PS- Sup Ythill? Here we are again.
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
Why would I do that? So far (in this game) I get mostly town vibes from you. Now if you don't mind, I've just gotten the Cascade Badge from Misty. Errr, I mean, started the second half of my analysis. (Anal Leases)nhat wrote:Both Darox and Kuribo replaced into this game? This has officially become the most hell-esque game of Mafia in the history of ever.
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But honestly, looking forward to your thoughts. Here's to you two not gang-raping me in this game!
Do you really think I'm dumb enough to have formed an opinion on you by Page 2? And then based my entire analysis on that? Way to minimize everything I laid out. (You fail)nureins wrote:
After that, I guess all your vision of me is clearly biased because you think I backed from siding with tpt, and so on...
Great work anyway.
This post very quickly served to discredit Matin's concerns about TPT:nureins wrote:
I never helped pope at all. Might you explain what you meant with that ?
nureins wrote: I saw it that way before TPT, I also want a bandwagon !!
Now seriously, after all the posts about the topic, I see two things in Matin's words:
1) that he felt Jahudo stole his vote for ectomancer. This part is what Matin used as any other reason he could use to make a "joke" vote on jahudo. And this is the part that Goatrevolt and Jahudo pointed out. I do not find this part very relevant, as I take Matin's way of voting as any joking way.
2) that he "changed" his mind from voting when jahudo stole the vote. I pointed out this question and later TPT insisted. In my view, not a very serious issue, so I just raised a question delicately to Matin in order to see his answer. I agree that he shouldnt be worried about putting a second vote on someone, and that hidding in the forest is not a good help for us...we do not need townies hidding if they are townies...now I want more words from Matin-jahudo-TPT-Goatrevolt-nhat to clarify my mind...
It's called, "One of you has been acting scummy in my mind, and the other has not." Also, tossed in with a bit of "One of you seems to be genuinely scumhunting, the other just wants a lynch."Cass wrote:No particular reason. Might as well have been your name there, I didn't look back at Kuribo's post, but wnet from memory. My point was how something can be scummy for me, but not at all for others. (And no, I do not find this scummy in the least, which is why it doesn't seem so important to me who exactly said it.) Didn't mean to ignore you, the point wasn't about you or Ythill. I question why I got accused, not why you two didn't.
Because lately he's the scummier of the two. You see, we don't have to catch ALL of the scum on Day 1. It isn't like I said, "Yeah, let's lynch Pacman, Nureins is completely town." On the contrary, I'm going to be watching nureins like a hawk. But I don't like alot of pacman's reactions in the last several pages of my read. For the record, I don't like nureins' attempts to streamline the game to his liking in the time just before I joined.Cass wrote: I also fail to see what made you prefer Pacman suddenly, even over scum-extreme-please-lynch-him-now Nuriens.
I feel like alot of your defense in regards to pacman relies on the assumption that habit was a village idiot. As you well know, (especially with it being on this very page) newbishness is a null-tell because scum can be stupid, too. If you let people avoid lynch by way of "being the village idiot," you open the door for any number of terrible plays, and hurt the town in the process. Although I understand you defended pacman at great risk to yourself, Ythill, I think that alot of it makes assumptions that the reader shares your view of some of his actions. (ie, things that you don't find scummy, but some of the rest of us do)Ythill wrote: Please address my defense of pacman. If it's horribly wrong and you can show me how, maybe I'll vote with you, but only because I've got a good read on you.
Just for the record, I read L-3 (which isn't even close to a lynching majority) as a statement from someone who's getting worried.pacman281292 wrote:
I'm at L-3.
.......................................
And I might as well not to have one of them. I don't want to be trapped into a misread from my own...
Its the impression that I got from him, that in the last few pages, once pressure was being applied to him, he started to get worried. I can go back and look through this again if you'd like, but it'll have to wait a bit.Ythill wrote:Could you summarize this case briefly? Maybe I just lost your points in the rhetoric of your catch-up WOWs, but I don't recall a lot of evidence being raised.kuribo wrote:But I don't like alot of pacman's reactions in the last several pages of my read.
If everyone in this town played like this and just followed the leader, we'd be stretching Day 1 out to over 30 pages.nureins wrote:Far away from L-1 (if i remember well, it is L-3).Cass wrote: I've no idea qwhat the vote count is anymore, but I'm pretty sure no one's at L-1
The good news I guess is that your voting movement "reduces" the list to 3 since given my understanding of the game, Goat is going to move to Ythill.
For my voting patterns, I could move to pacman if I perceive that Ythill is in risk, (or more likely, as a final movement if it is clear nobody else can be lynched). I perceive him as a noisy signal, and therefore Ill not doubt to do it...
Jahudo wrote:I don't have a read on your actions but I'd like to know if your suspicion on nureins/Cass vs. Simenon can tell us anything new that hasn't been said or unsaid before.
Sounds to me like you're saying, "Look, I'll defend Ythill even though he suspected me, that totally means I can't possibly be scum!"nureins wrote:And if Ythill is seriously bandwagoned, I am going to write a similar defense for him, since I think he is MOST LIKELY townie. I find very natural and clarifying that this can be done precisely by me, the one to whom he directed his first aggressive attack
I didn't say you're assuming Ythill to be town, I'm more putting it out as a general warning that he comes across as pro-town even when he's scum. He's a good player on both sides of the field.nureins wrote:I havent lost any game because I havent finished any. But I could add, in an imaginary way:kuribo wrote:Oh, and I once lost a game because I assumed Ythill was town. Just so you know.
"I once lost a game because I didnt notice how two persons shared a false language".
Please, read my post in response to Sirdan. I havent assumed anything...
Doesn't make the case I posted against you any less valid.nureins wrote:kuribo wrote:
yes yes, I am completely sure that you were just sending a message to all humankind about your bad skills as a player, stating that you lost a game because you assumed something, and then it is good for us to know that you assume things which are not truth...
Also, I didn't say you said the case on you was scummy--- I said you're trying to minimalize it with your sarcastic post about how I make assumptions and lose games. (which isn't true either, because I'm developing into quite a scum hunter)nureins wrote: And I didnt consider your "case" on me scummy at all. Simply wrong.
No, I won't, because I don't like nurein's statements that I'm supporting sirdan, when I'm not.Ectomancer wrote:Quit bickering you two.
Uh, no, I took issue with the fact that nureins tried to paint me in favor of someone, when I clearly haven't been. Even further that he based it on an innocuous statement regarding my meta of Ythill. (That he is a dangerous player when scum)Ectomancer wrote:Both of them making certain assumptions (or assuming the other did), and then jumping on the other when they didn't examine the world through their assumption skewed view of the world. That's bickering.Simenon wrote:How do you define "bickering"?
I view the topic of their discussion as being very relevant.
Scum pacman could be scum sirdan's partner, though, and that could be why A) Scum pacman isn't voting, and B) scum sirdan is clinging to a lost cause instead of voting Scum pacman.Ythill wrote:People are voting, Cass. Except pacman which, considering the circumstances, is another suggestion of his alignment. With the deadline in place, scum pacman should already be voting for sirdan.
What I meant is that maybe that WANT us to think they're avoiding a wagon. IE, if one were town, and the other scum, maybe the scum knows that the other guy will come up town and he can later say, "But, I wasn't on the bandwagon!"kuribo wrote: Or, maybe Scum pacman doesn't want to touch Townie Sirdan's wagon with a ten foot pole because he knows the outcome. Or maybe Scum sirdan is doing likewise with Townie pacman's wagon.
Or, maybe the next part is, "Unless that's what they WANT us to think," and everything after that is WIFOM.
Yes, but what I was saying is that any criticism of sirdan not voting pacman should also spill onto pacman for not voting at all.nureins wrote:As far as I understand it, this is what ythill thinks that sirdan is doing by avoiding to vote pacman. I am lost because I thought this was not scummy at all...kuribo wrote:
What I meant is that maybe that WANT us to think they're avoiding a wagon. IE, if one were town, and the other scum, maybe the scum knows that the other guy will come up town and he can later say, "But, I wasn't on the bandwagon!"
In any case, pacman is not voting either, so this argument applies to both of them and then we have to lynch according to previous attitudes...you two are really making things even more complicated with such subtle analysis...
Define a mislynch. For me, a mislynch would be either a) someone not you or in my list of suspects) or b) a No-lynch. Since b) is worse than a), I'd be willing to do a) over b). But you, Ythill, are most likely scum, so obviously prefer to keep my vote on you.sirdanilot wrote: That's odd. Rather than cling to a lost cause, most townies would probably pick the scummiest of the top candidates at this juncture so as to best avoid a mislynch. Oh wait... that would be you...
Yes, let's lynch them without asking for a claim. BRILLIANT.nhat wrote: I can't let this blatant role fishing slide. On the off chance that both are pro-town power roles, then that's two-for-one for scum. One would be sufficient, but two is just being greedy.
FoS - Simenon
I know it's been a long time coming, but I have the next two days off and will have a very close look at the two suspects.
Even if it's true, your argument fails because:sirdanilot wrote:3 days before the deadline, and knowing that a claim will cause a lot of discussion, I think it would be better for me to claim as soon as possible.
Ythill, chapeau. You've successfully pressured a pro-town power role into claiming. Your strategy, which has had its successes when played by a town role, works very well as scum too. And if you are in fact town (probably not), then this proves that you should find a different play style, since when you are wrong (and you will be wrong again in the future, probably even more than that you'll be right) there's no way back and it hurts the town incredibly.
I'm the doctor.
Now, I'd be absolutely delighted when someone dares to counterclaim, since that gives us Ythill's partner.
You call that an attack?nureins wrote: Also Id never expect Kuribo to attack so hard to sirdan. So Im really lost. I promise to come with a more serious opinion in a day...
Okay, I see what you were saying, now. Sorry for the misconception.sirdanilot wrote:No, Ythill is not scum because he outed a power role. Ythill is scum (I am not going to repeat why again) and he outed a power role. Stop misunderstanding my posts.
nureins wrote:attack ?kuribo wrote:You call that an attack?nureins wrote: Also Id never expect Kuribo to attack so hard to sirdan. So Im really lost. I promise to come with a more serious opinion in a day...
I'll show you an attack tomorrow, scum.
Im not attackin you. I didnt consider the person you replaced scummy and I dont consider you either. Your attack on sirdan was strong. And if you attack him so strongly and you are "defending" him before the claim, this suggests to me that his doctor claim was a fake. So in my process of thoughts:
1. I read sirdan's words protecting himself to future claims - scummy
2. I start to accept he has an emotional rush - town (and doc)
3. The attack of someone who defends him hits me in the other direction - scummy...
As a consequence, Im totally lost. This is what i said...
Do you seriously think you're going to swing one of these wagons completely off track and onto Darox in just three days?Cass wrote:Yeah, after these last few pages, I find it less and less likely that Pacman is scum. I have some doubt about Sirdan, but he is low on my suspect list. ythill looks scummy too. But by far the scummiest, confirming all my earlier suspicions, is Darox.
Unvote
Vote: Darox
After his recent line of posting, I just can't believe he is town.
Of course it would, pacman is your partner.nureins wrote:With 12 players, I was assuming that this game most probably have (at least) one. But I take it. So Ill listen to most people and then if no clear conviction most probably ill unvote.Simenon wrote:Plenty of scum fake claim doctor in games that don't happen to have doctors.
Just saying.
Kuribo is not gonna be happy probably, as my vote would move to darox...
Sure they do, but:Simenon wrote:Plenty of scum fake claim doctor in games that don't happen to have doctors.
Just saying.
way to repeat my argument against him.sirdanilot wrote:Nureins, you unvote a not counterclaimed power role.FoS Nureins
Yes. Because we have 3 days to come to a consensus and it doesn't look like sirdan should be the play.nureins wrote:Mainly because I never faced such a situation. He might be claiming doctor to protect himself...I said "ready to unvote". After hearing some other opinions and especially after seeing none else counterclaims, Ill probably unvote. He is at L-3, do you really think my unvote some hours before or later is gonna affect the result ?kuribo wrote:Also, nureins, why the hesitation in the unvote? You're still voting a claimed doctor. For shame.
And personally, I think if the doctor ISN'T sirdan, and we DO have one, he should keep his mouth shut while the situation sorts out. Agree? Disagree?Simenon wrote:Fake claiming Doctor gives you two advantageskuribo wrote:Sure they do, but:Simenon wrote:Plenty of scum fake claim doctor in games that don't happen to have doctors.
Just saying.
A) in a closed setup, they run the risk that there IS a doctor
1. If there is no other doctor, you get to fakeclaim a valuable but unprovable role. That is an ideal situation for a scum.
2. If there is a doctor, that doctor dies the next night, barring roleblocking.It's certainly better than nothing. But we shouldn't put as much value on it as we would any other power role, for the reasons above.B) I know you didn't say we should lynch a claimed doctor, so don't read that into this statement, but: There's no point in lynching a claimed doc on day one unless there's a counter-claim. (which you well know) (I'm putting this statement here more for nureins who hasn't unvoted)
Where did I say that? Or did you see that in your role PM?nureins wrote: About my partner, I thought it was Cass. Ah, Cass also unvoted Pacman, I know your next stupid argument...
Where did I justify the FOS? In fact, if I recall, I called the entire post that contained it "Pointless."nureins wrote:haha, really ? so,kuribo wrote: And personally, I think if the doctor ISN'T sirdan, and we DO have one, he should keep his mouth shut while the situation sorts out. Agree? Disagree?
1. You think a FOS on me is justified because I didnt IMMEDIATELY unvoted a non counterclaimed doc.
2. You want no counterclaim to appear.
How can be a doc claim counterclaimed if you cheer up the counterclaimer not to counterclaim...I am laughing a lot now...do u want me to believe there is an urgency in your desires to unvote sirdan and suggest no counterclaim to be done ?
Im not understanding you at all, but all this sounds suspicious to me.
I mantain my view. Ill listen opinions and in one day or so if no counterclaim Ill probably unvote and vote darox (and in case a vote is needed to avoid a no-lynch, ill vote pacman)
nureins wrote:And now, I stop bickering. Come back in day 2 to attack me as much as you want.
Because scum don't wanna pile on pacman's bandwagon so they're quicklynching you.Darox wrote:I can dig the Darox wagon, everyone on board.
What are we lynching him for again?
My opinion on pacman hasn't changed.
Posting more when I'm not using a terribad mac.
Have I considered it? Of course, I considered it.Cass wrote:No. I think he is scum. I seriously don't see why you are so attached to your false dilemma. Or are you just attached to Darox? You do seem awfuly worried about losing him:kuribo wrote:Do you seriously think you're going to swing one of these wagons completely off track and onto Darox in just three days?Cass wrote:Yeah, after these last few pages, I find it less and less likely that Pacman is scum. I have some doubt about Sirdan, but he is low on my suspect list. ythill looks scummy too. But by far the scummiest, confirming all my earlier suspicions, is Darox.
Unvote
Vote: Darox
After his recent line of posting, I just can't believe he is town.Also, you're actively trying to shift focus onto Darox with a deadline three days away: knowing full well that 3 days is hardly any time at all for a brand new bandwagon to pick up.Have you considered we may be right about his alignment? In that case this 'brand new' (no it isn't) bandwagon would be a really good thing.Because scum don't wanna pile on pacman's bandwagon so they're quicklynching you.
I'm not going to vote Sirdan, for obvious reasons. I'm not going to vote Pacman, because I don't think he's scum. I'm trying to lynch scum, is that ok with you?
FoS: Kuribo
- Nuriens waiting for counterclaim is somewhat disturbing.
- Kuribo telling him to unvote unless counterclaim, but also asking for no counterclaim strikes me as dishonest.
And no, I'm not worried about losing him, I'm worried that the town is acting like a bunch of retards, lynching someone who--- at best--- is hard to get a read on right now, when there are far scummier people to go after.Cass wrote:No. I think he is scum. I seriously don't see why you are so attached to your false dilemma. Or are you just attached to Darox? You do seem awfuly worried about losing him:kuribo wrote:Do you seriously think you're going to swing one of these wagons completely off track and onto Darox in just three days?Cass wrote:Yeah, after these last few pages, I find it less and less likely that Pacman is scum. I have some doubt about Sirdan, but he is low on my suspect list. ythill looks scummy too. But by far the scummiest, confirming all my earlier suspicions, is Darox.
Unvote
Vote: Darox
After his recent line of posting, I just can't believe he is town.Also, you're actively trying to shift focus onto Darox with a deadline three days away: knowing full well that 3 days is hardly any time at all for a brand new bandwagon to pick up.Have you considered we may be right about his alignment? In that case this 'brand new' (no it isn't) bandwagon would be a really good thing.Because scum don't wanna pile on pacman's bandwagon so they're quicklynching you.
I'm not going to vote Sirdan, for obvious reasons. I'm not going to vote Pacman, because I don't think he's scum. I'm trying to lynch scum, is that ok with you?
FoS: Kuribo
- Nuriens waiting for counterclaim is somewhat disturbing.
- Kuribo telling him to unvote unless counterclaim, but also asking for no counterclaim strikes me as dishonest.
nureins wrote:@ecto: Sorry, forgot to mention that I died in newbie 636 one hour ago, and now you can see what I was there, and how I played there, which is essentially very similar to how Im playing here...(which says nothing good about my learning skills)
No, I formed that opinion through rereading the game, I didn't start off the reread saying, "nureins is scum."nureins wrote:It was not a excuse. It was an explanation for Ecto that I saved until the moment in which it was verifiable. Now he can go to this game, see my behavior there and compare it with what he called "buddying"...kuribo wrote: Not a good excuse for scummy behavior.
To Ythill's "case" on me, I answered many times.
You did a pbpa analysis, if you want to come with a case on me, please come...IMO, your case is flawed by reference dependence bias. The view that you conformed in the beginning of the game was very wrong and IMO, it contaminated your reading on me. But you are welcome to come back with your main points on me to discuss. You can avoid a post in which you add "ill do, scum", or you insert an icon, as we have been asked not to bicker around...so please postpone it and come with it...
Are you kidding me? The speed of Darox's wagon is more indicative of scum trying to jump on, and the stalling of pacman's wagon even less so.Ectomancer wrote:Kuribo, meet deadlinein two days. You have experience with this site. You know good and well that 2 days is barely enough time to get a lynch. You also know good and well that a no lynch is not an option for us. You came into this game ranting about the length of day 1, yet now that a deadline is approaching, you are trying to stall. Wassup?
On your comments:
#1 - You are ignoring the last 38 pages in a rather large way. This wagon didn't rise 'suddenly'.
#2 - Continuing to say that Pacman is far more scummy without elaborating on it at this point is completely useless. What are you waiting for? The deadline?
Personally, I am far more interested in the people on Pacman's wagon than Darox's. Clearly there is a stalled push on that wagon. It looks to me like a scum driven wagon that failed to convince the town of its validity. You'll notice that I am lynching one of those 4.
Also, that is ordinarily the case, but as you can see, everyone was perfectly willing in the last page to throw their votes on Darox instead of pacman. It reeks of people protecting pacman.Ectomancer wrote:Kuribo, meet deadlinein two days. You have experience with this site. You know good and well that 2 days is barely enough time to get a lynch.
I'm not going to ignore someone whose predecessor was scummy just because people think he looks more pro-town. It would be ridiculous to say that I should ignore habitang's scummy behavior. Further, I've said before why I don't like pacman's reactions.Jahudo wrote:Kuribo: What things have you seen from pacman that are exclusive to his own playing and not habitangs? Also my offer to debate habitang is still there. If you think I incorrectly labeled him as town after all that attacking him and defending against Ythill, then I'd like to debate that too.
But since YOU are the one pointing out YOUR OWN META, I am free to disregard it as manipulation if I so choose. (PS, I do)nureins wrote:This is a generalization.kuribo wrote:It's also shit to meta someone who is acutely aware of their meta enough to use it to try and excuse bad behavior.
"Of course, I look scummy, I always look scummy!" This carries no weight, because sometimes the person saying it is just scum.
I used meta to make precisions over two points.
1. "buddying". Ecto can read my first post in the game and conform a more valuable view of myself.
2. fake-claims. Cass can see how my last lynch was that of a fake-doc-claimer and understand better why I was careful.
Just that. Im not saying anything about how much scummy i look or not and Im not escaping any wagon, as there is none over me...
I addressed all the questions formulated over me. The fact that this newbie game ended up for me 1 hour ago allowed me to give a couple of precise examples of two moments of my play that, given how I see the reactions, seem quite crucial for experienced players...
So, basically, you're saying, "Well, we gotta have a lynch," (which is true), "So I may as well throw my vote on the top vote-getter?"Ectomancer wrote:One lynch at a time. It doesn't look to me as though town sentiment is on your side at this time, and unfortunately, that's all the time we have. Your extreme protest on this matter is noted. Let's continue on the not-yet-deadlined Day 2 shall we?kuribo wrote:Also, that is ordinarily the case, but as you can see, everyone was perfectly willing in the last page to throw their votes on Darox instead of pacman. It reeks of people protecting pacman.Ectomancer wrote:Kuribo, meet deadlinein two days. You have experience with this site. You know good and well that 2 days is barely enough time to get a lynch.
Pacman claimed vanilla townie at L-3.Ectomancer wrote:I went back and looked and I didn't see or remember a claim from either Darox or Pacman. Both of them need to claim ASAP, rolefishing be damned.
pacman281292 wrote:I will claim right now, given the fact that I am having problems with my internet...
Seriously. I'm typing this on an awful computer in an internet cafe.
I'm a townie.
sirdan's claim hadn't been counterclaimed. I don't know what to say... but let's say that I will believe him (during now; I will keep an eye on him...)
Darox really needs to post something here. Or a replacement.
Deadline in three days... well, if I'm unable to post again, then I willVote: Darox. I've stated my reasons before (I forgot where) Anyways, I will try to get some access, and I hope the problem is fixed soon