Mini Normal 2258 | Bunnies [Postgame]

[Aristeia]

I don't really think I can convince you of this so I'm fine accepting the loss if Andres is scum here.

[Aristeia]

White Flag, the Jester game I was talking about with you

[Aristeia]

Let's not talk about that game though because I don't need to rehash it again

[Aristeia]

"I also don’t understand why instead of trying to work with Mathblade, you’re resorting to practically the same sorts of attacks Aristeia was engaged in earlier today. Don’t you need Mathblade to win the game, based on the POE you’ve put out there? So why are you behaving as if sidelining Mathblade is sensible? This doesn’t make sense from a Town perspective. Or at least from the perspective of a Town player playing purely to their win condition."

This line is actually designed AtE. Let me explain why.

[Aristeia]

"I also don’t understand why instead of trying to work with Mathblade, you’re resorting to practically the same sorts of attacks Aristeia was engaged in earlier today. Don’t you need Mathblade to win the game, based on the POE you’ve put out there? So why are you behaving as if sidelining Mathblade is sensible? This doesn’t make sense from a Town perspective. Or at least from the perspective of a Town player playing purely to their win condition."


The first order intention of this line is to shift the blame onto House - as in "it's your fault" it's not mathblade's fault he's not listening to you. He's creating a blame shift where it's House's fault for attacking Mathblade and also saying that sidelining you = bad because you are important to his win-con.

Secondly look at this analysis from a 2nd order perspective - if Andres thinks it doesn't make sense for House!town to play this way, does it make sense for House!scum to do this? He knows this type of attack is not going to change Mathblade's mind - so why would House!scum engage in this behavior?

One explanation would be that House!scum is trying to get Mathblade to double down on his scum read of Ari and push Ari through - but he doesn't make this conclusion.

The other explanation would be that House!scum thinks that if Mathblade is attacked sufficiently and hard enough - he will break and change his mind - which is something that is unlikely from your personality profile and your play history - something that House should be aware of.

As for why House!town would engage in utterly fruitless attacks on you - the simple explanation is simply that he feels enraged and is not behaving rationally - something that he has a habit of doing when he is not listened to as town - it's irrational but it fits his personality profile to a T and it's possibly not something he can actually control.

It feels somewhat strange for Andres to bend the needle through these explanations and come up with his own take where House!unknown is using a method of talking to you that is not useful and thus it's House's fault? He's not calling House scum, he's saying that House's play is not credible because it doesn't fit the play of a perfect townie who is playing rationally - but it doesn't really look at the fact that if House is town, he is not really a rational player to begin with.

[Aristeia]

Also it doesn't actually make any sense for him to think this in regards to house because in his world view he thinks Me/House are the scum team.

He has already stated IV/Mathblade = confmechtown and stated he thinks Datisi can't be teamed with me.

[Aristeia]

In fact he already said the reason he's not voting for me is for Datisi to get his ducks in a row so how does that world view even make sense in terms of him telling House that his play is not optimally townie?

[Aristeia]

This feels like you’re saying Andres is scum for asking a sorting question to House? Iirc House was in Andres’s PoE.

Andres has already stated that Mathblade/IV = mech conftown and Datisi is not teamed with me and he wants to vote me and he's waiting for Datisi to finish up his work before voting me. There is no world where House is not scum from his stated worldview.

[Aristeia]

This feels like you’re saying Andres is scum for asking a sorting question to House? Iirc House was in Andres’s PoE.

I'm saying the way it is phrased is designed to pocket you specifically.

It doesn't think critically about House's alignment in the way he would if House is unsorted in his POE.

Also according to his statements he's already sorted House as scum with me so it makes even less sense for him to make that statement to House.

[Aristeia]

House if you're not a VT why were you ok with trying to get Andres to vote me and kill me earlier? I don't really understand that line of play.

Apathy.

I want this fucking game over because Math has made it extremely unfun.

Can you just real-claim now?

[Aristeia]

I don't know why I'm still playing anymore atp

[Aristeia]

I understand how you feel House because I feel the exact same way at times and sometimes I think maybe it's not worth it to put in the effort because winning or losing doesn't actually mean all that much in the end.

[Aristeia]

I don't know why I'm still playing anymore atp

It’s pretty obvious House is full of shit

You me and Datisi broke down why.

If House is confirmable with a night action then he can say what night action.

yea but I see it more likely that House!town would fakeclaim out of desperation/fustration than House!scum would make up a fakeclaim because why would he do that when the default elim is me who's town?

[Aristeia]

I don't understand how his mind works it's frustrating for me to think about.

[Aristeia]

I put in a ton of effort D2 and theorize what happened

You ended day 2 before 24 hours had passed and then you blamed me for skitter being flashelimmed before I could even talk to her/sort her.

You then said "she deserved to die" for her play when all she did was doubt your innocence.

[Aristeia]

Then D3 vote the person you call scum

You also called him scum and were literally pushing me to push him so I'm sorry what are you blaming me for here?

[Aristeia]

I put in a ton of effort D2 and theorize what happened

You ended day 2 before 24 hours had passed and then you blamed me for skitter being flashelimmed before I could even talk to her/sort her.

You then said "she deserved to die" for her play when all she did was doubt your innocence.

Wow short memory

That’s about scum being on the Lap wagon

Which I said immediately on replace in

And to which you insulted my play similar to how you opened D4

I don't like being closeminded. I don't like it when someone says "scum must be in _____".

You wanted to sort on the wagon.

I wanted to sort off the wagon.

If you let me actually sort skitter and I decide she's town I would've changed my mind and maybe end up sorting on the wagon.

I didn't even get a chance to have a back and forth with her.

[Aristeia]

Nothing math ever does is good

His play is always bad

Math is bad

Math sucks

Mathblade if I thought this about you I would not even bother talking to you because it would be utterly pointless.

[Aristeia]

I guess I could hammer no elim here but I'm also not sure and I'm so over this game

[Aristeia]

VOTE: no-yeet

i pray that house is a vig and shoots me so i can call him even more of a gamethrower than he is now.

why do you want no yeet?

[Aristeia]

3 votes is a hammer on yeet in 6p

[Aristeia]

3 votes = no yeet in 6p

[Aristeia]

VOTE: no-yeet

i pray that house is a vig and shoots me so i can call him even more of a gamethrower than he is now.

why do you want no yeet?

Why are you asking, when you were the one that introduced the idea in the first place?

because I'm confused about so many things.

when i introduced it I didn't know you would claim PR.

[Aristeia]

Mathblade I am very sorry that you think the only reason I have given you so much shit is because I think you suck.

I don't think you suck, you're very good at certain things; I am just frustrated with how you play and that's probably more on me than you.

[Aristeia]

ok I will VOTE: no elim then.

[Aristeia]

that's one way to conftown yourself

[Aristeia]

do you still think IV is town?

[Aristeia]

does house flipping town make you change your mind about me?

[Aristeia]

do you really think me!scum ever kills town!house?

[Aristeia]

I'm sorry that guy was willing to walk through fire for me.

Why would I ever shoot him at night?

[Aristeia]

I mean you sounded like you were still keeping the door open on scum!me

[Aristeia]

i wasn't willing to locktown someone based on the nightkill 7 minutes into lylo? must be scum, you got me

I didn't call you scum? Why are you being so defensive?

[Aristeia]

do you really think me!scum ever kills town!house?

I'm sorry that guy was willing to walk through fire for me.

Why would I ever shoot him at night?

I mean you sounded like you were still keeping the door open on scum!me

well excuse me for drawing conclusions from these posts, because they do not look very charitable.

That's me being exasperated with you.

[Aristeia]

It's really weird to me your first instinct is that I'm accusing you of trying to keep me as a viable lim out of scum motivation rather than me being fustrated because I think town!you wants to murder me and that makes me sad.

[Aristeia]

I didn't say you were mafia because of it ? like why are you even reading an accusation into it?

[Aristeia]

why did you investigate me?

[Aristeia]

I mean if you still think I'm scum after House died then I guess I can't do anything for you

[Aristeia]

Scum!Me shoots Mathblade 1000 times out of 1000 there.

[Aristeia]

I mean if you're still convinced it's me mathblade feel free to vote for me

[Aristeia]

the game will end I will be free

[Aristeia]

IV with either you or Andres

[Aristeia]

I think more likely IV/Andres than IV/You around 80/20

[Aristeia]

I think it's pretty obvious IV is scum because Scum having a roleblocker against Vig/Weak Fruit Vendor/EN Gunsmith is incredibly not balanced

[Aristeia]

its essentially a one shot novice vig + weak fruit vendor + EN Gunsmith versus Scum with Roleblocker if IV is telling the truth.

Means there's oppurtunity for fake guilty, oppurtunity for vig to not get his shot off. That should almost never pass review. All town power is completely and utterly nerfed

[Aristeia]

i meant oppurtunity for fake inno not fake guilty.

[Aristeia]

mathblade if you can't untunnel yourself please just stop wasting my time.

[Aristeia]

It’s at this point I find it unlikely IV is scum gunsmith as IV could have kept silent, SS shoots House for lying about being a vig and then just goes on their way. I don’t see the incentive for scum to out SS there.

If IV doesn't claim on Day 3 he probably gets eliminated on Day 3. Keeping silent is not an option for him.

[Aristeia]

one shot novice vig + weak fruit vendor + EN Gunsmith versus Scum with Roleblocker

does this really make less sense than one shot novice vig + weak fruit vendor period?

like, genuine question, not trying to sound like an ass

yes because a roleblocker/ascetic means the fruit vendor is not an absolute power role and instead can be a liability which is really bad given the lack of other power roles to make up for it.

[Aristeia]

Similar to why I don’t TR Ari for House dying. It’s NAI

It actually makes me locktown

[Aristeia]

I don't shoot the only person at the table lock-townreading me because that's stupid and I'm not stupid.

[Aristeia]

like do the math

if i'm scum and house is town and i dont shoot him how do you elim me today?

[Aristeia]

do you think house is going to wake up today and decide to flip his read on me?

[Aristeia]

his entire iso all of day four was swearing up and down that I'm locktown and eliminating me ends the game and he spent all day insulting you for being a moron for wanting to eliminate me.

Do you really think he wakes up on Day 5 and says "nah that was just for show actually Ari is scum"

[Aristeia]

do you think house is going to wake up today and decide to flip his read on me?

I think if he lived he would. Because then he wouldn’t be confirmed because VT.

Combined with the lack of a result on you I think he’d change his read yeah.

Hard disagree. I doubt House ever changes his read on me.

[Aristeia]

Scum!Me shoots Mathblade 1000 times out of 1000 there.

Can you not just rely on this argument? I don’t think you have the greatest incentive to shoot House, other than so you can scream nonstop that you don’t do this and to trust you. So it’s somewhat WIFOMy. It was unclear to me what the hell kind of role House could possibly have if he actually had a role, but a Scum you might not have wanted to take the chance. I probably don’t shoot in the POE, and always shoot one of Mathblade / IV. The fact they’re both here is baffling. If the Scum knew they could neutralize IV, why not shoot Mathblade then? I’m clearly missing something.

if mathblade is town and deathtunneled on me!town why would scum ever shoot mathblade?

[Aristeia]

Can you not just rely on this argument? I don’t think you have the greatest incentive to shoot House, other than so you can scream nonstop that you don’t do this and to trust you. So it’s somewhat WIFOMy. It was unclear to me what the hell kind of role House could possibly have if he actually had a role, but a Scum you might not have wanted to take the chance.

It is the truth. I never shoot House here.

And being able to talk about me not shooting house is not useful because it doesn't actually do anything for me since Mathblade doesn't

care

about it - he will think it is NAI.

It is 1000% better for scum!me to shoot mathblade, get rid of him wanting to kill me and have house!town alive to defend me.

[Aristeia]

A lot of the play is colored by how many TPRs you think there will be in this game.

However if IV/Mathblade are both town, that means not a single scum player fake-claimed TPR.

How often does that actually happen in a game?

You guys all stated yesterday that no elim would lead to a kill no the "mech-clears" however look at today - niether "mech-clear" died - a result that you say is highly surprising - yet niether mechclear is pushing the other

[Aristeia]

Can you not just rely on this argument? I don’t think you have the greatest incentive to shoot House, other than so you can scream nonstop that you don’t do this and to trust you. So it’s somewhat WIFOMy. It was unclear to me what the hell kind of role House could possibly have if he actually had a role, but a Scum you might not have wanted to take the chance.

It is the truth. I never shoot House here.

And being able to talk about me not shooting house is not useful because it doesn't actually do anything for me since Mathblade doesn't

care

about it - he will think it is NAI.

It is 1000% better for scum!me to shoot mathblade, get rid of him wanting to kill me and have house!town alive to defend me.

What if you couldn’t shoot though? If you’re traitor the argument is a bad one.

Ok if I'm a traitor who's the main scum and why did that main scum not shoot IV or you?

[Aristeia]

They’re not deathtunneled on you. And why didn’t I just try and vote you out yesterday? I could have voted you, baited House to hammer you, and then won the game no? What was I waiting for then?

I think everyone here thinks Mathblade is death-tunneled on me.

One reason why you didn't vote for me could be because if you vote for me then it makes you/IV lock-scum from my POV if House doesn't hammer and you suspect he is baiting you.

[Aristeia]

I highly doubt IV is town here because this game does not make any sense if IV is town.

[Aristeia]

because?

[Aristeia]

believe what?

[Aristeia]

I can't tell which line in my post you are talking about.

[Aristeia]

That is a reason for scum!you not to take House's bait and vote for me. What do you mean I didn't believe it yesterday?

[Aristeia]

okay, past the initial hatred of my life, what are we left with

if iv is scum who's bullshitting about his no-result, then the town is the disloyal weak nonsense, the n2 vig, and the named townie. this feels... it feels bad.

if iv is town, that means scum has to have some sorta action-stopping power. either ascetic or roleblocker (or something similar to it). if it were ascetic (with ari being it), then scum was betting a lot last night on iv checking ari, which would probably be a bad choice considering he found me the most suspicious.

if there's a blocker in play... we once again go back to our d2 dilemma.

@Ari here this is the because

If you’re town it’s pretty much Dats Andres

If IV is town we are playing:

EN Gunsmith, WeakFruitThing, 1 Shot Novice Vig versus Mafia Roleblocker + Mafia Goon or Mafia Goon + Traitor Roleblocker

if IV is scum we are playing:

WeakFruitThing, 1 Shot Novice Vig versus Mafia Rolecop/Gunsmith + Mafia Goon or Mafia Goon + Traitor Rolecop/Gunsmith.


Either way the WeakFruitThing is the focal point of this setup and the most powerful TPR. It would have to crumb efficiently to get value.

I really don't see how this setup is in any way fair or passable if the scum had a roleblocker to create fake innos with because a fake inno is basically nuts and renders the WeakFruitThing basically useless.

This town is already incredibly underpowered.

EN Gunsmith is a very weak role that rarely gets two shots off.

[Aristeia]

I guess I kind of think andres getting pissed at my ate feels kind of townie because I don't think scum him has that reaction to me AtEing at you. Also I kind of think scum him would've voted me already for the win.

Datisi is useless but he's always useless at elo and always wrong so if he's town being wrong about me like the other 2 times that kind of fits I guess.

Like this is what you said yesterday.

That's before I knew for sure House is town...

[Aristeia]

if you think i'm most likely scum just vote for me

it will save you time from figuring out who my imaginary partner is

[Aristeia]

I mean you won't die the game will just end

[Aristeia]

[Aristeia]

if I'm scum I probably don't get quickhammered and you will have lots of time to think.

if I'm town I do get quickhammered and you save yourself the trouble!

win-win for you.

[Aristeia]

i am never touching an isis setup ever again

Datisi please do not blame the setup. We are responsible for our own victories and losses.

[Aristeia]

I mean you won't die the game will just end

I really wish you’d stop doing shit like this if you’re town
Makes me instantly think you’re a goon

Same with the “I don’t shoot House” arguments make me think you’re a traitor

It feels so slimy.

I also wish you wouldn't repeat that I'm definitely scum over and over again.

It makes me feel like you are treating me in bad faith and it makes me feel that I have absolutely 0 agency in the game and makes me want to not do anything other than scream at you.

We don't really get what we want in life.

[Aristeia]

i will unfriend isis on facebook

this is hurtful to me

[Aristeia]

You didn't used to be so mean Datisi.

It's just a game and she took time out of her life to make something for us to enjoy.

You should be more appreciative of your friends.

[Aristeia]

I don't think Mathblade is scum because of the amount of effort he's put in but I wouldn't be surprised if he is.

[Aristeia]

I really don't see how if IV/Mathblade are T/T then House gets shot.

Like can anyone explain that to me?

[Aristeia]

i don't think math is one of those players you can clear on effort unfortunately

That's fair. I guess I'm just baiting him to vote for me at this point because if he actually does vote me and I don't get quickhammered I will post 25000 times until I bury him in a mountain

[Aristeia]

And I already have explained how House dies so….

if you/iv are "mechclear" why does scum shoot House?

[Aristeia]

And I already have explained how House dies so….

if you/iv are "mechclear" why does scum shoot House?

I have already said why

Either you are town or scum expect to win second elo.

this answer doesn't make sense to me. please expand on it.

[Aristeia]

you have made it quite clear you think i am scum so the ari is town explanation makes no sense from you

[Aristeia]

in the world where the scumteam is me/datisi or me/andres. why do we kill house instead of you/iv?

i get elimmed here tomm datisi vs andres?

why dont we just kill one of you/iv and leave house alive to be mislimmed here or defend me or die at 3p?

[Aristeia]

I just realized something

it makes 0 sense for iv to investigate me

he had his vote parked on me at mylo with mathblade for a whole day

if im town and hes town, i should be quickhammered from his pov unless mathblade is scum

he clearly doesnt think mathblade is scum

so why would iv town even investigate someone who from his pov should be locked scum ?

it literally makes 0 sense he shouldve targetted either datisi or andres to look for potential partner.

[Aristeia]

I don't understand how mathblade can be this resistant to an IV!scum world

[Aristeia]

the idea that scum leave two mech clears alive after not counterclaiming is just incredibly sketch on its face.

[Aristeia]

the only way i can believe andres/dats is if theres a traitor but theres no multitasking so uh how does scum kill and roleblock iv?

[Aristeia]

I don't understand how mathblade can be this resistant to an IV!scum world

Imho this doesn’t pass normal review if IV scum

Mechanics > reads almost always barring a good exception

“Sketch” is not a good exception to me

iv being town and scum having a roleblocker would make this setup more scumsided than if iv is scum

[Aristeia]

the vig is already dead.

everyone was claimed.

and um, I don't think it makes sense for you to investigate me if you think there's a chance Datisi scum doesn't quickhammer because he's paranoid of vengeful because wouldn't it make more sense to investigate Datisi then?

[Aristeia]

what are your thoughts rn IV?

Why did you think it was fine to sheep Mathblade yesterday?

[Aristeia]

I sheeped MathBlade because I thought he was basically clear from mech/consensus

If Mathblade is clear that doesn't mean he's voting for scum.

He e-1'd skitter-town d2 and killed her

He pushed Frogster-town d3 and killed him.

Why did you think it's ok to not think about the game and just sheep Mathblade? What about his play makes you think he is likely to come up with the correct solution?

[Aristeia]

I'll maybe try to effort more that we're in lylo and the game depends on me but I'm just so far behind at this point. And my wim is just not high for this/life is getting busier lately. I don't know if playing more is going to be feasible at the future I feel like people are just getting upset at me for being LHF/nonparticipatory.

I don't understand how you can sign up for a game and decide not to play unless you are scum cruising to an easy win.

[Aristeia]

If you are town and just decided I don't want to play and then prodged for 3 straight days then um. I really have issues with that.

[Aristeia]

pedit: isn't Math a backup vigilante of some sort? Or maybe there's another vigilante in the game?

We already mass claimed and Math is a N1 backup vig

[Aristeia]

And sure Datisi could be scum but you could be scum too so I'm not sure why you think my check on you is so weird?

You/Mathblade voteplanted me at Mylo yesterday.

So if you think Mathblade is town, you should think I'm conf-scum since if I'm also town, then scum could just hammer me and win the game.

Instead they didn't and the game is still going on.

So it makes no sense for you to know this and still go ahead with using your last investigation on me instead of trying to find my partner.

[Aristeia]

You don't actually have a single good reason for IV being town whereas I have many reasons why IV is not town.

[Aristeia]

IV's play makes a lot of sense as disinterested scum who is coasting and has no idea how to post and it fits his scum meta to a T.

Every time he pops in here he is not really interesting in solving or giving opinions and immediately ducks out without answering questions about his thought process.

[Aristeia]

I already listed several. The biggest no TPRs if IV is town. I don’t think this passes review if IV scum. You’re better off selling me Dats+Andres or whoever you think is scum with IV if town

I am only interested in IV scum today so if you want to hard-veto it and he's actually scum you can take 100% of the blame here.

[Aristeia]

How does this pass normal review if IV is scum?

If IV is town, that would mean scum have a roleblocker and that makes this setup

even more scumsided

than if IV is just scum rolecop/gunsmith here.

[Aristeia]

Why does IV use a weak ass “no result” claim when a “Ari is scum” likely wins him the game?

this is just wifom. perhaps he is too scared to fake a guilty on me.

[Aristeia]

How does this pass normal review if IV is scum?

If IV is town, that would mean scum have a roleblocker and that makes this setup

even more scumsided

than if IV is just scum rolecop/gunsmith here.

I disagree that scum would have a roleblocker

And that wouldn’t make it more scum sided if they did
Rolestopper or JK or doc make more sense

the idea here is that the town is

incredibly weak power wise

.

The

strongest

TPR is the weak fruit thing.

If that TPR can get false innos - this setup would just not function - if we are unable to trust the innos generated by literally the only TPR we have, then like this town is even more fucked.

So I can't see how the mafia can have anything that can block that TPR and generate false innos (ascetic, roleblocker, jker, rolestopper) all of these are just ridiculous to put in this setup given how weak the town is.

[Aristeia]

actually do you both agree that regardless of whether IV is town or scum this town is really on the weak end of power and probably this setup shouldn't have been passed?

[Aristeia]

Rolestopper has to guess the target

the weak fruit thing literally has to crumb its invest beforehand - that's not really guessing for the mafia

[Aristeia]

think for a second about the balance in this setup - this town is INCREDIBLY WEAK

Like the scum made a choice to shoot House.

I think this means the scum actually believed House when House said he was a provable TPR because the scum thought the town was really really weak - which implies the scum know something about the claimed TPRs - aka they know IV is not an actual gunsmith.

[Aristeia]

like I didn't think House was an actual TPR.

Nothing about his play made sense as a TPR.

but whoever is running scumside thought House is a TPR that could be proven because if he isn't - you just leave House alive and when House can't prove himself - today he gets yeeted game is over.

Why doesn't scum do this?

IMO the reason they don't do this is because they believed House is a provable TPR and will be in control of the thread today - which they wouldn't believe if they thought IV is actually an Even Night Gunsmith.

[Aristeia]

think for a second about the balance in this setup - this town is INCREDIBLY WEAK

Like the scum made a choice to shoot House.

I think this means the scum actually believed House when House said he was a provable TPR because the scum thought the town was really really weak - which implies the scum know something about the claimed TPRs - aka they know IV is not an actual gunsmith.

It’s actually not.

Vig acts as a dual IC in normals.

The modifier can’t be given to scum.

You can't both claim this town is so weak that IV must be town and then in the same breath claim this town is not incredibly weak - it feels like you are doing some incredibly gymnastics to refuse to see the issue here.

[Aristeia]

Actually shooting House makes a lot of sense if the scum team is Mathblade/IV because no other shot makes sense in that team scenario

[Aristeia]

No I've already stated that only way IV is town is if Scum have a Roleblocker.

And Scum having a roleblocker would make this setup even more scumsided.

[Aristeia]

Actually shooting House makes a lot of sense if the scum team is Mathblade/IV because no other shot makes sense in that team scenario

If I was scum with IV I shoot Datisi here.

And leave House alive? What if House turns out to be a Day 5 IC or a Vig and you end up getting hard shoved by House/Me?

[Aristeia]

It is true to me

I no longer believe you are discussing things in good faith with me.

You continue to tunnel in on me being specifically ascetic traitor scum

[Aristeia]

Actually shooting House makes a lot of sense if the scum team is Mathblade/IV because no other shot makes sense in that team scenario

If I was scum with IV I shoot Datisi here.

And leave House alive? What if House turns out to be a Day 5 IC or a Vig and you end up getting hard shoved by House/Me?

It was already clear House was full of shit.

I just thought he was scum full of shit.

We're talking in the scenario where you are scum with IV

[Aristeia]

You are doing some incredible bending to refuse to consider the possibility of IV being scum despite many pieces of evidence stacking up against him.

[Aristeia]

I would accept your level of confidence if you were good at town or if you had been right so far this game but you've been wrong on every single read.

D2 you voted for skitter - she's town
D3 you voted for frog - he's town
D4 you voted for House -he's town.

The fact that IV is still alive as a claimed TPR investigative who survived being nightkilled over the person you were sure was scum yesterday should've reset your reads but you continue to refuse to.

Where do you get the confidence to triple down on your convictions after being wrong on so many flips?

[Aristeia]

I am not tripling down on reads. I am tripling down on the mechanics every dead Townie agreed on.

House did not agree, he's dead right now - scum shot him over the claimed mech-clear town investigative role.

If I'm "ascetic scum" why would I not be worried about IV creating a clear by targetting in Datisi/Andres?

[Aristeia]

You're tripling down on your assumption about this setup despite the nightkills clearly showing something is fucked up.

[Aristeia]

His reads were utter garbage as he disregarded everything.

if his reads are utter garbage why did the scum shoot him and let you live?

[Aristeia]

like if you're town here mathblade.

then you are basically close to mechclear mod conf'd town

and the mafia decided to let you live

and shot house instead.

and you think this means your reads are good?

[Aristeia]

like what

[Aristeia]

you spent 2 posts not saying what when you could've just said what? How is this bad faith? I don't remember everything you type in this thread. just quote where you answered it?

[Aristeia]

"But both cases House is in control of the elim and likely either turns on you or tries to push Datisi or Andres through."

How is this bad for me?

[Aristeia]

The exact motivation for punting as Scum with two Confirmed Town is obvious - you eliminate one of them and have their vote and voice silenced at the most opportune time.

iv is the defacto night kill if he is town.

He's an even night investigative.

It's an even night.

If he stays alive, it's because he's scum. Scum can't risk him landing a guilty.

[Aristeia]

The exact motivation for punting as Scum with two Confirmed Town is obvious - you eliminate one of them and have their vote and voice silenced at the most opportune time.

iv is the defacto night kill if he is town.

He's an even night investigative.

It's an even night.

If he stays alive, it's because he's scum. Scum can't risk him landing a guilty.

"But both cases House is in control of the elim and likely either turns on you or tries to push Datisi or Andres through."

How is this bad for me?

You literally just quoted why.

Town in control

?

If I leave house alive he just votes for IV with me

why wouldn't I shoot you and leave house alive if i'm scum?

[Aristeia]

I don't believe you are conversing in good faith now.

[Aristeia]

I can't wait until you see my alignment so you realize just how much I mean every word I've said to you.

[Aristeia]

he said that to you btw.

so please don't tell me he was actually lying about townreading me and trying to get IV an extra check.

[Aristeia]

he said that to you btw.

so please don't tell me he was actually lying about townreading me and trying to get IV an extra check.

[Aristeia]

If he stays alive, it's because he's scum. Scum can't risk him landing a guilty.

[Aristeia]

He didn't say that to get IV-town an extra inv.

He said that because he thinks IV is scum.

[Aristeia]

I don't give a shit what IV to you is. I have already cased IV by dayplay- by nka - by meta.

the only thing you have is "if iv is scum this setup wouldn't pass" which is just your opinion of balance.

If we lose to IV scum it won't be because I made a mistake.

[Aristeia]

He’s already proven wrong on either IV town from D1 or you town now.

?

if you think IV/Me has to have one scum why the fuck are you asking me to case Andres?

[Aristeia]

If we lose to IV scum it’s because of the setup.

no

if we lose to IV scum it is because of the person who is town who refuses to vote for IV-scum.

period

end of story

not fucking passing the buck to isis and the NRG

you take responsibility for your own play and your own actions.

[Aristeia]

Because that’s the only way I see us winning if you’re town since you won’t or can’t answer what I need to vote IV

I have already cased IV

I can rewrite the case again

I don't give a shit about your setup spec

[Aristeia]

And you will have made a mistake by constantly calling me bad and stupid and how I play is bad
Causing a ton of shit fights rather than actually believing I can play

you pushed skitter/frogster/house

they are all town

if you got your way yesterday and killed house or me this game is already over

i'm not going to re-litigate this with you stop bringing it up

[Aristeia]

And those all three gamethrew IMHO

you can talk to them after the game then.

I find your comments disgusting

[Aristeia]

Then case Andres or die

why should I case Andres when you've already said there is scum between me and IV?

[Aristeia]

They all did stuff that gets them fucking elimmed in the newbie queue while being experienced. House’s “but let me be scum while being town” is pretty much bullshit.

no

[Aristeia]

I find you disgusting

[Aristeia]

i have never seen a player push townie after townie and then blame the dead townies for being game throwing or playing in a disgusting manner.

I am appalled.

[Aristeia]

I am done with this game

VOTE: Innocent Villager

do whatever you want to do Mathblade I am finished talking with you.

[Aristeia]

your actions are no longer acceptable to me and I wish to end this game as soon as possible I no longer care about winning please do not speak to me again until after this game is over and I will return the favor.

[Aristeia]

i am surprised you can show up right on time

[Aristeia]

I am voting you because you voted for me and the scum didn't quickhammer me.

I am voting for you because you are refusing to play this game - I refuse to believe that IV would sign up for a game just not play if he is town, I can see you being unable to get into it if you are scum and disinterested because townies are attacking each other and leaving you largely alone.

I am voting for you because you have not shown any semblance of caring or even pretending to solve through four game days now.

I am voting for you because you said you wanted to sheep House - a decision that makes no sense if you are trying to win since House hasn't been right about a single damn thing this entire game.

I am voting for you because you fake-claimed Mason as an investigative TPR and that makes no sense as a play to me.

I am voting for you because the scum didn't nightkill you despite you being a claimed TPR and "mechcleaR" whatever the fuck that means.

I am voting for you because the scum shot House - a claimed TPR, probably believing him to be a strong TPR - if they know you are an TPR, they are unlikely to make that kill since House obviously is not a TPR if you are a TPR.

I am voting for you because House wants you dead and said you are likely scum if you survive the night and there's no reason for scum to shoot house if you are town because they are better off leaving house alive to push you today.

I am voting for you because it makes no sense for there to be a roleblocker that blocked you last night because that would make this game incredibly scumsided - the central TPR is the weakfruit thing- which is entirely useless if the scum have a multi-shot roleblocker.

I am voting for you because your investigation of me makes no sense for you to do. You were voting for me yesterday with Mathblade - which means that from your POV I must be scum or Mathblade must be scum, since you still believe mathblade to be a town-clear, you have no reason to think I am town, hence there is no reason for you to inv me, if you inv datisi or andres, you can pin down my partner exactly. Instead you decided to target me with your inv when from your POV if you are paying attention I should already be a hard-scum player.

I am voting for you because I do not want to lose to shitty mech-spec. I want to try to win on dayplay because mechspec can be wrong but dayplay I can at least take responsibility for.

I am voting for you because you conveniently ghosted me last night instead of answering my questions. You did not do the bare minimum of answering questions people have for you, you display no curiosity or solving intent in this thread at all - all of this matches with your scum play where you tend to coast/disappear if you are not under pressure. You re-appearing with some weak AtE right after I vote for you is very convenient in terms of timing.

Finally I am voting for you because I am utterly sick of this game and talking with a certain player in this game. I want this game to be over. I want to take a shower and wash every bad feeling I have about this game away. I am sick and tired of being here. I never knew I could hate playing mafia so much. It's really not great.

and I'll be honest - a large part of this is my fault. I've made many many mistakes this game. Maybe voting you will just be another one of them. We shall see.

[Aristeia]

like i'll be frank

if you're town

why did you sign up if you aren't going to play?

[Aristeia]

I do not want to be mean. I am sorry things have gone this way.



I hope this game is over soon.

[Aristeia]

I remembered some more reasons for IV being scum while asleep; they relate to the nightkill on N1.

1) RTP's initial hero solve on D1 was lapla-iv-vpb. RTP wanted IV dead but was stopped from pushing him by the shot.

2) IV + House fake-claimed mason on D1 - the scum somehow knew this mason claim was fake and did not shoot in the pair of claimed Masons - House is already flipped VT so the only way the scum would know this information N1 and avoid shooting either House or IV is because IV is mafia.

[Aristeia]

For the Mech,

here is a setup that we could be playing:

Townside:

Night 2 Vig/Commuter
Night 1 Backup Vigilante
Weak Fruit Thrower
7 VTs

Scumside:
Mafia Rolecop or Gunsmith
Mafia Goon x2

[Aristeia]

Assuming the Weak Fruit Person gets 1 shot off, that is 3 confirmed innocents between Vig/Investigatee/Fruit Thrower which makes sense for a mini normal.

If the scum do not find the Weak Fruit Thrower or the Weak Fruit Thrower gets more shots off, you can get 4 or even more "confirmed" innocents.

There is swing based on how well the fruit-thrower does in crumbing and staying quiet but it would still be balanced.

[Aristeia]

Just tell me you're town again Dats.

[Aristeia]

have you read an IV town game?

[Aristeia]

here are some examples:

viewtopic.php?f=83&t=88280

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=88427

[Aristeia]

I meant Mathblade, not House.

[Aristeia]

My point was there was no good reason for IV to decide to not play the game and blind-sheep Mathblade.

[Aristeia]

The point about sheeping House has to do with nightkill analysis.

House died stating he wanted to vote for IV - it would be silly for the mafia to nightkill House if IV is town here as House if alive would vote for IV and give the Mafia the win.

[Aristeia]

it would nice to be your partner Dats

[Aristeia]

Sheeping a player blindly at mylo is stupid - not caring enough to play the game for yourself and just blindly sheeping a player without any curiosity or solving is just negligent and not characteristic of IV's town play.

I am not saying to deadsheep house - I am saying the night kill analysis points towards IV scum killing House because IV did not want House to vote for him - if IV/House are both town, scum just keep House alive and let House vote IV => Win the Game.

The simplest explanation for why House was killed is because:

A) Scum did not want House!town to vote for IV!scum, if IV is town, scum just let House live and vote IV => game over.

B) Scum believed House was a TPR that could become confirmed town; this implies that IV is not a TPR from scum POV - if scum thought IV is TPR, they do not believe House's claim yesterday.

[Aristeia]

so a provable role that also shows alignment that is gated until Night four?

What exactly are you thinking of that fits ?

[Aristeia]

Even if we correctly execute IV here, you drag Aristeia to the end with me, and we lose because Aristeia is always voting me before you.

This isn't true

[Aristeia]

if I was sure Datisi was town I wouldn't be asking him

[Aristeia]

Honestly I'm hoping I just get nightkilled after IV flips scum so I don't have to deal with this shit anymore

[Aristeia]

If anyone is locked into voting you after IV flips scum it's mathblade so I'm pretty sure Datisi-scum kills me over Mathblade in that world

[Aristeia]

I'm honestly kind of hoping the scum between the two of you votes for me so I don't have to actually figure out which of you two is scum with IV.

[Aristeia]

dats I kind of miss you.

[Aristeia]

how was your walk? what did you see?

[Aristeia]

awww that sounds really nice.

please share if you have a chance.

I love taking walks in the moonlight.

[Aristeia]

the moon was really pretty though, and yesterday night i risked a painful injury by climbing some steep sharp rocks in the dark to get onto a monument in order to take a solid picture

I really do want to see this picture Dats;

I think knowing that when I take my walks at night that we are looking at the same moon makes me feel a bit closer to you <3.

[Aristeia]

I really just cannot promise a super substantial catch-up, I’m sorry this has been a really rough week. If that means you need to vote me then I understand

If you think about this line from a town!pov it really doesn't make any sense for town!IV to say this.

[Aristeia]

okay, just for you ari:

Spoiler:

awww.

That's a beautiful picture - this made my day thank you.

Spoiler: For Dats

This is one of my favorite love songs about the moon, love, doubt, hope and dreams;

[Aristeia]

Are you still awake Dats?

[Aristeia]

I had a semi-rough day and I miss you.

[Aristeia]

I was taking a walk tonight and listening to that song you picked out for me and the verse about the moon came up and I looked up at it - so big and bright in the sky and I felt so warm inside even though it's quite cold here and the wind is gusting around me. I guess sometimes the world can be cold but when I remember you are here with me it feels different.

[Aristeia]

Dats, I'm town

if we are the last two people alive - do we win together? I really want to win with you.

[Aristeia]

Sometimes I feel incredibly sad because I feel incredibly alone - like almost invisible. I am glad you can see me and you take time out of your life to take care of me. It means a lot to me - it really does.

[Aristeia]

I hope if you are mafia and we get out of today that you will do me the favor of killing me. I really do not want to think about a you!scum world. it would break something in me that is precious to me.

I think you would have a better chance with mathblade - I truly do.

[Aristeia]

It's hard for me to put what I feel into words because I am limited in many areas - I don't know if I am capable of lying in this manner as scum; I do not think I am.

[Aristeia]

I guess one way you can tell the difference between my ate as town and my ate as scum is that when I ate as town it is tinged with a kind of sadness that only comes from the heart.

[Aristeia]

Would you like to talk about something happier instead? This game is almost over anyway.

[Aristeia]

I don't know where the votes will fall.

I just know I enjoy chatting with you - it makes me feel very happy.

Much happier than playing this game.

[Aristeia]

I think you should make an objective decision based on the dayplay, the mech, and your own reasoning.

I don't think anything else is really that important.

I won't be sad if you vote against me - I enjoyed our time together and your decision can't change that.

[Aristeia]

what are you actually thinking about btw?

[Aristeia]

aww you should go to sleep then and get some rest <3

[Aristeia]

I am voting you because you voted for me and the scum didn't quickhammer me.

I am voting for you because you are refusing to play this game - I refuse to believe that IV would sign up for a game just not play if he is town, I can see you being unable to get into it if you are scum and disinterested because townies are attacking each other and leaving you largely alone.

I am voting for you because you have not shown any semblance of caring or even pretending to solve through four game days now.

I am voting for you because you said you wanted to sheep House - a decision that makes no sense if you are trying to win since House hasn't been right about a single damn thing this entire game.

I am voting for you because you fake-claimed Mason as an investigative TPR and that makes no sense as a play to me.

I am voting for you because the scum didn't nightkill you despite you being a claimed TPR and "mechcleaR" whatever the fuck that means.

I am voting for you because the scum shot House - a claimed TPR, probably believing him to be a strong TPR - if they know you are an TPR, they are unlikely to make that kill since House obviously is not a TPR if you are a TPR.

I am voting for you because House wants you dead and said you are likely scum if you survive the night and there's no reason for scum to shoot house if you are town because they are better off leaving house alive to push you today.

I am voting for you because it makes no sense for there to be a roleblocker that blocked you last night because that would make this game incredibly scumsided - the central TPR is the weakfruit thing- which is entirely useless if the scum have a multi-shot roleblocker.

I am voting for you because your investigation of me makes no sense for you to do. You were voting for me yesterday with Mathblade - which means that from your POV I must be scum or Mathblade must be scum, since you still believe mathblade to be a town-clear, you have no reason to think I am town, hence there is no reason for you to inv me, if you inv datisi or andres, you can pin down my partner exactly. Instead you decided to target me with your inv when from your POV if you are paying attention I should already be a hard-scum player.

I am voting for you because I do not want to lose to shitty mech-spec. I want to try to win on dayplay because mechspec can be wrong but dayplay I can at least take responsibility for.

I am voting for you because you conveniently ghosted me last night instead of answering my questions. You did not do the bare minimum of answering questions people have for you, you display no curiosity or solving intent in this thread at all - all of this matches with your scum play where you tend to coast/disappear if you are not under pressure. You re-appearing with some weak AtE right after I vote for you is very convenient in terms of timing.

Finally I am voting for you because I am utterly sick of this game and talking with a certain player in this game. I want this game to be over. I want to take a shower and wash every bad feeling I have about this game away. I am sick and tired of being here. I never knew I could hate playing mafia so much. It's really not great.

and I'll be honest - a large part of this is my fault. I've made many many mistakes this game. Maybe voting you will just be another one of them. We shall see.

[Aristeia]

I am voting you because you voted for me and the scum didn't quickhammer me.

I am voting for you because you are refusing to play this game - I refuse to believe that IV would sign up for a game just not play if he is town, I can see you being unable to get into it if you are scum and disinterested because townies are attacking each other and leaving you largely alone.

I am voting for you because you have not shown any semblance of caring or even pretending to solve through four game days now.

I am voting for you because you said you wanted to sheep House - a decision that makes no sense if you are trying to win since House hasn't been right about a single damn thing this entire game.

I am voting for you because you fake-claimed Mason as an investigative TPR and that makes no sense as a play to me.

I am voting for you because the scum didn't nightkill you despite you being a claimed TPR and "mechcleaR" whatever the fuck that means.

I am voting for you because the scum shot House - a claimed TPR, probably believing him to be a strong TPR - if they know you are an TPR, they are unlikely to make that kill since House obviously is not a TPR if you are a TPR.

I am voting for you because House wants you dead and said you are likely scum if you survive the night and there's no reason for scum to shoot house if you are town because they are better off leaving house alive to push you today.

I am voting for you because it makes no sense for there to be a roleblocker that blocked you last night because that would make this game incredibly scumsided - the central TPR is the weakfruit thing- which is entirely useless if the scum have a multi-shot roleblocker.

I am voting for you because your investigation of me makes no sense for you to do. You were voting for me yesterday with Mathblade - which means that from your POV I must be scum or Mathblade must be scum, since you still believe mathblade to be a town-clear, you have no reason to think I am town, hence there is no reason for you to inv me, if you inv datisi or andres, you can pin down my partner exactly. Instead you decided to target me with your inv when from your POV if you are paying attention I should already be a hard-scum player.

I am voting for you because I do not want to lose to shitty mech-spec. I want to try to win on dayplay because mechspec can be wrong but dayplay I can at least take responsibility for.

I am voting for you because you conveniently ghosted me last night instead of answering my questions. You did not do the bare minimum of answering questions people have for you, you display no curiosity or solving intent in this thread at all - all of this matches with your scum play where you tend to coast/disappear if you are not under pressure. You re-appearing with some weak AtE right after I vote for you is very convenient in terms of timing.

Finally I am voting for you because I am utterly sick of this game and talking with a certain player in this game. I want this game to be over. I want to take a shower and wash every bad feeling I have about this game away. I am sick and tired of being here. I never knew I could hate playing mafia so much. It's really not great.

and I'll be honest - a large part of this is my fault. I've made many many mistakes this game. Maybe voting you will just be another one of them. We shall see.

I remembered some more reasons for IV being scum while asleep; they relate to the nightkill on N1.

1) RTP's initial hero solve on D1 was lapla-iv-vpb. RTP wanted IV dead but was stopped from pushing him by the shot.

2) IV + House fake-claimed mason on D1 - the scum somehow knew this mason claim was fake and did not shoot in the pair of claimed Masons - House is already flipped VT so the only way the scum would know this information N1 and avoid shooting either House or IV is because IV is mafia.

[Aristeia]

how well is your partner positioned for you to care this little about the game?

[Aristeia]

Now I am starting to wish I had been more engaged from the beginning, sigh. Little too late maybe...

Nah actually idk if mafia is really for me anymore idk I'm kind of just not really into just feeling like crap and apologizing for throwing for town whenever I get on. (it's late and I'm just tiredposting)

Somewhat gross to say from a scum who lurker all the way to elo.

This is not a geniune thought - it's a fake emotional appeal.

[Aristeia]

Hmm, I guess I can sort of see how the nightkill might point to me? But this also seems like easy wifom. I think you saw me as defeated and thought I would be an easy misexe to the end with this kill, which I guess you might be right about because I just don't have much time this week. And House is very unpredictable as we all know so who knows if he would've followed up on pushing me. Especially if I have to claim "no result" and they know that somehow, it just looks even worse for me

If I know you are town gunsmith, then I know house is bullshitting about being confirmed, hence I would leave him alive and shoot mathblade.

today then house is then not confirmed and a easy misyeet or I get him to keep pushing you and you are an easy misyeet.

In no scenario do I actually shoot house.

There is also a second element in this that has to do with this - everyone thinks House is my "partner" so even if House doesn't help me yeet you and somehow changes his mind - me flipping scum just dooms house!town on day 6 and we still win.

It is completely nonsensical for scum me to kill house because it messes with my win condition both today and tomorrow.

[Aristeia]

And fmpov your AtE towards MathBlade was really gross knowing that you're scum now.

its kind of cute you only remembered to feel outraged about my ate after i said your ate is gross for a scum who lurked his way to the end off bad mechspec.

[Aristeia]

To address your points more specifically: how do you know House is bullshitting about being confirmed given you know I'm town? Is the setup necessarily unbalanced if me, Math, and House are all PRs and town? I'm not sure why that would have to be the case at all.

yes

you and house can't both be tprs.

if im scum and i know you are a tpr - i know by extension that house is not a tpr.

that's why any scum team without you in it would not kill house - his claim would be obviously fake to anyone who thinks you are actually a gunsmith.

[Aristeia]

So you have never seen townies take a backseat to a game because of RL/desire to play less?

I have seen townies take a backseat

I have not seen

you

take a backseat at mylo - you are very opinionated and loud as town.

you have stated you are a very polarized player with a different scum/town meta - being fake cleared and watching mathblade death tunneling me made you completetly uninterested in the game and you decided to do nothing because you felt no need to rock the boat.

[Aristeia]

I TR'd House and just went along with his roleswap because I felt like it and wanted to see where it went, it felt weird to not go along with it idk. I didn't think it was that likely I would die given how little of a threat I was to any scumteam at that point.

A real investigative tpr doesnt decide to play nightkill roulette by pretending to be a mason.

House did it as a VT because he wanted to draw the NK; it is silly for you to do it as a gunsmith.

[Aristeia]

I also disliked when you quoted frogster's case during the previous day as evidence in your favor without any sort of desire to look at it. I think that aligns with an approach where you were trying to sway Math that I was scum yesterday instead of actually trying to figure out if I was scum (trying to win a debate rather than discuss an issue genuinely), and I don't feel like you were actually that "confident" in me being scum at that point to completely disregard how absolutely insane that case was.

you were already voting for me at mylo. theres nothing for me to figure out atp if you are town, then scum just quickhammer me and the game is over.

[Aristeia]

I've talked about this already and you are out here repeating the same thing. Idk if you actually addressed it or not but I think you "conveniently" did not. But I'll say it again: I didn't think my existence in the game mattered anymore, I was not interested in playing this game or trying mostly for that reason. I did not have you as confirmed scum yesterday and you trying to push that is weird because if I'm actually scum here faking everything I would be more aware that you are mechnically confscum to me (per your logic, which again I'll say was not true for me because of very possible hesistancy to quickhammer)

you aren't interested in optimal investigation because you are mafia;

This thing where you say "maybe datisi/andres didnt take the easy quickhammer on ari!town" is kind of nonsense.

[Aristeia]

So then my voice doesn’t matter and this game always ends with my execution. So why does anyone even care about my opinion?

If you are town, you should vote for IV because I am also town

If you are worried that I will vote for you tommorrow over Datisi; let me make that mistake if it comes to that.

Make the right choice yourself.

[Aristeia]

I’ve got so little patience for the style of play that almost makes people feel guilty if they vote for you. Like it’s so manipulative and bad, I can’t stand it.

I am sorry if you feel that way about my play.

I won't hold it against you if you vote for me here; I have lost many games and I am perfectly fine with losing another one.

[Aristeia]

Dats, isn't Andres kind of confscum to you unless you think either me/IV is s/s or mb is s?

[Aristeia]

well if scum him votes for me and iv ends up flipping today he has 0 chance of winning tomm.

[Aristeia]

I guess he could still make the case that IV/me are S/S tomm but it seems a tough sell.

[Aristeia]

Like scum!me basically never treats a falsely mech-cleared partner like I've treated IV - it's anti win con and much more difficult than just taking a dive and letting IV go all the way.

[Aristeia]

so like, why did you call that out >_>

I am confused by the way you two treat each other it's a strange dynamic

like yesterday he said he was ready to vote me but wanted you to do your due diligence first

and today he is saying the same thing?

except the House flip should've reset his world view

it is weird.

[Aristeia]

Feeling kind of sick today ~.~ probably shouldn't have taken that walk last night it was soooo cold.

Spoiler: for Dats

[Aristeia]

aww thanks mb

sorry I was such a bitch to you for most of the game ~.~

I'm trying to get better at not lashing out but I'm not very good at it.

[Aristeia]

It's ok I deserved most of what you said about me - I am quite unreasonable sometimes.

[Aristeia]

Thanks IV.

Yea I do agree we could both be nicer people - progress is hard.