Mini 985:Madness at Night: Game over

[Sando]

/confirm

[Sando]

Sup, this game started just as I went to bed, then work, then bludging around at home, so post time!

I'm aussie btw, so GMT +10. This would make about a dozen games for me.

Hiphop was looking very good till the vote on almaster. The whole 'I'm going to act like an idiot to catch opportunistic scum' was a bit labored, and I think hiphop isn't addressing why almaster actually voted for him.

Podium is most town by far so far.

Questions:

Wicked, jumping over RVS questions pings my radar, they're a fairly common tool used, mainly to move the RVS along, why do you appear to dislike them?

Hiphop/Crypto, why, simply because almasta decided to call hiphop obnoxious, does that automatically mean that's what the vote is for?

Hiphop, why does there being no connection between obnoxious and scummy mean you're not scummy?

[Sando]

Since I missed it, and you seem to see it, why did Almaster vote for me? And don't go making up something, give me a quote.

Because he wanted to start a BW, that seems fairly obvious...

Who says I am not? Where did I say I was not? Am I scummy to you? Why?

See this:

Votes me because I am being obnoxious, but that does not make me scummy. Interesting.

'interesting', especially given that you voted him in your next post with no further reasoning, is basically you saying he's contradicting himself. He didn't, just because he doesn't think you being obnoxious is scummy, doesn't mean he doesn't think you're scummy.

Do I find you scummy? I said in my post why I'm suspicious of your game so far:

Hiphop was looking very good till the vote on almaster. The whole 'I'm going to act like an idiot to catch opportunistic scum' was a bit labored, and I think hiphop isn't addressing why almaster actually voted for him.

He made an observation about hiphop and then voted hiphop. I assumed the two items were connected as opposed to bizarrely disconnected.

Why would it be a bizarre disconnect? Not everything scum do is scummy, not everything town do is townie. Why does finding someone obnoxious mean that you find them scummy? Do you normally find obnoxious people are scummy in your games?

Llama you're voting alamasta for no given reasons, but you 'would have voted him anyway'. Your vote seems like a jump onto a popular wagon, providing no reasoning yet hinting that you may have some.

Vote: Llama

[Sando]

You'll get yelled at for stating what others have said as if it's your opinion. But 'I agree with X's reasonings and will vote Y' is exactly what mafia is about.

You attacked someone for jumping on a wagon for no reason, then did it yourself, seems pretty hypocritical. I would think that thought would go through your head when you voted alamasta?

Surely if you thought that your vote was obvious enough not to require an explanation, the same could be true of someone else?

[Sando]

Alamaster jumped on a wagon, and people decided to link 1 part of his post with that. He's stated that it wasn't the reason he voted for hiphop, you keep ignoring this fact.

You then jumped on the alamaster wagon for literally no given reason.

Please quote where alamaster said 'I am voting hiphop for said stupid reason'.

[Sando]

There's no connection at all. He's just being annoying.

Was that not him saying he was voting him for being annoying?

Ummm, no, the complete opposite actually.

[Sando]

Where? He did not say, "I did not vote hiphop because he is being obnoxious." Nor did he make any statement that resembles that statement at all. Then I think...Wait a minute your the one that stated that. Not him. So llama is supposed to believe some statement that

you

pulled out of thin air? Now perhaps you can answer my questions.

Crypto asked:

AlmasterGM, what's the connection between hiphop being obnoxious and hiphop being scummy?

Almaster responded

There's no connection at all. He's just being annoying.

Yeah I'm pretty sure Almaster did say something to that effect.

Are you sure? why? People hop on a bw because they believe the guy is scummy, which leads to the whole obnoxious thing(<--the only thing that Almaster addressed about me). But as Almaster said obnoxious does not equal scummy. So I ask you again why did Almaster vote for me?

People BW very early for reaction and to end RVS, it's a very common tactic.

How can I address why he voted for me, if he doesn't say why I am scummy?

Where did he ask you to address his points? When I want someone to address my points, I'll make those points. If I don't feel you need to address something, I won't force the issue, and might not even post the points.

So I ask you again, why am I scummy?

I've merely said that I'm suspicious of you for your current play. I haven't voted you, I haven't said you're scum, I haven't FOS'd you.

[Sando]

Fine, if Almaster voted you purely for being obnoxious, then I guess I was wrong.

I've stated why I'm suspicious of you, then I quoted what I said, then you quoted it. Just because 1 part of it was incorrect doesn't invalidate my suspicions. Stop pretending that I haven't made myself clear.

I think your 'I'm going to act like a jackass to get scum to jump on an easy target' was pretty contrived. I don't think a townie would legitimately think they'd catch scum with that.

Also, I haven't made a 'case' against you, I haven't voted you, I haven't FOSd you, all I said was that you were looking good (townie) until your almaster vote. In my original post I don't think I even said I found you suspicious, just not obv town. You're taking this completely out of context and making something from nothing.

[Sando]

I dont like SSBF's vote on llama... both for supporting sandros case, and for what i feel are weak reasons of his own.

I quite like his point regarding the OMGUS, llama is basically saying 'I'd vote Sando but I'm scarred I'll look scummy'. Townies tend to, or should tend to, worry less about looking scummy and more about finding scum. Trying to turn that back on me by saying i'd react by getting 'pissy' was also pretty left-field.

OMGUS is a wildly over-used term btw, and it's unlikely it will come out of my mouth as an accusation.

BTW, I mean his point about llama not voting me due to being accused on OMGUS, not that his vote was OMGUS.

[Sando]

Pretty sure you're still voting him from RVS

[Sando]

Llama, you spend an entire (and pretty long post at that) attacking almasta, then vote me? Some reasoning beyond 'he's attacking me still' would be nice, especially given that you're being attacked for

not

providing reasoning.

I agree with podium though, Llama looks more like bad play than scum, and yes, I was pushing him podium, I wanted a reaction and I got one.

Spyrex is pretty quiet, and given I

think

he's whinging about the lack of content at the start of the game, he's provided basically none this game.

Hrrrfff this start.

Attacking someone for not having a scum read then basically providing no reasoning beyond that that itself is scummy, seems like simply wanting to attack SSBF and not wanting to be called a hypocrite.

Unvote, Vote: Spyrex

Spyrex, if SSBF hadn't said they found noone suspicious, since you haven't really expressed any concerns about anyone else, presumably you'd be in the same situation he is in? Who else do you find scummy? Why?

[Sando]

to make funky quotes, do [quote="name"

Obviously then just close the []'s.

[Sando]

This is the main reason, why you find me suspicious. Why did you not like my vote on Almaster?

Hey, he finally gets it! I've stated why I find you suspicious about 5 times now, simply saying 'hey you're not giving a reason' doesn't make it so. I've also stated about 5 times that I don't find you particularly scummy, in fact you're obviously not in at the top given that when I unvoted Llama, I didn't vote you.

Yes, you're vote on Almaster was terrible, it was basically 'ahah! Scum has fallen into my devious trap'. Whether you still think he's scum, the initial vote was pretty bad. People following were just as bad.

What if I told you that when I was acting like one, I had no intentions to start an easy bw on me, but I did however go with it.

Are we playing in hypothetical land now? I wouldn't believe you, you had to know you'd get at least 2-3 votes, you're not an idiot, and you jumped on the first person to BW you.

Baby steps my lord.

I'm not about to go ohh snap RVS is over, unvote and then say I addressed these things when I haven't.

I've got a triumvrate of people who I think are, in fact, town and a whole mess of jerks that need to shake themselves through.

That seems to be about the reason for you voting SSBF though...

Regarding the Miller claim, this isn't simply a Miller claim though, this is a Death Miller, which as far as I'm aware is a very rarely used role. I agree with hiphop on this one though, I don't see the point in lynching for it, and I don't think it gets town points, basically status quo, lynch if we genuinely think scum.

[Sando]

O RLY? I'm pretty sure everything Wicked said was true. He did avoid the question. He did try to disguise this by pointing out that he didn't vote/fos him. Or maybe he thought that excused his not answering the question. I dunno.

Seriously? He's asking me why I find him scummy, when I have never said that I find him scummy. I'll show you how stupid this is:

Crypto, why do you find me scummy?!?!?!

See? Stupid question.

[Sando]

That is a big fat lie:

How about you tell me in this, the actual comment I made about hiphop, where I said he was scummy:

Hiphop was looking very good till the vote on almaster. The whole 'I'm going to act like an idiot to catch opportunistic scum' was a bit labored, and I think hiphop isn't addressing why almaster actually voted for him.

How about you show me where, ever, I've said that I found hiphop scummy. Scummy, not 'suspicious'. I'll tell you when I find someone scummy.

You're putting words in my mouth, get over it.

And don't use 96 as an excuse to either vote spyrex or lynch the claimed miller. That was exceedingly exceptional circumstances, given he was investigated N0. Also, what do you expect a town-miller to do?

Your reasoning for voting Spyrex is extremely weak.

[Sando]

Hiphop looked pro-town (very good) because he was doing his best to act obnoxious and draw attention to himself. 'Very good' was probably a bad term to use, as I don't think it's good play, but I think it's townie play. I didn't like his vote on almaster, it made his buffoon play look less like drawing out scum, and more like jumping on someone who fell into his 'trap'. Just because I think it looked like a fairly obvious (labored) attempt doesn't change my view of the motivations behind it.

You were townie for reacting how you did to hiphop, and not getting drawn into silly arguments and attacking such an obvious target. Your view of hiphop made me think town, scum aren't likely to declare a 'buffoon' town in my opinion.

[Sando]

Llama, who do you not think at this stage is town? In effect, who are you not prepared to say is town at this juncture? I'm willing to bet it's a long list, as would all of towns, and the reason for that is simple, you still suspect them. Actually, you don't need to answer that, just think about it.

I'm suspicious of anyone who I don't feel is town, do you not agree with this?

SSBF, who exactly are you 'agreeing' with regarding the points on Spyrex? Your 2 points are in answer to being asked what parts of the case on Spyrex you agree with, but those points seem to be your own, not someone you agree with.

[Sando]

No, Spyrex's vote on SSBF is pretty BS considering his play at that point. He basically attacked SSBF for not having any scum on his radar, yet Spyrex himself refused to say that he thought anyone was scummy other than SSBF. From that, it can be inferred that if not for SSBF not having any scum-targets, either would Spyrex.

Also, claiming that there's been little to no content, then attacking someone for not having any targets is pretty weird logic...

[Sando]

And the assumption that if not for that I wouldn't have had a vote out is tech. Real, real tech.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'tech', but if you are implying that I'm stretching, I'm really not. I specifically asked you in my initial case on you who you found scummy other than SSBF, and you refused to answer. I took that to mean that you weren't prepared to say that you found anyone scummy other than SSBF.

Here's my question:

Spyrex, if SSBF hadn't said they found noone suspicious, since you haven't really expressed any concerns about anyone else, presumably you'd be in the same situation he is in? Who else do you find scummy? Why?

And your response:

Baby steps my lord.

I'm not about to go ohh snap RVS is over, unvote and then say I addressed these things when I haven't.

I've got a triumvrate of people who I think are, in fact, town and a whole mess of jerks that need to shake themselves through.

That seems like a pretty clear refusal to state that anyone other than SSBF is scummy, and I inferred from that refusal that you wouldn't be voting anyone other than SSBF at that point, I don't think that's a stretch at all.

[Sando]

I consider scummy to mean the same thing as suspicious. I think that if you find a player suspicious that means you find them scummy. You don't think so? What is the difference?

I'm 'suspicious' of anyone who I don't think of as town, do you disagree with this statement?
Suspicious is not obv-town
Scummy is...scummy.

If you're going to get all indignant about missing questions, how about actually pointing out what I've missed instead of just making arbitrary statements.

[Sando]

Now, why would you question someone's action? Because you think scum would do it. Scummy = suspicious. Word games are fail. They can be hella fun, but trying to wiggle out of a lynch through them is not a good idea.

Uggh, I don't have time to do the rest of it, but I mostly agree with Wicked and Hiphop. I don't really care who you guys lynch out of the popular suspects though (as long as it isn't me). Sando lynch ftw.

You're kidding right? I'm being attacked over the 'word games', the only reason I'm talking about suspicious vs scummy is because you and others are attacking me for it, and now that I'm answering, you're claiming that that in itself is scummy?

But I'll ask you again, who are you not prepared to say is town? Why are you not prepared to say that someone is town?

There are actions that I think both town and scum could/would do, like claim Miller early D1 for no real reason, it's both a town move and a scum move. It's suspicious, but not scummy.

Then there's scum moves, like active lurking, which is something that town should never do and have no in-game reason for doing, while scum do it to avoid notice, that's scummy.

Merely stating that everything suspicious is scummy does not make it true.

[Sando]

Wait, why is claiming death miller a death warrant? Miller I could at least see being lynched as a bit of a policy because you can at least confirm if they were lying or not. A death miller basically puts you at square 1, you lynch them based on scumminess, knowing that they're basically a no-reveal.

Basically, claiming death miller gives no incentive for town to lynch you as far as I can see? Why do you see it as such a pro-town move?

[Sando]

Well you at least get info from lynching a miller, what info do you get from lynching a death miller?

And what's looking like a duck and quacking like a duck got to do with it? If he looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, kill the duck, I don't think anyone has said otherwise. Do you think he looks like a duck outside of the miller claim?

[Sando]

You don't lynch millers "for information". You lynch millers because, in theory, it is a great smokescreen for scum to hide behind - namely, that investigations will make them come up scum even though they aren't.

My point isn't that you lynch them 'for' information, just that you will at least get some confirmation of the lynch result on a normal miller, you won't on a death miller.

Also, you seem to basically be saying that the claim is a death warrant on the person, therefore they must be town and we shouldn't lynch them...

How is it a death warrant if it's also a solid town-move that means we shouldn't lynch him?

[Sando]

Sando please address this. Am I a liar? Lynch all liars?

Ok, I'm not going to believe that you didn't purposefully act like a buffoon, do you expect me to believe it was a accident? Whether you wanted to get votes or not, I'm not really in a position to judge unfortunately, but I'm not going to take your word for it either way. I don't know if you're lying or not, but I don't simply take your word for it.

Sando- what was your point in arguing with Spyrex if neither of you want to lynch nomo?

You've noticed I'm voting Spyrex right? I thought his point was pretty illogical in its conclusions.

Oh, if ssbf is lying, the miller is a fake.

This seems like a fairly logical conclusion.

actually... yeah, he probably should investigate nopo... that would clear up the question.

assuming they aren't working together, of course.

Yikes, that is a funny combo to fake-claim together, but then, so is miller/cop.

I don't like the claim miller, wait to see if anyone counter-claims, then someone else claim cop at the first hint of trouble - vibe that I'm getting from the miller/cop claim combo.

However, I think from the wording of charters post that he sees the miller/cop combo as well, since he was 'suspicious of nopos claim', making the lack of vote even further worrying. I'm not sure why a gunsmith would cc a cop, but not a miller? Having a miller with a gunsmith seems just as unlikely as having a cop with a gunsmith? Why wait till now?

[Sando]

Deadline has been extended, although hasn't been stated when till, waiting on vote-count and deadline time/date to see where we're at.

SSBF's strongest lynch being "

He's fairly scummy and I wouldn't mind him lynched

" isn't exactly a strong read, and the fact that none of the other claimants are listed as either possible or probable, both being listed as null, seems pretty damn odd.

As for my opinion, I believe it for now. That may change depending on if his investigation is true or not. Therefore, I agree with hiphop in where Charter should investigate nopointinactingup.

How exactly are you going to know if the investigation is true or not SSBF?

I agree with Spyrex that the chances of us having both a gunsmith and cop are extremely low, although with the caveat that I have no idea how sanities would affect that. But I think that insanities would make it more swingy.

[Sando]

Ok... Where's the question there? Can you at least see why I might be confused, you're quoting statements, not questions. Questions end with question marks (?), to get it you hold shift, then press the / key...

In answer the the

statement

about trying to defend almaster or attacking hiphop, I was trying to point out a problem why Hiphops reasoning was illogical, and trying to generate discussion.

In answer to your second statement about questioning hiphop about not being suspicious, where did I ever say that I didn't think almaster found hiphop suspicious.

This is scummy. He completely avoids answering hiphop's question while at the same time he feels the need to point out that he hasn't voted, fos'd, or called hiphop scum.

So when asked why I find someone scum, I point out that I didn't and that I had never said that I did, and you think I was dodging the question? Righto... By the way, I answered his question because it was in fact a question, had one of them special question marks afterwards to warn me.

I consider suspicious to equal scummy.

Thank you for this well considered response...

[Sando]

So wait, the idea is that 2 strong investigative roles is somehow offset by a miller, a role that will invariably D1 claim, throwing out a lot of the downside? Added to the fact that one of those strong investigative roles can actually confirm/deny the miller claim? Nope, not happening, that's insanely strong for town.

I think the cop claim makes more sense, but that SSBF is also acting more scummy.

And barring any way to confirm any of these claims overnight with their 'investigates', which I can't see, I don't think leaving this till tomorrow is a great idea.

When is new deadline btw?

[Sando]

Ok hiphop, I thought you meant that because of the miller, the 2 PRs were more likely. You're saying 2 PRs (non-fake) make the miller more likely? Yeah that makes sense.

2 investigative roles is retardedly good, yes SSBF. For reference, I've only played 1 game with more than 1 investigative role in it as town, and Spyrex modded it I believe (PYP). There were also more players in that game, and the investigative roles still dominated the game and the scum never stood a chance. And that was a tracker/gunsmith combo, cop/gunsmith would be more broken I feel.

Unvote, Vote: SSBF

I'm going to trust the scum-read on SSBF over the more legit claim I think here. I'm of the opinion that Llama is floundering town, I don't think he's a good lynch, and having this cop/gunsmith dominate 2 days doesn't seem like a good idea. Will only vote Llama for a deadline lynch.

That is L-2

[Sando]

Ok wait, only advantage of leaving SSBF alive is if he's town. Town cop will at minimum have cleared someone if we lynch them tomorrow. But I'm at least of the opinion not that if SSBF is scum that so is Nopo, but that SSBF and Nopo are both the same alignment. On that thinking, if we lynch SSBF in worst case we get a 'confirmed' townie in Nopo, without any real risk. And if SSBF turns scum, we get 2 scum.

Do you guys disagree with the statement that SSBF and Nopo are the same alignment? I agree that if SSBF is scum, so is Nopo and vice-versa, but I also think that if SSBF is town, so is Nopo. In this case, SSBF is a better choice in logical terms, plus I think he's scummier.

[Sando]

BTW, I work in insurance in Aus, which has a financial year ending 30 June, so yeah, I'm super busy at work and can't post as often for the next few days. And yes, the Wall-O-Texts are breaking me at the moment.

[Sando]

I think sando is still a pretty solid candidate. I think maf is/was pushing llama. This recent activity is making some other lynches look increasingly attractive... like spyrex...

That's a top notch argument for a lynch there... He asked why you're not pushing a case if you actually want me lynched?

Now you lost me. How is it that if SSBF is town, so is nopo? If SSBF is a real cop, what makes it that nopo did not fake claim? I can see the other way around.

Well yeah, other way round is obvious, but I think it's nearly as likely town-ways. Put it this way, if 1 of them is scum, I'm 90% sure the other is scum. If 1 of them is town, I'm 75% sure the other is town. It's not quite as good odds, but I still like those odds.

Anybody who is not on a wagon that is possibly heading for a lynch, should be looking at other wagons. That includes Sando, and Podium.

My vote will move in the next few hours to try and ensure a lynch, as tonight will be my last posting pre-deadline. Lynching a claimed death-miller is a mistake I feel, but it's certainly better than a no-lynch. Nopo's 'I'm going to vote myself, ahah! anyone that voted me is scummy' is pretty silly at this stage as well, well it's silly at any stage, but it's stupid to play around like that so close to deadline, puts Nopo well up in scum-stakes.

[Sando]

Unvote, Vote: Llama

As stated, we need a lynch, Llama and Nopo are both at the same votes and I think Llama is the better of the two.

[Sando]

No probs.

I told you I wouldn't have time today, and I still don't, I just got into work and this will be my last post pre-deadline. Your Wicked case is ok, but it's certainly not enough for me to swap to less than 24 hours till deadline, he's in no way obv-scum.

I do like how you accuse others of ignoring the claims drama, yet have consistently avoided actually taking a side in all of it. Your attempt to derail both of the possible/likely wagons 24 hours before deadline is noted though.

[Sando]

What am I being lynched on? A supposed 'slip' that Podium is simply making up.

I said I'd be busy because of end of financial year, I forgot to vote the night I said I would because I was dead tired and fell asleep, so I did it the next morning, then made one more response just as I got to work, and haven't had a chance to post until now, lunch the next day, I don't see how that contradicts anything I ever did, or constitutes 'lurking'.

Podium seems to be claiming that me saying 'I'll only vote Llama to avoid a NL' and then voting Llama, who at the time was equal top wagon, within 24 hours of deadline is somehow me lying. I said I'd only vote Llama to avoid a NL, and did exactly that.

Am I missing anything? Or is this BS seriously all that there is?

[Sando]

VT

[Sando]

BTW, the idea that scum have pretty obviously set up at least 1-2 days worth of lynches surrounding the claims, then seem to have successfully moved away from that today onto a townie is pretty rediculous.

It's pretty obvious that the amount of WIFOM that's going to be flying around for the next 2 days is going to be pretty rediculous, lynching a townie before even attempting to limit it's effect is just plain stupid.

[Sando]

Ok hiphop, I thought you meant that because of the miller, the 2 PRs were more likely. You're saying 2 PRs (non-fake) make the miller more likely? Yeah that makes sense.

2 investigative roles is retardedly good, yes SSBF. For reference, I've only played 1 game with more than 1 investigative role in it as town, and Spyrex modded it I believe (PYP). There were also more players in that game, and the investigative roles still dominated the game and the scum never stood a chance. And that was a tracker/gunsmith combo, cop/gunsmith would be more broken I feel.

Unvote, Vote: SSBF

I'm going to trust the scum-read on SSBF over the more legit claim I think here. I'm of the opinion that Llama is floundering town, I don't think he's a good lynch, and having this cop/gunsmith dominate 2 days doesn't seem like a good idea.

Will only vote Llama for a deadline lynch

.

That is L-2

You're also completely ignoring this post. Way to misrepresent me, I specifically stated that I would vote Llama despite my read in order to try and ensure that there was not a NL.

[Sando]

Wicked was certainly was not a viable candidate for lynch at that stage, and I did not have time to do much. You're blatantly taking advantage of the fact that I did not have time. My vote was best left on Llama because it was the most likely useful lynch.

I had no idea if wicked was going to attract other votes, I went and did exactly what I said I'd do, voted Llama to try and ensure no NL. Mind justifying to me how Wicked is or was a reasonable chance of being lynched? Or would you rather just make stuff up with no actual evidence?

[Sando]

I also like how you've thrown a case down on everyone basically, hoping against hope that one of them will stick, and then attacked anyone who didn't blindly go along with you.

Unvote, Vote: Podium

You claim to have offered opinions on the claims business, then do literally everything to try and get someone, anyone, else lynched. At least people like Spyrex have actually said their feelings and made their position well known.

[Sando]

Yes, but when else could i have made these cases on sando and wicked? My goal was to get the lynch off of NOPOINT, not llama. Common sense tells you i would try for someone i dont have a town read on.

And yet you attack me specifically for voting Llama, I'm calling BS.

[Sando]

I don't like the idea of lynching a claimed miller simply because he's a claimed miller, which is what I think a lot of others are advocating. I think I've consistently advocated simply lynching Nopo as if he's any other player, and simply realise that it's basically a no-reveal lynch, that is, lynch him on scumminess. While I think Nopo's actions were suspicious, it wasn't enough for me to lynch him over. Llama has been acting scummy, I simply have a gut read that he's floundering town. I'm a typically logical person, the lack of reason for lynching Nopo over-ruled my gut town read, and they were the 2 options for a lynch to avoid a NL at the time I felt.

[Sando]

You claim to not be trying to derail a Llama wagon, yet attack me for joining the wagon. It's a pretty obvious lie.

[Sando]

Are you talking to me Spyrex? I'm confused, SSBF is my first choice for lynch today, it's just obviously not going to happen, so 24 hours out from a deadline it wasn't viable to leave my vote on him.

[Sando]

You have to realise the chances of him pulling the exact same c*** tomorrow though right? The chances of getting decent ideas about the claims is low, the same arguments will exist. He either needs to be lynched or ignored and the actual job of scumhunting within the group that we KNOW contains scum start being done.

[Sando]

What was ridiculous about the alternatives?

It's that you presented EVERYONE except yourself and Llama as an alternative.

And are now claiming that you weren't trying to derail a Llama wagon...