Open 163 (Jungle Republic)- Game Over before 835

[ThAdmiral]

Is it worth reading the first 4 pages or is it just random stuff so far?

[ThAdmiral]

Just letting you guys know I have limited access as the internet has gone down at my place. Don't replace me as hopefully it will be up again soon and I will catch up then.

[ThAdmiral]

Still here. Getting a new modem tomorrow so I should be able to post about once a day from then on.

[ThAdmiral]

Alright, internet is back up so I will now read and then actually start playing this game!

[ThAdmiral]

I promise I will post tonight. I'm busy today but I am catching up slowly.

[ThAdmiral]

Thadmiral's super quick read through!

Page 1: discussion of mastin and his large posts. Not much here.
Page 2: discussion of grammar. Not much here either.
Page 3: the same 3 or 4 people keep arguing with each other. No real suspicious activity.
Page 4: more people arrive. Game is starting to warm up.
Page 5: I think this is the first really good post of the game:

I put a vote on a guy who hopped on a bandwagon on the first page, and all of a sudden I'm scum.

Nobody said you were scum. Guilty conscience?
While I do like my DTM vote, I believe this one will serve me better:

Unvote. Vote: Toro.

IGMEOY: DTM

DTMaster tries to be very careful in what he is saying but just comes across as cautious scum.
Page 6: people discuss the cases on offer. Not much is resolved.
Page 7: Zazier arrives. Posts 21 times in a row. Usual behaviour.
Page 8: Saberwolf responds to Zazier. Posts 8 times in a row (is it zazier in disguise?). Omgus votes zazier.
Page 9: "why isn't nik on zazi's list?". That is about all.
Page 10: Zazi posts.
Page 11: Zazi continues posting. Saberwolf responds but mainly attacks Zazier's playstyle.

TO BE CONTINUED...

[ThAdmiral]

@Admiral

Can you show this?

DTMaster tries to be very careful in what he is saying but just comes across as cautious scum.

As it stands it's an accusation without any refrence.. so I don't know what you are talking about here.

Most of your posts on page 5 are careful rewordings of your interpretations/stances at the time. I felt to me like it wasn't a big deal, and that no one was really pressuring you, but you still seemed very intent/worried about people misunderstanding you.
Perhaps not necessarily cautious scum, but somewhat nervy behavior.

And Admiral do you currently have list of who you find most suspicious so far? I'm just curious to see.

I'll post them at the end of my read through summary.

At page 11 it is saberwolf.

Super quick summary continued

Page 12: nikanor makes a good point about saberwolf appealing to emotion.
Scott Brosius prefers to lurker vote, and his 279 is wishy washy:

we are more likely to hit an anti-town member by going after a lurker.

Do you think we should lynch saber today or some random lurker?

Usually I would go for SW since I don't like lynching lurkers D1 since there is so little information. But in this setup where 5/12 players are anti-town roles, I don't mind it as much. I don't like how SW has been so defensive toward zazier, but I don't want to place a vote to put him at L-1 when half of the players are lurking and anti-town players can swoop in and lynch him if he is town.

I don't like saber's appeals to emotion that you mentioned. However, I have seen this reaction from town and scum when at L-2 or L-1. It could be the obvious scum attempting to con his way out of being lynched, or it could be a townie who just wants to continue playing the game and not be lynched D1.

I think it's a bit strange to start lining up lynches when he's at L-2. Normally, I wouldn't expect scum to do that, but with 2 anti-town groups, it's a little more reasonable I think.

Saberwolf's 283 actually seems sort of genuine.
Saberwolf also puts a lot of work in to 290, although his statements on who may or may not be in factions together could be potentially distracting and flawed. Also bemusingly enough doesn't put nikanor on his scum list, but then votes nikanor in the next post.
Page 13: A few people talk about who they are suspicious of. Cain is mentioned as a lurker and an inexperienced player.
Page 14: Cain arrives but allegedly doesn't respond to the suspicion on him. Toro makes a rather scummy bandwagon jump

and

calls Cain stupid which is mean.
Page 15: Cain replaces out. Was the pressure too much? Was he caught scum?
Page 16: Cain replaced by peacesells. Peacesells immediately votes for the person with the next highest amount of votes.
Peacesells then unvotes. Makes a decent point about scott.
Page 17: a few different cases are discussed. Peacesells is probably still the most popular lynch.
Page 18: hohum returns. A few people vote him as he didn't say a word on return.
Page 19: hohum gets more pressure. Apparently he was posting in another game. Toro does another rather scummy wagon hop.
hohum returns and states that hasdfgas lied about hohum posting in other games.
Page 20: peacesells asks for links to ongoing games (is he trying to get someone modkilled?)
An argument about talking about ongoing games ensues.
Apparently hohum is the one that is lying and actually was posting in other games.
Page 21: Zazier posts. Makes a good point about kill kill being inconsistent.
Hasdfgas says zazier's posting style is scummy. As the style is consistent this statement is inherently incorrect.
Page 22: Finished!

Scumlist (from highest to lowest):

Toro - a few bad wagon jumps
Scott - refer to peacesells case in post 385
either hohum or hasdfgas - whichever one turns out to be actually lying when we can definitively work this out (hopefully search thing works in the near future)
saberwolf - did enough to move the attention elsewhere and hasn't posted nearly as much since.

vote: toro

[ThAdmiral]

@Admiral
I was discussing with Nik and Has about my actions (over and over and over.....) so I think it's incorrect to say that there was little pressure for me to respond back.

It would be evidence against me to not respond back since it would imply Nik and Has are right. It would be evidence against me if I post back because I'm "fussing over nothing" or working too hard over some minor points.

Its a lose-lose situation, but the latter is much better because you actually have something to analyze. If I have been consistent in my reasoning throughout the rewording then it supports me. As soon as someone catches a contradiction, I'm scummy.

I accept this explanation. One of the main facets of mafia, after all, is communication and making sure people understand what you are saying and don't misinterpret you.

THAdmiral- You summarize the actions with hohum lately but don't offer an opinion? What do you think of him?

Since it now seems official that hohum was indeed posting in other games I find him scummy, but I am more happy with my toro vote for now.
Is there a deadline?

found it:

Walls of text(or spamfests) are an obfuscation tactic. I'm not sure if it's conscious logic, but it goes something like this: if a player determines that they can't avoid making scum tells, the strategy then becomes to make them as hard to find as possible. That means posting more stuff. Of course, posting more also has to happen in town roles, otherwise a simple word count becomes a tell. In addition to this strategy being problematic to games, it's also unfortunate as a strategy -- someone embracing this has decided to stop improving their play. The better idea is to learn what mistakes one makes as scum and work to avoid doing them in the future. Furthermore, it promotes an anti-town meta, in which players can't be read because they're either lurking (unable to keep up with the walls) or posting too much crap to be analyzed.

Even if this were true, which is debatable*, it doesn't have any bearing on a persons alignment within any given game.

* for example: more posting equals more of a chance for someone to slip as scum. If someone knows they are going to slip then posting a lot would make it worse for them, not better.

it, however, is extremely

detrimental to the town

, which is really what this is about.

Can you elaborate on this.

[ThAdmiral]

Did you even read the explanation, or any of the thread I linked? It goes over why posting a lot makes it easy for their scummy actions to be ignored. Because of the massive amount of info that they produce, their scummy actions will be passed over to get to other things that can be commented on.

That is not fact though it is just a theory, and it assumes that people are going to just pass over the large amount of text without reading it which I believe some might do but a lot wouldn't.

it, however, is extremely

detrimental to the town

, which is really what this is about.

Can you elaborate on this.

I already explained this. It throws so much information at the town that there's no way of telling what's useful and what's noise.

How would you define "useful" and "noise".

ThAdmiral, I don't mean to be rude, but how much of this game have you read? From your posts, I'm getting the feeling that it's not that much.

I've read through the entire game, but haven't done any deep analysis. I read pretty quickly to catch up but I think I have a pretty good grasp of what is happening.

[ThAdmiral]

I kind of agree with scott.

It's useless for the player claiming because, whether or not he's actually telling the truth, he'll get NKed anyways, as there is no doc or equivilent to prevent it. The only good part to the claim would be town would back off and increase their chances of a day 1 anti-town lynch

This is giving me a really bad vibe from both you and Scott now, sounds as

if you two are werewolves

and you'd want to make sure that Hohum (if he's the seer) doesn't speak to try and clear himself.

Unvote

Vote: Saberwolf

Why can we only be werewolves? Since you are mafia and know your other members? Mafia-slip perhaps?

The seer doesn't investigate for mafia, only werewolves. So mafia would have a lot more reason to fear the seer than a werewolf would.

Also, to confirm...

If someone claims seer and isn't the seer, the real seer should not counterclaim! The fake seer will get killed at night.

[ThAdmiral]

I assume you mean the other way around on the bolded. Wolves should fear seer more since they can be caught.

Correct.

Why are you answering for Toro?

Because it sounded like scott may not have fully understood the set up, i.e. seer can only investigate for werewolves and I thought it best to clear that up.

@ hohum: please try to post soon.

[ThAdmiral]

Peacesells: is the attack on saberwolf/hasdfgas serious or is this some kind of gambit. Because it's ridiculous.

[ThAdmiral]

I think the point of his question was that it was rhetorical, we have a deadline in 4 days however and I don't see another reasonable lynch unless you can convince me on a peace lynch that fast. The whole ridiculous thing with saberwolf is scummy, especially since were about to lynch hohum and

he's throwing threats around like he knows hohum is town.

This is a good point, but he wouldn't know he was town, just not of his faction.

[ThAdmiral]

Lawl. If saberwolf flips town, I'm looking at DTM tomorrow. If saberwolf flips scum, I'm definitely looking at peacesells tomorrow.

If saber flips town, I'll be looking at DTM first.
If saber flips werewolf, I'll be looking at peacesells first, then DTM.
If saber flips mafia, I'll be looking at both peacesells and DTM.

Setting up chain lynches is scumzors, and also giving up this sort of information helps scum more than it helps fellow towns.

ThAd

's catch-up posts feel a lot like summaries of what happened, instead of scumhunting. Not liking this.
Also, (

And this goes for everyone

) pick a color. From now on, I'll use bold and your colour when I addres you. Happy

Cow

?

This is basically correct. It was more for me to catch up than a serious attempt at scum hunting.
And I shotgun

violet

.

@ saberwolf: I think he's town. I'm going to

unvote, vote: scott

instead. Of all the people voting swolf he seems the least convinced of his own words.

[ThAdmiral]

That's all you have to say concerning SW? "I think he's town" That's pretty unhelpful, WHY do you think he's town. After his blowup, why is that a town tell to you?

Appeals to emotion are not exclusively done by scum. In fact I have often seen them done by town. This one seems genuine to me.

If someone claims seer and isn't the seer, the real seer should not counterclaim!

The fake seer will get killed at night.

Oh? How come (Regarding the bolded)?

The werewolves will kill them...unless the fake seer is a werewolf.
Regardless I still think the real seer should wait until at least one negative result before claiming. What do you think?

cause I don't buy your concerned for townie ploy. I call BS.

Where is this 'concerned for townie ploy' about which you keep speaking?

the whole time you bring up AtE as your main attack against me. Planning on scenarios, and trying to cover your ass with options upon my lynch.

I think scott is more likely to be scum, hence my vote on him. Join me, saberwolf.

[ThAdmiral]

I highly doubt you're going to get a lynch on Scott today ThAdmiral, with 5 hours until deadline, what are you going to accomplish by having Saberwolf join you?

Solidarity?
A warm feeling in my stomach? (or maybe a few centimeters lower...)

You can join me too if you like.

@ zazier: are you going to vote for someone?
(if so, go with scott)

[ThAdmiral]

I hate it when the scum just kill off the person who was talking the most.
(I also hate it when people kill of zazie regardless)

It is also possible zaz was on the right track:

Also, the scum:
-Saber
-Kill
-Hohum
-Peace

I'm having doubts between 2 players for the fifth spot.

Obviously he was wrong about saber, but I would not be against a lynch of, say, hohum. (note that saber, another confirmed town, also had hohum pegged as scum)

vote: hohum

[ThAdmiral]

I have no idea why Zazie was killed, but speculating on the nightkill is probably not a good idea.
ThAdmiral, what happened to your suspicion of Scott from yesterday? Are you still suspicious of him?

Not as suspicious. At least he's probably not a werewolf. I tried to goad him in to killing me yesterday and since that didn't happen I feel like there is a fairly low chance he's a wolf. He still could be mafia but I'm willing to look at others for now.

[ThAdmiral]

Well..I really hate the way they handle night phases here. I don't see any reason why we should not be able to continue to discuss the game during that phase.

This could be a ploy, but it could also basically confirm him as town. I doubt he would be saying this if he was in any of the scum groups and was actually able to speak at night.

@ nikanor: in my experience bussing happens a lot less than it is given credit for, and mainly only comes up when a scum is very, very likely to be lynched anyway. The fact that hohum survived despite a fairly strong wagon day 1 added to the fact that we then ended up lynching a town means scum points to hohum.
At this point I hardly even care if he comes back. My mind is pretty much made up.

[ThAdmiral]

Don't be so hasty, stuff like that is a null-tell at best. Why so interested in clearing peace?

Well..I really hate the way they handle night phases here. I don't see any reason why we should not be able to continue to discuss the game during that phase.

This could be a ploy, but it could also basically confirm him as town. I doubt he would be saying this if he was in any of the scum groups and was actually able to speak at night.

this is major WIFOM. I expected better from you.

I did mention that it could have been a ploy, but I honestly think it was genuine. Agree to disagree I guess.

I'm here

And?

[ThAdmiral]

Still here but haven't been able to get on for a few days. Will catch up and post hopefully soon.

[ThAdmiral]

One interesting thing in that post, Scott, why are you more interested in the wolves than the mafia? I don't like what appears to be selective scumhunting.

This is a good point.

Mainly because we have a confirmed werewolf dead, so there is more information to be drawn upon from that. Interactions with hohum are telling since we know he is a werewolf. We have no dead mafia so there is less to go on with them. Of less importance, I would rather kill off the last wolf than mafia as it gives the us a better chance since there would be no NK and then we can concentrate on lynching mafia.

And this is a fair response. However I disagree and would argue that mafia are by far the bigger threat now, and that keeping a werewolf around would cause as much trouble to them (perhaps even more) than it would for us.

In fact, since there is only one of you left, and there is a seer out there searching for you, you are most likely going to lose anyway...

To the last werewolf: claim now and we will let you live as long as you kill who we tell you to kill.

We still have a seer that can out the last wolf, remember.
Also, now that we are down to one wolf, the seer should claim as soon as he gets a guilty.

This is also correct.

[ThAdmiral]

I like.

vote: toro

[ThAdmiral]

And ThAdmiral, I don't like how you just roll with Nikanor just like that.

You wouldn't like that since I'm voting you.

Basically think of the most recent thing with nikanor as a delightful cherry on top of the already delicious looking cake that is your scumminess.

[ThAdmiral]

Anyone getting a vibe that peacesells is bussing here?

He may have been bussing, but that would still depend on toro being scum, so you should be voting for toro anyway.

[ThAdmiral]

Can we focus? I want opinions on Toro and an explanation of why you think either Nik or peace is more scummy then him at this point in time. What do you think of Toro Cow?

I think he's a VI.

Can you elaborate on this.
I know what a vi is but I feel that they are usually the victims of day 1 or 2 lynches, rather than day 3 or later lynches.

[ThAdmiral]

@Admiral

I assume VI is what Sabre's ghost said, I mean what the wind whispered?

Usually you claim someone is a VI if they are going to be lynched early in a game for saying stupid stuff etc. It is rare to find them popping up later in games hence my question.

[ThAdmiral]

@Admiral
I see, then I would like to see has' argument on this then. I would safely assume that you disagree with this VI idea correct?

I personally don't believe he's displayed many of the classic signs of being VI up to this point.

I dunno, it just seems like he has no idea what's going on. I have usually seen them as victims of early lynches, but I don't consider that a prereq to someone being lynched, because you can be a VI without being lynched, whether it's playstyle or just actions you've taken.

I think he has been following the game pretty well so far. While I see what you are saying I honestly believe his behavior stems from his being scummy rather than any lack of paying attention or knowledge of the rules/roles of mafia etc.

[ThAdmiral]

Toro: if you are not scum, who is?

[ThAdmiral]

if you believe Toro is scum...why not spend this time hunting his partners as well?

You mean you?

[ThAdmiral]

I'm going to have a look through the voting history to see if I can glean any info.

[ThAdmiral]

Also would anyone be interesting in replacing in to a game that has dire need of it? Let me know by pm.

[ThAdmiral]

Day 1

Saberwolf

: 7 (

ZazieR

,

Toro

, Scott Brosius, DTMaster, Nikanor,

hohum

, Shotty to the Body)
hohum: 2 (

peacesells

, saberwolf)
DTMaster: 1 (

Kill-kill

)
Scott Brosius: 1 (ThAdmiral)

Not Voting: (hasdgfas)

Day 2

hohum

: 6 (ThAdmiral, Scott Brosius, DTMaster,

Toro

,

peacesells

,

hohum

)

Not Voting: (hasdgfas,

Kill-kill

, Nikanor, Shotty to the Body)

Day 3

Toro

: 5 (Nikanor, ThAdmiral, Shotty to the Body, DTMaster, Scott Brosius)

peacesells

: 1 (hasdgfas)
Nikanor: 1 (

Toro

)

Not Voting: (

peacesells

)


I plan to have a look at all the major wagons as well and how they formed, but just based on this I would say Scott Brosius and DTMaster look most likely to be scum buddies with toro. Not only have they been on every lynch wagon, they voted with toro days one and two (I feel that scumbuddies are more likely to gang up on the same target than not*) and were they final two votes on toro day 3 so could have decided to do a late bus to get scum-hammering points.

* although I doubt they would all vote the same every day so it is more likely that only one of the two are actually partners with toro.

[ThAdmiral]

Also note that hasdfgas has not voted twice and the one time he did have a vote on at the end of the day it was on a townie. Helpful!

[ThAdmiral]

Didn't realize I wasn't voting.

I have a strange and powerful feeling that scott is scum but don't really have anything to back it up other than the voting patterns.

Other than that I tend to agree that hasdfgas basically must be scum. Wish washiness and semi-lurking all game added to the bad voting history.

Vote: hasdfgas

[ThAdmiral]

Interesting situation. I can't decide what is more reckless - lynching him now or not lynching him!

I'd also like seer to claim. (Is it you, shotty?)

[ThAdmiral]

I need to reread the first couple days before I get back to you Scott, btw Admiral what made you think I was the Seer?

Not anything in particular but I have you pegged as town so I figured there was a good chance you might have been the seer.

ThA- Now that I am town, does that make DTM more likely to be scum as you claimed in your vote analysis (following Toro's vote patterns but both of us weren't mafia.

Yes. I am thinking dtm/nik mafia by process of elimination.

[ThAdmiral]

I think I already made my suspects clear in my last post, but just to reiterate:

DTM
Nik

[ThAdmiral]

I'm still here.

Lynch dtm, have has kill nik, lynch has tomorrow?
Sounds like a plan to me.

vote: dtm

[ThAdmiral]

has and shotty should vote dtm.

[ThAdmiral]

Well my dtm read was mainly based off the lynch results and voting history which once again shows how much of that is an inexact science.

I have to say I am surprised that shotty is the last mafiate as I had a strong gut feeling he was town, but there's not really much to discuss. The decision tomorrow will ultimately come down to you, Scott.

vote: hasdfgas

[ThAdmiral]

Am a bit busy with stuff at the moment but hopefully will be able to get on tomorrow.
May I ask who you are leaning towards?

[ThAdmiral]

Ok I am finally back (internet problems again! does anyone else hate dlink products?). Anyway here is my case on shotty:

Shotty first joined us on page 19 replacing lumi who replaced linkspartner. Linkspartner didn't post at all and lumi hardly anything, however lumi did have a couple of interesting posts involving toro.
- In his iso 1 he talks about most of the players. He doesn't have reads on a lot of them, but regarding toro says "not getting a good gut feeling here".
- In his iso 3 he makes a joke about toro being paranoid and this being a scum tell.
This is classic scum behaviour: saying you are suspicious of one of your scum mates but not saying why, and even having a bit of joking banter with them. What this equates to is a situation where lumi didn't feel compelled to start a wagon on his scum partner, but if a wagon started lumi could join to bus without it seeming suspicious. He could always say he had suspicions on him from way back.

On to shotty. First of all lets look at his voting record.
Day 1

Saberwolf

: 7 (

ZazieR

,

Toro

,

Scott Brosius

,

DTMaster

,

Nikanor

,

hohum

,

Shotty to the Body

)
Day 2
Not Voting: (

hasdgfas

,

Kill-kill

,

Nikanor

,

Shotty to the Body

)
Day 3

Toro

: 5 (

Nikanor

, ThAdmiral,

Shotty to the Body

,

DTMaster

,

Scott Brosius

)
Day 4

DTMaster

: 4 (ThAdmiral,

Scott Brosius

,

Shotty to the Body

,

hasdgfas

)

Now the first thing you will notice is that he hammered saberwolf day 1. And why?

Bah, don't think this is the right lynch but the town seems to think otherwise.

vote saberwolf

Now I know that it was late in the day and would have been a no lynch otherwise, but I hold the belief that if you don't think someone should be lynched you don't vote them. I didn't.
Also this type of vote is typical of scum. It is very convenient for them as they don't have to take any responsibility for the lynch, and they get the added bonus of killing off a townie (or in this game non-mafiate).

The second thing you might realize is the amusing hypocrisy inherent in shotty's case against me.
- he says that I was bandwagonning toro when he jumps on the same wagon one vote after me.
- he says I am suspicious for voting dtm and having dtm as one of my main suspects, but he also voted for dtm and also had dtm as one of his main suspects.

Thirdly he non-voted day 2. Not a major point, but pro town people really should be voting.

I've got more but I have to go now. Will post more later.

[ThAdmiral]

Seriously, you're going to try to use the three posts of people I replaced as evidence? That's desperate, bro. I told you the whole way saber was the wrong lynch, I ARGUED AGAINST IT but if I had no lynched where would we have been without his flip? Nothing anti-town there.

I agree you shouldn't be held accountable for the words, but the fact is I am not going to ignore them, especially when they seem to be a good indication of your alignment (that's mafia for those of you who haven't been paying close attention).

Your post for voting Toro was 4 fucking words, mine was post upon post of PARAGRAPHS of analysis. I did independent ISO reads and analysis, you jumped on right after Nik's so-called gambit which was obviously set-up the night before and you follow right onto Toro's wagon because of it! IT'S SO TRANSPARENT! Also look at Toro's 950 952 953 while I'm reading it, distancing from his two partners.

I never said that you didn't provide reasons for voting toro, I just think it is rather spurious of you to suggest that I was bandwagoning toro just because I happened to have the second vote on him. And as I explained at the time I already had my suspicions of toro which I went in to previously.
By the way if the supposed nik-toro-gambit-conspiracy truly is "SO TRANSPARENT" why have you only brought it up now?

Where did I say I'm suspicious of you for the DTM votes? Paranoid much? Provide post numbers please. I purposefully didn't bring it up because we both made the relatively same play and yet he claims I'm using it in my case and calling me a hypocrite! Way to misrep something I didn't even SAY.

Three of the points in your pbpa include references to it, plus in post 1214 you use my suspicion of dtm as a point against me.

Yes, it is always pro-town to be voting even though you just said I shouldn't have voted D1 to kill Saber because I didn't think he was scum. Who's the hypocrite now?

Who's misrepresenting now? I never said you shouldn't vote at all, in fact it's actually pretty easy to figure out my veritable conundrum: just. vote. for. who. you. think. is. scum.
Got it?

[ThAdmiral]

I figured this would happen. For the record I wasn't stalling in the end I literally did have rather annoying internet problems.

Anyway good game everyone.

[ThAdmiral]

@ has: definitely not one of your best games, although I didn't think you were outright bad. It wasn't one of my best games either, though, now that we're on the subject.

It is intriguing to me, however, that werewolves/sk/other non-town killing roles so often will turn themselves in when it looks like their time is up and agree to follow the towns wishes rather than trying to protest their innocence/dying without helping town. I know I've done it. It seems given the choice we would always rather help town than scum, which I guess indicates we are all good guys at heart!

[ThAdmiral]

@ has: definitely not one of your best games, although I didn't think you were outright bad. It wasn't one of my best games either, though, now that we're on the subject.

It is intriguing to me, however, that werewolves/sk/other non-town killing roles so often will turn themselves in when it looks like their time is up and agree to follow the towns wishes rather than trying to protest their innocence/dying without helping town. I know I've done it. It seems given the choice we would always rather help town than scum, which I guess indicates we are all good guys at heart!

Agreeing to help town is the only way to play it if you're going to attempt to pull out a win because otherwise you get lynched. =P

The other option is the counter claim. Unlikely anyone would be believe it but stranger things have happened.
In any case there is no way the wolf can win once he goes along with the town as they will surely lynch him eventually so it is a bit moot imo.