Mini 855: Colorless Rainbow Town (Halted for list mod error)

[Amished]

Hey there. Deadline in 2 days, I'll mostly be looking at the top vote-getters, just FYI. (Noted Monkey, Scien, ZEE; all of which I've played with in various circumstances). Reading now.

[Amished]

Heh, thinking back, I've seen all three as scum, Monkey twice as scum. Good deal. Page 8.

[Amished]

I replaced into Inventor Mafia after you replaced out. However, I misremembered and thought that your replace-ee was scum when they weren't. Zazier was the one that was scum in that game that I pegged. Actually, your "Z" names made me confused while in that game as well.

Anyways, here's my (copied) list of people (from the OP), and my thoughts on what they should do:

cruelty - calm down, reread what monkey said after a night away, and start over. It's pretty clear that you weren't seeing what Monkey said correctly.

Dizzle - Post more, especially on your suspects. Double especially on people other than MMan.

d3x - Not too bad, other than voting for the wrong person.

Fuzzyman - post more, period. Christ.

jasonT1981 - Is he here? I'd say post more than what you have by 8, maybe 18.

Skruffs - not too bad.

MonkeyMan576 - be less emotional when posting. I see where you're coming from, but a lot of the details are being lost in translation I believe.

Scien - Hi, keep being scum.

Chinaman - {refer to Scien's comment}

ZEEnon - Hi, keep up the great work.

Clearly, Scien is scum; Chinaman is almost certainly scum as well. MMan is nothing like I've seen him as scum, and he's been under plenty of pressure in scumgames that I've been in with him. ZEEnon (other than one "read" thing concerning Raiv's ISO being different from me) has been spot on with his posts. Oh, and I think his (ZEE's) read of Scien's response to Raiv dying is wrong, but I can see where he is coming from there as well.

Hell, Chinaman's "case" against MMan in 409 should be enough to convince everyone that Chinaman is not aligned with MMan, and Chinaman isn't town in this argument.

However, Scien has more tells that he's scum, as well as more of a connection with Raiv (our only current scumflip) so he's my choice for today's lynch; as well as being on the actual somewhat-high votegetter list.

Unvote

(if necessary, I don't think it is)

Vote: Scien

[Amished]

Other than I'm voting for Scien and not ZEEnon....

I think we're good! Maybe..

[Amished]

Wow, ok, gogo crossposting. I have almost 2000 words dedicated towards why Scien is scum (that counts "quote" tags and all), so I'll wait for ZEE to post before I put mine out there.

After spending ... about 40 minutes going through the game (a second/third time in some places) on Scien, I'll get to my explanations. I look for initial reactions, and all of my evidence does come from this game. Do not strawman me before I can even produce my evidence.

@China: Most games (mini) are either 2:10 mountainous (2 scum, 10 basically useless town roles/vanillas) or 3:9. As most (read: 95+% of them) shy away from mountainous as they like to try out other things/like power roles and need scum to balance out the town power. 3:9 is a very common assumption to make, that will hold true in almost all cases.

As cruelty asked first, I'll get to his request first as well. If I need/have time to go through my stance that you're scum, I will. Give it time. Preemptively attacking me when you don't even know what I have is worse than an instant OMGUS, and I can't see that response coming from a townie either.

Gogo quick posting behind me. Getting to where I feel cruelty misunderstood MMan, and where MMan tried to explain himself so I'm not putting words in MMan's mouth either.

[Amished]

Ok, so since I suck with URL tags, I'll just refer back to the posts that were between cruel and MMan.

MMan's post in 320 (bottom of page 13) where he stated that bringing out lurkers is pro-town; personally I agree with him.

If scum realises someone is lurking, it's in their best interest to draw attention to this as well - it takes the heat off them.

This is only applicable where the scum have heat *on them*. At that point, China unvotes MMan and Dizzle put a vote on MMan instead. I *believe* that this is only the single vote on MMan, so there's no pressure. You saying that it's a null-tell when the scum side of your position is nullified is logically inconsistent in my opinion, and where a lot of this starts off as.

From there, if there isn't a scum side to your logic, it is pro-town, and most of the rest of your weak point against him is moot. Besides, even if scum are trying to bring out lurkers, if the lurker is town, it allows the rest of the town to get a read on him (likely town), allows a scumhunter a way back into the game to find them (anti-scum wincon, as they'll be lynched) and not something scum is likely to do (without pressure on them, which MMan had *ZERO* pressure on him at the time.) Scum targeting scum-lurkers to come back into the game makes it look scummy on the lurker if they're not active afterwards (anti-scum wincon); or can allow their partner to commit their own scumtells by coming back into the game (anti-scum wincon as they'll get lynched instead of a townie). With no pressure, I contend that bringing lurkers back is pro-town; and related to this is why I had to lol at China's attempt to look pro-town (I'll get to this later).

In 324, you go from it being a null-tell to being scummy. To me, it looks like you're getting emotional after accusing MMan of twisting your words.

325: MMan points out that he feels having your vote on somebody is better than withholding your vote if you think somebody is scummy, and I would have to agree with him.

326: You say that you would vote for MMan, but you won't yet (waiting for ZEEnon, somewhat understandable)

327: MMan says that since you're pressing a point and saying somebody is scummy for it without "being able" to vote for them is premature (true; if you're not willing to vote for somebody at that point, especially when you're *not voting for anybody*; it looks extremely suspicious.) Consider that, and when you said that voting for MMan would be premature and foolish, when in this post he calls your case premature and foolish. He was clearly ridiculing your stance of not voting him when you say he's scummy.

Look at this exchange in particular: A townie is suspicious of everybody. If they see somebody calling them scum, they're obviously going to go on the defensive. If they see somebody calling them scum to the point of almost voting them and not (for a weak reason, you could always switch to whoever you want to vote for later depending on results) it looks to that person (MMan in this case) like scum trying to buddy them, but still be around to vote them if a wagon builds on them.

That directly relates to your 328 question of why waiting for ZEE makes your "case" against MMan premature and weak. This also ties into you wondering how MMan's response (you questioned in 346) isn't OMGUS (as it's a reasonable townie concern) and a valid response.

Attacking a weak reason against you as *any* alignment isn't OMGUS. It's attacking a weak reason. For it to be OMGUS, it has to actually be a good point. By 360 (your vote on MMan) I don't see anything that MMan hasn't tried to answer.

At this point, you're both hopelessly tunneled on each other (you more than MMan), picking out EXTREMELY minor statements and trying to turn them scummy. You both fly off the handle and don't even listen to anything the other is saying, while also not convincing anybody else of the other's scumminess. It's a loud distraction that the scum are more than happy to let continue. (Scien and Chinaman both didn't really post in this stretch, while d3x, ZEE, Skruffs and Dizzle all chime in during this part.)

Do you see where I'm coming from?

@ZEE: I will post my analysis of Scien if you'd like now, though I think part of it might help MMan's status. It's minor if it's there.

[Amished]

EBWOP: If ZEE (in the next 22 minutes, getting to Midnight my time) doesn't post or respond in some way, I'll post what I have on Scien.

[Amished]

I know, I'm talking about his inclination to post his thoughts on MMan which I will probably cover as well if he didn't want any overlap of me.

[Amished]

Scien's early posts are way too aloof for a townie. ZEE also commented on this in a slightly more mysterious manner of "Scien's questioning can both be seen a pro-town and scummy" (direct quote, ISO 6). I will elaborate on *his* scumtells more if need be, but I would prefer to keep what I look for in the dark to definitively get any remaining scum. To phrase in another way: especially in the Manz vs. MMan early back and forth; I would fully expect a townie to be able to identify with one or the other in the argument. However, Scien is playing wiffleball with both of them, not taking a stance, probably waiting for one of them to make more of a slip and hop on them for that. (Skruffs, commented on this as well when he replaced in)

However, if you are worth your salt as a scumhunter (and I hope you are), you will *LOOK FOR CONNECTIONS TO OTHER SCUM*. Skruffs and ZEE both commented on this, but nobody took the time to, other than ... well.. Skruffs and ZEE it appears.

Therefore, I really point you to ZEEnon's 388. To point out the extremely good connections between Raiv and Scien, here's the relevant quotes that I 100% agree with (or come close to, if not 100%. Where I'm not 100% I will note).

Raivann's Isolation Post #12:

This post makes me think Chinaman is less scummy, which may surprise you. Since Raivann was under major suspicion now at that point, I would expect more buddying up to town-aligned players, saying that he thinks they are town, while he very likely started to bus his buddies to potentially get them a better standing within the town community. In this post, Raivann calls Chinaman's post townie, which is likely due to the fact that Chinaman IS in fact town and that he wanted to buddy up to him. Just my opinion on the post, no need to feel the same way as me.

This is one point where I disagree with ZEEnon. I think Raiv is well into bussing by that point, and would incriminate his partners to make himself look better if he could turn around his lynch. However, that's more against Chinaman and not Scien, so moving on:

Raivann's Isolation Post #15:

probscum=Zeenon,MM

I support either a Scien or Zeenon lynch.
Vote:Scien

Within a span of, wait for it, ONE post, he completely turns around from naming me as his top suspect, to voting Scien. Just like I stated in my analysis of Raivann's Isolation Post #12, I think this is the time that Raivann would DEFINITELY start to bus as mafia, since he had at least half of the players suspecting him majorly. The fact that he just names Scien as a suspect and votes him just from one post Scien made is extremely suspicious to me, making Scien pop onto my radar immediately after seeing Raivann flip scum.

Raivann's Isolation Post #17:

This post of Raivann's just makes me laugh. Like seriously! What goes on in this guy's head?

"I'm going to ask my number one suspect if he wants to switch with me to my number two suspect!"

To be honest, "Would you support a Zeenon lynch, Scien?" makes me feel even stronger conviction that Scien is mafia. Sure, you might argue that scum wouldn't be that obvious about their partners. But then again you would also argue that scum wouldn't be obvious about themselves, but clearly Raivann contradicts that statement since he obvious to the extreme.

That's it for the Raivann post-by-post analysis, stay tuned for more!

As scum, what's the *only* reason you would ask your #1 suspect if he would back you up? Scum talking to a townie that way clearly isn't going to work (and he (raiv) didn't ask the question to ZEE); but you could expect somebody *who is aligned with you* to back you up. That's a huge nail in Scien's coffin, but there's more that hasn't been looked at (to my knowledge): Scien's (and everybody's) referencing to Raiv.

Here's the significant quotes, and where I got them from:

ISO 12: Scien says that Raivs "fuzzy = town" scumslip makes sense, but said slip is the first reason why Scien votes for Raiv. This is all in the same post, which makes it especially damning in my eyes.


ISO 14:

One, there are other points against you, and your brevity is not helping.

Two, how the heck is giving town reads on players protown?

Anyone can do it. Also scum committing to lying saying they have scum tells on someone is typically more dangerous for them to do than telling us they have town tells on people... its easy to find new 'scummy' stuff to change the scum's mind later and pursue a townie they said was town earlier...

However irritating a townie by weakly pursuing them earlier using 'scum tells' is going to catch them attention, from the very least their target.

I don't get why you think that giving town reads is protown... How so?

Huge coaching in this post. Leaves himself an out in case Raiv does what Scien views Raiv *should* be doing to get himself out of a lynch.


ISO 15

Ok. I'll give you a chance to reread. My vote stays until I start doubting my read though. As for your link, I'll give 'er a read tomorrow. As it stands currently, I still think it is a bad idea to ask for townie lists... One question in the meantime though. If you think its a good idea, is the only thing holding you back the fact that you haven't responded to Monkey yet? Or are you withholding for other reasons?

As it stands at the moment... I think that your views on people suspecting you are negative... and your views on the people saying they might not suspect you are positive. Don't know what to think about that...

(Fuzzy points elsewhere... You think this is townie.
D3x points you... you think scum.
Chinaman unvotes you... you think townie.)

Gives Raiv more wiggle room to do what Scien wanted Raiv to do to appear pro-town. Also gives Scien a way to unvote Raiv at a moments notice. Bolded is *huge* coaching, telling Raiv exactly what not to do. Scien commenting on this being scummy, but not having it solidify his read on Raiv is damning as well. (Also, Raiv and Scien were in a game together, in which I also was (town). Scien scum in that game, Raiv newb-town. They have a repertoire with each other, I can def. see Raiv looking to Scien for help if needed)

ISO 18

Okay... I have not been on him because that was an obvious miswording. I don't even understand how someone can be both townie AND scummy... and naturally assumed that this was not his intended meaning. How can someone be both?

I'm not deliberately trying to defend him here, I am trying to defend myself, but I am making an assumption about what he meant by that phrase. I think he was trying to say that my questioning was inherently neither pro-town nor pro-scum and suggest that he had not made up his mind on me yet. In other words, he screwed up the conjunction, he meant OR, not AND. By me making this assumption that he misworded when he made that statement, I guess I don't see what I should be concerned about. What does him using 'and' imply?

This is him trying to reword what Raiv said into a more pro-town standpoint. Skruffs caught it and questioned him on it, while I missed it initially. Town-Scien doesn't need to make anybody logical, needs to look at what was said and ask questions if it's not understood.

{BTW: ISO 22 (it's all you really need to read) is another reason why I believe Scien to be scum all on his own. Skruffs questions are excellent, and Sciens answers are less than stellar}

ISO 24

This does read like scum hopping on a wagon to me. Sure he has posted his reasons but it reads like he doesn't really believe them.

I believe them. I want to discuss them with you. I was trying to give you some time for you to catch up.

Would you like to address some of my and the town's concerns here?

Here are mine, I think the rest of the town was just harping on one though:

First, Raiv is under severe pressure at this point, and I believe his (Raivs) question to Scien is part of Raiv's attempt to buss Scien. Also, if you believe in scum slips of the tongue, the bolded is classic.

ISO 27 is ridiculous. Seriously. I shouldn't need to quote any more than that, but I'll keep going. If that's not trying to make Raiv appear pro-town, I don't know what is. If you can see a town motivation for making somebody so scummy look townie, please enlighten me.

ISO 34

Woah. Number one, would that end the day?

Number two, do I detect a whiff that you are happy about this?

BTW I was aware of the rule. I was hoping it would be ignored... and he would play.

First question (by Scien): hoping that he'll get out of it with just a scum modkill and not have to worry about looking townie for the remainder of the day, and possibly dealing with another scumlynch, after how much Raiv connected himself with you. Second question (by Scien): Scien was unhappy about Raiv getting killed, but still voting for him. With the recent FoS to ZEEnon, why keep a vote on Raiv (that got to L-1, L-2 for SURE) if Scien didn't want to see him dead? After that much pressure and a wagon progressing that far, everybody voting for him should want him lynched at that point. To "not be happy" about it is an utterly ridiculous statement and also pegs Scien as scum.

At this point, Raiv was modkilled, and obviously back and forth ceased.

*deep breath*

Ok.

And there we go! I think how long any suspicion on anybody has taken so long is a big factor as to how ZEEnon's doubting himself (and I definitely know that feeling as well.) I do *not* understand any votes on MMan beyond cruelty's. China hopping on the bandwagon certainly doesn't improve my view of him.

Finally, done with a synopsis, and I can get to asking specific questions:

@Fuzzy: Why do you think ZEEnon is scum? (if you don't see why I'm asking you this, refer to your last point in 402)

@China: Who is your 2nd suspect and why?

@Dizzle: Why do you feel ZEEnon and MMan are paired? (First line of 401)

@d3x: Have you ever missed part of a post by anybody?

@Jason: Looking forward to your extended posting tomorrow, you haven't given me a lot to work with yet.

@Skruffs: How do you react to how I view your points as valid, as well as my painting of MMan as town?

@ZEEnon: What of China did you see that makes you think he's town?

@Scien: Well, there's plenty here for you to comment on, I'll not bother you with more questions. Not that I particularly care, I don't think there's an answer you can give that would make me change my mind on you.

I'm missing somebody, I think. 11 left, 10 others. Dizzle (check), d3x (check), cruelty.. Ah, this is covered in my post to him about his exchange with MMan, so (check), China (check), ZEEnon (check), MMan.. Oops, that's where my other miss was.

@Monkey: You've slowly come to a Scien vote after thinking Scien and Raiv were paired (and then fallen away from it). What made you think that they weren't paired after Raiv came up positive for scum?

[Amished]

I'll probably have more time tomorrow, so before anything too rash happens, I'll most likely post my thoughts on China then as well.

(Sorry for the double post).

[Amished]

Fuzzy, how many games have you played?

[Amished]

EBWOP: NVM, I see in your sig. Therefore I have to point out how weak all three of your points are. Regardless, why do you see each of them as coming from scum rather than town?

[Amished]

(First off, I love pre-game, it's so boring that I can do this while having that on in the background. Secondly, I apologize for the triple post, but this is something that I promised I would post.)

Ok, so in my notes, my points against China are thus: Post 181/191, 215, 285 and 288. I also have to lol at his attempts in 336 and 374. All bolding will be mine.

So far I have a pretty much null read on everyone. I honestly believe that the argument between MM and Manz was town vs town.

I got the feeling there were exaggerations in both arguments and it is my opinion that scum would tend to avoid a huge confrontation like that at the very beginning of a game. I of course could be totally wrong here, but if either one were scum, they put themselves in the spotlight far too much with their back and forth.

What I will be doing when I go back through is looking for those who tried to fuel the fire without jumping in too hard themselves.

Anyway, that's all I got thus far and I hope to catch up soon.

and then compare that sentiment to this:

Anyway, like I said, I made it through and am pretty much current. Not being involved in the first 7 pages of discussion, it's hard to get as good a read on anyone as of yet. I am going to re-read, and come back with some questions and comments.

My predecessor made one post and that was an RVS vote on the now current bandwagon. I do not yet know how I feel about him, but I have read some good points made by you all about some scummy things he's doing. In my first read through, I had to agree with most of the points on him, but as I haven't had a chance to ask him any questions or come up with a solid argument for why I am on the wagon, I must UNVOTE till I feel that the vote on him is from me and not left over from Sweep.

First off, with so many people saying that MMan vs. Manz/Skruffs is town vs. town, I'm 95% certain that it is, and scum are playing the angle of townies that feel confident that their town reads are correct. This is a major point that I feel makes MMan more clear than anything else I have that can point to, other than I understand where he's coming from had I been in his position. I wouldn't have said some of the things he's said, but as I can see his point of view, I'm more confident that he's town as well.

Second point: Skruffs pointed out that Scien was trying to fuel the flames (which I found particularly poignant in this case) and China didn't see that Scien was doing exactly what China said he was going to look for. No town motivation for this, and in the space of 10 posts (an hour and a half) it's highly unlikely that his mind would've changed that quickly about what he was going to look for. This alone is enough for me to vote for both of them.

Moving on

I've already explained I want my vote to be on the record, I'm guessing scum on Raivann at this point and to not vote would be anti-town. I think there's a good chance Raivann could eventually be lynched and I'd rather vote now than give scum the opportunity to vote at L-1. If people have a problem with my vote, I'll unvote if they are worried about a scum lynch.

So does that mean if a scum gets lynched and there are 3 people on on the wagon, are those 3 people your next top suspects since them not being on the wagon is "anti-town"?

Also, I don't like that you are worried about what other people think of your vote. It's not the vote people were attacking...it's you basically holding up a big neon sign saying "Hey guys, for the record, I voted for scum!!" That's what is bothering people including myself. The fact that you want to "make others happy" by removing your vote if they say to do so also bothers me. If you think he's scum, who cares what others think about your vote? It's supposed to be your opinion. If it bites you in the ass later, well, it bites you in the ass. Only scum truely care about how they look in others eyes. Town care about finding and lynching scum. So yeah, the above questions to be answered please.

Epic strawman. EPIC.

I appreciate Scien giving Raivann a chance, but he's agreeing with some stuff that is clearly scummy. Saying that the Manzcar discussion was "boring", possibly trying to derail the Wagon with a Zeenon wagon, giving Raivann "town points" for defending himself better, when he is clearly still behind on town points overall. It's like saying someone is a good baseball player for batting .240, because he was batting .180 before. I'm questioning the logic here, and the possibility of a Raivann/Scien scum team.

His VERY NEXT post

Well, I'm still suspicious of the buddying, although I agree Raivann might be bad town rather than scum. It's hard to tell at this point.

Talk about your flip-flop! That sounds like scum trying to cover their mislynching azz.

Or am I just crazy? Hell, the only post in between those two post was from Scien.

(quote snipped)

I don't like this play from MM at all. First off, I'm getting a town read from Scien at this point. Secondly, his is the only post in between the first quoted post from MM and the second. This is pretty much a scumslip in my eyes. Going to go back now and take a nice long look at MM. Before you go saying, "what, are we not aloud to change our minds" or some other similar post, note that

I already explained why this wouldn't be ok (it's too quick in case you missed my above points). The other reason this wouldn't be ok, is because you didn't explain at all why you had such the sudden change of heart. Going from full throttle lynch someone to maybe they are town so quick just reeks of scum.

Also note: You say there is a possible scien/raivann team in one post then take Scien's explanation at face value the next? I don't even need to go back on you in order to VOTE: MonkeyMan....I am still going to though.

First, it's necessary to understand the circumstances around these posts. Scien was slowly trying to turn the tide against Raiv, and was moderately successful before the modkill (which I would've thought would end the day, but this works better for me); but to do so, there had to be an alternate wagon for people to look at. Here comes China!

Ok, first bolded: Clearly that was not the case, and the extreme way that it was phrased is a clear appeal to fear (of mislynching). With China most likely feeling that MMan could compete with (and overtake) Raiv with his "case" against MMan; he could get MMan lynched, coach Raiv so as not to get lynched during the night, and never know about a mislynch.

Second bolded: Every scummer has had doubts at some point during their career about a lynch. I've been confident and they turn up town, confident and they turn up scum, very unsure and they turn up scum, unsure with town, and fully against both town and scum wagons. Second guessing yourself, especially in the venue of forum mafia is 100% natural. MMan keeping his vote on Raiv while examining his reasons for it is 100% natural, and something I can definitely see coming from town rather than scum. In this case, I would expect scum to *either* push more on a Raiv lynch and then later claim to be a big proponent of the lynch, or distance mightily and go under the guise of trying not to tunnel on the #1 scumspect (even though China is tunneling on MMan).

I would like you to explain how you can say "I'm questioning the logic here, and the possibility of a Raivann/Scien scum team. " then suddenly Scien (someone you just got done calling scum-mate with Raivann) makes some "good points" and all a sudden....

I think it's scummy. Hence my post. And I already told you that a simple post like the one you just posted was not gonna be a good enough explanation for me. Seriously...read the end of my post...I'll even re-post it for you.

Before you go saying, "what, are we not aloud to change our minds"

or some other similar post

, note that I already explained why this wouldn't be ok (it's too quick in case you missed my above points).

It's not adding up. I don't see how you say there's a possible team then take one of the persons on that team's post and say it had good points. If you thought there was a possible team, why would you even consider one of those people on that team that their post would be good advise or points? Shouldn't you take it with a large grain of salt? You would if you were town.

While you may never listen to those you suspect (since apparently you're never wrong?) there's plenty of town motivation to try to allow people you're suspicious of to clear themselves or dig themselves a bigger hole. Why else do suspects change from day to day? Cause *townies* often look at different things, and gauge how scummy those actions look. If nobody was willing to change their mind, how many lynches do you really think would occur? You pressing this obviously scummy outlook is another rather clear sign that you're scum as well.

Ok, on to what I had to lol at. 322 (where cruelty and MMan start to go after "lurkers are anti-town, what is prodding lurkers then?") has MMan saying that prodding lurkers is pro-town. in 336 China goes off and pokes d3x and Jason for lurking as well. I view this as a bad attempt to do something that at the very least a null-tell (according to cruel) all the way to pro-town (according to MMan).

Normally, I would've let this go, but china's post 374 shows a pattern for me. Skruffs in 364 (same page, page 15) says that the flip should be huge for everybody, to go back and look for connections because that's what somebody pro-town would do (essentially). 374 has China going back to do exactly that; in what I would classify as a blatant attempt to look good in the players of a pro-town player.

Finally:

MM: Cruelty is entirely right in the fact it is not crazy scummy to be suspicious of you and someone you are suspicious of. I hadn't really thought too much about what other roles might be out there, but if he is taking that into consideration, his suspicion of you and someone you are suspicious of makes sense if there are other non-town roles. Would you agree? Also, you unvote and FoS: Scien. I'm assuming this is mainly due to ZEE's ISO post. Then you later Vote him. Here's my problem with this....

you unvoted ZEE and then picked up his top suspect on one post from him. He didn't answer any questions you and others had for him, but you unvote him based on his scumhunt? What if you were right and he was scum?! Would anything in his ISO be worth a dump in the toilet? Anything at all? It doesn't sit right with me.

It's opportunistic to switch back and forth so freely. Also, the fact that he put you at the top of his town list makes it look a little like buddying to me. He's the only one who's said your actions are towny, and tbh, I can't tell where he's getting it from. Let's look at what has stood out about you as I see it:

This section bothers me the most. MMan voted for ZEEnon for *lurking*. ZEE explained that he didn't have access, and would post. That was the point of MMan's vote. With his stance that lurkers are scummy/anti-town; this makes perfect sense for him to vote for a lurker, and retract this after said person promises to post. It's not about suspicion, and your characterization of it as such is rather blatant scum. Also, with Skruffs post (and your 374 that I had to lol at); you have direct evidence from *this game* that a scum flip can cause plenty of connections, but (and I might not see it here) China didn't even try to explain how Raiv's actions tie into MMan. Then you say that a scum flip says nothing about the rest of the game? Bull****. You're scum, as well as Scien, and this post has probably 5x more than needed for me to vote you instantly too.

[Amished]

@Monkey: Do you fully believe that there's only 2 scum total then? And only 1 left?

[Amished]

Obviously. Who is your number one connection with Raiv then since he'd be 1 scum out of a possible 2 scum game?

[Amished]

Bolded are my answers

if you're not willing to vote for somebody at that point, especially when you're *not voting for anybody*; it looks extremely suspicious

Why?

Because if you're willing to make a case against somebody, and don't vote them it looks extremely like buddying. In the meantime, after your case against them (while you wait) you can bring up something else and vote for that instead of your case. You put "pressure" on them without putting them in danger of a lynch, and if they flip scum, you can go back and point to the fact that you had a case on them before anybody else. Why wouldn't it be scummy to not vote who you're putting a case together on?

you could always switch to whoever you want to vote for later depending on results

I'd end up at the same place eventually regardless.

Not necessarily (see above)

If scum realises someone is lurking, it's in their best interest to draw attention to this as well - it takes the heat off them.

This is only applicable where the scum have heat *on them*

Again, why? Surely it is in the best interest of scum to provide town with a legitimate target regardless of whether or not they themselves are currently under suspicion? Distracting town from scumhunting active players through what you're calling pro-town concerns with lurkers is hugely beneficial regardless of what's happening in-game. Strongly disagree with you here.

I thought I went through why this could be very harmful as scum. If the lurker is a scumbuddy, you're unnecessarily drawing attention to your partner if the town is on a townie (pretty obvious) and I've seen plenty of lurkers come back and look incredibly townie, making them a threat to the scum by reducing the number of suspects and possibly allowing the previous lurker to get a read on scum and peg them as such.

Yes, the lurker could become a town lynch, but often times unless there's enough people committed to a lurker lynch (very rarely the case) you'll just be bringing in somebody that could turn the table on a potential no-lynch while at the very least you're promoting activity, which is strictly anti-scum.

In 324, you go from it being a null-tell to being scummy.

No I didn't. I don't think pointing out lurkers is pro-town, because it benefits both town and scum. I think claiming that oneself is pro-town is scummy; this should really be apparent through ones actions.

Heh, you should see my latest newbie game. Raivann was there, and proclaimed himself obvtown all through the day, when he was a vanilla townie. I thought the same thing that you did, as town, and luckily we ended up finding the scum despite my best efforts to get him lynched.

For it to be OMGUS, it has to actually be a good point.

Uh, not really. Attacking someone because they attacked you is OMGUS. The actual quality of the attack is really irrelevant (as long as the attack is legitimate, weak case or not).



I see what you're saying, I just don't really agree with you. I think MM has been behaving strangely (scummy), and I don't think he's as pro-town as he (and you) would have the rest of us believe.

Ok, put somebody else in a hypothetical situation attacking you. They have an extremely weak point (say they're seriously voting you and advocating your lynch through you not placing a random vote in the RVS.) Would you not attack them for something so weak? Is it still scummy OMGUS? Or are you just defending yourself as town?

As d3x correctly pointed out, deadline is tomorrow and we need a lynch. MMan at 4 (which I 100% do not agree with) and Scien at 3 are probably our top two choices.

Right now, you better have your vote on one or the other. A no-lynch is absolutely the worst possible play right now.

Fuzzy, you stop waiting for ZEE to post and post something of your own or I'll not stop attacking you til you're lynched.

Skruffs, Jason, we need you both around.

Cruel, China, d3x, I want you to comment on my defense of MMan, tell me if it sways you at all, why, and if you agree or disagree on my view of Scien.

[Amished]

@Monkeyman: Is there a reason you're being so antagonistic?

Back to game related issues: In what scenarios (good logic vs. good logic, good vs. bad and bad vs. bad) do you view which role as town? Why?

[Amished]

@Amished: You asked those of us on MM's wagon to give you thoughts on your defense of MM. First off, why do you feel the need to defend MM? Secondly, I felt overall that the post was almost more of a pre-case on cruelty than a defense of MM. Thirdly I don't see why some of your points would make someone more town. If anything pointing them out is a null tell as anyone could google a list of pro-town mafia-scum tells and list them as the opportunity arises. Things like:

-MMan's post in 320 (bottom of page 13) where he stated that bringing out lurkers is pro-town; personally I agree with him.

-325: MMan points out that he feels having your vote on somebody is better than withholding your vote if you think somebody is scummy, and I would have to agree with him.

Also, you didn't address some of my main concerns with MM. Things like him putting tags on his posts saying what he is doing it a pro-town action. Also, your second post in game was "Heh, thinking back, I've seen all three as scum, Monkey twice as scum. Good deal. Page 8". This was referring to you looking at the top suspects only due to just joining the game and being close to deadline. Did the few things you posted in MM's defense take away the initial read you had on MM?

I addressed my thoughts on your scien case.

@China: I felt he was being wagoned for weak and irrational reasons. I'm not sold on cruel yet, but I'm leaning more towards town for him, and I see townies tunnel more often than scum (though I have seen scum tunnel, this doesn't look like that occurance). I remember pushing a weak as hell case on another townie back in the day, and got NK'd for WIFOM purposes while allowing the scum to sit back and get a perfect victory out of it. So while I see detrimental effects to cruel's tunneling, I don't see the hallmarks of scum play in his tunneling and I wanted him to calm down and look at it with a new view (look to my first "suggestion" to him). It's definitely not a precase on him, as I think Scien will flip scum, and there will be more information there to make a case instead of going off of a non-flip.

To your third point in your opening paragraph (don't see why it's pro-town): Ignore him pointing it out. Town can do it too. I feel it's bad play on both sides, but it's irrelevant. You see the actions as pro-town, so they should be, right? You said that him stating it is a null-tell, why wouldn't they be pro-town for you?

Before I completed my readthrough, I wanted everyone to know that I've seen Scien as scum, Monkeyman as scum twice. I pegged them in all three of those situations, so I kinda know how they play (doubly so MMan) as scum. When I didn't see his scumslips that have trapped him before, there were two possiblities: either he smarted up as scum, or he's town. As I could see where he was coming from (especially with the very early looking for scum roles.)

Finally, to my points for you.

So, you unvoted, 12 hours to deadline. Do you think not voting again (when you've said that my points make a lot of sense) will help with a deadline lynch? At this point, I honestly don't even care if people don't read the thread and vote for one of them while flipping a coin. We *need* a lynch and withholding your vote while being around early is bad.

Also, the parts where I had to "lol" was at your posts. Yes, the action is pro-town. However, why didn't you do those actions sooner? The only reason I can see is that you're scum, not doing much to advance the game, and when various people say something is pro-town you jump on it and say to yourself "Oh, this will help my status with these people for doing something they said was pro-town after the fact". You doing this once probably wouldn't have drawn a comment from me, but the fact that you did it twice in the space of ... 3-4 pages? is extremely suspect.

[Amished]

^

hehehehe, if you only knew what happened after page 16...

[Amished]

I think it's only a little over 7 to deadline.

Waiting this close to vote (if people actually come around) is cutting it close. I try for a lynch just a couple days before (depending on the day) as it gives the most time, while still being able to scrutinize votes "at deadline" without actually having it loom over our freaking heads.

[Amished]

Not really. Typically self-voting is an extreme scumtell (townies voting for only the people that they *know* are town does not follow at all) but a no-lynch is bad enough for a townie to be able to.

I refer you to the "Being a good IC" wiki page (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... _a_good_IC) and go to the self-voting/hammering. I think it's been changed since I've been here, but the only time an IC *could* self-hammer (and not get barred from being an IC ever again) is to avoid a no-lynch.

I've self-hammered as scum well before the deadline to stifle discussion, but as this point it's kinda moot.

In this circumstance (IMO): null-tell.

[Amished]

If I post my thoughts, I want you to say yours first so you can't parrot me or say "oh, that's logical too" and then just sheep to whatever I say. (this is regarding Scien's recent posts, etc..)

[Amished]

As town: He's providing where his suspicions lie while working on catching up. Shows an extraordinary amount of devotion (which is extremely rare). The hitch is that town don't want themselves to be lynched, so his vote on the competing wagon (while not particularly agreeing with it) is natural and logical. Realizes that if lynched, he wants his suspicions out there as eloquently as possible for tomorrow after the mislynch and NK.

As scum: We've already discussed scum trying to buss their partners when under pressure, and honestly it's in the best interests of scum to create confusion if possible to throw the rest of the town off track. There's one quote in here that makes me feel that this is the option that is happening, so I'm not particularly paying attention to Scien's posts, but I will overnight after the reveal if we're wrong.

Looking for his quote now, I've seen it today. BBS.

[Amished]

We have time... let me catch up...
If only for the value of my comments before I flip.

This was the entire quote.

The reason this tripped my senses is that as VT (which he claimed, I wasn't expecting otherwise tbh) his opinions and viewpoints are no more valid than the rest of ours. His comments wouldn't really affect much as he's as much in the dark as we are, and without really seeing his point of view it'd be hard to base anything on what he's said (and basic human psychology, we always believe our point to be more important than anybody else's). So after a VT flip, we really wouldn't look at what he's said as he won't be NK'd (he's under too much pressure and almost getting to a lynch; scum def. want to keep him around, not going to assume more than 1 killing role yet).

As scum, though: the value of his comments are to throw us red herrings, possibly with a bit of truth in there to help his partner out the most he can. He knows that when he flips scum, we'll look for connections in his comments. That's where true value would lie for him.

---

Also, one other thing smelled fishy to me: He unvotes ZEEnon for

Oh, and Unvote since you addressed my questions, and I don't really find you scummy I suppose.

while then going on to make sure that he's questioned for his activities (casting him {ZEEnon} in a negative light, and is subtle enough to not be picked up on right away, while after closer scrutiny it would be).

[Amished]

Ok, I'll give you {Scien, everybody} a brief synopsis of the point that I'm addressing, and answer it (this is all from 514):

Ok, so a townie thinks both sides are wrong. Wouldn't the initial "wrong" if continued be a scumtell for them? They're the one making the false accusation and not backing down on it. Regardless, one or the other person is going to make *more* sense than the other; leading them to take sides. You will never see a debate that's exactly even if you think both sides are wrong for arguing, one or the other will make a better point and you will see that and go with it over the other guy. If you can point out a town vs. town argument where both sides are wrong (at the heart of the issue, not just calling each other scum which is obviously wrong) that you don't agree with one person more than the other, I'll retract my whole case against you. Besides, if you thought both sides were wrong, you'd intervene and tell them so instead of asking them questions about it and letting it continue.

{connections to dead scum} I don't exactly understand your question here? Can you form connections between two townies? Yes. If one flips VT, then you know that they could just be on the same wavelength, but there's no game-oriented partnering there, other than scum buddying. If there's a cop buddying to a person, and the cop dies, then you can basically know that the cop has an innocent on said person. That's the point of scum buddying, to form false connections between them and townies to mask their real connections. The real connections are still there, but I will admit to seeing the false connections at times. I haven't seen enough *really solid* play from Raiv to believe that he'd be as subtle about it as opposed to a Tar, PJ, Adel, or any other known good scumhunter you have come across.

{Raiv leaving a growing wagon to buss a scumpartner} I think you said the reason why this is unlikely in your question. It's a growing wagon. Also, I want to point to the exclusivity of his {Raiv's} question. Raiv asked you {scien} if you would support him. He named you {scien} as a top suspect and voted for you. Then he switches 100% to ask if you would vote for somebody he's suspicious of, when you had your vote on him as well (thank you for admitting your mistake that you were on Raiv at the time). A townie wouldn't ask somebody who's voting for them (because they're scummy) to vote with them on another lynch to save the ass of the scummy "townie"; they'd ask their partner because they'd expect you {Scien} to back them up. Raiv also didn't ask ZEE either, he asked you. Why not ask both of you? That's the point I'm making here.

{getting him to talk was paramount} You've stated this twice. so it's clearly a big deal in your interactions with Raiv. You also state that you kinda had to baby him along to answer your questions. I don't (and didn't) see a need to baby him. Good cop/bad cop isn't going to work in a forum setting. You can ask very specific questions til he answers the way you want, you don't need to help him along.

(When you refer to my ISO 14, obviously I don't agree since I think it was scummy of you. If I thought it was pro-town of you, I wouldn't have brought it up in a case against you).

{coaching when using a vote} I can't disagree more with you here. A vote is a way to express that you think they're scum (or need to post for being anti-town, which is almost the same thing). Coaching is telling them what they've done wrong and what they need to explain while giving them time to do so (being polite). A vote (in my book, I don't often vote for lurkers) is telling said person to die because they've acted scummy. I view this is why a vote becomes more powerful the longer a game goes on, and I don't often cast votes without valid reason. I see voting for somebody as an hostile act. To be hostile and vote, then to be nice and tell them "oh, here's what I find suspicious, could you get to that when you have a moment" (heavily paraphrased, but the feeling I get with the post I accused you of coaching in) shows a dichotomy that isn't easily explained from a townie perspective.

{quote about miswording/making look more pro-town} Ahh, that makes more sense. Point retracted, I thought the 2nd paragraph was concerning Raiv's "fuzzy = town" misspeak.

{ISO 22; skruffs good questions, sciens "bad" answers} Skruffs asks very pointed answers, and your questions sound like "ooh, I dunno, probably because of this, but I don't want to sound too harsh to draw more criticism from you {skruffs}" Every response from you there sounded like you were pillowfighting to not look like you were being too hard on anybody, or trying to use a misunderstanding in some way. Skruffs questions were direct, to the point, and asked exactly what he wanted to ask. That's why his questions were good.

Also on the ISO 22 point: your breakdown of skruff's post in the middle looked a lot like Mastin as scum. Line by line is extremely ineffective, and allowed you to dodge a point of skruffs (IMO). Also, your ridiculing of Skruffs position on you by saying you're alike to both ask questions is antagonistic, while also belittling all of his concerns towards you into one argument that is weak. From here out, you get a lot more offensive *towards* skruffs, and your change of heart during the post looks like you've found a new target to try to mislynch.

{Town "slip"} You're right, I do know that, and it's not the crux of my argument/point in that spot. I know some people put a lot of weight on slips of the tongue, and I'm pointing out where you might've done just that. I personally don't take much stock in them, but some do. Also, by focusing on the slip part and not the Raiv bussing you part, makes me think I'm right about this as well.

{ISO 34, question about modkill + ending the day} I state that you'd be more likely to ask if a modkill would end the day as scum than town. Town would relish the chance to not lose a lynch, get a scum dead and look for connections with dead scum. Scum would see the connections with the dead partner and want to end it immediately to lick their wounds, stop discussion and use their NK to hopefully steer away from the partner, or use the time to plan with each other and work on a false connection.

{ISO 34 cont. Happy/unhappy} Read your "Number two, do I detect a whiff that you are happy about this? " question with the emphasis on "happy". Or just ask your question with "this" substituted with the actual scenario: "Number two, do I detect a whiff that you are happy about (scum getting modkilled and allowing us to look for connections)?

First off, you should be extremely happy, and the way you phrased your question sounds like you're asking them why they're happy about it (when it should be obvious). Secondly, it's like a free day-vig. You kill the person you think is most scummy, and you're happy about it either way. If scum, yay! If town, well, there's the biggest distraction gone, but we can still talk about reactions to the scummy person and who made the weakest case on them, etc. It's actually an extremely powerful tool, and one that you should have been happy about either way, regardless of alignment, especially if your vote was on him (and he was at L-2? or something close to there).

[Amished]

slow ninja'd:

I thought you would play more cautiously as PR. Your play as a whole didn't look like somebody who had anything more to play for (night action, etc..) I look at my serious subjects in that light to evaluate fake claims that might come up in deadline situations.

Otherwise I think you're either misinterpreting or misrepresenting the point I was trying to make. As VT, you know nothing is concrete (which was conceded), and that's it. Then you would know that your responses don't really have a value, and we have to interrogate the reasons behind your lynch ourselves, as we can't continue on your track as we have no idea where you were going in the first place. Value signals that there's something more there that's not being revealed.

Side note: It's not always prudent to ignore the possibilities of day actions. I've been in a game where there was a guy with a day action that came out on D1.

[Amished]

{MM vs. M fight} But you already said that both were stretching like town. You've now altered your stance to "waiting to see if the already bad logic got worse". How much worse could it have gotten for you to step in? GAH

{connections to dead scum} RAIV. IS. DEAD. Look for connections to him. That's why I went through his iso, saw ZEEnon's posts *about Raiv's ISO* right after that and focused on you for having such a connection to him.

{ISO 14/babying/coaching} The way you rephrased your questions made it pretty obvious what you were looking for in an answer. That's what I mean by coaching, and the way you worded them wasn't something that'd stick out and get a response from my POV.

{line by line/mastin related/"attack" of skruffs} You've played with Mastin though, this much I know. I'm referring to the way he takes each line, and then takes them out of context at times, especially as scum (well, the way I saw him he was scum fakeclaiming cop with a guilty so =\). I believe it was point #3 that made sense when you took it with the rest of the paragraph, but you went "WAHH? That doesn't make sense!" (paraphrased) when it did. This looked intentional, and dodging a question that you clearly saw.

Look at that post. Early on, you were soft with Skruffs, but by the end of the post you were getting more and more abrasive with your responses. This looks like an attempt to eventually set up a way to attack skruffs later down the road (and looked a little OMGUSy, but that's my POV again. I encourage everyone to read ISO 22 and see if you see what I'm saying.)

{Raivann modkill/flip/continuation}The whole affair after Raivann was modkilled looked staged and extremely cheesy. As long as the thread isn't closed, I can post is my take on things (and alive, of course). Your {Scien} reactions looked the most staged out of all of them, and there's no need for staging unless you already knew the outcome of the flip.

Regarding dayvigs (or vigs in general): They're there to get rid of scummy players that the town doesn't have enough lynches for. To do this during a day has been argued to be much more accurate than during the night (irrelevant to this discussion) but one of the points is that during the day, people have time to talk about the flip after the death, without NKs to stifle discussion. That's how I'm viewing this particular modkill, like an accurate dayvig. I love dayvigs. I should really put them in all my games, but I need to finishing modding *a* game first, then I can have fun.

As such, I'm happy about a dayvig in this scenario, and here's why: Raiv was clearly the scummiest player active. Vigging him (if scum) is obviously beneficial as he's scum, and then everyone can go back and look for connections without a NK. Vigging him (if town) allows us to be rid of a distraction (I saw a sig once: we lynch him and he's {Zwet} scum, and yay, we got scum; otherwise: yay, we got zwet!) which is extremely similar to this scenario. We get to all analyze a large wagon on a townie, and look to see who was overly opportunistic on the wagon. And then we have a chance to lynch those scummiest for it as well. Both scenarios are extremely pro-town. That's why you should be happy with said flip, regardless of alignment.

Finally, I'd like to note the feeling I've gotten that the more I argue/back and forth with Scien, the further we're getting from my original points, which is extremely unsettling. I don't like this feeling at all, and I understand how I'd feel it from accusing scum, I don't if Scien flips town.

[Amished]

The only way that you'll *not* get that is if either ZEE or MMan are NK'd, in which case it'd be pretty irrelevant.

[Amished]

As long as he has 5 votes on him, yes. I thought d3x was on MM but switched, but I could be thinking of somebody else. If d3x wasn't on MM, then Scien's vote would put him at L-1 as well.

[Amished]

@Dizzle: It's pure accountability. There were signs that people were going to hop off the Raiv wagon, and there's no way anybody was going to know that Raiv would go and get himself modkilled. Scum want to try to avoid being held to a fact as much as they possibly can, and the amount of attention that MMan drew from saying that he wants his vote out there (which a lot of people do view as a good way to go about it, I rarely unvote without placing my vote somewhere else) put so much spotlight on him because of that, I don't see how scum would benefit form that.

[Amished]

@Scien: The final "point" is that this feeling is really weird, and something I would classify as scummy as well.

Also, I have to lol at your initial responses (mman/manz is tvt; along with all your reasoning for it) and then MMan is 2nd at your scumlist just due to you feeling you need to back up your vote on him rather than the understandable me vs. him reason.

[Amished]

@Cruel: Because he's the other wagon and I do feel he's town. I don't want my town read lynched, while I do want my scum read lynched.

I believe d3x unvoted -> voted scien in 488

so he's not on MMan, but on Scien.

[Amished]

Sorry Monkey, I have been in hospital yet again and only out.. I am in rehab for a few injuries and ended up ripping a muscle in my leg, which ironically was not my bad leg so now I have to walk with pressure on my origionally bad leg.

but lets make the deadline interesting eh?

vote: Monkeyman

I said in my last post I felt he was scum.

1) Your last post was 2 days ago saying you've been getting caught up (are you?)

2) You didn't say that you thought Monkey is scum. You said you were unsure. Quoted here:

gonna try my best to get caught up again, I am a few pages behind, still in and out of hospital and drugged up at the best of times, all while trying to play more than one game.

but still am not sure on Monkey, Hopefully a catch up will make my mind up fully.

Hopefully by tomorrow afternoon I will be caught up again.

Why lie, and why push a vote away from Scien?

[Amished]

why push a vote away from Scien?

Cuz he didn't want to hammer early?

Have to answer for JasonT?

[Amished]

Well, one thing's for damn sure. Tomorrow is going to have a hell of a lot of information to go over.

*ping*

Anyways:
@Jason: your long post that you referenced was 12 days ago. To put that in context: Raivann was STILL ALIVE. Nothing that's happened or that you've seen catching up swayed your opinion on either of them?

You did lie by stating that your last post had your opinion that Monkey was scum. You said you couldn't get a read on him, yet now you vote for him?

[Amished]

So you still felt the need to answer for him?

[Amished]

@Jason: it must be a northern ireland thing, but where I come from not sure means you have no idea (i.e. you're not sure one way or the other). That's where I got your lie comment from.

Also, did you see Raiv distancing himself from MMan to solidify your vote? Where?

[Amished]

@dizzle: You mean how Monkey had plenty of time to answer for himself and I said what I felt his defense said and you didn't even give Jason a chance to answer? Ok.

[Amished]

@dizzle: You mean how Monkey had plenty of time to answer for himself and I said what I felt his defense said and you didn't even give Jason a chance to answer? Ok.

One last time. Jason has not been a reliable discussion participant and Scien's deadline was fast approaching.

And he couldn't answer, say... tomorrow if he wasn't around ?

Why would it be a problem to ask this question of Amished?

HoS:MM

I'd Vote you if would count for tomorrow tonight.

What question?

Amished, I would also like your thoughts on MM's post lynch twilight play.

Gladly, as soon as he explains his own motivations. I don't want to give him an out that I might see if he doesn't and is scum.

[Amished]

Oh, found the question:

First off, if it's town, look at the wagon. Guarantee scum on it.

This will be from my point of view, and this shouldn't sway anybody.

Scien 6: ZEEnon (302), MonkeyMan576 (407), Amished (424), Chinaman (511), dvx (489), Scien (590).

ZEE/MMan I've gotten a town read from a decent amount of their play;while MMan's placement here is bound to be obvious regardless of alignment. Me is obvious, Scien will reveal town on flip, so there's China and d3x. (not sure why coug has you at dvx..)

China's buddying up to me is highly disturbing, and in the case of 3 scum total, I can see one being on, and one being off. d3x I need a greater read, but nothing had really thrown me onto your scent yet.

Honestly I'm pretty confident in my town reads of MMan and ZEEnon, so I'm really looking at China (who I've already expressed severe concerns over) and d3x (who I've not really looked at that closely, but hasn't set off any major bells or whistles).

The amount of chain-lynching going on here is alarming, so that's another thing that I really want to look at. Lately drizzle has been looking worse, and I'm neutral on JasonT (exploring that miscommunication of "not sure" etc..).

Off wagon: Dizzle (316), cruelty (361), Fuzzyman (533), jasonT1981 (568) , skruffs

Commented on dizzle, cruel's tunneling reads town, weak scum read on fuzzy, neutral jason, town skruffs (though wondering why flaked)

@Dizzle: So you know what's going through Jason's mind? If he replies tomorrow, I feel confident enough to see a revisionist excuse if I see one. Him replying is much more important than you replying for anyone.

[Amished]

So in order:

~scum~
China
Dizzle
Fuzzy
d3x
Jason
cruelty
MMan
Skruffs
ZEEnon

@d3x: Is there anything more that you'd like to know that I haven't answered?

[Amished]

Yeah, you {jason} answered, but now I'm questioning why dizzle didn't think you could answer for yourself.

[Amished]

Also: if Scien lied about flipping town, do you see all the confusion that's being caused by it? He's dead, and if scum, really still has no reason to tell the truth about his flip.

[Amished]

@Dizzle: My question was why would you want to push it away from Scien (possibly I was wrong about China being paired with Scien/Raiv) and Jason was scum instead. I was hoping for an answer that could give me a clue. You put your scrunched bulldog nose into things and ruined it, making me question if it's you answering for your scumbuddy Jason.

tl; dr version: If you can't see the point of a question and it's not directed at you, butt out.

[Amished]

I simply meant that with an hour left 2 people where going to be on L-1, and something would have to give either way. it would have been interesting to see if anyone jumped votes to make a hammer.

Don't you think that would've been extremely obvious? Outing two scum instead of one that *might* be lynched?

[Amished]

@Dizzle: d3x's 600 has started more confusion than MMan's post. check fax plz. MMan's *point* (not question) (599) was one I would've said had I thought about it.

[Amished]

@Dizzle (again, ninja'd): Am I supposed to go through all possible scummy answers for a question I might ask you or somebody else in the future? I'm not doing it if that's what you're really asking.

[Amished]

True.

BTW: this has been the most frantic and enjoyable twilight I've ever seen, even without a couple players.

[Amished]

Yes, the stating that people will be tunneling on MMan is giving me huge cause for concern.

Like I was telling Dizzle; 599 is a good post, and one I would've asked. Your confusion over it started a lot of what's happened.

to follow up, since I felt Rai and Monkey where scum, and Rai dead and flipped scum, my Monkey vote makes sense does it not?

But you're ignoring Scien's buddying of Raivann.

Nobody can deny that scum do slightly buddy their partners at times. With the evidence I posted between Scien and Raiv, that was a huge chunk of what shaped this end of day scenario, and Jason didn't comment on it at all. There's a multitude of reasons for it, and something that should be sniffed down.

[Amished]

@Dizzle:

While we still have twilight left, and assuming that Scien flips Town, what are your thoughts/reactions, Amished?

If you're assuming Scien flips town, why did you vote for him?

While not something I would've asked, as there's a clear answer for it (and had d3x replied with said answer, none of this would've started). d3x did have a deciding vote in this scenario, and his unvote and vote of scien helped make it even possible that scien was going to be lynched. While under normal circumstances voting for somebody you think is town is a scumtell; these are far from normal circumstances so it's a stupid question rather than a scummy one.

@Fuzzy: While I did a scum-town list because I expect to be NK'd, why did you? However, this provides pretty solid evidence and plenty to question; particularly your town half of the list. I don't expect anyone else to post something like that either.

[Amished]

oh!

@Cruel: What're 3 single adjectives that you would use to describe this twilight phase?

[Amished]

*sigh*

1) Do you think you're the only one that is able to do anything at night (other than the scum that can kill)?

2) Would you want to wait til you could actually use the info to ... you know.. condemn somebody?

....

[Amished]

EBWOP: The point I was trying to make to cruelty at the end of the day with the 3 adjectives is that it was extremely hectic (stupid could've been one, so I wanted him to use 3).

To then use "ignoring posts" as a further point against MMan when it was so chaotic and hectic is blatantly ignoring the situation in which missing posts/questions happened. I think we had like 2-3 pages in an *hour*. Say 60 posts in that hour, to keep it simple. Was anyone really able to keep up with a post a minute if they're trying to type out any sort of responses? I know I couldn't keep up and I could only kinda sort out what was going on after the thread was locked.

However, I will start this off with a vote, as I think China's buddying towards me and scummy behavior are well worth a vote as well. Clearly, I'm almost sure people will be all over MMan, but I want every vote to be explained in your own words and opinions.

Vote: Chinaman

[Amished]

@d3x: Thank you for slowing down a bit. I can understand concern, I just saw a ton of weak cases brought against MMan, and that made me extremely suspicious. Also, you were around during that initial MMan/Manz debate. Did/do you think that MMan was town *just based on that fight*?

[Amished]

Since I have no idea what MMan knows, I'm telling him to wait for a little bit (like even an hour if necessary) and think about it. If it can be used now; post it. If it can be used to catch somebody in a lie, then wait a bit. However; with him saying "I have night info, derp" (paraphrased) I'm pretty sure the scum can make a pretty good guess as to what it is; and won't be caught up by it. I'm telling him to use his *best* judgment that isn't rash (clearly he responses poorly when rushing anything; I've used pressure to out him as scum in our last game together; so I want him to think about it).

The only thing that bugs me is the 2 week deadlines. It's extremely short compared to what I'm used to playing; so to have plenty of time to analyze what he says as true or false, it needs to come out sooner rather than later.

[Amished]

Also, @China: you should've taken advantage of the 2 days during night when nobody was posting. Unless you were talking to your partner and couldn't .... *cough cough* Need to reevaluate where I stand on other likely scum suspects too; Scien stood out the most to me from Raiv, so either Raiv never talked about his scumbuddies or mentioned them rarely (which is most of the town). I wish I could analyze him better because of it, but I'll get over it.

[Amished]

@MMan: Thinking about it. Trying to go over the possibilities. Wait an hour, I'll be around then too. I don't want you to give any hints about who it could pertain to either.

[Amished]

How would you rate your confidence level that it's condemning?

[Amished]

Well, in this case the day just started like an hour ago; so it's likely he hasn't been on to check it yet. A PM would be nice though.

[Amished]

Ok. I'm leaning towards revealing it tonight. How late will you be on so that I know how much time I have to change my mind if necessary?

[Amished]

Fair enough.

[Amished]

@d3x: I went back and I'm not sure if *I* know which question you want to ask MMan. Though I think he should've went to look last night what questions were against him.

As for China, after I replaced in, he buddied me pretty hardcore. For his scumminess that I see; refer to ISO 12 of *me*.

The reason for my banter with MMan today is because I also have some knowledge of what happened last night, but it doesn't condemn anybody.

Screw it, I want to brag a bit; and I think it might help MMan make up his mind if I'm reading the signs correctly (which I believe I am). I am a doctor who can self protect. Clearly I protected myself last night, and unless there's another way for somebody to block a kill; I'm certain that I was targeted. I'm betting that MMan is a watcher or tracker (more likely watcher) who watched me and saw somebody "visit" me last night. Since we have one "correct lynch" (the modkill) and one mislynch; I don't feel like we're anywhere near lylo and can test MMan's claim; which should help everyone feel much better.

With what I'm assuming MMan's information is; we can test to see if he's lying (which I don't believe) and help to convince everybody that he's pro-town as bussing his last partner for *him* to live rather than his partner bussing him and living til endgame is a rather low probability.

Anything more you'd like to ask?

On my behalf, I'd ask that you repost the question, and where you initially posted it so we can all look at the timeline of questioning by you.

[Amished]

mmmm, ninja'd somebody else for once!

[Amished]

@Dizzle: Nobody died. Unless there's a cautious vig out there (doubt it) everybody else should've killed. SK's generally *act* like a vig to set up a late game safeclaim "hey, look, i've been shooting scummy people" so I'm pretty certain that there's only 1 kill out there (scum's NK).

As I doubt the possibility of more than one protective role, and there was no kill; the said claimed protective role (me) is the reason for no-kill. Since said protective role protected himself; himself would've been the target.

It's a pretty obvious target, but you don't really expect a watcher or tracker in a game. With what I'm guessing MMan is and what I figure happened, this way will allow him to come out with his 85% damning evidence as he's not risking pulling out a power role with the information. And why wouldn't I come out after a night like that? A self protecting doc can pretty much live indefinitely.

After MMan claims (if he does) I have a question for him.

[Amished]

This is actually the second time I've gotten one.

[Amished]

Here is the link to my other game with one. I was the caretaker (and actually I could protect 2 other people beside myself in *that* game. The role PM is in the post I linked to.

[Amished]

I was going to claim immediately after I saw that night result because I wanted to rub it in the scum's face; but with you talking about you having night actions that (most likely) condemned somebody; I waited a bit.

I could've claimed bulletproof to make myself look better, but I'm not and it would have been a lie so I didn't. I *can* protect other people, but I could also protect myself if I so chose. I had to ask the mod cause I thought that's what my PM said, but I thought it was too good to be true.

Ok, 614. Got it. I got a timeline and a reasonable explanation, but I want MMan to answer the question in 614 (which actually starts with d3x's questioning of me in 609)

MMan: would you please stop being a stubborn mule and just answer the question?

[Amished]

I claimed my self-protecting doc D1 in the other game I linked to to help protect another pro-town power role. If that's not a meta of a weird role, I don't know what is. I'll find the post for you though.

[Amished]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... start=1062

Naomi_Saotome (sp?) claimed Trilby in that theme game. I thought that she was telling the truth, but in case she wasn't I claimed so that the town would have more information if anybody decided to counter-claim her without having to worry about dying that night as I could protect the real trilby as well as myself.

I can't protect more than one person here, but with MMan's hinting at damning evidence I want the information out there so it can be evaluated and move on from there. I explained why I thought his hints pertained to me and this way he can come out with his information without having to worry about outing another power role that's a common concern when coming out with your own power.

Also, fake-claiming on D2 is hard to pull off as scum and have it work out; so him claiming now is a point in his favor IMO.

(also, because I think this might jog MMan's memory a bit more, the original question that d3x asked me was in 609):

While we still have twilight left, and assuming that Scien flips Town, what are your thoughts/reactions, Amished?

[Amished]

OMG MMan. Here's the timeline, and what d3x is trying to ask (I think)

Why would it be a problem to ask this question of Amished? -snip-

which referred back to your question to me here:

While we still have twilight left, and assuming that Scien flips Town, what are your thoughts/reactions, Amished?

In the meantime (the action that caused you to question MM) was in 610.

If you're assuming Scien flips town, why did you vote for him?

Why would it be a problem to ask this question of Amished?

614 is what he wants you to answer, and the pertinent question to me is in 609.

[Amished]

I'm banking on the fact that fake-claims are immensely hard to follow through on throughout the rest of the game. For example: a game that recently finished (Mafia 100 in New York) DeathNote, Hewitt and SnowWhite all tried to fakeclaim. Snow White was lynched instantly, Hewitt the next day and DeathNote the day after. Successful scum fakeclaims are exceedingly rare when carried out the entirety of the day.

Even take Chzo mafia that I linked to. Steph pulled off a successful fakeclaim (I contest that I should've made the town win on the last day, I got screwed over) and was caught through that. Sooner or later they crack or say something that doesn't make sense. Claims sooner rather than later harm scum probably 100 times more often than it helps scum.

[Amished]

How do scum benefit from not killing? They don't. Not on N1 at least.

They need to whittle down our numbers as fast as possible without getting caught. As scum, you can't just assume that a doc will protect whoever you're gonna shoot. Hell, it's more likely that you're worried about getting investigated and need to kill to get rid of those you think are a threat to you.

Scum not NK'ing on N1 makes about as much sense as a nipple on a guy.

[Amished]

They first have to assume that a doc is in the setup. In most common setups if there's a doc, there's a cop and to allow the cop an extra investigation (or a watcher to .. you know.. watch the claimed doc) will out the scum too, while delaying their objective of whittling down the town. A watcher *or* a cop break this wide open, and allow a power role another chance to find them.

[Amished]

Still, if they're trying to out a doc by not NK'ing; it's a 50/50 risk. If they don't NK, they allow a cop to get another night to clear or condemn somebody. They give just as much information to a cop as themselves.

[Amished]

@Dizzle: 718 has been the best attack of MMan that I've seen yet; and it has me doubting myself. However, I want to see this claim since that'll most likely be a large point of reference and a way to help prove his alignment one way or another.

@China: Most of your points are weaker than a toothpick trying to hold up a barn. It's posts like that that made me think that MMan is town. Seriously, go through; I can pretty much show how a good 60% are utterly ridiculous attacks; or just IIoA and not contributing to the game.

@cruelty: I have a bit more here, so I'm breaking it up into paragraphs.

1) Under any normal circumstances, a town to scum list is anti-town at best. However, I did it as more of a full town manipulation, and I didn't want interference on it (fuzzy did gain scumpoints for posting it though). This will also tie into the "die at night" lie.

Let me explain the full scenario:
In the majority of my games that I play like this, I die N1 because the scum have felt that it's extremely hard for them to get me mislynched (almost a confirmed townie) and it'd be even harder for them to shake me off if/when I get on their tail. I can be an extremely dangerous townie; so I would have expected to die *without my role*

However, with my role, I wanted to manipulate the scum into targeting me because I knew I could stop a kill, but only if I guessed right. So for me to stop a mafia kill I needed to make sure I knew the biggest threat. That's the main reason I played D1 the way I did; hounding everyone about everything looking for inconsistencies. I had to make myself look like the biggest threat I could; so defending another player so hardcore (which pure odds say is pro-town) while also ending up pushing my other suspect to a lynch makes me look more ominous than anybody as the full MMan wagon was more of a group effort. (I fully thought Scien was scum to push him that hard, obviously; and his flip surprised me).

So in making myself a threat I could try to force the scum into thinking that I'm the best NK for that night. I knew I could prevent the kill, and if there were any watchers out there, I'd be an obvious target. If there were any cops, I could protect them by proxy. Any other power role I could protect them by proxy. It was the best play to protect the rest of the town in my eyes.

If people started posting lists saying that I was on the scummy half for my defense of MMan or whatever other reason, I would look like *much less of a threat, and more of a mislynch possibility*.

I think by now we have a majority wanting MMan's full claim.

@cruel: 1 last thing: Is anti-town always scum? If you're town, do you expect to be under suspicion if you feel you're trying hard?

[Amished]

First I want to point out how absolutely hypocritical (not sure if this is the right word, but ridiculous works too I guess) it is for you to go back and start off saying that Scien's posts look like they're coming from a pro-town POV. Of course they are, *because we know he was town from the flip*. Stop pretending you thought he was town after the fact as you've basically agreed with anything I said yesterday saying that "I make a lot of sense" in more than one occasion. *That* is what we're calling buddying. Now you're trying to push yourself against a claimed town power role that really had no reason to out himself so early. The pushing a town power role that you fear I've *only* seen come from scum. I will bet my self-protecting doc life that you {china} flip scum based on this alone.

I'll get to your "timeline" in a minute. (BTW gogo IIoA)

[Amished]

Ok, so here's my evidence of:

after flip making yourself look good, your references to: post 532, 541, 549, 572/573 (saying you would've unvoted), and finally 669, which is probably the grandest of them all. It's a convoluted story that I think has you saying you thought he was obviously pro-town but he had to be hammered anyways.

Your buddying with other people after the fact: 545 (with cruel); 551 parrots what cruel said in 545 (with cruel); 560 and 566 with Fuzzy; 572/573 with d3x; 585 with Jason. This is ignoring any posts that I haven't read while going through your timeline.

Your point being weak or contradictory to another stance that you hold:

533: You state that you ISO'd fuzzy and didn't see much from him either way; but with your references to 607, you say you're going to bring up the point that I replaced somebody with no interactions to our scum. Fuzzy = one real major posts defining his stance vs. a *flaker* that turned into me where I give plenty of stances is worse for me. Got it.

This is going to be a big one:
538 you condemn WIFOM statements (by me) describing Scien's play.

589 you say that it's WIFOM, but it doesn't matter cause you want MMan lynched (which, oddly enough somewhat contradicts your reference to 570, in which you expect not to lynch MMan if something crazy happens today. I refuse to believe that you didn't read any of what happened the night before with MMan soft-claiming PR and my claiming self-protecting doc. That's pretty crazy if you ask me).

599 is complete WIFOM (who scum buddy with).

621 WIFOM about MMan distancing himself.

669: You condemn WIFOM again.

684: WIFOM about how scumbuddies would act during the day.


Blatant misrepresentations/bad "points"/points that I feel have no business coming from a townie: 630 (I have already explained why I thought ZEE and MMan to be town, and because they agree with me isn't the reason.)

679: You draw the comparison of me "coaching" mman like *scien* did with Raiv. However, you condemn me for it while in your analogy I'm taking the role of scien who flipped town and not scum. This could've been your best point against MMan, but you chose not to make it so in the effort to discredit my claim (clarification: my claim is pro-town power role. In your effort to paint me as anti-town, you're also discrediting my power role status).

684/690 together: First you'd have to assume that I wasn't active or able to tell MMan what to claim and when and how during the night phase if we were both scum. Secondly, since you've said that I've looked logical, you'd think that I'd be able to go through and make a good fake-claim for both of us to save our skin. Take a watcher/self-protecting doc (that I thought could be the most condemning of anybody else). Assuming that we're both scum, we'd be the last two. A scum-fakeclaim-watcher would then *have to lie* about who targeted me last night for the mafia kill. EVEN IF we lynch said player, MMan would then be outed as scum (1 for 1 at this point isn't logical) and be lynched the next day, with me trying to save my own ass through 2? days of mislynching without getting caught by any town power roles.

back to the first major post for other "points" that fall into the same category.

541: Saying that (rearranged a little) "If he's {MMan} is scum, MMan should lurk more." Following this line of reasoning, you feel that one of the scum are lurking, and that MMan being active leads you to believe that he's town. Good work undermining everything you've said against MMan so far. Congrats.

551: The question that *cruel* (not dizzle) asked was why I was still aggressively defending MMan. My response in 551 stated that I want my town read to live and my scum read to die. That's a perfect answer to the question and not dodging it at all.

578: I wasn't uneasy about MMan and Scien being at L-1. I was questioning why Jason (the he that's in the rest of the reference; not me) voted for one or the other when he's claimed to have what I thought was a contradictory stance and was later cleared up.

590: Sometimes optimal scum play is self-hammering. With your admittedly two games playing; I don't think you're one to lecture on mafiascum strategy, let alone condemn anybody for it.

621: I admit good points when I see them. With your views of me coaching/defending MMan even after this post; I fully expect you to retract this if you think it adds to your case against me at all.

627: You now question Dizzle when you reference 597 as "lol, i can only guess that this post ended that back and forth between dizzle and amished." Clearly you thought Dizzle had a good point, but your contradictory reference to 627 when you think he's now wrong allows you to have no stance what-so-ever and do whatever you want later on in the game.

Finally, the rest of the post is useless IIoA that wastes everybody's time and/or distracts from what actually is going on in the game. The bolded are my two most important parts about my post (IMO) and I'd like to see your {China's} and everybody else's thoughts on them after China responds.

I'll respond to 728 later if I feel I have to.

[Amished]

Ok, so I don't know about the rest of you, but if I was scum *with* China; I wouldn't want him to send in the kill. However, I've definitely been on scumteams where they want to kill due to a grudge, so there's a chance that the kill was double blocked.

@MM: Is there a restriction as to who you can roleblock?

[Amished]

I suspected I was targeted because I thought that there was no other ability to prevent me being targeted. (Pending MMan saying he's telling the truth) if China targeted somebody else, the same night result would've had it.

735 makes me much less likely to believe MMan's claim. In fact, I'm considering reversing my whole opinion of him and voting for him, though I want to think over the game first.

[Amished]

MMan, answer d3x's question already. I pointed out what he was asking so you can look at my recent posts too for said question.

[Amished]

What with MMan's claim, I believe Jason a lot more than I do MM.

1) Town roleblockers are extremely rare, so I think he's just a scum roleblocker
2) The way that MMan instantly chose to claim that JasonT was paranoid (unlikely role speculation = scum)
3) 747. With me claiming self-protect; he can't know that he roleblocked anybody. I'm not ruling out MMan attempting to bus China, but I think MMan is definitely scum in this situation.

In accordance to d3x's 755, I'll wait before a vote; and I want skruffs back now too.

[Amished]

/facepalm @ 763. If he's modkilled, his role is revealed, but he'd automatically lose. You can claim that somebody is guilty because of a cop investigation. Christ don't be so paranoid about it.

[Amished]

Also:

Unvote

Consider this like a cocked vote pointed at you, MMan.

[Amished]

Also, there's more in my role PM that makes me believe Jason even more. I don't see any use in arguing with MMan as he won't help.

The improbable series of actions that all fall in line in 781 looks to be utter crap.

[Amished]

@MMan: Ok, we'll lynch you and probably win because of it.

[Amished]

Yes, a roleblocker is a basic role, but I've *never* seen a pro-town roleblocker. I've seen a jailkeeper, but all the roleblockers I've seen were mafia roleblockers.

[Amished]

@jason: Precisely. Look at the newbie games; perfect example of this.

[Amished]

@China: Just take it as the scumtell it is, and move on.

[Amished]

No, it isn't. All cops always ask the mod if they have sanity issues if there's any question about it.

[Amished]

I don't expect you to unvote. You and him (I think d3x unvoted) are the only ones on him, 10 alive we need 6 to lynch anyways so I'm not worried.

[Amished]

(This is what I meant with MMan always screws up his claims when he's scum with me that I mentioned early on in the game)

[Amished]

I'll tell you why you messed up your claim after the game. Before Jason claimed cop I pretty much wanted to vote for you because of something you said regarding your claim.

@China: There's 2 situations regarding being a cop. You're told sane in your role PM (obviously you're sane then) and if it doesn't specify, smart cops PM the mod to ask if there's sanity issues. If the mod says there's no reason to doubt your insanity or anything like that, then you're good to go and you're sane. If the mod refuses to answer, you investigate a couple people (sometimes including yourself) to test your sanity.

[Amished]

So you'll flip scum because you were investigated guilty and not because of your claim. Yes, we know.

[Amished]

@Jason: that doesn't *prove* you're sane. Like the wiki said, insane cops can help the town through the fact that they know their results are just backwards.

[Amished]

EBWOP: I'm not saying that you aren't sane (which I believe you are), but wording like that isn't mod confirmed sane. And with that current line of saying pro-town/whatever; that's coming close to quoting a PM and I don't want you modkilled. I'd suggest to not continue that line of "proof"

[Amished]

And there'd never be millers. You realize talking about random roles does not add to the game. I'm about to just ignore you pretty soon.

[Amished]

And I refuted your refutation by bringing up roles that almost certainly aren't in this game; yet are still probably 100x more common than yours. None of which are relevant to this particular scenario and anything to do within the boundaries of this game; so yes, you're not adding to the game.

@Fuzzy: I believe I slightly covered it in my claim post (or my explanation post shortly after). If everyone posted such lists, it gives the scum much more information to get a general consensus of who is most widely regarded as pro-town. Giving them such information on a silver platter allows them to kill the biggest threat (in the manner of not being able to force a mislynch on them easily) and leaving the scummy players in the game so that mislynches are easier and more likely to create mass confusion. All of this allows scum to get by easier; which is anti-town. I've already explained why I did my list (in an attempt to manipulate the town as a whole (scum included) to target me in the case of watchers and the scum night kill so that I could stop their kill through self-protection).

Where are Skruffs and ZEEnon?

@last scum: I'll be protecting one of Jason or I tonight; so I suggest you leave us alone if you don't want to risk another no-kill.

[Amished]

Cause I doubt the intelligence of the last scum? To allow MMan to try to clear himself on such a weak claim is suicidal to say the least.

Also, my 2nd question, rephrased: If you're trying your best to find scum (as town); would you typically expect to fall under suspicion?

(non-game related question: Have you ever played with zwetschenwasser?)

[Amished]

Hehe, you'll have fun with your deliberately anti-town = a scumtell then if you see him.

You play beyond your experience, but sometimes you have to take into account the situation in which certain people say things. I'll go through my reasoning here after the game if you want to know. Ask me, otherwise I'll probably forget. You're right that people always have a reason, but if you question reasons from somebody you really think is pro-town (after my claim of self-protecting doc and no NK; I'd believe me, but that's just me) you'll often wreck the plans of people that are genuinely trying to help the town. There are times when even when it's obvious, it's best to keep it to yourself and wait til a new day to see what further information can be gained.

[Amished]

I thought that he was unhelpful, but I've seen him be ... more unhelpful and the early scum rolefishing was actually well played and after looking back that's 90% of the reason I thought he was town.

I'm glad I was right about 1 of my scumspects; sorry Scien I just did see Raiv do more with you than anybody else, which set off alarms. I need to just stick with solo scumtells rather than linked (because of WIFOM).

I thought it was well played on me for getting all anti-town killing factions to go after me, since I can only protect myself once (I intentionally left that out; and here's where cruel comes into play): I wanted to try to WIFOM the scum out of killing Jason (so I wasn't actually going to protect him tonight) and then protect him N3 so that we can get 2 results for sure.

I think jason's "bussing" is more of you just plain hopping on a leading bandwagon for any reason at all. You always said "oh, that makes sense" to whatever recent case was out there and your lack of caring who got lynched was a major scumtell in that regards. If you were with him, it'd be bussing, otherwise it's just scummy.

Yeah, end of D1 I wish we had more time. I replaced in with 3 days and I had to get my suspicions out without analyzing them a 2nd time that normally helps. I was seeing ZEE's backing off and my strong town read on him (not sure why you all didn't see it, but that's a "whatever" point for me) made me doubt myself too. You actually being around to defend yourself and made some good points (while getting away from my points, I still hold by that) made me kinda question myself too.

@Jason: I was hoping that you were going to investigate China; mostly just for my own sanity; but I didn't want to just come out and say it and "direct the cop". I didn't want you to waste an invest. on me/somebody I "knew" to be town.

@MMan: The reason you "screwed up" your claim was in the fact that you said you could roleblock anybody you wanted as many times as you wanted. Knowing my flavor (could protect in a "rainbow" way) made me suspect that you weren't a pro-town role. 1-shot doc on a cop is balanced (which made me believe him). Then, a cop isn't going to investigate a person more than once really. Since I couldn't protect somebody more than once, that's what gave you away to me.

[Amished]

I don't take credit, but even before the cop claim I was ready to lynch you because of what I thought I understood the "flavor" to be. A pro-town protective role (kinda like a roleblocker) that didn't have a similar flavor was suspicious to me. Cops + SKs typically don't need to target the same person more than once so it was a "rainbow" type of town. That's what I thought would happen from the non-scum perspective. Also, another game where a roleblocker is scum only.

[Amished]

I don't think it's that flawed. Had the mod put in any more pro-town power roles, I think it would've been along similar lines as me.

@d3x: I don't recall you really being suspicious of China, or are you talking about Raiv and Monkey?

[Amished]

No, SK's are guilty. If it was a mafia-cop (i.e. mafia/not mafia) clearly he would've been not mafia. However, SKs are not innocent, so they turn up guilty.

[Amished]

It seemed balanced. Cop + a doc that can only protect him once is a good town setup, without giving away to the doc that a cop *is* in the setup.

2 mafia, 1 sk, 7 vts, 1 cop and 1 1-shot for everybody cop seems like it should work out pretty well.

[Amished]

@ZEEnon: TBH, I thought your had to use rainbow colors because you were a town PR but didn't want to say anything, that's kinda why I hinted at wanting you back today... Misread that one, but still got the pro-town right =\

[Amished]

I want Col. Mustard!

[Amished]

I'll work on it. I bet I know somebody that could help me out designing it. I'll let you know when I get it up and running if you want, d3x. It'll probably be a couple months for sure though before I get it balanced and through the list mod after I finish modding my current game...

[Amished]

You'd be surprised. Nightless works, I could add in Wadsworth the Butler (from the movie), I could go into "Master Clue" characters. A theme game has a lot more freedom with roles, etc..

[Amished]

Still working on the mechanics, it'll have to be something that's based on rooms to keep it "balanced" but there will have to be something on top of just voting/nk'ing. I'll put you down though China.