Open 159 - Lovers Mafia - Game over before 823

[Korts]

I'm firm.

[Korts]

And bringing in this kind of out-of game shiv doesn't seem right to me.

Why not? Because you got caught in it?

How can you confuse 10 minutes with 3 hours?

Also, is your accusation of SpyreX serious?

[Korts]

Can we start? I really wanna vote camn.

Kmd, what happened to this? You apparently had similar reasons as Incog for voting camn, yet now that you had the chance, you voted SpyreX, and immediately tied him to Haylen--without presenting anything resembling reasoning.

Gotcha. What if I quoted one and said it was mine though? Would that be modkillable? If not, why? If so, why?

Not modkillable. In an open game, quoting a PM is basically the same as claiming the name of that role. And claiming is definitely a legitimate action.

[Korts]

Ether was scum when she tried that confirmation-timing attack on town-Incog in Mini 771.
It was a scum crap-case then, Incog KNEW that it was crap then, and thus it must be crap now.
In fact, his play here is TOTALLY reminding me of Ether in 771.. even before he brought it up....

I thought for a moment that your logic here is a joke, but it doesn't seem so on a reread. "Ether-scum presented so and so case, therefore anyone presenting so and so case is scum" is a laughable excuse for logic. Just because scum used a particular kind of logic doesn't mean that particular kind of logic is scummy.

Incog's case is valid insofar as you posted on-site around the time the thread was opened, and you confirmed in-thread only 3 hours later. Whether or not this is a scumtell is a different argument, but you can't conclusively prove that you opened your PM only at the time of your confirmation, so the existence of Incog's case is justified.

Asking you why you delayed was totally a joke!
At that time I wasn't even aware that I had delayed... cuz to ME, I opened the PM and went straight to confirm... so I figured you couldn't have been THAT much faster than me! I never looked at the times at all!
It like when someone says something.. and I immediately say the same thing about their mom.

Kmd, Incog: is this desperate reaction in character with camn?

Spy, as scum, may have realized that, but asked anyway to look better.

Since when are you a psychic? I think SpyreX's train of thought was legit--he saw an exploitable ruleset, so he pointed out how it could favor town.

To be quite honest I don't think Kmd's evidence to support his reads of Incog/camn/me are convincing, since I definitely have a different read of my own play as compared to my play in True Love. I'm getting the feeling he's using his gut as an excuse not to make real efforts at scumhunting. Not to mention me bein uncomfortable with him going for town reads instead of scum reads--process of elimination is a bad way to hunt when the people you're eliminating from your list of suspects are not confirmed town by any mechanic.

vote: Kmd4390

ALSO CAN YOU PLEASE STOP THE QUOTE WARS. BEFORE IT GETS OUT OF HAND. SUMMARIZE PLEASE. YOU ARE NOT MAKING ANY GRAND ARGUMENT BY QUOTING EVERY SENTENCE SEPERATELY.

I will not read post 63 and 64. Please, each of you, give a summary of the relevant points in each.

[Korts]

Also, if I'm understanding your Kmd case correctly, you're suggesting that you don't think town-hunting as opposed to scum-hunting is a legitimate pro-town tactic? Or do you think his town reads don't look genuine?

Town-hunting is legit, just not really effective in my opinion. Process of elimination shouldn't be applied when uncertainty is involved.

I don't think his town read of me, in particular, is genuine. He's comparing my early game play here to another game where in my opinion I opened completely differently. His read of you is not hard to fake, either, since all he said was that you were "genuine and helpful", and his read of camn is entirely based on camntown-meta, even though you in contrast say that this is camn meta with no stress on alignment.

Also, the fact that he commits to town reads on three of six players this early would give him much leeway to maneuver with his further reads--since it is obviously not completely serious, nor final. In fact, to go back to town hunting vs. scum hunting, early game town hunting might be more beneficial for scum, since they don't have to commit to suspicion, only lack thereof--and this will be less evidence against them.

[Korts]

Sorry about my sudden lack of activity, I've got a health exam tomorrow, I've been spending a lot of my time studying. Expect me to catch up after tomorrow.

[Korts]

gonna catch up sometime today

[Korts]

Had chores today, will find time tomorrow.

[Korts]

I can definitely see Haylen/SpyreX based on 77. Has she elaborated on the meta-read of SpyreX? She claims to have found out "loads" but all I can find is a small reference to Polygamist.

Kmd and Haylen, note that responding to points based on number without quoting is even worse than quote wars--I have to go back for each response to see the precendents. Please make clear references to the history, not just "yes" or "no". Since you know what you're talking about, presumably, this would just mean you typing another full sentence, while if you don't, I have to scroll up and down frantically and switch between windows if I want to have even a cursory idea of what you are talking about.

I'm up to 79 by SpyreX and I've already lost my will to live. This game is a tough read after a whole day of chores and lethargy. For now, I'm done.

[Korts]

As a quick skim seems to show camn pressuring the easy target (i.e. me, having fallen behind) I probably should address her points.

1) I think townhunting is TOTALLY legit.
2) Who takes classes in the summer?
3) WHAT quote wars?? this is a 6-person game!!
4) Ketchup.

I never doubted the legitimacy of townhunting, just the effectiveness--reading what I post would help you a lot. 2: it's a first aid course for my driving license. 3: the quote wars between Haylen and Kmd, do you even read the thread?

Laughable.

[Korts]

No, I'd rather you don't spam the thread with irrelevant stuff. If there is something about SpyreX's meta that indicates a specific alignment-tell in this game, shoot, otherwise, there's no point.

[Korts]

In general, town clearing town is a scary situation for scum. In THIS SETUP, it is absolutely dreadful.

If that's the case, why do you attack Haylen with this and not me? It's me who's trying to discredit townhunting as an effective method of playing.

Haylen, I see you elaborating on your meta-read of SpyreX in post 80, but I don't see how any of it is particularly relevant, other than antagonizing SpyreX without bringing any alignment-tells into the picture. In other news: self-vote is silly and pointless. Especially considering the fact that you were baiting for a scumhammer, but changed your vote to Kmd after only Incog had the chance to hammer. If Incog convinced you of your self-vote's silliness, a short explanation would not have been amiss.

Incog coming in as the mediator doesn't make me feel comfortable, I seem to recall him being more confrontational in vollkan's mini.

Kmd: thanks for nipping the uh-huh/nuh-uh argument in the bud, more or less. Slight pro-town points there for not muddying up the thread.

The players left after the vote (Camn, Icog, Korts) would, by nature be 1 scum and 2 town. The scum has the most vested interest to come to their defense - and this move comes in with built in defenses as you, yourself, have shown. The town in that grouping have another major question: at this point am I confident enough that Haylen is scum to hammer? If they are right, then game set match. However, if they are wrong they KNOW they are setting themselves up for a mislynch the next day for quickhammering town and pushing the game extremely quickly to lylo.

Are you implying that if Haylen's scum, Incog is her partner? Please make clear statements instead of going with implicit assumptions.

I'm up to Haylen's "SpyreX" post and getting mentally exhausted. I'll have another post up later this evening.

[Korts]

Korts, I'm assuming your Haylen/SpyreX partner theory has been dropped considering how fervently SpyreX has been attacking her?

Not necessarily completely dropped, simply less likely. I can imagine scum distancing and trying to be convincing about it, even though bussing is impossible in this setup.

Also, can you point to where specifically you felt I was acting as a mediator?

Post 85. You seem to do more to discredit cases than make them.

I'd like camn to come back and reply to my accusation that she's fishing for an easy wagon in voting me.

[Korts]

I

am

in the game, and you are.

[Korts]

You are fishing for support, that is.

[Korts]

Good point, camn. Thanks for pointing out that Kmd is at L-1, I hadn't noticed.

unvote

And no, you never explicitly solicited for support, you just fished for it. Note the bigger font that your vote is in, and the additional point of "ketchup" with which you padded your case. It's not much at all, but to a quick skimmer, it would look like your case was bigger and carried more weight than it actually does.

[Korts]

Looking at your case again, I notice that one of your three actual points is doubt over expressed Meatworld issues, which cannot be proven right or wrong; one about percieved theory difference, which is not even close to being a scumtell; and one about me claiming that there had been a quote war between Kmd and Haylen--which you can't deny if you look at posts 62-64 for instance. So you didn't pad your case with a single point, you made a case up out of thin air. Your justification is nil, yet you still list four points--what is that if not fishing for attention?

[Korts]

The fact that you don't have a case shouldn't mean that you make one out of non-alignment tells.

[Korts]

Because if you're town, you should be scumhunting, and not fishing for support. Which brings me back to my original point.

[Korts]

So, why aren't you scumhunting?

I am. Oh right, I forgot.

vote: camn

[Korts]

1stly, You AREN'T... BUT
2nd, I personally don't consider that much of a tell. However.. apparently
3rd.. YOU DO, so you seem internally inconsistent to me. Which i DO consider a tell. but
4th.. You still avoid the topic of KMD. Funny.

1/2/3rdly, there is no internal inconsistency. I say this and you say that is not "internal". I do consider using a terrible null case scummy.

4thly, what of Kmd? My vote served its purpose, and now that I found something that is not an almost-nulltell I feel much more comfortable voting you.

-Korts needed pressure.
-Korts responded to the pressure in an unsatisfactory way.

Why did I need pressure? I was catching up, and the fact that I eventually did had nothing at all to do with pressure. I guess your "Korts needed pressure" might be translated thusly: "Korts wasn't around to defend himself, so why the hell not try to push a lynch through before he came back?"

As for unsatisfactory response, I guess in a way you could say it's unsatisfactory that I won't let myself be lynched, and find you scummy for the so-called case you tried to push.

PS. This is a 6-person game, guys. . .and among friends!
There should be no "quick skimming".

lolza. Don't mix what should be and what is, please. This is not theory, this is practice.

[Korts]

4thly, what of Kmd? My vote served its purpose, and now that I found something that is not an almost-nulltell I feel much more comfortable voting you..

Am I correct in thinking that this implies your initial vote on KMD was for an "almost-nulltell"?

I pretty much say just that, so sure.

[Korts]

Do you know the meaning of "almost"? If you do, you have your answer already.

[Korts]

So really.. you are saying that the difference between your vote on KMD, and my vote on you is the difference between a Null-case and an ALMOST null case?

Just trying to see where you are at, you understand.

That, and the fact that my case on Kmd was an early discussion starter, while yours seemed more serious.

This strikes me as odd. Your focused reread seemed to target a bit on me, but you somehow happened to miss the area of the thread where I decided to place Kmd at L-1? It's not like my vote was buried in a text-wall or anything like that, either. Also, what's problematic about keeping someone at L-1 in a Lover game like this?

I saw your vote, I just didn't realize it put Kmd at L-1. I don't see anything in particular that would indicate Kmd as scum, at best only camn's distraction of the Kmd wagon, and even that only by association, which makes it a very weak tell. My initial vote on Kmd was only in lieu of any stronger case to be pushed.

camn: it

was

shockingly quickly moving just a little while ago, and I had to skim when I didn't have the willpower to go through every minute detail. I may be just inherently lazier than you, but the fact that my attention span is short doesn't mean I should be policy lynched. That is just stupid. You haven't addressed my point, which is that what should be and what is are two different things, and people skim even if they shouldn't. This is no alignment tell, either.

[Korts]

I will be V/LA from Aug 10th to ~17th, don't expect me to post during that time.

[Korts]

Haylen, that is bullshit if I may say so myself. Associative scumtells are asymmetrical--the player doing the buddying up is far more scummy for it than the one being buddied up to. Your argument fails.

[Korts]

Korts, what is your opinion of Haylen? I can't tell from reading you in ISO and using Ctrl+F to search "Haylen".

Now that you make me think of it, pretty much the same as camn. She uses terrible logic, and construes nulltells as scumtells.

[Korts]

I don't think Haylen is town. I haven't decided on her alignment. Right now I'm considering a camn/Incog or a camn/Haylen scumteam.

What do you mean, not surprising considering the setup?

[Korts]

I'm sorry about my recent absence, I'll catch up shortly.

In other news, my vacation plans have changed and I will not be V/LA between aforementioned dates. I may or may not be V/LA between 26 and 29, I will post information when i have it.

[Korts]

unvote

I still hold that camn's logic is bullshit, and whether or not she claims to "believe" in tells, ultimately the points she brings are supposed to be tells of alignment either way, because if they aren't, they're of no use to scumhunting.

SpyreX makes a reasonable case for Haylen feigning incompetency. I agree, having interacted with Haylen extensively, that she has better abilities than she wants us to believe. For whatever reason, she seems to be hiding behind her join date.

The 'Appealing to Authority' as you so nicely put it, is actually something my History teacher taught me at college on how to form arguments, and I think I would rather listen to somebody who has a PhD in that sort of thing rather than you. It is not an attempt at distancing from a mislynch, at all.

Uh, Haylen, that's stupid. The guy may have a PhD, but he doesn't play mafia, as far as I know. In this game we look for people trying to hide behind others' words, and you do exactly that, laying the blame for the content and structure of your arguments on out-of-game influences.

If you want to play properly, stop being so absurdly stubborn and accept that there are some people who know theory better than you. Appeal to authority is a classic scumtell full stop. Learn to think and decide for yourself.

Yeah, I don't agree with a bunch of stuff she's said, but I think she's reacting to pressure the way town would.

I am interested in a Korts lynch.
Also.. I agree with the above statement.

lulwut? You've been constantly grilling her. If you think she's reacting in a pro-town fashion, why do you keep at it?

I'm amused by camn committing a similar thing as I did with my Kmd vote. And I see her point about it being suspicious now.

Incog makes very valid points against camn.

re: your 247 reply to Incog's second question, you haven't addressed why you originally agree with Incog. Are you now claiming that you didn't see Haylen's responses as townly, after all?

re: your reply to Incog's first question in 247: this comment is pretty suspicious. Are you admitting to being lynch happy? If you expect Incog/me to be scum, why do you want

Haylen

lynched?

vote: camn

for the record, I think Haylen is town and just sloppy at theory. Haylen: holding back is bad play. You shouldn't downplay your abilities; holding your cards close to your chest doesn't refer to showing your abilities, it refers to showing your information.

[Korts]

Really? what makes you say that?

Scumchat theory debates, mostly, and your attitude.

And my teacher may not play mafia but she taught me how to form arguments, which are needed in mafia. Also, I thought the original problem was that I was using Tar as an example, he's a mafia player so why am I not allowed to use his ideas to help me form arguments?

Your teachers taught you how to use arguments in a rational environment. In this game, though, people have incentive to suspect and lynch each other for the smallest of tells, therefore you need a different approach than in a healthy RL debate.

You may use Tar's ideas, but don't hide behind his name when people don't agree with you. Use only ideas that you understand well enough to defend against attacks, and use only ideas that you

yourself

believe to be valid. Don't say things just because well-established players have said them before you.

b) If I am WRONG about Haylen, I would love for one of you guys to do something exceedingly scummy, expose your true nature to us all...so that we would win.... obv. I can afford to be wrong if it means a town win!

But since you suspect Haylen enough to have her lynched, why would hammering her be "something exceedingly scummy" in your eyes? Does Haylentown flipping town validate the otherwise worthless point against the hammering player?

No, I do.. but it is a gradient. They aren't quite town ENOUGH.
Plus.. like when I said "Korts needed pressure" earlier... Haylen needs pressure. EVERYONE needs pressure at some point so we can gain information.
I think that goes to something of my underlying D-1 philosophy.
-Im not good at D1.
-I don't make good cases
-I rarely find scum.
I use Day 1 to build a lot of info on a lot of players, so that I can be more effective later on.
Can you show me the scum-motivation behind playing this way?

It's not the overall play that has scum motivation, camn. Don't misrepresent the argument. The point was that you quoted Incog saying that Haylen's responses showed that she is town, and you said that you agreed with the sentiment. Then you went on to attack her again and again and again. The inconsistency is glaring, yet all you explain it with is that you only meant "more town than before". Why didn't you say so when quoting Incog? You quoted someone outright saying that Haylen is town, and you explicitly said that you agree full stop. That's all there is to it.

[Korts]

I am not skimming, camn. I read and interpret. You're right on your first point, Incog didn't call Haylen town, granted--he called her town in other posts. I probably confused the quote with other, clearer statements of alignment.

I think it is clear that if Incog totally changed his tune and unexpectedly hammered.. that would be scummy, don't you? SO, to avoid your misrep.. it was the "concocting a case against Haylen" that I was particularly hoping to see. THAT would be the scummy part.

Now you talk exclusively of Incog, when earlier you appeared to say that you hoped Incog

or I

would hammer. Would it be scummy if I made a plausible case against Haylen and hammered? Or were you specifically fishing for a hammer from Incog? (i hate the fact that "you" can be plural and singular as well. Your original post is 247, replying to Incog. Please clarify.)

[Korts]

EBWOP: hit submit instead of preview

PS.. why did Korts unvot ME, then re-vote ME in post 250?

Ehh, senility mostly. I unvoted because I had nothing more than a bad gut feeling; when I revoted you, I only remembered that I had unvoted, not the who of it, nor did I particularly care to think or look, since I had unvoted and it had little relevance.

Haylen 255 makes a fair point.

[Korts]

Had too many distractions today, will post tomorrow.

[Korts]

Actually, going through the camn/Haylen exchange again, Haylen's points against camn are rarely even close to valid--in particular, her accusation that camn is bringing up meta as defense (255) and her accusation that camn 258 managed to accuse everyone of being scum are bullshit on closer examination.

SpyreX also makes a convincing case for Haylenscum in 263, even though he concludes that I'm her partner... Haylen's replies are bad, and SpyreX proves pretty much all of Haylen's defense worthless.

At that time that is all I could say. You see, Spyrex, unfortunately when you are sharing a laptop with another person and that other person wants to use the laptop, you may find yourself in the situation where you can't answer a post fully. Find out facts before you criticise, kthanx.

BULLshit. You never even made a reference to any such circumstances in your originally referenced post--not even a "more later" type comment. What should have tipped off SpyreX exactly that that wasn't your full response?

2) It is true. Nobody can make up P.E.E, other synonyms for it are P.E.G.E.X. which means exactly the same thing. I don't plan on looking back on Tar because I know I'm right, and I was using his standard tells to support my idea. Is it not necessary to reference where you have gotton your information?

Look, Haylen, put your fucking ego aside for a moment and believe me when I say that this method of argument is not appropriate for a mafia game--it will be invariably called appeal to authority. Just, you know, believe us when we all say this.

unvote, vote: Haylen

Assuming Haylenscum, I'd guess Incogscum.

I'd be fine with lynching Korts. I wouldn't follow with lynching myself (obviously) or Camn the next day though.

Ugh. Failing Haylenscum, a Kmd/camn partnership is more than plausible. Blatant chainsaw defense here.

camn: re your question in 279, I wouldn't mind lynching you at this point in time at all, you're pretty much head to head with Haylen for first place on my scumlist.

That was not a snipe. I was unable to write more at that time for personal reasons, I don't feel the need to explain to you. You're walking a line there, I am warning you nicely not to continue.

lulz. I note that you're threatening SpyreX for pushing a completely valid point. He never asked your reasons for posting in a short sentence, it was the content of your post he attacked. Nice misrep of the argument.

[Korts]

Korts, kindly explain to me why my arguements against camn are bullcrap. I think they're perfectly valid.

camn explains your accusation of her meta usage in defense quite well; as for camn having managed to accuse everyone of being scum, it's largely invalid, since all she did was list multiple theories. She never said that everyone is simultaneously scum; and I don't see why having multiple theories would be any kind of scumtell.

Well, If you think my defense is worthless why dont you lynch me and lynch either kmd or camn on Day Two? It's what I'd do if i thought somebodies defense was worthless. But I beg to differ on your opinions to my defence. You are arguing a subjective point.

I voted you, how the flipping fuck is that not an effort to lynch you?

I did not have time to write anything else in that specific post. And I really don't think you're the right person to judge my posts when I dont have time, due to you not having time to post all week despite having time to be on scumchat.

For fuck's sake! I didn't judge your posts, I said that your accusation of SpyreX was not valid, since even if you did post under the circumstances that you cite (which I have no reason not to believe) there was nothing to imply said circumstances to SpyreX in the referenced post.

And I never claimed not to have time to post all week (not to mention that I have never gone a week without posting), I'm admittedly lazy and a frequent procrastinator.

FYI I never lie about theory, regardless of alignment. I can tell this to you after the game again, but your method of arguing is not applicable to a mafia environment full stop.

As for why I hammered you and not camn? camn was not at L-1, and I'm ca. 90% sure that one of the two of you is scum.

Also, Korts. I think you are very rude. Spyrex, although you are a git. I am quite fond of you for being a git.

I am trying to help. Fuck me for not pampering your naive ass.

[Korts]

A rare case of the wiki being absolutely correct:

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... _Authority

[Korts]

I agree with SpyreX, Incogscum would've only made sense paired with Haylen--with the flip, Incog is pretty much confirmed town.

So let's go down the list with the assumption that I'm town.

SpyreX/Kmd
Kmd/camn
camn/SpyreX

These three are the possibilities.

My top pairing would be Kmd/camn, for the previously mentioned chainsaw defense as well as the following post:

I think camn and Kmd are scum. Discuss.

You are wrong about me... and probably wrong about KMD.

Add to this the fact that basically any mention of each other they have is positive, although I don't seem to remember a lot of interaction at all between the two.

SpyreX/Kmd--plausible, considering that SpyreX was only on Kmd's back during the early game, and even then never really hitting him hard, and switched pretty soon to grilling Haylen; Kmd was also very strongly against Spy at the beginning, but his read gradually changed from sure scum to null to townie. And then, for the last 12 of Kmd's 35 posts total, there is no mention at all of SpyreX. Kmd's strong initial attack and SpyreX's mediocre application of pressure on Kmd might be construed as sloppy early game scum antics designed for distancing. This pairing is a bit less likely since SpyreX's top pair included Kmd--although he might be scheming to get camntown lynched in an effort at tying her to Kmdscum, it would be a risky gambit.

SpyreX/camn--ehh. SpyreX has been keeping mentions of camn low-key in most of his posts, aiming minor questions at her and never suspecting her first and foremost. camn's initial quoting of SpyreX's hypothetical role PM might have been an in-your-face scum act of rebellion; she also mentions SpyreX rarely, having marked him obvtown fairly early on in the game. The thing is, I don't see camnscum being so blatant in clearing his scumpartner; and there's the fact again that SpyreX has camn in his top pairing.

So:

FoS: Kmd/camn

[Korts]

The thing that scares me is that Kmd is more willing to give SpyreX confirmed status than Incog--gut over logical POE is a scary choice. Plus points for Kmd/SpyreX there.

Also the fact that he's basically fishing for the wagon with the most support so blatantly that I shouldn't even call it fishing.

[Korts]

I am on limited access for today and possibly tomorrow, my laptop is in repair.

[Korts]

Laptop was fixed faster than expected.

What's your point, camn? That I can't reconsider my stance upon a reread if I'm town? Also, if I intended to hammer Haylen all this time, why did I initially dismiss her as sloppy town?

And where the hell does "intent to lynch" imply that I wasn't aware I'd hammered? I was fully aware of the importance of my vote, I was simply expressing frustration at Haylen having the audacity to ask me why I don't lynch her

when I JUST DID

.

It's a bit confusing that both Kmd and camn consider SpyreX more probable town than Incog--considering how obvious Incog's townliness is, I can't imagine why; also, this makes me reconsider the validity of my previous Kmd/SpyreX pair based on Kmd's favouring SpyreX against Incog--based on that logic, camn would have to be scum too.

I can see camn and Kmd thinking that SpyreX would be the ideal target for buddying up, and I see the reason in that--going for the pseudo-confirmed would be a) far too obvious, and b) ineffective considering that every player would look at Incog as >90% town.

Also, I am town. Lynching me = scum win.

Good to know, cause you know, you're the only one whose credibility I have no doubt in.

[Korts]

The real question is.. why didn't you pressure her a little before hammering? You must admit it kind of came out of nowhere.

Admittedly it was a little sudden, but Haylen was pressured enough and had more than enough against her. At that point any pressure would've been recycled, there wasn't really any new material against Haylen.

[qutoe="camn"]Why didn't you say that at the time then? [/quote]

Eh. I wasn't aiming for a good punchline, I was frustrated. My reply was initially even longer and more redundant than what I eventually posted, and I didn't trim it down perfectly. And like I said, I was perfectly aware that I was hammering. If there is anything in my post that implies otherwise, I'd like direct quotes and a dissection of nuances to demonstrate this please.

Kmd: very nicely rushed.

camn: what is your opinion of Kmd in light of his most recent post?

[Korts]

Kmd's been opportunistic, lazy, lurkish and more willing to piggyback on other players' opinions than articulate his own. I consider Kmd to be a capable player who knows that these things hurt town. Therefore,

vote: Kmd

That is all.

[Korts]

Yep.

High five, SpyreX.

[Korts]

http://quicktopic.com/43/H/9JyRGpSC4YC

Mafia QT.

Thanks for the game, I thought it was a pretty even match We got lucky that Kmd suddenly lost interest and threw good play to the wind, and Haylen was a very tempting mislynch from the start. Before Kmd started his Day 2 silliness I was really afraid I'd have to battle camn to get her lynched--but all's well that ends well.

[Korts]

WTF? When did I ever lose interest?

Incog, gut. I'm a gut player, mostly.

I assume that's what caused your apparent apathy and eagerness to vote on Day 2.

[Korts]

It wasn't apathy. It was confidence in my suspicion on you.

Like I said, it

looked

like apathy. You didn't even bother to argue.

[Korts]

Also...pampered naive ass?

Naive ass, yes. Pampered, no. I said, quote: "fuck me for not pampering your naive ass"; this is in reference to you calling me rude. I may be brash, but whatever I said regarding theory is what I honestly think--you accusing me of lying about theory as scum is offensive to me. I take pride in lying as little as possible, and I consider any claims to the contrary to be an attack at my integrity.

So yes. Fuck me for not pampering your naive ass with niceties.

[Korts]

So now that the game is over and I have no reason to lie, do you believe me when I say that what you were doing, waving Tarhalindur's name around, was cold hard Appeal to Authority? You better >:(

[Korts]

So now that the game is over and I have no reason to lie, do you believe me when I say that what you were doing, waving Tarhalindur's name around, was cold hard Appeal to Authority? You better >:(

I think it was just a case of a newer player hearing something from an experienced player and treating it as truth. Isn't AtA more trying to pass it off as truth rather than actually believing it?

She showed no independent thought in the argument, just presented "this is a scumtell, that's what Tarhalindur says". Regardless of her actual understanding of the point being made, she chose to rely on an authority figure's name and not her own thought process.

[Korts]

To be fair on Haylen, I don't recall thoroughly reading the Tarhalindur point in question--I just went with the scum mentality, seeing someone raise a point and jumping on the wagon to hound you for it as long as I can keep it up without suspicion, preferably to a lynch.

And yes, Haylen, bringing out-of-game alignment-free influences into the game muddies up the waters and shifts accountability. If you want to sound genuine, use whatever idea you wish, as long as you understand its mechanics well enough to defend it, and reference the author only when necessary. (Naturally this applies to a mafia environment only--in an academic environment,

always

give credit where it is due.)

[Korts]

(Naturally this applies to a mafia environment only--in an academic environment, always give credit where it is due.)

Now I get it!...not really sure why it only works here though...

Uh, I just told you. The environment is completely different--in a mafia game, you have every reason to distrust players and you only give credit for original attempts at catching scum, and not for efforts at imitating the same.

In contrast, in an academic environment lots of high profile people's egos crave stroking, and if you want to get ahead you have to give credit even where it is hardly due and redundant. You also need a lot of filler in many of your essays, and "Appeal to Authority" takes up considerable space if done right.