Mini 945: Mafia in Bawlmer - GAME OVER

[Dizzle]

CONFIRM

[Dizzle]

Whoa, sorry guys, I totally forgot about this game after I confirmed.

I don't have much time right now to add anything substantive, but I do wonder why scumDiamond would out the possible cop instead of just NK'ing him.

[Dizzle]

And.....that's L-1. How's about we chill out till Diamond shows up and talks about how exactly he thought we could benefit by possibly outing the cop?

[Dizzle]

Even if Diamond has only played 1 full game, you'd think he would know that potentially outing the cop, on the 1st day no less, is not a protown move. I'd also like to hear his response to Chevre's defense of indefinite words.

[Dizzle]

@Dizzle
What do you think of the Coug/Ophanim argument?

I come away from it seeing Ophanium as the scummier of the two. SC called him out on committing to a policy lynch with his 1st post of the game, Oph backtracked to saying that he'd vote dram until a better option arose and Oph generally overreacted to a simple, straightforward question. An overreaction like that so early in the game seems scummy to me. Not sure what to make of his disappearance though.

What's your view on Dram's miller claim?

Whether scum or cit, it's definitely an eventual suicide move. I guess I don't really understand what a true miller would have to gain from claiming right from the start. Sure, it saves any cop from wasting an investigation but wouldn't the best miller play be to play as protown as possible so that you're NK'ed instead of forcing the town to eventually exile you? I don't like it.

[Dizzle]

Could

be. But I said that they "can be a scumtell". Reading between the lines says "they

might

not".

Quit trying to use your indecisiveness to appear protown.

Who said there was a cat to let out of the bag in the first place?

Um, you did.

I don't care what anyone has to say, I am going to be voting for DiamondCrush at the end of this irregardless of whether or not it's a hammer. I am not leaving him alive to screw up the town anymore. There is no reason to claim someone is the cop at this stage regardless of alignment, and I fear for what he'll say next.

You fear what he'll say next? Really? Now this is how you appear to be protown; by basically saying you're being forced to hammer DC for good of the town.

Do you think that the DiamondCrash thing is failtown or scum?
Can you list the two players you're most suspicious of and why?
How would you describe your mafia playstyle?

1. Well, it's definitely fail no matter what his alignment because he's likely going to be lynched for it, nevermind the potential outing.
2. Oph - For the issues I had with his SC debate and his defense of lynching DC even if he's town. Of course, Oph isn't the only one voting DC or using those same reasons to defend his vote so I'm not too worried about him at the moment.
Sidekick - I'm all for bandwagoning as a tool to put pressure on other players, but to put someone at L-1 and suggest that they should claim when the game hadn't even been going on for a full 3 days...c'mon now, that's unnecessary and scummy.
3. I try to call out all the bullshit I see and ask as many questions as possible. Sadly, I'm usually not as active as I intend to be but I try to make up for it during my infrequent appearances.

And based on what I said above,

Vote: Sidekick

[Dizzle]

I'd disagree that RL time is entirely irrelevant as DC hadn't even had a chance to respond to the growing wagon yet. Either way, L-1/claim demanding by page 3 seems a bit excessive to me too.

[Dizzle]

I don't see anything necessarily scummy about the "I claim" thing but DC's BS about outing the doc/cop/whatever because he didn't want to Town Roleblock him is the strongest evidence against him yet. However, I would still prefer Sidekick/replacement to weigh in before we almost certainly hammer DC into oblivion.

[Dizzle]

Suspects:

Sidekick/Ythan - Yeah, DC's flip makes him look a little better but not enough to explain away his needless vote on DC.

Cyberbob - Came down hard on DC immediately after his "outing" but didn't take much to be convinced otherwise.

xvart - Called DC failtown in 1 post, ready to hammer in the next.

[Dizzle]

xvart - Did you vote DC solely for his terrible claim?

[Dizzle]

I come away from it seeing Ophanium as the scummier of the two. SC called him out on committing to a policy lynch with his 1st post of the game, Oph backtracked to saying that he'd vote dram until a better option arose and Oph generally overreacted to a simple, straightforward question. An overreaction like that so early in the game seems scummy to me. Not sure what to make of his disappearance though.

Agreed.

That was me, not Sidekick.

Is anyone as unsatisfied with xvart's explanation for his flip on DC as I am?

[Dizzle]

Hello, I think xvart is scum because of his flip on DC between iso10 and iso11.

Vote: xvart

[Dizzle]

Are you saddened that nobody jumped on your fishing for votes/testing the waters for my lynch?

I'm confused. Are you referring to the vote before your post? Because that's only three hours, and I don't jump that fast.

I find it suspicious when someone posts something that looks like gauging the waters on a possible wagon when followed up almost immediately with a vote. Why didn't Drizzle just vote the first time around? Nothing changed in the two posts sandwiched between his two.

You might have a point here if a wagon formed in between my posts but no such wagon appeared. I was the first vote on xvart and he's pretty much avoided all other suspicion until SC's recent FoS.

[Dizzle]

So what changed in between your two posts that solidified the vote? Why didn't you just vote in the first place?

xvart.

Well, I didn't vote when I first listed you as a suspect because I wanted to give you a chance to explain your seemingly sudden switch on DC. As for the post you're referencing, I probably shoud have just voted then. Once the next two posters also ignored the question I was asking, I realized that I would have to vote you if I wanted any discussion of your flip to ever occur.

[Dizzle]

Did I miss a case against Xvart? I saw him brought up a few times and no case. If someone has something they'd like me to look at in regards to his posts, I'd be more than happy to.

The major thing I have against xvart is the difference between his ISO 10 and 11 posts. In 10, he declares DC failtown but in 11 he says he's ready to hammer DC which he eventually does. Granted, some things occured during 10 and 11 but it felt like scum giving up on his partner to me....and apparently no one else.

Dizzle is a player that I really want to find as scum. For the life of me, though, I don't know why.

Oh great. Maybe I'll sound like a poker player complaining about all his bad beats, but I swear I get pinned with more unsubstantiated gut reads than anyone in the history of mafia

And yeah, not sure what to make of Neto's replication of his Chevre suspicions and I'll also finally weigh in on the ML debate tonight.

[Dizzle]

But xvart wasn't the only one to do this. At least one other person did in Cyberbob. (See his iso 10 & 12 vs iso 14.) One could make the case that you did too.

Fair enough, xvart's just stood out to me because of how immediate the flip was.

And all, I think, Ythan is saying is that he is criticizing xvart for agreeing with you, who he finds scummy.

[Dizzle]

I didn't catch it at the time but I find it suspicious when someone says they agree with the wagon, wouldn't support the hammer, but won't actually hammer himself. Is there something townish about that statement that I am missing?

Is this referring to myself, Macavity, or Cyberbob? Or all of us? For me, once DC claimed, it seemed inevitable that he would be the D1 lynch and nothing was going to change that. At that point, I thought it would be beneficial to allow Sidekick some more time to respond so that we would have some more information going into D2. It ended up being a moot point because Sidekick never showed up, but that was my thought process.

[Dizzle]

So with the wagon on ML stalling, xvart unvotes Cyberbob and then follow's Cyberbob's lead by quoting him and voting for Chevre....someone who xvart had never previously mentioned ANY suspicion of. Yeah, I'm cool with my vote on xvart.

[Dizzle]

Is it chainsaw time already?

As I understand it, a chainsaw defense is when you defend someone by attacking their attacker? Are you saying that I'm defending Chevre by attacking xvart? Nevermind the fact that I was already attacking xvart, but don't you find anything suspicious about xvart following your vote with no original reason listed anywhere?

[Dizzle]

My early D3 suspicions remain largely the same as my early D2 suspicions:

Cyberbob

- I bought your explanation for your wavering on DC, but I'm failing to see what moved you from voting ML to voting with him to lynch Chevre. How was DC jumping on Chevre for using indefinites "interesting"?
And I understand the need to avoid a NL, but this:

We have about 1 hour and 40 minutes until deadline. The following people are effectively voting No Lynch at this point:

MacavityLock (2): Ythan, lukepukeduke
xvart (2): Dizzle, StrangerCoug

just looked like an attempt to shift the focus/blame from the Chevre wagon.

xvart

- Some of this has been addressed, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. His quickflip on DC and mindless vote for Chevre are what bother me.

Netopalis

- Simple: lurking + randomly showing up and voting Chevre.

[Dizzle]

Dizzle: I explained my reasoning for switching to Chevre in the post that also contained my initial vote for him (here).

I saw that post, thanks, it just seems weird that you would suddenly switch to voting

with

the dude you'd been harassing all day. Did you no longer suspect ML? Do you no longer suspect ML?

I don't understand your point about the Chevre wagon. What focus/blame was there to shift?

The insinuation was that you knew Chevre would flip town so you preemptively tried to shift the focus to players who supposedly weren't doing their duty by avoiding a NL.

[Dizzle]

Right, so basically you're making shit up because you've already got me in your head as someone suspicious. That's a fallacy, you know.

I didn't make any shit up. Redirecting the attention elsewhere as you were voting Chevre just looked weird to me. That's the truth.

[Dizzle]

I know our quick wagon of ML turned out well, but this one feels different to me. luke's ill-advised vote seems more like a noob not sure what to be looking for and I doubt scum would be so willing to wagon another one of their own so early in the game.

[Dizzle]

Hold up guys, can we get back to that terrible lynch? Why on earth was luke lynched so quickly?

[Dizzle]

First RVS vote on DC, note that RVS vote was still on DC.

What is this even referring to? I never voted for DC and DC eventually removed his RVS vote on me.

quick wagon slip

Sorry, I messed up my abbreviations. Either way, I wasn't part of either the DC or ML wagons.

calling how "off" the luke lynch felt

My bad, guess I should have just gone along and quick lynched a clearly noobish guy not given a chance to legitimately defend himself.

wanting to focus on the terrible lynch instead of the jailkeep thing (or both).

The jailkeep thing is definitly an issue but there had been no mention of that awful lynch in the first 15 D4 posts.

[Dizzle]

What about my other points?

Also, ML, what about Ythan's comment makes you believe his jailkeeper claim?

[Dizzle]

Only scum "quick wagon" to my knowledge. And as you noted, you were not a part of it.

Even if it were true that only scum quick wagon, how is this even a point against me? By your logic, if I were scum, wouldn't I likely have joined 1 of those quick wagons?

[Dizzle]

xvart

- Immediate flip on DC, following his top suspect's lead by voting Chevre out of nowhere, strangely weak case on myself.

Netopalis

- Worst lurker out there, basically just an inactive at this point.

StrangerCoug

- Not sure why, but things just seem off with SC. I'm feeling a little lazy right now, but I'll do a re-read and see if I can pinpoint my gut suspicion of SC.

[Dizzle]

Also, note this quote:

I know our quick wagon of ML turned out well, but this one feels different to me. luke's ill-advised vote seems more like a noob not sure what to be looking for and I doubt scum would be so willing to wagon another one of their own so early in the game.

I normally don't like going after scumslips, but this one is pretty serious. Our quick wagon of ML? He meant to indicate DiamondCrash. There is no way to make a typo from DC to ML - the keys are on the opposite side of the keyboard. It's true that they are the only two players that are consistently represented by two-letter acronyms...but since both were off of the DC wagon, I think that it's entirely plausible that they are a scumteam.

So this slip is that I got my supposed scummates DC and ML mixed up? If I had said SC, would you be suspecting him too?

Xvart and Cyberbob have shown consistently pro-town play throughout the game. Both were among the early attackers on the DC wagon. I think that, at least for today, there's no strong case for lynching them.

This is just plain false. Cyberbob was all over DC but xvart was calling DC failtown until he switched his vote near the end. Actually, he was the hammer....where are you pulling this shit from?

[Dizzle]

And....why not?

[Dizzle]

I have been following but I still still think ML's question is valid. Please explain why you think his explanation is off for simple-minded people such as myself.

[Dizzle]

I said the conclusion he drew. Follow closer.

Smart lad, eh? Why does the conclusion he drew follows?

-Fixed quote tags
-The Amish one

[Dizzle]

So many things wrong with my previous post, I think most can figure it out.

[Dizzle]

I'll repeat myself again. It does not follow. That it does not follow requires no explanation. The start and the finish, they are connected. That I see that they do not, that is my evidence. How much explanation do you require for something that isn't there?

I guess the problem is that I think ML's conclusion definitely follows. Just look at all the points that Neto has been 100% wrong about yet he continues to maintain that ML and I are obviously a scumteam.

For example:

4) Dizzle and MacavityLock have been suspiciously connected. Dizzle asks ML a lot of open-ended questions that try to appear probing but are really just designed to lead him to safe answers. If you look at MacavityLock in isolation and search for each time he mentions Dizzle, he doesn't even mention him D1. On other days, it's never anything other than to include him in a list or put out a defense on him.

A lot of open-ended questions? I found just 1...if Neto found a lot I'd like them pointed out to me. And as far as ML mentioning me, Neto is yet again plainly wrong. ML questioned why I wasn't being suspected for a similar stance on DC and he also refuted my suspicion of xvart.

[Dizzle]

...but xvart was calling DC failtown until he switched his vote near the end.

How long are you going to keep harping on this? If you keep repeating it do you think it more people will think it is a valid case?

Yes, I still think it's a valid point but that's not why I mentioned it. Neto falsely claimed that you were an early attacker of DC so I felt it necessary to point out his error and make sure he knew the truth.

[Dizzle]

I still don't like xvart and I still have questions about SC, but Neto's lurking/inactivity combined with his series of misrepresentations or outright lies stands out more to me.

Vote: Netopalis

[Dizzle]

Not really, but the last time I labeled Neto a lurker you corrected me. Just doing your work for you this time.

[Dizzle]

Actually, it does, because what you have termed "inactivity" or "flaking" I have termed "lurking".

[Dizzle]

That's largely irrelevant. For all we know, you could be lurking scum in those games too.

[Dizzle]

I first mentioned you, Neto, as a suspect of mine long before you ever made your ML case.

[Dizzle]

The first time I mentioned Neto was primarily because of what I perceived to be lurking so, yes, there is a connection to the current case. I also didn't like how he showed up and simply voted Chevre without adding any additional comments, questions, concerns, etc.

[Dizzle]

How about I dog you about something else then? What are we to make of the myriad of falsehoods you've declared throughout the course of the game?

[Dizzle]

CyberBob - Why would you be down with lynching me? Do you no longer feel Neto is attempting to buddy you up?

Neto - What worries me about you is your carelessness with the evidence you present. Why? Because scum know that, unless they are bussing, that each piece of evidence of someone's guilt isn't true to begin with. Since they are creating cases out of nothing, I feel it's more likely for them to make the little mistakes that you've made over and over again.

[Dizzle]

Where did I say it was impossible? All I'm saying is that it's more likely for scum to present fiction as fact because they are presenting townies as scum.

[Dizzle]

SC - it's not about mislynching town, it's repeated misrepresentations or pure faulty information.

[Dizzle]

It's not about purposely making false statements or blatantly misrepresenting, obviously that would be a really easy way to find yourself lynched. Since scum are lying their way through the game they are more prone to getting their facts mixed up. No one really seems to be with me on this, but I believe it.

[Dizzle]

He definitely said a lot of things that were false. Whether it was by design or he simply lost track of the truth because he was more interested in framing townies, I don't know.

[Dizzle]

I don't feel that this is in line with your previous statements.

Would you care to clarify this at all? And given Neto's views towards me, is it such a great idea for me to be at L-1?

[Dizzle]

Luke got hammered pretty quickly, but whatever, I'm more interested in your clarification.

[Dizzle]

My recent incessant questioning of you has returned few if any satisfying answers.

You've questioned me, sure, but I don't think you've once said what you actually find scummy about me. Seems like kind of an important thing to mention.

But why would he be so worried about getting rid of Dramonic? Dramonic didn't even

mention

Xvart. At all.

Well, he did say he had insecurities about you...

That's largely irrelevant. For all we know, you could be lurking scum in those games too.

That's quite a stretch, don't you think?xvart.

The point was that we shouldn't concern ourselves with what Neto says is going on his other games or in his real life.

Yes. Typically townies wouldn't say "my claim is this..." or "I'm claiming this..." They say "I am..."

That's pretty weak, in my opinion.

Seconded. Especially if that was enough to push you from failtown to scum on DC.

[Dizzle]

Has my terrible reaching nullified Neto's buddying?

[Dizzle]

Dizzle wants you to know that he's not the

scummiest

player in the game.

Nope, just wondering what happened to his top scum read.

ML/SC - What are your thoughts on the way this lynch seems to be going?

[Dizzle]

Diz, why are you asking those two specific players?

Well, I pretty much knew how the other 4 players felt about it because they had all weighed in.

[Dizzle]

Now, I wanted him lynched too; he was clearly scummy. But I don't see why you were in such a rush to hammer.

I didn't see a reason to wait since I agreed, you agreed, and a majority of the town had agreed.

A majority found luke's actions scummy enough to warrant a vote but I'd doubt all those voters wanted him lynched so quickly. Given luke's activity level, he may not have offered us much more. However, he should have had the opportunity to properly defend himself and we should have had the opportunity to discuss the situation. Anyway, getting to be about that time where it's lynch or be lynched.

Unvote

Vote: xvart

[Dizzle]

Dizzle or xvart...I'll take a look.

Well? Did you take a look at xvart?

Yeah I don't like Diz's lynch or be lynched vote. At all actually.

This just reads like you're locked into me no matter what. Not necessarily scummy but certainly not pro-town.

Also, Neto hasn't posted in 5 days, and needs a prod.

So Neto does very little the entire game, comes back and participates just enough to direct suspicion elsewhere, and then disappears again. Yeah, I'd be totally fine switching my vote back to him.

[Dizzle]

I saw the other post, but I was talking about your immediate reaction.

[Dizzle]

Yikes, looks like I was wrong on just about everything in this game...

Anyway, great game SC and ML. I don't think there was any pregame talk so I'm sure you had to be freaking out a bit when DC "outed" SC as the cop.