Amished wrote:(First off, I love pre-game, it's so boring that I can do this while having that on in the background. Secondly, I apologize for the triple post, but this is something that I promised I would post.)
Ok, so in my notes, my points against China are thus: Post 181/191, 215, 285 and 288. I also have to lol at his attempts in 336 and 374. All bolding will be mine.
Chinaman in 181 wrote:So far I have a pretty much null read on everyone. I honestly believe that the argument between MM and Manz was town vs town.
I got the feeling there were exaggerations in both arguments and it is my opinion that scum would tend to avoid a huge confrontation like that at the very beginning of a game. I of course could be totally wrong here, but if either one were scum, they put themselves in the spotlight far too much with their back and forth.
What I will be doing when I go back through is looking for those who tried to fuel the fire without jumping in too hard themselves.
Anyway, that's all I got thus far and I hope to catch up soon.
and then compare that sentiment to this:
Chinaman wrote:Anyway, like I said, I made it through and am pretty much current. Not being involved in the first 7 pages of discussion, it's hard to get as good a read on anyone as of yet. I am going to re-read, and come back with some questions and comments.
My predecessor made one post and that was an RVS vote on the now current bandwagon. I do not yet know how I feel about him, but I have read some good points made by you all about some scummy things he's doing. In my first read through, I had to agree with most of the points on him, but as I haven't had a chance to ask him any questions or come up with a solid argument for why I am on the wagon, I must UNVOTE till I feel that the vote on him is from me and not left over from Sweep.
First off, with so many people saying that MMan vs. Manz/Skruffs is town vs. town, I'm 95% certain that it is, and scum are playing the angle of townies that feel confident that their town reads are correct. This is a major point that I feel makes MMan more clear than anything else I have that can point to, other than I understand where he's coming from had I been in his position. I wouldn't have said some of the things he's said, but as I can see his point of view, I'm more confident that he's town as well.
Second point: Skruffs pointed out that Scien was trying to fuel the flames (which I found particularly poignant in this case) and China didn't see that Scien was doing exactly what China said he was going to look for. No town motivation for this, and in the space of 10 posts (an hour and a half) it's highly unlikely that his mind would've changed that quickly about what he was going to look for. This alone is enough for me to vote for both of them.
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Tbh, at this point, I thought that scien was trying to say that this fight was town vs town, which at the time I agreed with. I thought that he wasn't taking sides due to that reason. I didn't see him as fueling the fire more so that he was trying to get each of the parties to think about what they were saying to each other. I can see the fuel the fire point now after reading your case on Scien and agreeing with most of it. If you look at scien in a scum light, it looks now like that is exactly what he was doing. Other than that, nothing stood out to me during that back and forth between Manz and MM except that I, unlike you, could see more from where Manz was coming from. I added this to my case on MM because at that point, I was viewing MM through scum goggles.
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Moving on
Chinaman in 215 wrote:MM wrote:I've already explained I want my vote to be on the record, I'm guessing scum on Raivann at this point and to not vote would be anti-town. I think there's a good chance Raivann could eventually be lynched and I'd rather vote now than give scum the opportunity to vote at L-1. If people have a problem with my vote, I'll unvote if they are worried about a scum lynch.
So does that mean if a scum gets lynched and there are 3 people on on the wagon, are those 3 people your next top suspects since them not being on the wagon is "anti-town"?
Also, I don't like that you are worried about what other people think of your vote. It's not the vote people were attacking...it's you basically holding up a big neon sign saying "Hey guys, for the record, I voted for scum!!" That's what is bothering people including myself. The fact that you want to "make others happy" by removing your vote if they say to do so also bothers me. If you think he's scum, who cares what others think about your vote? It's supposed to be your opinion. If it bites you in the ass later, well, it bites you in the ass. Only scum truely care about how they look in others eyes. Town care about finding and lynching scum. So yeah, the above questions to be answered please.
Epic strawman. EPIC.
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I see your point on the strawman, but I was actually looking for an answer to his gameplay. If Raivann would have been lynched instead of Modkilled, I wouldn't necessarily think looking at those not on the wagon first would be a bad thing. In fact, in light of there being a possibility of 2 more scum, I would say odds are that if there were scum on Raivann's wagon, there would only be one and not both so looking into those not on the wagon would be a good start. At any rate, that wasn't the main reason for the post, it was the big ole neon flashing sign he put with his vote that bugged me.
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Chinaman in 285 wrote:MM wrote:I appreciate Scien giving Raivann a chance, but he's agreeing with some stuff that is clearly scummy. Saying that the Manzcar discussion was "boring", possibly trying to derail the Wagon with a Zeenon wagon, giving Raivann "town points" for defending himself better, when he is clearly still behind on town points overall. It's like saying someone is a good baseball player for batting .240, because he was batting .180 before. I'm questioning the logic here, and the possibility of a Raivann/Scien scum team.
His VERY NEXT post
MM wrote:Well, I'm still suspicious of the buddying, although I agree Raivann might be bad town rather than scum. It's hard to tell at this point.
Talk about your flip-flop! That sounds like scum trying to cover their mislynching azz.
Or am I just crazy? Hell, the only post in between those two post was from Scien.
Scien wrote:
(quote snipped)
I don't like this play from MM at all. First off, I'm getting a town read from Scien at this point. Secondly, his is the only post in between the first quoted post from MM and the second. This is pretty much a scumslip in my eyes. Going to go back now and take a nice long look at MM. Before you go saying, "what, are we not aloud to change our minds" or some other similar post, note that
I already explained why this wouldn't be ok (it's too quick in case you missed my above points). The other reason this wouldn't be ok, is because you didn't explain at all why you had such the sudden change of heart. Going from full throttle lynch someone to maybe they are town so quick just reeks of scum.
Also note: You say there is a possible scien/raivann team in one post then take Scien's explanation at face value the next? I don't even need to go back on you in order to VOTE: MonkeyMan....I am still going to though.
First, it's necessary to understand the circumstances around these posts. Scien was slowly trying to turn the tide against Raiv, and was moderately successful before the modkill (which I would've thought would end the day, but this works better for me); but to do so, there had to be an alternate wagon for people to look at. Here comes China!
Ok, first bolded: Clearly that was not the case, and the extreme way that it was phrased is a clear appeal to fear (of mislynching). With China most likely feeling that MMan could compete with (and overtake) Raiv with his "case" against MMan; he could get MMan lynched, coach Raiv so as not to get lynched during the night, and never know about a mislynch.
Second bolded: Every scummer has had doubts at some point during their career about a lynch. I've been confident and they turn up town, confident and they turn up scum, very unsure and they turn up scum, unsure with town, and fully against both town and scum wagons. Second guessing yourself, especially in the venue of forum mafia is 100% natural. MMan keeping his vote on Raiv while examining his reasons for it is 100% natural, and something I can definitely see coming from town rather than scum. In this case, I would expect scum to *either* push more on a Raiv lynch and then later claim to be a big proponent of the lynch, or distance mightily and go under the guise of trying not to tunnel on the #1 scumspect (even though China is tunneling on MMan).
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First off, I WAS afraid of a mislynch. MM was my top suspect and he was on raivann. I didn't necessarily think Raivann was very town either, but at the time, I was on MM as being scum. Should I not be afraid of a mislynch if my number one suspect is going after someone with a wagon? Also, I may have jumped on the little things, but as a good friend once said, the devil's in the details. I may have come on too harsh, but by that point, I was convinced MM was scummy. All I really wanted was why the quick change of heart. Looking back now, I see he answered it but....I will admit that by this time, I had tunnel vision on MM. I didn't like many of his posts that would have made me think town except that he felt the need to point out that his actions were being very town.
At the end of this section, you say scum would either do one thing, or something completely different. What do you think a town person would do here?
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Chinaman wrote:I would like you to explain how you can say "I'm questioning the logic here, and the possibility of a Raivann/Scien scum team. " then suddenly Scien (someone you just got done calling scum-mate with Raivann) makes some "good points" and all a sudden....
I think it's scummy. Hence my post. And I already told you that a simple post like the one you just posted was not gonna be a good enough explanation for me. Seriously...read the end of my post...I'll even re-post it for you.
I wrote: Before you go saying, "what, are we not aloud to change our minds"
or some other similar post
, note that I already explained why this wouldn't be ok (it's too quick in case you missed my above points).
It's not adding up. I don't see how you say there's a possible team then take one of the persons on that team's post and say it had good points. If you thought there was a possible team, why would you even consider one of those people on that team that their post would be good advise or points? Shouldn't you take it with a large grain of salt? You would if you were town.
While you may never listen to those you suspect (since apparently you're never wrong?) there's plenty of town motivation to try to allow people you're suspicious of to clear themselves or dig themselves a bigger hole. Why else do suspects change from day to day? Cause *townies* often look at different things, and gauge how scummy those actions look. If nobody was willing to change their mind, how many lynches do you really think would occur? You pressing this obviously scummy outlook is another rather clear sign that you're scum as well.
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Good point here. This is again possibly being due to my tunnel vision. Although I don't believe it's as obviously scummy as you do. If anything, either side can tunnel. I would assume that scum would want to do it less so that they have options available to them to switch to the biggest wagon. When you tunnel someone, it's hard to come back and say you changed your mind. You must have a better reason for changing it than if you were to play less tunnely. This is actually part of my current problem. Your post about Scien is very convincing, but I have obviously been very much of the opinion that MM is scummy. I now have to weigh the arguments and see which makes the most sense for D1 lynch.
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Ok, on to what I had to lol at. 322 (where cruelty and MMan start to go after "lurkers are anti-town, what is prodding lurkers then?") has MMan saying that prodding lurkers is pro-town. in
336 China goes off and pokes d3x and Jason for lurking as well. I view this as a bad attempt to do something that at the very least a null-tell (according to cruel) all the way to pro-town (according to MMan).
Normally, I would've let this go, but china's post
374 shows a pattern for me. Skruffs in 364 (same page, page 15) says that the flip should be huge for everybody, to go back and look for connections because that's what somebody pro-town would do (essentially). 374 has China going back to do exactly that; in what I would classify as a blatant attempt to look good in the players of a pro-town player.
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Ok, first off, I don't like the idea of you sitting back and laughing at me (or my posts). So if you could leave it to 'I thought this funny', or 'this struck me as peculiar', I would be much obliged. Now, I will have to say these two paragraphs make the least sense. From what I can gather, you are saying that because I did something "townie", but did it after someone else said it was "townie", it's scummy? Not to be rude, but should I have added in my post that what I was doing was townie like MM has done?
Also, this is not a pattern for many reasons. First of all, you would have to go back and look at everything everyone has said is a pro-town move and see if I then afterward tried to emulate it. Secondly, it is 2 instances where I have done something townie....2 townies don't make a scummy. I don't think this is valid in any case (especially one on me). But that's my opinion.
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Finally:
Chinaman in 409 wrote:MM: Cruelty is entirely right in the fact it is not crazy scummy to be suspicious of you and someone you are suspicious of. I hadn't really thought too much about what other roles might be out there, but if he is taking that into consideration, his suspicion of you and someone you are suspicious of makes sense if there are other non-town roles. Would you agree? Also, you unvote and FoS: Scien. I'm assuming this is mainly due to ZEE's ISO post. Then you later Vote him. Here's my problem with this....
you unvoted ZEE and then picked up his top suspect on one post from him. He didn't answer any questions you and others had for him, but you unvote him based on his scumhunt? What if you were right and he was scum?! Would anything in his ISO be worth a dump in the toilet? Anything at all? It doesn't sit right with me.
It's opportunistic to switch back and forth so freely. Also, the fact that he put you at the top of his town list makes it look a little like buddying to me. He's the only one who's said your actions are towny, and tbh, I can't tell where he's getting it from. Let's look at what has stood out about you as I see it:
This section bothers me the most. MMan voted for ZEEnon for *lurking*. ZEE explained that he didn't have access, and would post. That was the point of MMan's vote. With his stance that lurkers are scummy/anti-town; this makes perfect sense for him to vote for a lurker, and retract this after said person promises to post. It's not about suspicion, and your characterization of it as such is rather blatant scum. Also, with Skruffs post (and your 374 that I had to lol at); you have direct evidence from *this game* that a scum flip can cause plenty of connections, but (and I might not see it here) China didn't even try to explain how Raiv's actions tie into MMan. Then you say that a scum flip says nothing about the rest of the game? Bull****. You're scum, as well as Scien, and this post has probably 5x more than needed for me to vote you instantly too.
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