Night Watch Open 95 - Game Over before 703

[camn]

/confirm

[camn]

um.....

Vote OBAMA!!!

@KMD
Your Gambit is flawed.
But I suggest you try it again this game. I would like to see it.

[camn]

That sucks about KMD... I was looking forward to another game with you! Maybe I'll try your thing....

@Bionic, You seem to be defending Crazy. Are you?
Also.. why such concern about the setup? How does it help to know if it has been played before? And who designed it...?

@Panda... what are you even talking about?

@ Xtoxm.. I think I agree.

Vote Crazy

How

were

you so crackerjack regarding the night start? Our Mod forgot, yet you remembered.. Is it what bionic said? Or do you have some other explanation?

[camn]

Anyways, why are we voting for crazy?

I think Xtoxm's reasons are pretty clear.

I'm

voting to see if Crazy says anything interesting regarding X's accusations. But Bionic is doing all the work for him
Bionic has some pretty good explanations, though...

And the other one is a random vote.

Last I checked,

You

weren't actually voting for him.. . so I am assuming you didn't really mean "we". . .

[camn]

I love Random voting

And I tend to agree withyou regarding the night-start case.

BUT, i wish CRAZY could have told us how he knew. . .

[camn]

It was a joke.

Last game, KMD made up this thing he called the "KMD Gambit" to catch scum.
It never caught any scum...
My position was that it was flawed.. since it only caught me, as town.
But nobody thought much of it. It may have lost the game for us, though it was more likely our bad play.

And I can't think how it would relate.
Unless Zazier is here..... they had a wager about it

OR, maybe its scum trying to bait us into a WIFOM-driven retaliation nightkill discussion...
Like killing Xtoxm in order to build a case against Crazy. (which is what

I

would have done!)

[camn]

As far as I can tell, You are the only person with a RV up.

[camn]

...

UNVOTE:crazy

I just wanted to see what you would say.

And re: the hider.. the trick would be to VERY SUBTLE-Y breadcrumb who you are hiding behind.

HOWEVER.. I don't really know why you are speculating as to what a PR should be doing.. . and I REALLY don't like you asking for them to claim at this point.
My opinion? Ignore this ortloan's speculation.

Do not claim

. In fact, don't even breadcrumb.. unless you are really good at it. ESPECIALLY ignore ort's statement that this is the "only way it could possibly be useful". SO untrue.


On a strictly academic note, I was recently in a game with 2 Hider's in endgame. They hid behind each other...

[camn]

afatchic plan seems good, and fun.

ortolan's obsession with gaming the power roles is neither good, nor fun.

Does anyone have any reason we should not do this?

The answer is.. we should be playing mafia instead.

[camn]

afatchic plan seems good, and fun.

How am I against it?

[camn]

Ah, Upon rereading, I can see how it comes off as me being against it.

Let me clarify.

Afatchic.. your plan is good. lets do it. In my post above, I did not mean to imply that we shouldn't all fake-claim Hider... it is a clever plan and I like it..

What is suspicious to me ort's seeming fixation on figuring out what to do with the Hider role.
First he says

The watcher should either play like a vanilla townie for the whole game or claim now...

then

I didn't suggest they should claim

then launches into a convoluted plan, with statistics and everything, that is defeated by the wiki.
THEN, when afatchic brings up his idea (which, to reiterate, I

like

), Ort grabs THAT and runs with it.

.. it all seemed suspect to me last night after getting home from the bar... and I have certainly gotten lynched for less

[camn]

I will hide behind Bionicchop2. I hid behind bionic last night and I didn't die

so

bionicchop2--->???, Xtoxm
camn-------->Bionic, Bionic

[camn]

afatchic DID bring up a good point.
I usually just Hide as long as I can, and use my knowledge in the endgame.
But I havn't been the Hider that many times.
I'll try it his way......

bionicchop2--->camn
camn-------->Bionic
TCS--------->Crazy

bionicchop2--->Xtoxm
camn-------->afatchic
TCS----------->Panda Stomper 85

Oh, and Ortolan is back with a FURY!
I know bionic quoted it for you.. but it is true. The Hider operates as usual.
And at this point I don't

particularly

think you are scum. I just think you make bad decisions. But you COULD be newbie-scum just as well as newbie-town. . so don't try and weasel around it that way
Excessive Worrying about setup is a common scum-tell IMO..... that is all.

[camn]

bionicchop2--->camn
camn---------->Bionic
TCS------------->Crazy
StrangerCoug--->orangepenguin
afatchic--------->icemanE
orangepenguin-->Xtoxm

bionicchop2---->Xtoxm
camn------------>afatchic
TCS------------->Panda Stomper 85
StrangerCoug--->orangepenguin
afatchic--------->StrangerCoug
orangepenguin-->ortolan

FOS StrangerCoug

for choosing the same person both times.
If you ARE the Hider.. you WANT to hit scum. if You "know" penguin is town.. why choose him again?
If you ARE NOT the hider and are TOWN.... it shouldn't matter.
If you are NOT the hider and are SCUM.. then you want to give out as little info as possible in the event of your lynch... thus you sticking with the single choice.

Plus, your rebuttal of afatchic's accusation of self-preservation is uncharacteristically dense of you.
If you ARE scum.. and afatchic IS the hider.. then him hiding behind you is not an example of self-preservation... it is an example him confirming you as scum tomorrow, and us lynching you. I think you DO get it.

[camn]

Make your own list.

And it's not an assertion, its an opinion. That's what IMO means.
I will write it out for you next time.

It comes from the idea that there is nothing pro-town about figuring out who the power roles are on Day 1.. because then they end up dead. But the scum shure would like to know who they are.
And excessive discussion about setup often leads to somebody slipping up and hinting as to their role. It gives the scum info. And with very little benefit to us. But that's just often, not always.

But I admit.. this claiming thing is interesting. I usually play straight.. but this is fun, too.

[camn]

>sigh<

its in my notes anyway.....

bionicchop2--->camn
camn---------->Bionic
TCS------------->Crazy
StrangerCoug--->orangepenguin
afatchic--------->icemanE
orangepenguin-->Xtoxm
Xtoxm------------>camn
icemanE------->afatchic
Crazy-------->Panda Stomper 85
ortolan-------->Bionic

bionicchop2---->Xtoxm
camn------------>afatchic
TCS------------->Panda Stomper 85
StrangerCoug--->orangepenguin
afatchic--------->StrangerCoug
orangepenguin-->ortolan
Xtoxm--------->icemanE
icemanE----->StrangerCoug
Crazy--------->TCS
ortolan--------->camn

Did I miss Panda Stomper's claim?

[camn]

In response to your points: if I was mafia, would I come up with such an obvious scheme to try to glean who the hider is? I personally would give myself more credit.

I don't give you more credit. Why would I?
You insist, even now, that speculating on roles is a pro-town move.
Yet, in the same breath, you agree that it is hazardous.

The only reason I "did not make it explicit" is because, in 75% of games I have played here.. you would have been lynched already. I'm not the crazy one here.

So.. which is is? Is my point valid.. or is it not? That is a serious question.
A rhetorical one: Are you seriously using "I give myself more credit" as a defense for acting scummy?
I, sir, have spent the last few years building up an immunity to iocane powder........

[camn]

Look, Ort.. it was scummy.. but not THAT scummy.
however..Your intense, desperate defense is almost MORE scummy.

No one is even voting you, but you are freaking out about every little thing. It's wild, man. Wild.

I'm glad you are done trying to figure out what the PRs should be doing, though

[camn]

Why would you simply "Imply" such a thing if it is your position that "explaining your position" is good play?

[camn]

and.. sorry for the double...

Ort.. by "they" who exactly do you mean?
I hope you don't mean me.. because I feel I have explained my suspicions pretty thoroughly. Let me know if you are still confused.. . because I don't feel like I am being "subtle".

But.. if you AREN'T referring to me.. do you mean StrangerCoug? That's just one person.. not a "they".

So.. who is "they"?

[camn]

Agreed.

[camn]

PS..

I'll be out-of-range of computers until sunday.

thank you.

[camn]

Wow guys. I take a couple days off...

Anyway. This TCS wagon looks pretty bored-townie fueled to me.
TCS made a statement which, arguably, was craplogic.. and he deserved a couple votes for it.

The only problem was the votes

with no reason

.
Voting with no reason, IMO, isn't necessarily scummy... but it is poor play, and DESERVES retaliation.

SO.. in summary, the votes on TCS for craplogic were justified, and the votes for bandwagoning ALSO justified..
... But I get a null read on all of it.

It seems like we are spinning our wheels there.

SO.. back to the MEAT:
@ The Central Scrutinizer.
--- lets talk about these 4...
"the panda, the penguin, the fatty, and the bionic one."
Care to explain your suspicions on each?

[camn]

Thats how I feel.
My leading suspects?

afatchic
bionicchop2
Crazy
icemanE
orangepenguin
ortolan
Panda Stomper 85
StrangerCoug
The Central Scrutinizer
Xtoxm

I have cleared myself, obviously.. and I think KMD is PROBABLY clear.. but knowing destructor.. that is by no means absolute

Also.. I get a pretty town read off ONE of the above... but I don't ever see the angle in saying who I think is

town

...

[camn]

Camn im confused, who do you think is scummiest?

Now understand this.. I think EVERYONE is scum.
But my scummiest? these. Though I by no means am calling for their lynch at this time.

Xtoxm. - for saying "I don't like this wagon". I see scum say that all. the. time. To me.... attacking the wagon seems weird. Why not defend the person? Or attack the people ON the wagon? It always reeks of trying to look town. I know, "too townie" is not a scumtell.. but still.
ortolan - as discussed.
Panda Stomper - I also know that Lurking is a null-tell.. but I am pretty firmly in the Nuke-All-Lurkers camp. I know it's wrong, but it feels so good.

Now your turn, fatchic! Who, and why?

[camn]

camn, would you mind explaining how this relates to your previously posted list (195)?

I think everyone is scum right now. EVERYONE. that is how I play.
BUT... throwing out your top 3 is a good way to get conversation going. You should try it, too.

If you know it's wrong, then why do you do it?

It's because I hate lurkers more than I hate my own life. They wreck the game. I think in a Meta-sense it is totally worth it to lynch a few townie-lurkers in order to discourage lurking in general.
In TWO of my recent games the scum have lurked their way to victory because we have gotten SOFT!
RRR! Now I am all worked up!

VOTE PANDA STOMPER!!!

dieLurkersdie!!

[camn]

YOu are probably right, bionic.

I don't really have time to check when people's login dates were and such. I just react in fury to any lurking.

I would gladly lynch any lurker...
though orange.. I like replacing... especially, like, NOW.. early in the game.. but late in the game it just sucks.. and all lurkers must die.

unvote

Mod.. can we prod them?

[camn]

I like replacing... especially, like, NOW.. early in the game.. but late in the game it just sucks..

It was just a moment of fury.. and StrangerCoug provoked me!

Sorry about that. It WAS distracting.

[camn]

Its not an insistence.
Its a life choice.

Plus.. addition fail.

My top

three

suspects?
You/cammn/TCS. I don't really have a top suspect, but the

four

of you look kind of suspicious.

[camn]

a) nice post 254, Ort!

b) Double

FOS :Bio

for delaying/not playing along with this new guy's game...

but

c)

VOTE : Haschel Cedricson....

because.. wtf?
who replaces in and starts making demands?
You can demand bullet points just as well AFTER you tell us YOUR thoughts on things.
Weirdo.

[camn]

UNVOTE

What you were doing THEN merited a vote.. but I like what you have delivered since.
And it's no personality change. I just needed a third. And then the Coug got me all worked up.


@afatchic.. do you have any other suspects .. . other than OP?

[camn]

a lurker by any other name.......still should hang.

I'd rather see an OP lynch than Bio... on principle.

[camn]

OP.. do you have ANYTHING to say in your defense?

[camn]

+1 TCS.

[camn]

Yours is just as scummy as mine.

I write it so that Ice and X know it isn't just TCS who think that.
Maybe you think it is irrelevant, but I don't.
Maybe you haven't seen people blow off one person's opinion. But I have. I like it when people respond to things, and they are more likely to do so when there is a

+1!!

Now Bio, what do you think about X and Ice's posts?

[camn]

..

Vote, Orange Penguin

You are voting me based on craplogic.
Do I think TCS is scum? Yes.

This is all pretty accurate, I suppose, except maybe the part about me intentionally lurking, but for the sake of the coversation, I might as well have been.

If it is craplogic, then It isn't accurate. If you think he is scum, then don't agree for the "sake of conversation"!

I have never won a game before- every other time I was in lylo, I'd lose. I just got lucky.

Then why, pray tell, are you good for the town, even if you AREN'T scum?
Are you really saying.. "look, I am not any good at this game.. that is why I have been holding back"?

[camn]

Do you really need someone to answer this question for you?
......VOTE CAMN, why would you EVER want to lynch a townie, regardless of how distracting they may be?

@fatchic . . I don't really understand what you are asking.
I

don't

think he is town. That is why I voted him. I think he mounted a pretty poor defense, and is probably scum. I don't think he is distracting, either. In fact, he has kind of been the opposite. Like, avoiding attention.

And no, i don't need someone to answer that. It was mostly rhetorical. In an explaining-my-vote kind of way.

Which is what you should do. Explain your vote, that is. You made so little sense on that last post, I don't even know what to write....
What, PRAY TELL, is scum-tell #1.. and how did both Ort and I "hit" it? We are doing almost opposite things.


And PS.... there certainly are reasons to lynch townies.... but I don't think they apply here. They apply during the time period of

EVER

... but not here Going in to that kind of meta-discussion would be quite

distracting

.... so I think I won't.

[camn]

..... implies that you are not sure about his alignment, but want to lynch him regardless.

I'm not sure of anyone's alignment.
Except mine.
And KMD's.
And Bionic's, since I hid behind him last night and didn't die.

Are you, fatchic,

SURE

about MY alignment?

[camn]

Normally when you want a lynch, you are nearly positive they are scum.

.....

I never am "nearly positive"!!! I am SO happy if scum confess during twilight.. cuz then I don't have to bite my nails waiting for the mod-reveal!

It must be a nice planet, where you live.....

[camn]

Wow, Iceman. It is noce to see another relatively sane person here!

Guys, I'm feeling kind of stuck here.
I'm not really sure I see OP as scum, I don't like TCS as scum, I obviously don't like MYSELF as scum.....
And the deadline is creeping up.

TCS... can you answer Ice's questions in 341? I am interested in your view.

[camn]

re-Vote Orange Penguin.

see post 320.

Plus, his defense has gone no-where.
Plus, to break the 3-way stalemate.
Plus, TCS is really right!

[camn]

softclaim? Really?

[camn]

Hmph.

UNVOTE

Of course.. the deadline is right around the corner.

God I hate deadlines.

[camn]

Hmm, what? Didn't you do the same thing before this? How is this different than that?

I totally did. But I didn't understand it before.
But then someone explained it to me. . . and it totally made sense. . .
Coug posted AFTER that explanation. . . so he should have known better

But that is some ancient history, man.

Plus.. overdefensive IS scummy.
And Panda lurked his way to replacement. But it is true, I was consumed with fury back then. It was not an appropriate way to spend my time

[camn]

I'm willing to add some heat to that, given the QUICKLY approaching deadline.

VOTE ORTOLAN

I think my opinions on him are pretty well documented...
but the essence is this: I would rather see the Central Scrutinizer live than this guy. Plus, for pressure.
See, like, half of my posts for the rest of my argument.

[camn]

camn I am suspicious of your intense bandwagon hopping- on OP, off OP, on OP again,

I was never on/off/on... the mod just missed my vote, IIRC.

Plus, in the TCS vs. Ort deal.. I think TCS has brought better analysis, and is thus more USEFUL to the town.. . but this could change.
DO I think either are 100% scum? No. But the deadline is coming fast... we need to accelerate some stuff here!

[camn]

What makes you think that TCS is more pro-town than ortolan?

This is where it came from, Bionic.

[camn]

Oh!

Well that is easy to address.

When I voted for ort, TCS was the vote leader. I would rather see Ort hang than TCS. Though I stated that.
Afatchic asked why... limited to those two. Thats where my phrase "vs." came from.


other than that I am not really sure what you are asking!

>>back to class!

[camn]

I agree, Bionic.

And I am not committed to a lynch of either of them.

BUT.. I think in ANY case we need to get some votes out there, get some conversation going. THAT is what I mean to express by mentioning the deadline. That there is not a lot of time for discussion. . . . so lets do it!

c

[camn]

Sorry.. I am kind of rushed and distracted today.

I agree with this part
"Camn - you can see from my vote how easy it is to make a conscious decision to not just settle on somebody at the top of the list because of a deadline. "

[camn]

...

So... Sorry for the short posts earlier. I was trying to play and pay attention in class all at once!

This is probably subjective but I don't see it...do you think for example his fixation on OP/Haschel since the game started and with a clear lack of reasons is justified?

It is TOTALLY subjective.. and I don't really get that much of a 'fixation" read on him. But I am a VERY subjective player.

Now, My other suspects!

I think that Hascel has really cleaned up his initial scumminess, and totally is giving me a town vibe. So He doesn't get grandfathered onto my list in Panda's Place

Xtoxm is still on. I know it's redundant, but I have gotten really burned lately by SCUM not posting that much. I think it is common for the town to get fixated on people who are "actually playing" and they end up ignoring lurking scum.
And Xtoxm hasn't had more than , like, 2-line post since..... ever.
Anyway, minimal posting aside... he has a vote on Crazy for UNKNOWN reasons...

Still like my vote though, it's not random. To clarify, It is not in place for the reasons I originally stated.

He TWICE has simply disagreed with wagons, without any better Ideas or any input at all, really. I totally have seen scum do that just to look good after a mislynch.
BUT... although I would love to question him at length,
a) He is hardly around to answer.. and
b) I don't have time. You, Bionic, might think 3 days is a lot.. but I have finals next week... and I am flying to LA this weekend.. and I have ALREADY been playing mafia too much!! You guys are killing my test scores!

Plus I still like Ort.

Anyway.. thats my bottom line. I like Ort more than TCS. I would LOVE to see an Xtoxm Lynch.. but I don't have a case.. I would need to question him. . . and I don't have time for that.
So .. If we HAVE to settle for a deadline lynch... thats what I like.

Regarding ME... I am obviously town
I know I am not at L-1, but I PRACTICALLY am!...so you should know if I WASN'T a hider.. then I would be just a townie, and not particularly valuable . It would be better to mislynch me than to mislynch a power role.
Of course, finding scum would be better still!
And I consider myself pretty sharp in the endgame.
PLUS after finals, I have some free time!
That, sadly, is the extent of my defense!

I wish Ice and Crazy and Xtoxm were still playing!

[camn]

That means I like you for a lynch.

And my claim is because I am tied for a deadline lynch. Which is effectively L-1. And I am not going to have a lot of time to deal with things this week. . . so I thought I would throw it out there. It's easy when you are vanilla!

c

[camn]

I tend to agree with you about Ort, afatchic.... but I would have loved to see the defense come from him, rather than anyone else!

Oh well.

UNVOTE

. . for clarity.

...

Just did a quick read on TCS, though.. and I don't see him as scum. ...
I, of course, would rather see Xtoxm hang.. but we don't have the time.

I have a bad feeling about this day!

[camn]

... id be willing to be a couple of the scum are the ones that have "disappeared" lately with deadline coming up, so they get no more pressure and don't change the direction of the lynch. everyone knows that with as little info we have on a few of the players, a deadline lynch won't happen on someone not active to defend themselves.

That is SO true.
I hate deadline lynches.

[camn]

It is true that Ort's play has been better. But honestly.. my vote in post 381 was mostly for pressure, and to see Ort's reactions.
They weren't bad reactions. I would have liked more.. but meh.

Oh, and for forewarnings sake...
I will obviously vote TCS to save myself, given no changes. Even though i

think

he is probably town, I am

sure

about myself! so maybe-mislynch>definte-mislynch, IMO.
Also, I'll throw a vote at Xtoxm on principle.
I am even almost ready to OMGUS vote Crazy... since he is mega-lurking and his "case" against me sucks, but practically has me lynched anyway.

Hmm.

[camn]

whoa. Game dynamics question:
What happens at deadline?

I was assuming that whoever had the most votes got lynched ( which is why I consider myself practically L-1)
But you all are talking like deadline=no lynch ( which i have seen, too)..
Do we know which it is? I could easily have missed it...

[camn]

Wow.

So look.. @OP.. you are confirmed town at this point... but you basically are working for the mafia. The only information you can possibly give us is the identity of the HIDER, which will really only help the scum.

So... Don't. Please. Stop.

No more info from you! Keep looking for your OWN knowledge, because having a confirmed townie will help YOU.. but there is no real reason to tell the rest of us! Not till endgame, if you make it that far.

That said.. it is true, TCS was dead man walking.
Also, I agree almost entirely with afatchics summation.. which I know is lame.. but I am supposed to be studying!
Also.. just because I take notes and there is a hole in my spreadsheet.....@ BIONIC.... I have you down for hiding behind HC last night... but that obviusly didn't happen. You might have mentioned it, but who DID you hide behind?

[camn]

I dunno...

unless bio and Xtoxm are scum partners, (buckle in for some WIFOM) I doubt he'd say:

Bio has claimed Hider, clearing me and Camn.

...and even then, it would be a stupid move. I'm feeling Xtoxm as town now.

yeah i kinda agree... but i still don't see how it clears Camn.

I guess it doesn't, but if bio is the real hider, then it does.

[camn]

I am also against a no-lynch.

And I will hide behind Crazy!
It looks like no one else has.

so.. i think its:

Night 3
ortolan--->icemanE
camn -->Crazy
afatchic--->camn

[camn]

Hmm.

Counter claim, anyone?

[camn]

If you ARE scum, there would be no reason for the real hider not to come out now and blow your story to hell

So if you are out there... pls counterclaim!

PS,
I like Crazy and Xtoxm as scum.... Bionic I feel a little better about.
And I feel REALLY good about my Histo exam tomorrow!

[camn]

I'll

Vote Xtoxm

, though I am certainly FOR a Crazy Lynch, too. I just would like a little more discussion before I put him at L-1.

Also, quickly (before my test!) looking at both Xtoxm's and Crazy's posts in isolation... though they both are pretty out of the game... X seems a little MORE out of the game.. . thus less useful.

Plus, I kind of read his thing with bionic's so-called hiderclaim as a little forced. Maybe it's just me, but I got the impression he was hoping people would just let him declare that he (and I) were clear under hider-bionic. I don't know if it says anything about bionic if X flips scum... but it reads weird to me.

And yeah, bionic. The real hider has no reason not to claim at this point, if afatchic is scum. Thus, in the absence of a counterclaim, we can consider him clear. Given that, the logic is good.

[camn]

um...
1)+3 Xtoxm
2)+2 Crazy
3)+1 Bionic

Though this would be some pretty sweet distancing if Xtoxm and Bionic were the scum!

[camn]

This is the most Math-Driven mafia game I have ever played!

[camn]

How am I "under the radar"?

[camn]

I'm with you, OP.. I always bite my nails in twilight!
I like it when scum self-hammer, cuz then I can at least breath a little easier!

.....


.....

c

[camn]

checking in right quick...

I think Crazy is obv scum. He would have been killed if town.
I am ready to vote him.

I also can't see how Bionic isn't his partner.

Do we need any more discussion?

[camn]

I am perfectly willing! Though I don't totally LOVE being nightkilled.....

[camn]

I'm ready.

Vote Crazy

[camn]

Indeed.

Well played, fatchic.
You forced my hand on the Ortolan kill.
I figured you wouldn't actually hide behind him, but I couldn't afford the risk, and I really needed the double kill.

Here is our QT...
http://www.quicktopic.com/42/H/TK6GCW33xuVF
It is a little one-sided, but I like QT-review for game-enhancement purposes.

I was looking forward to battling Bionic, but sadly, the town could lynch us both at this point.

Congrads, town. I am sorry for my lies.

cameron

[camn]

Thank you for your kind words!

I think I could have used some less-lurker scumbuddies....... but I still got off on the wrong foot on this game.
School has proven more work than I anticipated.

[camn]

I feel kind of stupid for outing TCS like that. Not sure if the scum caught onto that before I pointed it out.

I had my suspicions.. but you were definitely the confirmation...

[camn]

A quicklynch is almost always scummy, even with a guilty verdict.

Discussion = information = win.

Limiting discussion almost always hurts the town.
Unless the scum have a daykill or something weird like that!

Just a question, fatchic....

did you NOT hide these last 2 nights? or did you target someone?
I couldn't figure out which was more likely.
I think NOT hiding.

c

[camn]

panda stomper picked you.... I dont know why!
I would have rather you lived, but considering how you rode me last game, I wasn't about to put up much of an argument!
Plus it was election day... and I had my party hat on.

I posted our QT.... not that it is very in depth!

[camn]

i like that KMD was somehow notable enough to draw that much attention.

What was it that made you choose him?