Mini Normal 1133 - Mafia in Venice

[Klazam]

/Confirmage

[Klazam]

Sup. I'm a miller. Looked everywhere, and it seems that it's best for me to claim right away.

So you know.

vote AGar

for no reason at all

[Klazam]

Here are some standard questions I like to ask:
1) What is your time zone? This is good to know in case we have some oversees players and we're waiting for a post from them.
2) What is your mafia experience here and elsewhere? I like to know the experience levels from players, just in case there are any first timers mostly.
3) How often can we expect a post from you? Just for my personal reference, mostly.

1) eastern US
2) around 6 games here, and a few IRL.
3) maybe once/twice a day. More is possible. Depends on what is happening.

[Klazam]

I'll post tonight. Was incredibly busy last couple of days, sorry.

[Klazam]

What do you not believe? That I'll post tonight or my busy-ness?

[Klazam]

Posting what? Short posts. The other game I was posting in, I was just following the cop. (the game's over) any idiot can do that without much focus.

Not the type of post I know I'll need to make to catch up in this game.

I showed up because I finally have some free time and focus to give to this game.

[Klazam]

Because I'm on a iPhone right now. I'll get to a computer tonight. Hence why I said I'll post tonight.

/end

[Klazam]

unvote

All right. I’m rereading. This is what I have to say:

Redcoyote has a really odd confirm post in #3

Agar is correct. That is how you should look at my millerclaim. Just use that as some information, and not a indicator of my scumminess. Townpoints for his very protown thinking.

A really fast wagon built up on EA. I would look for scum among these four (Exilion doesn’t count, he was first) on the wagon. (Agar, Fatso ,Moz, Plague)

I’m not liking Plague’s posts so far. Still in early game.

If I ask you to elaborate that doesn't mean that whatever you say has to be perfect and beyond criticism. Especially when what you say is this.

But, the result of this has been to make him very noticeable and keep everyone on their toes => town tell.

This is the old "acting suspicious is a town tell" argument. And it's not true. And I know of no way to come to this conclusion from a town perspective.

QFT.

Oh, Plague replaced out? OOKAY. Still feels scummy to me.

Moz’s many straight posts was unnecessary. More scummy is the contradictions between posts as pointed out by ICE.

Mae’s vote of me is a very justified vote. I like that vote more than how exilion voted me. It feels as though exilion is just riding the coattails of mae. Its my opinion that “pressure votes” aren’t worth a shit if the person being “pressured” said that he’ll post that night. If I did not post just now, and exilion voted me tomorrow, maybe that vote can be more justified, but as is, NOPE.

NE: Oh boy. My third vote. What makes me a better vote than Moz? Your reasoning was because of my absence. Ok. In the same post, you say that Moz is being scummy . Yeah, you did not directly call Moz scummy, you just say that you wouldn’t mind lynching him, which implies his scumminess, even if you’re not sure. You’re leaving yourself wriggle room here. WHY IS THAT?
/End reread

Ok. Out of all the players, I would say that Moz, NE, or spacepope is scum. Out of these, Moz and SP feel like too easy votes for me to make, so i'll wait on that, but I find NE scummier, due to the reasoning above, so I’ll

vote NEvil

.

[Klazam]

AGar- could you point out Moz's fencesitting? I dont see it.

Space Pope- Ok, you dont like NE's vote. Why dont you vote NE? What makes Budja a better candiate than NE?

Mae- Fair enough. If i wasnt a badposter, who would you like to vote? Could you signify that with one FOS next post?

[Klazam]

you're correct that Budja needs to post more. his V/LA ended yesterday, so no excuse for him.

[Klazam]

Exilion- point out where moz is fencesitting. I do not see it.

[Klazam]

Yes i am uncertain. Yes I am sitting on the fence. Anyone that is certain (perhaps you think it is being "confident" ) of someone being scum on day 1 is either a fool, or scum.
Get to grips with this fairly simple concept: people have different styles.

And to answer Maemuki (think thats his name?) I can't remember why I voted you. I think you had OMGUSed someone.

UNVOTE

*PUTS EXTRA PADDED CUSHION ON FENCE, SITS ON IT*

This is where moz says he is fencesitting. Not where he is fencesitting.

You're using craplogic twice to justify voting for people. And note you are not the first to vote, you're the second to vote on both votes. Scum?

[Klazam]

Moz’s many straight posts was unnecessary. More scummy is the contradictions between posts as pointed out by ICE.

AGar- could you point out Moz's fencesitting? I dont see it.

Exilion- point out where moz is fencesitting. I do not see it.

Which is it?

I see contradictions, not fencesitting. Fencesitting is when you say X is scum, but X could be town too. Contradiction is when you say X is scum in one post and then you say X is town in the next.

And I just found that exilion was using craplogic for his vote. I believe that my question was a good question to ask now.

NE: Oh boy. My third vote. What makes me a better vote than Moz? Your reasoning was because of my absence. Ok. In the same post, you say that Moz is being scummy . Yeah, you did not directly call Moz scummy, you just say that you wouldn’t mind lynching him, which implies his scumminess, even if you’re not sure. You’re leaving yourself wriggle room here. WHY IS THAT?
/End reread

He could be scum. His style makes him hard to read. Like I said, I can't really get a good idea of what he is thinking. I'm not totally convinced that he is scum, but he is scummy enough that he would be a good lynch today, a much better lynch than, say, Budja. He would be a compromise lynch for me.

So Moz is lynchable for being hard to read? You did not answer my original question too. What makes me a better vote than Moz?

Ok. Out of all the players, I would say that Moz, NE, or spacepope is scum. Out of these,

Moz and SP feel like too easy votes for me to make

, so i'll wait on that, but I find NE scummier, due to the reasoning above, so I’ll

vote NEvil

.

What exactly makes voting for the two others "too easy" and why does it matter?

It feels as though they could very well be just bad players. I'm holding off on them but i'm slightly more sure about you.

I don't like NE's recent vote. Voting someone for not posting, when they say they will by x and x hasn't came yet. Seems like an opportunistic vote.

He floated through the whole game up to recently with nothing other than a miller claim. He didn't show up until people started talking about absence. It's likely that he is scum who was purposefully lurking.

I could have been lurking, or i could have been busy. I say that i'm busy. There is no way for you to know either way. Not a valid reason for a vote, i believe.

[Klazam]

Contradiction and fencesitting are very much two different things. Where is the similarity in concept or application?

This.


I now understand your stance on Moz. I'll

unvote

, and

vote Exilion

.

Also, its not a difference of opinion- Exilion is clearly using craplogic. I say that, because when i asked exilion to point out where Moz was fencesitting, Exilion used Moz's own post saying that Moz was fencesitting as justification. I find that scummy.

[Klazam]

Ok. Out of all the players, I would say that Moz, NE, or spacepope is scum. Out of these,

Moz and SP feel like too easy votes for me to make

, so i'll wait on that, but I find NE scummier, due to the reasoning above, so I’ll

vote NEvil

.

What exactly makes voting for the two others "too easy" and why does it matter?

It feels as though they could very well be just bad players. I'm holding off on them but i'm slightly more sure about you.

This was my reply.

[Klazam]

oops. quote error. It was me who said that, not NE

[Klazam]

They both played horribly, which makes me feel compelled to vote for them, but it does not feel right to me, hence why i said its a easy vote.

That's all i could really say on the subject.

[Klazam]

AGar- could you point out Moz's fencesitting? I dont see it.

Either you don't read or your an awful scumpartner to Moz.

1) Moz admitted it in the post RIGHT BEFORE YOURS
2) This post and this post (for the "could be true/could be scum trying to mess with us" <- NO SHIT) and this post.

There's a handful. All of them make sure to take 0 stances on any situations.

Thank you for pointing it out. I know that moz admitted it, but I wanted to have your proof. Now that you have proven that there are posts where moz was fencesitting, exilion still looks bad for his crappy justification.

[Klazam]

I'll respond fully to exilon tonight, but I just wanted to point out that it's stupid to take me spelling your name wrong to mean I'm not reading.

[Klazam]

unvote

Sorry Exilon. I was going to reply, but then I did a ISO on you. Apparently my reading is fail. You did have an actual reason to vote Moz, not none like I originally thought.

All righty.

I officially have no idea who the scum is. No clue where to start either.

And RE: the “easy vote” thing, I guess I used the wrong term then. I already explained what I meant. Is there anything else left that I can say? No. So I’ll just move on related to this issue. Take it any way you want to.

I’m looking over the Moz wagon right now to see where I stand on it. I’ll be back with as much analysis I can make.

Be back in 30 mins.

[Klazam]

Sleeping on it.

[Klazam]

L-1.

Claim.

Still not done with analysis.

[Klazam]

FACTS

:
First to vote Moz: ICEninja
Reason:

Alright mozamis, 14 posts in a row is NOT acceptable. Please combine your posts next time.

Yes, this is obviously OMGUS.

Actually, it is obviously not OMGUS. The original person to accuse him of OMGUS (Exilion) has conceded the point that it was NOT OMGUS.

But i fail to see why evryone is getting so worked up by EA. Yes, he is obviously trying to cover up his OMGus vote by BS argumunets, but probably just cos he knows he made a mistake.

This looks like either distancing or laying the seeds to later come back with a scum tell. Slightly scummy.

This vote seem completely unprovoked.
Slight scum read.

That was a random vote. In the RVS. And you're calling it a slight scum read? No good.

well if people want to talk about his miller claim, then we are free to do so. Why are you so dismissive of what seems quite an imporatant post?

You just said this regarding the miller claim:

Am ignoring this. Could be scum trying to mess with us. Could be true.

You're very all over the place, and seem to be trying to paint AGar as scummy for no reason. More scum points.

AGREE 100 PER CENT.

That was regarding me defending Erratus.

although exilon is keen to defend EA. Scumtell or just trying to be objective? Too early to tell.

This was the next post.

Yeah not liking mozamis.

Vote mozamis

.

Second: AGar
Reason:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: mozamis

You're not doing anything useful. You're simply posting garbage about people's attitudes, and last I heard, scum can be nice or assholes! So start doing something, because there's plenty for you to actually look into. You haven't laid down a real stance yet.

Third: Exilon
Reason:

UNVOTE: Klazam
VOTE: Moz
This is what happens when you sit on the fence. =)

(Along with previously expressed dislike of Moz, on post 156)

Fourth: Maemuki
Reason:

VOTE: Mozamis

Notice the fence-sitting (which some people have helpfully pointed out already), the lack of any opinions ever since he started to get noticed. Get here and get some damn stances in the game, we're not lynching anybody if the town is just sitting around doing god-knows-what, and we can't get information either. Scum-hunt or die.

[SNIP]

I'd much rather see moz do some scum-hunting, and he's not gonna do it without a little push.

Fifth: Shattered Viewpoint
Reason:

I have mostly caught up on the thread. I still need to iso a couple people and look at some interactions, but for now:

Vote: Mozamis

Scummy McScumPants is being very vague and scattershot. Straighten up and fly right, young man.

Sixth: RedCoyote
Reason:

Fucking IDIOTS. I DONT KNOW WHO IS SCUM YET. ANYONE WHO IS CERTAIN IS A DICKWAD OR SCUM.
USE YOUR FUCKING BRAINS.
Peace and love

Either a distressed town or a panicky scum. Either way, if this is his idea of moving forward in this game, then he's not going to be helpful to us regardless of his alignment.

Unvote

;

vote: mozamis

---------------------------------------------------------------

Analysis

: (In my own opinion)

ICE, AGar, Exilon, and Mae has the most protown reasoning/justification on their votes. I know this contradicts myself with my previous stance on Exi. I was wrong before. I now see the light.

The others is suspect- SV because he basically posts "Moz is scum for being vague and scattershot" and used that to vote Moz. I dont like this reasoning. RC's is equally bad to me because of the part where RC says that Moz's unhelpfulness makes him useless in this game, regardless of his alignment. I disagree. A townie is a townie is a townie. It does not matter what the posting is, if moz is a townie, he is useful by simple virtue of numerical advantage.

---------------------------------------------------------

I just thought it'd be a good idea to post this now, to benefit D2. I'll be revisiting this if we lynch Moz today.

---------------------------------------------------------
My read of Moz:

Wow. Hard to read.

A couple of questions for you, Moz:

1) Could you give me a list of the three people you suspect the most, and why?
2) If you were forced to vote one, which one would it be?

[Klazam]

I really disagree with lynching mozamis, I have a strong read of plain ol' confused town on him.

Instead we should lynch either pappums rat or Shattered Viewpoint. I am not exaggerating when I say that mozamis has done more scumhunting than every player in those two slots

combined

.

I'm inclined to agree with this post.

[Klazam]

L-1 always = claim, correct?

Also, Moz could you answer my questions? It's at the end of the giant post I made.

[Klazam]

Hmm.

(new-ish player question) but if a person is at l-1, isnt it better to claim, in order to avoid losing any potentially useful powers?

[Klazam]

exilon, that post you quoted above was made AFTER you voted for me. You voted for me "thats what happens when you sit on the fence".
Then in your next post you obviously thought you needed to justify it a bit more.
So dont try and twist what has happened. You voted for me because of fence sitting, and then post hoc, you justified it.
Please try and be more honest in your posting.

Also look at post 156. (how do I link?)

It has exilion's justification.

[Klazam]

Ah. I see. Sorry.

I have no intent to hammer Moz. I am still not sure on whom the scum is.


Pedit- it was me who asked for the how to link- thanks.

[Klazam]

Looks like it to me. I do not think it was the right time to hammer. We could still have gotten content from Moz.

[Klazam]

Who Moz's scumreads was (AN ANSWER TO MY QUESTION)

[Klazam]

any last words?

[Klazam]

Could I have an alarm call, please?

[Klazam]

Hmm. Interesting.

Ill be back soon.

[Klazam]

There are 11 players here now. A scum died during the night. This means either there another killing role out there, or it’s a serial killer (or a redirector, but I’m discounting this because it means we pretty much already won here)

I do not know if it’s a good idea (due to my relative inexperience) but I think we could ask the vig to claim. If theres a claim, we know that there is only one scum left in the game. If not, we can safely infer a serial killer here, I believe.

Now, on to my suspicion: I ISO’d everyone. They all come off as feeling town to me, except for Ythan. Why? Because of his relation with Moz- He did not take a hard stance on the matter. It felt as though he pointed out minor scummy things from Moz and was not trying to do much of questioning or anything of Moz whatsoever. Ythan also subtly defended Moz, when he inexplicably joined into my discussion with exilion. I personally think that the semantics that I was using was very stupid now. I’m curious why he joined in. Also of note is this post. It doesn’t sit right with me.

We've got a good 5 or so days before we should start thinking about forcing a claim, so give me some time to solidify my reads on players other than moz (who I have spent extra time on) before we put him at L-1.

The point is not to put off claims as long as possible. The whole point of a claim is to determine if we don't want to lynch the player

and find someone else in the remaining time.

I believe that Ythan is the third scum here.

vote Ythan

[Klazam]

Space Pope- Why is my name not on your scumlist? I said nothing about BudjaSlot whatsover. Did you miss me or was i just not considered?

[Klazam]

The reason why i unvoted exilion is because my case was based on this post:

Ok, I have little time today as well. Not much to point out, though. Thanks, Klazam, although I was expecting a bit more of analysis on the first pages of the game.

UNVOTE: Klazam
VOTE: Moz
This is what happens when you sit on the fence. =)

When i ISOd Exilion, I found that he actually had already made his case on Moz. I thought that the post above was his first mention of anything related to Moz. It was not, ergo why my case was extremely stupid. A honest misunderstanding on my part.

Lynch me if you wish. I just want to point you all in Ythan's direction.

[Klazam]

I dont really care if i live or die, as long as we win. I believe that Ythan is scum, so i ask you all to look closely at him.

No objections to massclaim, personally.

[Klazam]

EA: what's your rationale for wanting to lynch me?

Who should start off the massclaim? Popcorn style?

I'm willing to start, if a couple more people are willing to claim.

[Klazam]

argh. You're right EA. Was thinking i was a VT. Thanks. A miller is basically a VT in terms of usefulness, though.

In that case, since i'm already claimed, who should go next?

[Klazam]

(off topic) in retrospect, a miller is supposed to look scummy, and here i am looking scummy. Just cant miss the irony in that. -.-

[Klazam]

EA- I can assure you that i'm NOT scum.

Seriously, have anybody even looked over Ythan's posts?

[Klazam]

*FACEPALM*


Just look, and see how Ythan avoided having a definite stance on the Moz wagon. Do you not find that scummy?

Lynch me if you must, but at least LOOK.

[Klazam]

I was against it. That was my stance.

[Klazam]

Define "political tactic" please.

[Klazam]

This IS a mislynch.

I'm a miller. I may have forgotten it, yes, but the fact is: being a miller is pretty much the same to being a VT for my purposes. It isnt important to me, so naturally i forgot.

This may be my last post, so i implore you all, during the night, reread Ythan, and also take a look at RedCoyote. these are the two players i'm the most uncomfortable about. I believe Ythan is a scummate of Moz.

Feel free to hammer me. It looks like there isnt anything much to discuss left.

(I wont self-hammer, because it'll be like hammering a confirmed townie to me.)

[Klazam]

Also, I would like RC to define what he means by political tactic. This phrase strikes me as being said oddly.

[Klazam]

And this will be quite a quick lynch. most players havent even posted.

[Klazam]

And this will be quite a quick lynch. most players havent even posted.

For all my gusto of being pretty sure you're scum, it is in town's best interest to not lynch you quite yet. Everyone needs to comment first.

This IS a mislynch.

I'd say the same thing if I was on the chopping block - as virtually any role. It's a fairly loaded statement.

I know. Still doesn't stop me from saying it.

Any way i can make myself useful while waiting for the hangman to come?

[Klazam]

I'm going for now. See you all in the afternoon, assuming i havent been hung yet.

[Klazam]

Hey all.

I just realized something. ICEninja said that a hammer should not happen soon, but he placed the L-1 vote, Which seems like he is inviting a hammer to happen. Hmm?

Set-up speculation: I'm sure theres a cop since I'm a miller. There is either a vig or a sk, because of the second mafia death. There's also a doctor or a jailkeeper due to no town deaths. I'm assuming 3 mafia, because that's the norm. I believe that it's a vig who killed pappum rat, because he looked quite scummy with that hammer of his, which makes him a perfect vigkill. If it was a SK, i think a more protown player would have died.

Anything I can do to contribute to the town? I can read players, give my opinions, analyze votes, make poetry, whatever.

[Klazam]

Assuming I'm town, what would the best thing i can do for you all before I'm lynched? I recognize that my lynch is pretty much unavoidable, but i want the town to win, so what can i do to help this happen?

[Klazam]

Not scum, so not self-hammering.

I'll get to work on that case.

Thoughts on my wagon- I'm not sure why Space Pope is defending me. Also, Shattered's support of my lynch is amazingly weak.

Quick question- Do i also post my town reads or do i keep that under wraps?

[Klazam]

I believe that AGar is town based on the way he responded to my miller claim. Mostly my intuition. His posting in this game does nothing to make me believe that he is scum too.

[Klazam]

Nevermind. I changed my mind. I dont think Ythan is scum. My case with himn was based on the premise he refused to take stances with Moz's lynch. When i looked over his posts, i found that he attacked penpen/budja/Rat, who was scum. In that case, his not taking a stance on Moz is not a scumtell, because he did take a stance on Pen/Bud/rat.

Second suspect: RedCoyote. Reading over him now.

[Klazam]

Here’s my analysis of RC.

I'm confirming that I understand my role and win condition.

I find this a very odd way to confirm. RC, can you point to a game you have played where you was town and had the same type of confirmation?

[SNIP]

I really don't like the wagon on Erratus at all. I feel like AGar is the only person who is even remotely justified in their vote on him. There is very probably scum somewhere on the wagon of people with weak votes on him.

I get the same impression.

---

Sound familiar? I'm not distorting facts. You directly said you wanted to start a bandwagon. Or are you just distorting facts?

You're dodging the point though. EA has been the first voter, so your accusations that he is looking for "quick-wagons" is unwarranted.

---

That is a FACT. It is normal for townies to have two FoS's out. That is a FACT.

Your blowing this issue out of proportion multiple times looks desperate.

[SNIP]

In this post, when taken in context, RC parrots others’ words.

[SNIP]

I understood what he said about EA and I can definitely see that coming from a town player. I don't want to go into too much detail about it because I don't want to make his defense for him. I have an even read at the moment and I don't think leaving my vote on him will accomplish anything.

This is very town sounding, so much so that I felt the need to actually quote it and tell you that. Don't let me forget I said this, NE. I'm feeling pretty good about a lot of people so far. ICE, AGar, EA, NE, Ythan, Mae, and Exilon all seem like they're on the up and up.

plague (Space Pope) is still the best wagon around right now.

I wouldn't criticize the moz wagon either. Mae is right to pressure Klazam a bit. These three players (and possibly Fatso) could all use attention right now.

Look at bolded. This is the last post RC makes about SP before he jumps off SP’s wagon, onto the mozamis wagon, at sixth with a weak reasoning (“he's not going to be helpful to us regardless of his alignment.”) I noticed that he totally dropped the SpacePope wagon, and forgot about it. Odd.

Vote: Klazam

Even if he is just a Miller, it's a good political tactic to just use a lynch on him now.

Assuming we have a Cop, coupled with the fact that there's probably a Vigilante out there, that should cover some 4 or 5 people by investigation, PR, or likely townie given the moz wagon. At that point the lynch will probably be narrowed down to some 4 people or so.

[SNIP]

Either a distressed town or a panicky scum. Either way, if this is his idea of moving forward in this game, then

he's not going to be helpful to us regardless of his alignment.

Unvote

;

vote: mozamis

See the similiarity? Regardless of alignment, hes happy to lynch both of us. Sounds like he’s playing it safe. (The reason why I say this applies even if Moz was RC’s scumbuddy, because there was always the chance a lynch could not happen. If Moz turns out to be scum, great, RC had a vote(GoodBus), if the lynch died or became much weaker, or if someone else looks worse, RC can yank his vote, claiming that he never believed in that lynch.)

unvote, vote RC

I feel more sure that RC is scum.

[Klazam]

Ythan-read post 368

[Klazam]

Keep RC in mind for D3.

I'm actually a miller.

[Klazam]

I know this time. I'm already hammered, so any questions you want to ask me?

[Klazam]

*blink*

[Klazam]

Why so?

[Klazam]

Dammit.