Mini Normal 2322: Game Over

[DragonEater70]

Also wtf are you talking about with regard to "scummy pop in"? I said yesterday that I didn't feel like playing mafia, can you have some consideration for players' real life at all? It's not like I've been consistently lurking this game or something

[DragonEater70]

I don’t think it was pretty clear i town ready you to the extent i wouldn’t Vig you OR your partner.

Pretty clear from my POV

@Pav, Gamma, Purple, Hu Tao

Going into night yesterday after HPE flipped scum, how likely would you have thought that Flavor would shoot me?

My answer: maybe 1%

[DragonEater70]

I think Flavor has been very clear on that matter.

Who? Not reading 4 pages of Flavor tunnel right now

[DragonEater70]

Wtf how are we even partnered

These are OBJECTIVELY the least partnered pairs of slots in the game

Wtf is wrong with Flavor's partner finding skills

[DragonEater70]

I don’t think it was pretty clear i town ready you to the extent i wouldn’t Vig you OR your partner.

Pretty clear from my POV

@Pav, Gamma, Purple, Hu Tao

Going into night yesterday after HPE flipped scum, how likely would you have thought that Flavor would shoot me?

My answer: maybe 1%

I thought he'd shoot Gera

Same

[DragonEater70]

It was pretty telegraphed

[DragonEater70]

Wtf how are we even partnered

These are OBJECTIVELY the least partnered pairs of slots in the game

Wtf is wrong with Flavor's partner finding skills

Okay no, me/hu tao is a valid tinfoil but it assumes a much higher level of scum play from me than I've ever demonstrated

[DragonEater70]

I thibk there was like no shot where you killed me or Hu Tao last night, Flavor

And if you did we would have just taken the L as scum. Leaving you alive makes NO SENSE for scum me.

[DragonEater70]

I don't think he has the votes to Elim you today anyway. Why do you think it's gamma/pav?

Gamma I wasn't seeing anything towny from up until this game day, now I'm starting to see it as more towny though. I also remember Kyo's last words that Gamma scumreading her is lockscum.

For Pav, yes he's very towny on a surface level but again, everything he does is easily fakable as scum IMO, and looking through Pav/HPE combined ISO during the night I noticed there were like 2 posts in Pav's ISO that I thought were somewhat scummy, and these are the exact posts that HPE liked about his slot. It definitely feels off, like HPE just made up a townread because it needed to but couldn't genuinely townread Pav because it knew he was scum. There's other things, like Pav subtly discrediting the Day 1 wagon on HPE and then saying how it's "neat" when I unvoted (feels manipulative).

[DragonEater70]

I'm not going to self-vote here though because self-voting as a PR is really stupid and I still think flipping Pav or Gamma would be so much better.

Pav is a never vote slot for me.

Sucks for you I guess

[DragonEater70]

I'll explain my case more in detail tonight

[DragonEater70]

Flavor, you do realize that when I flip town you get roleblocked and can't shoot in my scumreads anyway? There's a confirmed roleblocker.

Also

You are just fucking tunneled

Do me a favor, and do the following: take a break from this game for one day. Come back and pretend you have no reads or biases and read the game from the start and tell me what your reads are

If I'm really scum you should be able to find me anyway.

[DragonEater70]

Flavor, you do realize that when I flip town you get roleblocked and can't shoot in my scumreads anyway? There's a confirmed roleblocker.

Also

You are just fucking tunneled

Do me a favor, and do the following: take a break from this game for one day. Come back and pretend you have no reads or biases and read the game from the start and tell me what your reads are

If I'm really scum you should be able to find me anyway.

pretty sure thats what already happened, considering you were saying I was town reading you.

I reread the entire game today, and you and HPE are so aligned

What do you mean there's a confirmed roleblocker? When has that ever been shown in this game? You have been the one blocking.

If there was your JK and a scum blocker in this game, they would be blocking me and killing elsewhere IF my reads were poor, which is already shown not to be the case.

I literally said that I jailed you night 1 and your kill went through, so I was blocked.

Remember the whole show I made about being a 1-Shot BP? That was to get the roleblocker off me.

Pav is super aligned with HPE mate. How tf am I aligned? Because I unvoted HPE after Pav came in with a hard refutal of my case? That's called being an uninformed townie being manipulated by scum

One second, gonna quote all that.

[DragonEater70]

First time of me voting HPE and getting immediately discredited by Pav:

I won't steal it

However, I'll use this pagebottom to say I'm fine with a Pav/Flavor/Dragon town core for now

And I'm also going to revote HPE

VOTE: HPE

I won't steal it

However, I'll use this pagebottom to say I'm fine with a Pav/Flavor/Dragon town core for now

And I'm also going to revote HPE

VOTE: HPE

u do u boo

Hu Tao joining me and HPE and unvoting, after which I try to get her back on HPE:

Lemme check myself before taking someone this one is wary of at face value

Okay checks out thank you :salute:
VOTE: Laplacian

Looks like you're just voting them since you're getting heat too.

VOTE: HPE

Might be because I don't see the reason for the Lap scumread though

Lemme check myself before taking someone this one is wary of at face value

Okay checks out thank you :salute:
VOTE: Laplacian

To elaborate this one disagrees on Abne doing nothing but illusory acts of help, but more importantly just doesn't really think there's that "comedic veneer" from Pavowski and that 46 and 51 are secretly totally serious. ESPECIALLY not a fan of the sudden mood change after a reread, compare and contrast how 226 and 228 talk about Pavowski. Still don't like those early posts but certainly willing to write things off. It reeks of "scum failed to get people to kill this guy so they're walking away and saying 'yeah but i think they're cool now'".

Okay. You actually explained the read nvm.

UNVOTE:

Might be because I don't see the reason for the Lap scumread though

No, you are correct that HPE's jump on Lap is bad.

Me clearly being frustrated with Flavor not voting HPE or Abnegation (no I do not have magically 100% accurate reads and could not know Abnegation was town):

Anyone scumreading Lap for changing posting style is either mega tunneled or scum

Kyo is clearly mega tunneled and HPE is clearly scum, btw

I could see one of the two of them or Abnegation as scum here.

I don’t necessarily think they have to be, though.

*sigh*

Just vote one and I'll sheep you

Me casing HPE again, getting discredited by Pav AGAIN:

what's the HPE case? I reread ISO, and I dont necessarily feel it.

44 pinged me, can't say more than that

53 is weird to me because why does it care that thomith is "jumping the gun" in RVS? You kinda have to force scumreads in RVS if you ever wanna get out of it. I don't feel HPE's reaction is the natural town reaction.

240 presents something that is either NAI or towny (change in the way Lap looks at Pav,

after a reread, mind you

) as scummy to justify a vote, and it's also over-explainy in my opinion.

what's the HPE case? I reread ISO, and I dont necessarily feel it.

44 pinged me, can't say more than that

53 is weird to me because why does it care that thomith is "jumping the gun" in RVS? You kinda have to force scumreads in RVS if you ever wanna get out of it. I don't feel HPE's reaction is the natural town reaction.

240 presents something that is either NAI or towny (change in the way Lap looks at Pav,

after a reread, mind you

) as scummy to justify a vote, and it's also over-explainy in my opinion.

All roads always lead back to this VOTE: HPE

I'm trying to see the case for HPE but it's just not clicking for me.

44 seems entirely benign -- DE is it that you "can't" say more -- because there's nothing more to say -- or that you "won't -- because you don't want to?

I just disagree on 53 because that sentiment from HPE was also my feeling. I agree we have to get out of RVS sometime, but I did feel like Thom was trying real hard to make something out of what I felt was pretty obviously Not a Thing

Re: 240, I gave thoughts on Lap's change of heart before: how the change of heart looks depends entirely on what you think of Lap going in. Given HPE's professed scumread there, reading Lap in that light makes sense.

All of this could be fakery of course, but That One feels legit enough to me right now.

[DragonEater70]

How is that Pav not being aligned and mw bwing aligned?

[DragonEater70]

And not to mention how HPE was CONSTANTLY discrediting me Day 1:

Spoiler: catchup where I vote HPE

A. WTF did I just read

B. Some nice alignment indicative commentary:

*pokes thread with a stick*

What, do you people have jobs or something?

Somebody vote Kyouko for that smell thing, that was weird, wasn't it?

That way I can defend her and be all "nah that's totally normal, actually"

I'm finding myself not liking this post. Its giving me a weird gut ping that it feels fake but I dont know how to explain it fully.

You mentioned earlier that we were early on in the day, but here you are acting like there is a sense of urgency that feels like a subtle contradiction.

Why are you trying to get other people to vote Kyouko for something that you find weird? Why not lead the charge yourself if you want to get the game moving?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Pavowski

Thomith don't you think maybe you're jumping the gun a bit? Pavowski's post seems a little, teensy tiny bit, blatantly, shitposty.

Second post by HPE that pinged me as scummy

Spicy take, CW, lapalacian, HPE, and Pavowski are all town.

Why's HPE town?

Agree about the others probably

going to read everything this one missed in a sec here but saw a bunch of votes moving around Pavowski so time to UNVOTE: Pavowski before something stupid happens

Another scum post

Damn, another game where Dragon ain't trying his best...

"Second post by HPE that pinged me as scummy" Howsabout you tell us the

first

one then?

Like I think town would rather ask Thomith about their read instead of trying to stop him?

So you're also jumping the gun and making the implication that you think me and Pavowski are partnered because this one scratched it's head at Thomith's overreaction.

Like I think town would rather ask Thomith about their read instead of trying to stop him?

So you're also jumping the gun and making the implication that you think me and Pavowski are partnered because this one scratched it's head at Thomith's overreaction.

No, I never said you were partnered wtf

You are the one jumping the gun

Then what the hell else were you gonna try to make with that point? Do you think scum just

ask

people to stop potential wagons on random townies when there isn't even any towncred for doing so? Is that your theorem?

I won't steal it

However, I'll use this pagebottom to say I'm fine with a Pav/Flavor/Dragon town core for now

And I'm also going to revote HPE

VOTE: HPE

snoreeee mimimimimi. includes self in the towncore too...

Yeah this one doesn't think 47 was a normal or towny way of getting out of RVS like at all.

Why not?
It progressed the game and helped us start getting some information.

I agree with you I jumped the gun

, but I didn't tunnel on the vote once Pavowski started posting more and I started liking his posting.

And there ya go.

But at the same time the fact you indeed aren't tunneling is why this one isn't so keen on voting you as it is Lap, who took much longer to get the hint and had a very sudden change of heart so people would get off his back.

HPE wouldn't put so much effort into discrediting me if I was its partner, it would just tell me to move off it in the scum PT.

[DragonEater70]

Dragon has been saying that Purple and Hu Tao are always town here. With me also being town, that left Gamma, Pav, CW, and Geraint. It was looking like I would shoot Geraint, right? (I had said I was starting to lean town on Geraint yesterday, but I digress), but even with those odds, that is a 25% chance of blocking a kill going one of those slots, and I could have eliminated another from play, yet they chose to prevent me from making a kill.

The math of the game not mattering if a kill went through or not made sense to No Kill there too because it didn't open up another reveal.

The scum team with any combination of those 4 players also would never No Kill since Dragon claimed 2-shot JK.

DID YOU FORGET THERE IS A CONFIRMED ROLEBLOCKER FROM MY POV????

If I didn't block you, you would have died and no kill would have happened.

[DragonEater70]

If Dragon is JK, and targeted me, they’re scum gambiting, no killing, by the way. I have a feeling it’s coming, i hope not, but yeah.

Oh no you found me out!

JK isn’t confirmable, though, in that regard, so I’m just being paranoid probably.

That is factually correct, but when I wrote that it was confirmable it was with the knowledge that I managed to outsmart scum and they shot my protection target, so to me it was very obvious that there was some protective. I completely forgot scum could ever NK

I don’t necessarily think it.

I’m probably more likely to shoot DE than Tao, don’t worry.

YESSSS

K if Flavor is shooting me I'm sheeping him on whoever he wants today

This was contrived. DE tried to make it out like I was shooting them, but all I said was I was more likely to shoot them than Hu Tao, but I had already said during the day that I wouldn’t be shooting Dragon based on their claim WIFOM, and I also said that I had chosen who I was going to Vig a long time before end of the day.

Kyouko wagon helped a lot.

This is also correct. I intentionally played this way (played dumb) because I wanted to make sure scum has zero doubt in their mind I was a 1-shot BP and doesn't roleblock me so I can pull off my genius maneuver of saving you (which worked btw).

Also, I think you asked somewhere why would I jail you if we hit Kyouko town which is "beneficial" for us? I played the entirety of Day 2 since you claimed around the plan of jailing you if we hit town. You saying I was conftown if Kyouko flipped scum didn't really help my paranoia of who you'd shoot after she flipped town.

And last thing - yes, my clever night play was good and gave us an extra lim, but that doesn't mean I can't be frustrated we didn't use that extra kill on scum!Gamma or scum!HPE, ESPECIALLY because right now you are leaning toward me being scum and I know limming Gamma yesterday and havong Kyo alive today would have meant a totally different gamestate where I don't have to worry about Flavor wanting to lim the JK that protected him last night.

Anyway, I'm a 2-shot JK and I was on Flavor both nights, I guess I was roleblocked on Night 1 which is part of why I had to do all that 1-shot BP posturing

(and also why I did suspect for a slight second you were scum trying to lure out a CC from the vig, since you should have been blocked).

[DragonEater70]

Like Flavor, I can see you really think my PoE is wrong and you feel you're onto something with calling me out, but your reasoning is so flawed it's painful. I didn't deny you a kill when I KNEW there is a blocker.

[DragonEater70]

Flavor, you do realize that when I flip town you get roleblocked and can't shoot in my scumreads anyway? There's a confirmed roleblocker.

Also

You are just fucking tunneled

Do me a favor, and do the following: take a break from this game for one day. Come back and pretend you have no reads or biases and read the game from the start and tell me what your reads are

If I'm really scum you should be able to find me anyway.

pretty sure thats what already happened, considering you were saying I was town reading you.

I reread the entire game today, and you and HPE are so aligned

What do you mean there's a confirmed roleblocker? When has that ever been shown in this game? You have been the one blocking.

If there was your JK and a scum blocker in this game, they would be blocking me and killing elsewhere IF my reads were poor, which is already shown not to be the case.

Bolding mine. If there are 3 town prs there's got to be something to balance that on the scum team. Why doesn't scum block Flavor and NK Dragon in that case?

Flavor's reads and their goodness or badness aside, why shoot at Flavor two nights in a row when there's a jk out there likely to protect the conftown? Yeah Dragon gambited 2-shot but scum know their roles (yeah town has cop, vig, jk in this scenario so I'm assuming roleS plural), so they can make an educated guess about whether 2-shot is in line. They can also consider it might be a gambit and shoot elsewhere. WIFOM all the way down. It's just crazy to me that scum willingly shoots into protection twice in a row when there's another town PR out there.

Scum JK no-killing, no matter how wild a play, is still more likely than THAT, imo.

Where is the scum power in this setup if Dragon is legit?

And don't forget scum sniffed out the cop crumb d1 when it flew past most of us. They ain't just shooting on first impulse.

And, I say again, now that all of this is out there, we have to address the problem of Dragon sooner or later unless scum kills him for us, which given the past two nights, they seem unlikely to do.

This is such an OBVIOUS scum post. Pav scumread me when it was convenient for him, then townread me when it was convenient, and now that Flavor is coming up with crackpot theories on why I'm scum he starts beating the drum for that theory. It's CLEAR there is no thought process behind this post, it's an obvious attempt to justify voting the town JK who also happens to be main person scumreading him.

[DragonEater70]

If I am eliminated today please tuebolim Pav tomorrow.

[DragonEater70]

But the easier route is just flip scum!Pav, confirming me as town due to associations (of course Flavor will still flip flop but he's much less likely to actually try to wagon me after I yeeted two scum).

[DragonEater70]

I pointed this out earlier but the no kill is attempt to get flavor to change his reads and powerwolf
also idk if scum jailkeeper is a role but that would prevent a flavor kill and avoiding dragon getting vigged seemed to be priority #1

I like absolutely nothing about hu tao's play on the past few pages also

Because I'm not just sheeping flavor??

Imagine

[DragonEater70]

I have no idea about Gamma

What do you think?

[DragonEater70]

I'm not sure, I thought I had like 50% to die tonight but I guessed correctly that they wanted to kill thw conftown first (and probably are afraid of Flavor because, well, Flavor).

[DragonEater70]

Flavor, you do realize that when I flip town you get roleblocked and can't shoot in my scumreads anyway? There's a confirmed roleblocker.

Also

You are just fucking tunneled

Do me a favor, and do the following: take a break from this game for one day. Come back and pretend you have no reads or biases and read the game from the start and tell me what your reads are

If I'm really scum you should be able to find me anyway.

pretty sure thats what already happened, considering you were saying I was town reading you.

I reread the entire game today, and you and HPE are so aligned

What do you mean there's a confirmed roleblocker? When has that ever been shown in this game? You have been the one blocking.

If there was your JK and a scum blocker in this game, they would be blocking me and killing elsewhere IF my reads were poor, which is already shown not to be the case.

I literally said that I jailed you night 1 and your kill went through, so I was blocked.

Remember the whole show I made about being a 1-Shot BP? That was to get the roleblocker off me.

Pav is super aligned with HPE mate. How tf am I aligned? Because I unvoted HPE after Pav came in with a hard refutal of my case? That's called being an uninformed townie being manipulated by scum

One second, gonna quote all that.

Who would you target tonight?

If we flips Pav, I'd target Gamma just out of PoE, but I want to probably have a proper read first of the current dayphase and D2 EoD - I didn't have time to read either thoroughly.

[DragonEater70]

I'm 100% sure there's one scum in the two of them and I'm heavily leaning Pav

I guess I did promise you a read of your points on Gera and cw though.

[DragonEater70]

i would prefer not Pav today.

Why the fuck not?

Open 895 recently ended so I can now clarify why Pav pinged the shit out of me on D3. His frustration at Flavor’s rapidly changing reads felt like how I’ve felt about Black’s ever-shifting reads as scum. It’s an incredibly frustrating thing to play around.

These posts really make me think we're in a town!Gamma scum!Pav world.

I think last 2 are in gera/gamma/cw.

With cw I can see hpe and cw being partners. I agree that hpe was being serious when it said it wouldn't be partners with cw. Which is why I think cw was told to stop trolling. Thoughts?

I guess it's possible? I don't love their vote on me either but I can see them just being a super bad town player that's tunneled on me since Day 1 (for no given reason).

Actually thinking about it tunneling for no reason isn't towny and I'd expect cw to re-evaluate in some capacity after HPE flipped.

Could go there tomorrow.

[DragonEater70]

ngl I’m tired and just want this game to end
Can people post their top 2 preferred votes? Mine are Dragon and Hu Tao

Please explain why because earlier you were scumreading Pav, and both me and HT are town.

[DragonEater70]

If the day ends on me with a wagon that includes Flavor/cw/gera/Gamma/Pav (not necessarily in that order), please flip in this order:

Pav > Gamma > cw

[DragonEater70]

ngl I’m tired and just want this game to end
Can people post their top 2 preferred votes? Mine are Dragon and Hu Tao

Please explain why because earlier you were scumreading Pav, and both me and HT are town.

Flavor made good points on you, and I dislike Hu Tao’s approach this game day

No, Flavor made tunneled points on me, and Hu Tao is simply not sheeping Flavor.

How about we vote Pav who unlike me has both a huge partner equity with HPE and has been sheeping and pocketing Flavor a lot more than me (albeit in a more subtleway because he didn't want to be found out, unlike me who just did it in a jokey way D1) and then when he flips scum you townclear me and Hu Tao?

[DragonEater70]

Flavor, when I flip town can you promise me you sheep me on Pav? Or are you just gonna let him pocket you to endgame?

[DragonEater70]

Bullshit Gamma

Flavor has an incorrect read. Going against it doesn't mean you are trying to undermine him.

[DragonEater70]

Why is that a strawman? HowisHu Tao undermining Flavor? I'm literally seeing her not voting me. That's not undermining Flavor.

[DragonEater70]

Flavor, let's make a deal.

I'm 99% sure Pav is the scummy scumster here.

If we flip him today, you get to shoot someone and I get to jail someone.

If we flip me today, you get roleblocked and killed.

So let's do this:

We flip Pav. If he flips scum then you shoot cw and I Jail Gamma.

If he flips town, you shoot me. If I don't die you lim me. I won't argue. Hu Tao won't argue (actually I'm lowkey hoping she will but don't tell her). No tricks.

What do you say?

[DragonEater70]

I don't know how to respond to your responses because you're mutilating my thoughts. That's why I'm calling you out for strawmanning, you're seemingly trying to change the point of discussion to weaken my position.

I'm not

You said Hu Tao was undermining Flavor. I said she wasn't, she was simply disagreeing with him. How is that a strawman argument?

[DragonEater70]

Alright

How is Hu Tao undermining Flavor?

[DragonEater70]

Here’s my thing, and maybe it’s wrong, but I feel like if I wasn’t conf town, Pav and Gamma wouldn’t be pushing me still.

I feel Dragon and Hu Tao would be

I don't really know. I know I was townleaning you Day 1 and not really scumreading you Day 2. I explained what made me vote you, I don't think I would be pushing you in other circumstances. But even if I did why does that make me scum exactly?

Also, you are right Pav wouldn't be pushing you, that's because he wouldn't be able to handle the pushback, not because he's town.

It's baffling to me that you think I was trying to pocket you when half of my reads are in direct opposition to yours, and you give Pav a pass when his entire play is built around appeasing the conftown.

[DragonEater70]

It’s either dragon scum or Hu Tao scum, though.

Scum really have no reason not to just role block me if that’s the case.

I don’t believe they shot at me twice in a row.

Why not? You were conftown, I claimed 2-shot, it made logical sense to shoot you again.

[DragonEater70]

I refuse to be limmed today because that means you mislim Hu Tao tomorrow and game over.

If you want to lim me, let's lim Pav and I'll selfvote if he flips town.

[DragonEater70]

I just don’t feel like they were appeasing me at all. If anything, I lined up with him.

And I was?

[DragonEater70]

Flavor, you do realize that when I flip town you get roleblocked and can't shoot in my scumreads anyway? There's a confirmed roleblocker.

Also

You are just fucking tunneled

Do me a favor, and do the following: take a break from this game for one day. Come back and pretend you have no reads or biases and read the game from the start and tell me what your reads are

If I'm really scum you should be able to find me anyway.

pretty sure thats what already happened, considering you were saying I was town reading you.

I reread the entire game today, and you and HPE are so aligned

What do you mean there's a confirmed roleblocker? When has that ever been shown in this game? You have been the one blocking.

If there was your JK and a scum blocker in this game, they would be blocking me and killing elsewhere IF my reads were poor, which is already shown not to be the case.

Bolding mine. If there are 3 town prs there's got to be something to balance that on the scum team. Why doesn't scum block Flavor and NK Dragon in that case?

Flavor's reads and their goodness or badness aside, why shoot at Flavor two nights in a row when there's a jk out there likely to protect the conftown? Yeah Dragon gambited 2-shot but scum know their roles (yeah town has cop, vig, jk in this scenario so I'm assuming roleS plural), so they can make an educated guess about whether 2-shot is in line. They can also consider it might be a gambit and shoot elsewhere. WIFOM all the way down. It's just crazy to me that scum willingly shoots into protection twice in a row when there's another town PR out there.

Scum JK no-killing, no matter how wild a play, is still more likely than THAT, imo.

Where is the scum power in this setup if Dragon is legit?

And don't forget scum sniffed out the cop crumb d1 when it flew past most of us. They ain't just shooting on first impulse.

And, I say again, now that all of this is out there, we have to address the problem of Dragon sooner or later unless scum kills him for us, which given the past two nights, they seem unlikely to do.

How does this post not count as appeasing you, Flavor?

[DragonEater70]

I just don’t feel like they were appeasing me at all. If anything, I lined up with him.

And I was?

Frankly, you’ve been trying to sway me one way or another all game

Even if town

Right, but that's not appeasing or pocketing. I've been trying to get you to vote with me because I thought/knew you were town, and because I knew you have the ability to make wagons go through. It's protown for me to try and get other town to not vote town and to vote scum.

[DragonEater70]

That’s already after we were linked up

Doesn't excuse it

It's a blatant scum sheep on a mislim wagon. Look at it objectively as if you didn't have a read on me at all and as if you weren't the player being sheeped, and you'll see it.

[DragonEater70]

I do get some town energy from dragon here and there, but idk. Don’t feel you went about this the right way to get me to trust you more.

I also really really don’t like the Hu Tao/Dragon dynamic, and even if Dragon is town, and Pav is scum, I think Hu Tao’s the partner there.

So I’d rather break that up before my death because worst case scenario it leads to something.

How would I go about it the right way? Let scum nightkill you?

[DragonEater70]

Like I literally have no idea what I could do differently when I know I am town and you say things like "sure it doesn't make sense for town you why you'd do it as scum, but trust me you'd do it as scum"

It's beyond frustrating. It's beyond unfair. You are telling me what I'd do as scum and I can't even see myself doing it as scum, how tf am I supposed to show you am town here.

[DragonEater70]

I do get some town energy from dragon here and there, but idk. Don’t feel you went about this the right way to get me to trust you more.

I also really really don’t like the Hu Tao/Dragon dynamic, and even if Dragon is town, and Pav is scum, I think Hu Tao’s the partner there.

So I’d rather break that up before my death because worst case scenario it leads to something.

Okay

Let's kill pav and you shoot Hu Tao then when he flips red.

Also, still unclear to me why you scumread her.

How is it different than what you say you’re doing?

Sorry I didn't get that question

[DragonEater70]

I believe it’s quite hard to do it at this point, and was more of a journey to get to this point if so.

If you’re town, game goes to 3-2 worst case scenario tomorrow, it might be 4-2 if I’m blocked.

I know, problem is you are too deep in scum's pocket and I don't particularly trust any of cw/purple/gamma, if town, to identify scum once we both die.

[DragonEater70]

It’s just the time to deal with the possibility and cover the bases.

Cuz otherwise, it requires blind faith that you are town here.

And if you are town, I don’t trust you to find Hu Tao scum

I've kinda been asking you for blind faith a lot, like when I said Kyo is just town and I can't give you reasons. But I believe that if you truly search your heart you can find the truth and accept me as town with blind faith. Or you could just think back to all the moments yoj were townreading me and ask yourself why.

Also, if your shot on Hu Tao doesn't go off after Pav flips scum then I'll vote Hu Tao.

[DragonEater70]

Also

Like I said, if Pav flips town I'll just lay down and die. I'm that confident. Consider it a BoP shot if you must.

[DragonEater70]

I'm sure Pav is not willing to BoP shot me, because the only reason he's pushing my wagon is he hoped for an easy misfade.

[DragonEater70]

Like IDK Flavor, sometimes you need to have faith

Can't always be paranoid

I think town would win a higher percentage of games if they had more faith in each other's reads.

[DragonEater70]

VOTE: Pavowski

Jail me tonight.

Really?

[DragonEater70]

It’s just the time to deal with the possibility and cover the bases.

Cuz otherwise, it requires blind faith that you are town here.

And if you are town, I don’t trust you to find Hu Tao scum

I've kinda been asking you for blind faith a lot, like when I said Kyo is just town and I can't give you reasons. But I believe that if you truly search your heart you can find the truth and accept me as town with blind faith. Or you could just think back to all the moments yoj were townreading me and ask yourself why.

Also, if your shot on Hu Tao doesn't go off after Pav flips scum then I'll vote Hu Tao.

It’s also on you to make someone want to give you the blind faith, though, and you hadn’t

Weird that you say that while voting Pavowski.

[DragonEater70]

I’m the conf town, it’s in the nature to get pocketed and flop back and forth.

On the townies to break it out

Alright this is such a cool moment. Let's go!

[DragonEater70]

It’s not purely faith in your read, to be fair.

Jail me 100% of the time tonight.

I make it through tomorrow, or they have to block you to kill me and let’s my kill go through.

Alrighty let's do it

[DragonEater70]

Why though, HT?

[DragonEater70]

VOTE: DragonEater

VOTE: Pav

i have no clue.

VOTE: Dragon

This is so funny

[DragonEater70]

Okay Flavor, I know this might sound opportunistic as shit, but it's actually not. I'm genuinely thrown off by HT's insistence not to vote either me or Pav this day phase.

So, now's your time to explain to me why she's scum in the world where I am town and Pav is scum.

[DragonEater70]

I refuse to be limmed today because that means you mislim Hu Tao tomorrow and game over.

If you want to lim me, let's lim Pav and I'll selfvote if he flips town.

You aren't self-voting when I flip town, don't pretend like you are. And your assumption that we then autoflip Hu Tao as town tomorrow is just that, an assumption.

If Flavor isn't there to drive it, what makes you think it'll be automatic?

And how are you so goddamn sure Hu Tao flips green? At this point I could see a red flip from anybody in the lobby and it would barely surprise me.

"I refuse to be limmed" is so silly. Even if town, you're so frustrated at catching votes it feels like scum fighting for your absolute life.

You get how mechanically we have to flip you eventually, right?

Scum never NKs you now. Unless we somehow flip a scum RB today.

And guess what? It ain't happening if you flip me.

I don't think it ever happens period at this point.

See the problem with this post is this is like the third time this game you are trying to convince me I am scum/lying/whatever.

You are probably right that my survival instinct will tell me not to self vote if it comes to that,

but I am just very convinced you are scum and I am willing to bet the game on that, that's what I am trying to convey. So even if I don't self vote, I will have no leverage to lim anyone else if you flip town. And I am fine with that, because I am sure you are scum.

It's nice to call it an assumption, but I have played enough games of mafia to know that when someone who's been hard defending a certain lhf slot dies, it becomes incredibly easy to push that slot.

Even if you decide to not autolim Hu Tao, in a world where Flavor and I die and there's 2 scum left, I feel people aee too divided to ever find scum. Like unless the scum team is exactly cw/Gamma (which I don't think it is, since as I said I think you are scum), it's just super easy for scum to miseliminate HT. It's also probably easy to miselim Purple.

It's called having reads. Might be a new concept for you, mr. "I change who I think is scum whenever it's convenient", but I have played enough games with Hu Tao and I have looked at what she's done this game, and I just think she's town. Though as I said in my last post, willing to hear why Flavor thinks she's scum.

That "we always have to flip you, scum never NKs you" is pure bullshit

. If I don't get night killed then I can either let Flavor live, help him vig, or generate clears. There's absolutely no fucking way scum let me live unless they are happy with Flavor being alive and pushing a mislim on me, which, well... doesn't really support your argument. There is NO reason I need to be flipped after you flip scum.

What is the point of this line except making me look bad and discrediting me? Like, sure, it looks frustrated. It is frustrated. So what?

Okay, who's your partner?

[DragonEater70]

Hmmm I'll have a look at that unvote.

[DragonEater70]

HPE wouldn't put so much effort into discrediting me if I was its partner, it would just tell me to move off it in the scum PT.

HPE seemed to go after me too. would you think that clears me?

There's a difference between "go after" (push) and discredit (try to make someone's points invalid).

I don't think it clears you but I don't think you have a particularly partnered ISO from when I last checked?

[DragonEater70]

Why though, HT?

The pav is the towniest of the bunch to me I think

What do you think about his push on me and about his discredit of previous pushes on HPE?

[DragonEater70]

I would comment on more things but it's really late because I don't manage my time very well so please forgive me while I go to sleep

I promise I'll contribute more tomorrow.

[DragonEater70]

what if we kill Purple

i think they're scum here.

Dragon can jail me, and then we go tomorrow. If they're scum, cool, we're in a decent spot. If they're town, we got that out of the way, and then only one left. We can go Purple->Geraint if Purple is scum, and then maybe all 4 of you are all town.

Sure, maybe we are all town.

Let's flash wagon Meowth.

VOTE: cw

[DragonEater70]

Pinging you to answer FL

[DragonEater70]

I'll wait for dragons thoughts

On?

[DragonEater70]

I think my thoughts have been clear

[DragonEater70]

In addition, I keep coming back to HPE following Dragon, and it just kind of seems like HPE/Purple were following their scum leader Dragon a lot.

Tbh I don't think scum work like that

And you'll have to trust me on that but suspecting me and following me at the same time is actually something Purple does a lot as town.

[DragonEater70]

Like how often do scum "follow their scum leader" vs how often do they just sheep town to look towny

[DragonEater70]

In addition, I keep coming back to HPE following Dragon, and it just kind of seems like HPE/Purple were following their scum leader Dragon a lot.

So I’m not comfortable going outside of Hu Tao/Dragon/Purple today.

Let's say I'm scum together with dragon, wouldn't it be better for me to try less to be in contact with him?
That way if one of us is voted out, it will be more difficult to reach the other.
Or at least ask things and such separately, and not here (assuming that scum have the option to talk during the day, because the days are much longer) Like, it's possible, it just doesn't sound very effective

Less in contact with him? That implies you've been heavily im contact with him here in the thread, which does not at all strike me as the case.
This is just such an odd thing to say.

The assumption here might be a town tell, though.

That's weird of you to say considering Flavor just pointed out Purple is "following me" and I think 95% of his interactions are with either me or Flavor. He's definitely been in contact with me.

[DragonEater70]

So I’m not comfortable going outside of Hu Tao/Dragon/Purple today.

With all respect Flavor, this PoE is town. And if I'm scum here I would be putting on a show of getting convinced about Hu Tao scum or Purple scum and voting them for an easy miselim and then complaining D5 that your reads suck.

So instead I am just going to ask you to choose someone else. My PoE is Pav/cw/Gamma ATM and I'm pretty sure you have cases all of them (or at least Pav and cw) as HPE partners before HPE even flipped.

[DragonEater70]

I need to rethink things because I think Dragon wouldn't put this much effort in as scum. He's comparable to Creature in how much he dislikes playing the alignment.

I like playing scum but only when I have a team that is really enthusiastic about working together to control the thread, which is sadly in less than 50% of my scum games because a lot of players on this site either just don't like playing scum or play as lone wolves and don't know how to work together.

[DragonEater70]

why am I in your PoE at this point, Dragon?

Because I eliminated everyone else. That's how a PoE works.

I do think there are town things about you, I'm just really convinced about Hu Tao and Purple being town. I guess gera could be scum but I don't think he's ever today's lim.

[DragonEater70]

Fine

You are town

I may revoke this later but for now I think this reach out is towny.

I'll admit, I have sort of been low-efforting the last 2-3 real life days (mainly because work has really picked up for me and I have much less time for the amount of games I'm signed up for, also because I'm just not getting enough sleep so I'm too tired to properly tryhard), so I may have forgotten your reads. Please bear with my stupid questions then.

Who are you willing to lim today? And what do you think about my town case of Purple? What do you think of my scum case on Pav?

[DragonEater70]

That we're a townblock?

I thought Hu Tao wasn't on Lap though.

[DragonEater70]

Link to VCs? I haven't really kept track of that game.

[DragonEater70]

Votecount 1.4

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes to eliminate. Day 1 ends in (expired on 2024-01-02 07:27:34).

Votecount

Laplacian (5)

- ssbm_kyouko, Abnegation, Pavowski, HighPrincessErinys, geraintm

HighPrincessErinys (3)

- Hu Tao, Flavor Leaf, DragonEater70

Flavor Leaf (1)

- cw357

Abnegation (1)

- Laplacian

cw357 (1)

- Joyboy

Not Voting (2)

- Purplemango, Thomith

Flavour

okay no I think this VC was the one I was thinking of wrt the three people voting together D1

Yeah it was when the block formed

Look there can be scum in townblocks, but may I remind you my 5.5 players pure townblock from Love Child?

[DragonEater70]

I need to rethink things because I think Dragon wouldn't put this much effort in as scum. He's comparable to Creature in how much he dislikes playing the alignment.

I like playing scum but only when I have a team that is really enthusiastic about working together to control the thread, which is sadly in less than 50% of my scum games because a lot of players on this site either just don't like playing scum or play as lone wolves and don't know how to work together.

I hope to be scum with you someday

That would be fun! Though probably not as fun as being masons together. We should roll masons one day.

[DragonEater70]

Then question them

[DragonEater70]

Flavor pointed out earlier he didn't like her unvote of Kyo

I went back and that unvote looks pretty innocuous to me

[DragonEater70]

Then question them

working on that right now

Alright, lookibg forward to it.

[DragonEater70]

More I read. More I think pav is still the correct vote today

Didn't you say he was town? What changed your mind?

[DragonEater70]

Also I should probably

VOTE: Pav

I refuse to be the second cote on scum.

[DragonEater70]

I’m just not okay having this game move forward with the possibility of me not in it in a gamestate where it benefits a dragon or Hu Tao scum member.

But Flavah, I am jailing you. And you can even shoot Hu if you really want. So if you die Hu dies, and if she doesn't I'm confscum.

[DragonEater70]

Unless scum has two RB's but I don't think that ever happens.

[DragonEater70]

Yeah that was a hypothetical

[DragonEater70]

Flavor pointed out earlier he didn't like her unvote of Kyo

I went back and that unvote looks pretty innocuous to me

Your wrong.

It’s bad even if it’s town considering Pav already unvoted.

I read it as Hu Tao reading the request to unvote and unvoting, without checking if somebody else unvoted.

I mean, I literally did the same thing in resoonse to the unvote request.

[DragonEater70]

But i think they just slipped mind

Meaning?

[DragonEater70]

But i think they just slipped mind

Meaning?

Like they might have missed Pav’s unvote.

Because either way, even if town that was a Garbo unvote after Pav had unvoted.

I also don’t like you going for literally my top town read when you have a POE of 3. Just kinda rude

I tried going for cw and you said no?

[DragonEater70]

Gamma saying you imply my shot wouldn’t go off

missed this, this was not my idea I had in mind. My idea was “that’s only last day if scum wins it”
Which I felt like was Hu Tao attempting to manifest a scum victory

Honestly, it’s Dragon and Hu Tao and that’s why this day phase is so stuck like this.

VOTE: Dragon

Go next and let me shoot and die.

Again, you won't be able to shoot (and likely won't die either).

There's a roleblocker.

[DragonEater70]

Like Flavor who can I push in my PoE that you'd be happy with?

[DragonEater70]

Tell you what

I am not saying I cannot change up my scum play, because I can, but I seriously don't think I play such a low level game as scum as just having my partner sheep me and ask them for reads or whatever

And I still think you are ignoring pretty solid but much subtler associations between Pav and HPE.

[DragonEater70]

AND

I agree that maybe the Day 2 wagon helped us find HPE as scum, but I was still annoyed at being ignored when I was saying Kyo was town, and I don't think it's really fair to say I was pushing a narrative when I was just genuinely upset. I also don't get what scum!me gets out of pushing that narrative.

[DragonEater70]

And I’ve looked at the possibilities, and I see just as many anti association stuff.

Like the Pav/HPE vs Dragon/Hu Tao is classic scum on both sides.

Sorry I'm demanding and annoying but do you have examples of this from other games?

[DragonEater70]

So I can like compare

[DragonEater70]

DE just has had a levels of TMI i don’t like too this game

It's called being confident about my reads

It's actually something I do a lot in my recent town games, I think.

Like the way they played the game made me not trust them all game.

That's a lie, you trusted me plenty.

[DragonEater70]

Just so much that makes Dragon look like scum.

I thought we already had this convo and you agreed to extend faith to me

It's kinda discouraging because we had a coolmoment earlier and now you just forgot about it.

[DragonEater70]

Flava

Does scum me talk for hours about not wanting to vote Lap and then just vote when you ask me to

Does scum me fight tooth and nail not to miselim an LHF today (because fypov if I am scum then one of Hu Tao / Purple is town), knowing that this may very well come back to bite me since you've wanted to kill me all day?

Does scum me REALLY just have HPE follow me like that?

[DragonEater70]

Just so much that makes Dragon look like scum.

I thought we already had this convo and you agreed to extend faith to me

It's kinda discouraging because we had a coolmoment earlier and now you just forgot about it.

You started pushing my top town read

AFTER YOU SAID NO TO PUSH CW

[DragonEater70]

Who do you want me to vote? My top TR???

[DragonEater70]

Be reasonable Flavor

[DragonEater70]

Also

While I get he's your top TR and you might think I'm incredibly stupid for pushing him (I won't fault you for thinking that), it's ludicrous to decide I am scum because I am pushing your top TR

What do I even gain from that as scum

[DragonEater70]

Like for me to be scum I have to be playing the WIFOM card so hard and basically do everything I can for you to dislike me so that I can then WIFOM

I don't play scum like that Flavor. Check my completed games.

[DragonEater70]

Dragon is trying to get me to reconsider while refusing to reconsider themselves.

I’d even argue I have reconsidered multiple times this day phase—they haven’t.

Right but I didn't feel you made any strong argument about Hu Tao

Like when I asked why she scum you mentioned the unvote which I said what I think about. You also mentioned the 2v2 with scum on both sides. I guess there's no reason it can't happen, but I don't think it automatically makes her scum but maybe am wrong

[DragonEater70]

Who do you want me to vote? My top TR???

^^^ this.

Zero empathy for it when it’s not their reads.

Pavowski/CW is my Hu Tao/Purple.

And after the game we’ve had, and the burned I’ve gotten recently from not trusting my gut, you trying to shade me for doing exactly what you’re doing is NOT a good look.

Whoch game are you refrring to?

[DragonEater70]

I have correctly identified Lap town.

I correctly identified you as JK.

I correctly identified that if Kyouko was town, HPE was scum.

I have correctly identified HPE as scum Day 1

I have correctly identified Lap was town

I have correctly identified Kyo was town

If you wanna say my read on Kyo was "blind" or had "no reasoning", you are welcome to. But actually Kyo was scum in Open 895 and I knew that and knowing that I knew what her scum range looked like, and she was just completely and utterly out of it.

And Hu Tao I am townreading because she correctly identified me as wolf in Flavorless Hell and I think she's good at reading me and the fact that I am her strongest read is exactly in line with what I'd expect from town Hu Tao. And yes I could see bus potential from her on HPE Day 1 but I think the interactions from HPE don't read bus, they read frustration. And she also has various meta differences between town and scum and unfortunately I am more sure about my own meta read than yours even though you are the one who has played with her more, for the same reasons I trusted my meta read on Kyo.

And yeah idk maybe she's scum hiding behind me but I don't see it, I don't see the agenda in her posting and I'd be willing to re-evaluate if Pavowski flips town and I am telling you that if you refuse to believe my read you can freaking vig her anyway

Pedit: fine, I will go through your ISO right now and see what cases for Hu Tao I missed.

[DragonEater70]

Why do you have a 4 page ISO

[DragonEater70]

As in I was town and he thought I was scum all game

Which game was that?

[DragonEater70]

Alright here are all of Flavor's cases on Hu Tao:

Spoiler:

The thing with Hu Tao is they don’t really stand for much this game, and kind of shadow coasting behind Dragon, and when Hu Tao is town, they don’t hide behind a townie. They might shadow coast as town, but it isn’t behind a townie, they’re just there.

This is a really strong case imo.

It also lines up with my one in Pav/HPE, one in DE/Hu Tao gamestate read from Day 2.

Damn, Kyouko fade just keeps showing it’s worth more and more.

Imma count HPE as a successful vig since I did shoot there that night. Y’all can deal.

His reasonings yesterday I kind of liked, and felt like genuine town Geraint. Like the post he made when i said I’d vig them (i didn’t) and they said “well i don’t want you to”

And Day 2 did happen during holidays, which they seem to had festivities of sorts going, like when they said “11pm on Christmas Eve, you lucky i posted at all”

Was super genuine.

I just don’t think Geraint been pushing an objective this game, and when they started posting more. Idk. I just don’t see HPE and Geraint aligned after both of their play yesterday.

I believe Geraint is the fade that scum wanted after HPE went down, which gives more reason for Hu Tao scum imo

But why are you still alive in that case? Seems like a hell of a gambit, vs killing off a conftown slot

I agree, and that goes in the favor of DE. However, it does get DE a lot of town cred.

And the fact that almost nobody else seems too open to the idea means scum isn't on board with it.

I can see reasons why scum outside of DE wouldnt want to try and push there, especially if the team is like Purple-Hu Tao, which is another reason that team is what leans for me.

DE, if scum, has Hu Tao and probably Purple pocketed, and has been playing the angle with me all game, which I think is crucial.

JK'ing me also feels like self survival, either for themselves, or their teammate.

I really dont know how much I liked they saved HPE Night 2 with it.

they could just be town, but i think it's worth looking over.

Hu Tao hasn't really double looked over any slot, and has been content shadow coasting, and I think the town read on Hu Tao by Dragon is too much.

Hu Tao, can you talk about the PV/CW - Hu Tao/DragonEater dynamics to me? What are your thoughts on the 4 of you, not necessarily your read, but your thoughts on the 2 v 2 as a general thing.

I think that cw is probably town but will vote wrong tomorrow so he needs to go. Still a small chance he flips scum so better now then later. Pav seems to be the one who does soft defenses of cw so I think he could be the scum that wants cw alive for tomorrow.

In terms of Dragon and me. Could dragon ve pocketing me? Idk, I don't think so. Last time I played with dragon scum he was obvious and I called it day 1. I don't see that here. I think it's weird cw tries to push that me and dragon are a pair and his read seems very surface level which is why I think there is a chance cw flips scum.

I'm gonna locktown Hu Tao

So that makes 4 I'm never voting - Purple, Flavor, Hu Tao and myself.

Can you explain why Hu Tao is town? I agree with the points I'm reading from cw against Hu Tao, but I have been severely tunneled in this game up until today. Specifically you mentioned it looks like cw is opening ISOs and ignoring context, and maybe because I've been tunneled I'm missing the fact that context is missing?

I feel in isolation and without fact-checking them that the cw posts about scum!HT make sense. Flavor being conftown and Laplacian flipping town really turns this game upside down for me. I also noticed about Thomith a few days ago when looking at his ISO that from the way he talked about Hu Tao I'm pretty sure he was banking on investigating them. I haven't looked for their meta together yet but it might be HT had reason to believe that could happen if they've played together in games where Thomith was an investigative before

Yeah, this is really good observation.

In addition, Day 2 we were really never going to be able to agree on a scum fade because of the effort HPE, DE were putting in, and I do think HT has some scum potential as the 3rd here.

It's almost always Hu Tao or Geraint.


I actually have a VCA reasoning for why the team has a big chance of being HPE/DE/Hu Tao from Day 2 that I'll get into after my reread.

It’s the way they both wanted people to know they are very much still on the wagon. But they literally aren’t

VOTE: kyouko

This is E-2 - don't E-1 me without Gamma's catchup.

naughty of hu tao. They gave a 'nice gesture' earlier with their unvote (Hu Tao's unvote was rough because they double unvoted after Pavowski unvoted, Dragon did so later as well), but they didn't stay unvoted before Gamma's catchup right after HPE got pushed by Kyouko?

Good point. I guess since day 2 it's felt like flavor has been running the show as clear, I haven't put much effort into casing since then. I've been trying to poe it out. Same reason I voted hpe.

So when I start asking for people to case MORE is when you decide to case LESS?

lol

VOTE: Hu Tao

Jail me Dragon

Hu Tao read evolution is the worst of the gang, and if we aren’t going Purple, they’re the 2nd since they stop where i think scum’s at if they’re town or are scum themselves

Gamma saying you imply my shot wouldn’t go off

missed this, this was not my idea I had in mind. My idea was “that’s only last day if scum wins it”
Which I felt like was Hu Tao attempting to manifest a scum victory

Honestly, it’s Dragon and Hu Tao and that’s why this day phase is so stuck like this.

VOTE: Dragon

Go next and let me shoot and die.

Am gonna go over this in a bit, but I wanna respond to some points you made at me first.

[DragonEater70]

Meta reads are still able to be explained.

Now that I’m thinking about it, Hu Tao has explained their meta read on Dragon. (I have the counter to it, but they did explain why they are reading it that way) so could be Purple/Dragon.

Dragon has been pushing gut reads as meta, and they’re not explaining it, because it’s gut. Kyouko was a meta read, and why were they able to explain it with Kyouko and not Hu Tao or Purple?

Okay, you are right, I am not properly explaining my reads on these two. Let me try.

Purple I have observed a clear trend where I was able to place him correctly, 1 for 1, as town or scum on like our last 3-4 games based on:
1. The level of analysis in his reads.
2. His reaction to being pushed.
3. His attitude towards strong town players (which in his perspective would be me and you).

As town, there's reads that are like believably reads. I am not expecting him to go and make a huge, 7 paragraph scum- (or town-) case on someone, but you can see that there's thought put into it. Which I have been feeling this game. In his posts where he says things like "I think you could be scum but it's not efficient to vote you right now", there's more nuance than I'd expect from scum him because he's not a very high effort scum player. Or more exactly his play as scum is not very high level, meaning he focuses on charm moreso than on trying to look analytic.

As town when pushed he tries to question the push and produces more reads (as he'd done here), as scum when pushed I think he just tends to either bus his partners to save himself, or just flail and then give up if the push continues.

Also as scum he tries to "appeal to" the town leaders and sort of play around them, but might counter their reads (but doesn't really push them). Whereas as town he does his own thing, and often scumreads the town leaders (though he can end up sheeping them). I think this has been his approach to both my and your slot this game.

And if you’re town that sure of your reads, make better cases for Hu Tao/Purple, because if you’re that certain, and if you are correct,

That is the wincon.

I need to be convinced for it to happen.

And I have specifically told you the reasons you have given me just aren’t good enough FOR ME to agree with them. That’s fine for how YOU got the read, now improve on it and make more town cases.

Because I have town cased Hu Tao more than you have.

This is like when Hu Tao needed my vote to get FireScum, and they weren’t being self aware enough to know that they weren’t gonna hit scum unless I got convinced, and even in that game, I had the 2nd scum dead to rights and new that if we went to another day on certain slots, it leads to a scum fade and dissolution the next days.

So i target slots that even if hit town, can lead to a gamestate where it works for most scenarios.

In a scenario where I am right that there’s scum in Hu Tao/Drag/Purple (and I believe this to be correct even if Pav ends up being scum, I can see a world where Pav is in that Firebringer slot) then I am setting a situation up where it protects from all angles.

I’ve been pretty good with reads lately except for when I go against my gut, so it’s not happening here without better reasons.

I even outright found meta reasons for Purple to be scum here, and by knowing you had incorrect meta on me at times, on top of already seeing meta as supplementary, meta ain’t doing it for me here.

Fine, I will read your cases on Hu Tao and then I will either vote her or make a towncase for her.

[DragonEater70]

I'm starting work though so it will be after that

[DragonEater70]

Is hammering Hu Tao here not a scum claim?

Anyway I'm jailing Flavor and would appreciate if he shot in my PoE.

[DragonEater70]

Oh nvm Hu Tao fooled me

RN, any reason for the vote?

[DragonEater70]

Okay so a 3/3 split

If Hu Tao flips scum we lock town Pav and if she flips town we lockscum Pav

Maybe

I am not actually good at VCA

[DragonEater70]

Gera/purple/your slot have been lurky,

yeah, i have been. but i've got so little to go on i am just going by gut.

So you’re sheeping the person who’s been voting you the entire day. Noted.

What do you make of it?

Also I did promise to read your cases of Hu Tao, I guess I have to do that now.

[DragonEater70]

But why are you still alive in that case? Seems like a hell of a gambit, vs killing off a conftown slot

I agree, and that goes in the favor of DE. However, it does get DE a lot of town cred.

And the fact that almost nobody else seems too open to the idea means scum isn't on board with it.

I can see reasons why scum outside of DE wouldnt want to try and push there, especially if the team is like Purple-Hu Tao, which is another reason that team is what leans for me.

DE, if scum, has Hu Tao and probably Purple pocketed, and has been playing the angle with me all game, which I think is crucial.

JK'ing me also feels like self survival, either for themselves, or their teammate.

I really dont know how much I liked they saved HPE Night 2 with it.

I actually think this might be the most compelling case for scum Hu Tao, of why scum hadn't just pushed me to my death

To really answer that question I'm gonna have to reread from the point where you started flip flopping on me today, so I'm going to be doing that atm.

[DragonEater70]

Is hammering Hu Tao here not a scum claim?

Anyway I'm jailing Flavor and would appreciate if he shot in my PoE.

How flavor can shot if you jail them?

The scum has a roleblocker

So there are three options:

1. Scum blocks me in order to shoot flavor. They kill him and he also gets to shoot since I'm blocked
2. Scum kills me. Flavor doesn't gwt to shoot but at least I'm confirmed as town and maybe Flavor sheeps my reads.
3. Scum kill someone else (let's say you or gera). Okay not ideal but helps narrow the pool down.

[DragonEater70]

Is hammering Hu Tao here not a scum claim?

Anyway I'm jailing Flavor and would appreciate if he shot in my PoE.

Is that a slip?

TELL ME that's not a

slip

, Dragon.

It isn't.

Why you voting there?

[DragonEater70]

I see we're on Day 4. Any IMPORTANT highlights I should know?

VOTE: Hu Tao

Flavor is conftown vig, Gera/purple/your slot have been lurky, Dragon is a claimed JK, the rest of us are claimed vanilla

...

What Day did Flavor claim Vig? How was he confTowned?

I don't care how my prior slot behaved given what

I

know.

What Day did Dragon claim JK?

I claimed JK Day 3 but I claimed that I used up all my shots (not true) so I don't get killed. Mayne a mistake tbh.

[DragonEater70]

Maybe*

[DragonEater70]

I see we're on Day 4. Any IMPORTANT highlights I should know?

VOTE: Hu Tao

Flavor is conftown vig, Gera/purple/your slot have been lurky, Dragon is a claimed JK, the rest of us are claimed vanilla

...

What Day did Flavor claim Vig? How was he confTowned?

I don't care how my prior slot behaved given what

I

know.

What Day did Dragon claim JK?

It actually does matter because we have been labeling the group as lurk group.

But it’s really not an alignment thing, and I’ve been hard protecting your slot for a while as is.

To you, not to me.

Lurking doesn't make one Scum, either.

As you should know competent Scum can also be active Scum.

Did my predecessors claim anything?

Claimed VT on page 6. Is this untrue?

[DragonEater70]

Welcome Nurse, have you caught up on the game?

Uh

I wanna UNVOTE: for a mo here

This does not happen from a SCUM PAV.

Y’all talk about me needing to compromise?!?

YALL need to compromise.

I can see that

New townblock (IMO):
Flavor, Dragon, Pav, Hu Tao, Nurse

Let's murder Gamma / Gera.

[DragonEater70]

Am I being a bit too quick on the trigger wrt townreads? Maybe so but I want to try Flavor's idea of flip flopping.

[DragonEater70]

UNVOTE:

Welcome Nurse, have you caught up on the game?

Uh

I wanna UNVOTE: for a mo here

This does not happen from a SCUM PAV.

Y’all talk about me needing to compromise?!?

YALL need to compromise.

I can see that

New townblock (IMO):
Flavor, Dragon, Pav, Hu Tao, Nurse

Let's murder Gamma / Gera.

lol, it’s never Gamma

Do you think it's Gera / Purple? Could explain why they shot you twice.

[DragonEater70]

I did not mean to unvote. Clicked while typing.

VOTE: Hu Tao

Disappointing

Okay I guess I owe you a look into scum Hu Tao

I've just been distracted by RN's arrival.

[DragonEater70]

Of course you are 1sbp

[DragonEater70]

Tbh even if Flavor

weren't

conftown I think he'd been transparently town here.

If he were scum I would have been elimmed a long time ago.

[DragonEater70]

Wait

Is Nurse a scum BP???

[DragonEater70]

There is no fucking way mod would do

Cop/vig/jk/bp against roleblocker with no juggernaut.

[DragonEater70]

I thought RN was just claiming for fun

Is this a serious claim, Nurse

[DragonEater70]

I think the middle one makes most sense

If there was stronfman it should have been used on you

Unless scum wasted it on Thomith

[DragonEater70]

Wait

Is Nurse a scum BP???

You actually think I'm Scum if I claim 1-Shot BP?

I think you know better.

I think the setup doesn't make sense

I do think you have been towny by play though

[DragonEater70]

Yeah I trust you can do that, T3 has a fucking monster queued up

[DragonEater70]

Wait, RN always claims 1 shot BP, it is a fake claim

That's literally what I was saying earlier.

[DragonEater70]

Anyway

Nurse being obvtown makes me feel worse about other slots

But here's the cool part: because I am town and not scum I am not going to randomly vote gera or Hu Tao, I am going to think about it and come back to you with an answer.

[DragonEater70]

Ah, i think this is town RN.

Damn it, Dragon, i can see you as scum so much here, but i town read you by tone

I know :3

[DragonEater70]

So next to the quote button there's a comic speech bubble. If you click it you add the post to a "multiquote". So you do it for all the posts you want to quote then you press the button that sayd quote in the bottom right corner of the screen.

[DragonEater70]

Also sorry for not being here a while

I'm more leaning town on Pav because of his last few pages but I don't really know who would be scum if he isn't. Maybe Geraint and Gamma but idk.

[DragonEater70]

Lemme check myself before taking someone this one is wary of at face value

Okay checks out thank you :salute:
VOTE: Laplacian

Looks like you're just voting them since you're getting heat too.

VOTE: HPE

Might be because I don't see the reason for the Lap scumread though

Heat? From who?? One guy?? Get real.

I won't steal it

However, I'll use this pagebottom to say I'm fine with a Pav/Flavor/Dragon town core for now

And I'm also going to revote HPE

VOTE: HPE

snoreeee mimimimimi. includes self in the towncore too...

Do you think DE70 putting himself in his towncore is suspicious?

I think you thinking it's suspicious is suspicious. Sounds like an NAI thing regardless of who does it.

286!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm not partnered with hpe, look at it discrediting me at every post

I agree that this is quite unpartnered

[DragonEater70]

@Purple - join Hu tao with us.

Purple don't let them pressure you. What are your reads?

I remember the time when Purple's only vote of the game was to hammer HPE when I was already gonna do it the next morning

That was neat

It was mostly because you said you were going to do it, and it was very clear that hpe scum
Right now this is less the case for me anyway

Are you voting anyone currently?

not really
maybe tomorrow, We have at least four days, and that's something more impactful than just talking

I do generally support voting for hu tao

Do something, Purple. Do any of these things.

At the moment my thought is that you are probably a town, I don't really see a reason for you to act like that if you are scum then, it works out

same for dragon, But less because of the part of the role and because it really makes sense to me that if he was scum he wouldn't kill to pretend to be a jailkeeper (or in general, for that matter)

random nurse leaning to town, I don't have a specific problem with voting for him because some of the things annoy me a bit, but not my preference and it would be a bit unwise so no

I have no idea about gamma, so nothing
I guess that more town then scum

I have no idea about gera either because I don't understand the logic behind their actions neither as scum nor as town but less neutral than gamma

hu tao makes sense as scum, not 100% sure, I will re-read things she wrote later


On another topic, how did you quote more than one thing?
Sorry if something here is written weird

Questions because Flavor is not seeing a thought process from you and honestly I am not either:

Do you think it makes sense that scum would kill Flavor twice? Who would scum be for that to happen?

Why does Hu Tao makes sense as scum for you?

Why doesn't Pav make sense as scum to you?

[DragonEater70]

Yep

That's kinda why I allowed myself to not be here a lot.

[DragonEater70]

@Purple - join Hu tao with us.

Purple don't let them pressure you. What are your reads?

I remember the time when Purple's only vote of the game was to hammer HPE when I was already gonna do it the next morning

That was neat

It was mostly because you said you were going to do it, and it was very clear that hpe scum
Right now this is less the case for me anyway

Are you voting anyone currently?

not really
maybe tomorrow, We have at least four days, and that's something more impactful than just talking

I do generally support voting for hu tao

Do something, Purple. Do any of these things.

At the moment my thought is that you are probably a town, I don't really see a reason for you to act like that if you are scum then, it works out

same for dragon, But less because of the part of the role and because it really makes sense to me that if he was scum he wouldn't kill to pretend to be a jailkeeper (or in general, for that matter)

random nurse leaning to town, I don't have a specific problem with voting for him because some of the things annoy me a bit, but not my preference and it would be a bit unwise so no

I have no idea about gamma, so nothing
I guess that more town then scum

I have no idea about gera either because I don't understand the logic behind their actions neither as scum nor as town but less neutral than gamma

hu tao makes sense as scum, not 100% sure, I will re-read things she wrote later


On another topic, how did you quote more than one thing?
Sorry if something here is written weird

Questions because Flavor is not seeing a thought process from you and honestly I am not either:

Do you think it makes sense that scum would kill Flavor twice? Who would scum be for that to happen?

Why does Hu Tao makes sense as scum for you?

Why doesn't Pav make sense as scum to you?

Maybe? I wouldn't try to kill him in the first place, but it makes sense that if someone saves him once, he won't have protection again
It's kinda risky, and there were other players to kill, so I wouldn't count on it

Mostly by vibe, gamma town, cw/random nurse scum, you scum, Gera can be both, as scum they will probably let whoever is with them to decide

I'm pretty sure I've already said somewhere why I think that way

I don't know how he plays scum, so maybe I'm wrong about that

but the situation as it is, (sort of) good for scum, maybe except for the part where he have a lot of votes on him

i don't see a reason for him to try to change it, assuming he is scum. Also trying to make the game less stuck, not really effective and i don't think thats make sense for scum

That doesn't answer my question. I asked who it would make sense to Kill Flavor twice, and who it wouldn't make sense to kill him twice.

Can you say it again?

Can you elaborate?

[DragonEater70]

OMG hi Black!

[DragonEater70]

Black stop scumreading me for "TMI". It's never TMI (see Don't Fall in the Volcano).

Pedit: no I'm not scum this time

Also my TR on Hu Tao is partly based on that game.

[DragonEater70]

Flavor is confirmed vigilante.
Dragoneater has claimed JK, and claimed targeting Flavor last 2 nights. No kills last two nights.
Everybody else has claimed vanilla.

Wait really

Dragon fake claimed JK and also no-killed in a game like a month ago

Dragon are you seriously trying that trick again

The fact that I did it a month ago is exactly why I wouldn't be doing it this game if I were scum. It'd be too obvious, and I don't play scum that way.

[DragonEater70]

Another scum post

Dragon I'm having a really hard time believing your scumread on HPE was natural. This was the third post of HPE's you called scummy, and it only had 4 posts

Seems informed to me. Your instinct isn't this good

What if ir is? Or Alternatively, what if it was just luck?

Also you should keep in mind I had just played a game with scum!HPE like 2 months ago and I felt the vibe of these posts was super similar to that one.

[DragonEater70]

BTW

Flavor, the reason I haven't been very excited to sheep you onto Hu Tao has to do with seeing you try to push town!Tao in the other game. So with no disrespect meant, I am aware of the possibility that you have a wrong meta read on her.

[DragonEater70]

Another scum post

Dragon I'm having a really hard time believing your scumread on HPE was natural. This was the third post of HPE's you called scummy, and it only had 4 posts

Seems informed to me. Your instinct isn't this good

What if ir is? Or Alternatively, what if it was just luck?

Also you should keep in mind I had just played a game with scum!HPE like 2 months ago and I felt the vibe of these posts was super similar to that one.

Can you elaborate on this vibe

I have no idea how you "elaborate on vibes".

It just felt like the same general tone of posting as that scum game.

[DragonEater70]

BTW

Flavor, the reason I haven't been very excited to sheep you onto Hu Tao has to do with seeing you try to push town!Tao in the other game. So with no disrespect meant, I am aware of the possibility that you

may

have a wrong meta read on her.

EBWOP

[DragonEater70]

I actually specifically called Dragon for bussing HPE earlier, both on Day 1 when he moved off of HPE when it gained traction, and on Day 3 when he vote sat early. He stopped me from vigging HPE (he had no like true way of knowing, but like…), and by HPE’s play, that one knew they were the fade yesterday

Yeah I think this is scum Dragon tbh. The more I hear the more I want to just flip this.

But Hu Tao and Geraint were both in that game as well, so weird play if scum

I agree here though which gives me doubt, but the whole bussing possiblity feels awful. I really think Dragon's early scumread of HPE feels unnatural

May I remind you again that the last time you SR'd me for TMI you were wrong? K.

I just have strong reads for weak reasons as town.

[DragonEater70]

You'll also notice I unvoted HPE, because I acknowledged it was a weak reason, then decided to revote because my gut told me it was correct.

[DragonEater70]

Dragon would have no killed two nights in a row if scum here

Yep, he did it in this game that I keep referencing. And he also called me town super early that game when I hadn't done much, similar to what he did with Hu this game

I'm trying to decide if scum!Dragon would pull the same stunt in games that are so close together

Did it work in that game?

Yes, but my play this game andthat game had been vastly different. In that one I wasn't even efforting.

[DragonEater70]

That's great

That's what I wanted since Day 1

So let's go gera? Or idk maybe Black but I do wanna see if she's gonna change her read or just tunnel and what else she thinks about the game.

[DragonEater70]

Sorry for low level of content these past few days, I have been feeling burnt out from mafia in general and I also have much less free time than I used to. I do think I will be able to do a more meaningful contribution this evening.

[DragonEater70]

I fake claimed Vig in Dragon’s LN, and rolled Vig here, so it’s kinda funny if that happened to Drag too

It did

[DragonEater70]

Sorry for low level of content these past few days, I have been feeling burnt out from mafia in general and I also have much less free time than I used to. I do think I will be able to do a more meaningful contribution this evening.

Relatable

Can you go into detail about why Hu is town?

Basically, I get the same vobes from her as from Mini 2321 and maybe the booneytoonz game

I honestly forgot which games I was basing this on but trust me she was town in some recent games and felt the same vibes here

Additionally I mindmelded with her reads early on, for example the scumread on HPE

Additionally I don't think she'd hard defend me like this as scum

[DragonEater70]

@Dragon
@Hu

Why do you scumread Pav?

Basically? It's a PoE thing of "yeah sure his posting his good om surface level, but I have much deeper townreads on like most other slots so I am gonna ignore this surface level towniness", combined woth the fact that everything he's posted feels fakable.

Alsl combined with Kyouko's scum case on him which to be fully honest I kinda forgot right now but it doesn't make it invalid because I did read it back then and thought it made sense.

And also combined with the fact that he has discredited every single push I've made on HPE and if I recall the VC correctly, wasn't even on HPE elim wagon.

And also combined with the fact that HPE TR'd the worst posts in his ISO (IMHO) which is just weird to me.

And also there's how he's been pandering to Flavor pretty obviously. Like Hu Tao and I have been clashing with Flavor at times because instead of just sheeping him, we cared about our reads. But with Pav it feels like he doesn't really care about his reads being correct as much as he cares about being in agreement with Flavor, which is weird to me. I can probably quote the specific posts that show this tomorrow (I'll also quote when HPE townread bad posts by Pav and I can also quote AGAIN the times he discredited my pushes on HPE).

[DragonEater70]

Goodnight.

[DragonEater70]

Sorry for low level of content these past few days, I have been feeling burnt out from mafia in general and I also have much less free time than I used to. I do think I will be able to do a more meaningful contribution this evening.

Relatable

And yeah kinda sucks

Life is hard right now. Like, I'm getting a lot done but it's really tiring.

[DragonEater70]

Votecount 4.12

With 8 players alive, it takes 5 votes to eliminate. Day 4 ends in (expired on 2024-01-19 22:02:50).

Votecount

Pavowski (3)

- Hu Tao, DragonEater70, geraintm

Black (1)

- Flavor Leaf

DragonEater70 (1)

- Black

Hu Tao (1)

- Random Nurse

Purplemango (1)

- Pavowski

Not Voting (1)

- Purplemango

Flavour

Flavor why are you voting Black?

Not opposed just curious.

[DragonEater70]

Been there all game, Black.

I don't think it's a real read and she is purposely avoiding going into detail about it

How is this not a real read? I've explained my read over and over and over. I'm sorry you don't agree with it, but this is how I base my reads. I've not been wrong on him in any of my games.

I've explained over and over and over how it's a bad read and instead of reevaluating you're just ignoring all my points. It doesn't feel like you want to solve for Dragon. That's because you already know his alignment and are committed to the pocket attempt

Okay. Since you're new I'll level with you. Tell me why Dragon is scum here then.

I think Dragon might be town actually

You're scum though

Then why are you shading her for townreading me?

Or, let's put it that way:
Why am I town? If you can give a better reason that Hu Tao then maybe you do have a poiny that she isn't trying to solve me.

[DragonEater70]

@Dragon - I just kinda have a soul town read on Hu Tao.

And the fact I can’t explain more of that….sounds very familiar.

And the fact i also see some type of intangible with you that I have a hard time coming from scum DESPITE thinking a lot of your stuff is scummy, i don’t really think you’d make a lot of that stuff as scum.

One no kill makes sense to help give credit to a JK claim.

Two is A LOT to do, but 2nd no kill still didn’t add an extra day, so sure.

But there is an intangible Dragon’s had this game. And for Dragon to be scum, it would require a pretty high level of scum play, and I was originally giving Dragon the benefit of the doubt that they could be there, and then I saw the scum game Black linked and Black pointing out similarities.

I think it’s admirable of Black to put this effort in, but I do think Black inherently is pushing a scum agenda in a way that makes sense to do in the given gamestate.

With Gamma, Gamma and I have been playing together almost a decade, I’ve been scum who burned her many a time.

I convinced her to vote a role cop confirmed Miller in 3p ELO to win a scum game. I’ve misfaded her as scum.

She’s correctly called me out as scum multiple times.

While it’s a big project for her, after she went away, her voice and pressure stopped being able to affect me so much.

This is exactly what it was like with Bingle in Classic Commercials. I would catch them, make a big case, then they come in to patch the holes and actively ease my paranoia on them.

Gamma started to do the same, not as obviously, but she’s not as logical a player as Bingle is. Bingle uses logic and plays a logical town as scum, apparently with some AtE.

Gamma coming in pushing Pav makes sense in a world where she thinks I’m town reading Dragon/Hu Tao.

But then she switched to Hu Tao because I was pushing in the 3.

I think Pav could be correct that it’s Purple here as well, so Joyboy (Gamma-Black)/Purple/HPE makes a lot of sense to me.

I’m not 100% sure that Geraint or Pav isn’t scum here right now. HPE talked about how that one would never be scum with CW, and then Gamma reinforced that idea. So it’s not ‘impossible’ it’s there either for me right now, but I think they were being genuine with that too.

A big yes to this post.

I feel we're finally on the same page since when we limmed HPE.

[DragonEater70]

And yeah, my Hu Tao soulread is the same one you have.

[DragonEater70]

I'll probably switch to Black but I need to finish reading up.

Do I jail you or do I try to block the kill?

[DragonEater70]

If Dragon was scum he would have no reason to no kill 3 nights in a row, especially when no one was sus of him

Do you think this is exclusive to Dragon or do you think there are other players that would no-kill?

I could see flavor doing it as like a gambit if he was in a bad situation and had to as scum. But most players wouldn't.

I'm curious why you seem to think Dragon wouldn't no kill as scum when he did it twice in Flavorless Hell. It wasn't really the optimal play there either and the only person that really suspected him was you

I only did it once. My kill was blocked N2 because I tried to shoot the hider.

[DragonEater70]

So FL is mechanically confirmed?

There's no possible one-shot kill roll with scum in this setup?

Nope

[DragonEater70]

If Dragon was scum he would have no reason to no kill 3 nights in a row, especially when no one was sus of him

Do you think this is exclusive to Dragon or do you think there are other players that would no-kill?

I could see flavor doing it as like a gambit if he was in a bad situation and had to as scum. But most players wouldn't.

I'm curious why you seem to think Dragon wouldn't no kill as scum when he did it twice in Flavorless Hell. It wasn't really the optimal play there either and the only person that really suspected him was you

HE DID IT TWICE THERE AND HERE.

Okay, we are living in a Dragon or Black scum world.

Tinfoil: we’re living in a Dragon AND Black scum world.

You're all over the place

You should read the game me and him just lost as town in. This is nothing

I agree

In that one Flavor solved the entire scum team, then decided to kill his biggest townread, then almost solved the scum team again (but was pocketed too well by Naerys).

[DragonEater70]

Here’s my idea:

Fade Black. Dragon jails me either way. If she’s town, fade Dragon.

If she’s scum, same thing.

Let’s go Black->Dragon.

If Dragon is ever blocked to get me killed, i will get a vig shot.

What I am not getting is why does either of our alignments imply anything about the other's alignment.

And specifically why me allegedly no killing twice (in fact it was only once) relate to this.

[DragonEater70]

If this game is Geraint/Purple scum team, this is silly.

But like, funny still.

Yep.

[DragonEater70]

the gamestate was good for scum, town were stuck and there was really no progress in a certain direction He has no reason to try to change it or promote things so that they happen, it's better for him to leave it as it is/try to confuse even more, not fix it

So you are saying that as scum, Pav would be happy with the gamestate, right? Well, don't you feel he was happy with the gamestate? Because that's what I felt. So I don't fully understand why that makes him town.

[DragonEater70]

From you POV, I mean

[DragonEater70]

But anyway I do see Pav as slightly more towny recently

And I agree that Black is pushing a scum agenda

So...

VOTE: Black

[DragonEater70]

Kill Dragon if Black is town.

I still don't get why

[DragonEater70]

Flavor it'd be nice if you answer questions such as "should I jail you" or "why does my alignmwnt somehow relate to Black's"

[DragonEater70]

Because I think she knows you're town

Okay

I'm not convinced you are town but I have started to think that there's no way you try the same stunt as scum in back to back games. It just doesn't seem very likely, especially considering multiple people in this game were in that game too

True

[DragonEater70]

I'm curious what scum agenda you think I'm pushing though. Show me that this is a real read of yours and not just you latching onto FL in order to misfade me

I thought saying Hu Tao is scum for TRing me is a scum agenda since it basically undermines the town core that I have tried very hard to have and finally managed to get.

[DragonEater70]

Is it like 100% guaranteed? Nah

Would I prefer Pav over you today? Probs.

But I'm also very done with this day phase and I don't think flipping you is the end of the world if you are town.

[DragonEater70]

If you convince Flavor to vote Pav I'll vote Pav.

[DragonEater70]

Why are you still sheeping Flavor around? I think it's obvious just from the last several pages that his reads can't be trusted

I am not sheeping him?

How is saying "if you can convince person whose vote I need to kill Pav, to kill Pav, I'll happily kill Pav" sheeping Flavor?

[DragonEater70]

Because several others won't

[DragonEater70]

Look if you can wagon Pav without Leaf ramming over you, be my guest. I am NOT trying that.

[DragonEater70]

Maybe this is me not understanding the game state but why do you think you need FL's vote to fade Pav?

I've been trying to fade Pav the entire day phase and all I got in return is a bunch of people voting me? Including Gamma btw who's your predecessor.

[DragonEater70]

FL is conftown so people will naturally sheep him

[DragonEater70]

Except the Dragon / Hu Tao gang, which I think you might be allowed to join if you are town.

[DragonEater70]

BTW, Yes Flavor, this is me being scum with Black and openly scheming together on how to fade your top townread.

[DragonEater70]

And Dragon, why are you trying to make to deals to move off Black when the Black wagon is only You, me, and Hu Tao, the 3 people you have tried to have coming together the whole game, onto one of YOUR wagons you wanted from earlier that I had originally had zero interest in?

Notice I haven't moved off

And the answer is idk

[DragonEater70]

Votecount 4.14

With 8 players alive, it takes 5 votes to eliminate. Day 4 ends in (expired on 2024-01-19 22:02:50).

Votecount

Black (3)

- Hu Tao, Flavor Leaf, DragonEater70

Hu Tao (2)

- Random Nurse, Black

Purplemango (2)

- Pavowski, geraintm

Not Voting (1)

- Purplemango

Flavour

It'd be real fun if both scum are voting Purple tbh

[DragonEater70]

And Dragon, why are you trying to make to deals to move off Black when the Black wagon is only You, me, and Hu Tao, the 3 people you have tried to have coming together the whole game, onto one of YOUR wagons you wanted from earlier that I had originally had zero interest in?

Notice I haven't moved off

And the answer is idk

I guess I am just getting slightly swayed by Black's frustration.

[DragonEater70]

Why are people fine with letting Hu get by with lazy ass reads

What do you want us to do though? Blacklist her? Policy elim her even when she's cearly town?

Yes, it's annoying but it is what it is.

[DragonEater70]

The only thing really pinging me about Pav is his wishy-washy read on me. It feels like he is keeping his options open to vote me if he needs to

I would much rather fade Hu Tao but I will go Pav if it means I get to live

Also, I thought this post was so openly scummy it probably comes from town.

Like town!Black is normally LAMIST as duck, but I think scum!Black is even more LAMIST and that's not it.

[DragonEater70]

sorry for being annoying

You aren't annoying.

Your lack of reasoning is sometimes annoying but that's not the same as you being annoying.

You are pretty cool, Hu Tao. In my top 15 favorite players on this site.

[DragonEater70]

There's gotta be a way FL is scum here. Something mechanical that everyone is overlooking. Feels too agenda driven

The only way FL is scum is if a Vigilante fakeclaimed VT in order to throw the game, in which case you can blame them for throwing postgame, but I am not going to even consider this possibility, the same way that if somebody fakes a cop guilty on a townie which flips town I won't consider the possibility that they are town who gambitted.

I do wonder if scum!Black is tone deaf enough to actually push this as a possibility.

I'm gonna think about this.

[DragonEater70]

I'm not going to complain about you guys hammering Black while I was asleep. I'm mainly disappointed in myself that I went to sleep without unvoting her, because I think she had some really obvious towntells and if I cared a bit more I'd found them in time.

But honestly I really don't have any WIM left for this game. I was already burnt out the previous day phase.

So I am not going to spend a lot of effort defending myself or Hu Tao today, nor convincing people of my solve. I just want this game over.

Anyhow, judging by the final VC, I am 90% sure the scumteam is exactly Pav/Purple.

VOTE: Pav

Dragon over here talking like Black isn't already gift wrapped lol

Yeah, I woke up, saw a bunch of new pages, started responding to them and suddenly the thread got locked. But as I said, it's wholly my fault for not unvoting.

[DragonEater70]

It was the Double Shadow Operation, or DSO for short.

Hu Tao played shadowing Dragon. Pav played shadowing Flavor.

Interesting

Let's kill Pav and you vig whoever you want out of Hu Tao / Purple. I won't jail you.

[DragonEater70]

Convince me.

This is endgame and when you should be trying MORE to convince that is the case.

If you think that’s the solve, CONVINCE ME. If you are right, we need to come to it together.

I really don't have the energy to

Like honestly, I am exhausted of this game. I am not even sure my read on Hu Tao is correct, though I want it to be.

And like I am going to take a 3 month break from playing mafia (not modding though, I love modding) after this game. In all seriousness.

But I'll try to convince you anyway:

I don't even know how to articulate my thoughts. I have a soul read on Hu Tao and I don't feel she's pocketing me. She pocketed me in her last scum game and it was a different vibe.

I am not sure why you townread HT last day phase, but after scumreading her for most of the phase you suddenly had her as a top TR. I feel that's telling of her alignment because I know how you guys tend to interact as T/T, and it feels the same (see: Mafia Have a Cop, Classic Commercials).

[DragonEater70]

How do you look at VC 4.10 and say the scum team is Purple/Pav?

Easily?

[DragonEater70]

The entire day yesterday was a lot of TvT which Pav and Purple both coasted through.

Then we finally settled on Black, and Pav said "cool there are actually enough votes for this lim", and voted, and told Purple to hammer in the scum PT.

[DragonEater70]

Pav didn't get on me because there weren't enough town votes on me. There were enough town votes on Black, so he got on her. Easy.

[DragonEater70]

Purple busses as scum

Having his hammer on HPE be his first vote in the game is +scum to him (though only slightly because I can see him also doing it as town). Then hammering a miselim after he never did it before probably happened because Pav told him to.