Mini 237- Basic Mafia - Game over!

[Mr Stoofer]

vote: Mr Stoofer

How did I know you would say that?

Vote: Seol

Vote: Nightfall

in retaliation. Seol is far too nice a chap to lynch. (Unlike that evil Rainbow Brite girl.)

[Mr Stoofer]

We've heard nothing yet from d8P or vIQles.

[Mr Stoofer]

Since we are going to try and find scum while waiting for viQles, I'd like to ask Sineish and Commodore Amazing why they unvoted.

[Mr Stoofer]

He said the mix of roles meant that starting with day was the only way to make the game balanced

What do you guys think this means? How does starting with a Day change the balance of a game? Are there any roles that are too powerful when starting with a Night?

Starting at day means:

1. The town gets to lynch before the scum makes any kills

2. The town has to make its first lynch before any cop investigations or other info gathering

While point 2 is an advantage for the scum, point 1 may go either way depending on the set-up (with 2 killing groups it might be an advantage to the scum to start in day).

Others may be able to think of other effects of starting in day.

[Mr Stoofer]

Also, starting in day means that it's harder for scum to make up a fake claim on the first day. They have no idea what townie roles look like.

Good point. Perhaps we should start a bandwagon on someone and see where it leads? Care to volunteer?

[Mr Stoofer]

Checking in.

With all the replacements and stalling and hanging around, there is nothing much to go on.

The d8p thing is more likely nothing, blown out of proportion, than a genuine scum tell.

Ill

unvote: Nightfall

and

vote: Sineish

for the d8p thing and for being the nearest thing we've got to a lurker (as opposed to a non-poster). Weak reasons, but I prefer my vote to have a slender basis than no basis at all.

[Mr Stoofer]

That was predictable.

[Mr Stoofer]

"

The d8p thing

" refers to the debate/suspicion forming on d8p because of

this post

.

Sineish said of it: "

I can only conclude it's some subtle bluff to throw someone off

" (which I find a startling conclusion) and FOS-ed him. There was then big debate about d8p's post. I think you, Seol, were saying that d8p's post was suspicious although I confess I didn't really understand your post on the subject. But I believe it was just a simple comment.

So my vote on Sineish for "

the d8p thing

" was a vote for reading too much into d8p's post. Not very strong grounds, as I said, but I preferred it to my random vote. This game is moving slowly and this is the best I could do, since no-one seems to be volunteering to be bandwagonned.

[Mr Stoofer]

Stoofer, the only other alternative that I could think of was that d8P really does have a power roll and didn't realise that his post was such a huge tell. If you have an alternate explanation for his post, please share.

You said "I can

only conclude

it's some subtle bluff to throw someone off". But as you yourself say, there is an alternative. Your quickness to rule out that alternative struck me as odd.

As for the "that was predictable" comment, have you spotted some link between Falcone and me, or was it just a reaction to him voting for you?

The latter.

[Mr Stoofer]

Not overjoyed with my vote at the moment, but we have to lynch someone at deadline and I can't find a better candidate.

[Mr Stoofer]

Vote Count please.

[Mr Stoofer]

I could go for a (in order of preference) Stewie or Nightfall lynch for those reasons.

[Mr Stoofer]

At the moment, I'd be happy with my vote on either of Choco or Commodore.

Could you just sum up why, please?

[Mr Stoofer]

I don't understand that, ChocoCid. My vote is on Sineish for reasons explained in posts 85 and 96. But no one else agrees with me. With the deadline approaching we have to lynch

someone

, so when Falcone FOS-ed Stewie and Nightfall, I examined his reasons, thought they had some substance, and said that I would be prepared to lynch them -- if no-one else was interested in a Sineish lynch.

As I say, I believe we have to lynch someone today, and all I was saying was that Stewie and Nightfall are others I would be prepared to vote for. Almost anything is better than no lynch.

And I don't see how asking for a vote count can be scummy.

::Preview Pane Edit::
It's actually plain that no one else is suspicious of Sineish, so with the deadline in prospect I'll

unvote: Sineish

and

vote: Stewie

.

[Mr Stoofer]

So?

[Mr Stoofer]

Vikingfan

, please could you clarify the rules on deadline lynches.

[Mr Stoofer]

Ibeasha's post prompted me to pull up ChocCid's posts for a closer look and frankly I was bemused.

ChocoCid: please can you explain to me why you found Seol suspicious? If you no longer find him suspicious, at least explain why you previously thought he was suspicious (and why you no longer do).

[Mr Stoofer]

Still bemused.

[Mr Stoofer]

Stoofer either A) makes a post of very little content

I reject that. Any fair reading suggests that I'm better than average in this game with the total amount of content I've posted.

B) makes a post that appears to be for no other reason other than to move his vote around, again

I think I've moved my twice only. And I've done it because we have to lynch someone at deadline and there is no point leaving my vote on someone no else is voting for.

C) makes a comment about how someone elses post make little to no sense, when to me at least they did.

How is my inability to understand someone else scummy?

[Mr Stoofer]

Need to think.

My prime reason for voting Stewie was lurkiness (together with the fact the Stewie is normally an active player). Now he is actively participating, I'm not sure what to think about that. Just because he has been caught out lurking, doesn't mean he wasn't lurking scum in the first place. But on the other hand, it seems kinda weird to lurch someone, who is now an active player, "for lurking".

Hmmm.

[Mr Stoofer]

If there is a mafia - i'm a little surprised...

You're going to have to explain that to me, I am afraid.

[Mr Stoofer]

unvote: Stewie

but IGMEOY as possibly being a reformed lurker. Now he is participating I've read his posts carefully and I'm not getting a scummy vibe.

I've just finished a game (Newbie 142) with Nightfall. We were both townies there. But I'm getting a very different vibe from him in this game than I did in that game.

Could

both

our masons tell us whether their role PMs state

expressly

that their mason buddies are innocent.

[Mr Stoofer]

It says we can speak with each other at night, but are ordinary townies outside of that ability.

So yes, we're all innocent.

d8p: do you agree with Choco's analysis? Does your PM clear him?

[Mr Stoofer]

Are we likely to find anyone other than Nightfall to lynch today? Much rather him than no lynch at all.

[Mr Stoofer]

If I get it right, we need 4 votes to lynch someone at the deadline, so Nightfall is one away from a deadline-lynch.

Nope. He's miles away from a deadline lynch:

Vikingfan

, please could you clarify the rules on deadline lynches.

I think I'm going to change it to requiring the full lynch (7 or nolynch- I think we have enough active people here that getting the full 7 shouldn't be a problem.

[Mr Stoofer]

(Re-read of viQleS contribution to this game + the scum tell quoted below) x rapidly approaching deadline =

vote: viQleS

I would like to be the first to volunteer to be investigated tonight... You might not want to reveal the identity of the cop so soon, but then it might be worth the risk to reveal two innocents, i don't know... If not the info will come out later - I leave that up to the cop.

[Mr Stoofer]

As the deadline approached on day 1, the lynch-leader was Nightfall. But that bandwagon never really got going, even when it looked as though the alternative might be no lynch. On the other hand, the viQles bandwagon built up much faster. Now admittedly there was substantially more reason to think that viQles might be scum that Nightfall; but the difference in the speed of ther bandwagons was startling. Scum trying to save their buddy?

Vote: Nightfall

.

[Mr Stoofer]

There can be no doubt that scum killed ChocoCid becuase he was virtually a confirmed innocent - as d8p said.

Sineish must know that and I agree with d8p that he deserves a big old FOS.

[Mr Stoofer]

Having reviewed the thread, I think Sineish, Falcone and ibaesha are our Mafia.

I'd like to read Seol's analysis before I decide whether to switch my vote.

[Mr Stoofer]

OK, I'm convinced enough to switch my vote.

None of Seol's points on their own are really decisive (nothing ever is: see the viQles debacle). But they do add up to a decent argument IMHO. The point I think is of most significance is this one:

But for corroborating evidence, note that other than an opening random vote (which, if anything, reinforces my theory), none of those three ever had a bad word to say about any of the others, let alone an FOS or vote. Between the three of them, they covered

everyone else

.

I presume Seol meant to add the words "until today".

Anyway, this analysis is more persuasive than my initial reasons for voting Nightfall, so

unvote: Nightfall

and

vote: Sineish

.

[Mr Stoofer]

I'm a little dense, but I think I finally figured out what's going on here.

unvote: Seol, vote: Sineish

. One more is a lynch.

I don't know why but this post makes me think that Seol and CA might be up to something...

MOD

: can we have a vount count please?

[Mr Stoofer]

Just checkin' in. I'm happy with my vote (especialy since Sineish posted yesterday in DP13 but not here) until Sineish or anyone else can persuade me otherwise.

[Mr Stoofer]

I need a re-read.

[Mr Stoofer]

I'm still unhappy with this post:

I'm more interested in why ChocoCid was targeted. Effectively, the scum have used one of their kills (rather than us having to use a lynch) to completely confirm the mason group. Additionally, they chose the mason with the more dubious claim, even though there was little chance of them being blocked as we had just lost our doctor.

It seems to me that the reason for targetting ChocoCid was clear and that lloeads me to be suspicious of Siniesh for saying he doesn't understand it - trying to hard to distance himself from the scum?

If Sineish has tried to explain this, it hasn't penetrated my limited brain.

[Mr Stoofer]

I still don't understand this. The reason ChocCid was killed was surely because he was more or less confirmed pro-town, and the scum don't want confirmed players alive because it increases their chances of getting lynched. Surely it is standard practice to kill the townies who are confirmed?

[Mr Stoofer]

I like lynches that take a long time. Lynches of townies have scum-power to speed them up.

Not changing my vote.

[Mr Stoofer]

My best guess at the moment is Nightfall. He has twice been the subject of a bandwagon which has ended up on someone else - suggests to me that he has friends who want to keep him alive. And ibaesha was on his trail yesterday, so it make sense to kill her (especially if the scum had picked up any cop tells from ibaesha).

[Mr Stoofer]

I don't think there can be any doubt that it was -c-. There is no way she had a guilty result on anyone.

[Mr Stoofer]

Commodore, can you set out your case against Seol, please. I'd be delighted to find an excuse to lynch Seol but he's not seriously tripping my scumdar at present.

I am surprised that Seol said that "Non-sane cops in minis are

incredibly

rare". They are not. Seol was in Mini 211 where the (only) cop was paranoid, for example. But I can't see what good it does a scum to say this (quite the opposite of what a scum would be likely to argue, in fact).

[Mr Stoofer]

Of course it's banter, Seol.

[Mr Stoofer]

Commodore, can you set out your case against Seol, please.

[Mr Stoofer]

I believe Stewie's claim.

I can't get my head round the mathmatical permutations, but I believe that the "double lynch" strategy (i.e. using Stewie's vig kill as a second lynch) is the way to go.

To prevent scum corrupting the vote. I suggest that d8P, Stewie and the 3rd mason decide between them who are the ones to be lynched/vigged and the rest of us just vote to put this into effect. I will follow this strategy (even if it leads to my lynch, although I won't vote for myself out of principle).

But I still want to hear the Commodore's suspicions of Seol!

[Mr Stoofer]

I would like to hear

1.

who each of you thinks is suspicious and why,

2.

what you think of Stewie's plan and

3.

whether you are scum.

1. No-one is really tripping my scumdar, but I would put Seol at the top of my list at the moment. Falcone's post 364 was persuasive. The fact that Seol was on both town lynches (and was also wrong about ibeasha) is strong evidence against him because he is generally a good scum catcher. I don't like mikeburnfire's latest post either.

2. In favour, as previously stated.

3. No.

[Mr Stoofer]

Given that we are going to "double lynch", I think there is merit in a mass claim. I expect the mafia will be able to catch the doc quite easily now, with all the info that they have, and it would benefit the "lynching committee" to have all the info they can.

[Mr Stoofer]

Yes, you could mike, but it might be better if everyone waited before claiming. Are there any objections to my deciding the order? If not, then I suggest we go with the most starting with Seol, Commodre, and Nightfall.

Let's do it. I don't really care which of Stoofer and Falcone is last.

Come on then Seol: are you scum or what?

[Mr Stoofer]

I am a townie.

In answer to Nightfall: I am far from convinced that the mafia must have powers like doc/rolefinder/roleblocker etc. What I mean is, they or may or may not have such powers but there is no good reason to assume they must do. To that extent I disagree with mike's post 390. The posts smells a bit scummy to me but I don't know why (maybe it's just because I disagree with his reasoning). Apart from that I don't think I can say anything else about it.

Hmmm... I think even I can work out that Falcone is the last mason. That makes our lynch committee d8p, Stewie and Falcone. Choose wisely gentlemen - and preferably, choose Seol.

[Mr Stoofer]

I have never been in a game where a non-sane cop was merely called "cop" in his death scene. [I've tried to argue it as scum, and failed.]

I can't believe that there are 2 sane cops in this game.

Nightfall is not an insane cop because he got an innocent on me.

Therefore Nightfall must be either (a) naive cop or (b) scumbag. Both are perfectly plausible, although I would guess that he is scum with Seol and mikeburnfire.

Fortunately, I don't have to decide because I am not on the lynching committee. I am going to follow the will of the lynching committee and will regard anyone who doesn't with grave suspicion.

[Mr Stoofer]

I certainly wasn't trying to stop anyone talking: I was just saying that once the lynch committee have decided what to did its up to every honest pro-town player to abide by their decision.

But I'll be upset if their decision doesn't involve lynching mikeburnfire, a.k.a. Scummy McScummington. I think the point that CA was trying to make, which I agree with, is that he claimed roleblocker out of the blue, to try to pre-empt the "real" pro-town roleblocker. As it happened it wasn't necesary since their isn't a pro-town roleblocker.

Nothing I've read since my last post makes me think that the scum is any other than Nightfall, mikeburnfire and Seol.

[Mr Stoofer]

No objections. I'll happily vote for mike if the committee agrees.

[Mr Stoofer]

I'm beginning to come round to the possibility of Commodore as scum. The last time he said something like this...[quote=Commodore Amazing], help me out here. You've been just going along with every thing I say; put some work into this game. You're better at this than I am. Help Falcone see that it's possible that mikeburnfire and Nightfall are both scum. I know this might seem scummy to you that I'm asking this, but you can at least tell Falcone where I'm coming from.[/quote]
...was in massive's Mini, where I was defending him and he turned out to be scum. You're right Commodore, I do find it scummy.

I may be being a sap [yet again] but I don't see the scumminess in ...

[Mr Stoofer]

I do see it!!!!!

I was just about to paste Commodore's post - this one:

vote: Nightfall. I'd vote for mikeburnfire since getting rid of the mafia roleblocker is better, but I know that the vig and the masons might want to keep mikeburnfire around on the off chance that he's town and that he'll save us if we're wrong about Nightfall.

and say how I didn't get why it was scummy, when I finally got it. I think there are actually 2 points. First is the very basic one that if Nightfall turned out to be innocent then there is no way that the committee would want to keep mikeburnfire alive. Secondly, I did the math. The basic assmption is that the lynching commitee are all pro-town. Then, if Nightfall and mikeburnfire are also pro-town - which is a the basis for this comment - then Commodore must be scum. Sorry I was being so dense.

BTW, I don't buy Commodore's "from the committee's perspective" argument. No one ever proposed a plan which assumed that they were scum.

Do you guys still want me to vote for mikeburnfire?

[Mr Stoofer]

The above post was typed immediately after my previous post, before I saw mike and Seol's recent posts.

[Mr Stoofer]

I agree. Lynching mike is the way forward, vigging NF if he turns out innocent, CA if he's scum.

This also gives us the best chances for tomorrow. If Stewie has to kill tonight, he'll be conifirmed, but the scum are more likely to kill NF (unless they *know* he's naive for example) since Stewie will no longer be able to kill.

Forget my last question.

Vote: mikeburnfire

[Mr Stoofer]

Well played everyone, especially the scum.

This was a really great game, gor which thanks to everyone, especially vikingfan.

FWIW, I have to agree that the pro-town masons' role PMs should have been a little more ambiguously worded. This is mafia, so you can't trust anything anyone (eve the Mod) says. But still...

Thanks again and I hope to play with you all again soon.

[Mr Stoofer]

I'm surprised Stoofer and I were the only ones who thought they were working together. Stoofer! I needed you to have my back! Where were you?

Oh don't say that Commodore, I feel guilty enough!

And as you well know, the last time I got your back (Astuto-Umore Mafia) you turned out to be scum! So when you appealed to me in this game, I got terrible flashbacks.