Mini 945: Mafia in Bawlmer - GAME OVER

[Ophanim]

conform

[Ophanim]

Vote: dramonic

We do not feel that millers should be left alive to later cause distraction.

[Ophanim]

Vote: dramonic

We do not feel that millers should be left alive to later cause distraction.

This comes off to me as policy-lynching dramonic for claiming miller. Do you

REALLY

want to give scum an advantage by going after such an easy target so early?

Unvote: dramonic
Vote: Ophanim

You're using weasely wording and hypocrisy here; you're essentially advocating (though you're trying to hide it through wording) policy lynching someone who you believe to be policy lynching without understand their motivations.

That being said, had you not just randomly and baselessly started jumping to conclusions, you would realize that there are only two possible motivations for claiming miller:

1. Actual miller, which in my opinion should not exist in a normal game (unless the definition of normal has

significantly

shifted since the time of my predecessor account)

2. Someone trying not to get investigated by a cop (also known as "scum", since we can further infer that the only person who would fear a cop investigation aside from an

unclaimed

miller would logically be someone else who would come up guilty)

Either way, we can be assured that by going after dramonic (until a better target arises) we are improving our day 1 lynch by lowering the chance of hitting an actual power role while subsequently increasing our chance of hitting scum by narrowing people's possible thought processes onto a town/scum binary.

Dramonic: I was considering referring to myself as "we" in order to further the whole Ophan thing, but I've also decided that's obnoxious.

[Ophanim]

Aren't Millers usually left thinking they are a vanilla townie?

No. There's actually been quite the debate over whether or not that would be considered bastard modding.

[Ophanim]

Vote: dramonic

We do not feel that millers should be left alive to later cause distraction.

This comes off to me as policy-lynching dramonic for claiming miller. Do you

REALLY

want to give scum an advantage by going after such an easy target so early?

Unvote: dramonic
Vote: Ophanim

You're using weasely wording and hypocrisy here; you're essentially advocating (though you're trying to hide it through wording) policy lynching someone who you believe to be policy lynching without understand their motivations.

That I was being on the jumpy side is conceded, but I consider policy-lynching a player without a better option out there as scummy.

So wait, you want me to wait until there's a better option than policy lynching to push forth a policy lynch?

Does that make any sense to you whatsoever?

That being said, had you not just randomly and baselessly started jumping to conclusions, you would realize that there are only two possible motivations for claiming miller:

1. Actual miller, which in my opinion should not exist in a normal game (unless the definition of normal has

significantly

shifted since the time of my predecessor account)

I wouldn't be throwing a miller in a normal game either, but MeMe rarely and I never do normality checks on games, and I didn't set out to play mod-WIFOM games.

So because the possibility exists we should ignore it because "you don't want to go there"?

2. Someone trying not to get investigated by a cop (also known as "scum", since we can further infer that the only person who would fear a cop investigation aside from an

unclaimed

miller would logically be someone else who would come up guilty)

I'm in no position to counter this, but I have no real read on dramonic.

This isn't a matter of you having a read. This is a matter of you agreeing or disagreeing with my logic.

Either way, we can be assured that by going after dramonic (until a better target arises) we are improving our day 1 lynch by lowering the chance of hitting an actual power role while subsequently increasing our chance of hitting scum by narrowing people's possible thought processes onto a town/scum binary.

Why am I not a better target since you accused me of policy-lynching players that policy-lynch? To me, being hypocritical is scummier than claiming miller.

Because to me, hypocrisy is human.

Aren't Millers usually left thinking they are a vanilla townie?

No. There's actually been quite the debate over whether or not that would be considered bastard modding.

I stuck such a miller in SWN I, which I advertise as bastard-modded (pretty tame at that, though).

So because it's in a bastard-mod game it should be in a normal game?

Your logic sucks. Try harder.

[Ophanim]

I am aware I am late, however I have been sick with the flu this week. I apologize for my unannounced absence. This is high on my to-do list and I will get to it at my first opportunity.

[Ophanim]

Vote: dramonic

We do not feel that millers should be left alive to later cause distraction.

This comes off to me as policy-lynching dramonic for claiming miller. Do you

REALLY

want to give scum an advantage by going after such an easy target so early?

Unvote: dramonic
Vote: Ophanim

You're using weasely wording and hypocrisy here; you're essentially advocating (though you're trying to hide it through wording) policy lynching someone who you believe to be policy lynching without understand their motivations.

That I was being on the jumpy side is conceded, but I consider policy-lynching a player without a better option out there as scummy.

So wait, you want me to wait until there's a better option than policy lynching to push forth a policy lynch?

Does that make any sense to you whatsoever?

Of course it doesn't. The better options should go first, then the policy lynches.

Then you said it backwards. Be more careful next time.

That being said, had you not just randomly and baselessly started jumping to conclusions, you would realize that there are only two possible motivations for claiming miller:

1. Actual miller, which in my opinion should not exist in a normal game (unless the definition of normal has

significantly

shifted since the time of my predecessor account)

I wouldn't be throwing a miller in a normal game either, but MeMe rarely and I never do normality checks on games, and I didn't set out to play mod-WIFOM games.

So because the possibility exists we should ignore it because "you don't want to go there"?

No; I don't get what I want. I do, however, get to use my brain in determining whether we should pursue dramonic (and so do you). My brain says now is not the time.

And my brain says it is, so we're at an impasse. If anyone claimed anything else at that time other than miller you'd be right on their ass. What makes this situation different aside from the fact that it's one of those convenient claims that ever so happens to be a perfect cover for scum?

2. Someone trying not to get investigated by a cop (also known as "scum", since we can further infer that the only person who would fear a cop investigation aside from an

unclaimed

miller would logically be someone else who would come up guilty)

I'm in no position to counter this, but I have no real read on dramonic.

This isn't a matter of you having a read. This is a matter of you agreeing or disagreeing with my logic.

I thought "I'm in no position to counter this" implied "I agree because I have no reason to disagree."

No, it could as easily imply "I have no way of countering this, and I disagree".

Aren't Millers usually left thinking they are a vanilla townie?

No. There's actually been quite the debate over whether or not that would be considered bastard modding.

I stuck such a miller in SWN I, which I advertise as bastard-modded (pretty tame at that, though).

So because it's in a bastard-mod game it should be in a normal game?

When the hell did I say that roles that are associated with bastard-mod games should be put in normal games? That was in response to Sidekick's curiousity and had nothing to do with my view on dramonic.

And it was completely irrelevant towards Sidekick's comment (and mine), so I don't see the use.

I love you

<3

More coming as I go through the thread.

[Ophanim]

I would not support letting him live until the endgame however.

Then why let him live until a time in which it's an inconvenience to us to get rid of him?

I wouldn't support a Dramonic lynch at this point. Claiming miller is a good way to get the heat on you and people tend to not believe a miller claim when you're in danger of being lynched anyway, so it makes sense for an actual miller to claim early. However that doesn't rule out the possibility of scum fake claiming so:

I would not support letting him live until the endgame however.

Sigh. I'm not inebriated enough to deal with this sort of thing.

Claiming miller is also a good way to get people to think you wouldn't claim miller because it would put the heat on you. Claiming miller is a good way to get people to think you wouldn't claim miller because you wouldn't claim miller because you wouldn't etc etc etc.

There is no sense in looking at things black/white like that.

I find the bolded part really odd. Why would StrangerCoug want to warn dramonic to be careful?

Because he wants dramonic to avoid false positives?

Second, Millers cause more distraction earlier in the game, because everyone has to decide what their stance is on miller claims.

No, people's stances on miller claims are irreconcilable black and white generally. It gets sticky when a cop states that he's investigated everyone but person X and a miller and we hit a lylo situation with those two and a confirmed innocent.

That's

when people's stances become a problem. I aim to eliminate that.

I think you've pushed your attack on StrangerCoug a little too far here. This doesn't even look remotely suspicious to me.

Where have I announced suspicion of Coug? Am I not allowed to have a back-and-forth with someone I don't remotely suspect?

Is it really a scum advantage at this stage? Surely we're just RVSing for the moment, with a scattering of light justification?

You're using the RVS (which should not exist) as a crutch (which is bad) to support an attack on someone for no good reason (which is worse).

I don't care what anyone has to say, I am going to be voting for DiamondCrush at the end of this irregardless of whether or not it's a hammer. I am not leaving him alive to screw up the town anymore. There is no reason to claim someone is the cop at this stage regardless of alignment, and I fear for what he'll say next. This is a warning: if he's at -1 when I reach page 5 and one of you doesn't want Day 1 to end

now

, you'd best be unvoting to make room for me on that wagon.

I'm moving onto page 3 now. I'll keep you updated as I go.

[Ophanim]

I like Chevre's contributions. I would also like to say that free of the pressures of a meta to struggle under, I am much more into this game than I have been in months.

Macavity is backpedaling having realized his attack on Chevre is horrifically weak. Human nature-tell.

SC - what is there to be careful about? The cat is already out of the bag and nothing can change that. Be careful about being investigated anyway? Be careful about all the heat that is going to come?

Who said the cat was definitively out of the bag?

dramonic needs to worry about not looking scummy, which seems to already be a problem if I look at it from his perspective.

Eeeeeeewwwwwewewewewewewewew.

You have no reason to want him to not look scummy. He can look as scummy as he wishes. In fact, it hurts the town if he focuses on not looking scummy.

let's "promote discussion" then.
I think you are scum
discuss.

OH SNAP

Yes, a miller claim is in and of itself information, but it does not take priority over other pressing matters.

There were no other pressing matters

The back of my head wants to yell, "Because it's a day start," but that answer is probably based on a misinterpretation of your question. It is food for thought—if I slipped cop, then DiamondCrash-scum would not be as scummy right now if he shut up about it and killed me.

One possibility is traitor - he could be scum with no contact with the other scum and no power over the nightkill (which I have seen in normals before).

Done with page 3. Moving onto page 4!

[Ophanim]

Hey. Sorry about the whole "SC is a cop" thing. I realise now that it wouldn't really have stimulated discussion, even though it did, in some respects. I also know now that exposing power roles at this stage is a bad idea.

People have asked be to defend why I even brought that up. Truth is, there's very little to defend against. I made a mistake.

Sorry, but you're only allowed to use the newbie excuse in newbie games. This is a mini, if you don't know basic things like "don't try to out power roles to 'stimulate discussion'", I have no sympathy for you.

I'm going by his regdate and his postcount, mostly. He's been here just over 2 and a half months and (as of this post) has 131 posts in games. That might be enough for one, possibly two games; that's still newbie-level IMO.

Do you really think this is something that isn't obvious after one or two games?

I'm accepting Chevre's explanation. I heard somewhere that overuse of words like "could", "possibly", "perhaps" and the like can be a scumtell; indeciciveness as to appear protown.

Really? I'd think that overuse of words is a tell of a limited vocabulary, and/or

actual indecisiveness

.

There should be no black and white, there should only be analysis of the reason why they are using those words.

Ahoy Neto!

Oph backtracked to saying that he'd vote dram until a better option arose and Oph generally overreacted to a simple, straightforward question. An overreaction like that so early in the game seems scummy to me. Not sure what to make of his disappearance though.

It spurred discussion, which was the intent. Intelligent discourse is the best way forward for optimum results.

Done with page 4.

[Ophanim]

If you don't mind me asking, what was your former name on here and why did you switch?

I switched because I wanted to try to play differently without people thinking it out of character for me. No, you can't know. That would defeat the purpose. I may reveal who I am at the end, though.

He seems extremely odd...

The lizard marches at midnight. Bring him the gift of delicious Peach Melba.

Do you think that the DiamondCrash thing is failtown or scum?

I don't care either way. If he is failtown he's failtown to the point at which he's worse to keep alive than scum.

Can you list the two players you're most suspicious of and why?

No, not really. I don't work that way. I just go with what feels right.

How would you describe your mafia playstyle?

Going with the flow and reacting dynamically to people using commonsense and analytical reasoning. I refuse the use of logic in favor of the use of psychological profiling.

Unvote, Vote: DiamondCrush

[Ophanim]

How would you describe your mafia playstyle?

I think of myself as a notorious busser. I'm also trying to get out of my tendency to tunnel as scum.

This poses an interesting couple of questions to Neto.

1) Did you mean mafia playstyle as in how do you play as scum or how do you play in general? My response was in general.

2) If 1, what is the purpose of the question since scum has no reason to answer legitimately?

That being said, had you not just randomly and baselessly started jumping to conclusions, you would realize that there are only two possible motivations for claiming miller:

1. Actual miller, which in my opinion should not exist in a normal game (unless the definition of normal has

significantly

shifted since the time of my predecessor account)

I wouldn't be throwing a miller in a normal game either, but MeMe rarely and I never do normality checks on games, and I didn't set out to play mod-WIFOM games.

So because the possibility exists we should ignore it because "you don't want to go there"?

No; I don't get what I want. I do, however, get to use my brain in determining whether we should pursue dramonic (and so do you). My brain says now is not the time.

And my brain says it is, so we're at an impasse. If anyone claimed anything else at that time other than miller you'd be right on their ass. What makes this situation different aside from the fact that it's one of those convenient claims that ever so happens to be a perfect cover for scum?

You do not paint a nightkill target on yourself by claiming miller as opposed to most other roles I can think of.

Which is another good reason as to why it's a good fakeclaim; nobody suspects why the miller keeps surviving the night.

Possible vigs should strongly consider wasting dramonic so we don't have to waste a lynch on him later.

2. Someone trying not to get investigated by a cop (also known as "scum", since we can further infer that the only person who would fear a cop investigation aside from an

unclaimed

miller would logically be someone else who would come up guilty)

I'm in no position to counter this, but I have no real read on dramonic.

This isn't a matter of you having a read. This is a matter of you agreeing or disagreeing with my logic.

I thought "I'm in no position to counter this" implied "I agree because I have no reason to disagree."

No, it could as easily imply "I have no way of countering this, and I disagree".

If you can't counter something you disagree with, then you have a problem. You could be unwilling to admit you're wrong, you could be inconfident in your stance, etc.

Which was my point, so this line is no longer useful for us to pursue.

Aren't Millers usually left thinking they are a vanilla townie?

No. There's actually been quite the debate over whether or not that would be considered bastard modding.

I stuck such a miller in SWN I, which I advertise as bastard-modded (pretty tame at that, though).

So because it's in a bastard-mod game it should be in a normal game?

When the hell did I say that roles that are associated with bastard-mod games should be put in normal games? That was in response to Sidekick's curiousity and had nothing to do with my view on dramonic.

And it was completely irrelevant towards Sidekick's comment (and mine), so I don't see the use.

Just because my words are irrelevant does not give you the right to twist them.

I

wasn't

. I was attempting to see them in a relevant manner, because I don't see the point in you making irrelevant comments like that.

dramonic needs to worry about not looking scummy, which seems to already be a problem if I look at it from his perspective.

Eeeeeeewwwwwewewewewewewewew.

You have no reason to want him to not look scummy. He can look as scummy as he wishes. In fact, it hurts the town if he focuses on not looking scummy.

Perhaps I worded this wrong too. If he's scumhunting and being generally useful, then the miller claim can go on the back burner. If he's scummy enough to warrant a lynch, then by golly, we should lynch him.

Dramonic should be worried about not looking scummy =/= dramonic should try his best, which is pointless since anyone not scumhunting and being generally useful should be looked at harder anyways.

The back of my head wants to yell, "Because it's a day start," but that answer is probably based on a misinterpretation of your question. It is food for thought—if I slipped cop, then DiamondCrash-scum would not be as scummy right now if he shut up about it and killed me.

One possibility is traitor - he could be scum with no contact with the other scum and no power over the nightkill (which I have seen in normals before).

Now we get into an interesting conversation. Do you suppose that, if DiamondCrash is traitor, he is recruitable?

It's possible, but there's no way of figuring out that information easily and I don't plan on letting Diamond live long enough for this to be relevant.

[Ophanim]

I agree, (1) is a very useful question. I read it a general playstyle, while SC obviously didn't. Oph, why did you ask (2) without letting Neto respond to (1) first? If Neto was asking specifically about scum-style, I agree that it's kind of a ridiculous question, potentially one that distracts from main discussion. By pointing that out, haven't you let him off the hook?

No, I just saved us time and 2 posts by giving him the point to argue right then and there. I honestly don't think it's a helpful question in either form. People's self-metas are worthless.

Sidekick and DC.

You missed the "and why" bit.
You missed the "

[Ophanim]

No, I just saved us time and 2 posts by giving him the point to argue right then and there.

I honestly don't think it's a helpful question in either form.

People's self-metas are worthless.

Then why qualify your second question? The way you asked your second question specifically only applied if Neto was asking about self-scum-meta. Isn't what I italicized different than what you were originally asking about?

People self-metaing themselves is at least interesting and should spark some discussion, as well as give some insight into their thought processes.

Sidekick and DC.

You missed the "and why" bit.
You missed the "

Should be obvious, but sure.
Sidekick - Has done nothing useful or original, brought someone to L-1 with redundant questions.
DC - You don't out a cop.

Is that last sentence a typo?

Yes. I somehow copy/pasted it.

Asking about someone approaches the game as town is, however, extremely useful, as scum generally need to depart from their preferred line of thinking in order to convince someone that a player they know to be innocent is scum.

And you think they'd seriously tell you how they play as town? You're being quite naive there.

[Ophanim]

Would like someone on the Sidekick wagon (preferably Cyberbob since he seems most adamant in support of DC) to give me one good reason why we should be lynching someone who is being lazy above someone who tried to out a cop on day 1.

I will respond to my favorite cop-out excuses here to save time first.

1.

He's a newbie!

If he doesn't know not to try to out power roles midway through day 1, then he's not functioning properly and is worthless to us in the long run to begin with.

2.

But he could just be stupid town!

And Sidekick should be lazy town.

3.

Sidekick voted once the wagon had taken form!

He may have been pushed into action by someone else's exposition.

4.

but to put someone at L-1 and suggest that they should claim when the game hadn't even been going on for a full 3 days...c'mon now, that's unnecessary and scummy.

Real life time is entirely irrelevant! Pages and whatnot are tons more relevant! Back in my day we had a town win a game in less than 2 real life days, and now 3 full days is

too short for day 1

?

[Ophanim]

I feel like outing myself as an alt, for I feel that I've gotten everything I can out of playing as an alt.

My real account is one that has been here since May 2005. It is one that has become one of the most well-known players on the site, one equally respected and disrespected; as famous as infamous. I am one of the most controversial people this site has and will ever known.

I am one of the most prolific posters on the site, having made over 5.5k in-game posts. I have modded over 10 games and played in over 50.

I am the one, the only, the man, the myth, the ego, the spoiler-tagged for that satisfaction of being the one who figured it out:

The JDodge.

And now that I've had my overly-dramatic reveal, I shall go back to playing. Expect more shortly.

[Ophanim]

Usually, they don't think too much about it.

I kind of dislike relying on people being stupid.

Could be. But I said that they "can be a scumtell". Reading between the lines says "they might not".

There's a reason you only said one and not the other.

So, you're telling us that you pretended to overreact as to promote discussion? Or did you actually overreact, and trying to think of an excuse?

I'm telling you that I reacted to nothing as nothing is all there was. I would also argue that I didn't overreact - I solely responded to points against me as anyone would. You'd be equally on my case were I ignoring things.

Paraphrase; "I don't care, I'm gonna kill him anyway." How accurate is this statement, Ophanim? Seems awfully one-track minded, wouldn't you say?

Yep! I have full intention to do nothing else this day but push for your lynch. Enjoy the ride. I have absolutely no reason whatsoever to support any lynch other than yours, and I doubt that such reason will come up.

Following the rest of the flock, you mean?

No, I mean rolling with the punches. Do I

look

like a flock-follower to you?

If DC is really at L-1 are you seriously gonna hammer him? Ending the day this early without giving DC a change to claim?

His claim had better be Jesus at this point to change my mind.

Quit trying to use your indecisiveness to appear protown.

Oh god this put me into a fit of laughter. Thanks for that!

You fear what he'll say next? Really? Now this is how you appear to be protown; by basically saying you're being forced to hammer DC for good of the town.

My hand is not forced. I force the hands of the town by doing what I'm doing. I fully admit that all of my opinions right now are focused on getting DC lynched over anyone else. I am plenty willing to explore a Sidekick lynch, but today nor tomorrow is the day. Tomorrow is a good day to off dramonic for the good of the town so we don't have to deal with that sticky endgame.

1. Failtown; scum would have no reason to out who they think is the cop. They can take care of that with a NK.

What do you think of my prior traitor theory?

I'd disagree that RL time is entirely irrelevant as DC hadn't even had a chance to respond to the growing wagon yet. Either way, L-1/claim demanding by page 3 seems a bit excessive to me too.

Fair enough. Same 2-day game was 6 pages. My first newbie game was 5 pages long.

Adamant? Support? Yeah, nah. I have in no way let DC totally off the hook; the only reason I haven't gone back to him from Sidekick is because of his push for a claim (as Dizzle pointed out) so early (yes, Page 3 is early for talk of hammering and pushes for claims). The speed with which the wagon formed is also a concern for what should be obvious reasons.

Page 3 is

not

early, at all. Furthermore, he had just put someone at -1; the general procedure is to ask for a claim, correct? In fact, I would ask a claim of DC for as long as he is at -1. The speed with which his wagon formed is a standard town reaction to his post, and my only regret over it was that I was not around to see it to its totality.

You are misrepresenting both the points for a DC lynch and a Sidekick lynch; this is exemplified in your pithy little pre-emptive answers to "dem dum cop outs". I like how you try and paint me as "adamant" in "support" of DC when you are far moreso on both counts with Sidekick.

I like how you don't give any real reactions. I don't care one lick about Sidekick. I care solely about getting DC deaded as quickly as humanly possible.

[Ophanim]

Neto, a theoretical for you: Someone is sitting next to you with a gun to your head forcing you to choose between voting Sidekick or DC. For the purpose of this example imagine your vote would not hammer either. Who do you choose?

[Ophanim]

So, you're telling us that you pretended to overreact as to promote discussion? Or did you actually overreact, and trying to think of an excuse?

I'm telling you that I reacted to nothing as nothing is all there was. I would also argue that I didn't overreact - I solely responded to points against me as anyone would. You'd be equally on my case were I ignoring things.

And how would I? I ignored it; how would I have been on your case if you had?

Because Coug's statements were directed at me and not you?

Following the rest of the flock, you mean?

No, I mean rolling with the punches. Do I

look

like a flock-follower to you?

Just late to the party.

Then jump ahead in time, because I'm not going to take my time to help out the guy in the past.

My first newbie game was 5 pages long.

Was that how long you lasted, or how long it actually went on for?

How long the entire thing took.

In fact, I would ask a claim of DC for as long as he is at -1.

Right, I'll give you a claim. In fact, why haven't you asked for it yet, considering you're the one that put me at L-1?

I claim Town Roleblocker.

The real reason why I wondered about SC's role was because I didn't want to block a potential doc.

So you wanted to out the doc in order to prevent yourself from blocking them. Which you did by saying he was a cop.

Yeeeeah.

Hammer please!