Mini 738: The Town of Merrin - Game Over
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springlullaby
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springlullaby Mafia Scum
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springlullaby Mafia Scum
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dejkha wrote:
Sounds like you're overreacting way to much to what seemed like an obvious joke (calling you and two others obvscum is his confirm post).Dourgrim wrote:We have 9/12 voting so far. Not voting: GIEFF, springlullaby, dejkha
Of those three, one has posted (twice) and didn't vote. Conveniently enough, that person also has two votes on him and so could be the Day One Bandwagon-ee. And, OMGUS because he called me obvscum before I had even posted anything more than a "/confirm" in the thread.
unvote: Panzerjager
vote: GIEFF
This also looks like you're overreacting. What it looked like to me, was Springlullaby casted a random vote and that's all. This is my first time posting since I confirmed and if I joke voted, would you be on my case because it was after you said I haven't voted? This is the first chance I had to post in the game since day one started. Ever think the same for her?Dourgrim wrote:Hmmm... so springlullaby suddenly appears on the scene after I note she hasn't posted, and then casts a meaningless vote (or at least it looks meaningless due to lack of explanation) after I criticize GIEFF for not voting while posting, despite there actually being a debate of sorts going on. Odd, somewhat suspicious, and definitely not helpful.
FoS: springlullaby
FoS: Dourgrimbecause this early you seem awfully eager to write people off as possible scum for things with obvious explanations.Vote djekha
The quote post above is a variation OMGUS: suspect someone by seemingly defending someone else for an action one has/is going to commit, the effect of which is to justify one's action.
This is further scummy because, if it is my prerogative to play as I wish, I certainly don't see anything remotely recommendable in my random vote. It is also scummy because accusing someone of being 'too eager' in the random stage is piss poor play and just plain scummy.
I have read the last pages or so. My comment on them is that I don't particularly like the dynamic of this town, there is plenty of talk and speculation but not enough true aggressiveness IMO. Note here that the SK talk may be interesting in the future but not now. Right now I would like to suggest more focused fire, starting now with a djekha wagon for example.-
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springlullaby Mafia Scum
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This is an interesting argument, I'm not sure if it is scummy or not, because here you seems to be saying that a mislynch is always bad play, which is not true. Sometimes someone is scummy despite being town, and there is little reproach one can make on people being on the lynch. It is the quality of the argument put forth to explain a vote that is important.Goatrevolt wrote:
A mislynch is not in the interest of the town, but that doesn't mean everyone on that lynch is scum for making a bad play.springlullaby wrote:It is not always indicative of scum, but you must assume that town will always play in the interest of town to base scumhunting on, and in absence of attenuating circumstances, bad play is always scummy.
Townies won't always play in the best interest of town. Townies will play in what they perceive to be the best interest of the town. There's a huge difference.
Agree/disagree?-
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springlullaby Mafia Scum
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But you see, the thing here is that I did not attack djekha solely on the ground of his play being poor.Goatrevolt wrote: Agree to some extent. A mislynch is unhelpful to the town, but isn't necessarily bad play on the parts of the people involved. Ironically, I think you just proved my point.
A better example is this: Someone claims cop in their first post of the game. That is bad play. They've set themselves up to be night killed. However, it's not scummy, because scum claiming cop in their first post is a pretty stupid play. This person exhibits bad play, but that bad play is more of a townie bad play than a scummy one.
In other words, I disagree entirely about your assessment of dejkha. You're saying he's scummy because he's attacking early aggressive play (which is pro-town). I agree with you that doing so is wrong, but I don't see how it's scummy.-
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springlullaby Mafia Scum
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Oooh, I disagree. Your statement that someone can be scummy even if he's protown is bizarre. I thought "scum" meant "anti-Town", so how can someone be scum and be pro-Town at the same time.Dourgrim wrote:
Agree/disagree?
Also, you seem to be arguing that only logic carefully explained in the thread is a good reason to vote for someone. Am I really the only one who doesn't always expect perfect play and sometimes votes from the gut here? If so, that makes me kinda sad for the game.[/quote]
I disagree with you, anti-town is a descriptive which can qualify a behavior on top of being a descriptive for a role. Scum is solely a role description.
Likewise for 'pro-town', and the point of scumplay is to appear pro-town despite one's role.
As for logic, I'm not proselyte zealot of all things logical and play very much by guts myself, but even so, the quality of a vote should speak for itself. The thing with 'gut play' is that people with good intuitions are often of the same mind.-
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springlullaby Mafia Scum
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1. I'm not telling anyone how I think they should play, I am pointing out something that I think is scummy, and this is indeed my prerogative.GIEFF wrote:springlullaby wrote: The quote post above is a variation OMGUS: suspect someone by seemingly defending someone else for an action one has/is going to commit, the effect of which is to justify one's action.
This is further scummy because, if it is my prerogative to play as I wish, I certainly don't see anything remotely recommendable in my random vote. It is also scummy because accusing someone of being 'too eager' in the random stage is piss poor play and just plain scummy.
It may be your prerogative to play as you wish, but it is NOT your prerogative to tell other players they can't attack people for voting you for what seems to be bad logic.
I don't think accusing someone of being "too eager" is piss-poor at all, nor do I think it's scummy. If somebody tries to pin a case on somebody based on no substance at all (as I believe Panzer did to myko), then that really is being "too eager" and that poster should be called on it. Why do you think it's piss-poor play/scummy?
2. Put general considerations aside and examine the time at which djekha made that accusation at Dourgrim. Do you think Dourgrim's actions at the time qualify as 'too eager'? Do you think it was a justified attack on djekha's part?
I believe it was not.-
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springlullaby Mafia Scum
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And yet the conversation must start somewhere to end the random stage, and the throwing around of accusations is generally where it start. Town and scum alike want to start the conversation going, as such early accusation throwing is pretty much a null-tell in my view. Especially considering that I do not think Dourgrim's criticism of my play was extreme at this point of the game.dejkha wrote: What can I say, I think it's a little extreme to accuse someone right off the bat because of a joke in their confirm post and a joke vote as their first post. I think I've explained to Dour why I was suspicious of his reaction to both of those and no OMGUS was involved. As I said, it's my way of thinking and I think how he reacted to those was a bit much. I personally don't think it's scummy at all to think someones too eager when they go after someones confirm post. Not much other way I can say it.
You say that there was no OMGUS involved in your criticism of Dourgrim, but what was your post in aid of then? It wasn't followed with a vote, nor was it accompanied by otherwise relevant POV on this game.
The way I see it, the only effect of your post was to pre-emptively defend yourself from any criticism that may have come your way for not posting early in the game.-
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springlullaby Mafia Scum
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This looks remarkably like the 'the newbie card', or more in this instance an 'oldie card'. It amuses me but I can't say that I approve.Dourgrim wrote:I would like to first thank everyone in this game for giving me a crash course in Mafia game theory. I've been away from this game for a couple of years now, and this game is reminding me of many of the things I once knew about being a good player, and a few things I've apparently never learned. No sarcasm here, this is a good first game back for me to be in. Thanks.
Also, I would like to thank Panzer for using the term "Dourgrim-esque" in a sentence... I'm not sure if I should be flattered or worried.
Leaving my vote where it is for now, I'll come back to the game tomorrow at work and see what I see.-
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1. So they can lynch someone. So they can appears to be scumhunting. Don't you share this view?Goatrevolt wrote:
Really? Scum want to get the conversation going? Why is that?springlullafy wrote:Town and scum alike want to start the conversation going, as such early accusation throwing is pretty much a null-tell in my view.
What bothers you about it?springlullaby wrote:This looks remarkably like the 'the newbie card', or more in this instance an 'oldie card'. It amuses me but I can't say that I approve.
2. The slightly apologetic nature of it and the fact that it says about nothing game relevant.-
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Mykonian, I know for a fact that you do this kind of helpful townie act when you are scum.mykonian wrote:doesn't anybody here have the feeling that this is one big overreaction? This is going way too fast. I don't like fast wagons, esspecially not when they are early. Are you really in favor of a panzerlynch page 7? didn't think so...
Do you have anything else to say? Your thoughts on Panzer aside from the speed of the wagon please?-
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Because of the OMGUS I think is present in djekha's post. Did you miss that?Panzerjager wrote:springlullby wrote: The quote post above is a variation OMGUS: suspect someone by seemingly defending someone else for an action one has/is going to commit, the effect of which is to justify one's action.
This is further scummy because, if it is my prerogative to play as I wish, I certainly don't see anything remotely recommendable in my random vote. It is also scummy because accusing someone of being 'too eager' in the random stage is piss poor play and just plain scummy.
I have read the last pages or so. My comment on them is that I don't particularly like the dynamic of this town, there is plenty of talk and speculation but not enough true aggressiveness IMO. Note here that the SK talk may be interesting in the future but not now. Right now I would like to suggest more focused fire, starting now with a djekha wagon for example.
This is where you jump on Dejkha for calling someone too eager.
This is where Ting votes me for being too eager and overeacting.ting =) wrote:unvote. Vote:Panzerjager
For making a big thing out of a small thing.
There is no post where you jump on ting. Hence the question, Why did you jump on Dejkha and not Ting.
@Goat: I think Panzer is being scummy, I especially didn't like the post in which he said that he is usually aggressive then apologized for his play in the same breath. It is somewhat a contradiction in term. Most genuinely aggressive players are unapologetic about their play, and sustain heat pretty well too. But I'm in no hurry to see a lynch, and the Panzer wagon don't need my help now, so I'm content with letting things runs and see.-
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I never classed djekah as 'too eager', because I don't think it's a valid scumtell in the RSV stage in the first place.
What is odd in my not bringing ting? I didn't see OMGUS in his post.
The point in my djekha suspicions is that his 'too eager' accusation came at a moment when someone has critized someone else for an action that he was going to commit.-
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The use of future tense is confusing, I was refering to the mechanism of the OMGUS rather than the act in itself.
Cf the post I vote him where I explain it better:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 70#1474970-
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Yes I do. You classify as well for your vote on Dourgrim.GIEFF wrote:
Don't you think ting's vote could also be classified as calling Panzer "too eager" in the random vote stage?spriglullaby wrote:It is also scummy because accusing someone of being 'too eager' in the random stage is piss poor play and just plain scummy.
But as I already said, it wasn't the sole motive of my vote. I have answered thusly 2 times already. Are you deliberately missing the point?-
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This was in response to Goat's 202.springlultaby wrote:The use of future tense is confusing, I was refering to the mechanism of the OMGUS rather than the act in itself.
Cf the post I vote him where I explain it better:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 70#1474970-
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How is thinking someone being scummy but refusing to vote them scummy?Panzerjager wrote:Wait, SL, so You feel I'm scummy but refuse to put a vote on me? That is pretty damn scummy. Sitting the fence is terrible
I'm keeping my vote on SL
@GIEFF: Yes, I was unwilling to play. I'm currently in over my head on games right now, I have 4 games goign because I overjoined and I'm trying really hard to care in all of them. Once I get in over my head on these things it starts to feel like school and not fun.
@SL: I'm aggressive not an asshole and I think I've stood up to heat rather well., and mostly my play as been shitty due to lack of motivation.
And I'm not in any way sitting the fence. As I explained, I do think you are scummy but that doesn't mean I'm convinced you are scum. And as I have also explained, I think the wagon on you is sufficient as it is so I'm in no hurry to put you closer to a lynch.-
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Ebwop: hit submit instead of review.
I don't think I totally buy your answer as to your aggressiveness. As I said most genuinely aggressive town are unapologetic and generally don't bother apologizing for their behaviours as they genuinely think it is helpful. It also has something to do with ego. So no, I don't really like your answer.
As to sustaining heat, aggressive players are generally not shy of letting things escalate, instead of trying to appease people or offer excuses like you seem to be doing.-
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This is an acceptable summary, only Dourgrim didn't vote me, but Fos'ed me at the time.subgenius wrote:SL's argument against Dekhja, as I understand it, is that he voted for Dourgrim out of a sort of vicarious OMGUS.
1. Dourgrim votes for SL based on her casting a random vote early in the game despite actual discussion taking place and after her absence had been noted.
2. Dejkha FoS's Dourgrim and mentions that he too has been guilty of light posting, and could be one of Dourgrim's targets based on the criteria the he used to vote SL.
3. SL argues that Dejkha's FoS of Dourgrim is OMGUS because he is responding to Dourgrims vote against SL, which was based on criteria that could equally be applied to either SL or Dejkha. It's sort of an OMGUS once removed.
At least I think this is what SL is saying, she can confirm or deny.
Plus, I think djekha's action wasn't justified in the first place, because I do think not trying to help the discussion along early on is minorly scummy, and didn't warrant a defense. Why not simply let me answer to it?-
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Yes, I've read that and I don't think it makes sense, see contradiction indicated in bold and italics:Goatrevolt wrote:I addressed that in this post. I think Zilla is scum. If she is scum, I think that makes you more likely to be town based on your early Dejkha pressure. Besides, I would never advocate a policy lynch over someone I strongly feel to be scum.
Also, I laughed at your freudian slip bolded above.
But no matter for now, I don't think you are scum atm but I also very much doubt Zilla is scum.Goat wrote:I don't want to policy lynch SL, or have her replaced. I think she's more likely to be town if Zilla is scum(early pressure on Dejkha wouldhave to be busing in that case),which I think is likely. I just want her to catch up and start playing the game.
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On Zilla, the bravado with which she made her entry and the fact that she has been actively pissing people off doesn't read like scum to me. Also I don't see her doing the flipflop she had going on Goat if she were scum, I think town uncertainty is more likely.
If anything Goat is the one I'd see as scum in that pair, if there is scum to be found there, because of a series of factor I'm too lazy to type now. BUT comparatively to players other than Zilla, I would still put him in low danger for now.
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Vote Beyond_Birthday
Dislike earlier analysis of the game with capslock and shit (exaggerated emotional inflexion). I don't like the quoting of huge walls to basically say 'I agree'. I don't like the 'note to self' which promptly disappeared after they've been ridiculed.I don't like the fact that he's been voting Zilla because she's beenThe last is a particularly damning tell in my book - this is day 1, I haven't seen many town who would vote for people on the ground that they've been defending them. And I don't like his push for a claim on Zilla.defendinghim.-
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Ok, the huge ass posts have to stop. There is only so much that can be said in a game of mafia, beyond which threshold it is obstinacy one way or another, and said obstinacy doesn't help any because it is impossible to read.
BB: yes I've caught up.
Zilla: a ppa after you have voted mykonian smacks of after the fact justification
Goat: basing your read of an entire game around one hypothesis is crappy and freaking lazy, i don't even understand how you can deduce the alignment of so many people just based on one person.
mykonian is not on my immediate scumlist, he doesn't look like someone who want to look like town.-
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springlullaby Mafia Scum
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Just because you wrote 10k words - with an incredibly high amount repetition - doesn't mean you aren't lazy in your scumhunting. From your last overview, all independent analysis of players had mostly town verdict. And all scum verdicts were associated to Zilla's alignment, and in a very vague fashion nonetheless. That just sucks: scumlinking is the most despicable form of scumhunting day 1, using them as more than possible indication is at best sloppy, at worst scummy.Goatrevolt wrote: You're accusing me of being lazy? Funny.
My stances aren't lazy. I've caught scum. I've worked for 10+ pages trying to get this scum lynched. There's nothing lazy about that.
You don't 'need' to do anything.What is crappy about me basing my read of an entire game around my ideas of who is scum and town? I think Zilla is overwhelming scum. That has influenced my read of the game. And? Do I somehow need to come up with a couple more hypotheses because the one I am convinced of apparently isn't enough?
Yes, and that's one step too early which means that your one step means exactly nothing.As for deducing the alignment of others, I'm working 1 step ahead. That's something to keep in mind for tomorrow. Nobody in the thread comes close to the same level of scumminess as Zilla. At this point, I'm working on two things. First of all, I'm trying to convince others to lynch Zilla. Second of all, I'm trying to determine who is scum/town assuming Zilla is scum. In the unlikely scenario that Zilla is town, I will have to scrap all that. For now, that is my take.
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Goat: I have read your case against Zilla, I think it sucks. The margin of errors in the possible meaning she could have intended with words like "hardly" and "outstanding" are such that your accusation of her lying reposes on very shaky grounds.
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Anyway, you won't see me anywhere near a Goat or Zilla wagon today, the risk of them being both town is such that it is not a chance I'm willing to take atm.
I've just seen something scummy from Panzer, brb.-
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That's definite scumtell right there.Panzerjager wrote:I'm pissed that people left Zilla of the hook. She's obviously the most scummy player in the game. I'm keeping my vote here.Also, I'm not reading all these big post.There is NO need for huge posts like this.
This is scum betting on natural townie resentment toward tedious long posts to get away with not paying attention.
Unvote Vote Panzer-
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Meh, I thought farside had replaced in. False joy.
I'm currently up to lynch BB, Panzer, for previously cited reasons.
Plus qwint, militant and subgenius for lurking.
No order of preference.
@Goat, something's puzzling me. You seem awfully nice to me this game. Saying stuff like "you know this", "spring can testify to it" when it comes to your playstyle, plus the whole not wanting to lynch me for lurking. This is in stark contrast compared to the other game we share, and I think it looks awfully like you buddying up or, more nefariously, trying to manipulate me over your meta. I'll say this here, you do seem consistent with the town meta I have seen from you (1 game), but I don't like the fact that you are bringing it up constantly in the conversation.
Now, your 'working toward a lynch' is all well and good, but who exactly are you willing to lynch beside Zilla, and why?-
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He did not express annoyance at the length of post, he said that he wouldn't read them and justified it by saying that he shouldn't be expected to.GIEFF wrote: springlullaby, do you feel that expressing annoyance at the length of posts is enough to lynch Panzer? If not, what else do you find suspicious?
I would lynch him on that alone.
My old remarks against him are still valid, but I don't much care.
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I have no order of preference and would lynch any of them at the drop of a hat. Panzer is where my vote now, it's my surest call, which doesn't mean my BB call isn't confident.Goatrevolt wrote: This again? I highly doubt you have no order of preference. Everyone has someone they would prefer to see gone (whether it's scum with a townie they want out, or town with the person they think most likely to be scum). I want to see an order of preference. Why does militant's lurking make him an equally good lynch as BB? Among all 3 lurkers, they all have defining characteristics of their play. Are you truly unable to distinguish between them? I doubt it.
As for lurkers, ting and mykonian qualify also in my book, but their pattern isn't as scummy and I think they read more town.
Not afraid of laying it on thick are you. What is it that make you think I'm so town?You are one of the people I think most likely to be town right now. I'm not trying to buddy up in order to garner your support, I simply think you are town. I don't want to lynch someone I think is town, regardless of whether or not they are lurking. I respect your play enough to want to have you come back to the game rather than replace out and us get a variable factor. The reason I've brought up my meta is Zilla kept attacking me for aspects of my play that she said makes me likely to be scum, but are actually just things I do every game. My style of defending myself, for example. The reason I noted you, is because you played in a recent game with me, and you attacked me for the exact same thing Zilla did, and can testify that it is something I do as town.
It wasn't an attempt to buddy, it was me defending myself.-
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It didn't catch my attention till then.GIEFF wrote:
But he had already said he wasn't reading posts. 4 times.springlullaby wrote:
He did not express annoyance at the length of post, he said that he wouldn't read them and justified it by saying that he shouldn't be expected to.GIEFF wrote: springlullaby, do you feel that expressing annoyance at the length of posts is enough to lynch Panzer? If not, what else do you find suspicious?
I would lynch him on that alone.
My old remarks against him are still valid, but I don't much care.
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 90#1505290
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 57#1505957
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 62#1507962
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 43#1508343
And others have already called him scummy for it.
Why did you only focus on this latest time he said he wasn't reading posts, and ignore the first four times he did it?-
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Actually you are right, upon verification, although I think you are at the lower participation side of town, it's not very just to call you a lurker. But don't think for an instant that I have 'no right' to accuse people of lurking.mykonian wrote:Did I miss something? and yes, I object to be called a lurker. I just don't want to be one, and I really try to participate in games (altough a few weeks ago I had some motivation problems), just to avoid getting called a lurker.
And then you, the person that has absolutely no right to accuse people of lurking, come here and tell me I lurk. Could you point out why? Because I absolutely don't like that label.
My list is already up.-
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springlullaby Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
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springlullaby Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3770
- Joined: January 13, 2008
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springlullaby Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3770
- Joined: January 13, 2008
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springlullaby Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3770
- Joined: January 13, 2008
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springlullaby Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3770
- Joined: January 13, 2008
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springlullaby Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3770
- Joined: January 13, 2008
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springlullaby Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3770
- Joined: January 13, 2008
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springlullaby Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3770
- Joined: January 13, 2008
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springlullaby Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
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- Posts: 3770
- Joined: January 13, 2008
You will have to explain precisely what you mean by this.Dourgrim wrote:Wow, is it just me or has this game turned decidedly unfriendly?
Is your name GIEFF to ask me that question? Why/what are you asking me in the first place? Does this question mean you think he *should* be voting voting me?spring: why should GIEFF unvote you?
Is that question serious? Of course the burden of proof is on BB, he is voting me, it's his responsibility to justify his vote.Why is the burden of proof on B_B?
Because I feel like it.Why are you at "min. effort" in this game?-
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springlullaby Mafia Scum
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springlullaby Mafia Scum
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What is that even supposed to mean?SensFan wrote:
'Nuff said.springlullaby wrote:
Is that question serious? Of course the burden of proof is on BB, he is voting me, it's his responsibility to justify his vote.Why is the burden of proof on B_B?
Because I feel like it.Why are you at "min. effort" in this game?
Unvote, Vote: SL-
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springlullaby Mafia Scum
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springlullaby Mafia Scum
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SensFan wrote:
I guess I was also dumb to hammer Zilla without expla-oh wait...springlullaby wrote:You are dumb to vote without explanation.
springlullaby wrote:Anyway, I'm at L-2. If you don't want me to claim, you unvote me.Unvote SL.
Vote: SL
1. You are saying now that your hammer wasn't accidental but you may as well be one dumb scum who though he was putting a middle wagon bussing vote.
2. And yes, that is exactly why any unjustified vote is dumb.
3. Please don't feel too special, my 'you' was a you at large.
You are still not justifying why 'that snippet' would make me scum.
GIEFF wrote:Please answer it again. I don't see where you answered it. Why did Zilla replacing dejkha warrant an unvote?
Why did you say it was scummy when B_B refused to claim, but did not mention Zilla's refusal to do so?
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 46#1510946spring wrote:On Zilla, the bravado with which she made her entry and the fact that she has been actively pissing people off doesn't read like scum to me. Also I don't see her doing the flipflop she had going on Goat if she were scum, I think town uncertainty is more likely.
On the Beyond claim thing, I forgot why I said that. I think it's me getting confused when I reiterated my reasons to vote BB. There was something to do with claim that I didn't like in Beyond.-
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springlullaby Mafia Scum
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What are you talking about. I unvoted djekha when Zilla replaced in. I did so because I thought her entrance and the way she pissed people off was town. I told Goat that I would answer him later because I didn't want to 1)influence his comportment at a time he was making a case against her 2)answer on Zilla's behalf.GIEFF wrote:I asked why you unvoted dejkha, and the reason you gave was based on behavior Zilla did after this unvote.
At the time you unvoted dejkha, why did you do it? And why didn't you answer when Goat asked you the same question back then?
Where exactly did I say that I didn't want to play?myk wrote:Is it dumb to vote for someone that admittantly doesn't want to play?
If you admittantly aren't interested enough to hunt scum, doesn't that mean that you don't need to hunt for them?
Where did I say that I didn't want to hunt scum?-
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springlullaby Mafia Scum
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springlullaby Mafia Scum
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- Posts: 3770
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