In post 2404, Grib wrote:Mafia’s PR claims are more powerful because town is expecting -something- to balance out Masons and a Vig.
Um, that's kinda backwards.
Masonx3 vs Goonx3 is considered balanced as an open setup, but in a closed is notably scumsided.
Macho Masonsx3 vs Goonx3 doesn't change the setup being scumsided. It makes it moreso.
A Complex Vig, with macho masons, necessitates that the scum must have at least one or two power roles--the vig becomes town because they can get a confirmed shot in, but if their targets were exclusively the town masons, then that would be trading the life of one conftown to have another conftown.
Ergo, four potential conftown in the game meant that the town wasn't going to have more power
on top of
that. It theoretically could have, depending on what the scum's roles were. Doctor worked in this game as a town role, IF the scum's roles were sufficiently strong enough to justify Doctor + Vig (Doctor can protect the vig) + masonx3.
But you had a Goon flip, which meant that the only way Doctor worked as a town role was if both mafia had insanely strong power roles.
Given the goon flip and the masons and complex vig, a town doctor would force the scum to spend three nightkills on the masons and then a fourth on the doctor before being able to hit the vig. Most mini normals don't even HAVE five nights, yet a doctor being town would require it unless the scum had a roleblocker or strongman to bypass the doctor protection and enabling them to take out the vig N4--which is still a hefty price to pay, mind you.
Mafia's PR claims are thus more likely to actually be mafia, because what are the mafia going to have to counter four conftown and then the mafia roles on top of all of that?
The mafia claims were claims that are
plausible
as being town roles in the setup--but they are not roles that should be treated as conftown when analyzing the setup especially not with a Goon flip. With a goon flip, it's confirmed not all three scum have power roles, which means limiting the complex vig targets further.
In post 2404, Grib wrote: I skimmed some of the recently completed mini normals and this felt like a really underpowered town in comparison.
I mean most mini normals are more townsided than they should be, so.
In post 2404, Grib wrote:I think I would’ve liked to see how the Doc-and-Masons only setup played out. Seems like Friends and Enemies with a little spice added.
The setup that would have been ludicrously scumsided compared to this one?
With just macho mason x3 vs mafia doctor, the setup is the Friends and Enemies setup as a closed (changing from open to closed inherently adds power to the scum), and then on top of that adding in a mafia role that makes the already-scumsided-as-a-closed setup even more scumsided?
The complex vig made the game less scumsided, not more.
That said,
This is also my stance.
In effect, complex vig with two mafia PRs is nearly identical to simple vig with only one scum PR for killing mafia, since the mafia doctor will always be able to protect a teammate and there will always be two theoretical targets for the vig to vig. So I don't think it would've made much of a difference from a role-interaction perspective. But from a player perspective, it's definitely possible the other way would've been better.
The main difference would be simple vig couldn't kill the masons and could kill more slots, which would have made the town stronger, but I feel that would've been too oppressive against the scum. It'd be a near-guarantee of four conftown rather than a simple chance of four conftown. (For a complex vig to become conftown, they need to target the 25% of the game that's a PR, and dodge the doctor protection. For a simple vig to become conftown, they need to target the 75% of the game that's not a PR, while dodging the doc protect. The latter is obviously 50% easier to achieve.)
