Mini Normal 2317 - Postgame

[KeyLaga]

Ya wow sorry I was studying so many Large's, I guess I mean its NORMAL old rules, sorry.

[KeyLaga]

I wish Kitty had come in but he didn't and I guess I just couldn't keep quiet once the good Doctor started tearing into me (I am sure quite justifiably).

[KeyLaga]

I felt I was risking my entire case getting buried -- I just couldn't let her get away with it.

[KeyLaga]

Yes I declared I would name them once I talked with Kitty. I also breadcrumbed the team and their associations with the Elements wagon.

[KeyLaga]

Kitty was scheduled to return tonight (by his previous posting).

[KeyLaga]

It is even possible that I can name all 3 scum (I am assuming there are 3) after we talk.

[KeyLaga]

have you played with Khaos before?

I have played Werewolf before but certainly not with him. I mean it should be clear why he is lhf, look at his first post after RVS. I mean I have some business to discuss with Kitty and she will be here in about an hour. All I am asking is not to force his claim until after that?

[KeyLaga]

*oops he sorry.

[KeyLaga]

Bingle if you are creating a wagon, why not team up with Eira, I notice he is also wanting to start one?

[KeyLaga]

Its within 5 posts they both launched wagon attempts.

[KeyLaga]

All I got. I better rest up for work tomorrow.

[KeyLaga]

I wish I could have just made a normal post but because it involves PR's I like couldn't.

Here is my logic dump:

A) Its not practical to believe that Elements' claim was a coincidence.

B) THEREFORE WE KNOW: The scum have received 1-3 Informed roles, which is why Elements DELIBERATELY fakeclaimed a KNOWINGLY FALSE Informed role, to draw out the genuine counter-claim.

1. The scum know what the counter-claim means, which is why Elements risked fakeclaiming.
2. We know that Elements is scum and exactly why they risked fakeclaiming but what is the most practical way to reveal this to the town?
3. I think I saw the two other scum in the space of 5 posts attempt to derail the Elements wagon.

[KeyLaga]

The missing piece is the PR's in that dump.

[KeyLaga]

Elements had a sizeable enough wagon on her. You two peeled out at virtually the same time span (5 posts apart) and created two separate wagons, stealing Gamma.

[KeyLaga]

So your advice is that it was likely just an accident, enough to allow for even a joke defense? Wow I sure don't see it that way but by now everybody knows how I feel about it though. I mean its not enough to say "scum would never do that" because clearly she has done that and she can be scum.

I wonder what people think the percentage is of town-Elements accidentally claiming Informed & scum-Elements deliberately claiming informed; I mean for me its at least 99% as no other explanation was offered than "it was a joke", ha ha.

Well I guess I will sit around and think of how to continue on here...

[KeyLaga]

Dewd, thank you for the heads up. Ya I plan on totally refocusing. First up in priority is to ISO Drew and try to read his entrance as his slot is completely null. I think we all need to here from Chell as well.

Maybe next is for me to ISO each player and get a fresh view. I can of course identify by list those are the most lurkey/non-commital. On that score I like Eira's uptick in activity, somehow they got very active recently but not sure why... :shrug:

Ok so my plate now is full with other things. Thanks for the great posting.

[KeyLaga]

Just need to state for the record that my push was pretty extreme and I need to re-adjust for the benefit of the game state and I am being very intentional and transparent about that.

[KeyLaga]

I have missed a lot, can somebody tell me what's been happening

Btw, did you figure out how to use the isolate button? How is that going?

[KeyLaga]

Ok the people with the very least input are:

Chell -- Flavor didn't leave too much to go one, he seemed rather subdued from other games I have seen him in, Chell has not yet caught up nor posted

Khaos -- Mostly inactive, no reads, single Vote for Bingle, expressed a desire to ISO players

Nurse -- Very few posts, single RVS push/Vote for Bingle, RVS queries -- nothing of substance recently -- well known maybe people have meta?

I am going to leave the "mid level low input" list for another time, it will just fall into my regular ISO review.

[KeyLaga]

@Gamma: No but we both have played Werewolf off site; we have never met virtually or otherwise. For me Werewolf was my first exposure to informed minority/shared chat day/night type games.

[KeyLaga]

I don't have Meta on Drew or anything but I read his entrance as organic & town, especially for his de-escalation attempts between Elements/Myself but without choosing sides; scum could have very easily and without suspicion pushed one side or another.

[KeyLaga]

Just requesting meta from anyone on Eira and their D1 behavior?

[KeyLaga]

In reality a few people have claimed to be Informed, Elements was apparently a loljoke.

I'm pretty sure I was also the one that claimed this game was based around players being informed too?

No I was.

.....

I am sorry, I am not pushing this case right now but this post cannot be overlooked.

[KeyLaga]

@Chell: You have highlighted what I believe to be the most difficult thing about playing mafia as town: The difference between performing actions that appear scummy & actually being scum. I can easily make a case for Khaos being scum for appearing like a lost scum in a thread/no reads nor purpose, active lurking & voting without reasoning/sheeping BUT all of this is nullified by players who are inexperienced. right? Its the great dilemma of the century.

However, this slot is going to be pressured by me soon due to being unresponsive which looks very much like inexperienced scum trying hide because they are new. I take it that this player has some actual experience in forum Werewolf and there is no excuse for this behavior.

ALSO: Kitty is my strongest town read, I posted to highlight the continued lying by Elements only to make it more prominent because it will likely be overlooked in the future.

[KeyLaga]

My query to him regarding his use of the ISO feature.

[KeyLaga]

There is no sense in trying to make associations prior to a flip, I mean we can't help but notice them and we should but to deliberately pursue them I have no taste for.

[KeyLaga]

I guess that this sentiment, which keeps me safe generally, was overridden with Elements because of my very high degree of certainty she was scum; thinking like this is psychologically like actually having a flip.

[KeyLaga]

I have missed a lot, can somebody tell me what's been happening

Btw, did you figure out how to use the isolate button? How is that going?

I have not figured out how to use the isolate button or had time.

Ok so its like this:
1) Scroll the page to the bottom and you see the big white reply box
2) Below that there is an Isolate Users button which is actually a dropdown menu
3) Select the player you would like to view in isolation
4) Press Ctrl-Click on the Go button and the isolate view of that player will appear in a new tab

[KeyLaga]

@Chell: For the purposes of the best lim, I lean towards your view regarding Khaos, even though I am old school and I don't buy the WIFOM regarding 147 -- a scummy looking vote is a scummy looking vote in my book. In my mind, there is a process called "Newbie Pass" which will override alot of things and as he starts to participate my view on his slot may change; still scummy lhf at the moment.

[KeyLaga]

The only post about this being a setup based around informed players

But like it doesn’t work if i claim it

So we're both informed about things we shouldn't claim.
Negative utility information?
Seems like a fun setup

Bro.

I am Informed of something that a Mass claim could catch a scum.

I’m sure that setup is balanced around it, but still

Me too, in a way.

I think the... theme of the game is being informed.

I'll say that this is why I was sus of Ele. A "joke" about being informed, in a game where there's a lot of informeds?

Ok apologies again but for sake of clarity, there is also this. Wow like this is Elements sound VERY serious and sincere. I had to post this because it shows Elements was not lying and Kitty was wrong about being the first one to claim the game revolved around Informed. To Be Clear: This looks WORSE for Elements because of the obvious "sincere tone" -- now this is DELIBERATE OBFUSCATION -- and why??

Now I am not pushing this case but I can't help it while iso-ing Kitty.

[KeyLaga]

you are playing around the IC like hyper aware scum

386 in particular almost never comes from town

the way you are approaching forming reads does not come from a townie trying to figure out the game, posts like 626 are appeals to the crowd and performances in that almost all of your sorting happens in your posts and you spell out a lot of thoughts that town would leave unspelled out because they already went through them

Dang, this is the exact read I get from Eira in iso! Here are my notes:

queries Celeb, "who can we push safely"/Myself flips no worse than a VT = sounds like scum reads/concerns -- speaks to Celeb like a victim

I find it amazing someone else sees these tonal things; I thought I might have been the only one. Naer believes your slot was leaning town due to overall lack of engagement; this push and mindset reinforces that view.

Update: Chell-Flavor slot moved to solid town for sincere scum hunting.

[KeyLaga]

Out is also my second strongest townread (or maybe now tied with Chelle!?). So since I am grounded at the moment with Elements:

VOTE: Eira

[KeyLaga]

Holy crap is that an accidental hammer??

[KeyLaga]

Caught scum-lurking is the most prominent feature of my thoughts on Eira; faking a catch-up and then not even trying to answer the question posed = scum coasting.

[KeyLaga]

That scum tone with Celeb it feels like umm, like how do I put it into words, scum-creepy I think.

[KeyLaga]

Because I hate D1, I have a pass for coasting; I cannot buy this.

[KeyLaga]

I support Khaos' logic and stance regarding Eira; firmly resisting wagoning on something he doesn't believe in -- this is a town mindset.

@Khaos: Can you re-read everyone's posts on Eira and comment?

[KeyLaga]

Ok you can use the pages down at the bottom right, where we are on Page 32 (in red) and I dunno, I would start maybe Page 29, just click the 29 square and look around. I will go research it and post the exact link to the beginning.

[KeyLaga]

You COULD iso Chell and find it, then click the POST NUMBER (in white, like "784") to get into the thread again.

[KeyLaga]

Start Of The Case On Eira

[KeyLaga]

Please expand this concept. Meta sources would be much appreciated. There is much about this case that gives me the "we have scum for realz this time" vibes, like the deep ones, where I don't want to let go.

[KeyLaga]

At this point it looks like we have a middle-level scum coaster which I think is what we want; I mean he is not like a lurker because IRL but an actual deliberate coasting player who approached Celeb like a wolf before its next meal.

[KeyLaga]

I will cover my early RVS case on him. The townlocking was weird and looked performative/over-compensative and so when my weak (but it was something at least) push on Bingle was over after he revealed his experience, the only other push available was Eira and so I voted because the townlocks. Then it suddenly hit me! He just townlocked the last 3 remaining players that had not yet posted! Furthermore, the post was so natural as he cracked a joke and I immediately withdrew.

I don't see why he takes offense at this since he knows why he townlocked those players and he could clearly see that I knew; so I think he is using it as a disingenuous excuse.

[KeyLaga]

This is more of what I don't like about Eira, the behavior that is not genuine (faking a catchup) and then when we do see genuine behavior it looks like he just bathed in the scum PT ("You're going to die Celeb but its OK, lets try a safe case").

[KeyLaga]

Faked Catchup: All Caught Up but 3 minutes later: WHOOPS

Creepy Celeb Encounter: You're going to die but maybe you'll live if you don't try too hard

[KeyLaga]

@Khaos: Ya bussing is the name for it. I guess it makes sense to examine the people on the wagon to try and get an idea of its quality but for me, I would always want to balance it with my own views. I want to be responsible for what I see and do. Have you asked Chell why she asked you if you wanted to vote Eira?

[KeyLaga]

Wow that's weird that he appears quite townie there.

[KeyLaga]

Omgosh he was townie because he was town LOL!

[KeyLaga]

Based on what I can see so far of his meta, his tone is definitely off this game compared to what I am seeing elsewhere like in: viewtopic.php?t=67027

[KeyLaga]

Seems like the most recent meta & the oldest (both town) show a much more communicative Eira. Finding a scum game tho....

@Eira: Any chance you have a scum game you can share?

[KeyLaga]

I'm banned from Elements for 48 hours. XD

I just don't understand their behavior.

I am still in the middle of your ISO, nice posting!

[KeyLaga]

Tell me it ain't so Gamma!?

[KeyLaga]

Yes and I was being snarky because there's a few people who dislike D1 and basically don't play it on this site AND if you are telling me its so, that means ITS SO!
I think you have been in every game I have looked at, even ones that are in signup. XD

[KeyLaga]

See I am still stalking you!

[KeyLaga]

Actually though its really Flavor, yourself and a few others like CCS, Naer and such.

[KeyLaga]

Caught scum-lurking is the most prominent feature of my thoughts on Eira; faking a catch-up and then not even trying to answer the question posed = scum coasting.

No caught scum lurking is the foolish ploy you tried to pull on me when the game was barely 48 hours and i've barely put on my rvs crocs
and then u backed down like a kid starting a fire in a rocket factory
and now you're back on with your manufac reasons cos u feel enough town has piled on for u to have obscurity
so you're dusting off the old swords which i could so easily have broken
the flawed blade of 'oh hey this perspon isnt spamming the fuck out of this game all the time from the start. LETS VOTE EM!!!!!'

So

If i were scum coasting here i'd have joined elements on u long long ago

I'm sorry. I have to respond to this because the record needs to be validated. I am still not caught up from last night but this post I will respond to immediately.

No caught scum lurking is the foolish ploy you tried to pull on me when the game was barely 48 hours and i've barely put on my rvs crocs

ORLY? You actually want RVS to last 48 hours?? And you are using that as an excuse? Engaged town players use RVS to form reads and catch scum, what were you doing? Scum want to prolong RVS because it is a natural state of confusion for town and they are most easily able to manipulate it, I'm just sayin'.

and then u backed down like a kid starting a fire in a rocket factory

This is patently false. Anyone can review my early ISO and see my push on you & exactly how you behaved, I actually gave you town points for your first RVS entry post for the reasons explained specifically yesterday and yet instead of recognizing it, you are using it as a weapon against me? Tell us all then right now, Why Did You Townblock Those Players? QED

and now you're back on with your manufac reasons cos u feel enough town has piled on for u to have obscurity

Just an explanation here. I was ISO'ing Kitty and had already ISO'ed you and got serious scum vibes which is why I asked for meta yesterday. As I returned to the thread from one of the Kitty ISO dives, I noticed a large amount of posting and found that Chell had mind-melded with me on my scum vibes of yourself. THATS how I entered your wagon and not how you have described it.

I don't need to respond to the rest but it should be clear that we don't have a town-engaged Eira in this game and not just from his meta but from actual play; he couldn't remember what happened 3 PAGES AGO, after completing a catchup? Does that sound like someone who is trying to catch scum? When someone posts a town block in thread, don't you look at it and try to discern the alignment of the poster based on your own views? Aren't you naturally (as town) interested in the concept of a town block? But Eira here couldn't even recall it 3 pages ago AFTER A SUPPOSED CATCHUP. This is because as scum, he didn't catch up to anything except his private PT with his bretheren.

[KeyLaga]

Creepy Celeb Encounter: You're going to die but maybe you'll live if you don't try too hard

this is a direct lie btw and a good example of KeyLaga's lazy push strat on Eira

I know u wanna play but the more dangerous u become the more utility your role has.
Sure scum takes our inno but they miss prs. And if we got a watcher or adjacent role...

Eira is saying exactly the opposite: If Celebloki tries hard today/gets a good elim and dies tonight that's +town.
The other two scenarios being:
1. Celebloki doesn't try hard but still dies n1, less use
2.Celebloki doesn't try hard and scum keep him alive till near the end. worst case scenario.

I'm cautioning everyone to think very carefully here
Don't get lost in the sauce because this game is moving 2 fast.

I am inclined to be supporting this post as I am catching up here. I will be re-evaluating once I have caught up.

[KeyLaga]

I realize called other players out based on light fluff posting is the pot calling the kettle black, but I'll hide behind my mod confirmation for now.

See yourself leading a lim on kaos today?

I know u wanna play but the more dangerous u become the more utility your role has.
Sure scum takes our inno but they miss prs. And if we got a watcher or adjacent role...

If not kaos who do you think we can push safely?
Pedsonally i think key doesnt flip worse than a vt

First off let's look at the entire post.

Secondly, Eira I hope you don't mind me calling you that? Its not like a hidden insult or anything is it? I find it most convenient, breaking your name down to a melodic two syllables.

Ok, I actually have to buy the Eira's logic in that post. The only thing I still question about it is the statement, "If not kaos

who do you think we can push safely?

". With the exception of that statement, I actually see a town mindset from Eira, in trying to motivate Celeb to be active.

On the "push safely" statement, I see a scum mindset, this is how scum think. Town will say "who do you think is most likely scum?". Therefore, even though alot of my thoughts on this post I am now formally re-canting, I don't like that last statement as it is clearly scum-thinking.

Furthermore, I have a personal theory as to why Eira was so motivated to get a wagon started but meh, won't be talking about that today or tomorrow or not maybe ever in this game.

[KeyLaga]

OBSTEREPEROUS:

noisy and difficult to control

Don't like this kind of play because it helps scum, generally speaking. It causes confusion and doubt in town.

[KeyLaga]

ISO UPDATE

Bingle -- suspects Gamma, but queries her on joining Nurse/Khaos/Naer wagon but votes Khaos, Votes Eira without explanation deliberately -- a very difficult player to read, don't think I like interactions regarding the Eira wagon; i.e. inconsistent viewpoint as discussed with Dr. Drew.

Eira -- queries Celeb, "who can we push safely"/Myself flips no worse than a VT = sounds like scum reads/concerns -- speaks to Celeb like a victim, calls myself VT execution target, claims himself inactivity is not a deep case, ***need meta info***, Meta shows Eira's tone/play is off this game.

Gamma -- very low key player but active and willing to take stances -- might be hard to read as scum, might always townread her -- have to continue to track her actions to become more certain about leaning townread.

Kitty -- mechanically town, very organic & town focused player, consistent with their actions, reads & posts.

Naer -- Consistently taking stances, defending/calling out players, the only thing missing is developed case reasoning, enough tracking available to allow as town leaning read.

OutWorld -- Very town focused, will need to re-focus to regain status, very town read.

This is a rough description kind of off the cuff but completes my ISO reads of all players, where the completely "meh" players were listed separately, earlier yesterday.

Edited to remove banned word.

- Alianna

[KeyLaga]

Throw a bone to Elements though. I am a huge fan of the classic vet player Fate who was exponentially OBSTEREPEROUS. Once saw a game with him as scum in lylo, all of the rude behavior was completely gone, he was like the most rational player on the planet as he massaged the winning vote from a town player.

[KeyLaga]

I don't think anyone likes Elements' wagon behavior this game.

[KeyLaga]

Chel's Case On Eira Post #1: Not Town Post
Chel's Case On Eira Post #2: Not Town Post

Also, just noting for the record that Chel's vote for Eira was deliberately not counted by the Mod due to not being in Vote Tags nor even bolded.

[KeyLaga]

Naer's Case On Eira #1: No Reads, Passive-Aggressive
Naer's Pleas For Help On Eira: First & Second

[KeyLaga]

I think Chell just likes voting for the IC.

Just Sayin'

[KeyLaga]

[KeyLaga]

CELEBLOKI PLEASE DO NOT REVEAL IF YOU ARE INFORMED PLEASE!

[KeyLaga]

Maybe later there will be a time to discuss this before this day ends. Right now, I consider this issue rolefishing.

[KeyLaga]

Its OK Chell, just keep being your townie self, and I will be my towny self and I am sure things will be working out.

[KeyLaga]

Outworlder

-- RVS entrance explosive, sincere querying of existing wagons/players, posits game theory of Bingle-scum, suspects Favor; fearless & strong town

Does this help enough or shall we go post by post for each point?

[KeyLaga]

Thanks Eira! Btw, I assure you that I have no active alts on this site.

[KeyLaga]

VOTE: Doctor Drew

[KeyLaga]

Outworlder

-- RVS entrance explosive, sincere querying of existing wagons/players, posits game theory of Bingle-scum, suspects Favor; fearless & strong town

Does this help enough or shall we go post by post for each point?

Furthermore, just ISO the guy. To me its more than clear that he is a skilled & motivated townie seeking scum, pushing cases, querying players and positing theories, just like yourself. The only problem right now is that he is taking a break and will need to re-focus; seeing his relatively extensive experience, I expect him to come back strong, relatively soon.

[KeyLaga]

I mean its a little rough to come up with 4 scum in a 13 player game, right? I mean I'm only town and so I only know so much. Due to POE I think that Khaos is town and also I will give him some townie points for what appears now to be a sincere attempt to play this game properly, as a townie would.

Don't really think Chell outright called Out scummy (I think this is a misrep) but only mentioned him in connection with an unflipped association (I am not a fan of this and avoid it wherever possible, noting "natural" unflipped associations that I perceive but definitely limiting them beneath actual reads on individual players).

Everyone in this game knows (for good or bad) how I feel about Elements being scum. Due to POE, I only have questions really about Bingle, being able to give Gamma & Naer town passes for now; if/when you flip scum Naer will definitely become strong town.

[KeyLaga]

@Out: Do not worry sir! You have my protection and as much time as you need!

[KeyLaga]

Just for the record, I believe that Eira is in AtE/Pocketing mode and if it were me, I would avoid being taken in, at least just yet...

[KeyLaga]

Nice question Eira. I can't really go into much detail on my Elements case, due to a ban on this for about the next 36 hours or so BUT here's what we know:

Elements lied about being informed
Elements lied about joking about being informed & tried to appear as organic townie enjoying the Informed theme
Elements forced a counter-claim from one of our town power roles
Elements is not playing this game as a townie, randomly wagoning and really revealing nothing; NOTE: I do not put very much stock in player lists with no explanations associated with them, even a child can do that.

I think this about as much as I can get away with at the moment because as it is, this post risks causing this thread to once again devolve into a warzone! XD

[KeyLaga]

Man the AtE/Pocketing is Strong with this one...
Help me Obi Wan?

[KeyLaga]

Even though tempted, I will not interfere in this scuffle; let them fight it out -- I hope nobody gets hurt. O_o

[KeyLaga]

@Naer's Eira Case: As far as the NoLim, the worst/best I could give you would be IOA points -- doesn't count for much but its all there is because there is no way that you could possibly sway town on this issue.

[KeyLaga]

What I mean is NoLim is not going to happen in a million iterations and so at best its IOA as far as a case issue.

[KeyLaga]

Mod Fight!!!

@Gamma, ya I guess when we are ready, we will have to cross this bridge and you really do make an excellent point: Who better to do it with than the IC!?

I do remember what caused me to make that post too and I certainly will not be forgetting it, regardless if I am "ignored" or not.

[KeyLaga]

NOTICE: I am starting to lean towards a stronger town read of Gamma but I am not sure I have actually arrived there or not.

[KeyLaga]

@Celeb: You know I have always been protecting you bro from the moment this game started.

[KeyLaga]

You embody The Town and all the townies within it.

[KeyLaga]

@Naer: 245 just finished! Of course I had Flavor pegged as town for his interactions with town but like you said, he ended up being scum! Excellent read!

[KeyLaga]

IIRC, he bussed Smiley in the hood and went on to win.

[KeyLaga]

Right so I was reading him in reverse! God help of us if he should figure out to reverse!

[KeyLaga]

In this game he did claim IRL shifts from the deep dark fiery place. :/

[KeyLaga]

Man the AtE/Pocketing is Strong with this one...
Help me Obi Wan?

[KeyLaga]

Wagon Analysis: Naerys, (town) KeyLaga, (town) Doctor Drew (town) , Chell (town)

The scum are not participating in this wagon, at all (imo). I believe that this is partially why this wagon has stalled.

Interesting fact about wagon speed analysis is that the town can achieve lim with no help from scum. So its the Moderately Popular wagons that scum can influence with their participation, bringing them to mis-lim. All popular wagons go to lim regardless of scum participation.

So what I think what we have here is a Moderately Popular wagon which the scum have not chosen to participate in?

[KeyLaga]

The wagon lusty Elements will wagon ANYONE but not Eira huh!? HOLY CRAP! Notice that!? The King Wagoner of this game, Mr. "Bring Everyone To L-1 D1" is silent on this freaking wagon!!

LET'S LIM THIS WITH FIRE!!!

[KeyLaga]

OH no I am mod killed. I meant They not MR. :'(

[KeyLaga]

Hopefully since their pronoun is "they" I can't be faulted for using both Mr. or Miss, right??

[KeyLaga]

Letter rip E, hammer it now!

[KeyLaga]

ohhh... I didn't know sorry.

[KeyLaga]

LOL Mod Win!

[KeyLaga]

HAMMER IT E GO NOW!

[KeyLaga]

LOL you said you were gonna hammer, waats up with that?? XD

[KeyLaga]

Everyone Take Note: Elements was all over that Eiras wagon from the moment it took hold & made all sorts of votes BUT NOT EIRAS THE WAGON. What happened to their wagon lust E-1 everyone?? I mean you can literally go back to when the wagon started and see them posting AND VOTING all over the place but no vote for Eira THE WAGON!? Wow suddenly quite atypical for Elements huh?

Well that's good maybe they are changing their wagoning ways? LOL of course not, now they want to vote Out (lol not going to happen) -- why did I have to drag Elements out kicking and screaming to vote Eira? I mean I'm just asking...

[KeyLaga]

Intent to hammer

[KeyLaga]

I mean I was just trying to get a fake hammer out of them but the page top (which they actually asked for btw) votecount ruined it.

[KeyLaga]

You mean getting them to L-1?

[KeyLaga]

OK, so what took them so long? Do you need me to count the hours, the overnight, where not vote occurred for Eira?

[KeyLaga]

I mean obviously you agree and are kind of humorously trolling in the sense that ya he accomplished their L-1 mission finally but I mean look at the wagon behavior with all the other wagons, no hesitation, any wagon will do they vote it -- obviously you see it lol but ya they accomplished their mission. lol

[KeyLaga]

*they

[KeyLaga]

20 minute smoke break please make sure there are no accidental hammers.

[KeyLaga]

Don't worry L-2 was OK. If somebody came up and voted L-1, then stepping out would make sense while the town convened about the potential of claim

[KeyLaga]

Btw https://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/forum.mafiascum.net <<<< please bookmark this for everything that is good and wholly

[KeyLaga]

Ya ikr? Where have I been all their life??

[KeyLaga]

Eiralox - The arrogance and aggression seem like a personality thing, not an alignment one, which is why I see them being pushed at the moment. I have feelings about their treatment of me being weirdly unconcerned with pocketing, but that's also not really how I expect scum Eiralox to treat me. Notably, I think:

idk i doubt we got masons maybe i think early i figured laga can be bussing bingle, nothing solid

Is the towniest thing Eiralox has posted. Scum Eiralox who is speculating on me/Key being secretly masons doesn't post "ERMAGERD THEY MIGHT BE MASONS" but Town Eiralox who is speculating that me/Key might be setting up for a fake mason gambit would absolutely do the thing.

Wow man can I have some of what you've been smoking?

[KeyLaga]

I think Bingle outdid himself because of the strain lol

[KeyLaga]

Its OK Gamma we love you!

[KeyLaga]

Well ya I mean its kinda like I play the way I want to play and if anyone comes around and tries to tell me how I should be playing, I will just kinda tell them to Shove Off!

LOL

[KeyLaga]

I think that might just be the Whiskey Pocket though, just sayin'

[KeyLaga]

Well you know, what works, works -- right!?

[KeyLaga]

Mafia can't help it. it has to give us those time of great hilarity! XD

[KeyLaga]

But in all seriousness(Whiskey Pocket or not), a person really does have to wonder how Elements could even go... wait, let me just show you:

Wagon Start: 08 Nov 2023 15:12
Elements Vote: 09 Nov 2023 18:07

Dang that's so long I need a calculator, one sec...

Dang man, that's TWENTY-SEVEN HOURS WITHOUT VOTING A MAJOR WAGON!

Seriously, look at Elements' voting history this entire game and tell me that ANY wagon pops up and they don't immediately vote it, right? MUCH LESS, wait TWENTY-SEVEN HOURS!!!

So, I mean it just makes a person wonder, I mean doesn't it??

[KeyLaga]

Ahh but the Whiskey Pocket is good though, just sayin'

[KeyLaga]

I think Elements has some confessions to make but I think they might want a private thread for that, will that work because you're the IC?

[KeyLaga]

You know, things that are Alignment Indicative should be private, shouldn't they?

[KeyLaga]

That's right dewd take it to the mother fucking bank!

[KeyLaga]

Coughing up half a lung over here! XD

[KeyLaga]

It's alright, BE ALIGNMENT INDICATIVE, You're the IC, YOU'VE EARNED IT!

[KeyLaga]

LOL Celeb was asking for confessions from any scum and I was trying to set up a private thread for Elements.

[KeyLaga]

You know they went 27 hours without voting a major wagon right? So I mean I just figured they had some things to get off their chest?

[KeyLaga]

Ya but you're not the IC, I mean they have pull with the Mod don't they?

[KeyLaga]

I mean you know the IC is Alignment Indicative, right?

[KeyLaga]

Aww man! Next you're gonna tell me you can't set up private threads?

[KeyLaga]

I'm serious, Alignment Indicative should count for something!

[KeyLaga]

That's right Gamma! Our IC is Alignment Indicative and don't you forget it!

[KeyLaga]

OMGOSH I think I am coughing up a full lung now lol

[KeyLaga]

Yes, the Alignment Indicative Hammer Of Celeb shall not be tainted!

[KeyLaga]

I mean Elements just didn't wan't to wagon right? I mean give them a break, right? Ya, OK.

[KeyLaga]

Ok, Dr. Drew is in here now, he can probably give me something to help with my Whiskey Pocket

[KeyLaga]

Wow well ya I have to agree with you of course, I mean especially because they had 27 hours to vote the Eira wagon and its like it was invisible to them or something; I just don't know what to say, I mean maybe they were charging their car or something, right?

[KeyLaga]

Don't worry though, its not Alignment Indicative, that would require a private thread.

[KeyLaga]

Ya I think the Eira wagon was just invisible; that has to be the reason.

[KeyLaga]

Wait maybe it was just "E-1 For Everyone Except Eira" and he just forgot to tell us?

[KeyLaga]

I mean sometimes the town just needs a little push from scum to get things done and wouldn't you know it, there was no scum to be found for this wagon! :'(

[KeyLaga]

Ok that's fine and everything but I have a couple of FACTS that should be considered:

1) Elements did not show up until IMMEDIATELY after they were specifically called out for not voting the Eira wagon (for 27 hours mind you).
2) On no other wagon throughout this whole D1 did Elements wait for any special conditions; they voted immediately for every wagon that formed
3) Elements had to charge their car

[KeyLaga]

"E-1 FOR EVERYONE!" (except Eira).

[KeyLaga]

Like I said, if the reason is Alignment Indicative, I am sure we can make arrangements for a private thread so Elements can relive their burden in private

[KeyLaga]

Oh wait! I just realized! I think they already have a private thread! OK! So I guess our work is done here and I can rest in peace. See you all in the morning!

[KeyLaga]

Gamma, that's a great question!

@Eira: Will you help us wagon Elements?

Just askin'

[KeyLaga]

@Khaos: Ok, so by now I guess you have been able to ISO players, you can post a read least of:

1) All the players
2) The players that stand out to you the most
3) Your top 2-3 town reads and top 2-3 scum reads

When you post something from 1-3, its good to include some information about your thought process with each player. Sound good?

[KeyLaga]

@Gamma: I think using the lack of wagoning from Elements on the Eira wagon, is not the best course of action because it is an association without any flips; don't get me wrong, I think Elements is scum and we should lim them but in order to PROVE that Elements' actions regarding the Eira wagon are SPECIFICALLY scummy, a flip from Eira is actually required (imo).

It seems the Elements slot keeps accumulating these "bizarre coincidences" for some reason. : shrug :

[KeyLaga]

LATEST "COINCIDENCE": There appears to be NO scum on the Eira wagon (imo) and amazingly the King Of Wagons, E-1 For Everyone, Elements just somehow failed to vote this wagon for 27 hours and only did so when specifically called out, when their "normal" behavior was to: "See Wagon, Vote Wagon" with no prompting required.

[KeyLaga]

Well Eira you have an out, you can wagon Elements, I believe you will have popular support?

[KeyLaga]

If you are actually town (somehow) then help us lim the other major suspect we have; LET'S WIN THIS TOGETHER AS TOWN!

[KeyLaga]

TRIVIA TIME!

Who can name Eira's voting history?

"ME ME!"

VOTE: OutWorldER
VOTE: Naerys x6!!!
VOTE: KeyLaga
VOTE: Doctor Drew

Hmm, no vote for Elements ever huh? Wow that Naer series of votes REALLY sticks out with 6 total independent votes for Naer. Hmmm. This is kinda weird because I'm think who it was that was suspecting Naer... I KNOW there was someone else, I just just can't seem to remember who it was... I think maybe its because I lost my Whiskey Pocket.

Its OK through, maybe I will remember later.

[KeyLaga]

@Khaos: Ok, so by now I guess you have been able to ISO players, you can post a read least of:

1) All the players
2) The players that stand out to you the most
3) Your top 2-3 town reads and top 2-3 scum reads

When you post something from 1-3, its good to include some information about your thought process with each player. Sound good?

Okay, I'll start working on it when I'm not busy anymore.

Wow ya IRL busy totally sucks. So what's up, what's going on out there?

[KeyLaga]

Well Eira you have an out, you can wagon Elements, I believe you will have popular support?

Don't need an out I've stopped taking you seriously a long time ago.

Please, let's not end it like this! If you die and we have not reconciled, I don't know what I shall do!
Can't we work together as a team? Please, don't go to the grave like this!

[KeyLaga]

VOTE: OutWorldER
VOTE: Naerys x6!!!
VOTE: KeyLaga
VOTE: Doctor Drew

this is a town voting history

ROFL! Ok, no need for ME to defend this BIZARRE statement for Elements. I will just let the town respond. lol

[KeyLaga]

OFFICIAL NOTICE OF BAN OF KEYLAGA FROM ELEMENTS, STILL IN EFFECT FOR 8 HOURS

[KeyLaga]

because that's been going so well

>:D< <3

[KeyLaga]

Time until thread death
(expired on 2023-11-10 21:01:00)

Meh.

Methinks someone will intervene to extend the ban but maybe not; the townsfolk may revolt and demand your head?

[KeyLaga]

Chell: I hold as strong fearless town. Her entrance to this game yesterday was entirely organic, genuinely querying players and scum hunting their ISO's AND I MEAN SINCERELY -- the way she sorted me was extremely "town trying to probe & understand key behavioral traits". We have mind-melded on Eira-scum despite having two completely different views (which is VERY strong regarding the quality of the Eira Case)

Naer: She is very much a subdued player but this is not necessarily scummy -- in my sorting of this slot, I have found intelligent and cognizant views regarding players and game events; in fact things that I hadn't even noticed because I am simply a player with an operative ego that will be blind because of my will to perceive. She IS taking stances, defending certain players when necessary & calling out others. Her participation on the Naer wagon I find genuine, even though it lacks the traditional "build a case" style. In the end, I believe she is leaving readable tracks for which she can be held responsible and when/if Eira flips scum, she will be a very strong town read in my book.

Laga: This guy is clogging up the thread with all sorts of crazy posts. His early day cases on Bingle were absolutely horrid, lacking logical coherency. His 1v1 with Elements has sapped everything good out of this game and he had to be forcibly restrained from posting his wild theories concerning elements for the good of this game. Now he pushes the Eira wagon which is really just a veiled extension of his wild theories anyway. With all of this overt game manipulation, he is a strong scum read and even if he is not scum for some bizarre reason, he really should be the D1 lim for the good of this game and the players within it.

I hope these reads help. Please note that they are published under the "Free For Public Use" licensure and may used for any public or private purposes, without restriction. Copying and pasting directly into cases/reads is completely permitted.

[KeyLaga]

Yes I thought I would throw Team Scum a bone on how to attack me. They haven't really been doing to well so far -- maybe its because they know I'm town and just lack the conviction? So I figured they needed some help.

[KeyLaga]

Not me.

[KeyLaga]

I think we should all crush these scum like grapes. I believe we are all well on our way. They don't seem to be very effective in stopping us too.

[KeyLaga]

I think you just voted Naer for the 7th time, do you read her as lhf?

[KeyLaga]

Ma'am I thought Elements was voting Out? Am I wrong?

Fixed

[KeyLaga]

Ok Eira, you said you were working up an Elements case so, I am looking forward to seeing it.

[KeyLaga]

@MOD(S): Yes I was wrong, Elements is voting (??? whoah surprise!) Naer.

[KeyLaga]

Very clever. They have used the sincere push from Out to form a wagon in his absence. Ok town, I think we all need to pull together and recognize the game state and realize that Naer is not the best lim for today? I certainly won't be voting her and when you compare her ISO to Eira's, I think its pretty clear who the stronger scum candidate is.

[KeyLaga]

I don't know why but this VC of this wagon sticks out to me. In fact, I like it so much I think I will frame it and hang it in my living room:

Naerys (4): Bingle, OutWorldER, Eiralox, Elements

I am seriously at a loss for why I seem to like it so much; maybe its something in my subconscious?

[KeyLaga]

Yes I believe you are indicating scum case shopping.

[KeyLaga]

Sometimes the scum try and mislim for dear life. Has anyone ever seen that in their games?

[KeyLaga]

VOTE: Elements
This or Chell are my immediate suspects I wish to vote out currently

You are in EXCELLENT company Gamma!
Elements (1): KittyTacky

[KeyLaga]

Wow Elements I had no idea Naer was being so devious in my regard! I thought we had excellent townie relations but now you reveal she is secretly planning to kill me!? Wow I am filled with paranoia now!

NOT!

[KeyLaga]

vote KeyLaga

Truly scum this game, everyone must agree!

[KeyLaga]

You can fault elements tho! They REALLY DID TRY! XD

[KeyLaga]

*can't

[KeyLaga]

I suppose being killed by envelope would hurt

Death by 1000 cuts? OUCH! >.<

[KeyLaga]

That KeyLaga case is pretty though with the colors and everything and very well done format. Thank you Elements for providing a VERY nice looking post into this thread!

[KeyLaga]

Making a large number of posts isnt AI. Check large 244 where Flavor and Virgo made HUGE number of posts. Both were town.

How dare you criticize my scum case against myself!?

Wow though excellent point and in truth, I must agree with you. However, scum CAN use this technique to control town. I personally would never do this intentionally as scum because its kinda sick; like using IRL issues as part of the game, like almost abusing the game, you know?

[KeyLaga]

Ya Elements and I do feel bad about this too, I REALLY DO; this is why I included it in my scum case against myself. However in my own actual defense I will share how I see it regarding any player that is seen doing this:

There is a fluff/noise:content ratio. If someone's has a high fluff ratio, they should be mod-killed or policy limmed. However, if they have quality content and their fluff is low compared to it, it needs to be accepted.

Granted, I won't have a perfect win because I have offput town due to my voluminous posting and I accept your criticism from the heart. I actually intended to only post once every 24 hours and enter the thread when something important needed to be discussed but it just didn't work out that way and so I am sorry to everyone, sincerely.

[KeyLaga]

@Key
When I flip town, and when/if Eira flips town, where do you go from there?

Are you claiming there is a Janitor in this game? I don't think they are allowed in Normal games.

[KeyLaga]

There is a fluff/noise:content ratio. If someone's has a high fluff ratio, they should be mod-killed or policy limmed. However, if they have quality content and their fluff is low compared to it, it needs to be accepted.

Just gonna quote this

I love you too! Ain't Mafia fun though?

[KeyLaga]

@Key
When I flip town, and when/if Eira flips town, where do you go from there?

Are you claiming there is a Janitor in this game? I don't think they are allowed in Normal games.

???
What about that post suggests Janitor?

I was joking with Elements. They are trying to play on my townie uninformed weakness.

[KeyLaga]

I guess I could be a Day Cop though right?

[KeyLaga]

Oh btw PLEASE nobody counter-claim -- I was only totally joking lol

[KeyLaga]

ORLY? Please point to me in the Queue or in the Wiki where Janitor appears as a possible role in Normal games? If you can do that I will Lim myself. kthxbai!

[KeyLaga]

Technically I do not (and in principle it can be said that nobody should) have to answer a theoretical.

However, I will indulge you and simply say that I do not believe you will flip anything other than scum and have not thought about any other possibility. I think its important to use one's mental energies in constructive thinking and going on about "gosh what if they flip town" and every other possibility under the sun in the game, isn't a constructive use of those energies.

I do my best to nail scum every time and reassess if it doesn't work out.

[KeyLaga]

Unless you would like to time travel with me, I guess I can't answer that question other than I have.

[KeyLaga]

And don't get me wrong. I have sorted you all game long and at one point you were in my townlist. So don't try and paint me as an unthinking player please.

[KeyLaga]

Celeb

-- Mod conf town

Elements

-- conditional town based on MASSIVELY too scummy to be scum

Random

-- Natural RVS entry & analysis of the game state, willing to RVS wagon; not a lot of input but I get towny vibes so far, weak town.

Kitty

-- Great RVS entry, defends me & suspects Elements but claims Informed which is a town-oriented role, strong town

Outworlder

-- RVS entrance explosive, sincere querying of existing wagons/players, posits game theory of Bingle-scum, suspects Favor; fearless & strong town

[KeyLaga]

I shouldn't of had to post that for you. As town you should have already known that. I think you spend too much time in the scum PT but just my opinion, you don't have to quote me on that.

[KeyLaga]

No it WAS a very real reason. At that time, there wasn't any way I could figure out how scum could benefit from your fakeclaim and therefore you were TOO SCUMMY TO BE SCUM TOWN which can be a very strong read.

[KeyLaga]

Do I have to make it realer for you? If someone could never possibly do something as scum, that makes them town (generally speaking) and a read like that persist for an entire game.

So as scum here, you would want me to town read you for your play? Meh. Sorry, not a huge fan of your play in this game. Nothing personal but too scummy to be scum and me don't get along. Now, don't get me wrong, you pull a move like that and start massively town-playing and catching scum, you will gain my respect, without a doubt. Its just that this game isn't multiball.

[KeyLaga]

I simply would adjure you to play to your wincon, as frustrating as I will definitely be making it for you. If your team wishes to surrender, I believe that is allowed.

[KeyLaga]

In due time.

[KeyLaga]

Scum don't get to tell me what to do, unless I say its OK.

[KeyLaga]

Town relations can often feel weird to non-aligned parties, its perfectly understandable. I think you should get humping on your Elements case.

[KeyLaga]

Yes I am perfectly aware that you wanted to day-vig me, pretty sure we'll find that in the scum PT after the game too.

[KeyLaga]

Btw I am calling out Khaos for not answering me regarding what is going on IRL that is keeping them busy. I think we all deserve an answer to this.

[KeyLaga]

Touche'. Of course a general idea is warranted. I don't read deliberately unresponsive players well.

[KeyLaga]

@Khaos: Ok, so by now I guess you have been able to ISO players, you can post a read least of:

1) All the players
2) The players that stand out to you the most
3) Your top 2-3 town reads and top 2-3 scum reads

When you post something from 1-3, its good to include some information about your thought process with each player. Sound good?

Okay, I'll start working on it when I'm not busy anymore.

This has been an ongoing thing. How are we supposed to differentiate this from scum lurking, seriously.

[KeyLaga]

Do you think I'm aligned with khaos?

As 100% certain as I am that you are scum, I am not arrogant to the point that I will not be watching every player and playing a normal town game at the same time.