Mini 909: Nice'n'Fun Mafia (Game Over)

[AGar]

Oi oi oi!

I'll be replacing Col.Cathart.

Gonna start reading through now.

[AGar]

I've had a tough time trying to sit down and read the game today - I'll have much more success tomorrow.

However, I will be unvoting for now, as I have 0 reads at the moment and the vote misconstrues my position in this game - I don't have one, a vote says "I stand here."

Unvote

[AGar]

So I finally got my read in.

Hoopla's roleclaim is... interesting. Not sure what to make of it, as I wasn't aware millers were told of there role, that was the whole point of the role in my eyes.

I'm suspicious of Mindgamer for a few reasons - 1 is the major absence from the game and the second is an echo of what my predecessor said - the insistence that "mislynch" was a joke early on. Plus, he tried pushing the RVS out of the question as "analyzable material" at some point when people were going after the "mislynch" bit.

FoS: Mindgamer

Unlike a few people in this game, I am a big fan of policy lynches when they present the appropriate opportunity.

Quagmire not reading the role PM sucks the life out of the game by giving him a free pass on D1. However, as people outlined, it's pretty anti-town. Also, there's been no scumhunting from him, just arguments about the validity of his garbage.

I'm sick of hearing him try and argue it as legitimate, and would rather see him policy-lynched than allowed to move on to D2.

Nacho, your buddying and defense of the tactic reeks of bad play.

Vote: Quagmire

[AGar]

Unlike a few people in this game, I am a big fan of policy lynches when they present the appropriate opportunity.

So would you support a lynch of Cyberbob on the basis that he admitted to not reading most of what other people post?

I don't see that as substantial enough to form a policy around. cruelty admitted to skimming, and I know I do it myself as well. However, if he's getting the main point, there's nothing that is problematic to the game with that. Not reading a role PM could be detrimental to the game. What if he's got a day action limited to that day. What if he's a doublevoter? Then he could really mess things up. That's a problem I don't want to have to deal with.

Nacho, your buddying and defense of the tactic reeks of bad play.

Why do you think buddying as opposed to him having a different opinion than you do?

Because he's defending the issue until he's blue in the face.

[AGar]

For all these people that agree lynching Quagmire is a bad idea on D1, I see very little posting trying to convince us otherwise with actual cases. You're not helping the situation by just opposing it, you're just looking lazy.

[AGar]

I'm currently in a V/LA until tomorrow evening. Just transitioning back into the school routine.

[AGar]

I was going to post a lot of responses here, but things kinda got odd so I'll just go with thoughts.

Re: Tracker's Roleclaim - I'm not inclined to believe it or disbelieve it just because it seems like it would be a semi-safe claim. Really, there's nothing that guarantees a serial killer's presence or a doctor's absence. Mafia could claim something like this and get away with it somewhat reasonably. There's too many variables for me to pass judgment on the claim in this case. I'll see how I feel about it after tomorrow rolls around.

Re: Quagmire's Policy Lynch - If you don't agree with lynching him based on policy, think of it this way. His "policy" has distracted the entire town as well as him not playing a pro-town game either way. In fact, I think that had we not had his role PM brought up, we'd have had less out of him. Distracting the town and providing no real activity isn't the definition of pro-town behavior at all.

[AGar]

Well, the role PM warned me there was a chance there was no SK. But I knew a wagon was going to start and if I get lynched anyway, eh, it happens.

I don't like this AtE.

/*I also don't like the fact that we've had 2 town PRs killed, and two non-Vanilla roles who have killed. I feel like there are way too many PRs in this game.*/

That was a bit of a setup rant, but w/e.

Anyways, what I don't like more than Tracker's AtE is Mindgamer's very simple quickvote.

I'm inclined to believe that Tracker's claim is legit with the fact that we've already had two PRs flip.

Vote: Mindgamer

[AGar]

The correct answer to Hoopla's quiz is 'stop defensively speculating about PR's and start playing the game.'

Winner. Hoopla, that post just smells like you trying to throw the town of trails by posting up nonsense.

How about instead of this speculation nonsense, we either discuss the claims at hand (Miller, FBI Agent) and their respective likelihood alone - timing, nature - and also look into possibly lynching people who are looking scummy without claims - i.e, Mindgamer, who has been active lurking THE ENTIRE GAME.

[AGar]

How about instead of this speculation nonsense, we either discuss the claims at hand (Miller, FBI Agent) and their respective likelihood alone - timing, nature - and also look into possibly lynching people who are looking scummy without claims - i.e, Mindgamer, who has been active lurking THE ENTIRE GAME.

Sure, how about you begin.

Sure thing. I already posted my initial suspicions of Mindgamer in post #218 (look it up, I'm too lazy to fight with the awful forum BBcode).

To expand on that, he comes in during this day and provides a quick vote with a bogus reason on a player whom he got attacked for defending yesterday.

He has been sketchy in his attendance at best, active lurking at worst.

He's provided no content and is sliding under the radar almost completely un-pressured to this point. All the while, people are going on about their roleclaims and he's got nothing but "No SK kill last night. Can't be an FBI Cop. Vote vote vote." Seriously?

---

Complete thoughts on Hoopla's claim? It's bogus. Nevermind the fact that a self-aware miller is, in my opinion, bullshit. The claim had no reason to be put out there other than to basically fuck with any potential cop we have. It was unprovoked and just useless. If you're town, we gain nothing from the claim. Scum gains everything from it whether you are scum or you aren't scum. If you are scum, you basically nullify any potential investigations on yourself and leave us to a wonderful guessing game of the veracity, while as for if you aren't mafia, you've wonderfully created us this guessing game of "what the hell is going on" and your smokescreen posting and your games of 20 questions are doing nothing to help the town find the actual scum.

---

Tracker's claim? I buy it for a couple of smaller factors. First, I don't necessarily believe that there aren't two killing parties - they could have easily hit the same target during N1, or their could be some other funny business going on (Hider, gambit). Second, I don't like the way that a few people quickly tried to jump on the Tracker wagon after only one person died last night. Yourself (hoopla) included with this "Well how does that bode for him?" crap and then flip-flopping back to "I believe it 95%". Finally, the AtE, while I don't like it, I've come to find more and more it's a townie thing as opposed to a scum thing.

---

The meat of hito's #340 is brilliance, and something everyone should take note of.

*Gives hito a cookie*

[AGar]

and the main anti-Quag lynch proponent yesterday as well.

And then you did a complete 180. Just a note.

I fail to imagine a set-up where an SK can currently exist. Trying to balance a mini-normal with three killing roles is ridiculous, even for someone zany like Cruciare. Without an NK now, it isn't even worth considering.

This makes sense.

Unvote

You're voting based on trying to outguess the mod.

Wonderful. Did you ever consider the possibility that more than one person tried to hit Cyberbob?

Complete thoughts on Hoopla's claim? It's bogus. Nevermind the fact that a self-aware miller is, in my opinion, bullshit. The claim had no reason to be put out there other than to basically fuck with any potential cop we have. It was unprovoked and just useless. If you're town, we gain nothing from the claim. Scum gains everything from it whether you are scum or you aren't scum. If you are scum, you basically nullify any potential investigations on yourself and leave us to a wonderful guessing game of the veracity, while as for if you aren't mafia, you've wonderfully created us this guessing game of "what the hell is going on" and your smokescreen posting and your games of 20 questions are doing nothing to help the town find the actual scum.

I'm not sure which games you've been involved in, but I've only encountered ~*~secret~*~ millers once, which was in Zoraster's recent large normal game, as opposed to 5-6 other times where miller's have knowledge they are a miller. I'm genuinely puzzled that you think self-aware millers are rare, especially when almost all miller threads in MD are about which way to play the miller role.

Town gaining nothing from my claim is a lie. I explained my motivation for claiming miller - the risk of not claiming and then being investigated by a cop is too damaging

not

to claim. The only downside is scum know I am not a powerrole and it slightly lowers the pool to catch one in. That downside is not significant compared to the outside chance of being investigated and wasting a Day 2 lynch

and

outing a cop.

This is not a massive scum advantage like you're trying to spin - as the only thing it protects me from is investigations. I think Hito summed it up well, stating my claim equated to this;

"If we have a cop, you're wasting your time investigating me."

I think I tend to get targeted at night more than random, so this was the percentage play to me. I hope you can agree too!

I haven't been playing Minis on MS for almost my entire tenure on the site - I stick to Road to Rome generally. I just started adding Minis into my balance of games I take on. However, another site I played on didn't have self-aware millers. But that's moot.

So your motivation was self-preservation. Cool. That's not scummy at all.

The claim doesn't help us as town, other than avoiding a mislynch. But the upside is if you're scum, an investigation doesn't give us any footing. I'd say that's pretty significant if you're scum and managed to stay off the radar, and then an investigation pops up.

The timing was unprovoked, the context wasn't useful at all, and the motivation wasn't protown.

Mindgamer - that post you just put up is classic smokescreening - it seems like it would be useful, but in all reality, it is useless information and just keeps you further distanced from the game.

People, if you aren't on the Mindgamer wagon, get on it. Here's some reasons why!

1) Mindgamer has been actively lurking and following the general ebb and flow for most of this entire game, very rarely posting true content. Most of his posts lack original thought or, worse, content at all.

2) Fluffposting. A number of his posts and his content, like the table at the end of the last post, have no real value to the town if we want to catch scum.

3) Lack of commitment. During Day 1, Mindgamer said he would hammer Quag, but no sooner than an hour prior to the deadline. Why? At this point, NOTHING new was going to come from Quag - his insistence on not reading his role PM was crystal clear. What could have possibly changed the town's direction in those few hours. Today, he has only laid a quickvote on Tracker, recanted it, and then decided he shouldn't have a vote out.

4) The RVS incident. I still stand by the fact that he was trying to buddy up to Tracker after the RVS thing with his insistence that "mislynch" was a joke, even after Tracker said otherwise. *My predecessor picked up on this, not me.*

So vote Mindgamer today, because it's the right thing to do!

This advertisement paid for by the Lynch-Mindgamer committee, and only reflects the views of those committee members (AGar) and no one else in this town. Read the fine print people. Why? Because authority makes it small so you won't read it. But you should. Why? So I can waste your time reading small sized font like this. I bet you ten bucks I could fill an entire one of these with "Lorum Ipsem" and no one would read it. NO ONE.

[AGar]

So your motivation was self-preservation. Cool. That's not scummy at all.

The claim doesn't help us as town, other than avoiding a mislynch. But the upside is if you're scum, an investigation doesn't give us any footing. I'd say that's pretty significant if you're scum and managed to stay off the radar, and then an investigation pops up.

The timing was unprovoked, the context wasn't useful at all, and the motivation wasn't protown.

No, it was cop preservation. The reason why I claimed is so a cop doesn't potentially waste an investigation on me, causing him to out himself. How on earth are you reading it as self-preservation?

Some players support policy lynches of millers, and they always almost come under fire/draw excessive attention to themself because of their claim. They are also hot choices for vig kills. If this is self preservation, then I'm doing it wrong.

You make it seem as if the worse case scenario (by not claiming) is not a big deal at all. Outing a cop falsely for a mislynch is a disasterous situation for the town. Claiming miller is not explicitely pro-town, because it narrows the pool of power roles for scum to hit. But it is a far better situation than the worse case scenario in not claiming and being investigated. Both are negative results, but claiming is imo the lesser of two evils. Therefore it was the protown decision.

You're failing to realize that I'm taking BOTH sides into account here. I'm not believing blindly like you would like me to. I'm looking at this objectively - if you're town then there shouldn't be any problem for this. Again, it saves an investigation. If you're town, that is good, because it increases the percentages of a cop investigating scum. But if you're scum, that is good too. It lessens the percentage of a cop hitting scum, and manages to give you a free pass if he doesn't investigate you. I'm getting at THAT side of it, which you seem to be missing.

And then you did a complete 180. Just a note.

Lynching randomly was better than no-lynching on Day 1.

Fair enough.

Mindgamer - that post you just put up is classic smokescreening - it seems like it would be useful, but in all reality, it is useless information and just keeps you further distanced from the game.

I'm seeing the points about Mindgamer reading back through. His posts look incredibly busy on the surface, but when I sat back and actually had a chance to read them, I found they had less content than an unhappy marraige (homograph metaphor...huh.)

Should I just ask for a replacement then? I try my best with the time I have, but it's not appreciated. Apparently I'm not making the game enjoyable for you and you certainly aren't making the game enjoyable for me.
Replacement? Your choice.

The hell is this crap?

I was saying you look scummy, not that you're a waste of a player role. Generally, players that produce no content are scummy players, not people that we hate.

This is strong AtE and also suggesting the replacement seems like a scum cop-out. You realize that we lynched Quag and he didn't request a replacement because he "wasn't enjoying the game." So instead you go the alternate route. "I don't enjoy this. Can I have a replacement?" Smells like a bad ploy to me.

Also, Hoopla - Pressure votes fail to be pressure votes when you say they are pressure votes.

[AGar]

Also, Hoopla - Pressure votes fail to be pressure votes when you say they are pressure votes.

I don't remember making a pressure vote.

I am voting angelmouse to get what I need out of her.

---

[/game]How many of you ACTUALLY think, "Hey, I'm going to appeal to everyone's emotions with my next post."? I doubt anyone actually does that whether they are scum or not. You all should stop following the wiki so much and play the game the way you want to play the game. Leave the poor guy alone, if you don't believe him then you can say that but don't accuse him of trying to appeal to peoples emotions[game]

I do. As scum more than town.

[AGar]

Also, Hoopla - Pressure votes fail to be pressure votes when you say they are pressure votes.

I don't remember making a pressure vote.

I am voting angelmouse to get what I need out of her.

My vote will stay on her if she doesn't comply - pressure votes are usually done to generate reactions. I am doing it to get what I need to hear from her.

In a twisted way that I hope you understand, my point remains. You are saying what the intent of your vote is, and it is not lynching. Thus, the effect is generally lost.

[AGar]

What are your thoughts on RedCoyote and angelmouse?

RedCoyote is a neutral read for me atm. In the event that it was deadline and we needed a hammer on him, I'd gladly provide it, but I won't be trying to start/push a wagon on him right now.

I'm withholding my read on AM until a replacement is found. I'd like to see whoever that replacement is give their thoughts on AM as well.

I'd support a Nacho wagon as well.

[AGar]

I'd happily support a Mindgamer or cruelty lynch.

I would lynch Hoopla, AGar, Angelmouse, or Tracker at deadline without too much protesting.

You really need to start explaining things. You've said earlier that Hoopla was a town read and The Tracker wasn't that scummy to you anymore. Why the complete 180?

[AGar]

Hoopla was a town read.

Yesterday, I said that. Earlier today, I said that she had the highest chance of being the SK, if there is one. As an SK, claiming miller is a pretty good way to go, and lately the positions she's been taking (lurker votes, but not jumping on any wagons) have smelled strongly of self-preservation.

No. You said that in your first post today. Here it is:

Oddly enough, I don't find the Tracker as scummy anymore. However, I'm really liking the Mindgamer wagon now. He wasn't really that involved yesterday, and didn't take a stand on anything. Add 1 quickvote and a town read on Hoopla, and what do you get?

Vote: Mindgamer

Opening day post was #312. Thus, you are lying.

The Tracker wasn't that scummy to you anymore.

Yeah, but that doesn't mean that I'd no lynch over lynching him.

Ok fair enough.

[AGar]

I think Hitogoroshi is town, because he hammered Quagmire while I said I would hammer him. If he were mafia, he would much rather let me hammer Quagmire than hammering himself. A hammer on a townie before deadline is always suspicious.

This is laced and loaded with WIFOM.

[AGar]

I think Hitogoroshi is town, because he hammered Quagmire while I said I would hammer him. If he were mafia, he would much rather let me hammer Quagmire than hammering himself. A hammer on a townie before deadline is always suspicious.

This is laced and loaded with WIFOM.

[AGar]

Ok, why the hell has nobody asked this yet?

@Tracker: Who did you investigate last night and why?

He's an FBI Agent via his claim. He only is interested in finding the SK. If he null-reads, we don't need to know who that person is - it provides us with NO info. We're focused first on lynching scum.

RC - don't be so sure of your safety. I personally, as I said, have a neutral read. If I'm forced between lynching a neutral read, a town read and a no lynch, I'm picking the neutral read.

[AGar]

AGar - So if another kill shows up we shouldn't know who *isn't* an SK?

If another had shown up, it would be helpful.

But it's not likely, imo. Unless someone gambitted a no-NK on Night 1 (doesn't make sense for either party if you ask me), I'm highly skeptical of the presence of a SK.

And saying someone isn't an SK doesn't help us out at the moment.

[AGar]

Agar how many non newbie games have you played? Have you ever encountered a miller before?

On MS, this is one of two active Mini Normals I am in, and I completed one.

Offsite, I've played a few more games - that's where I've encountered millers. I thought I explained that they are different there.

I'm withholding my read on AM until a replacement is found. I'd like to see whoever that replacement is give their thoughts on AM as well.

Why did you do this? What's the point on an Angel predeccessor giving thoughts on his/her own playerslot? Seems like they could be doing far better things.

It's something I've found to be useful in some cases, and usually requires very little time.

Agar what do you think of Angelmouse/Edfrost

I didn't have the best read on Angel. Now EdFrost has come in and seemed fairly protown so far. Not sure how to read it. Hydras are difficult.

[AGar]

Re: My absence

I don't believe I told this game, but I apologize for it. I got caught up in some stuff in real life that I ended up devoting most of my time to.

I feel like Mindgamer is trying to reverse-meta himself out of a lynch in that last post like "Look! Look! I was scum in the other game, and I posted a whole ton there, and now here I don't post a lot, so I'm not scum!"

The caution with the "Hai gais, L-5 lolz" shit (I almost typed that this -_-) doesn't sit well with me either.

I'm comfortable with my vote there.

I'm not a fan of the RC wagon. I still get neutral vibes from him. Not blatant scummy. I'd move if the wagon meant avoiding a no-lynch, but not for much else right now.

[AGar]

Wow.

Mod: Can we get an extension? Two more people just replaced out. This game has been littered with them.

Also:

Hoopla brought up Quagmire not reading his role PM, and started the wagon against him. However, she wasn't the main proponent of it. Scum points.

Uh? What do you mean? She pushed the wagon pretty much all day didn't she?

Not really. She pushed it, but the main proponents of it were myself, Cyberbob and Cruelty iirc.

[AGar]

Also, I will be present tomorrow afternoon. I've got Superbowl plans tonight I can't really get out of.

[AGar]

I'd actually be ok with a Faraday lynch since the Mindgamer wagon stalled hardcore. I still don't like it happening, but I'm feeling like I might have to compromise here to make things work out.

Also, for anyone who hasn't played with each of these two characters - both are very clever, skilled players. It's a pretty big threat that they're combined.

Although, RayFrost kinda sucks sometimes, let's hope that's one of these times