Mini 855: Colorless Rainbow Town (Halted for list mod error)

[Dizzle]

If scum were all goons, why would Mod list mafia roles in the list of possible roles?

[Dizzle]

I can percieve where a townie would be concerned with rolefishing in general

being concerned about rolefishing in general without noting the difference between looking for scum info and looking for town info is suspicious at least

I understand that you made a distinction about looking for scum/town info, but it seems like you offer up two different stances on general rolefishing within two sentences.

[Dizzle]

Why does it matter Monkey what roles are out there?

That's an attack or an attempt to incriminate you? From my perspective, he only brought up the possibility of rolefishing once you voted for him.

[Dizzle]

I agree with cruelty here, proclaiming Fuzzy as leaning town seems premature given his, and the general, lack of posts. I look forward to hearing Raivann's reasoning.

[Dizzle]

As you can tell from my fairly late reply, I cannot be on as frequently as I would like to. Therefore, I don't know what could happen from the time I sign out to the next time I sign in. For all I know, it's been a hectic weekend, and I was unable to sign on. Therefore, a lynch could be realized even before I could see it progress. I think that even without voting him, voicing my suspicions of him gives the same results as me actually voting him. Hell, I said I would be voting him. Therefore, I think it gives the same result.

I would go so far to say that 5 votes over a weekend is highly unreasonable to expect.

Are you suggesting that people shouldn't vote for who they find suspicious? What's wrong with 5 votes when it takes 7 to lynch?

Monkey, as there are currently 2 votes on Raivann, I believe Fuzzy was saying that it is unlikely for 5 more Raivann votes to occur this weekend. Maybe you knew that and just have no problem with a quicklynch. Either way, I don't like how you cast suspicion on Fuzzy for merely saying that a quicklynch was unlikely. He was neither advocating for it or against it. To assume otherwise is plain scummy.

[Dizzle]

Quit twisting my words. Major, obvious word twisting. 5 votes does NOT mean quicklynch, and I specifically said that he was only on 2 or 3 votes.

I'm not quite understanding. By more count, 5 more votes over the weekend would be a quicklynch.

[Dizzle]

EBWOP: By "my" count, 5 more votes over the weekend would be a quicklynch.

[Dizzle]

@Dizzle- You said that you were awaiting Raivann's justification for his read on Fuzzy. He gave it. What are your thoughts on his response?

I don't think there really can be any justification for "leaning town" on someone who has only uttered 2 sentences. I agree with Fuzzy that Manzcar's original response wasn't antagonistic but I don't see how throwing out a vote with his 2nd post could possibly be considered as pro-town. Sitting back and voting while letting others take the lead in discussion (and thereby possibly attracting suspicion) certainly shouldn't lead anyone to think that Fuzzy is probably town and Raivann deserves scrutiny for believing otherwise.

[Dizzle]

I don't disagree with your p173, but I do wonder if your feeling is so hardline now, what exactly were you looking for when you said...

I look forward to hearing Raivann's reasoning.

Yes, my mind was pretty much made up that there could be no rational reason to consider Fuzzy leaning town at that point, but I was giving Raivann the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he had a legitimate explanation that no one had thought of or maybe he would just dig himself into a further hole (which he did). I would vote Raivann right now but I am a little worried that this lynch is progressing so rapidly.

I don't want to be the level 1 vote

Is level one the same as L-1? If so, why would you not want to be the last vote?

[Dizzle]

I don't want scum to have the opportunity to hammer before we discuss if we actually want to hammer.

If that's the case, then why did you just put Raivann at L-2? I feel like I'm missing something here, please enlighten me.

[Dizzle]

I can see what MM is saying. If there are two (or more) scum, and Raivann isn't one of them (or he is and they've decided he's a liability) then they can hardly 1-2 hammer without some serious heat being fired their way. L1 is a different proposition, one guy with a convincing reason for his vote could hammer and slip away quite easily.

Sure, I guess, but if you're worried about scum being able to hammer at L-1, why even bring the vote count 1 step closer by making it L-2? Why not just give the warning about not lynching or getting to L-1 too quickly? Raivann knows he's amassed a good deal of suspicion so there's really no need for Monkey's vote at all. Raivann is back to L-3 now anyway, I think, but I still don't like Monkey's vote/explanation.

[Dizzle]

I'm not worried about a scum lynch, especially at L-3. I am worried that you want your vote to be on the record.

[Dizzle]

Yes, a good townie wants to vote out scum but he ultimately shouldn't care whether he is the one doing the voting. All that matters is that scum are lynched. On the other hand, scum who want to give the appearance of being good townies will vote each other out to gain townie points.

[Dizzle]

I really don't see what the point in withholding my vote would be if I believe there is a strong case against him. Are you suggesting I don't vote for him so I don't look like I'm trying to build town cred?

I suggest that you don't publicly state that one of the reasons you're voting for him is to build townie cred. But cruelty is correct, while they still don't sit well with me, I'm probably exaggerating the significance of your comments.

[Dizzle]

On d3x's point, to be fair to Monkey, he only asked for one player's top townies, not everyone's. However, for an experienced player such as Monkey to not be able to conceive how info could possibly be bad for the town is worrisome. Yes, info is generally good for the town but I'm sure Monkey could think up a few instances in which it might not be.

[Dizzle]

I knew you were well aware, just making sure that Monkey knew that I was well aware as well. Hopefully everyone is well aware now.

[Dizzle]

I agree with cruelty here, proclaiming Fuzzy as leaning town seems premature given his, and the general, lack of posts. I look forward to hearing Raivann's reasoning.

Voting me for giving a town read on someone? Giving town reads on players is protown and my scumdar is operating at maximum effectiveness.

Yeah, not sure what this is all about as neither I nor cruelty have voted for you. It seems that your scumdar is in need of repair.

Also, do you have any other thoughts on the discussion since you last checked in?

[Dizzle]

#1 priority is to get better, man. Rest up and when you can make it, we'll be here.

Um, no. I don't know about you guys, but IRL I never have to decide whether or not to lynch random strangers. MS is obviously the #1 priority....JK, glad to see you're back and relatively healthy Jason.

I honestly don't have much to add at this point other than I think Scien defended himself well against Skruffs.

Also

Would you support a Zeenon lynch, Scien?

Maybe I'm missing something, but this seems like a somewhat random, blatant and desperate attempt to get a lynch started on someone else or at least to gauge the possibility. I'm fairly certain that Raivann is scum but I would still like to get the opportunity to get these last couple of days for Raivann's "defense" and further discussion. If anyone agrees, perhaps they could unvote.

I have not quoted anything as I got accussed in my last game of

Mastin posting

... eep

Is this a typo or am I just unfamiliar with this term?

[Dizzle]

I am aware of this possibility as well, but there is something in his last set of answers that is giving me a feel that he truly is behind this game.

Behind this game...what exactly does that mean? That he's giving a full effort? That you now think he might be town?

I'm not having fun.

I strongly dislike WIFOM statements like this minor complaint or his earlier one that said we'd be sorry if we lynched his poor townie butt. If you're town, defend yourself and find the real scum. If you're scum, defend yourself and find a townie to lynch or a fellow scum to bus. As Scien has noted, Raivann has actually done a better job of defending himself recently, but don't waste our time with this nonsense.

[Dizzle]

FYI, it's Dizzle, not Drizzle. Common mistake, carry on.

[Dizzle]

Oh right, good catch Fuzzy, I didn't know what ruleset you were talking about earlier either.

[Dizzle]

do I detect a whiff that you are happy about [Raivann being modkilled]?

Was this directed at Fuzzy or myself?

Right now, since Raivann flipped scum, I will UNVOTE due to my main suspicion being surrounded around Raivann/MM connections. It originally seemed like an MM going after largest wagon then backtracking once wagon died down a bit.

My argument on you died with Raivann.

I'm not sure I agree with this line of thinking. Go ahead and re-evaluate things, of course, but it's just as likely that scum (MonkeyMan) saw the hole Raivann had dug himself and wanted to get his antiscum vote "on the record." It's also a little early this time to qualify as bandwagon jumping, but it's become a pattern of behavior for Monkey add his vote to cases that are picking up steam. He saw the 2 votes on Zee and immediately made himself the 3rd vote. Given Monkey's behavior during the Manzcar episode, his explanation for his Raivann vote and his latest mostly unexplained vote for Zee, I think it's time for my first vote of the game.

Vote: MonkeyMan576

[Dizzle]

I'm not sure what kind of defence you expect me to put up to that. It seems like pretty petty reasons for a vote when there are people a lot more strongly linked to defending Raivann than me.

Other than sensing a mounting of suspicion of Zee and increasing pressure for him to unveil his synopsis, why did you vote for Zee?

[Dizzle]

As of right now, I'm sticking with my Monkey vote. Since I've last checked in, he's incorrectly attempted to claim that cruelty suggested that he should ignore lurkers and...

Voting me for giving a town read on someone? Giving town reads on players is protown

I recognized him as lurking, and bringing out lurkers is pro-town

...both Raivann and Monkey seemed desperate to point out their townlike actions when neither was really being accused of anything. It smacks of nervous, scrambling scum.

Along with Monkey, Raivann listed Zee as probscum and both China and Fuzzy as probtown. Like everyone else, I am waiting for Zee to return and make some meaningful posts. I am also looking forward to Fuzzy making his first meaningful post. By my count, all but 2 of his posts have been less than 1 sentence. Coupled with Raivann's super early town declaration of him, I would like to hear much much more from Fuzzy. Finally, I never really understood why China unvoted Monkey and I hope that he can further explain that the next time he posts.

[Dizzle]

I can't wait to see how Zee, or anyone else for that matter, tries to paint Monkey as town. Should be an interesting read.

@Monkey - So you get on the Zee bandwagon nice and early as to not be accused of bandwagoning this time. Immediately after Zee makes his first significant post in a while, you drop your vote on him and switch your suspicion over to the scum at the top of his fancy town/mafia list. To me, it looks like you go after whomever you think will become the town's top suspect with little or no regard to any actually scummy things they have done.

Scien seemed intent on slowing it down.

While Scien did seem to question his vote of Raivann in p.267, he made no effort that I could find of trying to change others' votes. Skruffs was the first person, I think, that questioned the Raivann votes.

1) That I've been a proactive scumhunter, at least more so than most players

2) I was on Raivann's scumlist...

3) I was on the Raivann wagon

4) I am on Zeenon's townlist

1) We get it, you want us to think you're town, enough already.

2) Raivann knew he was in trouble so it's not out of the realm of possibility that he would try to bus his partners or try to distance himself for their future benefit.

3) So were many other people, some of whom could have been Raivann's partners. You also stated that your vote was partly to get it "on the record".

4) Zee is just one player who, like all of us, is susceptible to making mistakes. Due to his lurking and avoidance of questions, I would assume that he is near the top of many people's suspect lists too. Anyway, how does Zee's opinion of cruelty as likely town change the way that you look at the back and forth between yourself and cruelty?

@everyone, are the points I'm making against MM valid? Vice versa?

Yes, I think you're making mostly valid points. I do take issue with you stating that you'd be ok with a Zee lynch because active lurking supersedes your suspicion of Monkey. Do you mean that active lurking always supersedes any suspicions you might have or just in this case with Monkey?

[Dizzle]

I can't wait to see how Zee, or anyone else for that matter, tries to paint Monkey as town.

@Dizzle: Why do you feel ZEEnon and MMan are paired?

I was merely referring to Zee placing Monkey at the top of his townie list and his statement that he 100% does not agree with the Monkey lynch. Another reason would be that Monkey switched his vote over to Scien after Zee released his list and Monkey still hasn't provided any reasoning for his Scien vote other than "see Zee's points."

That's all I can offer for now, I'll be back in the game full time starting tomorrow.

[Dizzle]

@Scien - Why do you feel that China is likely town? How does his recent switch from Monkey to you affect your read on him?

@Amished - Did you ever address Monkey's "on the record" statement in ISO 52? Do you think that myself and other Monkey voters are blowing it out of proportion or do we have legitimate cause for concern?

Barring any mindblowing new info, my vote will stay on Monkey.

[Dizzle]

@Dizzle: It's pure accountability. There were signs that people were going to hop off the Raiv wagon, and there's no way anybody was going to know that Raiv would go and get himself modkilled. Scum want to try to avoid being held to a fact as much as they possibly can, and the amount of attention that MMan drew from saying that he wants his vote out there (which a lot of people do view as a good way to go about it, I rarely unvote without placing my vote somewhere else) put so much spotlight on him because of that, I don't see how scum would benefit form that.

I don't believe that the second-guessing of the Raivann wagon had begun by the time Monkey made his vote or partly explained it by his desire to be "on the record." If he thought that Raivann was going to ultimately get lynched, wouldn't he benefit from bussing his partner?

[Dizzle]

This is a bad spot. 1:35 to go... I can't self hammer if that vote count is right...

If I had any reasonable doubt about Monkey being scum, I would vote for you to ensure that we get a lynch. However, his most recent CYA statements that you referenced pretty much guarantee that my vote will remain on Monkey.

[Dizzle]

Nevermind since d3x is on Scien

[Dizzle]

why push a vote away from Scien?

Cuz he didn't want to hammer early?

[Dizzle]

why push a vote away from Scien?

Cuz he didn't want to hammer early?

Have to answer for JasonT?

He doesn't do a whole lot of answering and we're 3 minutes away from Scien self-hammering, so yes.

Looks like unless d3x changes his mind or skruffs shows up that it will be curtains for Scien.

[Dizzle]

why push a vote away from Scien?

Cuz he didn't want to hammer early?

Have to answer for JasonT?

He doesn't do a whole lot of answering and we're 3 minutes away from Scien self-hammering, so yes.

Looks like unless d3x changes his mind or skruffs shows up that it will be curtains for Scien.

[Dizzle]

So it's okay to answer for someone if you don't think they'll answer? Sounds an awful lot like coaching to me.

Again, Jason has not always been around much and the Scien's self-imposed deadline was coming up fast.

[Dizzle]

IGMEOY MM.

2 scary, glowing eyes actually.

[Dizzle]

So you still felt the need to answer for him?

As someone who offered up a more thorough defense of Monkey than he had ever produced on his own, I'm not sure you're one to talk.

[Dizzle]

@dizzle: You mean how Monkey had plenty of time to answer for himself and I said what I felt his defense said and you didn't even give Jason a chance to answer? Ok.

One last time. Jason has not been a reliable discussion participant and Scien's deadline was fast approaching.

[Dizzle]

That's the latest in a long line of MM posts which are predicated on the manipulation of what others have said.

Yep, and why he had my vote today and will again have it tomorrow.

[Dizzle]

And he couldn't answer, say... tomorrow if he wasn't around ?

The question was directly related to the Scien/Monkey vote so it was important to address it before either of them was lynched.

[Dizzle]

@Dizzle: So you know what's going through Jason's mind?

Of course not. But he did say that he wanted to "make it interesting" by not hammering Scien. That's all my post said. I don't know what relevant info you hoped to gain from Jason answering your question.

[Dizzle]

If Scien lied about flipping town, the only confusion concerning his flip has been ignited by Monkey's inane questions.

[Dizzle]

My question was why would you want to push it away from Scien (possibly I was wrong about China being paired with Scien/Raiv) and Jason was scum instead. I was hoping for an answer that could give me a clue.

What possible answer could have given you any sort of clue?

You put your scrunched bulldog nose into things and ruined it

Whoa, whoa, whoa, attacks on my personal appearance are simply uncalled for.

[Dizzle]

Didn't Monkey's 610 post cause considerable confusion and consternation?

And no, I don't expect you to list all possibly scummy answers, I'm just saying I don't think there were many scummy answers to that question.

[Dizzle]

~scum~
MonkeyMan
Skruffs
ZEEnon
Dizzle
cruelty
Amished
Chinaman
Jason
Dizzle
d3x
~town~

You actually got any content to add or are your already notably short posts now being reduced to lists?

In addition to what cruelty said, I'm on this list twice. So which is it? Am I fairly suspicious or nearly confirmed townie?

Given Monkey's questionable behavior right off the bat, I don't see my vote going anywhere else at the moment. However, I too vote for Monkey to reveal this mysterious and possibly condemning information.

@Amished - Why are you certain you were targeted? And wouldn't it have been better to reveal this once Monkey had revealed his info?

MonkeyMan...come out and plaaa-aaaay...

More "The Warriors" quotes plz.

[Dizzle]

@Dizzle: Nobody died. Unless there's a cautious vig out there (doubt it) everybody else should've killed. SK's generally *act* like a vig to set up a late game safeclaim "hey, look, i've been shooting scummy people" so I'm pretty certain that there's only 1 kill out there (scum's NK).

I guess I probably should have been able to figure that out on my own. Thanks for explaining it for those of us whose brains are not firing on all cylinders tonight.

Also, you said that Monkey's upcoming claim will be a point in his favor. But just because it's hard to pull off as scum doesn't necessarily make him town. Doesn't his immediate claim at the beginning of Day 2 feel at least a little odd?

[Dizzle]

Actually Amished, as far as you being certain you were targeted, isn't it possible that the scum chose not to kill? I randomly saw a player I had been in a past game with, I checked in the thread and they were discussing this very issue.

[Dizzle]

The point brought up in the other thread was that it's a way to possibly out the doc, which in your self-protecting case wouldn't really do them any good.

[Dizzle]

In all likelihood, you are correct. The game I saw this mentioned in was a Newbie so it's a little less of a risk of there being a cop and no risk of there being a watcher. Anyway, I came across it and thought it was at least worth throwing it out there.

[Dizzle]

Yeah, I guess given that there's a 50% chance there's a cop and only a 25% chance there's just the doc, it's probably not worth it. Either way, these newbie scenarios have nothing to do with the current game anymore and we should probably stop wasting everyone's time.

[Dizzle]

So I went back and reread the entire thread one more time. Much to my dismay, I found myself reevaluating my position on Monkey. Maybe Amished is right; with everyone claiming Manz v. Monk was town v. town that should count as some townie points for Monk. And would scum really put themselves in the spotlight so early on? Maybe myself and others exaggerated the scumminess of some of Monkey's statements, especially his "on the record" comment. And despite what my Mother tells me, I am not perfect.

Ah, but then comes Monkey's questionable behavior as the deadline approaches and passes. He never outlined a real reason for his Scien vote other than pointing to ZEE's case and some nonsense theory about Scien supposedly defending Raivann. Anyway, only after Scien promises to self-hammer if necessary does Monkey say this:

I'm also not locked on Scien, he's just the top suspect at the moment because of the Raivann connection, mostly. But I am considering the possibility this is a town vs. town argument.

Also I'd like to note I did not lead the Scien wagon, Zee did.

Pretty convenient timing, no? Once he realizes that Scien is assuredly going to be lynched, it's time to start backtracking and blaming others. I understand that Day 1 lynches are particularly tricky, but if Monkey was town shouldn't he be showing a little more confidence in his vote? Of course, if Monkey is scum, he knows Scien will flip townie and as both a Scien voter and the competing wagon all eyes will be on him.

But Monkey is not satisfied with trying to turn attention to only ZEE.

]Jason and Skruffs are going up on my scumlists.

Why? Skruffs has been MIA since last Thursday and jason has been ill with LA for weeks now. What are you getting at?

I'm getting at that I am against a no lynch and they are the main players in the way of a lynch happening.

As d3x points out, a no lynch is really not plausible at this time. Instead of only pointing fingers at one of the guys who played a large role in the Scien lynch, Monkey decides to hedge his bets by also dragging lurkers Skruffs and Jason into the mix. If 1 mislynch is good, 3 mislynches are great, right? How about 4?

why push a vote away from Scien?

Cuz he didn't want to hammer early?

Have to answer for JasonT?

He doesn't do a whole lot of answering and we're 3 minutes away from Scien self-hammering, so yes.

Looks like unless d3x changes his mind or skruffs shows up that it will be curtains for Scien.

So it's okay to answer for someone if you don't think they'll answer? Sounds an awful lot like coaching to me.

Sorry for that quintuple quote, but that's just how Monkey rolls. A nice throwaway coaching line there to implicate me as well. I realize I'll get some flak for my actions here, Amished and I think d3x have already questions them, but I still think my decision was defensible. Anyway, Monkey is now up to 4 possible Day 2 targets. Considering that there are only 9 players left for Monkey to accuse, you might think he'd stop there....wrong again! He's going for a majority with this ludicrous question:

While we still have twilight left, and assuming that Scien flips Town, what are your thoughts/reactions, Amished?

If you're assuming Scien flips town, why did you vote for him?

This isn't an outright accusation, but it was just plain inane. Maybe you had to be there. Go back and read the discussion and tell me what you think about Monkey's question. Anyway, not satisfied with a simple majority, Monkey goes for the two thirds impeachment vote and starts questioning his closest ally (Amished).

Isn't it a bit suspicious to claim self protecting doc? I mean, its a sure way to avoid being targeted at night. Self protecting doc's are pretty rare, in my experience.

Real nice. A guy goes and basically declares you a confirmed townie and you start calling him suspicious. This isn't the scummiest move ever but I just wanted to get it up to two thirds. In fact, none of the 4,5,6 accusations/questions are particularly scummy although I do find 4 (me) and 5 (d3x) to be quite ridiculous.

That's all I got on Monkey for now. If you need any more convincing, and I'm sure you will Amished, talk to cruelty or d3x about how blatantly Monkey ignores their questions. I also look forward to Monkey's 85% condemning info. I am 85% excited.

And now for some very quick other thoughts. Did Raivann strike any of you as a masterful scum? How about not mentally challenged? Me neither. Well, just kidding, but if I am wrong about Monkey I would not be surprised if Raivann actually listed his scum buddies as his probTown (China, Fuzzy). Fuzzy would deserve the most scrutiny due to Raivann's extremely early town read on him and Fuzzy's general lack of posts.

[Dizzle]

Oh yeah!! This is pretty minor and full of WIFOM but Fuzzy did say this:

Rai has unfortuantely said that he isn't having fun. As per the last rule, we're waiting for a modkill.

If Fuzzy = town, I guess it's unfortunate that the top suspect and scummiest acting player is dead before we could get any more information...but not really.

If Fuzzy = scum, he either truly believes that it is unfortunate that his scum buddy is dead. Or Fuzzy wants us to believe that he didn't know Raivann's alignment and thus would be upset that a player had modkilled himself.

Again, this practically useless but I'm in a posting mood.

[Dizzle]

p627: Dizzle, I have to disagree with you here. It was not important you answer for Jason there. At first I thought you were just butting in, but are you suggesting that you answered the question before Jason did that it was important for you to do so?

Important was probably a poor choice of words. However, with the deadline approaching I saw no reason for them to hound Jason over a pretty self-explanatory vote. Scien was minutes away from self-hammering, there was really no danger of anyone switching over to vote Monkey or of Skruffs magically appearing and voting Monkey.

[Dizzle]

Damn, I was enjoying this game. Obviously not surprised about Monkey and I definitely don't think China was "in the clear." Oh well, now we'll never know.

[Dizzle]

How could you even do it given that there are only 6 Clue characters?