Mini Normal 2205: RotITGBSMoD [game over!]

[clidd]

I haven't looked in depth, but Asteria has a generic iso at first glance and seems like a coinflip in the sense of alignment.

[clidd]

Her "that person is scumreading me but their reasoning is towny, so they're town with a wrong read" is not common to be projected from a scum mentality.

Not saying that she is towny by this specific point, but scum!she would probably feel the need to forge a false doubt about the accuser's alignment (to convey the idea that she is coming from an uninformed perspective).

pedit: Hallo.

[clidd]

Clidd is probably the motivation I need to get back into this game. So that's a good replace.

welcome clidd

It's a hemorrhagic pleasure to see you both, btw.

[clidd]

Hum.

Actually, UNVOTE: Asteria

For now.

[clidd]

My field of vision is temporarily limited by mobile, so I would appreciate it if the day didn't reach an elimination in the next 48 hours.

pedit: Thanks.

pedit²: That's a better vote.

[clidd]

Weird post, Asteria.

Scum would have more reasons not to push you after a claim than the other way around.

[clidd]

Weird post, Asteria.

Scum would have more reasons not to push you after a claim than the other way around.

I'm saying if I'm right on osuka being scum then this is what happened

But that's forcing an unsatisfactory explanation to fit a particular theory of yours and not an impartial thought about Asuka.

[clidd]

Correction: Osuka*

[clidd]

Which means that you are starting from the conclusion that Osuka is scum and how his actions would be explained from that instead of evaluating if it really makes sense for scum!Osuka to push a PR.

pedit: Probably not, idk.

[clidd]

im at work i cant catch up but i think scum healed me and vfp is scum also healed which means 2 docs

[clidd]

I'll do a more expressive catch up when I have time (or get home).

[clidd]

Ok, I finished my catch up.

It wasn't exactly page-by-page, but individual-iso (including predecessors) and this is the slot most likely to be scum imo:

VOTE: T3

I don't intend to go into details, but Haschel's behavior before the substitution was very apathetic in the sense of wim and uncharacteristic with the competence that I imagine town!Haschel has. With the entry of T3 things have not changed much, considering the shallow participation/reasoning, but I still see Haschel as scummy independent of him.

[clidd]

@Andante

The thing with T3 is that he probably has the same playstyle in both alignments, so I don't know if he's going to townspew here (unless a conscious effort takes place on his part).

So it would be interesting at least to have a threat (wagon) on the slot to make him feel the need to play. If he's town, we should have no trouble identifying that.

[clidd]

@Lemons

If there is scum between them, it's probably Dk. GC losing motivation and using logic excessively to criticize/reject accusations is something that I have seen from scum!GC in a past game, although it also happened with town!GC. But, again, comparatively speaking, Dk + GC are less towny than Asteria.

[clidd]

Regarding Dk(in isolation), nothing they have done so far is outside their town/scum range.

[clidd]

It's like this:

GC=Scummy
Dk=Null
Asteria=Towny

[clidd]

No, but if there has to be scum between the two that Lemon mentioned, Dk is the likely choice by PoE.

[clidd]

Unless I'm wrong about Asteria, but that's my "gun to head" speculation.

[clidd]

But I still prefer T3. A scumread by play is more valid to me than a mech-spec elim.

pedit: That's true.

[clidd]

E-2

[clidd]

Ok, and what are your reads?

[clidd]

Hard town: clidd, Lemons, Koba, Andante, VFP, Asteria
Everyone else is basically in my PoE and I'm not sure about.

I mean, you're not giving any reasons here (which is what we want from you).

The more you describe your line of thought, the easier it will be to identify your alignment.

[clidd]

And your fos on Pooky doesn't make sense.

[clidd]

Hello. I have read most of the game. My current reads are My current solve would be GrandpaMo and Aahi. This is for a few reasons:
Most of the pushes have come from GrandpaMo. Meanwhile, Aahi is popping into the thread going with the same tunnel. This is very scummy, as no actual reasons have been given. However, everyone is ignoring this. No one can explain why, which gives even more reason for Aahi scum. GrandpaMo has been pushing, hard pushing on my townreads. There have been a lot of bad votes against WhemeStar and JV. GrandpaMo has hard pushed both of those eliminations. When WhemeStar then does an extremely towny reaction to getting fakehammered by Irish, GrandpaMo says: don't worry, still vote WhemeStar, get Irish tomorrow. Almost if you know they are both town. General Irish play here pings me asvery incompetent town, or told to do the vote in thescumchat. So, I see two possible scumteams.
Mo/Aahi
or someone/Irish.
GrandpaMo play also feels like mafia.gg scumplay. Usually tere is one scum controlling the entire game, pushing random people saying "don't worry vote this tomorroe"
VOTE: GrandpaMo

Town!you should have no problem in expressing yourself, as the example above (your past towngame) ^

[clidd]

Sorry, I don't get it.

[clidd]

Andante is towny for the circumsrances under which she claimed.

Which are?

[clidd]

Yep, he's scum.

[clidd]

[clidd]

Sorry for the absence.

Let me see what I missed.

[clidd]

i dont need to justify anything.

This already doesn’t strike me as genuine. I think you would more aggressively look to understand my perspective if you actually think I’m Town here even if I’m wrong.

okay first thing's first. i am hardclaiming

town N2 rolecop

. crumbed it in the first word(s) of each line of this post:

n two

other quick points

-

role

claiming this messily after like 5 pages of softclaiming and floundering and confusion makes it pretty much unthinkable to me that andante is being anything but genuine here. my shaky but incredibly persistent gut townread had some merit to it all along dadgummit
-

cop

, mafia, vig, gunsmith, etc. all have guns. given the wide range of roles that can possess guns, i don't think focusing too hard on the total number before anyone at all has flipped is going to grant us any useful setup information. i still don't truly understand why you're so convinced a traitor must be in here. again, trackers do NOT have guns, so it doesn't tell us anything about the veracity of robert's claim. why didn't you bother to verify that before going down this road?

i had hoped to get this claim in at the very start of the day to avoid the appearance of picking a side with my night result, but the late daystart meant that i fell asleep before that could happen.


i checked

PookyTheMagicalBear

in hopes of identifying him as either traitor or doc. it felt more productive than attempting to sus out a town fakeclaim.

he is confirmed vanilla townie

.

Hum.

[clidd]

My vote is completely unrelated to mechanics.

I think Town!Koba more aggressively pushes me if they disagree with me, and I think they hold their ground a lot stronger. Hammering T3 after they had already identified them as Town low hanging fruit just doesn’t sit right me. I refuse to believe this is Town Koba.

i'm not familiar with koba's meta but the attempt to defend themself has been weak so far. combine this with the fact that i can finally reveal that i essentially

KNOW for a fact

that either Asteria or Koba or both are lying about having a gun (2 gunned mafia + me + Andante = 4; 1 gunned mafia + Andante + Asteria + me = 4) and voila. the second scenario is already a bit of a stretch to me because it relies on the existence of a traitor. asteria is very possibly lying as well

VOTE: DkKoba

Ok.

[clidd]

This just makes me think Anya is a roleblocker and Lemons is actually scum here. A day 2 Rolecop would suggest that there aren't 2 Mafia docs, which would also mean that Dk and asteria are both scum. They are never going to both be scum.
The check on Pooky is odd here. But this makes Pooky town regardless for me.

I think Anya is a good lim still.

@Clidd

thoughts here?

Mech stuff isn't really my thing, honestly.

I'm having trouble understanding the inferences that lead you to RB!Anya, scum!Lemon and scumpair!Dk&Asteria.

[clidd]

Ok, I don't understand the mechanics being discussed in relation to the scum doctors and guns, so I need someone to summarize the claims and results in a simplified way.

[clidd]

Also: I'm a town one-shot detective who got a negative result on Pooky during the N1 (he didn't try to kill anyone that night).

This may be useful for the setup spec ^

[clidd]

@Pooky @Lemons

Thanks.

[clidd]

Who uses a 1-Shot Detective Night one? What a joke this game.

I think its a fake claim to confuse the game even more.

Do you think I'm scum?

[clidd]

Who uses a 1-Shot Detective Night one? What a joke this game.

I think its a fake claim to confuse the game even more.

Do you think I'm scum?

I'm thinking yes.
Sabil doesn't look to have Pooky as a valid N1 check.

Hum.

I expected another reason, but this is also possible for town!you.

[clidd]

I feel like I should be putting in more effort to PoE scum, but atm my energy levels are low.

[clidd]

Is a solve with Lemons + Asteria + Osuka possible?

[clidd]

Because that's what I'm thinking by play.

[clidd]

Is a solve with Lemons + Asteria + Osuka possible?

Actually no, nvm.

[clidd]

There is scum between Andres and Dk.

[clidd]

I'm leaning Lemons+ Asteria + {Andres or Osuka}

Dk stills null but can be scum by PoE if Lemons or Asteria isn't scum.

[clidd]

I'm leaning Lemons+ Asteria + {Andres or Osuka}

Dk stills null but can be scum by PoE if Lemons or Asteria isn't scum.

can i have some of that tea it looks good

Sure, sharing is one of my virtues.

[clidd]

Although it doesn't materialize sometimes due to my mood (which is usually volatile).

[clidd]

really? lmfao

fuck this.

i give up./

do whatever yall want

whats the point if no one is listening.

I feel like you would post all of this in two or three posts if you were really upset, but considering the amount, it seems to me that you want visibility.

[clidd]

Doesn't say much about your alignment though. You are the type of person who creates fake townslips as town, so I wouldn't be surprised if that desire to "get attention" intentionally was still in your town-range.

[clidd]

Doesn't say much about your alignment though. You are the type of person who creates fake townslips as town, so I wouldn't be surprised if that desire to "get attention" intentionally was still in your town-range.

Alternatively, the feeling can be real, but you are probably still aware of the reasons your slot is being suspected, so I don't understand why it would be frustrating for town!you if it's not a theater.

[clidd]

whats the point if no one is listening.

You’re calling me Scum for being skeptical about the movement of the votes at the end of D1. No one should be listening to you on that.

Actually, I felt some scumpings reading your ISO, but you have being mostly townposting so I’m ignoring it for now.

[clidd]

Maybe it's just your personality, but the way you say some things at times seems premeditated, as if you had a plan before posting instead of just posting what you're thinking.

[clidd]

But as I said, maybe it's just a misinterpretation on my part.

[clidd]

A not very popular explanation would be if there was only one scum between the claims and we were forcing scumreads on town slots, creating the feeling that we are not being able to find out who is scum (considering that we're scumhunting for 2~3 where there is just 1).

[clidd]

But I believe that there are mechanical implications that make this scenario less likely ^

[clidd]

So the simplest assumption, if the mech spec about the claims is correct, is that scum is not being obvious and operating in a towny manner (just like Amélie in our past game, Pooky).

[clidd]

Asteria and Lemons would fit well the description of deepwolfs, although it's not so clear whether Dk is scum or not.

[clidd]

The speculation surrounding Salsa and I was interesting but I still think you are a potential deepwolf.

[clidd]

I mean, if you're town, Dk is likely scum, but I'm leaning more you than them.

[clidd]

Unless there is only one scum between claims.

In that case, you could both be town (and the scumteam would look like Asteria + Osuka + Andres)

pedit: I don't see you two as S | S, but this is a personal interpretation of mine. I feel that the way you talked about them did not strike me as an approach about a scum partner (in the scum!you scenario).

[clidd]

@Pooky

Probably Dk.

Lemon and Asteria seem like deepwolfs.

pedit: PoE. You aren't both scum, but can't be both town. If one is town, the other is likely scum.

And in relation to the non S | S, it is difficult to explain because it's a very moonlogic view of my brain about the interaction of the two of you throughout the game + external factor. So you can consider "PoE" as my main reason.

[clidd]

Tbh, I'm not sure about anything.

Dk can very well be scum here, as I said, if you are town, but the confused gamestate makes me think that scum is not visible to the eye because they're playing well and looking towny (something that Dk, if scum, is not)

I can also be wrong about you(Lemon) and Dk not being partners, but I really don't see that rn.

[clidd]

It's difficult to speculate without any scumflip as a starting point.

[clidd]

[clidd]

Ok, it's my turn to rest.

[clidd]

Meh, Asteria is scumposting.

[clidd]

Where is your vote then?

[clidd]

makes me think clidd is probably just scum and claiming in hope of more TPR elims.

I don't think this is a real thought for town!you ^

[clidd]

It seems to me a cognitive distortion for town!you to think that scum!Clidd would have in mind the goal you mentioned.

[clidd]

In the sense that town!you wouldn't believe in what you're saying.

[clidd]

Not saying that town!you wouldn't think of me as scum by PoE/role, but the specific reason you suggested is not compatible with an evaluative town reasoning about what would be the practical intention of scum!Clidd when executing the claim.

[clidd]

Hum.

That was a better explanation.

[clidd]

I wonder why you were scumposting on the last page before engaging with me.

[clidd]

@Dk

Welcome back.

Do you have any takes on Lemon/Asteria?

Both seem to consider you the town side by mech.

[clidd]

I wonder why you were scumposting on the last page before engaging with me.

Where do you think I was scumposting?

Spoiler:

20 pages in one day

We know for fact that one of the claims is lying now. We have 4 guns claimed and 4 guns total. I don't think Lemons and Koba are both lying so I'm thinking we are dealing with a traitor. If one of them is lying I would bet Koba. Lemons is in a good position right now as scum and this would be a really risky move. Especially since if we do elim me or koba and find out they are town, Lemons would be in a very bad position.

i'm willing to call this a scumslip. in trying to curry favour by defending players she knows to be town, scum!asteria has revealed that she is mentally counting herself as armed mafioso rather than as her real claim. town!asteria does not believe that koba and i are both telling the truth, because to believe so necessitates the belief that none of the mafia are armed. and we know she didn't just miss the andante flip because she directly quotes anya's "rip andante" message earlier in the same post.

sound reasonable to anyone else?

What?? How does what I said not make sense to you from a town PR perspective. You should be in the exact same boat as me if your claim is true.
Me - gun
Andante - gun
Lemon - gun
Koba - gun

That's 4 guns. Scum has to have at least 1 gun. I don't think both Lemon and Koba are lying so that leads me to believe scum only have 1 gun (

because 1 of them is lying but

not both

.

) Which means doc and traitor or doc and doc.

i'm willing to call this a scumslip. in trying to curry favour by defending players she knows to be town, scum!asteria has revealed that she is mentally counting herself as armed mafioso rather than as her real claim. town!asteria does not believe that koba and i are both telling the truth, because to believe so necessitates the belief that none of the mafia are armed. and we know she didn't just miss the andante flip because she directly quotes anya's "rip andante" message earlier in the same post.

I’m not following this logic at all. Walk me through it like I was a child.

we have 4 gunned PR claims:
- Andante as gunsmith (confirmed)
- Asteria as neapolitan (unconfirmed)
- DK as weak vig (unconfirmed)
- me as role cop (unconfirmed)

knowing that we have 4 guns in play, the possibilities are:

- Andante + 2 gunned mafia + {Asteria, Dk, or me}
- Andante + 1 gunned mafioso + {Asteria and Dk, Asteria and me, or Dk and me)

Asteria is approaching this from the perspective that 2 people are telling the truth, which puts us in the second scenario. she asserts that these 2 people are myself and Dk, which would make

asteria herself the liar.

what sense does it make for a real Neapolitan to make this mistake? did she forget what was in her role PM? did she forget that andante died? not likely. what's more plausible to me is that, because

in her own mind

she is already accounted for as the gunned mafioso, she forgot to account for herself again in the PR pool.

it is impossible for nea!asteria to believe that Dk and I are both telling the truth, because that theory refutes her own claim.

the only way for this to have happened is by a massive blunder of logic, and the explanation for that blunfer that makes the most sense to me is that asteria forgot to account for herself in the PR claims.

The part I bolded is

exactly

what I said. I never said you and Koba are telling the truth. I said I don't think

both

of you are lying. Meaning I think 1 is telling the truth and the other is lying. Meaning I don't think both of you are scum and we're dealing with 2 gunned mafia.

So if Asteria is telling the truth, given your Role Cop Claim, DkKoba has to be lying. But that’s it no? Who else has claimed anything?

This is what I'm thinking. Lemon's claim doesn't make sense coming from mafia wanting a believable fakeclaim when they know I exist

But I don’t see how Asteria is implying that they’re Scum with the assumption that DkKoba and you Insidious aren’t both lying. If only one of them is lying, doesn’t scenario 2 still allow for Asteria to be Town? That’s what I’m not getting.

Like Asteria didn’t assert Insidious and Koba are both telling the truth, but I think Asteria was saying that they think only one of them is not. That’s different than what your interpretation is.

I’m trying to be careful with this because Scum slips are rare, and this one doesn’t feel like one at all to me.

Yes! And this is exactly what I said. Idk why Lemon's chose to interpret it as I think both are telling the truth when I said I don't think both are lying. Makes no sense

Frankly we need to sort out between {Asteria, Koba}. No other execution makes any sense, and VFP pushing Anya is absurd. If we get it right, we mostly likely clear 3 other players and put the Scum on the ropes. Take it that Insidious is telling the truth. I already had Pooky as very likely Town so I’ll buy the clear, which now 2 different players have confirmed in different ways (remember, Andante also cleared them of a gun and now we know they’re not a Doctor. They would have to be strictly Traitor and I’m not seeing that). So, Pooky would be cleared, and the two other gun claims would be cleared. That leaves a really narrow pathway to victory for Scum.

Unless Lemon's and Andres are scum together, I'm back to reading Andres as town

she asserts that these 2 people are myself and Dk, which would make asteria herself the liar.

Like yeah I think this assumption is incorrect. You should have asked to clarify before I think. I don’t take Asteria’s statement to mean that she thinks you and Koba are both telling the truth. The statement absolutely leaves the option open that 1 of you is lying, just not the both of you.

you're totally right. disregard everything I've said about this being a scumslip, i simply misread "i don't think both koba and lemons are lying" as "i don't think koba and lemons are lying"

I'll accept this but I'm still leaving everything I already typed up just to show my pov

Oh wait wait. No. The Neapolitan gets a Vanilla Townie result right?

I have a result telling me VFP is a vanilla townie so VFP is conftown from my pov

Wait so how do we ever not execute between Asteria and Koba here? What other execution even remotely makes sense? If Koba flips Scum, that’s good, we have a circle of trust of sorts and the Scum is outside. Unless there’s no Traitor and one of the PRs is Scum.

We vote Koba. Scum will nk me anyway because they don't want me clearing another townie or finding someone who isn't vanilla town. If I don't die overnight then I'll accept being eliminated because that makes 0 sense

Why does it make it false when the claim can get 2 town PRs mis lynched and just win the game?
It's not genius it's pretty basic scum play.

Well I doubt that Insidious is lying about their actual Role then. So the Scum have a N2 Role Cop, a Mafia Doctor, and a Role Blocker?

If this is the case then we still have a lie within the gun claims. I know I have a gun, Andante is confirmed to have a gun, and Lemon's was going after Koba right? So that doesn't make sense either.

Normal Guidelines
A Traitor is considered Normal on mafiascum.net, as long as it:

gives a "guilty" result to Cops, an "innocent" result to Gunsmiths, and a "Traitor" result to Role Cops

Does this support our claims? A cop (me), gunsmith (Andante), and role cop (Lemons)? Then Koba is the odd one out?

There's something I want to check about Lemons and this is my reminder to do that after I catch up (also want to check clidd slot after the detective claim)

I called out lemon and now today theyre claiming role cop not on me which is BS

This is what's making me so torn on Koba or Lemons. Lemons felt so town to me the whole game but now their target just makes no sense

I feel like lemon claimed here so that they could resist my legacy read on them but also in a way that doesn't lock them in a cc with either PR

I could see this an I could see Andres' thing about Lemon's looking for the traitor

You’ve also used the “Scum slip” attack twice now. Once on Andante, and now on Asteria.

Look, it’s time to call bullshit. I will sheep VFP and execute amongst {Anya, Insidious}.

I'm ok with this.

asteria/dkkoba + t3? + bear??

Here’s the thing. This is a fascinating solve by Anya. Don’t you think? It heavily implies that a Traitor is present in the game. By this stage, you have a claim by Andante that there’s 4 guns, Koba is a claimed Weak Vig as per 2032, Andante is a claimed Gunsmith (but not in the solve, as per 1182, 1212), and Asteria is a claimed Neapolitan (2134). With a Mafia Doc, you know that either 2 of Asteria/Koba/Andante is Scum, or 1 is with a Traitor present. But they don’t seem to entertain the alternative at all if I’m not wrong. So if you TR Andante say, wouldn’t you speak about the entire situation, and how it could mean that both Asteria and Koba are Scum together?

i didn't see the 4 guns thing from andante

asteria and dkkoba were going for each other at the time and i felt like 1 of them was wolf

You didn't see the 4 guns claim? That was long before this post with a lot of discussion around it?

Also: I'm a town one-shot detective who got a negative result on Pooky during the N1 (he didn't try to kill anyone that night).

This may be useful for the setup spec ^

If this is serious we have 5 town guns claimed??

this implies lemon/asteria are scum

Well for me it implies Koba/lemon are scum

At this point is might be worth Anya, Osuka, and Andre claiming.
Since everyone is already outed and there's most likely 2+ scum in the PRs.

Yep, we're basically massclaimed now anyway

I don't think it's possible for us to be playing in a 0 gun scum world because that would be massive trolling by Datisi and the NRG.

I'd like to mass claim to figure out what the setup is and where the best elim is today.

I am a Vanilla Townie.

I'm gonna guess we have 2 lying. 3 is a lot

@Everyone voting me: of all the claims so far besides maybe Koba, I'm the one scum want to NK. Just leave me for scum to get

Asteria [5]: DkKoba, Salsabil Faria, Andresvmb, InsidiousLemons, Anya

Asteria is the least likely to be Scum. Three of the Gun claims are on this wagon.

Green Crayons [5]: PookyTheMagicalBear, VFP, Robert M Hunter, Andante, T3

And this wagon looks pretty wholesome.

I want these in my iso to remind me to look over VCs. I think the gun claims are solvable if we incorporate interactions and VCs and everything else we know

I don't think it's possible for us to be playing in a 0 gun scum world because that would be massive trolling by Datisi and the NRG.

I'd like to mass claim to figure out what the setup is and where the best elim is today.

I am a Vanilla Townie.

clidd gun claim came last which is probably town dunno why he'd wanna put himself in that poe if he's wolf

also salsa was clearly town when she reacted to osuka

i'm vt

The PoE of guns is almost as bad for scum as the PoE of VTs at this point
I don't think holding on to salsa's reaction that early in the same is really viable anymore

Is a solve with Lemons + Asteria + Osuka possible?

Just gonna point out I'm semi-pushing Lemons and if we didn't have this mess of gun claims I would be pushing Osuka like I did last day

i'm willing to call this a scumslip. in trying to curry favour by defending players she knows to be town, scum!asteria has revealed that she is mentally counting herself as armed mafioso rather than as her real claim. town!asteria does not believe that koba and i are both telling the truth, because to believe so necessitates the belief that none of the mafia are armed. and we know she didn't just miss the andante flip because she directly quotes anya's "rip andante" message earlier in the same post.

I’m not following this logic at all. Walk me through it like I was a child.

we have 4 gunned PR claims:
- Andante as gunsmith (confirmed)
- Asteria as neapolitan (unconfirmed)
- DK as weak vig (unconfirmed)
- me as role cop (unconfirmed)

knowing that we have 4 guns in play, the possibilities are:

- Andante + 2 gunned mafia + {Asteria, Dk, or me}
- Andante + 1 gunned mafioso + {Asteria and Dk, Asteria and me, or Dk and me)

Asteria is approaching this from the perspective that 2 people are telling the truth, which puts us in the second scenario. she asserts that these 2 people are myself and Dk, which would make

asteria herself the liar.

what sense does it make for a real Neapolitan to make this mistake? did she forget what was in her role PM? did she forget that andante died? not likely. what's more plausible to me is that, because

in her own mind

she is already accounted for as the gunned mafioso, she forgot to account for herself again in the PR pool.

it is impossible for nea!asteria to believe that Dk and I are both telling the truth, because that theory refutes her own claim.

the only way for this to have happened is by a massive blunder of logic, and the explanation for that blunfer that makes the most sense to me is that asteria forgot to account for herself in the PR claims.

oh yeah i didnt notice that. good catch

it's almost as if ive been saying that slot is scum. that sounds familiar to me but i can't figure out why for the life of me

Interesting how Osuka is jumping on a "scumslip" that has already been proven to be based on incorrect logic...

how does lemons know i am a vanilla townie !?!?

Lemons got vanilla on you right? And Andante got no gun.

i agree with a lot of the points being made on dk and by play they are a very solid scumread for me. what i'm getting stuck on is that, as multiple people have pointed out, if there's a "real" vig they would have almost certainly cc'd or managed to kill someone by now. and if there is no other vig, then we have to ask ourselves: does a setup with a red herring mafia doctor really make it into the normal queue? my strong suspicion is no, but i'm unfamiliar with the approval process so i'd like to hear from people who are

I'm also unfamiliar but this makes sense. Why a mafia doctor if there's nothing to protect themselves from

Anyway...

So at this point all 4 PRs should give 2 favoured scum in the PR claims.

I agree but I need some time to think on this.

I do know outside the PR pool I'm leaning Osuka/Anya though

wait nevermind that second point i keep forgetting the traitor knows who the mafia are i promise i'm not trying to dumbtell

p-edit ah fuck okay lemme reread

Someone tell me if this dumbtell is viable because I'm about to start considering it when reading Lemon's

That said I also think Koba's role makes the most sense with a mafia doctor and I don't see why the TPR pair would be a non-con nea and a night 2 role-cop. Also my mixed feelings on both those slots makes me think clidd is probably just scum and claiming in hope of more TPR elims.

Well seeing that I'm the last to answer that top question I'm gonna go ahead and say Clidd+Lemons are the scum. I feel best about clidd though. The reason I'm saying Koba is the town is because why would town have 2 investigative roles against a mafia doctor instead of a vig and an investigative. It just mechanically makes more sense.

Here ^

The formatting of your posts reflected me as visually polluted and not exactly an approach that would help you understand the game, which is something that I classify as one of the criteria for scumposting. Not saying you were trying to be busy, but the intention seemed more to demonstrate that you were doing something (considering the number of multiple interactions) than to establish an informative catch up that would help you absorb the information and clear up your doubts (which would be a more objective/organized approach).

There are also some suggestive points of tonality in the way you commented on some topics, but the most ''rational'' reason, without entering the emotional field (which is difficult to debate), is still the impression above.

[clidd]

@Dk

Welcome back.

Do you have any takes on Lemon/Asteria?

Both seem to consider you the town side by mech.

i still think lemon has to be scum here and their choice of check is just like definitive proof of that to me

Judging by play, what does Lemon's behavior suggest to you? (ignoring the mechanical aspect).

[clidd]

I'm not sure what to think about Dk.

They can be doing that as both alignments, but maybe scum!Dk would put additional effort (or back out of the claim earlier).

Particularly, I still prefer an elimination between PRs (Lemon/Asteria), but I'm leaning more towards Asteria rn.

[clidd]

If I think about non-PRs, I would say that {Andres/Osuka} is the pool most likely to have scum.

Pooky is town by mech and Vfp/Anya reflect me as town by play. Vfp is a relatively easy player for me to read (considering our past game), so I probably would have already identified scumpings if he was scum, while Anya has a more organic and less lamist posting compared to Andres and Osuka (something important since scum would be more inclined to put effort/try to be seen as town at this point in the game to maintain the advantage).

[clidd]

But considering that tomorrow is ELO, I still intend to reassess my impressions periodically (to reduce the chance of error).

So, yeah, I'm open to listen to opposing opinions.

[clidd]

Her explanation was plausible to me, but that doesn't make the slot town ^

[clidd]

I wonder why you were scumposting on the last page before engaging with me.

it's this post that pings for me. there's an implication here that asteria has become a townread because of her explanation

3853 is just a reflection in relation to the transition of posting before and after the interaction with me, not that she had become a townread.

[clidd]

Correction: 3827, not 3853

[clidd]

After a third reread, I'm comfortable with this vote:

VOTE: Asteria

[clidd]

I wouldn't mind voting on Lemon either if there is no interest on the vote above.

[clidd]

Although I'm primarily leaning Asteria atm.

[clidd]

[clidd]

Hum.

[clidd]

I would not be against a political elimination of Dk (if consensus), but that would be more "punishing errors" than "eliminating a slot that I think is scum".

[clidd]

I mean, the retract on the claim is not good, but I don't see a practical reason that justifies the risk for scum!Dk. I imagined something like 7 scenarios that could perhaps suggest a beneficial line of action in the medium to long term, but they all involve a more active participation of scum!Dk to work. Apathy and loss of interest are uncharacteristic of scum planning (in the context of their engagement with the current gamestate).

[clidd]

It's quite difficult to judge what's going on in Dk's head tbh, regardless of alignment, but scum!they would probably be more inclined to avoid instances of AtE to increase the chance of survival, or at least maintain a minimum level of engagement with the game to extend the advantage of miselims (something that would fit into the scum!Dk scenarios I mentioned earlier). The absence of these elements makes the approach if scum, coming to D3, inconsistent.

[clidd]

Alternatively, they could be scum who was not planning and noticed that their slot is in a terrible position, but again, I don't see a practical scum benefit at this level of apathy. Their predecessor(GC) was scummy, yeah, but I didn't find anything in his iso that would make me believe that the slot is 90~100% scum. The hypothesis of "town being scummy" is still possible, although not very likely in the balance of his interactions before leaving the slot (but I'm ignoring that for now).

[clidd]

Historically speaking, I tend to have a low read accuracy in relation to their slot in the games we played, so I wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong (and they're scum who got emotionally involved and lost motivation), but this is still an unsatisfactory explanation for the scum!Dk model that I have in mind.

[clidd]

what retract

The retract on the claim.

[clidd]

imagine koba claiming VT after all that lol

i might as well be

the only chance for me to be cleared was supposedly wasted too

Unless I misinterpreted this sequence ^

[clidd]

Oh, ok.

So you can ignore the part where I mention that (although it doesn't change much my opinion about the slot).

[clidd]

For some reason I was expecting this claim to be false, but I'm probably confusing Dk with FL (which has already done some vig fakeclaims as town).

[clidd]

After a third reread, I'm comfortable with this vote:

VOTE: Asteria

Why are you actively ignoring that I'm the logical NK tonight?

I'm expressing my preference, regardless of mechanical implications. Realistically speaking, Lemon is likely to happen today instead of you, so it's not like you're at risk of being eliminated.

What does my attitude suggest to you?

[clidd]

@Anya

If you are talking about the forum, it will depend on player to player, but in non-newbie games, critical thinking is usually greater (and more difficult for scum AtE to succeed).

In the context of scum!Dk, there would be more consistent alternative ways of playing the day, which is the point where I don't understand why emotional appeal would be a plausible option for them.

[clidd]

Not saying that the feeling isn't real, but there would be more reasons for scum!Dk to not show a lack of engagement than town!Dk.

[clidd]

Your reads look like a mirror of opinions and impressions that already exist, but that you have reformulated to look like something of your own ^

Can be unconscious, but whatever, my position about you is still the same.

[clidd]

[clidd]

Asteria said something very interesting.

I'll take a break to re-check something.

[clidd]

"That" something, to be specific.

[clidd]

I'm back, and no, my read hasn't changed yet.

[clidd]

But I would like to see opinions on Asteria's latest post sequence.

[clidd]

@Lemons / Dk / asteria / Clidd
Can you list in order your views on scum to town within the VTs? (Me, Pooky, Anya, Osuka, Andre) I'm not looking for reasons (at least at this point).

I'm leaning town on you (Vfp), Pooky and Anya.

Not sure on DK (can't find good enough reasons to townread or scumread, but can be scum by PoE). They're null.

Leaning scum on Osuka and Andres (one scum between them).

[clidd]

Osuka is more scummy than Andres though, so Osuka>Andres would be the order of intensity.

While my townpool is Vfp>Pooky>Anya.

[clidd]

Probably Osuka.

[clidd]

Oh, and just to contextualize my activity level, I can vary a lot in the sense of effort from game to game. It's conscious.

Not that I necessarily get tired, but I like to approach games in different ways. It isn't AI.

[clidd]

Why do you think that Anya is scum, Pooky?

[clidd]

Hum.

[clidd]

The change of instance of Dk on Anya is a bit radical, but not necessarily scummy, maybe town "omgusing". Anya has reflected me as generic town for a while due to the organic way of posting, but I would not rule out the chance of scum!she, although I would also had to force my mind to accept that Osuka and Andres are both town to accept such scenario.

pedit: I can vote there too.

[clidd]

also does your reasoning for wanting anya dead go beyond "she's on the asteria wagon"

anya feels very surface level and barely playing the game

I'm kind of lazy rn, but iirc that's how town!Anya plays.

[clidd]

Apparently the wagon on Asteria isn't going to happen.

[clidd]

@Lemon

Assuming that your elimination occurs today, do you have final reads?

[clidd]

@Lemon

Just as an imagination exercise, how would your reads adapt to the town!Clidd scenario?

[clidd]

Impossible to happen or very unlikely? ^

[clidd]

I was judging him by play, not considering synergy of roles.

[clidd]

Hum.

[clidd]

I think that Lemon's wallpost was potentially emulated from an informed perspective that tried to show itself as uninformed. I don't sympathize with the thought process.

[clidd]

And the timing in which it emerged reflected me as an effort that seem to sought something in return and not an expression of reads genuinely concerned with gamesolve, regardless of whether the slot was eliminated or not.

[clidd]

My guess is that it was an attempt to suggest a reevaluation of the consensus that was being formed on his elimination (probably to repel it).

Something like "hey, look at how descriptive is my reasoning, I'm trying really hard to find who is scum"

[clidd]

Spoiler:

@Lemon

Assuming that your elimination occurs today, do you have final reads?

aight here goes hail mary readslist time

GUN POOL (2 scum):

clidd: the second most likely to be scum, and my personal pick for an elim today. a large part of the reason comes from the knowledge of my own role -- i don't think d1 detective/n2 rolecop/gunsmith is nearly strong enough. as i've said before, it's strongly suspect to me that salsa wouldn't reveal their N1 check info. asteria plus clidd is absolutely an acceptable combination to me and i find it strange that VFP

koba:

asteria:

lemons: idk check was kinda sus :/

VT POOL (1 scum)

osuka:

anya:

andres:

VFP:

pooky: conf-VT

And this was "hey, look, I don't have a PT to post" ^

[clidd]

Lemon + Asteria + Osuka is my solve.

[clidd]

VOTE: InsidiousLemons

[clidd]

Maybe I could be wrong about Osuka, but I do think that he's more scummy than the rest of the VT pool.

That's something for later anyways.

[clidd]

Oh, and just to contextualize my activity level, I can vary a lot in the sense of effort from game to game. It's conscious.

Not that I necessarily get tired, but I like to approach games in different ways. It isn't AI.

scumposting

And no, that's not scumposting.

[clidd]

Asteria's reaction after noting that she will not be eliminated today:

[clidd]

@Lemon

Assuming that your elimination occurs today, do you have final reads?

We still have enough time to go over things here.

I'm already done with who I think is scum, but yeah, we have some time.

[clidd]

Not exactly 100%, of course, but I have no problem with eliminating Lemon.

[clidd]

uhhh lol \

how much time is left

3~4 days

[clidd]

He's at E-3 rn.

[clidd]

i dont like the sense of apathy in this thread

What do you mean?

[clidd]

I'm not surprised.

[clidd]

Don't worry, everything will be fine.

And, well, if it doesn't, that's ok too. We all learn from mistakes and etc.

[clidd]

I mean, I probably would have already reevaluated my read on Lemon if he was town, so my expectation is a red flip.

[clidd]

And if you're town here, it isn't like you would be in a auto-bad spot tomorrow with a Lemon scumflip, although I don't understand much of mechanics to base myself on the implication that his mechanical role specification would have on your alignment (according to the setup spec that Pooky did).

[clidd]

Regarding the activity, I didn't notice anything strange.

I found it better than hyperposting games.

[clidd]

So.. That's it.

We needs more votes to take down the *deepwolf* Lemon.

[clidd]

Or a contrary consensus advocating my elimination for information (if people want a more difficult game mode).

[clidd]

[clidd]

Maybe it's Asteria + Dk and then one of Osuka/Andres.

[clidd]

I wanted to townread Dk, but idk. They could be good at reading me or just know that I'm town. On balance, TMI is more likely than a correct assessment (especially with me doing nothing to look towny).

[clidd]

Lemon is trying a lot and, if he's scum, I'm fine losing to good scumplay.

[clidd]

I was leaning Osuka as the very likely scum in the VT pool, but Andres’s mental disconnect is strange and I don’t rule out the possibility that he could be “floating” according to the pace, but without taking an original instance, either out of complacency or not wanting to attract attention. In any case, he's still included in my pool.

[clidd]

Everything I'm saying is by play, btw.

I don't really care about mechanics right now.

[clidd]

Everything I'm saying is by play, btw.

I don't really care about mechanics right now.

In the sense of balance.

The gun info is still relevant.

[clidd]

Anya and Vfp work as both town to me.

Vfp is because I know how his thinking works as town and Anya by the organic typing frequency. Scum!Anya posts would probably be more serious comparatively.

[clidd]

Pooky has had the same "I'm lost, lol" attitude from our past game (where he was town) and I haven't felt any scumping since the moment I joined. So yeah, also town (besides the results on him + my result).

[clidd]

That said, this is the vote that makes more sense to me:

VOTE: Asteria

I still have doubts about Dk, but Asteria appears in both solve scenarios, so I imagine that the % of hitting scum is higher on her than Lemon or Dk.

pedit: I mean, you ignored the possibility of wifom and any other explanation for scum!clidd/scum!salsa.

[clidd]

If you're town, sure, you did quite well in keeping your read correct, but I do think that maybe you would be more inclined to reevaluate from a town pov.

Not saying that you're scum, but I’m trying to understand if there was some tmi involved.

[clidd]

Lemon is trying a lot and, if he's scum, I'm fine losing to good scumplay.

effort =/= towniness

True, depending on the intention and duration time.

His has been extended to the point that I don't understand how someone who has not played for years on the forum and in his first game back (if scum) manages to maintain an engagement gas without any cognitive load.

[clidd]

Yeah, I know, but I don't want to underestimate you.

It's even more difficult because town is mixed with scum pushing me and you being the person defending my slot makes me want to unconsciously recognize you as town (and I shouldn't).

[clidd]

Regardless, I believe that Asteria is the right call, although there is a political argument that the slot should be left alive (that I'm not a fan, as I don't think that she'll die).

Lemon could be deepwolf, but again, the effort is starting to sound disproportionate to the scum-range that I imagine scum!Lemon would have (especially after being away from mafia for years).

[clidd]

I don't see myself voting Dk, at least not today.

If I'm in a scenario where the options are limited to Lemon/Me, however, perhaps my elimination would be better to reset the game, although that would make things more difficult for the next days (if town didn't manage to properly extract information from my flip)

[clidd]

Well, that's it. Asteria is current my top pick for scum.

[clidd]

Regardless, I believe that Asteria is the right call, although there is a political argument that the slot should be left alive (that I'm not a fan, as I don't think that she'll die).

It’s not a political argument. It’s a mechanical one.

Btw, if Asteria flips Town, I’m going to hard push this slot to be executed immediately.

It feels political to me, but yeah, conceptually speaking, it's a mech argument.

[clidd]

I still don't understand why people want to vote me when I'll be NKed anyway.

Aim somewhere else so you don't for sure get 2 town flips

. I outlined how salsa was not acting in any way like she was more informed of the town gun count than everyone else when the claims happened earlier. I'm almost positive it's clidd.

"It's not me, I'm 100% town" - classic.

I mean, you're mostly PoE, but you also don't seem to be acting like someone who is going to be NK'd and your survival instinct is scummy.

[clidd]

You went from 60% to 70% now. Thanks.

[clidd]

@Lemon

Osuka and Andres aren't fighting, but I do think that there is scum between them. It's a T|S, as I townread everyone else on the VT pool besides both.

[clidd]

Andres has a robotic and premeditated playstyle, but I didn't go far beyond the surface to explore the differences in town!Andres and scum!Andres by meta. It's not an emergency for me at the moment (and he's PoE).

Regarding Osuka, he gives me an impression of bad faith in general and he's worse compared to all the others that I reevaluated during my reread time, but with a competitor (Andres), I'm open to the possibility of being wrong about him (instead of just assume that he's the most likely scum among VTs).

[clidd]

And I really don't see scum!Anya or scum!Vfp being real.

As well as scum!Pooky.

Gun to head my answer would be the same.

[clidd]

But, of course, this is all speculation.

It' not easy to be precise without any scumflip, so I'm interested on Asteria, considering that a redflip on her can drastically change the course of the game in favor of town.

[clidd]

You don't have to townread me, it's fine, but if you're townreading Dk, you shouldn't have any problem voting my hypothetical partner (Asteria).

[clidd]

Meh.²

[clidd]

Probably Dk as Lemons buddy.

I'll probably just go with whatever Pooky said yesterday.

Yep.

I'll take a look to see who is most likely to be the last scum between Osuka and Andres.

[clidd]

To be honest I lost motivation with asteria flipping town and was hoping to be the NK.

We can still make a comeback, don't worry.

The blame was on me anyways.

[clidd]

Actually, it's the opposite, but you already know that.

[clidd]

This is probably a post-game discussion, but I don't think it was necessarily a mistake in my analysis on you, because I felt that you were TMIng me as town without necessarily having indications that led you to such read, but the fact that I didn't press this specific point in a rational way was a missplay on my part, so yeah, it's kind of ridiculous.

But I'm not mad, you did the right thing according to your alignment wicon. I will keep this in mind for future games with you.

[clidd]

I don't think that anyone will buy that I'm scum, regardless of what you two say.

But sure, keep trying.

[clidd]

@Vfp

Would you want a Dk>Lemon elim order or Lemon>Dk order?

[clidd]

Pooky had a lot of results on him (including mine), which made his NK value increase (because although he was not a clear, he would hardly be voted).

[clidd]

And considering that he was suspicious of Anya, an additional intention could be selling the idea that his death would be linked to this read.

[clidd]

Which probably spew Anya as +town.

[clidd]

Hum.

I'm wondering why you and Lemon are trying to push a scum!Anya narrative.

[clidd]

Scum!Anya could only make sense if you two thought that the game would end before the mech thing of 2/3 scums on guns ended.

So it wouldn't matter if the scum between VTs was discovered, since ideally the game would end with my elimination before 3-way on D6.

[clidd]

But even so, it doesn't seem like a correct play. There was no need for all scums to vote for the main wagon, as the speed could spew Osuka/Andres as town for being both off-wagon.

pedit: Hallo my friend.

[clidd]

Me being the ''leading player'' on both town wagons spews me as town, by the way.

[clidd]

As a recent example, Vfp, you can consult our latest game:

Spoiler:

VC 1.25

Featherless Biped (2)-

DrippingGoofball, April Ludgate

Dannflor (0)-

Amélie (0)-

DrippingGoofball (0)-

AliceK (0)-

geraintm (0)-

Gretchen (0)-

April Ludgate (0)-

RLotus (0)-

clidd (0)-

bugspray (0)-

HypoSoc (7)-

clidd, RLotus, Dannflor, Gretchen, Featherless Biped, bugspray, Solon

Eliminated

Solon (2)-

Hyposoc, Alice K

Not Voting (2)-

Amélie, geraintm

With

13

alive, it takes

7

to Eliminate.

Deadline is in

(expired on 2021-03-08 16:00:00)

-

Mar 8th 16:00 GMT

VC 2.26

PookyTheMagicalBear (0)-

Amélie (0)-

DrippingGoofball (6)-

FleaTheMagician, geraintm, Gretchen, RLotus, LlamaFluff, clidd

-ELIMINATED

FleaTheMagician (0)-

geraintm (2)-

VFP, PookyTheMagicalBear

Gretchen (1)-

Amélie

VFP (0)-

RLotus (0)-

clidd (1)-

Almost50

LlamaFluff (0)-

Almost50 (1)-

DrippingGoofball

Not Voting (0)-

With

11

alive, it takes

6

to Eliminate.

Deadline is

(expired on 2021-03-29 23:59:00)

- Mar 29th 23:59 GMT

VC 3.10

PookyTheMagicalBear (0)-

Titus (0)-

Flea The Magician (1)-

RLotus

geraintm (5)-

LLamaFluff, clidd, PookyTheMagicalBear, Almost50, VFP

-ELIMINATED

VFP (0)-

RLotus (0)-

clidd (3)-

geraintm, Titus, Flea The Magician

(E-2)

LlamaFluff (0)-

Almost50 (0)-

Not Voting (0)-

With

9

alive, it takes

5

to Eliminate.

Deadline is

(expired on 2021-04-11 19:00:00)

- Apr 11th 19:00 GMT

VC 4.03

Titus (4)-

VFP, clidd, RLotus, Titus

-ELIMINATED

Flea The Magician (0)-

VFP (1)-

Flea the Magician

RLotus (0)-

clidd (0)-

LlamaFluff (0)-

Almost50 (0)-

Not Voting (2)-

LlamaFluff, Almost50

With

7

alive, it takes

4

to Eliminate.

Deadline is

(expired on 2021-04-22 18:00:00)

- Apr 22nd 18:00 GMT

In all eliminations town was the first vote, regardless of whether the player being eliminated was town or scum.

Comparatively, scum is afraid to take proactivity in big wagons, especially when they already know that the flip will be town.

Not that this is definitive evidence, but I can also provide examples of other games I played where the same event took place.

[clidd]

And if you look at my interactions with Dk/Lemon, you will also notice that there is no theater involved.

As well as my back and forth with my reads.

[clidd]

Spoiler:

vote count 1.final

with 13 votes in play, it took 7 to make a decision. day 1 ended.

execution

Save The Dragons [7]:

Andresvmb, DkKoba, PookyTheMagicalBear, T3, Salsabil Faria, Asteria, Anya

[HAMMER]

DkKoba [2]:

Robert M Hunter, InsidiousLemons

VFP [2]:

osuka, Andante

Andresvmb [1]:

Save The Dragons

Anya [1]:

VFP

not voting [0]:

mod notes

~ insidiouslemons v/la on the 21st

flavour

This probably spew Andres as town ^

[clidd]

I'm leaning Osuka as the last scum.

But I intend to reread Anya, since Dk and Lemon are paying special attention to her (could be wifom).

[clidd]

Don't worry, I'll get to your elim soon.

[clidd]

We basically elim Dk and then tomorrow it will be a 1v1 between me and Lemon.

[clidd]

Maybe I'll hammer test Osuka today.

[clidd]

Also, rationally I want to execute clidd. Insidious’ hammer is terrible, but they seemed to be efforting. What I’m really trying to figure out is why did the Town gun think that a wagon that would theoretically contain the rest of the guns made sense as a wagon yesterday. Like that was truly idiotic.

I don't get why it's "idiotic".

[clidd]

You had absolutely no influence on the game and your day-play was poor (if town), so I don't understand why you feel entitled to criticize.

[clidd]

It's not the first time that I have seen you complaining about something and this is not just attributed to the current game.

[clidd]

If you invested more time in correcting your communication problems and less time commenting on immutable past details of others, you would have no problem having your voice/opinion heard.

[clidd]

Anyways,

VOTE: Dkkoba

[clidd]

Maybe I'll hammer test Osuka today.

Nvm

[clidd]

I mean, if you're town and want to vote me, it's fine. We're going to lose, but considering that I had control of the game for two days and was unable to convert it in a town advantage due to the deficiency of my scumreads, a BoP would be fair as a vote justification.

[clidd]

It's not like you can magically interpret my alignment without the bias of me leading elims on town wagons and Salsabil's behavior around the role/gun situation. Judging by the information available, it's quite understandable to see the scum!Clidd scenario with more emphasis, even though it's wrong.

[clidd]

I don't think I necessarily regret any action I've taken after replacing in. Although the pushes were not very accurate, the internal process I used to get to them (T3/Asteria) made sense to me in the period before the flip, and it's likely that I would take the same action if I went back in time without the knowledge I have now. So, yeah, unlucky game.

[clidd]

If you want to prolong the game and hit scum, however, regardless of your read on me/Lemon, Dk is the best choice for today.

Scum!Clidd scenarios work better with scum!Dk than scum!Lemon, and the same applies to scum!Lemon.

[clidd]

It's likely that Lemon will win the 1v1, as I do not feel energetic to gladiate (and he, to some extent, deserves the victory for the effort applied throughout the game), but the above suggestion at least will not prolong the suffering of Vfp (considering that he will be killed during the night) and will not have to decide on D5.

[clidd]

Alternatively, we can use the time available to try to discuss, but I don't think it will be productive.

Dk will remain on the shallow postage approach to try to convey the image of genuineness, while Lemon will limit himself to long and political postings.

[clidd]

you and clidd are confscum fmpov.

i'm not really scared of a clidd quick/miselim, since it's pretty much unthinkable to me that he's town given the circumstances

Be careful, you are forgetting the intensity of your previous instance. When emulating a perspective as scum it's important to write down exactly what you should and should not be aware of. If I were in a better position, I would immediately have identified a perspective slip and you would lose the advantage you have acquired so far (this is a tip for your scumgame, btw). Confscum is confscum and not "unthinkable".

[clidd]

I'll give 24 hours for our VTs to post and help Vfp before starting my hammer test.

[clidd]

If they post, it's fine, I won't do it.

[clidd]

Anya is like on god level of solving if town (which I do think that she is).

[clidd]

It's not my wish, what gave you such idea?