Mini 945: Mafia in Bawlmer - GAME OVER

[Ythan]

Hey folks, glad to finally be able to confirm.

[Ythan]

My real name is Ethan so just go with that. My distraction is leaving town at 5:30, I'll run a train on this thread later on tonight.

[Ythan]

I hate to see a replacement try to slip by entirely no matter how scummy their predecessor was because they "can't do anything about it". I'll do a read through with comments now folks.

[Ythan]

DC did that thing where he called SC the cop. Then SC led (I think, not really important) a wagon on him that ended in a lynch. Then Ophanim, who SC had been in a spat with D1, dies instead. I hope you guys weren't trying to set up a safe position for SC with a planned bus.

[Ythan]

My predecessor has eight posts.

0 Confirmation.
1 I don't know one way or another so I personally wouldn't have asked, but ok good relevant question if you think so.
2 Blah stuff about xvart's signing of his posts.
3 EBWOP
4 Justifiable response since it was ML's first post after confirming.
5 I don't think SC was defending dram so much as attacking Oph, if this was about what I think it was about.
6 Right about DC, asks the lynch-to-be to claim. Don't know why she waited this long to call dram's miller claim WIFOM.
7 EBWOP

[Ythan]

I disagree with dramonic's WIFOM claims that he must be town because scum would have nothing to gain in claiming miller. I'm also curious as to why he voted DC since he never explained himself.

[Ythan]

Regarding xvart, is iso3 your explanation for the vote in iso1? Also a tip, bold the part of a post you want to talk about rather than striking everything else out. Iso7 is trying to stall a wagon with no good reason why it shouldn't go through. Iso10 is part defending scum and part accusations sans case.

[Ythan]

Lock's iso1 is a terribly hypocritical vote. 2 is riding Bob's coattails. 4 is a soft accusation he doesn't take anywhere. Starting in 8 he keeps pushing a wagon on my pred even though he never added anything to his initial reasoning. In 9 he adds another flimsy case to his portfolio, on Chevre. 10 he wants to wait for DC to answer questions made by other players before he decides how he reads him. In 11 he finally explains why he's suspicious of SK while blowing off the fact that he's taken so long to back up his accusation. And it's for pretty much what Lock himself is doing plus something with a vote.

[Ythan]

I'm not terribly happy with Lock's part in the discussion between him and bob. Dram, can you tell me why it looks like town on town?

[Ythan]

vote MacavityLock

You're twisting the hell out of bob's words and buddying the hell out of me.

[Ythan]

Coaching falls under the umbrella of buddying here.

[Ythan]

Why would you do that if I'm town, you ask? Did you not catch the buddying part?

[Ythan]

Get to lynching scum

without

questioning each other?

[Ythan]

Just like Ythill!

Do you possibly mean me? I ask because this has happened before.

They both scream town to me .-.

Did I ask why before?

[Ythan]

Ythan. And yes, saying "You're scummy for vague reasons, explain yourself" is loaded.

[Ythan]

Am I missing something? The part I keep seeing reference to is pretty much just "You're scummy because of a flip explain plz."

[Ythan]

He never asked me to explain my pred's actions.

[Ythan]

I'm thinking of naming my next dog Melbourne. I already have a Sydney.

[Ythan]

Pretty sure that was sarcasm on bob's part, I know for a fact that was sarcasm on my part, and neat.

[Ythan]

Then it's a good thing I didn't tell you to vote.

[Ythan]

re: my ISO10 - I was obviously wrong about the failtown/scum call, and I would've stuck by that until the lynch was done had the claim not been so fishy.

2. Sidekick and dramatic. I recognize that being a miller is pretty much a death sentence, whether or not you claim or investigated, so if I was the miller I would try and draw the NK.

Are these your explanations for the flip and your case against dram?

[Ythan]

Can you show me where you got the idea regarding his lynch? And are you asking if DC's flip somehow makes the miller claim more or less plausible?

[Ythan]

I want to know where you got the idea that we needed dram dead and may as well do it now instead of looking for scum. I would also like some explanation of how you thought the claim and flip were related, even if you no longer think so now.

[Ythan]

No I need to know why you want to lynch him today.

[Ythan]

You're asking why she specifically asked you? Are you suspicious of her? If not, why are you asking?

[Ythan]

If everyone could very briefly explain their vote in their next post.

[Ythan]

Could you briefly explain why you specifically chose Lock for your jumpstart vote?

[Ythan]

He's mine as well, but the purpose of my question was to get each player to commit to a specific rationalization.

[Ythan]

The fact that he said that does not matter. My accusation wasn't about your opinions differing. Also, OMGUS on Chev.

[Ythan]

They're two different situations. That's why I didn't call your vote on Bob scummy. But if you want me to review the incident and think it over again I will. As for why OMGUS is scummy, probably because it takes the place of a proper case. I don't like your explanation, and so I think it's bad altogether.

[Ythan]

I'm expecting Chev to flesh her answer out as I asked, but she hasn't posted since. And as far as your idea of sticking to your RV on SK, if you've been here since '08 I'm sure you know better than that. Show me that SK tends to flake as scum but not town, or she's just a flake, which are a dime a dozen.

[Ythan]

Flake wasn't the best word for me to use. I still think that what she did is pretty commonplace.

[Ythan]

I don't like his play but I wouldn't say he's flailing at this point.

[Ythan]

Fortunately Neto appears to be online.

[Ythan]

Well I saw him post in MD.

[Ythan]

I don't get how people forget about games. Do you have a load of watched threads or something?

[Ythan]

I feel you. I've got three history course papers bearing down on me.

[Ythan]

Oh hey I'm in a con law class too. But, it's pretty basic.

[Ythan]

Konowa does seem to have vanished.

[Ythan]

So dead. If anyone has anything specific they want to delve into before the lynch let's get to it.

[Ythan]

Unless anyone wants to look into anything else.

[Ythan]

So xvart votes bob in agreement with scummy Lock regarding not hammering a wagon he didn't have a problem with.

[Ythan]

So xvart votes bob in agreement with scummy Lock regarding not hammering a wagon he didn't have a problem with.

This is twisting my words. I NEVER said that Cyberbob was scummy for not hammering. I have no problem with the fact that he didn't hammer. I was pointing out that Chevre questioned (and voted) me for it, while she did not do the same to others.

How am I twisting your words exactly?I said

-xvart votes
-for bob
-agreed with Lock
-who is scummy

[Ythan]

Oh and I forgot to paste this.

Certainly true about Cyberbob and Ythan

Explain this in a way that doesn't make it look like you're brushing off every part of the accusations against you except what you can twist into something ridiculous.

[Ythan]

xvart is picking up on something that I asked Chevre about and running with it against Cyberbob. xvart is voting Cyberbob for a reason I haven't endorsed and I do not agree with.

I didn't say a single thing about what you did or did not do.

[Ythan]

Criticizing xvart. Pretty obviously too.

[Ythan]

I mentioned...that he did what he did...regarding you...

[Ythan]

I answered your questions but you're really dense.

[Ythan]

I'm not going to spoon feed you. If you have a follow up to ask that's one thing but if you're just going to keep saying "No not like that" then I'm not going to walk you through this.

[Ythan]

I have answered your question. At this point I am going to ignore you for as long as you continue to repeat yourself.

[Ythan]

So xvart votes bob in agreement with scummy Lock regarding not hammering a wagon he didn't have a problem with.

I said this questioning xvart for voting bob based on something you had said.

This is twisting my words. I NEVER said that Cyberbob was scummy for not hammering. I have no problem with the fact that he didn't hammer. I was pointing out that Chevre questioned (and voted) me for it, while she did not do the same to others.

You twist that to hell and back in order to pretend I'm twisting your words.

I'm completely daft.

And then you do this for a while.

[Ythan]

It was minor. I'm only holding onto it now because of ML's poor reaction.

[Ythan]

If you're trying not to get lynched stop posting fluff.

[Ythan]

Yes it's important, no it's not what you're doing, unless by interesting and useful you mean for the hunters looking for you.

[Ythan]

Nobody but Lock has had so much to explain away.

[Ythan]

I feel like Neto is coasting through this game and I need to review his play in this game and others.

[Ythan]

I'm seeing a lot of what looks like following Cyberbob. I think he's right about consolidation since we're facing a deadline but the degree to which players are just hopping on with no other contribution, such as xvart doing nothing but placing a vote and signing, is suspicious.

[Ythan]

I hope you're not too apathetic to back up those town reads with something more than gut.

[Ythan]

Oh shoot did you find mine?

[Ythan]

He's double serious.

[Ythan]

Konowa didn't specify but misspelled votes are usually accepted if unambiguous.

[Ythan]

May not have been an accident.

[Ythan]

unvote vote Chevre

[Ythan]

I think I hammered.

[Ythan]

Chevre had plenty of time to claim. Lynch on town's consensus suspect is better than no lynch.

[Ythan]

Blown up v shot. Anyone care about flavor? Might just be the new mod unaware of some flavor convention Konowa had planned for the game.

[Ythan]

No, it is WIFOM. You can say that it's not anti-town if you want but it is WIFOM.

[Ythan]

You can skip me, I see SC's post.

[Ythan]

But yeah so damn slow.

vote MacavityLock

I'd like to do it right today so let's not waste too much more time.

[Ythan]

I vote MacavityLock

Because he lead lynch for Town Watcher and I voted for him last day

Reason one is bad because it's based on information we didn't have until the flip. Reason two is bad because there was never a reason.

unvote vote lukepukeduke

Sorry to follow so hot on your heels, Coug.

[Ythan]

Nice contribution Lock.

[Ythan]

Heehee.

[Ythan]

I know our quick wagon of ML turned out well

Slip.

[Ythan]

I'm thinking one scum faction, probably three players in a game this size. Yes no?

[Ythan]

Would it interest anyone to know that I jailed SC last night?

[Ythan]

Or

[Ythan]

At least we can confirm you as either definitely mafia or definitely not mafia.

[Ythan]

Didn't n1. ML n2.

[Ythan]

Why jail SC last night?

Didn't want to jail the same person twice in a row if nothing happened the first time.

Ythan - did you consciously not jailkeep N1 or did you miss it?

Consciously. Part of it was that I didn't have enough to go on, part of it was that I was deciding how to play the role and didn't know what sort of player I should be looking for to target. I'd rather be a vanilla townie tbh it's a pretty unfun ability.

[Ythan]

Quick wagons are not exclusively under scum's domain.

[Ythan]

Also how does a Diz lynch put us in a better position to analyze me?

[Ythan]

No, your attempt to direct my night action and your WIFOM are not as good as you thought.

[Ythan]

Who wants whom. Is this correct so far?

StrangerCoug - xvart
Netopalis - Dizzle, Coug, Lock
xvart - Dizzle
MacavityLock - ?
Dizzle - ?
Cyberbob - ?

[Ythan]

My experience with Neto as a player is not extensive but his play in this game definitely has surprised me. Then again, I haven't seen him active recently.

[Ythan]

Unless it's a matter of suspicion I'd rather not explain how I chose and might continue to choose my target. Regarding not including myself in the list, I already know who I want.

[Ythan]

Sure is. Not that it isn't information someone else might want.

[Ythan]

Neto's not a lurker, he's clearly a flake.

[Ythan]

Mercer.

Hi welcome back.

[Ythan]

I'm not familiar with Mercer at all. There's Johnny Mercer but I doubt there's a connection.

[Ythan]

Johnny Mercer is at Mercer?

[Ythan]

Well neat. Anyway.

[Ythan]

You're going to make that conclusion after snipping out those two little points, the ones that just happen to concern you?

[Ythan]

Neto is demonstrably wrong, both in his read of Oph's interactions and the lynch wagons. Does that not interest you? Why are they "little points"?

That's not what I said. I'm questioning the conclusion you drew.

[Ythan]

Looks to me like you took two points out of that wall of text to respond to, the two about you, and used those to discredit the post as a whole.

[Ythan]

And I don't think the conclusion you drew follows.

[Ythan]

That's a poor question. If you hadn't just hopped into the conversation at this specific juncture I think you'd know. You're asking why the points

don't

justify the conclusion?

[Ythan]

I said the conclusion he drew. Follow closer.

[Ythan]

I'll repeat myself again. It does not follow. That it does not follow requires no explanation. The start and the finish, they are connected. That I see that they do not, that is my evidence. How much explanation do you require for something that isn't there?

[Ythan]

Hey guess what I said I disagree and you stretched your complaints out to like a page.

[Ythan]

Not you.

[Ythan]

Don't prod me bro.

[Ythan]

You find Neto's inactivity scummy, Diz?

[Ythan]

That doesn't explain why his inactivity is half of your explanation for voting.

[Ythan]

Actually it was half of his reason. Would have done better to leave it out, the other half is possible. Feel like he wanted something more to supplement it with, which makes me think he doesn't think it's much of a case.

[Ythan]

Do you mean that he feels threatened by you?

[Ythan]

Is there a connection between that mention and your current case?

[Ythan]

So you're saying that he's

not

blatantly lying?

[Ythan]

I don't feel that this is in line with your previous statements. Last straw for me.

vote Dizzle

[Ythan]

I voted you because I think you're scum. Am I supposed to be afraid that Neto's going to hammer?

[Ythan]

My recent incessant questioning of you has returned few if any satisfying answers.

[Ythan]

Dizzle wants you to know that he's not the

scummiest

player in the game.

[Ythan]

Diz, why are you asking those two specific players?

[Ythan]

Dizzle or xvart...I'll take a look.

[Ythan]

Yeah I don't like Diz's lynch or be lynched vote. At all actually.

[Ythan]

You know what actually, scratch that. Assuming for a moment that he is town (and knows 100% that he is town), it's not anti-town at all unless I'm mistaken. Still want him dead enough to leave my vote though.

[Ythan]

Maybe it's the lurking.

[Ythan]

This just reads like you're locked into me no matter what. Not necessarily scummy but certainly not pro-town.

This reads like you have some reading problems. The fact that you addressed a post made after it but not the one immediately following it is just, ugh.

[Ythan]

I saw the other post, but I was talking about your immediate reaction.

Oh. Well in that case don't care how you claim it reads to you because your accusation doesn't make sense.

[Ythan]

Hey Neto you just hammered.

[Ythan]

Competing wagon killed. If it was by a vig I think he should claim because in that case chances are I blocked scum last night. But don't claim just yet, I want to get a little feedback on this tactic.

[Ythan]

Not unbelievable, I have been an even-night vig before. Looking at how it all fits together.

[Ythan]

Are you also attacking him because you're the one I jailed last night, ML?

[Ythan]

I think that's a big glass of wine.

[Ythan]

Implicates bob?

[Ythan]

This has to be lylo. Claiming time?

[Ythan]

Not to call you idiots but unvote idiots.

[Ythan]

Can we get top two suspects from everyone? I'm sure you won't mind if I go last.

[Ythan]

Let me rephrase that. Can we get SC's top two suspects, then those of his number one, and so on.

[Ythan]

Bob, top two suspects in order.

[Ythan]

Neto, you're up.

[Ythan]

I've done so. Do you want them compiled?

Also it's ML's turn by default.

[Ythan]

Love the post, no, if you had to give a simple top two suspects?

[Ythan]

That should say now, not no, so that I don't look like a dick.

[Ythan]

StrangerCoug-Cyberbob/Neto
Cyberbob-Netopalis/StrangerCoug
Netopalis-Cyberbob/MacavityLock
MacavityLock-Cyberbob/Netopalis

Everyone except Bob had him listed as number one. Bob has Neto, who everyone else other than he himself has listed as number two.

[Ythan]

I'm thinking SC and you but I need to both ingest ML's post and ponder the implications of quick hammers that didn't occur today.

[Ythan]

No. I allow for his guilt. The likelihood that his claim is true is the same as the likelihood of his unspoken claim to being town.

[Ythan]

I don't see it as any less likely than vig, though I say this before accounting for balance. It would explain his reckless kill last night.

[Ythan]

SK is a hard enough role without getting half kills.

[Ythan]

Oh I see. If he's telling the truth then I must have either hit scum or scum targets. That's a thought, and it's a shame that I have to get off the computer right this second.

[Ythan]

Awesome, a task assigned to and overcome without me. Thanks ML.

[Ythan]

If neither he nor you are scum then there will be a quickhammer, you know.

[Ythan]

You

accept the risk? The risk that we all lose if you're wrong?

[Ythan]

I can take a swing at looking for connections between two living players but I'd like a little more time. I also just got another idea I'd like to try out. I'm sure other players have their own ideas too. I'd like to see SC remove his anti-town vote.

[Ythan]

I always seem to end up obv town, what's the deal.

[Ythan]

SC I am going to vote you if you do not unvote. There is no possible pro-town justification for what you're doing. Use an FoS if you want us to know how serious you are.

[Ythan]

I think it is likely that at least one of Neto and ML is town.

[Ythan]

After further review I realize that every pairing includes either Coug or Bob so I will explain. Neto and ML posted pretty closely together while a vote between two other players was in play. It is at least much less likely that they are scumbuddies, I believe, because they are the one pair that has had the opportunity to quicklynch today.

[Ythan]

Thanks babe.

[Ythan]

Who has changed their top two and why, in short? Anyone other than those who have come out to accuse SC?

[Ythan]

I wanted to get all the info we could from the lacks-of-quicklynch but after the reaction SC drew with his vote (heh) it didn't seem as if it would continue so I just explained.

[Ythan]

Sure. Bob could be claiming vig falsely, when the kill was actually the mafia's factional kill which he used.

Playing your hand a bit too hard there bro.

Vote: Netopalis

Vanilla townie.

I call BS on the vig claim. As I think MacavityLock said (and if not, I'm adding to him), we do not have evidence of more than one kill, vigging is risking giving the game to the Mafia, and for Cyberbob to be correct requires the extremely unlikely event of the Mafia missing three kills in a row.

His vote reason is crap, also. Basically cracking under the pressure.

Vote: Cyberbob

I can do SC.

[Ythan]

One of Neto/ML, one of SC/CB. I can't see either of those as a pair.

[Ythan]

I don't think it's so unlikely as to dominate our options.

[Ythan]

Yeah and a 9v3 game gives town less than a 20% chance to win if I recall correctly. Random percentages are entirely insufficient.

[Ythan]

They're not satisfying, and yet you're holding to them with unwavering confidence?

[Ythan]

Is that relevant?

[Ythan]

So because you're not voting?

[Ythan]

It seems to me as if you are as satisfied with your percentages argument as you're going to be with any today.

[Ythan]

Do you take issue with that?

Are we talking about me taking issue with a case on Bob?

[Ythan]

I think SC chainsaw defended Neto against Cyberbob at the top of page 26.

[Ythan]

In my opinion, Chainsaw isn't a tell until the protectee has flipped scum. Do you really think that alone is enough to outweigh things like Cyberbob's claimed vig that could have lost the game for town?

So it's the NK now?

[Ythan]

I misunderstood it too. But hey.

[Ythan]

I don't like that you're just making blanket statements about who is falling for scum tactics.

[Ythan]

I think we should use the time we have left to try to cross off as many potential pairings as we can. That's my approach so far.

[Ythan]

Really want to vote StrangerCoug.

[Ythan]

SC, have to agree with Bob about your pointless theatrics.

[Ythan]

You need to go ahead and die.

vote StrengerCoug

[Ythan]

Is that typo unambiguous enough for you, mod? If not

unvote vote StrangerCoug

-Either would've counted in my book. The intent was there in my eyes

.

[Ythan]

No, either scum will win or town will live another day.

[Ythan]

No it is lylo. But if we lynch right we still don't win unless we do again tomorrow.

[Ythan]

It didn't click in my head until now that with a confirmed miller and an unCC'd cop claim ML must be town.

[Ythan]

sc/np
sc/cb
np/cb

If we can cross off one of these then we know for sure for whom to vote today.

[Ythan]

unvote

[Ythan]

By the way, since the two votes still down are each either by or on scum there cannot be a scum quicklynch right now.

[Ythan]

How is it that nobody pointed out that confirmed miller = confirmed cop? I missed it because I'm dumb but there are five players here.

[Ythan]

Between DC trying to establish SC as the cop and buddying between SC and Neto I still think SC is the best bet. Probably Neto tomorrow.

[Ythan]

Either you're town and you're not scum or you're scum and SC is town. Because there is no reason to say this otherwise.

[Ythan]

Unless you wanted to come off as so town we'd reconsider. So let's see..

[Ythan]

At face value it seems to indicate that you and SC must not be buddies. Which would mean lynch Bob. But then my top suspects right before you said it were everyone but Bob so. If you're telling the truth then a lynch on someone other than you is safe. If you're scum then that would only serve to get Bob lynched. So SC should still be safe.

[Ythan]

Godfather is a concern. Do you still have a question re: your last comment? I assume you didn't see my very most recent post.

[Ythan]

How is it that nobody pointed out that confirmed miller = confirmed cop? I missed it because I'm dumb but there are five players here.

Hmm. Interesting thought.

Please tell me this is the first of many posts you intend to make in response to everything that's happened since you were last around.

[Ythan]

You don't really seem to be sweating your impending lynch, even though if you're town you know that it will cost your faction the game.

[Ythan]

Only scum should be putting their life first

Wrong. This is lylo if you haven't been paying attention.

Cyberbob is scum, most likely with Netopalis

I guess you aren't.

[Ythan]

Would nolynching and trying again work?

[Ythan]

Are you aware that if you are town Neto and Bob are almost confirmed scum?

[Ythan]

I think SC is scum. If he's one of our three townies I don't think we're winning this one anyway. I'm ready for dusk.

[Ythan]

but I did say I'm willing to die for my cause, and I'm willing to take the hit for it.

How are you missing that if a town player is lynched today scum wins.

[Ythan]

I wasn't thinking of no lynching today, just possibly tomorrow. Also, I don't think the scum gets to pick who kills AFTER learning which gets jailed.

[Ythan]

We definitely have to lynch today, and we have to hit scum. There's no question there.

[Ythan]

Your plan is mafia-role-interference-proof?

[Ythan]

Opposing jailers would not blow my mind.

[Ythan]

So there's no harm in ML's, if you don't think we're up against anything.

[Ythan]

This is probably better suited for postgame but when you've been here, which recently has been consistently, you've seemed fine to me.

[Ythan]

How are we to coordinate tonight, ML, as you suggest in 798?

[Ythan]

If there is a kill then the unjailed must be scum. If you get a guilty result then they must be scum because I doubt two millers very much. Sounds like it comes down to the lynch today.

[Ythan]

Does it matter which we do, if we get the lynch right?

[Ythan]

Anyone want to do a last minute meta check on SC?

[Ythan]

A thought occurs. Reviewing a bit.

[Ythan]

Hey mod, jailing works to prevent the use of factional abilities like mafia kills right?

[Ythan]

I guess it would confirm my claim if he were to answer. My role PM, not quoting here, indicates that it prevents my target from carrying out any action, so I'm going to assume that this is how it functions.