Mini 859 - Cleansing of Falls Church - Over

[Raskol]

/confirm

Starting to read...

[Raskol]

I'm about halfway read through at the moment. The only thing that stands out so far is that the amount of noise in this game is staggering. Luckily we have a lot of different votes made at least, which might be helpful once we have some flips.

Hoping the second half of what we have so far has some more immediately useful content.

[Raskol]

Interim catchup post:

I'm on page 20 now. Don't like either the CA or the DRK wagons so far.

I applaud my predecessor's good sense in choosing brothernature for his vote. Meanwhile, don_johnson has come in and jumped on one of the big bandwagons with what I regard as a fairly weak case. He makes a lot of points but none of them are much good---lots of noise, little signal. This doesn't fit well with what I saw of him from playing with him as town.

Keeping my vote on don_johnson.

[Raskol]

don: Hmm, you're right about the order of the votes. I hadn't gotten that far in the thread but had read you in ISO. My mistake, but the point about the case still stands.

For everyone on the DRK and CA wagons: could you summarize your case against them briefly? Please tell me the reasons why you are currently voting for your target and why you think other people should consider them a better lynch than anyone else.

I'll have more later, after I've re-thought things a bit and read the last few pages of the thread.

[Raskol]

unvote

---on a closer read-through, I'm nost sure I can justify to myself keeping my vote on don_johnson.

I still don't much like the CA or DRK wagons, though.

For everyone on the DRK and CA wagons: could you summarize your case against them briefly? Please tell me the reasons why you are currently voting for your target and why you think other people should consider them a better lynch than anyone else.

[Raskol]

The Jester wars were indeed a giant mass of nulltell. The positions taken by either side on them are of more interest to me.

Every post that's made by someone who is voting for either CA or DRK without me a solid case summary is going to make me more and more suspicious of them.

[Raskol]

EBWOP: without *giving* me

[Raskol]

Why limit it to those three?

[Raskol]

Furry---not having time to push an alternate lynch is no reason not to make cases. If CA is truly your top suspect, then fine, but you shouldn't avoid pushing lynches just because you think you won't be supported. If you end up having to go with the majority to avoid a no lynch, fine, but do your best---sticking with easy bandwagons just because they're easy doesn't help the town, and makes people like me find you suspicious.

Sanjay---I unvoted because I was mistaken about one of my main points against him. I'm starting to feel a bit better about getting back on his wagon because he still hasn't caught up (I have and I replaced in after him), and he hasn't posted a case summary on DRK, but I'd rather feel things out a bit first before I vote again. I still need a better handle on the game.

Looker---Don't rolefish. Also, try not to get yourself modkilled :p

[Raskol]

You asked me whether I was breadcrumbing. A lot of people will interpret that as you attempting to out power roles, which is a scum move.

BTW, I would appreciate a small extension. Maybe another 3-4 days?

[Raskol]

Better hurry then. Not catching up is making you a decent policy vote.

I'm more concerned about your lack of case, though. Hearing your reasons for voting DRK would make me feel a whole lot better about you (that is, unless they're bad or scummy).

[Raskol]

Sanjay---This day has sucked, but that's exactly

why

it needs to be extended a bit. Now's our chance to get some decent content in to go on tomorrow.

[Raskol]

don: It's really not either necessary or helpful to post a summary of the entire game as you read it. We're capable of reading and don't need you to tell us what happened.

If you just read the thread all at once and then post your opinions, you'll avoid repeating yourself, catch up faster, and be better able to stick to relevant information. Just my 2 cents.

[Raskol]

Just noticed we haven't had a post from ZazieR in over a week, though he's active in other threads.

Vote: Zazier

Hopefully a bandwagon will give him some incentive to post.

[Raskol]

i don't think voting at this stage away from the prominent wagons is going to benefit town. just my two cents.

Why not? You can always move it back if it doesn't look like it's going anywhere.

Besides, all that is irrelevant if we can make ZazieR a prominent bandwagon in his own right.

votevotevote for ZazieR, all of you.

Either that or get the guy replaced (get on the ball with prods mod, Oct 29th was a long time ago )

[Raskol]

Oh, and for anyone saying ZazieR has an excuse (the "La for school" in the signature)---check his activity in his other games. He has 25 onsite posts

today alone

. If that guy's V/La then I'm a flying raccoon.

So basically---ACTIVE LURKER OMG OMG LYNCHLYNCHLYNCHLYNCHLYNCH

[Raskol]

Why do I think he's scum? (note the gender icon---the Z lists itself as male)

See above post. /end case.

Anything else would be hard to find, as the essence of ZazieR's playstyle is essentially "spam so much useless crap that it's impossible to pick anything out from all the noise". I'll look through as much of an isoread as I can stand without gouging my eyes out, though.

[Raskol]

Secondary reasons---the fight between CA and DRK is probably town on town. It seems genuine on both sides.

The other bandwagon is you, and I'm reading town on you too.

Hence, ZazieR. Avoiding a certain game is a pretty good scumtell on players like that, I've found.

[Raskol]

Oh, and DRK---I do want ZazieR lynched. Very much so. I am talking about switching my vote back only on the chance that I can't push his wagon to a hammer.

[Raskol]

Okay, here's a quick and dirty meta case on ZazieR, taking points from his wiki page. The purpose is to show that Zazie has a history of lurking in order to take advantage of townie infighting:

* Open 102 modded by Neko with a scum win
* Role: Scum lover
* I was this time Roflcopter (Rofl)'s lover, which was quite irronic as both of us were rivals in love for Korts at that time He has no rival at this point though.

Anyway, apparently, me and Rofl made a total of 7 posts. And we won. We only had to watch town destroy eachother

, as a failed gambit had seperated town into two groups. And during day 2, we only had to quickhammer. There was only one game in which I had to do less than in this game .

* Mini 672 modded by LG with a scum win
* Role: Mafia goon
* One of the games which I like looking back to. Great player list, and easy victory for my team.

As scum team didn't do much, I can't say anything about my play. We were just watching how town was destroying each other.

There was only one player who was right, and had even each scum pegged. Luckily, town didn't pay much attention to her.

This is how Zazie has gotten two of his three scum wins. Meanwhile, there's little evidence that he ever avoids games like this as town.

Theory of the game atm:

DRK and CA are probably both town. ZazieR has parked his vote on a relatively safe person that at the time did not look likely to be lynched, allowing him to avoid being seen on a townie wagon. In the meantime, he's sitting around waiting for the townies to destroy each other. He hasn't been prodded so he's not worried about getting replaced out yet, and since no one has called him out on his lurking, he's probably feeling pretty good about his phony "limited access".

Those are as good or (in my mind) better than any of the cases I've seen on DRK or CA. On top of that, though, we've got policy to consider. Even those who might not agree with my town reads on CA and DRK will have to admit that they've both been solid contributors of content by this game's standards. They're both people I want alive if they're town.

Z, on the other hand, alternates between noisy information-free spamming and selective, active lurking. Best lynch ever.

[Raskol]

[persuade]

Vote for ZazieR.

[/persuade]

[Raskol]

I dont like a zazie wagon too much at this point. Zazie lurking is a town tell to me. Everytime ive seen him get lynched for it he was town.

Give links.

[Raskol]

Let's think this through a little bit.

Jester speculation is said to be scummy because it distracts the town from scumhunting. So what do these people do? They distract the town from scumhunting by bickering about Jester speculation for 10+ pages.

Mission accomplished, good job.

This wagon is

bad

. DRK made a minor slipup. The Jester speculation was pretty useless, yes, but nothing like the biggest scumtell anyone's made all game. Voting based primarily on that is

bad

. Pushing a case based on that alone is

bad

. The only person on the DRK wagon that doesn't come off as scummier for it, I think, is CA---because his involvement in it seems like a townie who's gotten overzealous on a minor antitown act, and has been involved in an argument that's escalated to the point that alignment doesn't even remain an issue any more---it's all about being right. He's stuck with it even though it's made him look bad to a lot of people, which I find town.

The rest of you on the DRK wagon are getting fishier all the time, though.

Here's my stance right now: I'd like to get ZazieR either lynched or replaced---and the more I think about it, the more I think replacement would be better for today (I'd like to see how a non-ZazieR player behaves in that slot before I eliminate it). Failing that, I'd go for either BigBear or KoC. I'd say we have at least one scum on the DRK wagon right now, and I don't think it's DJ or CA.

DRK: don't claim. Instead, we need to organize a lynch of one of ZazieR, BigBear, or KoC

[Raskol]

mod: can we get a replacement for ZazieR?

[Raskol]

BigBear, I'd like to talk about the points you've made against me, and why they're bad.

I asked for cases on CA and DRK not so that I could hop on one of their wagons, but so that I could point out how flimsy they are (especially the one on DRK) and deflate both wagons, while catching out those who didn't have any reasons. I've said from the beginning I don't like either bandwagon, and I'm continuing to push people off both of them as best as I can.

Anyone who's doing an honest read of my play will get that from my posts. So, for you to say I'm lining myself up for an opportunity vote on CA or DRK means you either haven't read my posts, or you're being dishonest.

My impression from the beginning was that CA vs DRK was town on town, and I asked for cases to force people to prove to me that they were honestly scumhunting rather than capitalizing on townie infighting. Of all the people who have posted since then, you have failed that test the most miserably.

[Raskol]

I'm looking for scum on the DRK wagon (most probable place for them to be at the moment) and Furry's not on the DRK wagon. Furry's given cases even before being asked. Furry's defended an easy lynch.

All of these things make Furry, in my eyes, less likely to be scum than either KoC or BigBear.

Between KoC and BigBear I prefer lynching BigBear as he will leave the most connections behind and has been individually scummier on top of that, whereas my main point against KoC is his position on the wagon and his pushing of a weak anti-town-tell (jester spec) as sole reason for that vote. BigBear's got both of those plus extra.

Anyway,

unvote

Vote: BigBear

I'm willing to compromise and go to KoC if necessary, with ZazieR remaining a viable choice if neither of those are workable (but would still prefer replacement instead---it's been over 8 days now and I think we're due for one!).

[Raskol]

Did I miss something?

[Raskol]

ZazieR---Keep your catchup to 3 posts max, please.

BigBear---instead of calling my vote OMGUS, address my reasons for it. Also, please respond to what I said about your points against me being complete trash.

[Raskol]

Also, ZazieR, you need to explain why you haven't been posting in this thread fo rthe past week or so.

[Raskol]

Also, ZazieR, you need to explain why you haven't been posting in this thread fo rthe past week or so.

See sig.
My studie is much more time consuming then I thought. When I get behind, I mostly keep uptodate with those only need to be responded to with a few posts so that I don't get behind in those games as well.
It's a bad habit of mine.

Bullshit. You've been posting 30+ posts a day on the site. You could have done one a day in this game. You chose not to, yet didn't have the decency to get yourself replaced.

Why is that?

[Raskol]

You wanted to finish the game---I don't care. The rest of the players need a players lot to be filled by someone who's actually playing. Your action was at best incredibly selfish.

In the meantime, you're on my blacklist. I won't be playing in any more games with you. You probably don't care, just thought you should know. If we don't get your replaced out or lynched today, I'm going to ask for a replacement, because I won't spend another day in a game you're still in.

As for catching up: if by 'catching up', you mean spamming the thread with a page of one-liner posts, then no, you may not, as far as I'm concerned...though I don't suppose I'll be able to stop you.

[Raskol]

unvote

vote: ZazieR

Kill it with fire.

[Raskol]

Mod: requesting to forcibly replace ZazieR. 8 days gone is over twice as long as the activity limit for forcible replacement.

[Raskol]

I'm relaxed. This isn't emotion, it's policy.

[Raskol]

Mod: requesting to forcibly replace ZazieR. 8 days gone is over twice as long as the activity limit for forcible replacement.

Did you even read Post 868?

That's my response to post 868. You need to be out of this game. Now.

[Raskol]

I read it. There's absolutely nothing in it that changes my desire to get you out of this game, or the fact that you were inactive long enough that by site standards you should be.

[Raskol]

Meh...Zaz is still blacklisted, and I'll never allow myself to be in another game with him, but I won't replace out of this game even if he doesn't...at least not this time. He should be on zero tolerance for the rest of the game, though---one more prod and he should be out. If the mod doesn't get on top of prods, I can't make any promises.

For now, I suppose I'm willing to write his absence off as stupid, shitty, assholeish play. I want to win this game, and I don't think he's most likely to be scum. I guess I'll have to tolerate his mind-bogglingly annoying and anti-town posting style for a while, and relinquish my unending hatred of all lurkers, much as I hate to do either.

unvote

Vote: BigBear

[Raskol]

Sanjay...what kind of convincing would it take to get you on the BB wagon?

[Raskol]

This quote is activating my gut. If you really feel that the site standards should be upheld, then why didn't you push them as soon as Zazie hit the required length of inactivity, instead of waiting until after your little arguement?

At first I thought it was scummy and should be lynchable. Now I'm thinking ZazieR is just a prick, and the absence is explainable by that. Betterr to replace that kind of player rather than waste a lynch on a slot you've got few reasons to think is scum.

Can you explain how getting ZazieR repalced would further a scum-Raskol's goals more than a town-Raskol's?

[Raskol]

Also, I'd just like to remind everyone how close we are to deadline.

[Raskol]

unvote
vote KoC

unvote

because things have been made clearer to me. Don't like the way certain people tried to turn "voting DRK for starting jester speculation + contributing to it's continuance in the game" into "voting DRK because ur scum lol".
donj's play matches his meta of not having a meta.
I will be fairly inactive today, Mums' birthday, might be able to weigh in tomorrow.

Well I can honestly say that I'm confused at this point; however, I'm fairly certain (at this point), due to the recent turn of events, that one of Don_Johnson and DeathRowKitty are Mafia.

/facepalm

[Raskol]

i'm gonna go ahead and claim power now to help the process.

/facepalm

[Raskol]

Don, claiming power was just stupid. You have only three votes and at least one of those looked easy enough to convince to join another bandwagon. Meanwhile, there were other people who would only need one or two votes to surpass the number you've got. Claiming at this point was a bad idea, full stop.

However, now that you've softclaimed you need to fullclaim. You're screwed anyway, we might as well have the full info if we're going to make a decision on it.

[Raskol]

So let me get this straight---you're going to softclaim at L-4 and then refuse to fullclaim?

There just isn't a /facepalm big enough for this. Seriously, where did you get this player list, Kreriov?

[Raskol]

unvote

vote: don johnson

Refusing to fullclaim is just

stupid

. It's not going to make the scum any more likely to NK you, but it does give the town some reason to trust you. The only difference between a softclaim and a fullclaim is a fullclaim forces you, if you're lying, to come up with a story now instead of tailoring one tomorrow to fit what happens tonight.

If you're telling the truth, scum is going to do the same thing either way---either NK you, or leave you alive for the WIFOM. Fullclaiming isn't going to make you any more likely to be NK'ed (that's why I said you're screwed anyway), but claiming now will help us sort through the WIFOM and make a better decision in that situation.

This vote stays on at the very least until I hear your claim. There's absolutely no townie reason for you to refuse fullclaim now that you've softlcaimed. You made an absolutely braindead move and now you need to help us out, or you're going to get lynched.

[Raskol]

don, if you won't fullclaim, I have no reason to believe you and your softclaim looks a lot more like scum trying to get out of being lynched than anything town would do. Softclaim is a super scummy move. I'm willing to believe it was an idiot mistake, but I can't do that unless you're willing to help fix it by at least fullclaiming. I don't think a round of night actions is going to help us at all unless we have your role beforehand. Otherwise, you get to make up any story you want depending on what happens.

Let me put this in really simple terms that you'll be sure to understand: You have already claimed a power role. The scum already know that you are a power role. You are already probably going to be nightkilled for being a power role. Knowing

which

power role you are is not going to make the scum any more likely to nightkill you, but it will make it easier for town to decide what to do today, and what to do tomorrow on the off chance that you aren't NK'ed.

You don't have a leg to stand on. Full claim. Do it or die now, as only scum would have any reason to withhold that info at this point.

[Raskol]

It's not just a risk to him, though. It's a risk to us. If he survives the night, we'll have to be able to trust his claim tomorrow.

[Raskol]

I guess I don't care too much, though. I won't be around tomorrow anyway, so you guys can do what you like.

unvote