Open 100 - F + E x 2 + TOG OVER! before 712

[StrangerCoug]

Hello

Gave the game a read last night before I got Budja's role PM, and let me say right now that I don't see the case on Tenchi. There was one person who was pinging my scumdar, but I don't remember and I need to go back and check. (I think it's someone who's still alive.)

I agree that we should not have talked about the masons on Day 1. Now a mason is dead. I was driven to claim vigilante on Day 1 in Open 81 partly due to discussion about the vig (because there were three kills on Night 0, a vig had to exist as per the setup that game). I was kept around to endgame—that's apparently what you get for announcing targets.

[StrangerCoug]

There was one person who was pinging my scumdar, but I don't remember and I need to go back and check. (I think it's someone who's still alive.)

Ah, yes. Wall-E.

/confirm

Are we told the way of killing or we just find/not find dead bodies?

This makes me think you have a killing role.

Vote: hp [leaves]

I would argue that it's not a scummy question. Not important to ask, but not scummy to ask either.

Vote: Tenchi

Let's see what this does.

What the hell, Wall-E!? A random vote after you made a read vote?

Vote: Wall-E

Happy birthday!

I'm a huge Tenchi Muyo fan!

Confirm vote: Tenchi

Again, what the hell?

I disapprove of this lynch, but can't say why because it's verboten (apparently).

Why wouldn't you be allowed to voice why you don't like popsofctown's lynch?

I thought pops was a bad lynch because I thought he'd soft-claimed mason.

Why didn't you say so earlier, damn it? ><

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP: read = real

[StrangerCoug]

Tenchi, not seeing the case on somebody ≠ defending that person per se. I simply fail to understand the case on you. If your concern is #327, I would also be defending someone whose lynch I actually understand, which makes no sense.

[StrangerCoug]

Further, your vote on me was for... what?

You had a legitimate reason for one of your Day 1 votes, and then proceeded to revert to random voting. Why?

Your interpretation of my vote comes with zero commentary on my case on Tenchi. I would appreciate your input on my case on Tenchi now that you've denounced the whole thing.

Not seeing the case on somebody ≠ denying the case's existence either. Read #330 again.

[StrangerCoug]

Not seeing the case on somebody ≠ denying the case's existence either.

Uhm... I don't understand how this is the same as

Tenchi, not seeing the case on somebody ≠ defending that person per se.

Please clarify.

Once again, by my not seeing the case on you, I mean I do not understand it. Dismissing something solely because you don't understand it is invalid (which is where your first quote comes in), and you have to know what the case is in the first place to do anything about it let alone defend it (hence the second quote).

[StrangerCoug]

It was not a random vote on Tenchi. I never said it was. SC made that up.

Congratulations, you've just posted the first bullshit I've seen in 2009. "Let's see what this does", as far as I'm concerned, is random as you could have used the same reasoning for anybody else.

[StrangerCoug]

"Let's see what this does." wasn't my reason for voting him either.

It was the only thing I saw in your post other than the vote, so I interpreted it as the reason. Your confirm vote is laughable too.

I'm going to spoil the surprise and say, "Read my case on Tenchi."

Which I don't understand. For at least the third time now. Meaning that somebody has to sum it up for me.

/confirm

Are we told the way of killing or we just find/not find dead bodies?

This makes me think you have a killing role.

Vote: hp [leaves]

I would argue that it's not a scummy question. Not important to ask, but not scummy to ask either.

You're wrong about it not being important AND about it not being a scummy question. It's very important, but the answer is obvious (see: werewolf role, as someone pointed out), which is why HP's concern rubbed me wrong. As I said before, the werewolf (on mafiascum, anyway) has no other purpose than kill flavor distinction, which we need to help us find the scum. QED the answer WAS important and it was ALSO scummy to ask about, in my opinion, due to the fact that most town would probably jump to the same conclusion I did rather than needing 100% mod validation.

Regardless, I'm now thinking HP was just not giving the thread much thought rather than scum wondering aloud about his own role.

First off, don't strawman me. I specifically denied that the question was important

TO ASK

. I did not deny that the question itself was important. The fact that the answer is obvious makes asking it unimportant.

I believe that asking about kill flavor and especially whether or not there were any deaths is a newb tell given when it was asked. I do not see it as a reliable scum tell in this case. In fact, your stance is now identical to mine—hp [leaves] simply wasn't paying attention to the thread. I'd bring up a post I've seen elsewhere about night kills that is an accurate reflection of my beliefs, but it's unfortunately in an ongoing.

I thought pops was a bad lynch because I thought he'd soft-claimed mason.

Why didn't you say so earlier, damn it? ><

IT WAS VERBOTEN TO DISCUSS MASONRY AT THE TIME!!!! I GOT SHOUTED DOWN WHEN I TRIED!!!!! how many times am i going to be asked this? he wasn't a mason, so what's with this question?

When you're asked a question about a specific event, future unknowns do not apply. You thought at the time that he was a mason. You learned after the time I'm talking about that he wasn't, so you cannot use your knowledge otherwise to question my question.

Let's say you hate school so much that you want the principal dead. You kill someone you think is her, but instead turns out to be your best friend's mother. When the police come to question you, you cannot use "I didn't know she wasn't my principal" as an acceptable excuse. Similar to what you're trying to do here.

are you reading just my posts by isolation or ---?

I've read the whole game before my replacement was even announced, then I went back and checked who was pinging my scumdar because I had forgotten overnight. It turned out to be you, so I looked at you in isolation.

[StrangerCoug]

Well, see, Tenchi is the mafia. I hope that helps.

It doesn't. Not only is it vague, but since this is a multiball and I am unaware of the existence of any evidence that Tenchi killed hp [leaves] over Doc, you're giving me a slight werewolf vibe with this statement.

/confirm

Are we told the way of killing or we just find/not find dead bodies?

This makes me think you have a killing role.

Vote: hp [leaves]

I would argue that it's not a scummy question. Not important to ask, but not scummy to ask either.

You're wrong about it not being important AND about it not being a scummy question. It's very important, but the answer is obvious (see: werewolf role, as someone pointed out), which is why HP's concern rubbed me wrong. As I said before, the werewolf (on mafiascum, anyway) has no other purpose than kill flavor distinction, which we need to help us find the scum. QED the answer WAS important and it was ALSO scummy to ask about, in my opinion, due to the fact that

most town would probably jump to the same conclusion I did rather than needing 100% mod validation.

Regardless, I'm now thinking HP was just not giving the thread much thought rather than scum wondering aloud about his own role.

First off, don't strawman me.

I specifically denied that the question was important

TO ASK

. I did not deny that the question itself was important.

The fact that the answer is obvious makes asking it unimportant.

I believe that asking about kill flavor and especially whether or not there were any deaths is a newb tell given when it was asked. I do not see it as a reliable scum tell in this case. In fact, your stance is now identical to mine—hp [leaves] simply wasn't paying attention to the thread. I'd bring up a post I've seen elsewhere about night kills that is an accurate reflection of my beliefs, but it's unfortunately in an ongoing.

In the underlined part you make a distinction which, I believe, is silly.

As subtle as the distinction may be, ignoring it is twisting my words and therefore misrepresenting me.

Then you qualify it with a point that I already made, but you use it in a manner which is untruthful: The obviousness of the answer doesn't make asking it unimportant, it makes it a scumtell, as I've already said in the blue words above.

This makes absolutely no sense to me. If the answer is obvious, then why is it important to ask the question in the first place? And under what circumstances is it important for somebody to ask a scummy question?

I thought pops was a bad lynch because I thought he'd soft-claimed mason.

Why didn't you say so earlier, damn it? ><

IT WAS VERBOTEN TO DISCUSS MASONRY AT THE TIME!!!! I GOT SHOUTED DOWN WHEN I TRIED!!!!! how many times am i going to be asked this? he wasn't a mason, so what's with this question?

When you're asked a question about a specific event, future unknowns do not apply. You thought at the time that he was a mason. You learned after the time I'm talking about that he wasn't, so you cannot use your knowledge otherwise to question my question.

Let's say you hate school so much that you want the principal dead. You kill someone you think is her, but instead turns out to be your best friend's mother. When the police come to question you, you cannot use "I didn't know she wasn't my principal" as an acceptable excuse. Similar to what you're trying to do here.

I don't think you're reading me carefully. What is the purpose behind the question in red in the first place? That's the question I was asking (and validating).

You did little to stall popsofctown's lynch. The second to last post of yours before you voice your disapproval, you say that you would prefer lynching Budja over Tenchi but would be fine going after the latter. I buy your answer that you didn't say why you disapproved of a popsofctown lynch because nobody let you talk about the masons, but your best weapon therefore was to persuade the town that Budja and Tenchi, in your opinion, were better lynch options than popsofctown. Push Budja and Tenchi as much as necessary to achieve the desired effect.

I agree with everything else you said, but it has no bearing on the conversation, like a man who states a fact about weather during a discussion about sports.

It takes one to know one.

are you reading just my posts by isolation or ---?

I've read the whole game before my replacement was even announced, then I went back and checked who was pinging my scumdar because I had forgotten overnight. It turned out to be you, so I looked at you in isolation.[/quote]

That's reassuring to hear, but I have evidence that you did not, in fact, read the thread, or only skimmed it. In either case, you did not comprehend the thread, which is the true goal of "reading" the thread.[/quote]
Present it.

The track you are on with my early game comment on HP Leaves has been done already. The only reason I'm engaging you right now is that it seems to be a recurring problem people are having with me, and I want to make sure I am clearly understood.

Then why am I the only person you're attacking for misunderstanding you?

[StrangerCoug]

I know. Wall-E is still scum.

vote count

wall-e (2): strangercoug, seraphim
tenchi (1): wall-e
peter? (1): tenchi

not voting: everyone else

with 9 alive it is 5 to lynch

[StrangerCoug]

I know. Wall-E is still scum.

Why? Aside from you not liking my case on Tenchi?

I haven't forgotten about you strawmanning me to make it look like I said something other than what I said, nor have I forgotten about your craplogic. See below.

C) I said, "See, Tenchi is scum."

No, you said something more specific than that:

Well, see, Tenchi is the mafia.

Nice job backtracking your statement when werewolves also exist.

Confirm vote: Wall-E.

/confirm

Are we told the way of killing or we just find/not find dead bodies?

This makes me think you have a killing role.

Vote: hp [leaves]

I would argue that it's not a scummy question. Not important to ask, but not scummy to ask either.

You're wrong about it not being important AND about it not being a scummy question. It's very important, but the answer is obvious (see: werewolf role, as someone pointed out), which is why HP's concern rubbed me wrong. As I said before, the werewolf (on mafiascum, anyway) has no other purpose than kill flavor distinction, which we need to help us find the scum. QED the answer WAS important and it was ALSO scummy to ask about, in my opinion, due to the fact that

most town would probably jump to the same conclusion I did rather than needing 100% mod validation.

Regardless, I'm now thinking HP was just not giving the thread much thought rather than scum wondering aloud about his own role.

First off, don't strawman me.

I specifically denied that the question was important

TO ASK

. I did not deny that the question itself was important.

The fact that the answer is obvious makes asking it unimportant.

I believe that asking about kill flavor and especially whether or not there were any deaths is a newb tell given when it was asked. I do not see it as a reliable scum tell in this case. In fact, your stance is now identical to mine—hp [leaves] simply wasn't paying attention to the thread. I'd bring up a post I've seen elsewhere about night kills that is an accurate reflection of my beliefs, but it's unfortunately in an ongoing.

In the underlined part you make a distinction which, I believe, is silly.

As subtle as the distinction may be, ignoring it is twisting my words and therefore misrepresenting me.

I didn't ignore anything. You're reaching.

Then do these for me:

• Prove that there is absolutely no difference between "it is unimportant to ask the question" and "the question itself is unimportant". Not that there is such an insignificant difference that they can for most purposes be treated the same in practice; that there is
  ABSOLUTELY NO
  difference.
  
• Answer these, which you've so gladly skipped over in your response:

  If the answer is obvious, then why is it important to ask the question in the first place? And under what circumstances is it important for somebody to ask a scummy question?

I thought pops was a bad lynch because I thought he'd soft-claimed mason.

Why didn't you say so earlier, damn it? ><

IT WAS VERBOTEN TO DISCUSS MASONRY AT THE TIME!!!! I GOT SHOUTED DOWN WHEN I TRIED!!!!! how many times am i going to be asked this? he wasn't a mason, so what's with this question?

When you're asked a question about a specific event, future unknowns do not apply. You thought at the time that he was a mason. You learned after the time I'm talking about that he wasn't, so you cannot use your knowledge otherwise to question my question.

Let's say you hate school so much that you want the principal dead. You kill someone you think is her, but instead turns out to be your best friend's mother. When the police come to question you, you cannot use "I didn't know she wasn't my principal" as an acceptable excuse. Similar to what you're trying to do here.

I don't think you're reading me carefully. What is the purpose behind the question in red in the first place? That's the question I was asking (and validating).

You did little to stall popsofctown's lynch. The second to last post of yours before you voice your disapproval, you say that you would prefer lynching Budja over Tenchi but would be fine going after the latter. I buy your answer that you didn't say why you disapproved of a popsofctown lynch because nobody let you talk about the masons, but your best weapon therefore was to persuade the town that Budja and Tenchi, in your opinion, were better lynch options than popsofctown. Push Budja and Tenchi as much as necessary to achieve the desired effect.[/quote]

I'm sorry if you don't think I tried to dissuade pop's lynch. I disagree.[/quote]
Well, if you were unsuccessful, that's really as far as I can go here.

I agree with everything else you said, but it has no bearing on the conversation, like a man who states a fact about weather during a discussion about sports.

It takes one to know one.

are you reading just my posts by isolation or ---?

I've read the whole game before my replacement was even announced, then I went back and checked who was pinging my scumdar because I had forgotten overnight. It turned out to be you, so I looked at you in isolation.

That's reassuring to hear, but I have evidence that you did not, in fact, read the thread, or only skimmed it. In either case, you did not comprehend the thread, which is the true goal of "reading" the thread.

Present it.

I already have. You brought up an issue which I had already addressed, namely my statement about the scummyness of hp's question about kill flavor. I answered your concerns, but it made me sure you'd skimmed the thread rather than reading the posts. See below.

For the record, I admitted that it was a weak scumtell at best, but it was an early game scumtell, which are usually weak. I still stand by my opinion on the post in question of HP's.

I don't even think the scumtell is valid, but as long as we're on the same page...

[StrangerCoug]

I love how you make the "old man" story sound relevant to the game when it's really not.

If it's scummy to ask, it's a scummy question. To ask. What else do you do with a question? You can't tell a question. You can't eat it. You can't ship it off to Iraq. You can't... you get the point, I'll assume.

Very well then.

Let me try to explain MY take on hp's post once more:

The answer to the question by HP (Will kills have flavor?) was obvious in light of two flavors of mafia. Two flavors of mafia have only one utility: Kill flavor differentiation. Asking about the kill flavor distinction shows that either 1) the player is not cognizant of the utility of werewolves in mafia, which breaks down to A) the player is fixated on kill flavor, meaning they are likely to have a killing role, or B) the player is honestly just seeking clarification and is a noob, or 2) the player is not paying attention to the rules. 1a and 2 are both scumtells. The third is a sign of noobness. My comments were geared toward divining which of these were true. I have no problem unvoting a noob if he can convince me that's all there was to it. I'd like to point out that he never did.

Then along came you. You said that the question wasn't scummy to ask. You went on to say it wasn't important, either.

Which I'll address later.

I specifically denied that the question was important

TO ASK

. I did not deny that the question itself was important.

Now, you go on to claim that I strawmanned you when I said:

You're wrong about it not being important (the words, "to ask" are implied by the word "question") AND about it not being a scummy question. It's very important, but the answer is obvious (see: werewolf role, as someone pointed out), which is why HP's concern rubbed me wrong. As I said before, the werewolf (on mafiascum, anyway) has no other purpose than kill flavor distinction, which we need to help us find the scum. QED the answer WAS important and it was ALSO scummy to ask about, in my opinion, due to the fact that

most town would probably jump to the same conclusion I did rather than needing 100% mod validation.

Please help me out by cutting that block of text down into something more specific. What in there is a strawman? How is it a strawman? Do that for me and I'll feel less like you're just asking questions solely to look pro-town.

Will do:

You're wrong about it not being important (the words, "to ask" are implied by the word "question") AND about it not being a scummy question.

Strawmanning me. I never denied the importance of the question itself.

It's very important, but the answer is obvious (see: werewolf role, as someone pointed out), which is why HP's concern rubbed me wrong.

Logical fail. What's the point of asking if it's obvious?

As I said before, the werewolf (on mafiascum, anyway) has no other purpose than kill flavor distinction, which we need to help us find the scum.

No objections to this.

QED the answer WAS important and it was ALSO scummy to ask about, in my opinion, due to the fact that most town would probably jump to the same conclusion I did rather than needing 100% mod validation.

Oh, the

ANSWER

is important. Never mind the question.

Moving on:

Questions time: What do you think of my case on Tenchi? Can you give me some analysis of it? If not, why not?

Looking back, it is starting to make some sense now, but I owe this thread another reread. What I think is Tenchi's scummiest post, though, is #124 where he says he'll STFU and then proceeds to confirm his vote on Soveliss. Comments?

[StrangerCoug]

SC: There is a question you didn't answer in my super-long post. Can you answer it?

"I tried as hard as I felt was necessary. I even kept it vague to give an I-might-be-a-cop-who-is-telling-you-to-back-off feel. That's the strongest way I know to dissuade a lynch. What would you have done to derail said bandwagon? It's interesting to me that you're Budja's replacement and you fixated on this detail of my history."

The easiest way in this setup would be to prove that the case on him is crap, and unfortunately, I understand the reasoning behind his lynch. If I were cop with an innocent on him, I'd softclaim and derail it that way. The problem, however, is that nobody in this game is a cop.

[StrangerCoug]

Um, read my response again. I said that the easiest way to derail his lynch in this setup is to prove that the case on him is crap. That's what I would have done if I were you. The only way I'm getting what you're complaining about involves my stance on the case against popsofctown, not yours (I don't see the mason soft claim, so if my real self were in the game at this point I'd be partaking in his lynch).

[StrangerCoug]

I haven't read muck extensively the argument between you two but the only reason why I don't think Wall-E is scum is that I feel scum would let townies explode and kill each other off. I don't think scum would be the first to post a case against another person.

FoS: Tenchi

for WIFOM.

[StrangerCoug]

Where is the mod?

[StrangerCoug]

Where is the mod?

Make that "Where are the replacements ThAdmiral said he was going to get?"

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: Please prod everybody.

[StrangerCoug]

Right now it's a toss-up between you and Tenchi, but only because no one else is really involved right now and I haven't gotten a chance to interact with them.

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: If you have to modkill as a last resort, go ahead.

[StrangerCoug]

hp [leaves] replaces soveliss.
I'm still talking to popsofctown about replacing. He doesn't think it's a good practice to replace into games that you've already been killed in but will do it if everyone is ok with it.

So are you all okay with it?

say yes or I'll modkill you...

He has the same beliefs of replacing back in that I do (i.e. not replacing into a game you're dead in), but if no other means of replacing Budja is available, then by all means allow popsofctown back in.

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP: I meant blueheaven.

[StrangerCoug]

My suspicion of SC is mostly caused by Budja's Day 1 posts. And voting Wall-e when he said tenchi was mafia.

Budja Day 1 I can't say anything about. Sorry. I have an important question, however: What's wrong with having two suspects?

[StrangerCoug]

My suspicion of SC is mostly caused by Budja's Day 1 posts. And voting Wall-e when he said tenchi was mafia.

Budja Day 1 I can't say anything about. Sorry. I have an important question, however: What's wrong with having two suspects?

Not having two suspects, wall-e said "tenchi is mafia".

In that case, you're misrepresenting me. I did not vote Wall-E merely for saying Tenchi was Mafia—I voted him because the first time he voted him (#118), he said "let's see what this does", which I took as a reversion to random voting. You want to accompany votes with decent cases. Only in his next post does he say Tenchi is creating a distraction. #122 was laughable in my opinion, too. Although I now see what the case on Tenchi is (however long it took me), I kept his vote because he isn't making a lot of logical sense, and I don't like part of his defense (especially the "old man" story).

[StrangerCoug]

You don't like that I said 'mafia' instead of 'scum?'

No I do not. It's called selective scumhunting. (We also have werewolves.)

[StrangerCoug]

@SC - If you don't drop the bit about wall-e saying mafia instead of scum, i'm going to.. really can't come up with humorous threats today. But dude, really, Wall-E is obv-wolf because he said "mafia" instead of "scum"? The guy still doesn't know this game doesn't have any cops in it. Besides, wouldn't being wolf be a reminder that there's two factions in the game?

He has done nothing to prove that Tenchi is Mafia over werewolf. Not paying attention is scummy to boot.

[StrangerCoug]

Well, nobody in this game is God (and not to be blasaphemous, but God would probably make the game not fun if He were playing), so not

EVERY

mistake under the sun is possible, but the less of a clue you have of what's going on...

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP:

Well, nobody in this game is God (and not to be blasphemous, but God would probably make the game not fun if He were playing), so not

EVERY

mistake under the sun is possible, but the less of a clue you have of what's going on...

Spelling fixed.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm saying in general, but your talking about the nonexistent cop does have to do with it.

vote count

wall-e (2): strangercoug, seraphim
tenchi (2): wall-e, popsofctown
peter? (1): tenchi
seraphim (1): zazier
strangercoug (1): hp [leaves]

not voting: everyone else

with 9 alive it is 5 to lynch

[StrangerCoug]

Would you like to explain why Wall-E's imaginary cops make him scummy?

Did I not just clarify that his not paying attention in general was scummy, damn it?

[StrangerCoug]

As you said, he seems to be unaware of the setup when all it takes is to read the first post. That supports my accusation of selective scumhunting.

And you can't make a good case against someone if you're not paying attention, now can you? Good cases are pro-town.

[StrangerCoug]

What about the case on Tenchi do you agree with?

The STFU bit.

What about it did you disagree with?

The distraction bit.

A point-by-point analysis of the case against him would do a lot to restore my faith in you right now, because at the moment itsmells to me like you are going through the thread, hunting for things to persecute me for, and posting them as soon as you find them. I believe that's called tunneling?

Well, it kind of helps that you're my #1 suspect and it's not exactly natural to see the pro-town part of who you want in the rope. There's not much I can throw at Tenchi, though I also suspect him somewhat.

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: Please note my sig.

have done

What about the case on Tenchi do you agree with?

The STFU bit.

Why would you agree with the weakest reason Wall-E has? I admitted that "STFU"ing was wrong, hence I didn't do it.

Now that I think about it, I see doing it as not pro-town. But I don't see how that is scummy, especially that I didn't do it.

(I still believe I have addressed all the points of Wall-E's case on me when D2 started.)

I still am waiting for HP and Peter.

My suspicions of you are weaker than of Wall-E's anyway.

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: Please prod everybody.

righto

[StrangerCoug]

Do you prefer a no lynch, Tenchi?

Why are you asking this?

[StrangerCoug]

I think it's time for an

unvote

Vote: Tenchi

Reasoning, good sir?

[StrangerCoug]

I got lynched for practically no reason but revoting tenchi. I kind of want to indulge now, since no one can earnestly use it as a tell now.

Self-meta won't give you a pass.

What makes you think popsofctown is talking about his own meta? He's simply discrediting a tell.

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: Please note my sig as well.

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: I hereby request replacement. See updated sig for reason.

[StrangerCoug]

I know, but unfortunately I can't help it

[StrangerCoug]

That was a good game, Wall-E

I have a bone to pick with somebody, though...

*bludgeons BlakAdder to death for

NEVER

posting*