate since I had a townread on her.

i read over a couple of your towngames, and i have to say that this feels different than those other games. youve been pretty absent here and havent committed to any pushes.

I definitely agree that my play is very different this game and honestly more reflective of my scum game than my town game but it's not because I'm scum. Univeriery just started and it's all online (I'm in 7 courses) which I'm not used to so I needed to adjust to that the first couple weeks but now that I'm more adjusted I'm finding a bit more time to post. So hopefully that explains why I'm a bit more detached than usual.

[Raya36]

Also I feel like it's getting close to time for Raya to claim.

I'm not L-1

[Raya36]

I'll only ever claim at L-1 with intent

[Raya36]

What do you think is going to happen over the course of the next 48 hours?

I might get put at L-1 with intent. I might not. I'm not claiming before that happens

[Raya36]

For one thing, I believe a flash wagon on CFJ or Gamma is more likely than a flash wagon on RCE, because at least a few players have listed CFJ or Gamma as a compromise lynch. I'm personally willing to vote either one. If you're goal is to make it through D2 without getting to L-1, like it seems based on the statement you just said, then changing your vote to either of those players is a good place to start.

Second, I'm not willing to vote any of the players that were on-wagon D1, including your current vote, until I've seen flips or reports showing otherwise because I believe the shelly wagon was town driven. If you want to survive, much more get through today without getting to L-1, then I suggest you vote someone who was off-wagon that is being scumread by other players.

I'll consider it

[Raya36]

lets do an exercise: everyone post your gun to head scumteam of two people with one extra person who might be scum for me please. this could potentially provide very interesting data.

looking at {raya, gamma} rn

maybe {cfj} but im starting to turn around on him for no real reason in particular

For the excercise,
I would go with raya + CFJ. if CFJ is town then look at gamma/ looker/italiano.

i think cfj will be an extremely high-info lunch. but i think raya is by far the most likely to be scum, so id still prefer to lunch there. we can dine on cfj tomorrow.

For the record, between the two (Raya and CFJ) I am more willing to vote for CFJ than Raya.

@Raya

The above indicate to me that you're only option to make it through D2 without reaching l-1 and claiming is probably a CFJ flash wagon, but maybe a Gamma flash wagon as well. Like I said I will vote for either.

The RCE wagon has been a passionate and vocal minority but still a minority.

I don't think CFJ is scum. So that's a no. I don't really have any strong opinions on Gamma

[Raya36]

Is Nosferatu still here?

a little bored but still here

Does Raya's elimination taking this long further imply that she's scum to you?

Spoiler:

Those were two different situations though. I didn't think what Walter was pushing at the time was PR fishing and his pushed were weak. This is a completely difference instant.

I'm getting things confused. Which post numbers were for which instances?

So this is what Walter was pushing as PR fishing: 397. It was just a joke, not PR pushing at all. And I think it was scummy of Walter to push it as PR fishing.
This is RCE's fakeclaim that I'm scumreading: 192.

• Where was Walter pushing this?
  
• Post 192 is a Gamma Emerald post, not a fakeclaim from RCE

Oops 912

Looks like we both got confused. This was the fake claim he pushes. It was clearly fake and a joke because Nos just asked for someone to fake a guilty since they were bored. Then Walter quickly backs off when some of us disagree.
574

For Walter: 589, 599, 623

Just making sure. Yeah, I agree with Walter. RCE's move was suspicious, defense of it was suspicious. Also, Nos asking for it was in D1 whereas RCE fakeclaimed in D2 after a scumflip - the game being "boring" realistically no longer applied. Plus, I believe Walter more because he was on shellyc's wagon and you weren't.

Also I feel like it's getting close to time for Raya to claim.

you arent even on the wagon and it isnt at L-1....

I said something similar a few days ago. I didn't say claim, I just said that the day seems to be drifting towards their lynch and they should probably try and alter the course if they didn't want to get killed.

Don't think you hassled me over my post though :/

Is it Frogster fishing or do you think he actually intends to hammer

What do you think is going to happen over the course of the next 48 hours?

I might get put at L-1 with intent. I might not. I'm not claiming before that happens

Who are the off-wagon scumpartners giving you this confidence?

---

• CFJ's accusing me of vanity wagoning during shelly's lynch while vanity wagoning during Raya's lynch. He also ignores Gamma, who was also voting geraintm. 1469 is just a half-hearted self-reflection.
  
• Votecount 2.12 made me cry out loudly with a guffaw

[/list]

The fake claim that Walter pushed was 574 and was not_mafia not RCE...

What makes you so confident that I'm scum

[Raya36]

will saythat raya is acting either very cool or very disinterested about their status as leading wagon

I can't find any real reason to defend myself from outside of not being super active and I already explained that. I don't want to be eliminated, I'm town and from my POV my elimination is a guaranteed miselimination. But besides RCE (who doesnt seem to be happening) I don't know who I want to vote for. Although I'd be willing to compromise to frog if anyone wants to since I don't like his positioning lately. Walter is an option too but I don't think anybody would be going for that today.

[Raya36]

VOTE: Frog

[Raya36]

You don't think that contradiction could just come from scum?

[Raya36]

That's true and a good point. Maybe I'm reading his current stance wrong.

UNVOTE: Frog

Looking at the wagons there's me, RCE, Looker, Gamma, Frog. I'm town, I have no strong opinions on Gamma, I agree with what cfj just said about Frog likely being town. I'm moving back to RCE. I could maybe do Looker. I think he has a higher chance of being town than scum but I'm not convinced either way.
VOTE: RCE

[Raya36]

I'm a VT

[Raya36]

Well I tried

[Raya36]

I think so
Rce quite scummy for that

You assuming I'm town?

[Raya36]

Get Enigma. He was the most likely next option if people got off my wagon. He allowed no discussion of my claim. Didn't give a reason for hammering. Was scummy enough as is. Don't let him think about a reason for hammering the whole night then post it tomorrow and get out of this.

[Raya36]

It reads exactly as RCE's plan was to wait for the E-1 vote to get a quickhammer. No town motivation in that

[Raya36]

Plus the rolefishing fakeclaim

[Raya36]

Oh I didn't actually know it was E-1, I was in prod range again. I stand by my lynch decision.

Nobody sees me claim VT and doesnt know I was at E-1

[Raya36]

Get Enigma. He was the most likely next option if people got off my wagon. He allowed no discussion of my claim. Didn't give a reason for hammering. Was scummy enough as is. Don't let him think about a reason for hammering the whole night then post it tomorrow and get out of this.

You were my scumread the entire day and if I'm choosing between my elim and my scumreads elim. Well, that's tough.

The quickhammer is what made it all bad

[Raya36]

VOTE: Raya

Don't @ me.

this post reads like a hammer. you dont say "dont @ me, L-2!!!"

Exactly. He knew

[Raya36]

VOTE: Raya

Don't @ me.

this post reads like a hammer. you dont say "dont @ me, L-2!!!"

Honestly, lol yeah I could see that.

That was for the mod not to prod me though.

There's no need to vote as a prodge...

[Raya36]

lol Italiano he confirmed it
I agree with nos we launch rce for d3

I don’t know. I’ve been townreading RCE and his hammer doesn’t really change my thoughts on him. He said/kinda did the same thing Day 1, so he kinda has precedent for it.

You're 100% dying so this co-sign doesn't help me not get elimmed tomorrow.

It seems regardless of the flip even.

100% huh? Okay.

If Raya is scum, then I think you’re fine: bussing your partner in this situation with the suspicion you have on you is scumscuicide, game over. I think you only get got if she flips green. People are being emotional right now and not thinking. It very much depends on the flip.

I'm town

[Raya36]

RCE is trying so hard to defend his hammer while still sounding like he doesnt care and doesnt have to defend it. This is scum

[Raya36]

@Raya: I thought you didn’t seem to care. At least that’s what your responses sounded like pregame right. Why are you fighting?

It's not that I don't care about the game. I just didn't care that much if I got eliminated because in the long run I'm a good miselimination compared to others. I still want town to win. I think RCE is scum and I'll make that known before I can no longer post.

[Raya36]

GG. Thank you George Bailey for modding! I feel bad about how it ended for me. I didn't anticipate online school to be as time consuming as it is. Wish I could've been around more