Mini 855: Colorless Rainbow Town (Halted for list mod error)
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
I replaced into Inventor Mafia after you replaced out. However, I misremembered and thought that your replace-ee was scum when they weren't. Zazier was the one that was scum in that game that I pegged. Actually, your "Z" names made me confused while in that game as well.
Anyways, here's my (copied) list of people (from the OP), and my thoughts on what they should do:
cruelty - calm down, reread what monkey said after a night away, and start over. It's pretty clear that you weren't seeing what Monkey said correctly.
Dizzle - Post more, especially on your suspects. Double especially on people other than MMan.
d3x - Not too bad, other than voting for the wrong person.
Fuzzyman - post more, period. Christ.
jasonT1981 - Is he here? I'd say post more than what you have by 8, maybe 18.
Skruffs - not too bad.
MonkeyMan576 - be less emotional when posting. I see where you're coming from, but a lot of the details are being lost in translation I believe.
Scien - Hi, keep being scum.
Chinaman - {refer to Scien's comment}
ZEEnon - Hi, keep up the great work.
Clearly, Scien is scum; Chinaman is almost certainly scum as well. MMan is nothing like I've seen him as scum, and he's been under plenty of pressure in scumgames that I've been in with him. ZEEnon (other than one "read" thing concerning Raiv's ISO being different from me) has been spot on with his posts. Oh, and I think his (ZEE's) read of Scien's response to Raiv dying is wrong, but I can see where he is coming from there as well.
Hell, Chinaman's "case" against MMan in 409 should be enough to convince everyone that Chinaman is not aligned with MMan, and Chinaman isn't town in this argument.
However, Scien has more tells that he's scum, as well as more of a connection with Raiv (our only current scumflip) so he's my choice for today's lynch; as well as being on the actual somewhat-high votegetter list.
Unvote(if necessary, I don't think it is)
Vote: ScienI'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
No, my name is not "Ed."-
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
Wow, ok, gogo crossposting. I have almost 2000 words dedicated towards why Scien is scum (that counts "quote" tags and all), so I'll wait for ZEE to post before I put mine out there.
After spending ... about 40 minutes going through the game (a second/third time in some places) on Scien, I'll get to my explanations. I look for initial reactions, and all of my evidence does come from this game. Do not strawman me before I can even produce my evidence.
@China: Most games (mini) are either 2:10 mountainous (2 scum, 10 basically useless town roles/vanillas) or 3:9. As most (read: 95+% of them) shy away from mountainous as they like to try out other things/like power roles and need scum to balance out the town power. 3:9 is a very common assumption to make, that will hold true in almost all cases.
As cruelty asked first, I'll get to his request first as well. If I need/have time to go through my stance that you're scum, I will. Give it time. Preemptively attacking me when you don't even know what I have is worse than an instant OMGUS, and I can't see that response coming from a townie either.
Gogo quick posting behind me. Getting to where I feel cruelty misunderstood MMan, and where MMan tried to explain himself so I'm not putting words in MMan's mouth either.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
No, my name is not "Ed."-
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
Ok, so since I suck with URL tags, I'll just refer back to the posts that were between cruel and MMan.
MMan's post in 320 (bottom of page 13) where he stated that bringing out lurkers is pro-town; personally I agree with him.
This is only applicable where the scum have heat *on them*. At that point, China unvotes MMan and Dizzle put a vote on MMan instead. I *believe* that this is only the single vote on MMan, so there's no pressure. You saying that it's a null-tell when the scum side of your position is nullified is logically inconsistent in my opinion, and where a lot of this starts off as.cruelty in 322 wrote:If scum realises someone is lurking, it's in their best interest to draw attention to this as well - it takes the heat off them.
From there, if there isn't a scum side to your logic, it is pro-town, and most of the rest of your weak point against him is moot. Besides, even if scum are trying to bring out lurkers, if the lurker is town, it allows the rest of the town to get a read on him (likely town), allows a scumhunter a way back into the game to find them (anti-scum wincon, as they'll be lynched) and not something scum is likely to do (without pressure on them, which MMan had *ZERO* pressure on him at the time.) Scum targeting scum-lurkers to come back into the game makes it look scummy on the lurker if they're not active afterwards (anti-scum wincon); or can allow their partner to commit their own scumtells by coming back into the game (anti-scum wincon as they'll get lynched instead of a townie). With no pressure, I contend that bringing lurkers back is pro-town; and related to this is why I had to lol at China's attempt to look pro-town (I'll get to this later).
In 324, you go from it being a null-tell to being scummy. To me, it looks like you're getting emotional after accusing MMan of twisting your words.
325: MMan points out that he feels having your vote on somebody is better than withholding your vote if you think somebody is scummy, and I would have to agree with him.
326: You say that you would vote for MMan, but you won't yet (waiting for ZEEnon, somewhat understandable)
327: MMan says that since you're pressing a point and saying somebody is scummy for it without "being able" to vote for them is premature (true; if you're not willing to vote for somebody at that point, especially when you're *not voting for anybody*; it looks extremely suspicious.) Consider that, and when you said that voting for MMan would be premature and foolish, when in this post he calls your case premature and foolish. He was clearly ridiculing your stance of not voting him when you say he's scummy.
Look at this exchange in particular: A townie is suspicious of everybody. If they see somebody calling them scum, they're obviously going to go on the defensive. If they see somebody calling them scum to the point of almost voting them and not (for a weak reason, you could always switch to whoever you want to vote for later depending on results) it looks to that person (MMan in this case) like scum trying to buddy them, but still be around to vote them if a wagon builds on them.
That directly relates to your 328 question of why waiting for ZEE makes your "case" against MMan premature and weak. This also ties into you wondering how MMan's response (you questioned in 346) isn't OMGUS (as it's a reasonable townie concern) and a valid response.
Attacking a weak reason against you as *any* alignment isn't OMGUS. It's attacking a weak reason. For it to be OMGUS, it has to actually be a good point. By 360 (your vote on MMan) I don't see anything that MMan hasn't tried to answer.
At this point, you're both hopelessly tunneled on each other (you more than MMan), picking out EXTREMELY minor statements and trying to turn them scummy. You both fly off the handle and don't even listen to anything the other is saying, while also not convincing anybody else of the other's scumminess. It's a loud distraction that the scum are more than happy to let continue. (Scien and Chinaman both didn't really post in this stretch, while d3x, ZEE, Skruffs and Dizzle all chime in during this part.)
Do you see where I'm coming from?
@ZEE: I will post my analysis of Scien if you'd like now, though I think part of it might help MMan's status. It's minor if it's there.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
No, my name is not "Ed."-
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
Scien's early posts are way too aloof for a townie. ZEE also commented on this in a slightly more mysterious manner of "Scien's questioning can both be seen a pro-town and scummy" (direct quote, ISO 6). I will elaborate on *his* scumtells more if need be, but I would prefer to keep what I look for in the dark to definitively get any remaining scum. To phrase in another way: especially in the Manz vs. MMan early back and forth; I would fully expect a townie to be able to identify with one or the other in the argument. However, Scien is playing wiffleball with both of them, not taking a stance, probably waiting for one of them to make more of a slip and hop on them for that. (Skruffs, commented on this as well when he replaced in)
However, if you are worth your salt as a scumhunter (and I hope you are), you will *LOOK FOR CONNECTIONS TO OTHER SCUM*. Skruffs and ZEE both commented on this, but nobody took the time to, other than ... well.. Skruffs and ZEE it appears.
Therefore, I really point you to ZEEnon's 388. To point out the extremely good connections between Raiv and Scien, here's the relevant quotes that I 100% agree with (or come close to, if not 100%. Where I'm not 100% I will note).
This is one point where I disagree with ZEEnon. I think Raiv is well into bussing by that point, and would incriminate his partners to make himself look better if he could turn around his lynch. However, that's more against Chinaman and not Scien, so moving on:ZEEnon wrote:Raivann's Isolation Post #12:
This post makes me think Chinaman is less scummy, which may surprise you. Since Raivann was under major suspicion now at that point, I would expect more buddying up to town-aligned players, saying that he thinks they are town, while he very likely started to bus his buddies to potentially get them a better standing within the town community. In this post, Raivann calls Chinaman's post townie, which is likely due to the fact that Chinaman IS in fact town and that he wanted to buddy up to him. Just my opinion on the post, no need to feel the same way as me.
As scum, what's the *only* reason you would ask your #1 suspect if he would back you up? Scum talking to a townie that way clearly isn't going to work (and he (raiv) didn't ask the question to ZEE); but you could expect somebody *who is aligned with you* to back you up. That's a huge nail in Scien's coffin, but there's more that hasn't been looked at (to my knowledge): Scien's (and everybody's) referencing to Raiv.ZEEnon wrote:Raivann's Isolation Post #15:Raivann wrote:probscum=Zeenon,MM
Within a span of, wait for it, ONE post, he completely turns around from naming me as his top suspect, to voting Scien. Just like I stated in my analysis of Raivann's Isolation Post #12, I think this is the time that Raivann would DEFINITELY start to bus as mafia, since he had at least half of the players suspecting him majorly. The fact that he just names Scien as a suspect and votes him just from one post Scien made is extremely suspicious to me, making Scien pop onto my radar immediately after seeing Raivann flip scum.Raivann wrote:I support either a Scien or Zeenon lynch.
Vote:Scien
Raivann's Isolation Post #17:
This post of Raivann's just makes me laugh. Like seriously! What goes on in this guy's head?"I'm going to ask my number one suspect if he wants to switch with me to my number two suspect!"To be honest, "Would you support a Zeenon lynch, Scien?" makes me feel even stronger conviction that Scien is mafia. Sure, you might argue that scum wouldn't be that obvious about their partners. But then again you would also argue that scum wouldn't be obvious about themselves, but clearly Raivann contradicts that statement since he obvious to the extreme.
That's it for the Raivann post-by-post analysis, stay tuned for more!
Here's the significant quotes, and where I got them from:
ISO 12: Scien says that Raivs "fuzzy = town" scumslip makes sense, but said slip is the first reason why Scien votes for Raiv. This is all in the same post, which makes it especially damning in my eyes.
ISO 14:
Huge coaching in this post. Leaves himself an out in case Raiv does what Scien views Raiv *should* be doing to get himself out of a lynch.Scien wrote:One, there are other points against you, and your brevity is not helping.
Two, how the heck is giving town reads on players protown?
Anyone can do it. Also scum committing to lying saying they have scum tells on someone is typically more dangerous for them to do than telling us they have town tells on people... its easy to find new 'scummy' stuff to change the scum's mind later and pursue a townie they said was town earlier...
However irritating a townie by weakly pursuing them earlier using 'scum tells' is going to catch them attention, from the very least their target.
I don't get why you think that giving town reads is protown... How so?
ISO 15
Gives Raiv more wiggle room to do what Scien wanted Raiv to do to appear pro-town. Also gives Scien a way to unvote Raiv at a moments notice. Bolded is *huge* coaching, telling Raiv exactly what not to do. Scien commenting on this being scummy, but not having it solidify his read on Raiv is damning as well. (Also, Raiv and Scien were in a game together, in which I also was (town). Scien scum in that game, Raiv newb-town. They have a repertoire with each other, I can def. see Raiv looking to Scien for help if needed)Scien wrote:Ok. I'll give you a chance to reread. My vote stays until I start doubting my read though. As for your link, I'll give 'er a read tomorrow. As it stands currently, I still think it is a bad idea to ask for townie lists... One question in the meantime though. If you think its a good idea, is the only thing holding you back the fact that you haven't responded to Monkey yet? Or are you withholding for other reasons?
As it stands at the moment... I think that your views on people suspecting you are negative... and your views on the people saying they might not suspect you are positive. Don't know what to think about that...
(Fuzzy points elsewhere... You think this is townie.
D3x points you... you think scum.
Chinaman unvotes you... you think townie.)
ISO 18
This is him trying to reword what Raiv said into a more pro-town standpoint. Skruffs caught it and questioned him on it, while I missed it initially. Town-Scien doesn't need to make anybody logical, needs to look at what was said and ask questions if it's not understood.Scien wrote:Okay... I have not been on him because that was an obvious miswording. I don't even understand how someone can be both townie AND scummy... and naturally assumed that this was not his intended meaning. How can someone be both?
I'm not deliberately trying to defend him here, I am trying to defend myself, but I am making an assumption about what he meant by that phrase. I think he was trying to say that my questioning was inherently neither pro-town nor pro-scum and suggest that he had not made up his mind on me yet. In other words, he screwed up the conjunction, he meant OR, not AND. By me making this assumption that he misworded when he made that statement, I guess I don't see what I should be concerned about. What does him using 'and' imply?
{BTW: ISO 22 (it's all you really need to read) is another reason why I believe Scien to be scum all on his own. Skruffs questions are excellent, and Sciens answers are less than stellar}
ISO 24
First, Raiv is under severe pressure at this point, and I believe his (Raivs) question to Scien is part of Raiv's attempt to buss Scien. Also, if you believe in scum slips of the tongue, the bolded is classic.Scien wrote:
I believe them. I want to discuss them with you. I was trying to give you some time for you to catch up.Raivann wrote:This does read like scum hopping on a wagon to me. Sure he has posted his reasons but it reads like he doesn't really believe them.
Would you like to address some of my and the town's concerns here?Here are mine, I think the rest of the town was just harping on one though:
ISO 27 is ridiculous. Seriously. I shouldn't need to quote any more than that, but I'll keep going. If that's not trying to make Raiv appear pro-town, I don't know what is. If you can see a town motivation for making somebody so scummy look townie, please enlighten me.
ISO 34
First question (by Scien): hoping that he'll get out of it with just a scum modkill and not have to worry about looking townie for the remainder of the day, and possibly dealing with another scumlynch, after how much Raiv connected himself with you. Second question (by Scien): Scien was unhappy about Raiv getting killed, but still voting for him. With the recent FoS to ZEEnon, why keep a vote on Raiv (that got to L-1, L-2 for SURE) if Scien didn't want to see him dead? After that much pressure and a wagon progressing that far, everybody voting for him should want him lynched at that point. To "not be happy" about it is an utterly ridiculous statement and also pegs Scien as scum.Scien wrote:Woah. Number one, would that end the day?
Number two, do I detect a whiff that you are happy about this?
BTW I was aware of the rule. I was hoping it would be ignored... and he would play.
At this point, Raiv was modkilled, and obviously back and forth ceased.
*deep breath*
Ok.
And there we go! I think how long any suspicion on anybody has taken so long is a big factor as to how ZEEnon's doubting himself (and I definitely know that feeling as well.) I do *not* understand any votes on MMan beyond cruelty's. China hopping on the bandwagon certainly doesn't improve my view of him.
Finally, done with a synopsis, and I can get to asking specific questions:
@Fuzzy: Why do you think ZEEnon is scum? (if you don't see why I'm asking you this, refer to your last point in 402)
@China: Who is your 2nd suspect and why?
@Dizzle: Why do you feel ZEEnon and MMan are paired? (First line of 401)
@d3x: Have you ever missed part of a post by anybody?
@Jason: Looking forward to your extended posting tomorrow, you haven't given me a lot to work with yet.
@Skruffs: How do you react to how I view your points as valid, as well as my painting of MMan as town?
@ZEEnon: What of China did you see that makes you think he's town?
@Scien: Well, there's plenty here for you to comment on, I'll not bother you with more questions. Not that I particularly care, I don't think there's an answer you can give that would make me change my mind on you.
I'm missing somebody, I think. 11 left, 10 others. Dizzle (check), d3x (check), cruelty.. Ah, this is covered in my post to him about his exchange with MMan, so (check), China (check), ZEEnon (check), MMan.. Oops, that's where my other miss was.
@Monkey: You've slowly come to a Scien vote after thinking Scien and Raiv were paired (and then fallen away from it). What made you think that they weren't paired after Raiv came up positive for scum?I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
No, my name is not "Ed."-
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
(First off, I love pre-game, it's so boring that I can do this while having that on in the background. Secondly, I apologize for the triple post, but this is something that I promised I would post.)
Ok, so in my notes, my points against China are thus: Post 181/191, 215, 285 and 288. I also have to lol at his attempts in 336 and 374. All bolding will be mine.
and then compare that sentiment to this:Chinaman in 181 wrote:So far I have a pretty much null read on everyone. I honestly believe that the argument between MM and Manz was town vs town.I got the feeling there were exaggerations in both arguments and it is my opinion that scum would tend to avoid a huge confrontation like that at the very beginning of a game. I of course could be totally wrong here, but if either one were scum, they put themselves in the spotlight far too much with their back and forth.What I will be doing when I go back through is looking for those who tried to fuel the fire without jumping in too hard themselves.Anyway, that's all I got thus far and I hope to catch up soon.
First off, with so many people saying that MMan vs. Manz/Skruffs is town vs. town, I'm 95% certain that it is, and scum are playing the angle of townies that feel confident that their town reads are correct. This is a major point that I feel makes MMan more clear than anything else I have that can point to, other than I understand where he's coming from had I been in his position. I wouldn't have said some of the things he's said, but as I can see his point of view, I'm more confident that he's town as well.Chinaman wrote:Anyway, like I said, I made it through and am pretty much current. Not being involved in the first 7 pages of discussion, it's hard to get as good a read on anyone as of yet. I am going to re-read, and come back with some questions and comments.My predecessor made one post and that was an RVS vote on the now current bandwagon. I do not yet know how I feel about him, but I have read some good points made by you all about some scummy things he's doing. In my first read through, I had to agree with most of the points on him, but as I haven't had a chance to ask him any questions or come up with a solid argument for why I am on the wagon, I must UNVOTE till I feel that the vote on him is from me and not left over from Sweep.
Second point: Skruffs pointed out that Scien was trying to fuel the flames (which I found particularly poignant in this case) and China didn't see that Scien was doing exactly what China said he was going to look for. No town motivation for this, and in the space of 10 posts (an hour and a half) it's highly unlikely that his mind would've changed that quickly about what he was going to look for. This alone is enough for me to vote for both of them.
Moving on
Epic strawman. EPIC.Chinaman in 215 wrote:MM wrote:I've already explained I want my vote to be on the record, I'm guessing scum on Raivann at this point and to not vote would be anti-town. I think there's a good chance Raivann could eventually be lynched and I'd rather vote now than give scum the opportunity to vote at L-1. If people have a problem with my vote, I'll unvote if they are worried about a scum lynch.So does that mean if a scum gets lynched and there are 3 people on on the wagon, are those 3 people your next top suspects since them not being on the wagon is "anti-town"?Also, I don't like that you are worried about what other people think of your vote. It's not the vote people were attacking...it's you basically holding up a big neon sign saying "Hey guys, for the record, I voted for scum!!" That's what is bothering people including myself. The fact that you want to "make others happy" by removing your vote if they say to do so also bothers me. If you think he's scum, who cares what others think about your vote? It's supposed to be your opinion. If it bites you in the ass later, well, it bites you in the ass. Only scum truely care about how they look in others eyes. Town care about finding and lynching scum. So yeah, the above questions to be answered please.
First, it's necessary to understand the circumstances around these posts. Scien was slowly trying to turn the tide against Raiv, and was moderately successful before the modkill (which I would've thought would end the day, but this works better for me); but to do so, there had to be an alternate wagon for people to look at. Here comes China!Chinaman in 285 wrote:
His VERY NEXT postMM wrote:I appreciate Scien giving Raivann a chance, but he's agreeing with some stuff that is clearly scummy. Saying that the Manzcar discussion was "boring", possibly trying to derail the Wagon with a Zeenon wagon, giving Raivann "town points" for defending himself better, when he is clearly still behind on town points overall. It's like saying someone is a good baseball player for batting .240, because he was batting .180 before. I'm questioning the logic here, and the possibility of a Raivann/Scien scum team.MM wrote:Well, I'm still suspicious of the buddying, although I agree Raivann might be bad town rather than scum. It's hard to tell at this point.Talk about your flip-flop! That sounds like scum trying to cover their mislynching azz.Or am I just crazy? Hell, the only post in between those two post was from Scien.
I don't like this play from MM at all. First off, I'm getting a town read from Scien at this point. Secondly, his is the only post in between the first quoted post from MM and the second. This is pretty much a scumslip in my eyes. Going to go back now and take a nice long look at MM. Before you go saying, "what, are we not aloud to change our minds" or some other similar post, note thatScien wrote: (quote snipped)I already explained why this wouldn't be ok (it's too quick in case you missed my above points). The other reason this wouldn't be ok, is because you didn't explain at all why you had such the sudden change of heart. Going from full throttle lynch someone to maybe they are town so quick just reeks of scum.
Also note: You say there is a possible scien/raivann team in one post then take Scien's explanation at face value the next? I don't even need to go back on you in order to VOTE: MonkeyMan....I am still going to though.
Ok, first bolded: Clearly that was not the case, and the extreme way that it was phrased is a clear appeal to fear (of mislynching). With China most likely feeling that MMan could compete with (and overtake) Raiv with his "case" against MMan; he could get MMan lynched, coach Raiv so as not to get lynched during the night, and never know about a mislynch.
Second bolded: Every scummer has had doubts at some point during their career about a lynch. I've been confident and they turn up town, confident and they turn up scum, very unsure and they turn up scum, unsure with town, and fully against both town and scum wagons. Second guessing yourself, especially in the venue of forum mafia is 100% natural. MMan keeping his vote on Raiv while examining his reasons for it is 100% natural, and something I can definitely see coming from town rather than scum. In this case, I would expect scum to *either* push more on a Raiv lynch and then later claim to be a big proponent of the lynch, or distance mightily and go under the guise of trying not to tunnel on the #1 scumspect (even though China is tunneling on MMan).
While you may never listen to those you suspect (since apparently you're never wrong?) there's plenty of town motivation to try to allow people you're suspicious of to clear themselves or dig themselves a bigger hole. Why else do suspects change from day to day? Cause *townies* often look at different things, and gauge how scummy those actions look. If nobody was willing to change their mind, how many lynches do you really think would occur? You pressing this obviously scummy outlook is another rather clear sign that you're scum as well.Chinaman wrote:I would like you to explain how you can say "I'm questioning the logic here, and the possibility of a Raivann/Scien scum team. " then suddenly Scien (someone you just got done calling scum-mate with Raivann) makes some "good points" and all a sudden....
I think it's scummy. Hence my post. And I already told you that a simple post like the one you just posted was not gonna be a good enough explanation for me. Seriously...read the end of my post...I'll even re-post it for you.
I wrote: Before you go saying, "what, are we not aloud to change our minds"or some other similar post, note that I already explained why this wouldn't be ok (it's too quick in case you missed my above points).It's not adding up. I don't see how you say there's a possible team then take one of the persons on that team's post and say it had good points. If you thought there was a possible team, why would you even consider one of those people on that team that their post would be good advise or points? Shouldn't you take it with a large grain of salt? You would if you were town.
Ok, on to what I had to lol at. 322 (where cruelty and MMan start to go after "lurkers are anti-town, what is prodding lurkers then?") has MMan saying that prodding lurkers is pro-town. in 336 China goes off and pokes d3x and Jason for lurking as well. I view this as a bad attempt to do something that at the very least a null-tell (according to cruel) all the way to pro-town (according to MMan).
Normally, I would've let this go, but china's post 374 shows a pattern for me. Skruffs in 364 (same page, page 15) says that the flip should be huge for everybody, to go back and look for connections because that's what somebody pro-town would do (essentially). 374 has China going back to do exactly that; in what I would classify as a blatant attempt to look good in the players of a pro-town player.
Finally:
This section bothers me the most. MMan voted for ZEEnon for *lurking*. ZEE explained that he didn't have access, and would post. That was the point of MMan's vote. With his stance that lurkers are scummy/anti-town; this makes perfect sense for him to vote for a lurker, and retract this after said person promises to post. It's not about suspicion, and your characterization of it as such is rather blatant scum. Also, with Skruffs post (and your 374 that I had to lol at); you have direct evidence from *this game* that a scum flip can cause plenty of connections, but (and I might not see it here) China didn't even try to explain how Raiv's actions tie into MMan. Then you say that a scum flip says nothing about the rest of the game? Bull****. You're scum, as well as Scien, and this post has probably 5x more than needed for me to vote you instantly too.Chinaman in 409 wrote:MM: Cruelty is entirely right in the fact it is not crazy scummy to be suspicious of you and someone you are suspicious of. I hadn't really thought too much about what other roles might be out there, but if he is taking that into consideration, his suspicion of you and someone you are suspicious of makes sense if there are other non-town roles. Would you agree? Also, you unvote and FoS: Scien. I'm assuming this is mainly due to ZEE's ISO post. Then you later Vote him. Here's my problem with this....you unvoted ZEE and then picked up his top suspect on one post from him. He didn't answer any questions you and others had for him, but you unvote him based on his scumhunt? What if you were right and he was scum?! Would anything in his ISO be worth a dump in the toilet? Anything at all? It doesn't sit right with me.It's opportunistic to switch back and forth so freely. Also, the fact that he put you at the top of his town list makes it look a little like buddying to me. He's the only one who's said your actions are towny, and tbh, I can't tell where he's getting it from. Let's look at what has stood out about you as I see it:I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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Bolded are my answers
As d3x correctly pointed out, deadline is tomorrow and we need a lynch. MMan at 4 (which I 100% do not agree with) and Scien at 3 are probably our top two choices.cruelty wrote:
Why?Amished wrote: if you're not willing to vote for somebody at that point, especially when you're *not voting for anybody*; it looks extremely suspicious
Because if you're willing to make a case against somebody, and don't vote them it looks extremely like buddying. In the meantime, after your case against them (while you wait) you can bring up something else and vote for that instead of your case. You put "pressure" on them without putting them in danger of a lynch, and if they flip scum, you can go back and point to the fact that you had a case on them before anybody else. Why wouldn't it be scummy to not vote who you're putting a case together on?
I'd end up at the same place eventually regardless.Amished wrote:you could always switch to whoever you want to vote for later depending on results
Not necessarily (see above)
Again, why? Surely it is in the best interest of scum to provide town with a legitimate target regardless of whether or not they themselves are currently under suspicion? Distracting town from scumhunting active players through what you're calling pro-town concerns with lurkers is hugely beneficial regardless of what's happening in-game. Strongly disagree with you here.Amished wrote:
This is only applicable where the scum have heat *on them*cruelty wrote: If scum realises someone is lurking, it's in their best interest to draw attention to this as well - it takes the heat off them.
I thought I went through why this could be very harmful as scum. If the lurker is a scumbuddy, you're unnecessarily drawing attention to your partner if the town is on a townie (pretty obvious) and I've seen plenty of lurkers come back and look incredibly townie, making them a threat to the scum by reducing the number of suspects and possibly allowing the previous lurker to get a read on scum and peg them as such.
Yes, the lurker could become a town lynch, but often times unless there's enough people committed to a lurker lynch (very rarely the case) you'll just be bringing in somebody that could turn the table on a potential no-lynch while at the very least you're promoting activity, which is strictly anti-scum.
No I didn't. I don't think pointing out lurkers is pro-town, because it benefits both town and scum. I think claiming that oneself is pro-town is scummy; this should really be apparent through ones actions.Amished wrote:In 324, you go from it being a null-tell to being scummy.
Heh, you should see my latest newbie game. Raivann was there, and proclaimed himself obvtown all through the day, when he was a vanilla townie. I thought the same thing that you did, as town, and luckily we ended up finding the scum despite my best efforts to get him lynched.
Uh, not really. Attacking someone because they attacked you is OMGUS. The actual quality of the attack is really irrelevant (as long as the attack is legitimate, weak case or not).Amished wrote:For it to be OMGUS, it has to actually be a good point.
I see what you're saying, I just don't really agree with you. I think MM has been behaving strangely (scummy), and I don't think he's as pro-town as he (and you) would have the rest of us believe.
Ok, put somebody else in a hypothetical situation attacking you. They have an extremely weak point (say they're seriously voting you and advocating your lynch through you not placing a random vote in the RVS.) Would you not attack them for something so weak? Is it still scummy OMGUS? Or are you just defending yourself as town?
Right now, you better have your vote on one or the other. A no-lynch is absolutely the worst possible play right now.
Fuzzy, you stop waiting for ZEE to post and post something of your own or I'll not stop attacking you til you're lynched.
Skruffs, Jason, we need you both around.
Cruel, China, d3x, I want you to comment on my defense of MMan, tell me if it sways you at all, why, and if you agree or disagree on my view of Scien.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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@China: I felt he was being wagoned for weak and irrational reasons. I'm not sold on cruel yet, but I'm leaning more towards town for him, and I see townies tunnel more often than scum (though I have seen scum tunnel, this doesn't look like that occurance). I remember pushing a weak as hell case on another townie back in the day, and got NK'd for WIFOM purposes while allowing the scum to sit back and get a perfect victory out of it. So while I see detrimental effects to cruel's tunneling, I don't see the hallmarks of scum play in his tunneling and I wanted him to calm down and look at it with a new view (look to my first "suggestion" to him). It's definitely not a precase on him, as I think Scien will flip scum, and there will be more information there to make a case instead of going off of a non-flip.Chinaman wrote:@Amished: You asked those of us on MM's wagon to give you thoughts on your defense of MM. First off, why do you feel the need to defend MM? Secondly, I felt overall that the post was almost more of a pre-case on cruelty than a defense of MM. Thirdly I don't see why some of your points would make someone more town. If anything pointing them out is a null tell as anyone could google a list of pro-town mafia-scum tells and list them as the opportunity arises. Things like:
-MMan's post in 320 (bottom of page 13) where he stated that bringing out lurkers is pro-town; personally I agree with him.
-325: MMan points out that he feels having your vote on somebody is better than withholding your vote if you think somebody is scummy, and I would have to agree with him.
Also, you didn't address some of my main concerns with MM. Things like him putting tags on his posts saying what he is doing it a pro-town action. Also, your second post in game was "Heh, thinking back, I've seen all three as scum, Monkey twice as scum. Good deal. Page 8". This was referring to you looking at the top suspects only due to just joining the game and being close to deadline. Did the few things you posted in MM's defense take away the initial read you had on MM?
I addressed my thoughts on your scien case.
To your third point in your opening paragraph (don't see why it's pro-town): Ignore him pointing it out. Town can do it too. I feel it's bad play on both sides, but it's irrelevant. You see the actions as pro-town, so they should be, right? You said that him stating it is a null-tell, why wouldn't they be pro-town for you?
Before I completed my readthrough, I wanted everyone to know that I've seen Scien as scum, Monkeyman as scum twice. I pegged them in all three of those situations, so I kinda know how they play (doubly so MMan) as scum. When I didn't see his scumslips that have trapped him before, there were two possiblities: either he smarted up as scum, or he's town. As I could see where he was coming from (especially with the very early looking for scum roles.)
Finally, to my points for you.
So, you unvoted, 12 hours to deadline. Do you think not voting again (when you've said that my points make a lot of sense) will help with a deadline lynch? At this point, I honestly don't even care if people don't read the thread and vote for one of them while flipping a coin. We *need* a lynch and withholding your vote while being around early is bad.
Also, the parts where I had to "lol" was at your posts. Yes, the action is pro-town. However, why didn't you do those actions sooner? The only reason I can see is that you're scum, not doing much to advance the game, and when various people say something is pro-town you jump on it and say to yourself "Oh, this will help my status with these people for doing something they said was pro-town after the fact". You doing this once probably wouldn't have drawn a comment from me, but the fact that you did it twice in the space of ... 3-4 pages? is extremely suspect.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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I think it's only a little over 7 to deadline.
Waiting this close to vote (if people actually come around) is cutting it close. I try for a lynch just a couple days before (depending on the day) as it gives the most time, while still being able to scrutinize votes "at deadline" without actually having it loom over our freaking heads.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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Not really. Typically self-voting is an extreme scumtell (townies voting for only the people that they *know* are town does not follow at all) but a no-lynch is bad enough for a townie to be able to.
I refer you to the "Being a good IC" wiki page (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... _a_good_IC) and go to the self-voting/hammering. I think it's been changed since I've been here, but the only time an IC *could* self-hammer (and not get barred from being an IC ever again) is to avoid a no-lynch.
I've self-hammered as scum well before the deadline to stifle discussion, but as this point it's kinda moot.
In this circumstance (IMO): null-tell.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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As town: He's providing where his suspicions lie while working on catching up. Shows an extraordinary amount of devotion (which is extremely rare). The hitch is that town don't want themselves to be lynched, so his vote on the competing wagon (while not particularly agreeing with it) is natural and logical. Realizes that if lynched, he wants his suspicions out there as eloquently as possible for tomorrow after the mislynch and NK.
As scum: We've already discussed scum trying to buss their partners when under pressure, and honestly it's in the best interests of scum to create confusion if possible to throw the rest of the town off track. There's one quote in here that makes me feel that this is the option that is happening, so I'm not particularly paying attention to Scien's posts, but I will overnight after the reveal if we're wrong.
Looking for his quote now, I've seen it today. BBS.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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This was the entire quote.Scien in 491 wrote:We have time... let me catch up...
If only for the value of my comments before I flip.
The reason this tripped my senses is that as VT (which he claimed, I wasn't expecting otherwise tbh) his opinions and viewpoints are no more valid than the rest of ours. His comments wouldn't really affect much as he's as much in the dark as we are, and without really seeing his point of view it'd be hard to base anything on what he's said (and basic human psychology, we always believe our point to be more important than anybody else's). So after a VT flip, we really wouldn't look at what he's said as he won't be NK'd (he's under too much pressure and almost getting to a lynch; scum def. want to keep him around, not going to assume more than 1 killing role yet).
As scum, though: the value of his comments are to throw us red herrings, possibly with a bit of truth in there to help his partner out the most he can. He knows that when he flips scum, we'll look for connections in his comments. That's where true value would lie for him.
Also, one other thing smelled fishy to me: He unvotes ZEEnon for
while then going on to make sure that he's questioned for his activities (casting him {ZEEnon} in a negative light, and is subtle enough to not be picked up on right away, while after closer scrutiny it would be).Scien in 504 wrote:Oh, and Unvote since you addressed my questions, and I don't really find you scummy I suppose.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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Ok, I'll give you {Scien, everybody} a brief synopsis of the point that I'm addressing, and answer it (this is all from 514):
Ok, so a townie thinks both sides are wrong. Wouldn't the initial "wrong" if continued be a scumtell for them? They're the one making the false accusation and not backing down on it. Regardless, one or the other person is going to make *more* sense than the other; leading them to take sides. You will never see a debate that's exactly even if you think both sides are wrong for arguing, one or the other will make a better point and you will see that and go with it over the other guy. If you can point out a town vs. town argument where both sides are wrong (at the heart of the issue, not just calling each other scum which is obviously wrong) that you don't agree with one person more than the other, I'll retract my whole case against you. Besides, if you thought both sides were wrong, you'd intervene and tell them so instead of asking them questions about it and letting it continue.
{connections to dead scum} I don't exactly understand your question here? Can you form connections between two townies? Yes. If one flips VT, then you know that they could just be on the same wavelength, but there's no game-oriented partnering there, other than scum buddying. If there's a cop buddying to a person, and the cop dies, then you can basically know that the cop has an innocent on said person. That's the point of scum buddying, to form false connections between them and townies to mask their real connections. The real connections are still there, but I will admit to seeing the false connections at times. I haven't seen enough *really solid* play from Raiv to believe that he'd be as subtle about it as opposed to a Tar, PJ, Adel, or any other known good scumhunter you have come across.
{Raiv leaving a growing wagon to buss a scumpartner} I think you said the reason why this is unlikely in your question. It's a growing wagon. Also, I want to point to the exclusivity of his {Raiv's} question. Raiv asked you {scien} if you would support him. He named you {scien} as a top suspect and voted for you. Then he switches 100% to ask if you would vote for somebody he's suspicious of, when you had your vote on him as well (thank you for admitting your mistake that you were on Raiv at the time). A townie wouldn't ask somebody who's voting for them (because they're scummy) to vote with them on another lynch to save the ass of the scummy "townie"; they'd ask their partner because they'd expect you {Scien} to back them up. Raiv also didn't ask ZEE either, he asked you. Why not ask both of you? That's the point I'm making here.
{getting him to talk was paramount} You've stated this twice. so it's clearly a big deal in your interactions with Raiv. You also state that you kinda had to baby him along to answer your questions. I don't (and didn't) see a need to baby him. Good cop/bad cop isn't going to work in a forum setting. You can ask very specific questions til he answers the way you want, you don't need to help him along.
(When you refer to my ISO 14, obviously I don't agree since I think it was scummy of you. If I thought it was pro-town of you, I wouldn't have brought it up in a case against you).
{coaching when using a vote} I can't disagree more with you here. A vote is a way to express that you think they're scum (or need to post for being anti-town, which is almost the same thing). Coaching is telling them what they've done wrong and what they need to explain while giving them time to do so (being polite). A vote (in my book, I don't often vote for lurkers) is telling said person to die because they've acted scummy. I view this is why a vote becomes more powerful the longer a game goes on, and I don't often cast votes without valid reason. I see voting for somebody as an hostile act. To be hostile and vote, then to be nice and tell them "oh, here's what I find suspicious, could you get to that when you have a moment" (heavily paraphrased, but the feeling I get with the post I accused you of coaching in) shows a dichotomy that isn't easily explained from a townie perspective.
{quote about miswording/making look more pro-town} Ahh, that makes more sense. Point retracted, I thought the 2nd paragraph was concerning Raiv's "fuzzy = town" misspeak.
{ISO 22; skruffs good questions, sciens "bad" answers} Skruffs asks very pointed answers, and your questions sound like "ooh, I dunno, probably because of this, but I don't want to sound too harsh to draw more criticism from you {skruffs}" Every response from you there sounded like you were pillowfighting to not look like you were being too hard on anybody, or trying to use a misunderstanding in some way. Skruffs questions were direct, to the point, and asked exactly what he wanted to ask. That's why his questions were good.
Also on the ISO 22 point: your breakdown of skruff's post in the middle looked a lot like Mastin as scum. Line by line is extremely ineffective, and allowed you to dodge a point of skruffs (IMO). Also, your ridiculing of Skruffs position on you by saying you're alike to both ask questions is antagonistic, while also belittling all of his concerns towards you into one argument that is weak. From here out, you get a lot more offensive *towards* skruffs, and your change of heart during the post looks like you've found a new target to try to mislynch.
{Town "slip"} You're right, I do know that, and it's not the crux of my argument/point in that spot. I know some people put a lot of weight on slips of the tongue, and I'm pointing out where you might've done just that. I personally don't take much stock in them, but some do. Also, by focusing on the slip part and not the Raiv bussing you part, makes me think I'm right about this as well.
{ISO 34, question about modkill + ending the day} I state that you'd be more likely to ask if a modkill would end the day as scum than town. Town would relish the chance to not lose a lynch, get a scum dead and look for connections with dead scum. Scum would see the connections with the dead partner and want to end it immediately to lick their wounds, stop discussion and use their NK to hopefully steer away from the partner, or use the time to plan with each other and work on a false connection.
{ISO 34 cont. Happy/unhappy} Read your "Number two, do I detect a whiff that you are happy about this? " question with the emphasis on "happy". Or just ask your question with "this" substituted with the actual scenario: "Number two, do I detect a whiff that you are happy about (scum getting modkilled and allowing us to look for connections)?
First off, you should be extremely happy, and the way you phrased your question sounds like you're asking them why they're happy about it (when it should be obvious). Secondly, it's like a free day-vig. You kill the person you think is most scummy, and you're happy about it either way. If scum, yay! If town, well, there's the biggest distraction gone, but we can still talk about reactions to the scummy person and who made the weakest case on them, etc. It's actually an extremely powerful tool, and one that you should have been happy about either way, regardless of alignment, especially if your vote was on him (and he was at L-2? or something close to there).I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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slow ninja'd:
I thought you would play more cautiously as PR. Your play as a whole didn't look like somebody who had anything more to play for (night action, etc..) I look at my serious subjects in that light to evaluate fake claims that might come up in deadline situations.
Otherwise I think you're either misinterpreting or misrepresenting the point I was trying to make. As VT, you know nothing is concrete (which was conceded), and that's it. Then you would know that your responses don't really have a value, and we have to interrogate the reasons behind your lynch ourselves, as we can't continue on your track as we have no idea where you were going in the first place. Value signals that there's something more there that's not being revealed.
Side note: It's not always prudent to ignore the possibilities of day actions. I've been in a game where there was a guy with a day action that came out on D1.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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{MM vs. M fight} But you already said that both were stretching like town. You've now altered your stance to "waiting to see if the already bad logic got worse". How much worse could it have gotten for you to step in? GAH
{connections to dead scum} RAIV. IS. DEAD. Look for connections to him. That's why I went through his iso, saw ZEEnon's posts *about Raiv's ISO* right after that and focused on you for having such a connection to him.
{ISO 14/babying/coaching} The way you rephrased your questions made it pretty obvious what you were looking for in an answer. That's what I mean by coaching, and the way you worded them wasn't something that'd stick out and get a response from my POV.
{line by line/mastin related/"attack" of skruffs} You've played with Mastin though, this much I know. I'm referring to the way he takes each line, and then takes them out of context at times, especially as scum (well, the way I saw him he was scum fakeclaiming cop with a guilty so =\). I believe it was point #3 that made sense when you took it with the rest of the paragraph, but you went "WAHH? That doesn't make sense!" (paraphrased) when it did. This looked intentional, and dodging a question that you clearly saw.
Look at that post. Early on, you were soft with Skruffs, but by the end of the post you were getting more and more abrasive with your responses. This looks like an attempt to eventually set up a way to attack skruffs later down the road (and looked a little OMGUSy, but that's my POV again. I encourage everyone to read ISO 22 and see if you see what I'm saying.)
{Raivann modkill/flip/continuation}The whole affair after Raivann was modkilled looked staged and extremely cheesy. As long as the thread isn't closed, I can post is my take on things (and alive, of course). Your {Scien} reactions looked the most staged out of all of them, and there's no need for staging unless you already knew the outcome of the flip.
Regarding dayvigs (or vigs in general): They're there to get rid of scummy players that the town doesn't have enough lynches for. To do this during a day has been argued to be much more accurate than during the night (irrelevant to this discussion) but one of the points is that during the day, people have time to talk about the flip after the death, without NKs to stifle discussion. That's how I'm viewing this particular modkill, like an accurate dayvig. I love dayvigs. I should really put them in all my games, but I need to finishing modding *a* game first, then I can have fun.
As such, I'm happy about a dayvig in this scenario, and here's why: Raiv was clearly the scummiest player active. Vigging him (if scum) is obviously beneficial as he's scum, and then everyone can go back and look for connections without a NK. Vigging him (if town) allows us to be rid of a distraction (I saw a sig once: we lynch him and he's {Zwet} scum, and yay, we got scum; otherwise: yay, we got zwet!) which is extremely similar to this scenario. We get to all analyze a large wagon on a townie, and look to see who was overly opportunistic on the wagon. And then we have a chance to lynch those scummiest for it as well. Both scenarios are extremely pro-town. That's why you should be happy with said flip, regardless of alignment.
Finally, I'd like to note the feeling I've gotten that the more I argue/back and forth with Scien, the further we're getting from my original points, which is extremely unsettling. I don't like this feeling at all, and I understand how I'd feel it from accusing scum, I don't if Scien flips town.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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@Dizzle: It's pure accountability. There were signs that people were going to hop off the Raiv wagon, and there's no way anybody was going to know that Raiv would go and get himself modkilled. Scum want to try to avoid being held to a fact as much as they possibly can, and the amount of attention that MMan drew from saying that he wants his vote out there (which a lot of people do view as a good way to go about it, I rarely unvote without placing my vote somewhere else) put so much spotlight on him because of that, I don't see how scum would benefit form that.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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@Scien: The final "point" is that this feeling is really weird, and something I would classify as scummy as well.
Also, I have to lol at your initial responses (mman/manz is tvt; along with all your reasoning for it) and then MMan is 2nd at your scumlist just due to you feeling you need to back up your vote on him rather than the understandable me vs. him reason.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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1) Your last post was 2 days ago saying you've been getting caught up (are you?)jasonT1981 wrote:Sorry Monkey, I have been in hospital yet again and only out.. I am in rehab for a few injuries and ended up ripping a muscle in my leg, which ironically was not my bad leg so now I have to walk with pressure on my origionally bad leg.
but lets make the deadline interesting eh?
vote: Monkeyman
I said in my last post I felt he was scum.
2) You didn't say that you thought Monkey is scum. You said you were unsure. Quoted here:
Why lie, and why push a vote away from Scien?jasonT1981 wrote:gonna try my best to get caught up again, I am a few pages behind, still in and out of hospital and drugged up at the best of times, all while trying to play more than one game.
but still am not sure on Monkey, Hopefully a catch up will make my mind up fully.
Hopefully by tomorrow afternoon I will be caught up again.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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Amished Mafia Scum
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- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
*ping*d3x wrote:Well, one thing's for damn sure. Tomorrow is going to have a hell of a lot of information to go over.
Anyways:
@Jason: your long post that you referenced was 12 days ago. To put that in context: Raivann was STILL ALIVE. Nothing that's happened or that you've seen catching up swayed your opinion on either of them?
You did lie by stating that your last post had your opinion that Monkey was scum. You said you couldn't get a read on him, yet now you vote for him?I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
No, my name is not "Ed."-
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
@Jason: it must be a northern ireland thing, but where I come from not sure means you have no idea (i.e. you're not sure one way or the other). That's where I got your lie comment from.
Also, did you see Raiv distancing himself from MMan to solidify your vote? Where?I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
No, my name is not "Ed."-
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
And he couldn't answer, say... tomorrow if he wasn't around ?Dizzle wrote:
One last time. Jason has not been a reliable discussion participant and Scien's deadline was fast approaching.Amished wrote:@dizzle: You mean how Monkey had plenty of time to answer for himself and I said what I felt his defense said and you didn't even give Jason a chance to answer? Ok.
What question?d3x wrote:Why would it be a problem to ask this question of Amished?
HoS:MM
I'd Vote you if would count for tomorrow tonight.
Gladly, as soon as he explains his own motivations. I don't want to give him an out that I might see if he doesn't and is scum.d3x wrote:Amished, I would also like your thoughts on MM's post lynch twilight play.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
No, my name is not "Ed."-
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
Oh, found the question:
First off, if it's town, look at the wagon. Guarantee scum on it.
This will be from my point of view, and this shouldn't sway anybody.
Scien 6: ZEEnon (302), MonkeyMan576 (407), Amished (424), Chinaman (511), dvx (489), Scien (590).
ZEE/MMan I've gotten a town read from a decent amount of their play;while MMan's placement here is bound to be obvious regardless of alignment. Me is obvious, Scien will reveal town on flip, so there's China and d3x. (not sure why coug has you at dvx..)
China's buddying up to me is highly disturbing, and in the case of 3 scum total, I can see one being on, and one being off. d3x I need a greater read, but nothing had really thrown me onto your scent yet.
Honestly I'm pretty confident in my town reads of MMan and ZEEnon, so I'm really looking at China (who I've already expressed severe concerns over) and d3x (who I've not really looked at that closely, but hasn't set off any major bells or whistles).
The amount of chain-lynching going on here is alarming, so that's another thing that I really want to look at. Lately drizzle has been looking worse, and I'm neutral on JasonT (exploring that miscommunication of "not sure" etc..).
Off wagon: Dizzle (316), cruelty (361), Fuzzyman (533), jasonT1981 (568) , skruffs
Commented on dizzle, cruel's tunneling reads town, weak scum read on fuzzy, neutral jason, town skruffs (though wondering why flaked)
@Dizzle: So you know what's going through Jason's mind? If he replies tomorrow, I feel confident enough to see a revisionist excuse if I see one. Him replying is much more important than you replying for anyone.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
No, my name is not "Ed."-
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
@Dizzle: My question was why would you want to push it away from Scien (possibly I was wrong about China being paired with Scien/Raiv) and Jason was scum instead. I was hoping for an answer that could give me a clue. You put your scrunched bulldog nose into things and ruined it, making me question if it's you answering for your scumbuddy Jason.
tl; dr version: If you can't see the point of a question and it's not directed at you, butt out.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
No, my name is not "Ed."-
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
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- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
Don't you think that would've been extremely obvious? Outing two scum instead of one that *might* be lynched?jasonT1981 wrote:
I simply meant that with an hour left 2 people where going to be on L-1, and something would have to give either way. it would have been interesting to see if anyone jumped votes to make a hammer.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
No, my name is not "Ed."-
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
Yes, the stating that people will be tunneling on MMan is giving me huge cause for concern.
Like I was telling Dizzle; 599 is a good post, and one I would've asked. Your confusion over it started a lot of what's happened.
Nobody can deny that scum do slightly buddy their partners at times. With the evidence I posted between Scien and Raiv, that was a huge chunk of what shaped this end of day scenario, and Jason didn't comment on it at all. There's a multitude of reasons for it, and something that should be sniffed down.MonkeyMan576 in 599 wrote:
But you're ignoring Scien's buddying of Raivann.jasonT1981 wrote:to follow up, since I felt Rai and Monkey where scum, and Rai dead and flipped scum, my Monkey vote makes sense does it not?I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
No, my name is not "Ed."-
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Amished Mafia Scum
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- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
@Dizzle:
While not something I would've asked, as there's a clear answer for it (and had d3x replied with said answer, none of this would've started). d3x did have a deciding vote in this scenario, and his unvote and vote of scien helped make it even possible that scien was going to be lynched. While under normal circumstances voting for somebody you think is town is a scumtell; these are far from normal circumstances so it's a stupid question rather than a scummy one.MonkeyMan576 in 610 wrote:
If you're assuming Scien flips town, why did you vote for him?d3x wrote:While we still have twilight left, and assuming that Scien flips Town, what are your thoughts/reactions, Amished?
@Fuzzy: While I did a scum-town list because I expect to be NK'd, why did you? However, this provides pretty solid evidence and plenty to question; particularly your town half of the list. I don't expect anyone else to post something like that either.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
No, my name is not "Ed."-
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
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Amished Mafia Scum
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- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
*sigh*
1) Do you think you're the only one that is able to do anything at night (other than the scum that can kill)?
2) Would you want to wait til you could actually use the info to ... you know.. condemn somebody?
....I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
No, my name is not "Ed."-
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
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- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
EBWOP: The point I was trying to make to cruelty at the end of the day with the 3 adjectives is that it was extremely hectic (stupid could've been one, so I wanted him to use 3).
To then use "ignoring posts" as a further point against MMan when it was so chaotic and hectic is blatantly ignoring the situation in which missing posts/questions happened. I think we had like 2-3 pages in an *hour*. Say 60 posts in that hour, to keep it simple. Was anyone really able to keep up with a post a minute if they're trying to type out any sort of responses? I know I couldn't keep up and I could only kinda sort out what was going on after the thread was locked.
However, I will start this off with a vote, as I think China's buddying towards me and scummy behavior are well worth a vote as well. Clearly, I'm almost sure people will be all over MMan, but I want every vote to be explained in your own words and opinions.
Vote: ChinamanI'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
No, my name is not "Ed."-
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Amished Mafia Scum
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- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
@d3x: Thank you for slowing down a bit. I can understand concern, I just saw a ton of weak cases brought against MMan, and that made me extremely suspicious. Also, you were around during that initial MMan/Manz debate. Did/do you think that MMan was town *just based on that fight*?I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
No, my name is not "Ed."-
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
Since I have no idea what MMan knows, I'm telling him to wait for a little bit (like even an hour if necessary) and think about it. If it can be used now; post it. If it can be used to catch somebody in a lie, then wait a bit. However; with him saying "I have night info, derp" (paraphrased) I'm pretty sure the scum can make a pretty good guess as to what it is; and won't be caught up by it. I'm telling him to use his *best* judgment that isn't rash (clearly he responses poorly when rushing anything; I've used pressure to out him as scum in our last game together; so I want him to think about it).
The only thing that bugs me is the 2 week deadlines. It's extremely short compared to what I'm used to playing; so to have plenty of time to analyze what he says as true or false, it needs to come out sooner rather than later.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
No, my name is not "Ed."-
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
Also, @China: you should've taken advantage of the 2 days during night when nobody was posting. Unless you were talking to your partner and couldn't .... *cough cough* Need to reevaluate where I stand on other likely scum suspects too; Scien stood out the most to me from Raiv, so either Raiv never talked about his scumbuddies or mentioned them rarely (which is most of the town). I wish I could analyze him better because of it, but I'll get over it.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
No, my name is not "Ed."-
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota