Mini Normal 2232 -ENDGAME

[Andresvmb]

I’m Town.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: GrandpaMo

[Andresvmb]

Nice there’s some activity. I’ll catch up in a few hours - got some work to get through still.

[Andresvmb]

I’m Town.

That's what scum would say.

Sure. It’s also what Town would say since, you know, I’m Town.

[Andresvmb]

Hey Jolyne

[Andresvmb]

Hahaha yeah, good talk.

[Andresvmb]

So you’re an Informed IC? I have to say, I’m a bit terrified of the potential for Scum shenanigans. If this game actually was mountainous with 2 Scum, it would be horribly unbalanced. At least to me it would. That’s what, 4 mis-executions before you get to ELo? There’s no way.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway, I’m going to say Kazyan is Town. So perhaps let’s not execute there. Nathann is maybe Town but probably too early for that read and seems competent.

[Andresvmb]

Yeah you're right.

Okay I'm gonna try to go to bed it's past five am. Take this please.

VOTE: Geraintm

Have you played with geraintm before?

[Andresvmb]

Yeah you're right.

Okay I'm gonna try to go to bed it's past five am. Take this please.

VOTE: Geraintm

Have you played with geraintm before?

Nope.

That might explain it.

Expect nothing much useful out of geraintm D1. If you look at them like that, maybe it’ll help alleviate some of the Scum pings you’re getting from the slot.

[Andresvmb]

And I don’t say that because I’m trying to bash them. geraintm refuses to place much in the form of a vote that makes much sense D1, tries not to get into debates about reads, relies heavily on voting history for their commentary, and can be completely stubborn. We also don’t tend to read each other correctly so there’s that too (geraintm heavily Scum Read me as Town once, I did the same in a different game and I was wrong).

[Andresvmb]

That’s my recollection at least.

[Andresvmb]

this is day 1 - i promise you you will hate nearly everything i post today.

And they’re also hinting at it here.

Having said all that, they can be good at keeping score of how votes develop. And I don’t see them as a bad player by any means. D1 they’re an easy target though and I’ve seen Scum try and take advantage of that, that’s all.

[Andresvmb]

Was gonna complain about how this is boring and it's been like a whole two hours with only two posts but like half of you are asleep right?

This entrance pinged me. For what it’s worth.

[Andresvmb]

I kinda feel like Alice is TMIing her partner and that Jolyene's clue about scum shitting themselves implies jolyene knows something that jo thinks that scum also know, like maybe a special kind of traitor.

If that's the case I'd hazard a guess that "our mob" was not a typo but was in fact a traitor crumb and geraintm voting me is chainsawing for Margot

Another case cracked by bdsm_ultimate_detective

I don’t know that I understand everything that is in this post. I almost want to completely ignore it because trying to decipher this is giving me a headache.

[Andresvmb]

How do you TMI your Scum Partner this early? And how is a typo (“mob” instead of “mod”) actually a clue for a Traitor in any reasonable context? What is this thought process?

[Andresvmb]

DW just plainly stating that these are Town thoughts is ridiculous. In fact it gives me bad vibes. Why wouldn’t you question the content first, and then perhaps say something like “this is so paranoid, it’s probably coming from Town?”

[Andresvmb]

Margot didnt actually repeat your joke, so this feels like working backwards from Margot being scum.

They didn’t directly repeat the “joke”, but they both called me Scum (or otherwise implied it) for plainly stating that I am Town. Isn’t that the point? That’s what this is talking about right?

[Andresvmb]

You can TMI your partner this early by latching on to something insignificant that they did and scumreading them for it.

What? Hahaha I’m sorry but I just disagree. Why is this not just standard Scum trying to make a mountain out of a molehill to justify a bad read? It’s the TMI part of your argument I’m getting totally stuck on. If there’s 2 Scum, my instinct tells me that they’re not doing what you’re looking for here.

[Andresvmb]

You can TMI your partner this early by latching on to something insignificant that they did and scumreading them for it.

What? Hahaha I’m sorry but I just disagree. Why is this not just standard Scum trying to make a mountain out of a molehill to justify a bad read? It’s the TMI part of your argument I’m getting totally stuck on. If there’s 2 Scum, my instinct tells me that they’re not doing what you’re looking for here.

I didnt know there were 2 scum when I made that post

Okay but assume this has the standard 3 then. I still don’t think Scum’s first instinct is to blow up their Partner by highlighting something small they did. I just… don’t get why that’s your first instinct.

[Andresvmb]

it didnt seem to me that it was the same thing. Similar, but not the same, and taking and calling it the same pinged me. Did they feel the same to you?

The end read and push were the same so yeah, I did basically take it as the same. I don’t know why that would seem such an unreasonable way of summarizing the posts highlighting my entrance.

[Andresvmb]

You can TMI your partner this early by latching on to something insignificant that they did and scumreading them for it.

What? Hahaha I’m sorry but I just disagree. Why is this not just standard Scum trying to make a mountain out of a molehill to justify a bad read? It’s the TMI part of your argument I’m getting totally stuck on. If there’s 2 Scum, my instinct tells me that they’re not doing what you’re looking for here.

I didnt know there were 2 scum when I made that post

Okay but assume this has the standard 3 then. I still don’t think Scum’s first instinct is to blow up their Partner by highlighting something small they did. I just… don’t get why that’s your first instinct.

Because Alice's reasoning to sus Margot looked fake, and Margot's entrance looked scummy. 2 SRs, one sussing the other for what looks like a fake reason, hence it's a TMI

Okay I mean haha I don’t think you’ve caught the two Scum here so, yeah no.

[Andresvmb]

Here’s where I’m struggling DW. Sure, perhaps it’s a Town thought process. No issue there. But you put no effort into understanding what the hell was even being said. And from my humble perspective, it reads somewhat outlandish. It’s out there. Writing down that a typo (which really is the simplest explanation since someone else immediately interpreted it that way before the clarification came) was actually a Traitor crumb is a

real

stretch. But you didn’t even acknowledge that. It’s just bizarre to me.

[Andresvmb]

anyone know if our mob does this sort of thing on a regular basis?

Who's the "our mob"?

Our moderator

anyone know if our mob does this sort of thing on a regular basis?

Who's the "our mob"?

yes, moderator, sorry typed too quickly. like, i know what an innocent child is but a day zero one i've not seen before. it is unusual enough that i wondered if the moderator was known for weird roles

In fact, Kyouko did! I mean, what?!

[Andresvmb]

I’m so confused.

[Andresvmb]

Like do you think the second paragraph is scummy? Weird, sure, but it isn't scummy. And the first paragraph just screams good thought process so I vibe with it.

I’m having a hard time believing you here. You think the second paragraph, which transparently follows from the conclusion in the first paragraph, is weird but not Scummy, but think the first paragraph is a good Town thought process? And all this after you didn’t make any specific distinction between the two paragraphs when you first made a comment on the post?

[Andresvmb]

And no I don’t think the second paragraph is necessarily Scummy. But I don’t think any of it is remotely correct hahaha

[Andresvmb]

and that Jolyene's clue about scum shitting themselves implies jolyene knows something that jo thinks that scum also know, like maybe a special kind of traitor.

Tell me how this is helpful to the Town. If I picked this out, in that I thought the IC is hinting at something that might be useful later, but not stating it directly, then why clarify it without asking first? You’ll also notice that from some commentary that came in later, that it’s just wrong.

[Andresvmb]

The only thing you could maybe agree with is that Alice was TMI’ing their Partner. And like I’ve already stated, I don’t understand why that’s the first conclusión someone arrives at.

[Andresvmb]

I clearly don’t think the content is AI here. If I did, I would be voting Kyouko, since I so thoroughly disagree.

[Andresvmb]

If it is wrong, what does that mean to you? I feel like you're going in circles with lines of questioning that don't lead to anything useful. Mostly rhetorical questions, and you're entirely focused on me and dwlee - why do you TR kazlan?

Why do you think I’m going in circles? I’m questioning DW’s thoughts and conclusions based on the one post of yours I think is all wrong. Why is that circular? And most of my questions aren’t rhetorical. You think they’re going nowhere because you TR DW.

[Andresvmb]

you're entirely focused on me and dwlee - why do you TR kazlan?

What you’re implying here is just false, but you do you.

I TR Kazyan for 64 (just seemed a bit bad for Scum), but now I’m realizing it might have been said sarcastically, in which case I can’t say I have a good reason for it.

[Andresvmb]

Did you read 224?

What do you think the answer to this is?

[Andresvmb]

you're entirely focused on me and dwlee - why do you TR kazlan?

What you’re implying here is just false, but you do you.

I TR Kazyan for 64 (just seemed a bit bad for Scum), but now I’m realizing it might have been said sarcastically, in which case I can’t say I have a good reason for it.

And early reads lists can be done by either alignment, so I’m not putting too much stock in that just yet. I would tend to lean positively on it, but it’s not a big plus or anything.

[Andresvmb]

this is what I mean by going in circles with Andre's. I dont think the questions he's asking are meant to sort me; it doesn't seem like there's any good faith there.

Look I’m going to be direct. I thought your idea that it was a Traitor crumb was paranoid, and most likely incorrect, so I wanted to challenge it. I didn’t like DW just saying it was a Town thought process, and completely ignoring the content. DW is probably right in that you’re likely Town because when you were Scum you were happy to ignore me and just call me Town, and now you’re happy to wrongly say I have bad faith because I thought your idea was bad. You can’t read me for shit at least we know that.

[Andresvmb]

Do you have a read on Kazyan outside of 64?

Their readslist seemed fine, but I do agree with (I think it was) you when you pointed out that the vote didn’t match the strongest SR. That seemed interesting.

[Andresvmb]

And I'm kind of weirded out at your question later that Dwlee should've made a distinction between the two paragraphs. Do you think Dwlee is scummy for not having done that?

I think it’s Scummy that DW called a whole post Towny thoughts, was challenged on the content of the post they said contained a Towny thought process (even though clearly they don’t think all of the content makes sense), and then narrowed the scope of their comment to the first paragraph when the second paragraph clearly follows from the first (and said the second paragraph was NAI). What I guess I’m saying is that we could be seeing fake reasoning for a read (that I think is correct, funny enough). It just seemed like a really superficial read to me.

Look I want to figure out who is Town and who is Scum. Of course. But part of this is also to try and figure out who I can also somewhat rely on to complement my view of the game. If I’m going wrong, I’m more likely to change course and correct myself if I can trust that (i) someone else is Town

and

(ii) that I can trust their opinion.

[Andresvmb]

Geraintm also gives good vibes.

Can you try to verbalize why?

[Andresvmb]

Why say more word when few do trick

Okay.

[Andresvmb]

@Jolyne I’m thinking Enchant is Scum here. They’ve pulled this nonsense before as Scum if I remember correctly. At least it’s worth pushing. Also, I think ignoring DGB’s reads makes sense :shrug: I’m not sure I would go as far as to policy any slot btw, but if I read slowly and actually find them Scummy I’ll let you know.

[Andresvmb]

Where you ask what’s up and just avoid actually speaking about the game or provide any positive contribution at all.

[Andresvmb]

I will scumread whoever I want to scumread.

You can absolutely do this. But see here’s the problem. You’re wrong. And you completely fail to take into account the views of players that are reading closely and have demonstrated competence in other games, like Koba. Which is why I think your reads should be discarded.

Also, I’ve been Town 16 games in a row in this forum, and have yet to play Scum. In fact I think it’s very likely you have no idea how I play as Scum, but should have a very good grasp for how to confidently pick out when I’m Town. The fact that you think you can confidently say that I’m Scum is aggravating, particularly when I’m actually present in this game.

As a side note, I purposefully decided to take a break because I was not contributing in the way that I liked the last few games, and now that you can see I’m not just lurking D1 out or coming in at odd times, you still get me wrong. And okay it’s D1, but you’re pretending like your read is rock solid. It’s horrendous.

[Andresvmb]

The reason I out this now is because I realize I'm slowly getting tunnelled on that read, and could probably use a sanity check. And you were the only one (I think) to express a read on them earlier, and I'm gonna cheat slightly and sheep our IC's read on you for the time being, so. What do you think?

I’ll re-read the ISO and tell you what I think, but I think the nuance you’re showing in your analysis is strongly Town indicative. So I’m going to try and give you my honest opinion.

[Andresvmb]

Andre confscum, i am not gonna change vote ty.

@Jolyne, is there anything else you need?

[Andresvmb]

Andre confscum, i am not gonna change vote ty.

@Jolyne, is there anything else you need?

Ok mafia

I’m Scum because I think that your activity is more often than not Scum indicative, and you’re choosing to tunnel me when I point it out? Either this is really basic Scum play or you’re just bad. Which is it?

[Andresvmb]

Is that a real read?

[Andresvmb]

The reason I out this now is because I realize I'm slowly getting tunnelled on that read, and could probably use a sanity check. And you were the only one (I think) to express a read on them earlier, and I'm gonna cheat slightly and sheep our IC's read on you for the time being, so. What do you think?

I’ll re-read the ISO and tell you what I think, but I think the nuance you’re showing in your analysis is strongly Town indicative. So I’m going to try and give you my honest opinion.

Okay so I ISO’ed.

I think Kazyan is worth keeping an eye on. They’ve been non confrontational in a way that pings me.

How would I approach a game with a Confirmed Town that’s a strong player and personality, and I’m not being SR? I would try and agree with whatever their view is (provided it isn’t detrimental to my position in the game), and stay somewhat away from the action. Some of what Kazyan is doing could be read that way. Look at the vote for DGB, explanation for the Unvote, and subsequent vote for GrandpaMo. If Koba is wrong about GrandpaMo, or say DGB is Town (hard to say what DGB is given their play honestly - I don’t see how skimming the game and making poorly reasoned votes or being a contrarian actually helps you as one of two Scum), then you let them drive the game off a cliff, produce a mis-execution, and you NK them. Another example is the same post you highlighted (about them agreeing with a vote being a good point). So they agree that geraintm’s post is Scummy (otherwise, how is the vote a “good point”), but you immediately turn around and ask the player for an explanation, which you later end up saying “makes sense”. It seems passive.

[Andresvmb]

I'd say that trying to outsmarting the mod isn't helpful, but I might have a skewed perspective here, since my first game in Mafia had an Innocent Child.

Is that was RVS is supposed to do? Huh. Fair, then. I haven't noticed reactions to RVS-voting someone being important, but apparently, voting for myself can get a response too.

In theory, at least. Debatable how well it accomplishes that in practice. Does the response tell you anything?

I thought it might be a little scummy to ask a probing question over something that clearly doesn't matter, but then I realized that a "peck" at someone hasn't historically come from scum in my games--Lunar Martian in Mini Normal 2187, or T3's initial questions in Not Quite Normal Multiball. And then you gave a reasonable answer, so now I'm not getting any scum vibes from you.

whats the good point?

weird - because i have never seen a game with day 1 mod confirmed townie before

A vague "this is weird" suggests that you have more information about the gamestate with which to evaluate it. To me, having an Innocent Child isn't enough to consider this a bizarro world game, but given that your experience is different, your comment makes more sense.

[Andresvmb]

As my last game has just finished, my "weird" comment about day zero IC might make more sense. I was a day 3 IC in it, so to see one in this game that flipped straight away I found odd

Definitely more reasonable in that context, then.

[Andresvmb]

^those are the posts I’m talking about.

[Andresvmb]

I asked about random-ass people to throw Enchant off-script, but the Nixie read seems genuine; if scum were just playing it cool and trying to give real responses, they wouldn't verbally shrug like that.

Judging by Andres's 485, it looks like Scum!Enchant does verbally shrug a lot.

I mean just read this ISO:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=86404&user_select%5 ... 64&start=0
And tell me how many times they post something that you would consider moves the game forward. They were Scum there.

I count at least four times where they ask “What did I miss?”, and have a lot of really bland responses.

Now I will say, them just openly saying “Ok Scum” as a response to my read gives me pause. So I won’t argue here I think for sure that Enchant is Scum or anything of the sort. But if they start skating by, take a closer look.

[Andresvmb]

Alright what i think.

For first, don't talk with me from this position, you are not townleader and i don't fear/care what you talking on me, anime.
For second, my activity is last concern you need to have as town, you need to think if i am mafia, not if i am lurker. If you think i am mafia, i wondering why you didn't vote me yet so take your chance right now.
For third, i will be active as i see fit and in my powers to do, i am not going promise you anything.

I’m giving my opinion, not pretending to be a Town Leader. And how is being a lurker helpful to the Town again?

I’ll vote whenever the fuck I please, just as much as you seem to be saying that you’ll contribute whenever you want to. Don’t be a hypocrite. I’m not asking you to promise to do anything. I’m alerting the rest of the players here that if you start saying you’re bored or don’t want to read, and constantly ask for others to fill you in, it isn’t necessarily Town!you just not caring. You’ve displayed that style as Scum already.

[Andresvmb]

Alright what i think.

For first, don't talk with me from this position, you are not townleader and i don't fear/care what you talking on me, anime.
For second, my activity is last concern you need to have as town, you need to think if i am mafia, not if i am lurker. If you think i am mafia, i wondering why you didn't vote me yet so take your chance right now.
For third, i will be active as i see fit and in my powers to do, i am not going promise you anything.

I’m giving my opinion, not pretending to be a Town Leader. And how is being a lurker helpful to the Town again?

I’ll vote whenever the fuck I please, just as much as you seem to be saying that you’ll contribute whenever you want to. Don’t be a hypocrite. I’m not asking you to promise to do anything. I’m alerting the rest of the players here that if you start saying you’re bored or don’t want to read, and constantly ask for others to fill you in, it isn’t necessarily Town!you just not caring. You’ve displayed that style as Scum already.

I am not to you, mafia.

Okay I’ll stop responding to this terrible play. Feel free to carry on doing nothing.

[Andresvmb]

Oh sorry, if you are town it's not like you catched atleast one mafia yet. Is this count as terrible?

You’re only engaging with negative reads of your slot in a childish way, and not saying much else. Your play is objectively detrimental to the Town. Whether it’s coming from Scum is hard to tell.

And I’ll let my track record speak for itself. I don’t have to defend my play to you.

[Andresvmb]

Andres, I believe 512 is aimed at me, considering the very creative jab at my avatar.

Yeah I realize this now. They also responded that their retort wasn’t aimed at me (though they missed a word) while calling me Scum.

[Andresvmb]

I know how you play as town, and so far, this isn't it.

I always pretend my reads are rock solid. Especially in the first 25 pages

You complain that I scumread you and you try to badger me to sheep Koba, that's a HELL NO and a HARD PASS.

Look this is pretty simple - your read of my slot is bad. So I am appealing to you to reconsider by asking that you listen to a player that not only is cleared, but has a good handle of how I play Town. You’re refusing because you think you are better at reading me. But you’re not, and therein lies the problem.

And I’m not asking you to sheep Koba generally btw. But to perhaps listen to what they have to say about my slot. This will progress better if you don’t give Scum cover to do what they want.

[Andresvmb]

Now that I'm not just grumping about fluffy posts, there doesn't appear to be anything scummy in this ISO. UNVOTE: GrandpaMo

I don’t understand why you’re backing away from a fight so easily.

[Andresvmb]

Now that I'm not just grumping about fluffy posts, there doesn't appear to be anything scummy in this ISO. UNVOTE: GrandpaMo

I don’t understand why you’re backing away from a fight so easily.

And

there's

the double bind I predicted, kicking in right on schedule. Fantastic.

It’s not a double bind.

Look at DGB’s reaction when I confronted them about their read of my slot. Or Enchant’s for that matter. I’m not saying these slots are Town btw (DGB I would argue is probably Town, Enchant is null / Scum Lean to me, and in any case, I don’t think they’re both Scum who have decided to push my slot at the same time). But your reaction sticks out in that you have seemed not to really believe in any one push you’re making. I would even say that You are consistently downplaying your pushes / reads. GrandpaMo’s ISO is not great, as Nathann clearly pointed out. But you arrive at this conclusion that there’s nothing Scummy there and just Unvote. I don’t get it.

[Andresvmb]

Andre is over here arguing with people for not deferring to Jolyene, and GMo is arguing with me for the opposite. You two, work that out with each other.

I don’t have to work anything out with GrandpaMo - I haven’t even read their ISO just yet, though Nathann’s points seem reasonable to me (despite that hedge that it could be Town that believes their contributions so far merit a Town read). I do expect I’ll have to make up my own mind about the slot soon - GMo is seeing pressure and it’s definitely worthwhile to take a closer look.

[Andresvmb]

also i will probably post a serious post sometime later today as i see there was page 3 full of info

Everyone, shush about the IC bs. It's a normal game, ICs have set rules and it has absolutely exactly nothing to do with anything. It's a mod confirm not some fake news. I didn't expect to have to explain why fox news is a bad news source to people on this website ffs.

Alice, dwlee, geraintm are the three scum. We can pack it up.

ger is engaging in an inane conversation with no relevance but originally framed it as having relevance. Alice is trying to make friends and shoot for cred off it which is text book scum stuff. Dwlee is just being dumb, probably not actually scum, but best guess so far.

Damn knowing that there is 2 maf alive -- this makes Nixie more town here due to townslipping.

2 mafia means two things, either mafia is very strong

or town is very weak (almost to mountainous)

can someone give me a tldr im lazy rn

91, 115, 116 and 311 are as bad a sequence as you’ll find in a game of Mafia. The “I’m bored” together with the “I’ll make a serious post later” to the “I’m lazy” is outright Scummy. Those posts alone merit a negative Lean. How you can read those and come out with the conclusion that there’s nothing Scummy in that ISO is beyond me.

[Andresvmb]

^@Kazyan

[Andresvmb]

And it’s not like this takes tremendous skill either. That’s just blatant fluff. If you don’t know how to present a point of view without giving yourself up as Scum, you often see stuff like that. Now, I’m not saying this is bulletproof or anything - I’ll keep reading. But I don’t like that you just backtracked on your read *after* having read that, and just failed to properly account for it.

And even if you’re wrong or don’t have a whole lot of confidence in your reads, putting them out there and your thought process is helpful. If only in that people can point out where you’re going wrong and you can have a genuine conversation.

[Andresvmb]

looking back, i sounded so fucking scummy in that xD

This admission alone, together with the fake outrage about being SR after, should in most instances get you executed. This is almost transparently Scummy in my view. You get all offended that people might lean negatively on you, even though you admit to having been Scummy? What is happening?

[Andresvmb]

I haven't gone into my full effort mode

I suggest you try to do this, because your ISO is pretty sad right now.

[Andresvmb]

I am just playing the best of my ability as town towards my wincon helping in any way possible

How can you say this when bashing someone SR’ing you, and at a different recent time, say you haven’t gone into your full effort mode? And yeah no shit you haven’t gone into full effort mode - there’s basically a few reads thrown out there, little evaluation, some really basic commentary about setup, some speculation about a rebel mechanic that I have no idea how Town would ever be aware of, even if it was true (and I suspect that given the reality that this is a Normal game, completely ludicrous), and some outrage at getting pushed. So no, you’re not playing to the best of your ability by your own admission, and certainly not by any objective standard.

[Andresvmb]

Btw I’ll correct myself - GMo never claimed to be bored. I’m not sure why that was buried in my brain. The rest of the post still stands.

[Andresvmb]

I think {Enchant, Ythan, GrandpaMo} is where my vote will land today most likely, unless something changes. I am not getting negative vibes from Kazyan’s last set of posts. @Koba you tell me what you see, but they just seem to be a hesitant player. I’m not finding it Scummy.

@DW, talk to me about Ythan some more.

[Andresvmb]

^or Nathann rather. DW you can chime in too why not.

[Andresvmb]

I know anti town behavior isn't automatically scum you clown but it's the best thing I have to go on right now and it does stick out to me more than anything else going on.

If I had to guess, I actually would say this is coming from Town. So maybe not Ythan.

[Andresvmb]

Hi DGB.

I noticed you, senpai.

Maybe the real senpai was inside me all along

I also like this joke haha

[Andresvmb]

@Nathann I read Ythan’s ISO (it’s short). I don’t know Ythan’s meta, but I’ll say this - I don’t see them as Scum here. It’s early, the takes are dry, but they seem unconcerned about how others perceive them and seem genuine to me. Not rock solid, can be faked, and I don’t trust all my early reads. But at a gut level, seems like Town.

[Andresvmb]

Thats just his personality in general. He posts the same way in speakeasy lol

Is that a game they were Scum in?

[Andresvmb]

Where you ask what’s up and just avoid actually speaking about the game or provide any positive contribution at all.

It's not like you want to ask something from me, or so on.

This is some low low low hanging fruit

I’ll just highlight this for the future - if Enchant flips Scum, then Ythan should permanently be in the POE.

[Andresvmb]

I want to see more takes from @Nixie.

[Andresvmb]

So who are you the one to judge what another person's anaylsis is there to tell?

Because I can read.

[Andresvmb]

When I have multiple times -- in which I responded and never got a response back -- explained to them.

You’ve mostly not explained your logic. That’s a bit the point.

[Andresvmb]

Okay this is taken out of context. If you look at the timeslot for these specific posts that were all posted in the beginning with it being my 2-10 starting posts.

I quoted your posts without modifying them, and they’re in the correct sequence. How is it out of context? Scum can have trouble engaging with the game at the beginning. Once lines start to get drawn, it’s easier to engage.

[Andresvmb]

All you literally did was ISO me >>> picked four random quotes >>> "x and x and x and x" -- These are all scummy quotes, *insert word from quote* this is scummy. why would town do this. this is scummy so why did you not find anything scummy in his iso.

I appeal to the intelligence of my fellow players for them to judge if this is all that I have done.

[Andresvmb]

And what is this babble about nobody having a good Scum case? If all you have as an argument is that no one has successfully shown you’re Scum beyond a reasonable doubt, then sure. It isn’t particularly convincing - we make points and we see how they fare and particularly D1 you take a bit of a shot in the dark.

[Andresvmb]

Second part -- I never got offended one bit. This contradicts because you talk about my playstyle being all laid back and not caring or "bored" then you proceed to say I am offended in which implies a defense.

This is just… a stretch to put it kindly. I didn’t make a comment about your play style when quoting your initial posts (I don’t know how you play generally), and I already corrected the record about you claiming to be bored. I never said you were laid back. So not sure where you’re getting the contradiction. And my statement about you getting “offended” was clearly an interpretation of your long post criticizing Kazyan for how they were approaching your slot.

[Andresvmb]

Second part -- I never got offended one bit. This contradicts because you talk about my playstyle being all laid back and not caring or "bored" then you proceed to say I am offended in which implies a defense. What else am I going to do not going to get offended when people are scumreading me for NO reason. Till this point -- no one has gave a good scumcase.

And btw. I ask that my fellow players help spot the contradiction here.

[Andresvmb]

Your claim about not being offended when people SR you, and then proceeding to capitalize the NO basically negates what you’re saying.

I do actually tend to get annoyed when people read me incorrectly as Town, particularly when they’re way off and want to seem authoritative. So I’m not suggesting that you’re Scum for it. But you should at the very least try not to undermine your point in the same paragraph. It makes it hard to take anything else you’re saying seriously.

[Andresvmb]

Okay relax buddy, you do realize this MOSTLY ALL was in the beginning of day one (in MY RVS period). Second part, I justified it by saying me talkin about game mechanics // game setup is me trying to actively game solve.

Talking about game mechanics in the way that you have isn’t game solving. I don’t mean to burst your bubble, but it’s blatantly obvious in a game this large and with an Informed IC claiming that there are 2 Scum that we’re probably facing a stacked Scum Team, or that the Town are weak. These aren’t earth shattering contributions.

[Andresvmb]

In any case, you seem to be heavily implying that I’m Scum, and your reasoning is that I’m framing you or something. Is this a correct interpretation of some of your content?

[Andresvmb]

Kazyan's frustration is town.

Why

I vibe with it.

GrandpaMo is town, actually. I vibe with his frustration, too.

So who are your Scum Reads now then? Since you seemed to think I was bussing my buddy with my initial vote.

[Andresvmb]

Conclusion: Idk if this town motivated or what. I already have a gamesolve, and yes I kinda did not like that person just gave up the push on me. It felt awkward and I do not know how to feel about that.

Let me guess though - something like Me and Kazyan, with DW as a backup?

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Enchant

[Andresvmb]

That table by Kazyan isn’t all that accurate but I’m not currently inclined to correct it.

[Andresvmb]

You’re being obtuse and annoying. Even if I could figure out exactly what alignment you are I don’t think I would care.

[Andresvmb]

Yeah that’s exactly what I’m trying to do. That’s why I haven’t bothered reading at all and keep asking that others ask me questions or force me to contribute.

[Andresvmb]

I’m being sarcastic while describing your play. But obviously you didn’t get that.

[Andresvmb]

GrandpaMo gave me good vibes with their posting yesterday so I don’t want to execute there anymore - it’s probably wrong.

@Koba, can you take another look at DW, see if you agree with GMo? I know you thought DW was Town earlier but I wasn’t getting the same vibes so we had a difference of opinion there.

[Andresvmb]

@Enchant maybe stop acting like a child and you would come across better. You’re never going to convince anyone of your point of view if this is how you present it. Never mind that you’re just way wrong.

[Andresvmb]

Okay I hard claim masons with DGB - Can you confirm?

You want me to believe that in a game with an IC and a maximum of 2 Scum as Confirmed by the IC, that we have masons too?

This seems like a joke.

[Andresvmb]

no you dont

The pressure on GMo had diminished considerably - why out this now? I would have done it earlier if I wanted to do this to refocus the wagon elsewhere. This makes no sense to me.

[Andresvmb]

You confused Masons with Neighbors?

[Andresvmb]

no you dont

The pressure on GMo had diminished considerably - why out this now? I would have done it earlier if I wanted to do this to refocus the wagon elsewhere. This makes no sense to me.

I was going to -- I was trying to soft it desperatly bad. And I thought somehow I can avoid being the main focus and out it in a peaceful environment like right now.

No I mean it’s a positive not a negative that you didn’t use it to diminish pressure on your slot, but that assumed Masons. Neighbors is irrelevant to your alignment, and frankly I’m inclined to want to execute in the Neighborhood since the Scum don’t otherwise have daychat, and that would be a clever way to have them communicate once the one Town in the hood is executed / eliminated.

[Andresvmb]

You confused Masons with Neighbors?

Yes. I wish I can link you to the game where I did before, it was a discord hybrid closed game.

They serve some of the same function -- besides me thinking masons could be mafia alligned lol. But now I realized masons is an ACTUAL role and not a modifier to be used interchangeably.

I really do think that the distance between Masons and Neighbors is massive.

[Andresvmb]

We know there’s only 2 Scum, but the Neighborhood allegedly has 3 players. So that’s not a fake claim.

[Andresvmb]

It’s also a stupid fake claim anyway.

@Koba, I think the clumsiness behind the reveal is more often than not Town, but you tell me what you think.

[Andresvmb]

It’s also a stupid fake claim anyway.

@Koba, I think the clumsiness behind the reveal is more often than not Town, but you tell me what you think.

What...?

I am arguing you aren’t lying, because you would have to be stupid to lie in this way and I don’t believe that. I also think you’ve been confusing / clumsy, because you confused Neighbors and Masons. And it’s interesting on top of that because the IC also has knowledge that there’s no daytalk (and the Rules indicate that there’s no daytalk by default).

[Andresvmb]

Nathann is hinting at you potentially being Scum and having screwed up your fake claim - I am quashing that. And you wouldn’t have (technically) been able to coordinate it, since you can’t discuss with your Scum Partner. It’s just all around unlikely, and I think it hints at you being Town. Having said that, I don’t understand you hinting at some sort of weird mechanic D2, and I want to understand that better, because alignment changes for example are decidedly not Normal for instance.

[Andresvmb]

Also, i have feeling we have third party (i mean stab-stabby one), otherwise it's unbalanced.

Can't have a Serial Killer in a Mini Normal, so no.

Yeah this is correct - I think there’s a minimum number of players required for it and a Mini Normal doesn’t fit. But I wouldn’t be totally surprised about the presence of say a Survivor role or something of the sort.

[Andresvmb]

Actually, aren’t these games not supposed to be multi-ball?

[Andresvmb]

I also claim to have TMI of something to be revealed day 2 -- hence my weird specc shit. The closest thing I can think of is another IC that reveals on day 2 etc.

Can you clarify what this is? If it's not anti-Town to do so.

And I believe Mini Normals can only have Town and Mafia.

Yeah I remember this being correct.

Anyway, can somebody do the work and tell me if either Titus or DGB have hinted at being in a Neighborhood at all?

[Andresvmb]

Wait -- I think I got it confused. I am in a hood with Titus and DGB... and we think titus is scum.

Umm what? I was given a non neighbor role. Checking with the mod.

Wouldn’t you have access to the Neighborhood chat?

What the hell is happening? Haha

[Andresvmb]

Survivor is not normal.

Before playing here I used to play games with some funky roles. I need to start playing more Theme games.

[Andresvmb]

I’m not going to ask the specifics of your role - at this stage, probably anti-Town.

@GMo, please confirm with the Mod. Otherwise, we’re going to have to execute between you and Titus.

[Andresvmb]

There's got to be a mod error somewhere.

Occam’s razor points to GMo having made the error, not the Mod.

[Andresvmb]

Okay I hard claim masons with DGB - Can you confirm?

I’m going to be honest, looking back, I think this is Scum.

The first post declaring a Role limits the claim to DGB.

[Andresvmb]

This play makes no sense, but seems meant to bury Titus in some fashion. I was deeply skeptical of the claim of Masons given the game, and the shift of role probably makes sense in that context.

Also, hard claiming and then lying about it have earned from me at least a hard vote.

VOTE: GrandpaMo

[Andresvmb]

Andre // Nathan confirm themselves harder as town through the digestion and analysis.

If you're town, Andres trying to force the elimination between us two is scummy.

How? I’m seeing literally contradicting claims. This reaction is literally silly.

[Andresvmb]

You have to realize it from a town mindset. Step back and try again then understand what I did what i did. You even admitted it being justified to bury Titus in some fashion.

You lied while claiming a Role to bury a player you Scum Read. For reasons I’m not going to get into, I’m having a massive allergic reaction to it.

[Andresvmb]

Let's kill kazyan

VOTE: Kazyan

Pedit: it's okay if you wanna bring it up Andre's lmao

No I really don’t want to open that back up again.

[Andresvmb]

I told them in mason chat, that titus is town but they are voting them. So if you want to carry the weight that either of us are scum, you can drop it now.

Yeah fine whatever. I confused you with DGB on who was holding the read. Claiming to be Masons with someone, while

hardclaiming

, and then retracting - I just want to nuke you for it.

[Andresvmb]

We don’t need to see you lie to generate conversation - I can’t trust a single claim you make the rest of the game since you openly lied about your role while hard claiming to make a point. What the point was I don’t give a shit about. I’m not a player that wants to nuke whoever lies, but some of this shit is just really annoying.

[Andresvmb]

That is clearly what you are doing right now, and it is kinda of an annoying take you are taking.

PLEASE try to demonstrate how I’m doing whatever you just did.

[Andresvmb]

If you are town -- you are costing us the game because you are coming from a confbias view knowing that I am scum for doing this.

This is just absurd. I’m voting you - I’m not costing us the game, and I have clearly given you the benefit of the doubt and not just SR you throughout. I don’t know if it’s shit play, or what, but maybe stop accusing players of succumbing to confirmation bias when they SR you when you do dumb shit like put forth a fake claim while stating that it’s a hard claim, only to retract to get a reaction.

[Andresvmb]

I am starting to doubt you are town now.You are just using surface level logic to scumread me.

What surface level logic? I am applying somewhat of a rule here that I have for myself. If you transparently lie in a way that’s anti-Town and are caught, I will push for your execution. I’ve done it repeatedly, and Koba can confirm because I did it to them in a different game. You easily could be doing this to make yourself look better because you keep making the point that you’re Town because Scum would never do what you just did, practically in the same page of whatever it is you did. Everyone should ignore your disclaimer because it almost seems like you’re purposefully doing something only to then say that Scum would never do such a thing. If I hammered without waiting for a Claim or checking the vote count, and then immediately said oops I’m sorry but I’m not Scum since Scum would never do that, you wouldn’t be suspicious? It totally invalidates the point because it makes it evident that you clearly understand how your actions could be perceived, and are taking advantage of that fact.

[Andresvmb]

I know I'm supposing GrandpaMo town here but I don't feel like scum do that.

Shocking that this is your reaction.

[Andresvmb]

I’m not going to respond to your insistence about defending a transparently stupid play.

You retracted it because part of your Claim was immediately contradicted by another player. You had no choice. Had you try to modify your claim again, and not admitted to lying, you would have been executed.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t need to adapt my play - you need to not lie in completely unnecessary ways for no reason at all. This isn’t hard man what the hell.

[Andresvmb]

I'm saying your SR on him is misplaced (not necessarily wrong, but if it's right, it's for NAI reasons) if you are town. If you're scum then his conversation doesnt really matter

I’m going to say this for after the game, for the future. Ignore for now and then come back to this later.

If I’m Scum, and I see Town!GrandpaMo lie about their role (or make a Claim that’s really hard to believe or at a weird time), I don’t question it, and I certainly don’t push them. I laugh. Because the only thing that it achieves is paranoia and more suspicion. And it creates a massive distraction. GrandpaMo thinks that their ability to get a reaction and potentially read one slot better or whatever is more valuable than Town cohesion, or for others to read them correctly (or at least believe that they’re generally acting in good faith and won’t do stupid things). That’s why I’m getting annoyed. There’s an arrogance to the play that I despise.

[Andresvmb]

So this should make me town then, no? If you are town and I am town then scum is just laughing in their pants, doing what you have said scum would do.

Don’t respond to a post clearly not meant for you.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t need to adapt my play - you need to not lie in completely unnecessary ways for no reason at all. This isn’t hard man what the hell.

You are literally manipulating context. And have lost this 1v1 -- and now referring to me just lying. You even end up never explaining why you truly scumread me but just refer to "I am not responding to this" and all other BS. You look bad here.

You don’t get to claim that you won an imaginary fight I’m not having, and I don’t think I’m the one who looks bad when you’re the one who lied to make a completely dumb point about there being a difference in view between you and another player, while confusing Neighbors and Masons, and then doubling down on your stupidity by then claiming to be in a Neighborhood with another player who immediately contradicted you.

[Andresvmb]

I haven’t called you stupid. I called your play stupid. Which it is.

[Andresvmb]

while confusing Neighbors and Masons, and then doubling down on your stupidity

i thought this implies you calling me stupid by confusing neighbors / masons lol

It’s not. I don’t claim to have any insight into your general level of intelligence.

[Andresvmb]

Hahaha sure.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Kazyan?

Not sure if I liked their earlier pop-in.

I agree - talk to me about what you’re seeing there. They got called out and immediately produced a response and have somewhat taken a bit of a backseat.

[Andresvmb]

Also just for a suggestion (only if you are town and we could have just been TvT tunneling.), use this time away from me, to really reflect both town / scum motives and come from an unbiased perspective.

I’m not doing anything you suggest - I don’t give a shit about your opinion.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Kazyan

[Andresvmb]

the andres progression looks bad to me. they didn't want to go there, but let themselves get persuaded

This is what happens when you don’t read carefully enough.

My comment had nothing to do with the actual vote. Your interpretation of my progression (which is meh anyway) is based on the faulty assumption that I expressed misgivings about voting Kazyan. I never actually did.

[Andresvmb]

There aren’t enough Scum for the resistance against Kazyan to be fully Scum driven, so I don’t know what to make of this alternative wagon that’s developed on AliceK so quickly.

[Andresvmb]

The only thing I’m finding really fascinating is how much conviction some of Kazyan’s latest reads have versus how unsure they sounded earlier in the day.

[Andresvmb]

I’m going to put the odds of AliceK flipping Scum to be quite low. I’m not all that convinced Scum would avoid the top wagon in the situation they were in and vote DW instead.

[Andresvmb]

andres will shield them anyways bc I know he can read gerain too

I don't need shielding.
Waiting on mod to flip a greenie now and then we can all regroup tomorrow with more info

It’s not shielding per se, but you do need people to be able to read you correctly so we don’t use on of our mis-executions on you since you’re hard to read. Your skepticism of my slot is par for the course for Town!you so I’m leaning positively right now for what it’s worth.

[Andresvmb]

Early reads on Day 1 are uncertain. Shocker.

This is a bad reaction. You started turning against me once the wagon was building on you and I put a vote down for you without fully explaining all of my reasoning, despite all of my other content.

I think you were put in a position were you had to adopt a more confident attitude or die, but I’m suspicious of your evolution.

[Andresvmb]

Its day 1, nothing matters

I never understand this from you but again, nothing I haven’t seen before.

[Andresvmb]

All scums are in this group imo:
<Titus, GrandpaMo, DrippingGoofball, Andresvmb, Dwlee99, Ythan, Enchant>
Im the least confident about GrandpaMo and Ythan, because I skipped a lot of pages due to lack of time during last 3 days and apparently they provided some AI content. I will catch up over the night.

Having said what I said, this is so useless. That’s 7 players out of 12 that could be Scum. What is even the point of verbalizing this?

[Andresvmb]

If I have it right, AliceK was TR’ing {Nathann, Kyouko, geraintm, Kazyan}?

[Andresvmb]

Two consensus TR’s, a difficult to read slot, and the alternative wagon, while leaving everyone else in the POE?

[Andresvmb]

But your reaction sticks out in that you have seemed not to really believe in any one push you’re making.

Well, yeah. I've never once been able to catch scum without a truth wizard holding my hand, and am surrounded by people who keep pushing back against my reads with greater experience and evidence. To present my observations as anything more than "something to consider" would be arrogance, not good play.

As to your only question the only wagon with two votes besides Gramps happens to be those exact two players. On Andres who is posting mad content.

To actually answer you though obviously yes.

Also, should we consolidate wagons?

On second thought this is actually a weird question.

I mean, we have a lot of players who have gone practically silent, so we kinda need a huge majority of active players cooperate to avoid a no-lim today, not just n/2 + 1. VOTE: GrandpaMo. Andre, if you're scum, you're really good at providing scumcases on people.

Kyo, if you're out there, please hammer.

Enchant's play:

1) OMGUSing people who scumread them
2) Getting indignant at any suggestion that 1) is not sufficient

This slot has to go.

Dwlee, explain your unvote. (Nathann doesn't have to; he's town.)

I am going to say - I just think the difference between the way you claim you present your views, and how you’ve proceeded to present them after seeing meaningful pressure, is jarring.

[Andresvmb]

It’s not about being inconsistent - if your defense to the charge that you’re being passive or non-confrontational was genuine, you wouldn’t have changed tack so abruptly.

What I would have expected from your slot under the pressure you’ve faced would be to react in the same way that Italiano did when they were mis-executed D1 in a recent game I was in. Which is basically, for you to continue to flail a bit while being unable to really point the barrel in any particular direction. But you have certainly not done that. You tried aggressively to bury Enchant (first), and now you’re pushing for DW/AliceK as if you had a meaningful degree of certainty that they’re Scum. But it doesn’t flow naturally, and it’s creating all kinds of alarm bells in my head.

[Andresvmb]

Your change of approach could easily be interpreted as you molding your style to diminish the claim that you’re acting a certain way that I expressed I felt was Scummy. Fundamentally, that’s what I’m seeing. We haven’t played before so I just can’t judge this more broadly, and it would help if I had seen you in a game as Town, so I just don’t really know. But I don’t think what I’m saying is totally irrational.

[Andresvmb]

Maybe a dumb question, but what's so bad about yeeting a Vengeful?

Also uh, I think this is kind of a bad time to go hands off...

Well if you think DGB is Town, that alone is probably not good. And clearly, DGB is going to do whatever they want. Depending on who you think they’re most likely to shoot, that could present further complications. Or it could be a successful hero shot and basically condemn the Scum. Just purely probability wise, I’m not so sure Vengeful is Town positive, and I have the same perception (which I’ve consistently expressed) about Vigilantes.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t think a Mafia Vengeful fits within Normal guidelines.

[Andresvmb]

What Vengebait?

What vengeful? Why town have killing potential in 2 scum game?

Koba is saying that DGB’s open attempt at getting executed quickly (they have a post that asks for votes with 6 hours to go, and a few others asking for votes) is confirmation that they’re Vengeful.

[Andresvmb]

Can we speed yeet me?

There's only 6 hours left, most players scumread me and I'm VT.

VOTE: DrippingGoofball

At least we won't be outing PRs for nothing.

I claim for AliceK to claim now.

.

Vote me, scum.

Like these.

[Andresvmb]

I don't want to vote Kazyan because of Obvious Reasons, and I'm still having Townie pings from Alice.

You haven’t been explicit about your reasoning, so I have no idea.

[Andresvmb]

I’ll be back tomorrow. But my pool of suspicious folks hasn’t really changed all that much.

[Andresvmb]

Dwlee crumbed when he confirmed he hardclaimed he saw my post stating that my role cannot interfere with investigations

There has got to be a catch, you can't have an IC and a watcher, that pretty much equates one dead scum.

Unless the Mod is playing mind tricks, I would argue that the Scum very clearly have a Ninja. It’s the fundamental reason why the IC was NK’ed and not a different player - the Scum were completely unafraid of being caught by any sort of action-investigative role, and I’m guessing they deduced (clearly) that the Town don’t have a Jailkeeper in a game with an IC.

Since that dramatically reduces the effectiveness of a Watcher, then I’m willing to believe that the Backup Watcher is a real claim. It’s probably the only PR we have.

Also, I don’t understand the timing exactly. But I’ll read that part again.

[Andresvmb]

Kazyan is putting too much effort for me to think they’re Scum at this point - but that’s superficial.

[Andresvmb]

Now I’ll say this - if DW is Scum, and the Scum have a Ninja, Backup Watcher is a spectacularly safe claim.

[Andresvmb]

Imagine not watching IC as Watcher.

How do you know this didn't happen?

Do you see person screaming "X VISITED JOLUNE"?

I don't see.

There could be ninja and I also don't think everyone checked in yet tbf

Yeah, this is a case for a weak scumslip from Enchant.

Frankly I really don’t like this reaction. I find Enchant more likely to be Town than Scum after they expressed disgust at there potentially being a Watcher, and them possibly not planting themselves on the IC.

[Andresvmb]

Was there a reason you didn't ask me, then?

Btw just to make sure that I respond to everything - you asked me what I thought of your reasoning, and I said that I didn’t know what your reasoning was. Do you expect to ask about everyone’s reasoning for everything? I don’t have time for that haha

[Andresvmb]

^Me to ask*

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Titus

[Andresvmb]

We’re not executing DGB.

[Andresvmb]

Anyone who thinks that the back-end of the Titus wagon should dictate who gets executed today is delusional.

[Andresvmb]

I need to re-read and that’s going to take some time, and I’m just busy today unfortunately.

But if Town wants to rush this to a loss, by all means.

[Andresvmb]

Shocking that GrandpaMo was lying about their role. What else is new.

[Andresvmb]

Also something to note, if I was scum, I wouldn't have retracted and I would have fully went with my claim to just claim someone tracked someone and get a mislynch today.

No you wouldn’t you doofus. You then get executed while leaving your Team in a pinch.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Nathann

[Andresvmb]

Wait, I'm stupid. I was thinking of voting DGB, and then I ended up not doing it, while thinking I did.

VOTE: DGB

That

is Y-2.

Why is DGB Scum?

[Andresvmb]

Do you think DGB as Scum starts asking for votes on them towards the end of D1 and tries to antagonize several players while claiming VT?

[Andresvmb]

I’m going to take a guess and say that the Scum are all in {Kazyan, Nathann, DW}.

That’s my prediction.

From my perspective, there were 4 votes that sat on Kazyan for a while there D1, and it didn’t go over the edge. Instead, AliceK was executed. At least 3 of those votes are from Town: {Me, Jolyne, Kyouko}. It’s remarkable that we all agreed there, with Ythan as the fourth voter, but an alternative wagon formed. That’s really fascinating.

[Andresvmb]

I don't think it's likely. But I'm not going to be giving it a pass the whole game just because it did a wacky play towards the end of Day 1, especially if it wasn't likely for its wagon to actually gain traction - I'd have to go back to check if the last part is true, but I at least remember Jolyne was against it.

You don’t think it’s likely, but you’re happy pushing it to E-2 while not really explaining your reasoning, after we pushed Titus quickly and incorrectly?

[Andresvmb]

@geraintm for the record, I think you’re onto something.

[Andresvmb]

The reason I’m alive and Kyouko was killed (we were both read as Town by Jolyne, and I also TR Kyouko), is because I was somewhat pocketed by Nathann. That’s a theory. Maybe wrong, but that’s an idea.

GrandpaMo’s atrocious play is never getting NK’ed. Consistently lying about their role is spectacularly aggravating, but probably not what I expect Scum to be doing. geraintm is Town, and Enchant’s healthy skepticism and pointed remarks make them Town in my book.

There’s just not that many options from where I stand.

[Andresvmb]

Ythan could be Scum I suppose but certainly not aligned with Nathann since they keep throwing them as an option.

[Andresvmb]

Are you forgetting that Jolyne was consistently reading me as Town too?

Koba can make mistakes they’re not infallible. Your votes have been awful thus far - you deserve to be reconsidered.

[Andresvmb]

DGB and Ythan (or maybe Andre as a deepwolf), and I'm willing to bet today's elimination on getting DGB gone.

I’m going to guess this is a dreadful solve.

[Andresvmb]

You are seriously arguing Titus wasn’t playing the game?

[Andresvmb]

All I see are a bunch of excuses and a lot of dead Town. If your vote for AliceK was truly driven by deadline pressure, why didn’t you vote Kazyan earlier? That reasoning makes no sense.

[Andresvmb]

@Nathann DW has unvoted DGB. What do you make of that?

[Andresvmb]

And do you think Town softs a PR there, avoids execution, and then doesn’t get NK’ed but Kyouko [VT] does? What does that tell you?

[Andresvmb]

Fascinating that the Watcher Claim or the Backup Watcher Claim are both left alive (the Watcher Claim obviously now retracted from a player that’s now lied twice about their Role), but the player that softed a Role (and is not pushed thereafter) is left around, even after attracting a lot of TRs from putting in effort. Fascinating isn’t it?

[Andresvmb]

Either the Scum know the Watcher is fake, the claimed and now retracted Watcher is Scum, the Backup Watcher is Scum, or Kazyan is full of shit and Scum. Again, since I believe GrandpaMo is massive execution bait and attracting way too much attention, I’m going to guess Town there. So the other two probably have one Scum. Otherwise one of them would be dead by now. Most likely. No?

[Andresvmb]

Yeah no my push isn’t awful. There’s plenty of reasons to think you could be Scum.

[Andresvmb]

Based on you being an unrestricted watcher I'm gonna guess this setup is one of the stupid ones where there's two ninjas or something ridiculous like that. Otherwise scum would just lose instantly if the ninja died D1.

Or GMo is scum and is informed there is no Watcher

I suppose there’s a world where Kyouko was killed for this.

[Andresvmb]

If scum don't have a ninja or have two ninjas they have no reason to kill me or GMO. If no ninja they would have instantly known the claim was fake cause he claimed to have watched the night kill target, and if ninjas no reason to kill a role that can't guilty them but would remain as elimination bait.

So if the Scum have 1 Ninja, maybe they NK GMo there despite the fact that multiple players pointed to the implausibility of the crumb (which the Scum probably would have done privately btw). But then, in most other scenarios, they shoot the only other player that’s softed a Role as far as I can remember, and

definitely

not a claimed VT. So why is Kazyan alive? WIFOM?

[Andresvmb]

So far I've heard that I've had awful votes (you only took issues with one, which I think I explained well considering you didn't respond) and not being willing to mindlessly lockTown DGB because of one Townie thing they did on Day 1. What else do you have? Genuine question.

Both of your End of Day votes are on Town, and I don’t like your reasoning for your vote on AliceK, and you seem to accepting of a soft you really should be more skeptical of by now.

[Andresvmb]

^too accepting*

[Andresvmb]

If scum don't have a ninja or have two ninjas they have no reason to kill me or GMO. If no ninja they would have instantly known the claim was fake cause he claimed to have watched the night kill target, and if ninjas no reason to kill a role that can't guilty them but would remain as elimination bait.

So if the Scum have 1 Ninja, maybe they NK GMo there despite the fact that multiple players pointed to the implausibility of the crumb (which the Scum probably would have done privately btw). But then, in most other scenarios, they shoot the only other player that’s softed a Role as far as I can remember, and

definitely

not a claimed VT. So why is Kazyan alive? WIFOM?

if 1 ninja they still don't have a reason to kill GMO/me unless ninja gets limmed. I don't know why Kazyan is alive

Yeah I guess, but you do get a bit locked into having to NK the Watcher and the Backup on consecutive Nights if the Ninja gets executed, for fear of getting locked into a 1v1 and losing the game. That’s a massive limitation you can address early by simply eliminating one of them early.

[Andresvmb]

I think telling me that I'm scummy for having my yesterday's vote end up being on Town at the End of Day is hugely ignoring the circumstances of how that wagon went down and I think you're better than that.

That’s clearly not what I’ve done but okay.

[Andresvmb]

And sure, I like to leave PR claims alone as long as possible. And they were being Townie, so /shrug.

A claimed VT died with three players softing or claiming Roles, and then a player reveals they lied about their Role, but you largely ignore all of that and vote DGB despite agreeing that their ISO is messy and some of the activity could be coming from Town. Why should I TR you?

[Andresvmb]

I'm thinking there's scum in DGB/GrandpaMo, I was even wondering if it's possible that's our team. Because two people who didn't even bother to check how many votes Titus is on, when it was probably very obvious she was around Y-1 range? My gut is going against both of those, though.

VOTE: Ythan?

Pedit: nice timing. We got any elaboration behind that theory?

And why are you voting Ythan here? Like this makes no sense.

[Andresvmb]

I think telling me that I'm scummy for having my yesterday's vote end up being on Town at the End of Day is hugely ignoring the circumstances of how that wagon went down and I think you're better than that.

That’s clearly not what I’ve done but okay.

You told me a few posts ago that I'm scummy because both my EoD votes were on Town?

The feeling I have that you’re not Scum is not just because of that. You’re reducing to that because that’s easy to do.

[Andresvmb]

Ugh I need to work.

I’ll try and be back tomorrow. We need more wagons and a lot more debate.

[Andresvmb]

You’re defending yourself too hard and attacking the wrong player. Go find Scum and stop getting all offended that I’m skeptical when you’ve landed consistently on Town and started the day pushing what I think is Town and placing them at E-2.

[Andresvmb]

Without much of an explanation, only to turn around and agree with some of my reasoning. Like go away.

[Andresvmb]

@Ythan if you’re actually going to help, now is the time. I feel like I’m stumbling in the dark and I’m not sure I’m pushing correctly.

@DGB can you opine on the folks that pushed you early in the day?

@Enchant I’m probably giving you too much credit for being so curt. What do you think?

[Andresvmb]

How have I misrepresented you? Have your end of day votes not been on Town? Is that not an accurate summation of where your votes have landed?

[Andresvmb]

I also think DGB and Enchant are Town, and you voted one earlier today and pushed the other one towards the end of D1. Is that not where you have voted? Or what you’ve argued for?

[Andresvmb]

Now if you truly believe DGB is Scum, why would you vote Kazyan? They are certainly not aligned as Scum.

[Andresvmb]

And being Townie on play is far more important than their Role soft. There’s something that just stinks about your play and I can’t fully put my finger on it. Like your vote should be on Ythan if anything.

[Andresvmb]

It’s not that I’m fully convinced I have the game right btw. But the game does need to be shaken up. We’re getting too complacent, and something is not adding up.

[Andresvmb]

3 quick votes on a player that cast a pivotal vote resulting in the execution of a Town player the day prior, with limited resistance, seems strange. Maybe you guys are all Town, correct about DGB, and I’m just way off. But I also want to have some conviction that some of you are actually Town.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: GrandpaMo

I’ll park my vote here for now.

Btw if anybody gets hammered before we really have a meaningful debate here, then I’m going to force an execution there tomorrow.

[Andresvmb]

My argument has already landed somewhere useful - I exposed the fact that your soft was garbage. So my skepticism was clearly warranted.