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[Infinity 324]

VOTE: luca

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Datisi is towny I think, not going to talk about why yet. I also want to TR the early energy from ico and anya, especially ico

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VOTE: llama

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Old guard is Mason

Plz disengage

I like voting scum though.

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Then maybe join me on umlaut?

If you want you can try to convince me

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Buddying datisi, saying Andre's is easy to push as scum here and questions him anyway, and his last post was a weird attempt to make it seem like I was spurting nonsense in pushing his wagon.

Like, idk. His iso really speaks for himself. Alternatively, why is llama scum? Not only is it not weird for him to make the push away from RVS the way he did, and forcing the game state to become serious, but also moving the game away from RVS is always a pro town move

On another note, will I see infinity getting his mojo back?

Where does he say that andres is easy to push as scum? The "I had the same thought" is something I use to TR people early pretty often, I don't think that's scummy

Llama is scum because the way he went about trying to push the game out of RVS felt overdone and performative

More active game probably means a more engaged infinity, although I'm still probably not at 100%

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Depends on how you did it, you also could've said essentially the same thing but worded differently and I would've found it towny. That's how I scumhunt

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So... im being too authoritarian? You really arent explaining anything that I can actually answer. Essentially you are just saying "because gut"

Get used to it :) My gut might change, but in the meantime you'll have to accept me scumreading you

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It's not playstyle it's gut

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It's not playstyle it's gut

Wait, llama, if you think I'm voting you for your playstyle, why isn't that AI? It's at least an objectively bad reason for voting

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AI = alignment-indicative, also fair enough

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It reads as disingenuous. How many reads do you think someone has to express to qualify as serious?

I'd expect probably more than 1? If you're trying to go super serious mode, then you can analyze every little ping from every post and usually come up with more than one read. I'm not convinced it's scummy (scum would probably be able to fake reads as well), but I see datisi's point

[Infinity 324]

why are you preemptively defending me?

Because I TR you, and I may be able to use this to sort umlaut

@umlaut Did llama's posting not imply he was going to try to get out of RVS as fast as possible?

VOTE: luca llama feels a bit better

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I guess I can answer llama's question to anya for myself, I don't TR everyone active but I don't SR anyone active, and luca's 1 post was awkward, which is slightly +scum

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Anya, was your early SR on datisi serious?

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Ok that changes things UNVOTE:

i think this always flips wolf here so i don't mind if someone hammers

@anya

I hope outworlder doesn't fall behind this game, I want to play with him. So I'm gonna stop posting for a bit.

[Infinity 324]

This game is very fast, also outworlder can sometimes fall behind in games but when he doesn't he's a helpful presence

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@llama The SR was based on the wording of luca's post, datisi's context explains why he used that wording, so the SR isn't valid

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Kind of think Rathe is town, actually, even though I disagree with the reasoning on Llama. I don't see scum posting 91 as a reason for a read, or really trying to start a wagon on a player like Llama at all. It's the kind of position that draws a bunch of scrutiny for no real gain if he's scum.

Did you think of that after you posted 95? If so, what was your first reaction to 90/91?

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Datisi is towny I think, not going to talk about why yet. I also want to TR the early energy from ico and anya, especially ico

oof

I don't mind being townread, and ur not wrong, but basing it on

energy?

These feel like a bunch of very easy townreads. Why just anya and me, and not the others who are being 'energetic'?

I did the same thing in jk9++, on page 3 it really doesn't matter how strong my read is I'm gonna say it to try to get the game moving

Yes I think energy early on makes someone 5% or so more likely to be town

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Luca's posting on page 10 is towny

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VOTE: samantha

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It got my attention because I thought it was a really bad 'case' but I couldn't make up my mind whether it was a scummy one.

umlaut town
this would be a silly thing to fake

Why would it be a silly thing to fake, he had to come up with some sort of explanation because I asked him about it

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when scum!umlaut 'changes his mind' on how he views rathes push he would have had an explanation already cooked up

I asked the question because it's not something I thought scum would be expected to ask. Sometimes as scum it takes me a bit to think about how I would react to something as town, and my original reaction to something is harder to justify. Whereas as town, I've seen the "strange but not scummy" push a lot so I automatically view it as towny, and I don't need to go back and think about it. I did think umlaut had a pretty good and quick response, and maybe I'm projecting, but it's something that pinged me at first. Lmk if something needs to be explained better

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I'm not commenting on it because I didn't get much out of it. It feels to me like ico believes the read, and I recently finished a game where town!ico made a similar push. However, I'm likely going to trust datisi's read on ico if my TR on datisi keeps up.

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This is a bad wagon and has all my SRs on it (umlaut, samantha, llama)

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Infinity where's your Umlaut and Samantha reads coming from? There's a few questions here and there but I don't recall anything from your ISO that really gave clear insight there.

Mostly PoE tbh, even at this point in the game I expect to have some amount of townpings on most townies

[Infinity 324]

This is a bad wagon and has all my SRs on it (umlaut, samantha, llama)

So does this trump your comment of being okay with an Icon vote if Dats is insistent over it?

We'll see, in the end I'll probably trust dats if he keeps being towny.

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@andres I don't know a lot of the players in this game that well, but outworld, you, and mom are the players that I've seen have strong town performances before.

PEdit: lol

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Curious where you get this idea from because speaking personally I feel my only good quality as town is being very hard to miselim as long as I put a modicum of effort into the game.

I mean, I mentioned everyone I've seen have a good town performance before. In among us mafia you argued for not claiming rooms and forced scum to NK you. I also remember that in a game I meta'd you for student council you seemed to have good analysis, but I didn't look at how accurate your reads were.

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: umlaut

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@zoomer In case you're annoyed that I'm not engaging you on umlaut, I don't really have much to say about it? I don't think the thinks you pointed out were confrontational enough to be towny, and generally I feel like most other players have towntold or at least given me a towny vibe

I'm also down to wagon llama, especially if mom SRs him

[Infinity 324]

nah im not that petty to be annoyed
so youre on the wagon to get content out of him?

No I think he's scummy because he hasn't towntold

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Depends on the player, for a lot of players it's just vibes, ico had what I thought was a particularly towny push, samantha is now showing a nonchalant reaction to their wagon which I see as towny

I don't like townreads that are "oh this person hasn't done anything scummy" because I find that scum can play like that pretty easily especially on d1

[Infinity 324]

I have a reason to townlean every player besides llama and umlaut

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Zoomer also feels towny to me

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How is that contradictory? If I townread 90% of the game I have to scumread the other 10% not everyone is town it turns out

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so you mean PoE? when do you null read people then?

When I don't have as many TRs?

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I'm not saying you have to have my read, I'm just trying to explain my position

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Outworlder feels towny to me so far and I'm not sure why he's a wagon

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He has 4 votes by my count

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Mini normal always has 3 scum

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ok but why aren't you voting outworlder

idk i want him to spew his scumbuddies harder before we yeet him or something i haven't decided yet

You mean yourself? Wow this plan is flawless

[Infinity 324]

you're flawless

Aww

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Datisi are you scum?

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Datisi are you scum?

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Yeah but you went for the easy answer :/

I just haven't seen some of the self-awareness I've seen from town!datisi, there was some early on but now you seem oddly relaxed for you

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I want mom to come back and convince everyone that llama is scum

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VOTE: llama

The reason why I still feel llama is scum is related, basically I feel like he's asking a bunch of questions without much apparent town intent behind them, and it feels like he's just looking active

[Infinity 324]

I want mom to come back and convince everyone that llama is scum

Were you already convinced when you wrote this that Llama was scum? If so then why wait for Mom to "come back and convince everyone" before you vote?

Because I'm bad at articulating my SRs, and it wasn't worth it to vanity vote when if I'm lucky I'll convince 1 other person to vote with me

[Infinity 324]

Llama do you have a read on me?

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Andres why do you TR me

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TR'ing Datisi for the same thing he SR Rathe for

What reason is this? The reads seem totally unrelated to me

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Starting a fight is pretty different from pushing someone as scum, and SRing someone for making that distinction is not great

That said, I do think you believe in your read, so there's that

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Idk, datisi and rathe approached the situation very differently, and it doesn't seem at all reasonable to read their play differently as a result

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Ok, I disagree, outworld isn't my top townread though so this argument isn't very productive

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Outworld can definitely be LHF, it just depends on the game

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UNVOTE:
VOTE: umlaut

Don't feel the best about this, but alright

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When I'm scum having trouble engaging in the game, I like to spend a lot of time talking about something I know is true, like why a townie is town

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That's E-1

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I could see that

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There’s something about them that’s a lot more care-free. They’re a paranoid wreck as Scum. So if you start picking up on some nervous energy, reconsider what I’m saying. All I’m seeing is a player eager to solve and push to find truth. So far. They can absolutely fool me I’m not infallible and it’s an early take. It would take a few more re-reads to solidify that read which I absolutely intend to do.

Ime datisi is nervous as both alignments but shows it more often as town, so keep that in mind I guess

Andres seems like the type of player who would be really good as scum, so the fact that I like his posting a lot so far is scaring me

[Infinity 324]

@andres Can you link a scum game for me, even if it's offsite

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I think Infinity expressed this too were they said that Datisi feels oddly relaxed

Yeah, from what I know about datisi it's scum-indicative though. I don't have a ton of meta on him though

[Infinity 324]

I think Infinity expressed this too were they said that Datisi feels oddly relaxed

Yeah, from what I know about datisi it's scum-indicative though. I don't have a ton of meta on him though

If you read the Scum PT or their Notes from the most recent Scum game they completed, I think you’ll come out with a different conclusion, but again they could be manipulating meta that they know I would be looking for.

Yeah, I've read scum!datisi's notes before, I guess what I'm saying is that he doesn't tend to show his nervousness in thread as scum, despite feeling nervous, whereas he often tends to show nervousness in thread as town

[Infinity 324]

It makes sense not to hammer yet, but I think umlaut should claim now just in case we want to move somewhere else based on the claim.

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lucaaaa nooooo you're supposed to play along

YOU KNEW?

why am i Always the one to fall for that bullshit smh

Dw I fell for it too

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Ico do you have a history of correctly reading datisi?

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I'm putting you as a townlean for now, later on in the game I may investigate in more depth

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Ico's pushes feel very genuine to me tbh. Here's where I'm at atm

{luca, ico}
{andres, samantha, ower}
{zoomer, rathe, mom} <-- I have reasons to think these are town, but I'm not confident
{datisi, umlaut}
{llama}

[Infinity 324]

Infinity I’ll admit - your reads feel somewhat static. I think you’ve had the same 2 or 3 players as Scum most of D1, and have softly defended OutWorldER without sticking your head out much (158, 571). Can you elaborate a bit more on what you make of Umlaut’s last set of posts? Do you think Scum is likely to come back after being pushed to the brink and vote outside of the leading wagons (and particularly a player you seem to TR)?

I agree it's +town for umlaut, but it's not enough to take him into the next tier, especially because I feel like there's momentum to start new wagons at this point in time. There are only 3 votes on ower

[Infinity 324]

infinity, why is outworld so high?

He could be in a lower tier, but it's purely a gut read

[Infinity 324]

I was going over the votes on my wagon and I'm confused about Infinity in particular, because of posts like

UNVOTE:
VOTE: umlaut

Don't feel the best about this, but alright

that imply they aren't really sure about me, and earlier asking to be talked into voting me, but then consistently listing me as a top scumread to the point of basing their opinion of their Ico wagon on the fact I'm on it.

Infinity, when did I go from "I guess I could vote him if that's what we're doing" to a serious suspect in your estimation?

I still don't love this wagon, and I still don't have anything in particular I can point to that you did that was scummy, I just townread other people more. My opinion hasn't changed

Also, I missed anya in my tier list, she should be at null, which is the same as datisi and umlaut.

[Infinity 324]

confirmed town
Iconeum

I’m also fascinated by this. I have a lot of conflicting thoughts about Iconeum. They seemed to get overly upset about what they perceived to be wrong descriptions of their play or pushes against them, and I don’t know what that means (but just felt a bit over the top for Scum). I’ve seen them react aggressively before and succumb to OMGUS as Town (we did a bit of that dance when we first played together towards the beginning of that game), except Datisi pinned them down correctly and hard defended them. But here, I’m not really getting warm and fuzzy feelings about them. Like some of the criticism from Umlaut in 366 rings true to me. They almost seemed to eager to get into a fight with me and tunnel, and I like to think Town are a little more cautious than that. But again, I know Iconeum doesn’t really play that way, so that’s where the mixed feelings is coming from.

This seems like a reason to TR ico. Like, you know he's played like this as town, and his play seems a bit too aggressive to come from scum, so for me that's reason to TR him. Can you explain more why you disagree? If you didn't know anything about ico's play, how would you be reading him here?

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Yeah no that’s kind of where I’m landing. I’m Town though, so they’re aggressive push against me does give me bad vibes, even if for all the other reasons I’ve stated they seem more Town than not.

Yeah that's fine, I might have to do that meta review sooner though, because your posts keep pinging me. It feels like you're trying to position yourself to have influence in the game while keeping your options open. Not that there isn't town motivation in how you're playing, but it's scaring me.

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The other thing is, what changed in the day or two since you were defending datisi? I understand you weren't super sure on the read, but datisi hasn't really done much since then.

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It feels like you're trying to position yourself to have influence in the game while keeping your options open.

I don’t think I can help myself. I always go for a leading Town position. I don’t think you’ll ever find a game from me where I sat in the background and did very little unless I was either spectacularly demotivated which... I can’t recall being too often.

I don’t agree with your interpretation of my play but it’s your own view so it is what it is.

Idk, I don't remember you playing particularly like a town leader in bending, at least not until later in the game.

[Infinity 324]

It got my attention because I thought it was a really bad 'case' but I couldn't make up my mind whether it was a scummy one.

umlaut town
this would be a silly thing to fake

did anyone else notice this really towny post from zoomer earlier?

like seriously sometimes when i'm feeling down i just go read zoomer's iso to remind myself there's good in the world

never fails to brighten my day

Stop townposting, I have too many TRs already

[Infinity 324]

(and there’s something to be said about them constantly saying they’re “afraid” of me)

what do you want to say about this?

Infinity keeps wanting to call me Town but seems to always hedge on it. Almost hoping that if I get voted, they’ll join and say that they’re afraid of my Scum game or something. I’m finding the positioning around my slot to be Scummy if that makes sense.

If you're meta clearly shows you're town here, I'm gonna realize that when I meta you, meaning I don't really have an out to push you later on.

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I've talked to Gypyx and we've decided to freeze the Night 24 hours before deadline, should a replacement not have been found by then.

I assume this was edited into the post

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: zoomer I'd prefer datisi to this but ok

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If someone is on between 10 am and 11 pm est and wants to talk I'm down, everyone seems to post when I'm asleep

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It’s farcical that Momrangal’s vote is in play while we’re waiting on a replacement that might not arrive before deadline

Surely for the integrity of the game the replacement has to arrive before the deadline? I thought that was standard practice anyway

I've talked to Gypyx and we've decided to freeze the Night 24 hours before deadline, should a replacement not have been found by then.

I assume this was edited into the post

[Infinity 324]

I've made it pretty clear that I don't TR zoomer particularly strongly and don't TR you at all

PEdit: oh idk why they would pause the night deadline and not the day deadline though?

[Infinity 324]

Imo there should be at least a day in the deadline whenever someone replaces in

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Umlaut has been kinda towny recently, and I don't think he's particularly viable

If another wagon pops up I'll have to make a decision, but right now doesn't seem like the time to have my vote doing nothing on, like, you

[Infinity 324]

Thanks foxbird, hope you're doing ok

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You have 2 votes on you atm, one of which is from the replacement slot

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Actually, we have a mafia problem in our village, and we have to eliminate someone! Your input on who you think is the most suspicious would be helpful

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Replacing out because you don't have WIM is fine, the reason we have the rule is because it can be pretty easy to tell someone's alignment from the replace out discussion since they don't care about their wincon anymore

[Infinity 324]

UNVOTE:

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: datisi

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I got my towncred from anya for unvoting, now it's time to be survivalistic again

[Infinity 324]

People I will vote today in order: llama, datisi, anya, umlaut, s_s, rathe

We need to pick one. Besides me.

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I mean, we need to get an elim, and me being elimmed isn't protown, so I should vote here regardless of alignment

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I haven't read but I'm impressed by people's ability to vote scum

Intent to hammer

[Infinity 324]

Oh luca unvoted

VOTE: llama

I want him to claim when he gets online, not a lot of time in the deadline

[Infinity 324]

This Llama issue is more pressing atm

Infinity why are you so sure Llama is scum?

Everyone else is towny, he writes a lot of words but doesn't seem to believe any of them. Also he has a scar avatar so he's definitely scum.

[Infinity 324]

I don’t like how you just vote him without even reviewing the wagon

We’re not *that* rushed for time and he said he won’t be online for a while anyway

It's my dream wagon, I honestly don't really care who's on the wagon or how fast it was

[Infinity 324]

Remember that tell about how a player is afraid to create enemies by TR’ing a lot of players? How is this not that? Haha this is almost hard to believe.

Logically it makes sense but it's missing emotion/passion/towny soul

[Infinity 324]

How can anyone even think this is remotely consistent? This is literally just convenient positioning.

Anya is still not a townread, umlaut I already said has been a bit townier, datisi has I think been townier on the past couple pages but I'm not sure on that. This argument is silly, if I had 3 null reads 1 SR and 7 townreads, "everyone else is towny" is still a reasonable exaggeration to make. First you criticize me for having static reads and now this shit?

[Infinity 324]

I look at the wagon a bit more closely, and move everyone else down

D2 is when some scum start to lose motivation so I'd pay attention to how people play going forward as well

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i believe in my heart that Dats Luca Ico are all town but expect too much of each other so when one of them shows up sick to work the others think they've turned into a mass murderer

Hmm, I like this take

and meanwhile Infinity is venting up down left right centre but deflects with door sabotages

You were doing so well...

[Infinity 324]

i am growingly getting concerned that infinity is not posting

I was driving, what do you want

[Infinity 324]

idk it showed you online and it's curious if you disappear right after getting 4 votes you feel

pedit: @infinity

I wouldn't lie about RL

[Infinity 324]

and like I said a while ago, when I read outworlder's other games he said stuff that contradicted what he said here; maybe the passage of time changed him somewhat as a person, but I doubt it

Can you give examples/link

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Idk how to townspew but here goes

The way I paly mafia is very gut based, which makes it frustrating when people need me to explain myself, either to towntell or to push through an elim, but that's what's happening rn

Llama's ISO feels fake because he'll take something that makes sense and push it further that his reasoning actually warrants. He was arguing for pages that outworld was town because...he has a lot of TRs? It makes sense for a townlean or something but it's not that hard to maneuver around having too many TRs by using that as an excuse to SR people. Which yeah, you could say that's what I'm doing as scum here, but meh

If he really believed that commiting to having lots of TRs is really town indicative, why isn't he applying that logic to SR people like rathe or datisi who aren't committing to much. Hell even me, I have a lot of TRs but I have voted zoomer before who I said I TRed and generally I could make excuses for voting some of the people I TR. Llama thinks I've locked myself in but if you look at my reads I haven't really? Idk

[Infinity 324]

The samantha vote in 1592 is more of pushing his reads further than they feel like they should go, it's like the "hey look TMI" thing but really it's unlikely from sam's POV that town would hammer without a claim, so it makes sense they would assume a townflip there. And like, it's something that town says all the time to threaten scum into not hammering. And if samantha had worded it a bit differently it wouldn't be scummy at all? Idk

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This is kinda hypocritical but there are wording things in 1592 that make it feel fabricated too. "This bothers me. This really bothers me because of the implications of it all." It feels like inflating/strengthening the read when you don't have enough to go on

[Infinity 324]

I just got really pinged by Infinity’s attitude upon entering the thread and seeing the Llama wagon

I think the natural reaction there as Town is to assess the wagon, not just be like ‘wow everyone is good at voting scum’

I’m reasonably happy with my vote

Ok off to bed now

I don't get this at all, would you not feel the same way if literally the entire day you've been trying to push someone as scum, you go to sleep, and you wake up seeing they're the biggest wagon? I felt ambivalent about literally any other wagon, at least a little bit. I still haven't read up to analyze the wagon but I don't feel like I need to. Wagon speed at this point shouldn't bother anyone because we NEED a fast wagon to get an elim

[Infinity 324]

Someone talk to me besides andres who is clearly not engaging me in good faith

It's fine if it's a gut read I get it but there's nothing logical I can engage there really. You're criticizing me for changing reads and also having my reads stay the same

[Infinity 324]

It feels like inflating/strengthening the read when you don't have enough to go on

This is... not really a scum characteristic?

I think if you're trying to present something as stronger than it is, that's pretty scummy. There are ways town does this which are usually more self aware

[Infinity 324]

what really bothers me is the first quote about understanding that wagons are good early game, yet has a problem with them in this game (yes he said it as mafia, but I doubt he doesn't actually believe it) (below bolded by me)

I think it was rathe's push/justification in particular that bothered him rather than ~trying to start a wagon~ in general, I don't think you have to like every early push if you like early wagons overall

[Infinity 324]

There are ways town does this which are usually more self aware

So you mean like "I know I'm exaggerating, and I don't care"? Very few people will admit to that.

Normally it's "this isn't that strong but it's worth putting out there anyway"

If they really do believe it's strong, it usually doesn't feel like they're inflating it, it's more natural idk how to explain it

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I don't agree because 1. It's a threat, not really to be taken at face value 2. Quickhammering is scummy enough that maybe sam assumes that only suck would do it, making ower town

Even if you think it's solid reasoning, it feels like it *was* inflated you know what I mean? Knowing your reasoning is wrong biases you and all that

PEdit: @s_s

[Infinity 324]

I'll be back and finish reading up in an hour

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I don't agree because 1. It's a threat, not really to be taken at face value 2. Quickhammering is scummy enough that maybe sam assumes that only suck would do it, making ower town

Sure, but if Llama failed to acknowledge these, that just means he misinterpreted the post.

So I mean maybe he misinterpreted it on purpose to try to push through a samantha execution but it seems like it was pretty late in the day to expect a falsehood-driven wagon that currently has zero support to go through over five wagons with 2+ members.

I don't even think he was necessarily planning on making the wagon go through, but it made llama look like he was doing something. It looks a lot more like what scum would come up with to seem believable than a real read

[Infinity 324]

I don't even think he was necessarily planning on making the wagon go through, but it made llama look like he was doing something.

What exactly do you think he wanted to look like he was doing? Because it sure didn't look practical, it's probably gonna make more enemies than friends, it's gonna annoy people looking to consolidate, and it also wouldn't really advance any scum agenda which he could advance by pushing a townie with a wagon.

Being active, pushing someone, etc. Note that samantha was wagoner earlier in the game as well so support could've been there. But I think people look at pushes like that and read them as town a decent amount

[Infinity 324]

Being active, pushing someone, etc. Note that samantha was wagoner earlier in the game as well so support could've been there. But I think people look at pushes like that and read them as town a decent amount

I guess?

But pushing something based on a known falsehood that you might get called out on, when it's a few days till deadline and you might get accused of trying to split the vote, it doesn't really strike me as a situation that's ripe for getting some towncred.

I'm not sure I want to go over this again, but I don't think it's as objectively false as you seem to? Scum!llama definitely could've believed what he was saying too, and just not have thought of the town perspective since he wasn't trying to.

[Infinity 324]

Datisi's engagement with luca feels towny tbh

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It seems very odd to suggest that scum-Llama who KNOWS samantha is town would have an even harder time seeing the town perspective behind her post. Wouldn't you think that if he's scum and she's town he would be able to tell why she said this apparently scum-indicative thing?

Maybe? Tbh I think the most likely S->T scenario might be that llama thinks sam's post is objectively scummy but acted more confident in his push than he should've

[Infinity 324]

koto do you wanna vote infinity

Did my townspew not work

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Page 79

[Infinity 324]

Ok here's more random thoughts

Idk what to think about rathe. I felt towny on him earlier because he didn't seem afraid to look bad and I understood his playstyle from a town pov, but he might just be scum trying to emulate town!him and unaware how he comes off? Like maybe I'm biased because I think similarly to him

Samantha is a great example of being town without trying to look it, their wagon went away when they didn't necessarily do anything to make their wagon go away, it just happened naturally because they were being towny

[Infinity 324]

Yeah I get it, it does make my reasoning for saying llama is scum based on that post weaker

[Infinity 324]

aaaa does llama do that as scum

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: rathe

[Infinity 324]

At least if he's town he can't be mislimmed later

Whereas I'm going to be obviously town with my impressive townspewing

[Infinity 324]

Datisi if you're not still around we can talk about this tomorrow, but I feel like you haven't really been engaging me this game. Like when explained why I was away for a bit and that I wouldn't really lie about RL, you didn't respond, and you also didn't respond to my townspew even after I specifically asked you about it. I wanna know why

[Infinity 324]

E-2 by my count

Luca, outworld, me, llama, s_s

[Infinity 324]

Sigh, not really interested

[Infinity 324]

Me too, me too

[Infinity 324]

Llama is right, rathe is a night owl

[Infinity 324]

I'll be around for 2 hours to vote outworld if necessary

[Infinity 324]

Yes

[Infinity 324]

Lmao

PEdit: vt enabler claim lmao

Why would scum claim that? Idk I'm lost

[Infinity 324]

Datisi should I TR you for going through this whole thing? I want to

[Infinity 324]

That was hammer by my count but w/e

VOTE: umlaut

[Infinity 324]

God I would hate myself so much if so

[Infinity 324]

@llama sam was on outworlder

Me, datisi, umlaut, you, s_s, sam, outworld is 7

[Infinity 324]

Datisi should I TR you for going through this whole thing? I want to

[Infinity 324]

I still think sam is town but idk their playstyle so I really don't know

[Infinity 324]

Meh I kinda regret not voting llama but I still think it was towny to not wanna vote me

[Infinity 324]

{luca}
{sam, andres, s_s}
{datisi, ower, umlaut, ico}
{anya, llama}
{koto}

My gut is saying koto is scum now idk why

[Infinity 324]

Ok

[Infinity 324]

s_s's logic made sense, and you agreed that he had a point

samantha is just town for reasons I poorly explained earlier

Why is it a scumtell to push someone who ends up being a PR when there was no indication that rathe was a PR

[Infinity 324]

Who *wanted* koto to be modkilled

[Infinity 324]

That wasn't even random because it was static. Though, attempting to break the rules should probably be punished just as harshly?

This is begging for a Mod Kill.

You don't understand how s_s talks

Tbh I'm kinda done with you, you've been pushing me for awful reasons all day phase

[Infinity 324]

Andres, rathe didn't point out a crumb and I am town so scum literally had no way of knowing that a rathe elim would benefit them more than me.

[Infinity 324]

Andres, rathe didn't point out a crumb and I am town so scum literally had no way of knowing that a rathe elim would benefit them more than me.

In what time did you want Rathe to point out a crumb? They claimed and got hammered in about 5 minutes. This makes no sense at all.

Normally you point out a crumb right away, he'd probably at least say there was a crumb and to ask people to wait if there was one, I'm pretty confident if rathe crumbed he forgot about it (unlikely)

[Infinity 324]

Andres is implying (I think) that scum saw a rathe crumb and wanted to wagon him because of it, and fmpov that makes 0 sense because I'm the one that started the wagon. If you want to call me scum who did that, fine. But fmpov it's not something worth considering

[Infinity 324]

W/e maybe I'm missing something and being an idiot but scum don't have particular motivation to redirect a wagon from town of unknown role to another townie of unknown role

[Infinity 324]

After the incredibly suspicious wagon appears on Rathe, and they claim Enabler, the incentive to hammer it while there’s still confusion as Scum is enormous. Even more so if you’re Partner was under tremendous stress previously. That could be Llama, or it could be Infinity. If they’re both Town, at that late stage, the odds that Scum want to cause a major wagon shift are minuscule. I don’t understand why you would think that’s a remotely likely universe.

Because the people. Who wanted the wagon shift. Are. Not. Scum.

If you're calling me scum, fine. I don't give a shit. But if you're calling me an idiot for TRing the people who tried to save me, pushing the wagon onto rathe, fmpov knowing I'm town, that's a bullshit argument.

[Infinity 324]

Sorry for getting heated

[Infinity 324]

Andres hopefully we'll play a game together that's not a total shitshow at one point

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: s_s

If people want to SR me for the andres kill, I think that's reasonable, I don't see why scum would want to kill him if he bottom 3 SRs are town, and I'm still not seeing samantha as scum

Even if sam is scum, they probably are going to get pushed by a bunch of other people today, so killing andres isn't that much of a priority

It's possible scum just wanted to kill someone who was a town leader and wasn't getting limmed, but leading the town by being aggressively wrong seems like it benefits scum

[Infinity 324]

Datisi if I'm town do you think scum tried to save their buddy llama or was scum just watching a bunch of town wagons pop up and disappear

[Infinity 324]

it's not about andres scumreading infinity and then dying, it's about infinity bringing up theories why andres was killed completely unprompted

Llama bringing up the night killing thing made me think about NKs quite a bit during twilight and the night phase

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: llama I changed my mind. S_s is a likely partner, but scum motivation is to kill andres so that they can push me and everyone forgets about the "infinity or llama is scum" thing

[Infinity 324]

Luca is obvtown. Also I'm pretty confident datisi is town here too

[Infinity 324]

Luca is obvtown. Also I'm pretty confident datisi is town here too

what is the implication of the 3 of us all being town then

Not sure, why

[Infinity 324]

That said I don't know where the fuck Infinity's SR onto S_S came from.

I told you where it came from, I don't believe scum ever kills andres when his bottom 3 reads are town, the WIFOM benefit isn't enough.

He was lean town before and now he's lean scum.

[Infinity 324]

Not sure, why

cause we have 11 alive and if you can remove 4 that leaves only 7, which you can whittle down even more with what people posted yesterday

My scumpool is {llama, s_s, koto, umlaut, anya} atm

[Infinity 324]

That wasn't intended to be in order, but it was

[Infinity 324]

You guys are weird. A stranger comes to town, you ask him to help you solve mafia problem, give him a vote. Then you absolutely ignore my inputs and accuse me of being mafia.

Thanks for your help, but part of living in this town is accepting that someone might (wrongly) accuse you of being mafia, the problem is pretty bad.

[Infinity 324]

the shitwagon mostly

Why wouldn't scum stay off the wagon, especially if there's no danger of a scum being executed instead?

If they didn't, it's probably because scum was in danger of being executed instead

[Infinity 324]

Luca and datisi can y'all stop lol

[Infinity 324]

Outworld, if I'm town, llama is very likely scum for the same reason s_s is--scum probably doesn't kill andres aggressively pushing a wrong narrative of "infinity or llama is scum". That's why I'm voting llama now, if you agree with my s_s logic you should review llama

[Infinity 324]

Sam, you don't have to agree with me, but all 3 scum can be on a wagon and probably are more often than random if it's a town elim

[Infinity 324]

Sam, you don't have to agree with me, but all 3 scum can be on a wagon and probably are more often than random if it's a town elim

well I'm suggesting we go on-wagon anyway

wanna join me/anya? if umlaut is mafia that reflects badly on llama anyway

I don't think anya's vote is serious, but I'd be ok with an umlaut wagon

[Infinity 324]

Sam, you don't have to agree with me, but all 3 scum can be on a wagon and probably are more often than random if it's a town elim

I disagree with this

Ehh fine, my main thing is that "x was off the wagon and other people off wagon are town" is not a reason to SR x

[Infinity 324]

I'm sort of curious what led you to meta me as town, my meta seems like it would be pretty hard to derive patterns from, and I don't have a ton of recent scumgames

[Infinity 324]

Llama why do you think andres was killed?

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I mean dats and luca are independently my strongest TRs so I'm not really gonna argue with you, even though I would probably weight it less heavily than you.

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: umlaut w/e llama pocketed me

[Infinity 324]

can we make it happen my guys

probably not
VOTE: llamafluff

i told u iconeum

infinity probably wont go through either

He shall be remembered as '

Rathe the Wise

'

Lol I thought about this too

[Infinity 324]

I'm sort of curious what led you to meta me as town, my meta seems like it would be pretty hard to derive patterns from, and I don't have a ton of recent scumgames

@samantha, so you don't miss it

[Infinity 324]

She seems less, focused?, is the word I want to say, and I'm not really able to describe why that's the word that comes to mind.

You're right, it has to do with my spottier motivation to play mafia recently

In jk9++ for example I was less focused than I am here

[Infinity 324]

Imo the hammer is a little bit less bad than you're making it out to be, luca, because we really just needed an elim, there was a nonzero chance that we would try to get the votes for outworld and not succeed and end the day in a no elim

It was bad, to be clear, but still

[Infinity 324]

Didn't check the online list, but 7 people were not posting at once

[Infinity 324]

I don't think samantha is scum

[Infinity 324]

The argument of "this player is scum or bad town" almost always results in flipped townies. Mafia is not a game about limming bad town and scum, it's about limming scum.

[Infinity 324]

Didn't check the online list, but 7 people were not posting at once

ok but with what i think were still hours on the clock, your first thought is insta hammer vs checking to see if another lim is viable? If ur town?

No but I am saying my first reaction when I saw the hammer was relief

Tbf I didn’t think of the loyal mailman thing but

[Infinity 324]

If enabler was truly a scum claim then there would be no need to quickhammer, as he would be getting limmed regardless once she pointed that out

I was just coming to this same conclusion, and I think it makes samantha scum.

Forgot to mention, I don’t think s_s makes pushes like this as scum.

[Infinity 324]

Outworlder, can you elaborate on your take on my llama read a bit more? “He’s obvtown but infinity’s SR there is reasonable” doesn’t mesh super well for me. And like, I talked about a bunch of aspects of llama’s play I thought were scummy, like how he asked a bunch of questions that didn’t seem to lead anywhere, and how I thought him defending you looked like how scum defend a townie because I thought he was spending a disproportionate amount of time on it. We seem to have totally opposite views of llama’s ISO. I could see you saying that you disagree with my take but it’s not scummy, but it’s a bit odd to call my SR reasonable fypov. Or was it just that one point you thought could make sense?

[Infinity 324]

Would you guys rather brutally execute Iconeum or Datisi?

Ico, but reluctantly.

[Infinity 324]

Dats is obviously town, and now that I say it I forget why. Part of it had to do with his frustration with luca for not TRing him

[Infinity 324]

It’s not weak, I think it would be very difficult to fake

You’re probably my 3rd strongest TR after luca and datisi

[Infinity 324]

...because I think you’re town too?

PEdit: @ico

@dats Normally these things become clear later idk

[Infinity 324]

Datisi, you v luca is like skitter v mena in PyP, two players with history together and respect for each other’s scum games go on about how they’re paranoid of each other

It’s part of why my TR on both of you is so strong, it’s the whole feel of that thing

[Infinity 324]

I don’t really have an explanation for TRing outworlder and I’m getting less sure about the read. I may TR outworlder’s tone naturally, should probably meta him

PEdit: Ico I don’t actually care, I don’t think it says much about koto’s alignment because neither of you are getting limmed today no matter what

[Infinity 324]

{dats, luca}
{ico}
{samantha, s_s}
{koto, outworlder, anya}
{llama, umlaut}

Going to sleep

[Infinity 324]

if infinity is town... i'd assume multiple scum on her wagon.

Walk me through this? I'm not sure why scum wouldn't necessarily switch from llama to rathe for example. But that would make llama town. Sigh

[Infinity 324]

Are we voting llama now? Definitely don't get what scum were doing EoD if llama is scum, idk

But if llama is town, it's like. We really shouldn't be assuming that scum will/won't do anything in particular with their votes because any result is fine for them

Maybe they thought rathe was not so likely to go through, maybe they thought town!them would vote rathe, maybe it fit with their reads

[Infinity 324]

i'll rephrase that

infinity, if you have llama as your top scumread here

why did you derail his wagon at EoD 1?

The reasoning at the time is that I don't think scum!llama tries to get a new wagon going rather than just voting me and saying it's because he has to

Now it's because my wagon was towny, and scum would be voting the cw

PEdit: anya why weren't scum voting me? Or if they were who was it besides umlaut

[Infinity 324]

Tbf maybe I'm wrong on 1 in the townbloc and the other is umlaut, or maybe 1 scum had a TR on me/was going to hammer me

I think the first thing to do is flip umlaut here though, and maybe if he flips scum we can look at llama, not the other way around

[Infinity 324]

Meh I still much prefer umlaut

I'll claim with intent

[Infinity 324]

Oh you should've said so! I'm in

[Infinity 324]

I'm a rogue but I have some cleric powers too

[Infinity 324]

The other thing too is that rathe was a much easier wagon to justify being on than me. Especially if scum had already voiced TRs on me it's not easy or at all necessary to jump on me as opposed to llama or rathe