Mini 758 - Normalcy (GAME OVER)

[Plum]

So many pretty players to vote! So hard to choose!

Lovevote: Juls

- as a thank-you for replacing into the game I'm modding.

SpyreX, you have butchered the holy name of Shakespeare. However, it seems in this game EmpTyger is our good king of cats, so, SpyreX, shall you play the Benvolio to my Mercutio?

Unvote; Vote: EmpTyger

A challenge, on my life! Well, Tyger, will you pluck your sword out of his pilcher by the ears? Make haste, lest mine be about your ears ere it be out.

[Plum]

As much fun as it would be to wagon him this early... I'm actually genuinely interested in the other wagons.

Normally with "random" votes you'd see a spread of votes. We have not. 3 on me and two in quick succession on Atr. Double on Caboose and double on Emp.

Veeeryyy interesting.

So, even from page 1 I'm watching, well, all of you.

Is there anything specific you can glean yet from the first page of random votes and the fact that they don't spread as per usual? I see that this has at least started an engagement with analysis of Atronach. Still, do you think it points strongly to anything in specific in and of itself?

Plum:
I feel you might appreciate CI378.

What's that, please?

And as a nice Jewish girl, let me tell you that neither the 1490s nor the 1940s were at all pretty things.

spyrex gets townpoints. KoC does not. Carry on.

Good thing I'm ignoring your useless arbitrary points.

Any reason why you sarcastically dismiss the points as arbitrary and useless instead of, say, asking what the basis for them was?

IGMEOY: KOC

. I'll second Caboose's question, however - Lowell,, care to explain the reasoning behind your point distribution or whatever it was?

[Plum]

Plum:
Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Scum

I was going to do that . Ah, well. Pity I missed it.

i bet you could do it better. [/flirt]

[Plum]

Reading back, Plum is pinging on my scumdar.

Any reason why you sarcastically dismiss the points as arbitrary and useless instead of, say, asking what the basis for them was? IGMEOY: KOC. I'll second Caboose's question, however - Lowell,, care to explain the reasoning behind your point distribution or whatever it was?

First off, I think KoC dismissing Lowell is not a scumtell in this case. If Lowell wanted to be taken seriously, then he would've explained his attack in the first place.
Plum looks scummy here because of two things: 1) she fans the flames of Lowell's "suspicion" of KoC by calling KoC down on a non scumtell, and 2) she asks Lowell for explanation, which plays both sides of the Lowell-KoC issue.
+scumpoints for Plum

I specifically used the IGMEOY abbreviation because I thought that KOC's reaction was slightly different than I'd expect be typical - a little more sarcastic about Lowell's statements without asking if he'd share the rationale behind them. I knew that his reaction wasn't a real scumtell - it was just something different that, in this early stage, was something of which I'd take note. And then I asked, too. Just trying to either get the info out there or establish that Lowell wouldn't share the method to his madness, which would lead discussion down a different path.

On to Lowell's refusal to share the reasoning behind his statements: It seems more anti-town than anything. In general terms, you (anyone) either have information which is useful to the town immediately, in which case you should share it immediately, or note something which might be useful in the future but isn't now, in which case you make a private note of it but don't distract the town with info they can't use, or you see something which sets off something in your gut but you can't formulate into a case useful to the town, in which case you can note strong gut suspicions at the end of a case/analysis of a player.

Lowell seems to imply he has info not

yet

useful to the town. In which case the pro-town thing to do would be to not have mentioned it at all at this point.

So far I like Spyre. Not a fan of the Lowell/KoC thing.

What do you mean by "not a fan" of the thing? What do you not like about it and why?

Plum:
Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Scum

I was going to do that . Ah, well. Pity I missed it.

i bet you could do it better. [/flirt]

[Plum]

I specifically used the IGMEOY abbreviation because I thought that KOC's reaction was slightly different than I'd expect be typical - a little more sarcastic about Lowell's statements without asking if he'd share the rationale behind them. I knew that his reaction wasn't a real scumtell - it was just something different that, in this early stage, was something of which I'd take note. And then I asked, too. Just trying to either get the info out there or establish that Lowell wouldn't share the method to his madness, which would lead discussion down a different path.

If KoC's reaction wasn't scummy, why did you feel the need to call him down on it?
Why does "different" deserve an IGMEOY?

I'm indicating that I'm keeping an eye on someone who did something 'different', which sometimes, though none too often or reliably, indicates scumhood. IGMEOY is not even an officially expressed suspicion, you understand, more of an official 'your less-than-usual reaction is noted by me'.

[Plum]

Ugh. Analysis of this . . . rather pile of junk. Trying to peel apart exactly what SpyreX and Caboose and others are actually trying to

get at

is getting annoying. So, I'll reread and try to summarize for mostly my own benefit in

one sentence or less

(each)! I'll bold stuff I agree with, and underline stuff I disagree with, 'kay?

SpyreX: Caboose is being hypocritical and latching onto general sentiment re:Lowell, who has a number of players questioning him.

EmpTyger: Lowell's lack of explanation + vague implication about KoC don't make him look any good; also Caboose isn't implicated as scum by being on a wagon now at S-1 (I'll use that abbreviation for Suspicion minus-1).

Caboose:

My post re: scumpoints and townpoints =/= Lowell's, because mine was in response to RBT and Juls gushing about what they believed to be SpyreX's townieness, which I don't feel is notably strong.

Atronach: I agree with SpyreX here.

SpyreX:

Insists that Caboose's 59 was fundamentally analogous to Lowell's 36.

EmpTyger: There's no dissonance, there's no danger in putting someone at S-1, and furthermore Caboose wasn't the one to put Lowell at S-1.

SpyreX: But scum might want to latch onto a strong wagon-of-suspicion,

and its suspicious in and of itself to be on an S-1 suspicion wagon and also Lowell and Caboose's action are still fundamentally analogous and Caboose thus still acted scummy.

I really don't like Spyre's post 64. Quite frankly it seems like a bunch of BS, IMO. I don't see any point in it and he's trying to make it seem like Caboose is rushing a lynch, or something to that effect. By collecting questions and comments directed to Lowell (some suspicious, some not), he tries to make it looks like they all have the potential to turn into votes, which they do not. Some, ok maybe they do, but definitely not all, since half of them were questions.

Scenario 1:

Somebody: *random stuff*
Somebody else: *more random stuff*
Lowell: Spyrex gets townpoints, KoC doesn't

Scenario 2:

Juls: Spyrex looks town.
RBT: I like Spyrex.
Me: I don't see what people are liking about Spyrex.

There ARE differences between the two scenarios. Scenario 1 implies that KoC did something to where it was worth mentioning that he didn't get town points. Scenario 2 implies that SpyreX didn't do anything scummy, but he didn't do anything town either, like other people say he has.

So basically: SpyreX's attack is junk, and possibly scummy. Atronach seems to parrot SpyreX, which looks about as bad. EmpTyger, Caboose, Dejka (I suppose) aren't making junk attacks and look neutral/good coming out of this mess.

@ Juls: Elaborate on SpyreX and why he got your vote, please.

I really dislike the way SpyreX keeps insisting that Caboose made a preemptive crap attack on SpyreX, which does not seem to be the case.

1.) What have I done that is

scummy

? (Hint: Lots of words isn't scummy.)
2.) What are you going to get from this flip if I flip town?
3.) What are you going to get from this flip if I flip scum? (Hint: A dead scum is p nice, but I'm looking for a bit more than that).

First up, my gut doesn't like this post. But let your own guts do their own things.

1. Suspected Caboose on crap bases: That being on an S-1 wagon-of-suspicion is a scumtell (why aren't you attacking the rest of the Lowell attackers?) and that his post 59 contained the sort of preemptive crap attack on you he accused Lowell of making (it wasn't; explanation of my view here above).
2. Take a look at Juls and Atronach and Caboose, perhaps.
3. Take a look at Juls and Atronach to start. Do a reread. Drink some champagne.

Lowell's back-again post sucks for reasons I explained above (same attack on Caboose's one-liner, again as I see it not analogous to Lowell's).

SpyreX claims VT. Whoopee.

Juls says he vote was only for reactions. Honestly?

Do I see some more connections with SpyreX and Juls? I believe I do.

What I also dislike is RBT, who got asked by both myself and Dejka what he disliked about the Lowell/KoC thing and didn't respond. Hell, he's barely posted, and nothing of substance. I wouldn't mind a SpyreX lynch by any stretch of that sort of phrase, but RBT is tickling my gut and we have a few days until deadline. I say make use of 'em.

Vote: Riceballtail

FOS: Juls, Lowell, Atronach, SpyreX

Kieraen promised a post tonight. I sincerely hope he makes a good extensive one.

[Plum]

Plum:
…Including, I do *not* like your [105]. 4 days from deadline, you do a bunch of analysis, and then all of a sudden vote RBT? Because he “didn't respond” and “barely posted, and nothing of substance”. Well, Lowell’s all that worse, and you had found other reasons to suspect him too, and he’s at 2 votes and has others suspecting him. Instead, you vote RBT, who no one else is even voting, and I doubt a bandwagon will follow you when you spend most of [105] attacking Spyre, not RBT.

All very true. I don't know if my unconcious mentality, which seems to be that four days in this game is a fair amount of time . . . lends to this. I believe I made it clear that I thought SpyreX's case on Caboose was based on multiple fallacies and was scummy. It was also clear to me that SpyreX had already been put at L-1 or so and claimed VT - so theoretically he not only was scummy and worthy of getting lynched, but there was and is fairly strong support for the SpyreX wagon. Please correct me if I am wrong. Having said all that and made my suspicions of SpyreX amply clear, I wanted to see what a vote on a guy who has refused to answer a question asked by myself and another and has generally posted little at all and provoked fairly strong gut reaction as to his scumminess. The vote was, yes, partly there for pressure reasons and yes, having said this the pressure will be lessened, to a degree.

You really have Lowell to thank for why I’m not voting [SpyreX]

My vote is somewhat similar: You and I both find SpyreX fairly scummy. You're keeping your vote on Lowell because you're strongly convinced that he's scum and thus that your vote is most effective on him. I believe that a SpyreX lynch can and probably will be effected before the deadline. I wanted to make my vote effective by using it to strengthen RBT's reactions to my suspicions of him.

I will now unequivocally tell you that I'd like to make the most of these next three days or so, but as deadline approaches I'll be perfectly happy to help lynch SpyreX. Let's see what else we can get done.

I don't find one-liners, or "townpoints" or "scumpoints" scummy. I do, however, find hipocrisy scummy. Caboose looks much worse in this interaction with spy.

I also like plum's 105.

I find it funny that you liked my post so much you commented on the fact but believe Caboose to have displayed hypocrisy, as I firmly argue against that misconception in the post you referenced. Again, Lowell, out of the blue you gave SpyreX townpoints and impied that KoC didn't deserve townpoints. Caboose argued that doing that was scummy. In addition, more than one player had expressed sentiments re: liking SpyreX and/or his style of play, and Caboose commented that he didn't see anything particulary likable, gamewise, about SpyreX thus far. Different implications, and, importantly, Caboose's comment was not incongruous or nebulous and out-of-the-blue - it fit with the context and was not, to the degree that yours was, a preemptive scum attack.

Mod, could we get a votecount, pretty please with a cherry on top?

---

The 'But mom, I already had one at the top of this page!' votecount

Votecount

SpyreX (3) - Knight of Cydonia, Benmage, Caboose
Caboose (3) - SpyreX, Riceballtail, Lowell

Lowell (2) - EmpTyger, Dejka

Emptyger (1) - Kieraen
Juls (1) - Atronach
Benmage (1) - Juls
Riceballtail (1) - Plum

Not voting

:
7 to lynch

[Plum]

SpyreX, you may be right that I used somewhat over-strong words to make my point (especially 'gushing'). Nevertheless, I maintain that aside from moderate exaggeration, which everyone may feel free to edit out, the point I was trying to make stands (that there was context for Caboose's statements not present by Lowell's statements).

I'm going to

Vote:SpyreX

now because I may not have access before deadline.

Conclusion: you want to be hung… wow scumtell much?

Not necessarily. In this case unless we're all comfortable letting SpyreX live until Lylo despite his claim, we'll need to lynch him. Despite some twitches from my gut on the choice, I do disagree with him on multiple points and feel that some things he argues are false. I must go to class now, but I will say that SpyreX's call to be lynched is plausibly pro-town.

[Plum]

Er - that's a pleasant surprise, I suppose. Any reason you chose me for use of your one investigation?

I'm a bit busy at the moment, but hopefully I should have a relatively extensive post up tonight or tomorrow afternoon (EST).

[Plum]

My thoughts here in

indigo

. Not messing with the Mod's chosen color here .

RBT. Why do you so easily believe it. I'm gonna vote on you.

But you didn't.

I agree with plums arguments against you yesterday, but think you generally slipped under the radar yesterday.

Yeah, I'm pretty good at that. It's helpful to do such things as town, as they do not look to me for their suspicion.

But as town your number one priority is scumhunting. Avoiding suspicion is a secondary priority. As scum, your first priority is avoiding suspicion. And my main problem with you is that you seem to be playing from a scum mindset, not a town mindset, as evidenced by your attempts to slip under the proverbial radar instead of do much scumhunting at all.

Points for you to argue against.
[quote:"RBT"]So far I like Spyre. Not a fan of the Lowell/KoC thing.
[/unquote]

Can you clarify your meaning behind this?

It's pretty straight forward if you ask me.

It implies distrust towards KoC and Lowell. Can you make a full argument against them?

Not on page 3...

Couldn't you have explained a bit more about why you distrusted them? Also, you claimed to have answered that question yesterday. Honestly I do not see where you stuck it. Point it out, please?

I also dislike that you are selective in your suspicion. You have ALL the reason to doubt CABOOSE's claim

and we have plenty of reasons to believe the claim too.

and KoC is absolutely correct to want to discredit it within reason.

And I can't find it suspicious that he wants to discredit it so quickly?

Why do you believe Cabooses claim so easy?

I see no reason not to.

And can you post longer than five lines?

Good luck on that.

Contribute substance in your <5 line posts, then?

That said,

VOTE:Lowell

almost entirely for 158. Voting someone you agree with is awfully scummy.

Bull. Just because I take the same stance as another player on one facet of the game (like whether to believe Caboose's claim or not) does not mean I can't find another player scummy for other things. That said, was Lowell's reason for voting you adequately explained? Not really. I plan to ask him about that specifically at the bottom of this page. For example, I myself am inclined to believe the claim, just like you seem to be. That doesn't change the fact that I suspect you (that said, some factors may be inducing blindspots, and I'd like to do a reread specifically investigating this subject).

@ Lowell - explain what you didn't like about RBT's post 154? Your own posts early Day 2 look somewhat similar - so what's the difference?

Would someone like to summarize the case on Lowell (briefly, if you're so inclined)?

More later (I have conjunctivitis!).

[Plum]

EBWOP:

Vote: Riceballtail

[Plum]

Posting, posting:

RBT - I still do not like and still very much would like to lynch. I need to reread Caboose, but offhand I can think of little I found truly dubious, though will have to check up on the charge of preemptive defensiveness. In any case lynching Caboose to try to confirm me and strengthen Lowell's claim doesn't seem to have the right risk/reward ratio for me to endorse it (what with Caboose not being the scummiest player in my book by a long shot). If he's confirmed the town will likely lose the confirmed Townie (me, assuming Caboose is scum for just a sec, as the presented theory is that lynching Caboose is beneficial enough even if Caboose isn't scum) or the strengthened one-shot Tracker.

The argument re: should Caboose have claimed: One-shot Cop with his only result has to out himself to share it. Not sharing it the next Day risks losing that one piece of info he could get. Claiming regular Cop runs risks of, assuming he survives (Doc is likely to use protection on him, if there is a Doc) the town asking him for results. He claims that he was only One-shot

at that point

and scum can screw that to heck, if you get my drift.

@ Everyone: You confuse me by saying 'Lynch' when you mean NK - verb-wise, that is. Lynches are vote on during the day. NKs are kills at night, in this case, it would seem, by the Mafia.

Kieraen is bothering me A LOT. Have to run now, but a post detailing why coming ASAP.

---

The "Fayetteville, AR has a pretty good public transit system. -or- OMFG A REAL KEYBOARD" Votecount

Lowell (3) - EmpTyger, dejkha, Benmage

Riceballtail (2) - Lowell, Plum
Caboose (2) - Kieraen, Knight of Cydonia

Benmage (1) - Caboose

Not Voting (2):

Riceballtail, Atronach,

6 to lynch

[Plum]

Some problems with Kieraen's play today (I have not done a full reread of him - here I am only addressing points on his play today):

First post Day 2 he says to RBT

I also dislike that you are selective in your suspicion. You have ALL the reason to doubt CABOOSE's claim and KoC is absolutely correct to want to discredit it within reason.

But he doesn't work on discrediting or doubting it immediately and/or explicitly.

Interesting. Caboose is defended by Lowell because he has a similair powerrole.

Or in other words, One of our top suspects defends another of our top suspects.

I imagine either both are right or wrong.

Complete false dilemma. I can easily see scum Lowell, town Caboose. Scum Caboose, town Lowell seems more remote but absolutely not something we need or want to toss out the window simply on the merit of the two claims. He builds a plan out of this false dilemma to lynch Caboose to try to confirm or incriminate Lowell - a bad plan because the results won't be nearly as easy to interpret as he argues they will be. Argues we lynch Caboose for this vague info

despite not having expressed strong feelings about Caboose being scummy at all

. I see he does say Day 1 that, while not entirely confortable with Caboose, Caboose is (at the reading and interpretation which would imply the strongest suspicions of Caboose by Kieraen) simply not a top suspect, and, while not seeming extremely townie, not very scummy either. He votes Caboose here.

Then he realizes one of the drawbacks of him plan and suggests we do the 'easier' thing, and lynch RBT - the player on whom his vote had been before he voted Caboose - but does not unvote Caboose. I think he doid mean to, though, as evidenced by the fact that in the post after that he votes Caboose again.

He posts an argument in favor of his 'lynch Caboose' gambit in the next post and votes him - and it's an argument that seems stupid, especially in context of Lieraen's utter lack of case made against Caboose himself. Makes assumption that we have a Doc. Why?

He acknowledes his wishy-washyness. Looking it over here, I say that it's definitely likely that it's scum wavering here.

His argument for the gambit being beneficial rests almost entirely on the assumption that we have a Doc.

Again, as One-Shot Cop, claiming when he did was the (or, at least, a) correct play for Caboose. Claiming regular Cop would have been a lie to open to door to screwups and scum chaos.

Then

he agrees again for the second time going back against his lynch-Caboose gambit

and

says that we can probably trust the claim. I don't see where this flip-flopping is coming from - except, quite possibly, floundering scum.

It's possible that Kieraen's just town playing erratically, but the evidence makes him look scummy.

Unvote; Vote: Kieraen

---

The "I don't understand the new RE5 commercial...it seems to suggest that if you play RE5, you will kill yourself...?" Votecount

Lowell (3) - dejkha, Benmage, Atronach

Caboose (2) - Kieraen, Knight of Cydonia

Riceballtail (1) - Lowell
Benmage (1) - Caboose
Dejkha (1) - EmpTyger
Kieraen (1) - Plum

Not Voting (1):

Riceballtail

6 to lynch

[Plum]

The VT claim at L-3 hurts Kieraen's case more than it helps. Meta defense is also troublesome. Specific meta defense (e.g., a player saying 'It's my custom to random vote with dice always, regardless of my alignment, as you can see from these handy links) is acceptable, in my mind. Vague 'I always look scummy, so you shouldn't attack me for looking scummy!', however, is useless. Thinking alud is normal, stupid WIFOM defenses are always a red flag, but by now it's a signal we may have gone off the deep end here, if you get my drift.

Re: Lowell forgetting his role: I don't like it much myself, but, especially with a more intriguing case (Kieraen) and a strong gut suspect who hasn't contributed too much (RBT) and knowing that sometimes powerroles make stupid mistakes (Atronach remembers the game where someone claimed his limited JOAT role gave him a one-shot Tracker option which, the next day, he told us was a mistake on his part and actually a

Watcher

power . . . meh. I'll reserve judgment for a day.

[Plum]

The VT claim at L-3 hurts Kieraen's case more than it helps.

What the
Godfather possibility slightly increased.

You didn't find the premature VT claim at least questionable?

[Plum]

I think Plum's case is quite accurate. And I don't know of any kind of gambit that you could be talking about would be equated to your play. I also like the idea of Benmage being the third scum. Shall we finish them off today?

This post, the one above. I specifically stated, in addition to what plum had said, that him calling something a gambit seems far to suspicious to let it slide. He also probably moved his vote to me in that post in order to make this look like it was an OMGUS, with the intent of trying to get me lynched instead.

Wait, what? The last bit - are you trying to say that you think he moved his vote to you before you voted him so you would look like you were OMGUSing when you voted him after he voted you? You don't seem to specifically say 'calling it a gambit = scummy', but whatever.

[Plum]

The VT claim at L-3 hurts Kieraen's case more than it helps.

What the
Godfather possibility slightly increased.

You didn't find the premature VT claim at least questionable?

No, especially with the approaching deadline.

I can see how the VT claim wouldn't convince anyone of his innocence, but it shouldn't be used to condemn him. That just looks like scum trying to get a mislynch.

The prematurity of the claim was what bothered me, and in your view it wasn't really premature. Perhaps I have a different gut reaction to how long we have until deadline than you; maybe I'm not feeling the pressure soon enough, or at any rate as soon as you.

[Plum]

On the off chance we haven't hit deadline:

Unvote; Vote: RBT

. Not especially inclined to believe the claim, and my number 2 suspect, and as opposed to no-Lynch, RBT lynch looks good.

There's still 4 others able to hammer with KoC's refusal...i guess by KoC's move he is also declaring that he would prefer to see a no lynch today. While I am sometimes somewhat favorable of a no lynch occasionally.(better to only have one innocent killed at night than one during the day and one at night) PlusI feel it gives our cop role more nights to investigate. Unfortunately I have become less favorable of that position in this game where it appears many actions are simply 'one-shot' moves and we may not have more investigators.

So in a sense this no lynch move by KoC is in actuality allowing scum a free night.

We have no reason to believe we have a regular Cop role, and actually have multiple reasons to believe it's not the case. The no-Lynch, unfortunately, does give the scum a free shot, and KoC was absolutely in the wrong in doing what he did, and would be in almost all cases (unless, for example, he'd expressed strong belief that RBT was town. All we got from him was

I'm not seeing an RBT lynch as optimal at this point.

Yeah, well, for allowing a no-Lynch to occur on basis of what KoC indicated doesn't cut it for me.

HOS: Knight of Cydonia

Not, unfortunately, that it'll make any difference (today, anyway).

[Plum]

I don't want a no-lynch, and FoS on those who imply that I do. I am stating clearly who I want lynched.

You had two options:

1) Ensure a no-Lynch is effected by not voting RBT

2) Voting RBT for the Lynch.

You chose option 1, the anti-Town, scummy-seeming choice, given the relative lack of strength of your reasons for doing so. Perhaps you don't want a no-Lynch, technically. If you don't like that phrasing, I can deal, because the statement that you actively prefered a no-lynch over an RBT Lynch is clearly true. And, as I argued, scummy. It doesn't matter so much who you want lynched (hey, I'd prefer a Kieraen lynch over one on RBT, too), but that you chose a no-lynch over an RBT lynch despite the fact that your reasons for doing so weren't strong.