Open 162--Trendy and Subversive - Over! before 831

[Chinaman]

Is this game still going?

[Chinaman]

Lol..Alright guys, I start reading up on this game then saw I hadn't been announced. I just finished reading up in another game I'm replacing so this one will have to wait till tomorrow. But, to get some answers going, no, I can not CC nurse. As far ABR not posting much, I've played with him before where he was vocal enough for me. I think it may be due to the deadness this game was facing. I will catch up ASAP and post some thoughts ASAP. This, I promise, will happen before COB Thursday. Hopefully sooner.

[Chinaman]

close of business
sorry...

[Chinaman]

alright, first let me say this game is weird. second let me say I'm pretty sure our mafia roleblocker is Vote: Net. Basically, while reading through him and one other person came to mind. It was p190 that sealed the deal for me.

I am fairly convinced that some combination of ABR/Cass/Jahudo is scum. ABR for his obvious scummy lack of content, Cass for his odd and infrequent postings which seem to be more of a hindrance than a help and Jahudo...Not really sure why on Jahudo - wording, perhaps? It's hard to say exactly why, but I do get a gut reaction from him. That being said, I find him the least likely candidate....

Also: Just did a quick reread. Unfortunately, due to CSL's inactivity/idiocy, there are no actionable connections between any of the other players and him.

First of all, 2 of the 3 people on you list are town. ABR claimed nurse, I'm town, and...you don't really know why Jahudo? There is plenty of reason to suspect Juhudo, yet you don't know why you do. I don't like it. Secondly, ABR claimed nurse and there was no CC. Why is he obvious scum to you before you all established whether or not he was nurse? Doesn't sit right with me.

Secondly, there was plenty of interaction I saw with CSL from you. It wasn't interaction really, but more of you mentioning him quite a bit. I will go back into your ISO and explain in my next post, but to me during the read through you started off onto CSL, then I got the feeling you were sorta defending him at one point, then you seemed overly excited that has being replaced enough so you mentioned it multiple times. All these things could indeed come from a town standpoint, I just got a scummy feel for them.

Also, it seems to me you like to go after ppl not posting rather than ppl who are active. That's been a scum tell in almost every game I have played in.

Last but not least, p260 almost made me change my mind on you, but then 262 came out and you sorta just auto assume I'm town there. Also you seem pretty sure Yabba is town as well. Why is that? I feel the same way, but why do YOU feel Yabba's town?
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On the flip side, I think Yabba is the most town player right now. Yeah, ABR is confirmed, but nothing Yabba has said has triggered any sort of ping on the radar.
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That being said, I have 2 people to pick from being scum. Jahudo or Net and I choose...

Vote: Net

(side note: whoever is csl's partner got screwed and I personally don't think this game should count against them, but w/e, a win is a win for me!)

[Chinaman]

Net: 2 chinaman, ABR
Jahudo: 1 Net

Personal use but you can use as well.

[Chinaman]

First of all, Chinaman, let me say that the votecount is the mod's job and not yours. Second, ABR was not confirmed at the time that I posted that. Third, I was going after people for inactivity because the game was inactive and that was the primary thing hurting our advancement as town. My hope was that putting pressure on inactive players would cause them to, well, be active. Finally, my posts in relation to CSL were due to the fact that I've played games with him before and he was an abjectly awful player in all of them. I was really hoping that we could fix that. Eventually, I began to realize that he was a lost cause. Finally, you are not proven town and all agreed that Cass was rather scummy, so I'm not entirely sure why suspicion of Cass should be seen as a scumtell.

Well, the there seems to be vote changes quite often (especially with ABR around) and I already said it was for personal use so I could keep track.

Alright, I will give you that ABR wasn't confirmed by that post, but I will however point out he WAS claimed. That's enough for most people to take them off their obvscum list.

Secondly, I do not believe all agreed that Cass was rather scummy, if anything, he just wasn't there. You trying to make YOUR opinion into EVERYONE's opinion is certainly not helping your cause with me. I PERSONALLY view those with suspicion the 2 roles I can personally confirm as a possible suspicious activity. I'm not using you thinking he was scummy as my main point, it just fits with my overall impression of you.

That being said, what's your case on Jahudo? Why him over everyone else? bullet points and post numbers would be nice so I can go back and look, but w/e. Tell me why I should join you in voting him instead of you.

I would also like you to tell me why you were suspicious of Cass when he was around and thought him to be "rather scummy".

[Chinaman]

Juh p271: It was more of a feel I got from him overall. More of a not doing anything scummy and posting in a pro-town feel overall tbh.

[Chinaman]

@all: alright, who's the scum in your opinion and how certain are you? I get the feeling there is a circle of suspicion going on with ABR in the middle having fun. I'd like to see who you'd lynch if deadline was in 1 hour. and why of course.

I would choose Net at this time as I think it's between him and Jahudo being scum. It's due to the points made above and gut mostly. We get it wrong today we are prolly in lylo unless our doc gets lucky and not killed.

Also, I ask that before any hammers go down, please post that you are going to hammer and let whoever is under the hammer respond first. It's a small game and we don't wanna lynch the doc before he even gets a chance to claim.

[Chinaman]

Alright, I'll go with it. Jahudo brings some decent points up and ABR's reasoning is pretty sound as far as claims go.

As per my own rule, I am going to hammer Yabba. Yabba, if your next post does not have you claiming doc, you're fired
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Net: I read through your post and the case on Cass was more for me to get a feel of your scumhunting and why you felt Cass was scummy. I know Cass's role so it wasn't anything but seeing where you are coming from.

As for your case on Jahudo, this is much better than "I dunno why I think he's scummy". I read through your case and his ISO and find I can't fault your logic. I for one got scum vibes from both of you. That being said, I wanna find out what Yabba has to say thus the hammer statement above. Have no doubt, I WILL follow through unless he claims. I can sort out which of you or Jahudo is scum during lylo if I'm around. Hopefully Yada is our doc so I can switch and vote for one of you today and town can vote for the other tomorrow. Win win for town no matter who scum kills.

[Chinaman]

good post yab. I like it.

I have changed my mind.

Vote: Jahudo

[Chinaman]

And that's the hammer.

[Chinaman]

What makes you think scum's gonna lynch you ABR?

[Chinaman]

Also, what makes you think Jahudo is not scum?

Let's say Jahudo flips town and I get NK'ed tonight, who's the last scum? Yabba or Net?

[Chinaman]

I think it's a good read tbh. He was my number one pick after my read through honestly. Add that with a majority of you all thinking he was best choice and it was an easy vote.

You guys needed some fun in your lives...admit it. Anyway, I'm still of the opinion its Jahudo or Net are scum, so......better hope he flips town Net.

[Chinaman]

errr....scum....better hope he flips scum.

[Chinaman]

Hrm, well, I read through your post when you posted it. Like I said, I wanted to see your reasoning behind thinking my predecessor was scummy since I know it's not. Kinda get a feel for whether or not you were stretching things to fit them as scum tend to do. You didn't do that. Next, I didn't want to post on Jahudo just yet as he was actually above you on my scumdar. I wanted this to happen. If by some chance he flips town, I will be surprised. I really don't see Yaba being scum so his vote on Yaba was strange. ABR is just crazy this game and he's confirmed so...

Anyway, if we head to night, it should be interesting to see who wakes up. I would rather talk about this tomorrow if there is one as I don't want to give scum anything to work with.

[Chinaman]

Also, I would ask you or Yabba to claim, but again, this would lead back to giving one of you info for a NK. Tomorrow I think we should all claim though for sure.

[Chinaman]

LOL, you guys are crazy. It's sad the MOD still hasn't come in though. I tell you guys what, give me a chance tomorrow to explain myself, then if you want to lose the game, you can lynch after that ok?

Also, anyone PM the MOD yet?
I will now.

[Chinaman]

are you saying you won't flip town? cuz your hammered, there's no reason to fake anymore if you're scum. I also already mentioned in other posts that if we have a tomorrow...blah blah blah. Here's the thing Jahudo, I think you're just messing with us because you got caught as scum and are ticked I hammered like I did. If not, then we can sort it out tomorrow IF THERE IS ONE.

[Chinaman]

Then I have a feeling my original path on you was right. Why are YOU now assuming there will be a tomorrow AND assuming I'm not going to be NK'ed? If Jahudo flips town, you're our scum through and through. We'll see claims from those left tomorrow if there is a tomorrow and go from there. I personally think if you claim doc, Yabba will CC and I will believe him over you. (if all those mentioned are alive tomorrow if there is a tomorrow).

[Chinaman]

Well don't assume anything in this game Net. if you are willing to lynch me tomorrow (if there is one) without having to hear what I have to say, wouldn't that be scummy as well?

[Chinaman]

Alright guys, you wanna lose the game if we go in LYLO then lynch me before I post. I won't count it as a loss for me due to you all not wanting to hear anything. There is a very good reason for doing what I did and if you don't wanna hear it, lose the game then. Jeebus, talk about thick headed.

[Chinaman]

Alright, I was gonna save it so I didn't get NK'ed, but I will go ahead and put myself in deaths way and claim. I will not however say who I'm going to save tonight.

I claim Doc.

Here is the reason I did what I did and why it's now pretty much ruined (thanks ABR). I hammered Jahudo because I believe the last scum is either him or Net. I also wanted to look scummy as possible because I believe that scum would have tried to find the Doc before they tried to kill the nurse tonight (if there is a tonight). Scum would have avoided me due to my scummy actions today thus avoiding lynching the doc and going for someone else. I believe they would have not tried to lynch ABR thus I was going to protect Yabba or Net and if there was no NK, that could have been semi clearing of them and condemned the other. I chose not to hammer Yabba because like I said, I think he's town. I was also trying to bait someone into claiming doc today so we could nail them, but alas, i don't think they took the bait...though in retrospect, I don't think I gave Jahudo the time.

Does anyone want to CC before mod puts us into night or tells us the game is over?

So, if I die tonight, I would suggest a Net lynch. I honestly think Yabba is town, but don't rush it ABR. Look back and examine. During my read through, Yabba never made scumslips that tipped me to him being even remotely scummy, but you have said you could see him being scum, so weight that heavily. If Jahudo flips town, good luck ya'll as I will prolly be NK'ed due to claiming.

[Chinaman]

Alright, Net is our scum for sure. 100%. So I will not be NK'ed since I'm the real doc and that would hurt his fake CC. I'm guessing he's going to no kill. Yabba and ABR are 100% town.

As for me fishing for doc...I AM DOC numbnuts.

I'm voting Net tomorrow and if you all do not also vote him, town loses. That's it.

Yabba, did my explanation of why I looked scummy make no sense to you? d3x told me you were good, I'm assuming you will see the logic behind it. Here's some WIFOM for you.

If I were scum, would I have A: quicklynched and looked really scummy and B: Claimed doc?

Just think about it before you lynch me and lose this.

[Chinaman]

I was trying to get someone to claim doc because then I would know who scum was.

Alright, I am going to go through and thoughtfully put down my actions and why I did them for you and leave you to decide. I will do this after kids go to bed. I will do this because I think we can win if you understand my motives. If you decide I full of it, then so be it. I'm thinking now that I should have played it straight possibly have been NK'ed vs going for scummy. ABR's vote on you scared me though as I thought you were town so I went for the scum look. Post to follow.

[Chinaman]

ABR, I will protect you but I will be blocked by Net as he is a roleblocker so if he wants to kill you he will. He won't kill me and he won't kill Yaba because Yaba wants my head. So protecting you will do nothing if he wants you dead. You making me claim has ensured he can RB. While I'm not blaming you for that, it's the facts now.

Going back through to explain my actions with each post. More to come.

[Chinaman]

Alright, if you ISO me post 3 is where I guess it right on the nose with Net.

p3 and 5 are both solid cases on Net and I now know I was right.

p7 is where I realize that after a lynch today, scum will prolly leave ABR alone and try and go for the doc which I now know would have been me or Yaba. This worries me because he either RB's Yaba and kills me or RB's me and kills Yaba. I would have protected Yaba tonight, but again, one of us would be dead as ABR has no night role till I die. This is also where I ask for someone to wait to hammer for a claim setting up a trap for scum and ensure I get a chance to claim before being hammered if it came to that. I was hoping Net would claim here tbh, but the votes shifted to Yaba and I wasn't going to lynch him because I strongly felt he was town.

p8 is where I thought I might be wrong about Net and that Yaba might have played a really good scum game. I wasn't going to hammer him no matter what unless he actually DID claim doc. I also try to buddy up to Net in case he's scum to avoid him NK'ing me if he wasn't lynched. This is also where I decide to play scummy to make sure he kept me around for tomorrow. If he wanted to lynch Jahudo (who would have had to hammer) that night, he would have been able to do so, but I would claim Doc and would have to convince ABR of it because Net would obviously have to CC. You could replace Net with Jahudo at this point cuz I still didn't know which was scum.

p9....If I was scum, this is the dumbest move in scum history. It does not win the game for me and puts us in LYLO if I'm wrong. 50/50 chance in my eyes so I took it. I did not explain it as to ensure I was alive for tomorrow by looking scummy and having Net (who is the scum in my eyes) keep me alive and either no kill or NK Yaba as at this time I PM'ed the Mod telling him the day was over and my night action was to protect ABR.

p11-15 is where I'm trying to get a read on Yaba to make sure I had him right and also to continue to ensure Net leaves me alive and HOPE he kills Yaba at night so I'm sure.

p16 is me still pretending I'm not doc as to confuse scum and get scum to claim.

After that it gets hectic as my kids are awake and I want to try and calm the townies down so I get a chance to explain the above. Also, let me ask you guys a question here, I look scummy as hell, yet Net still does not claim Doc. If everyone was so sure I was scum, why did he not claim doc right away to make sure I was lynched and look even scummier? He waited till after I claimed doc to do it. The reason he waited is because he's not the Doc. There is a difference there, but there is one.

p22 is where I ask for a cc so I know for sure who the scum is. I was fishing for a fake claim when I was fishing. I am Doc and town will lose if I'm lynched. Like I said, my night action was to protect ABR, though if Net wants him dead, he's dead. If I'm lying about who I protected, it doesn't matter as I will be RB'ed.

All in all, if you guys choose to lynch me then it's my fault that we lose and not yours. I honestly didn't think it would be this hard to convince you after I claimed. Even though it's purely WIFOM, you still have to ask yourself if scum would hammer like that without explanation and expect to win. Look at what's happening right now. You guys are dead set on lynching me and for good reason. Anyway, sorry for the play if we end up losing. It's my fault for not being able to clearly state why I did things and be able to convince you. This is not an AtE and I will be saying the same thing when the game is over. You have a tough choice ahead of you as Net has no option now than to try to make sure I'm lynched tomorrow due to his fake claim and I have no doubt that he is scum also due to his fake claim.

Also, go back and look at Case's fluff posts. I believe he was doing that to remain under the radar, not from the town, but from the scum. Tomorrow, I will be voting Net and Net will be voting me. It will be up to who ever is left to sort this out. Please ask me any questions that may help make you decide.

[Chinaman]

Not necessarily Yabba, he will kill whoever he thinks will auto vote me without wanting discussion. He might possibly kill you because so far in this game, ABR has been pretty random and shoot from the hip. I think out of the 2 of you (ABR and Yabba), you (Yabba) would want discussion tomorrow before you vote whereas ABR seems as though he would just vote.

[Chinaman]

/sigh....Net, explain to me your interactions with CSL playing as Doc. Reading through, your interactions with him make no sense with you playing as Doc. So please, all the post where you half defended him and coached him, explain to me what your goal in saying what you said to him was reaching your goals as playing Doc. It makes no sense to me, so your lies about it should be interesting. The fact you are his partner though, your comments make much more sense.

[Chinaman]

Im not backpedaling. I thought you were scum when I came into your game but I couldn't know for sure. Your explanations were fine when I didn't know, but now they are lies. Now that I know your scum, I would like you to explain them from a doc's perspective because the Doc role and the VT role are NOT the same. Your actions with CSL in light of you being scum are much more damning and since it's between you and me being scum as far as ABR and Yabba are concerned, I'd like you to go back not for me but for them. I already KNOW you're scum, I think you should prove to them you're not as apposed to just saying I am. Do you not think so?

[Chinaman]

See, what you don't understand here is that although I look scummy, I claimed Doc and you CC'ed. Thus, you're not auto town Net. My scummy actions were A: intentional as I already explained and B: more recent. If both Yabba and ABR don't go back and look through the whole thing and just lynch me due to latest actions, I won't be fully responsible for the towns lose. I think either one of them will do this though so you are not off the hook. Another thing is, you know I'm the real Doc and you HAD to CC...there was no other option for you. It was either I'm the doc and you or Yabba were the scum (had you claimed VT) or you CC Doc and have to go up against someone who made scummy actions very recently. I don't think you thought I did it on purpose so you saw the sure win with CC'ing Doc. Thing is, it's not as sure as you think. All these short posts since you've CC'ed are doing what exactly? They are showing you don't want to post anything lengthy so you have a smaller chance at making a slip. All in all, Yabba and ABR will hopefully be going back and comparing us vs. shooting from the hip and if they do that, your lies about Doc are going to look worse.

I will ask you a question that I think you can answer from me though...can you give me a solid reason for purposely looking so scummy at the end of today if I didn't have a Power Role to back me up? Look at ABR this game, he was almost lynched for his actions, but he acted thus because he had a PR to back him up.

Also, I have some meta about my play style that matches this last vote of mine.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=350
post 370. I read my gut and I was right. I was wrong between my 50/50 with you and Jahudo, but I was town in that game and am Doc in this game. I nailed you as soon as I came in and should have trusted my gut here too, but ah well, no sure way of knowing till you CC'ed.

[Chinaman]

Why would I fall into your "trap" since you new I was not scum and now know I'm Doc. First paragraph is fluffy lies.

NOW who's buttering them up for tomorrow (if it ever comes MOD). I will admit they are panicked, but they aren't assaults. They are fact Net, but very good post as scum, remind me to commend you on after the games over. WE will win this game, you and your scumbuddy won't. See, the thing is, if they do go back, and look at the things I pointed out when I first came in and nailed you as scum, I don't think they are going to see things your way Net. First of all, you were playing as scum then as you are now. You say that I buttered them up, now look what you are doing. I am panicked because of how they recently stated my death is imminent and if that were to happen we would lose, hence the panic. I knew I would have to prove myself tomorrow if I was wrong between you and Jahudo when I lynched him, but it was a calculated risk. I did not however expect guns blazing from them without getting a chance to explain. Had this game went to night already, we as the town, would be much worse off. Now that we can go through this in Twilight and rationally look at things, we are much better off. But hey, if things do go your way and town losses, p343 is a good one from you tbh. I know it's full of lies, but Yabba and ABR don't.

Yabba and ABR, what are you plans for tomorrow? Are you still gunning for me from the start or will you be going back and looking? Can you at least see the possibility of why I wanted to look scummy come night time and why I went ahead and voted Jahudo since he I felt it was 50/50 between him and Net. Can you see at least the possibility of why once I claimed Doc, Net had to CC me as scum? Is there anything from me that you need to make a decision or anything else you would like explained?

[Chinaman]

Yup Yabba, it's up to you. I've said my peace, but if there's anything you need clarification on, let me know.

Vote: Netopalis

I will say I'm sorta surprised that Net decided to NK ABR as he was more apt to just vote me, but it's a good play to confuse you and make it look like I was the one to do the action at night. Have you had a chance to go back and look at the reasons I thought Net was scum when I first came into this game? What are your thoughts about it?

There are a few things I would like to point out.
-He votes for you in RVS
-He has a semi-serious vote for Kham shortly after or at the tail end of RVS for her RVS vote
-p7 and p8 strike me as funny because it's both against ABR and Yabba, and he puts in a "possible RB" plug in there when he is in fact the RB.
-Votes CSL for being inactive. Keep in mind that CSL is his scumbuddy and isn't helping Net out very much. He unvotes and then has a hint of coaching in p13 an p14
-p15 he mentions the RB thing again which is a flat out lie since he got the PM that he was the RB. Hilarious.
-p17 defense of CSL
-p19 is straight up buddying to the most active and known town players
-p20 is where he buddies up to you again, points fingers and known town and me (Cass) which is also town, and really really hopes his inactive scumbuddy gets replaced.
-p23 wonders where the scum's replacement is. This is actually where I got my strong feeling for him being scum during my readthrough
-p30 and 31 looking to make ABR and Jahudo scummy (both known town)
-p32 to p42 he pushes for Jahudo and ABR being scum and then pushes really hard to get ABR lynched.
-p43 since no replacement is coming, he busses his partner for being scummy but has mentioned NONE of his own thoughts about CSL being scummy except early on when CSL was lurking and even then, he says TWICE he isn't voting CSL for a lynch, but for a prod vote.
-p45 he has to unvote ABR due to claim and goes to CSL "for now"
-p46 WHY WOULD NET RIGHT THIS AS TOWN? TOWN JUST CAUGHT A SELF PROCLAIMED SCUM AND HE'S PISSED ABOUT IT? (give this one a lot of thought Yabba, I think it's most damning and I would really like to pull a win for town even after my actions end of D2)
-p48 it's still really personal for Net as he just lost his scumbuddy D1.
-p49 separation from CSL, asks for the end of the day for no more scumhunting....really? town want to end the day when they don't have to?
-p52 fairly convinced 3 town are scum. to be fair thought Yabba, you only know 2 are town and I claimed doc and got CC'ed
-p53 he comments on his own night actions (in my experience a scum trait most the time...not always, but most the time)
-p66 and on is where I was involved and Net did enough to make me think it was either him or Jahudo were the scum, so I was ok with lynching one then the other for a town win. I will admit I think I went about it the wrong way tbh, but I was trying to confuse Net and make sure he didn't NK me last night so I could see his lynch today.

If you really look through his ISO, there is never an instance where he forms a full out case on anyone. He sorta just goes with the flow of whoever people are thinking is scummy. He has buddyed up to you pretty hard and went after everyone else that is town. He didn't claim Doc until after I claimed as I'm sure he was afraid that Yabba was Doc. If you notice my posts, they were very much pointing in that direction and because it was me doing the scummy stuff at the end of D2, he couldn't very well claim doc against the person everyone thought was most town. He was only free to CC me after he knew it wasn't you Yabba. All my points above are in viewing his ISO. There isn't much more for me to say unless you need clarification on my thoughts or have questions for me directly. It's now in your hands.
-

[Chinaman]

fuck! ninja'ed

[Chinaman]

fuck fuck fuck. could have at least let me post Yabba!

[Chinaman]

w/e...way to go Net. TBH, I was more than a little rash in voting Jahudo. Dunno why I went that fast, but it prolly has something to do with me doing something very similar in another game and winning it for town. Thought I could pull it off here too. Ah well. Yabba, had you been not so rash to vote me without me posting, would my above post had you at least doubting your decision and maybe waiting for a little more discussion?

[Chinaman]

I read it as emotional response. Might want to avoid that in the future if you're scum again. Also, avoid comments about NK's either way as they are scummy most the time. The reason is because, unless you're scum, discussing them is pure WIFOM. Helpful hints for your next games.

[Chinaman]

Meh, what I did was semi logical and it worked in another game. I'll take it as it is though.