Crazy that Hu Tao isn't on there
Mini Normal 2316 | Halloween | Endgame
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usesPython They/ThemMafia ScumThey/Them
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BlackStar/Hu Tao not paired, I think if scum!BlackStar knew Hu Tao was fakeclaiming they would have seen the softIn post 1447, BlackStar wrote:
I read that as you thinking Hu Tao was lying but I didn’t think you were trying to soft something. That makes sense now thoughIn post 1442, usesPython wrote: We're literally saying that a doctor claim after a no kill isn't a mech clear and asking for a fullclaim, how is that not an obvious softPlural-
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Like I think if both of them were scum their first instinct wouldn't have been "Python thinks Hu Tao is lying" but "Oh shit person whos night action Hu Tao is stealing is coming out"In post 1455, usesPython wrote:
BlackStar/Hu Tao not paired, I think if scum!BlackStar knew Hu Tao was fakeclaiming they would have seen the softIn post 1447, BlackStar wrote:
I read that as you thinking Hu Tao was lying but I didn’t think you were trying to soft something. That makes sense now thoughIn post 1442, usesPython wrote: We're literally saying that a doctor claim after a no kill isn't a mech clear and asking for a fullclaim, how is that not an obvious softPlural-
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Like legitimately if you think an uncontested BP claim after a no kill is scum cause we're going after Hu Tao over OWER then you really need to go and reset for a bit
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In post 1427, TheHoldSteady wrote:
I'm making the doctor claim the focus of the thread because I'm not resting until Hu Tao answersIn post 1425, usesPython wrote: THS rn has that slimy "Oh shit my partner did something dumb" playing both sides vibe going on where he "has" to react to the doctor claim but also doesn't really wanna have that be the focus of the thread while trying to pull back to the OWER limIn post 1465, TheHoldSteady wrote: VOTE: OutworldER
I don't like everything I've seen from Black, but with the Macho watcher claim I feel like we can afford to leave her alone for today. I townread Smiley and Python right now. POE on Wartortle's bandwagon yesterday is telling me that its OutworldPlural-
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Don't twist our words, we're calling you out for doing the scum thing you said you wouldn't be doingIn post 1468, TheHoldSteady wrote: Why do you want me to suspect Hu Tao so badly?Plural-
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That argument only works if Hu Tao flips redIn post 1472, TheHoldSteady wrote:
That's what you're saying, but what it really feels like is you're indirectly pressuring me to vote Hu Tao.In post 1471, usesPython wrote:
Don't twist our words, we're calling you out for doing the scum thing you said you wouldn't be doingIn post 1468, TheHoldSteady wrote: Why do you want me to suspect Hu Tao so badly?Plural-
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Like you can't be scum for moving votes away from Hu Tao towards OWER if Hu Tao flips green so I don't see why you're feeling subtly pressured thereIn post 1474, usesPython wrote: That argument only works if Hu Tao flips redPlural-
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She retracted after a softIn post 1488, TheHoldSteady wrote: She retracted before the ccPlural-
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We softed that we had something to do with the lack of nightkillIn post 1497, Hu Tao wrote:
Please re-read. You said something AFTER I said I'm not doc.In post 1433, usesPython wrote:
She backed off cause we were very clearly softing that we had something to do the lack of nightkill and therefore didn't need to keep the claim anymore since it already forced a ccIn post 1432, Black wrote: VOTE: OWER
I don't know why scum!Hu would claim Doc here and then back off right away instead of just faking a target. Doesn't really make sense to me the more I think about itbeforeyou retracted your claim unless you wanna say that a VT would normally immediately ask for a fullclaim and start saying a doctor isn't mech clear when a no kill happenedPlural-
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Other people are coming at it from the perspective of not being involved with the nightkill, we're asking specifically if you're saying that a VT would normally do what we didIn post 1503, Hu Tao wrote:
Considering others thought the same yesIn post 1500, usesPython wrote:
We softed that we had something to do with the lack of nightkillIn post 1497, Hu Tao wrote:
Please re-read. You said something AFTER I said I'm not doc.In post 1433, usesPython wrote:
She backed off cause we were very clearly softing that we had something to do the lack of nightkill and therefore didn't need to keep the claim anymore since it already forced a ccIn post 1432, Black wrote: VOTE: OWER
I don't know why scum!Hu would claim Doc here and then back off right away instead of just faking a target. Doesn't really make sense to me the more I think about itbeforeyou retracted your claim unless you wanna say that a VT would normally immediately ask for a fullclaim and start saying a doctor isn't mech clear when a no kill happenedPlural-
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Because you already got the reaction you neededIn post 1506, Hu Tao wrote: Why as scum would I claim doctor with only 3 votes on me and retract right away.Plural-
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Why are we even having this convo, you're literally mafPlural-
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Like this isn't a hard concept to grasp and idk why people are struggling with it, when scum claim doctor here they know they're like 95% of the time stealing a Doctor/Jailkeeper protect and so as soon as someone starts calling them out in the slightest way they can assume that's the person whos action they're stealing and back off instead of waiting for them to fully claimIn post 1508, usesPython wrote: Other people are coming at it from the perspective of not being involved with the nightkill, we're asking specifically if you're saying that a VT would normally do what we didPlural-
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People are literally refusing to vote you here cause you backtracked on your claim, how is that wanting to dieIn post 1512, Hu Tao wrote:
So you're saying instead of trying to stay alive I would want to die after 3 votes? Make it make senseIn post 1509, usesPython wrote:
Because you already got the reaction you neededIn post 1506, Hu Tao wrote: Why as scum would I claim doctor with only 3 votes on me and retract right away.Plural-
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You do not unironically think you'd win a 1v1 cc battle if we'd claimed Doctor thereIn post 1515, Hu Tao wrote:
Because they can understand why scum wouldn't be scared of a cc in this situationIn post 1513, usesPython wrote: People are literally refusing to vote you here cause you backtracked on your claim, how is that wanting to diePlural-
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We're townlean'd or better by like over half the playerlist, the only person who was TRing you before the claim was like Naerys. You straight up do not win a cc battle there after getting cc'd by a Doctor/Jailkeeper claimIn post 1517, Hu Tao wrote: Why not? I can be very convincing as scum.Plural-
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Gimme a bit we're not in the headstate to consider a town!Hu Tao game rnIn post 1521, Hu Tao wrote:
When it comes to counter claims it doesn't always depend on what happened before but during, either way silly conversation. If I magically was revealed town who do you think is scum?In post 1519, usesPython wrote:
We're townlean'd or better by like over half the playerlist, the only person who was TRing you before the claim was like Naerys. You straight up do not win a cc battle there after getting cc'd by a Doctor/Jailkeeper claimIn post 1517, Hu Tao wrote: Why not? I can be very convincing as scum.Plural-
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Black can be left alone until massclaim I think since Macho implies the existence of like Doctor or Jailkeeper (Probably not Jailkeeper since you wouldn't need to make the Watcher Macho to make the setup work in that case) or somethingPlural-
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Wiz's strong scumread on Hu Tao before the claim looks pretty badPlural-
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This feels like he knows both Hu Tao and Python are town cause the first instinct is to assume the claim is real and that we thought you were lyingIn post 1447, BlackStar wrote:
I read that as you thinking Hu Tao was lying but I didn’t think you were trying to soft something. That makes sense now thoughIn post 1442, usesPython wrote:
We're literally saying that a doctor claim after a no kill isn't a mech clear and asking for a fullclaim, how is that not an obvious softIn post 1392, usesPython wrote:
Target cause you're claim isn't a mech clear even with the lack of nightkillIn post 1391, Hu Tao wrote:
I'm a doctor what else is there to claim?In post 1390, usesPython wrote:
If you're claiming you might as well fullclaimIn post 1389, Hu Tao wrote: I'm a doctorPlural-
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Enchant, Roden are fine. I don't feel like ISOing so why's OWER TRing Hu Tao again?Plural-
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Smiley and Shea are fine, THS has that slimey feel with how he's approaching thisPlural-
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Who is SRing Wiz and BlackstarIn post 1528, Enchant wrote: You should stop pretending you are solving if your scumreads are players hates by majority of game.Plural-
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We're solving under the assumption of a town!Hu Tao world cause we got askedIn post 1532, Enchant wrote: I don't get how your head works. Fine for what?
and fine as in not scumPlural-
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In post 1527, usesPython wrote: Enchant, Roden are fine. I don't feel like ISOing so why's OWER TRing Hu Tao again?
Oh it's 575/581, yeah that's pretty badPlural-
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Probably a team with some combination of OWER/THS/BlackStar in itIn post 1521, Hu Tao wrote:
When it comes to counter claims it doesn't always depend on what happened before but during, either way silly conversation. If I magically was revealed town who do you think is scum?In post 1519, usesPython wrote:
We're townlean'd or better by like over half the playerlist, the only person who was TRing you before the claim was like Naerys. You straight up do not win a cc battle there after getting cc'd by a Doctor/Jailkeeper claimIn post 1517, Hu Tao wrote: Why not? I can be very convincing as scum.Plural-
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Setup spec wise we're inclined to believe one of Smiley/BlackStar is fake simply because it's not immediately obvious for most people how the scenario of JK + BG + Mafia targeting the same person resolves
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Can Enchant/Black post their results already instead of pointlessly bickering
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It's not immediately obvious how it resolves because it's not immediately obvious if the Bodyguard dies there or not (they don't because BG resolves only if their target would be dead without the BG's action. Since the JK stops the kill the BG doesn't trigger). Also that's not how NAR resolves in that situation because you can resolve it with just the golden rule by:In post 1643, OutWorldER wrote: I mean, all those roles are in the Simple compartment, even if this game was not made with that system in mind, they're in that compartment for a reason. And the resolution isn't complicated, Jailkeep is considered it's own action type under NAR and resolves before Protection or Kill so it's not very complex for the mod to keep track of and the players only have to look at the NAR page for 2 seconds.- JK's action not affected by Maf or BG, it resolves first
- Resolve BG since it can affect the mafia NK here
- Resolve maf shot
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Why are there two protectives on a BP what is wrong with peopleIn post 1644, Black wrote:
I watched you. Smiley and BlackStar both visited you last nightIn post 1642, usesPython wrote: Can Enchant/Black post their results already instead of pointlessly bickering
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I'm probably going to think Enchant is scum regardless of what he claims now just because of how he maneuvered around the claims today
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Black - Macho 2-shot Watcher
Smiley - Lazy JK
Naerys - VT
Annie - VT
Enchant - ?
Roden - VT
THS - JOAT (Vig/Tracker/Doc)
OWER - VT
BlackStar - BG
Shea - VT
Python - 1-shot BPPlural-
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I think the protectives being balanced around giving town an extra lim by comboing the Vig shot with a stopped kill through BP/Doc/JK makes a decent amount of sense and BG is the odd one out in that case
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Actually Occam's razor probably applies here and what makes more sense was we got shot N1 and N2 and the Jailkeeper stopped the kill tonightIn post 1647, usesPython wrote: Why are there two protectives on a BP what is wrong with people
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Why would a Bodyguard be on a 1-Shot BP?In post 1653, AnimatedWiz wrote: I… hm… I do find it quite convenient that the Bodyguard did target two people who were already protected from danger by the Jailkeeper (who claimed before he did).
However, I feel like if BlackStar would tell a lie, it would be something a bit less miraculous as to be less suspicious, right? It’s weird, but I feel it’s honest for that’s reason.
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Also different N1 targets, HoldSteady got JK'd, Shea got BG'dIn post 1653, AnimatedWiz wrote: I… hm… I do find it quite convenient that the Bodyguard did target two people who were already protected from danger by the Jailkeeper (who claimed before he did).
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Wrong page, you want the old Normal Rules if we're working under the assumption that the JK isn't an autolim for claiming Lazy. For that the guidelines for what's a simple is:
- Moderators may declare a complexity rating of either Simple or Complex for their Normal Game when the game goes into signups.
- Complexity is defined by the following collection of characteristics. The more of them that a game has, the more likely it should be labeled complex rather than simple. The reverse is true as well: the fewer of these are applicable, the more likely the setup ought to be labeled as simple rather than complex.
- Having several roles with modifiers, especially modifiers that affect targeting (e.g. simple, loyal) or fundamentally affect the way one would play the role (e.g. announcing, weak)
- Having some roles with several modifiers
- Having a large proportion of non-vanilla roles in general
- Having anything that could be construed as a red herring (e.g., two of the same town role, a backup or enabler without a main role, a neighborhood with only mafia, a miller without a cop, etc.)
- Having complicated interactions between roles (e.g. multiple blocking roles that may affect each other, generally anything that might make a reviewer need to think twice about how it would work)
- Having many roles that aren't seen as frequently in normal games
- Anything else that would potentially defy the expectations of a player who's played normal games before
- Having several roles with modifiers, especially modifiers that affect targeting (e.g. simple, loyal) or fundamentally affect the way one would play the role (e.g. announcing, weak)
- Reviewers may choose to suggest or request a complexity rating, but complexity ratings are never mandatory.
- If a moderator wants to use a complexity label, a reviewer needs to approve it.
- Complexity is defined by the following collection of characteristics. The more of them that a game has, the more likely it should be labeled complex rather than simple. The reverse is true as well: the fewer of these are applicable, the more likely the setup ought to be labeled as simple rather than complex.
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Scum aren't gonna be given a Ninja to counter just a 2-shot Watcher and a 1-shot Tracker, especially since there's an unclaimed no result from THS night 2In post 1659, Roden wrote: Oh, I was thinking because Ninja isn't Simple and couldn't be in the set up, then we can pretty much guarantee the killer had to be Blackstar
Idk now though
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Have you claimed yet?
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Massclaim already happened, might as well finish it so we can mech solve
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How? THS tried to shoot you but failed because the Jailkeeper roleblocked the vig actionIn post 1671, Thestatusquo wrote: The night one results on me don't make any damn sense.Plural-
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Normal roles that would let you do that:In post 1682, Black wrote: If not a Mafia RB then maybe OWER is some type of scum role that prevents themselves from being investigated/watchedPlural-
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I think if there's Ascetic or Commuter there'd still need to be another maf PR to deal with the amount of protectives we have. Alien by itself is a possibility and targeting either OWER or THS would explain the N2 results. Rolestopper wouldn't address the protectives and doesn't really do anything in the setup so probably not.In post 1688, Black wrote: Do any of these roles make sense in this setup balance-wise?
Most likely we're looking at either Roleblocker targeting THS or Alien targeting THS/OWERPlural-
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Having OWER Ascetic as like a side thing while he also has an active role is also possible too actuallyPlural-
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If maf is shooting us it means they shot us N1 and again N2, and ignoring the Watcher RB to try to RB another PR under the assumption that they're not gonna be watching the BP claim isn't that crazy imoIn post 1697, Enchant wrote: I personally would risking to not kill watcher.
... But attacking bulletproof claim unless i already attacked them before, that's not something i would do. Why if i can always just kill watcher?
Or why if i have roleblock i just... Don't roleblock you?
... Hm. Maybe it points at Python even more, because you can't be saved. Mafia didn't bother to roleblock you but roleblocked THS. Maybe they didn't expect you live.
Or your claim is bogus, but likelyhood again is 1%.
That's why i advocate for both with Black first.Plural-
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Like roleblocking Black guarantees everyone knows roughly what the maf PR is (since No Result), if they need Black alive for dayplay reasons then surviving a single watcher check turns her into basically vanillaPlural-
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Actually OWER being an unclaimed Ascetic makes more sense than a roleblocker tbhPlural-
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Maf Aliening OWER to force a no result on a slot that's probably getting checked isn't that crazy eitherIn post 1701, usesPython wrote: Actually OWER being an unclaimed Ascetic makes more sense than a roleblocker tbhPlural-
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One thing I don't get about the setup is why Black is Macho. Even in the case where every single protective is real (JOAT doc, Lazy JK, BG) there's still no point in making the Watcher Macho when the only TP chain that can happen is one night of JOAT Doc/Watcher. JK roleblocks the Watcher so no chain there and BG taking a bullet doesn't get seen by Watcher chaining since both maf and BG visit the watcher
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Why is it weird for scum to shoot us again if they felt it necessary to shoot us n1. If anything we were in a better position at the end of d2 than we were at the end of d1In post 1711, TheHoldSteady wrote: Does anyone else think its weird scum would try to target a one-shot bulletproof after their first kill failed? I would've either killed watcher or tried to kill the person I thought was the protective role. Also, I think Python was leading us on yesterday when it came to limming Hu Tao. I think that Python led the scum kill last night but got caught by jailkeeper.Plural-
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I don't think scum expected Watcher/JK to be on us since we claimed 1-shot BPPlural-
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usesPython They/ThemMafia ScumThey/Them
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4646
- Joined: January 28, 2023
- Pronoun: They/Them
Hu Tao literally fakeclaimed Doctor after a no kill and then retracted, you even literally hammered themIn post 1711, TheHoldSteady wrote: Also, I think Python was leading us on yesterday when it came to limming Hu Tao.Plural-
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usesPython They/ThemMafia ScumThey/Them
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4646
- Joined: January 28, 2023
- Pronoun: They/Them
Literally why is everyone on a BPIn post 1714, TheHoldSteady wrote: ngl i briefly considered using my doc save on you but my role states i can only use one action and i didn't trust you as much after hu tao flipped town.Plural-
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usesPython They/ThemMafia ScumThey/Them
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4646
- Joined: January 28, 2023
- Pronoun: They/Them
noIn post 1717, TheHoldSteady wrote: question: does bulletproof on this website get notified when they get hit or no?Plural-
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usesPython They/ThemMafia ScumThey/Them
- Mafia Scum
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- Posts: 4646
- Joined: January 28, 2023
- Pronoun: They/Them
I don't think Blacks case was that convincing tbh considering it was just "I don't get why scum!Hu Tao would do it". We thought scum!Hu Tao was forcing a cc and then backing off, and Black claiming Macho which would normally imply a Doctor in the setup didn't make it any betterIn post 1719, TheHoldSteady wrote:
i just don't think it was that damning. black had a very good argument why the fakeclaim wasn't scum and it basically went ignored. i hammered but only because his defense sounded fake. you were pressuring me to vote even before a defense was made which i find scummy.In post 1715, usesPython wrote:
Hu Tao literally fakeclaimed Doctor after a no kill and then retracted, you even literally hammered themIn post 1711, TheHoldSteady wrote: Also, I think Python was leading us on yesterday when it came to limming Hu Tao.Plural-
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usesPython They/ThemMafia ScumThey/Them
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4646
- Joined: January 28, 2023
- Pronoun: They/Them
Cause now she's vanilla? If scum think they can dodge a single Watch then there's no point in killing her for her claimIn post 1721, TheHoldSteady wrote: Also, why is Black still alive?Plural-
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usesPython They/ThemMafia ScumThey/Them
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4646
- Joined: January 28, 2023
- Pronoun: They/Them