[Mini 1205] Tough Guy Mafia - Game Over!

[ConfidAnon]

/confirm

[ConfidAnon]

VOTE: Horrifying Hero

He's . . . well . . . horrifying.

*hides*

[ConfidAnon]

1. Mafia and Town require different styles of play. Each is different. I'd say that Town is more challenging, based solely on the fact that even if you get lynched as Mafia, there's potential for your team to benefit from your death, whereas a townie lynch tends to get the wrong people suspected.

Mafia requires a more nuanced social game, while Town requires a lot more brainpower and reasoning skills. So it depends on what kind of a mood I'm in if I would prefer either one.

2. Maybe if I find a scummy lake, I can skim the top with a net to catch some scum.

In all seriousness, just trying to look at the thread in an objective manner, look at what sticks out, and see if that is a key to a scumbag or not.

The Miller claim is completely null. I've been in situations with all kinds of Miller claims, so I'm going to ignore it and look for other things right now.

Like this:

Scum, I've been town every game on this account, it's getting fustrating.
By lining us up in a suspect line and getting an old lady to pick.

The first line seems a little off. It smells slightly like an off-handed comment to make us feel like simo is town using slight AtE. It's not a lynch-worthy case at this point, but it's a better than random vote.

Also, you'd seriously trust an old lady? Her eyesight is probably terrible!

UNVOTE: Horrible Hero
VOTE: el simo

[ConfidAnon]

And what purpose would this specific AtE serve me, as hypothetical scum?

Trying to plant the idea of simo town in everyone's heads.

Firstly, the point he uses against el simo seems really weak/invalid. I don't see how saying he's been town in all of his other games is meant to imply he's town this game. Secondly, there's no reason for him to add the phrase "It's not a lynch-worthy case at this point, but better than an RV." unless he's scum giving himself room to backpedal. Finally, he adds a jokey reason to his vote despite already having a serious reason. The vote feels off.

He didn't say "all my other games." He said "every game." Which could be a subtle attempt to reinforce that he's town in this game.

Like I said earlier though, it's not the strongest case but it's better than a random vote. How on earth is that phrase scummy? That's not giving myself room to backpedal - it's clarifying that some votes have more weight behind them than others. If I advocate a lynch at any point in the game, I'll clearly state that. If I don't, I won't (barring looking for reactions and that sort of thing).

And how is joking scummy? It was just that . . . a joke. Since when are jokes a scumtell?

[ConfidAnon]

If you were a townie in his position, how would you have phrased his question?

Probably in a similar way, if I had the same level of experience. This is a good point.

Before I elaborate on and defend my point against you, can you please explain what the purpose of your vote for el simo was, originally?

A more-serious-than-RVS vote to start discussion and see how people react when the game warms up a bit, but not to start a lynch crusade against el simo.

Nice misrep. I never said that joking was a scumtell. Did you actually think I was saying that? LobsterCatapult explained this point pretty well and I can't think of a better way to elaborate on it, so I'll just quote it for you since you ignored it anyway:

Not ignoring Lobster - your points are very similar. Sorry that I didn't mention you by name, Lobster, but when I was responding to wicked I felt that that would apply to Lobster to. Next time I'll quote each post, even if they are very similar statemetns.

Anyways, I assumed that the line between a joke meant as light-hearted banter and actual gameplay-related statements was very clear. Because I assumed that you'd notice that, and your point doesn't make sense to me if you know that that line isn't meant as part of any reasoning, the only option left was that you found joking scummy.

If you want to play subtly, I also said "I've" - that being, past tense - not refering to present time and this game.

Touche.

@confidon: joking is not a scumtell, the way you joked i find scummy. you make a serious vote on el simo, but then tried to play it off as, well a weak vote, so that if we pressure to follow up on it, and why you find el simo scummy, you can easily just say exactly what you just said, that it wasn't that serious, when your reasonings behind it seem so. i see scum undercut their reasons for voting much more so than town.

I see what you're saying. Can't argue against it, because intent is impossible to prove here. But if adding snarky remarks to any post containing gameplay content makes me scummy, then I'm playing the wrong game, because I would be lynched every time (even though I've never been lynched for this before. )

[ConfidAnon]

[qoute="HezLucky"]2) I'm reading what you are saying and I feel that, given your situation (people are voting you for something stupid like your playstyle), I feel that you really should be showing more frustration than you are. Lack of townie frustration IS a scumtell.[/quote]

Fuck it.

I rewrote each section of that post, pretty much, because I AM FRUSTRATED. But you know what? I can guarantee that if I would have left it the other way, everyone would have cried AtE and voted me anyway. So fuck, I'm done. I'll just ignore posts related to voting me for now on, and focus on everything else. (This plan probably won't work for me, but I can at least try, right?)

This game . . . fadjks;vmkldz,x.zcx,vja;fkgjraeiogj;f

[ConfidAnon]

Who do you think is mafia so far?

It's still early in the game, but right now my top suspect is probably Horrifying Hero.

UNVOTE: el simo
VOTE: Horrifying Hero

He hasn't posted much (only twice, if I recall) . . . but they seem like they are just trying to stay out of the way of the game, while being there to make HH appear active. I know this hydra account is controlled by two experienced players, so it's weird that they haven't added anything to the discussion.

And since I feel like someone's going to ask about this, this vote is more serious than the el simo vote.

Just this post in general, which has already been commented on, is deserving of pressure in some form. First of all; I won't even get into the 'rvs' vote. Second; If CA's point was valid and he would've done the same thing, why did he choose to do a random vote over a vote on El Simo, who he felt had a valid point against him? Third; How is it pro-town to ever ignore a post? No matter how small?

These are good points.

FoS: avasthearties

I don't see anything either way for tars.

[ConfidAnon]

Not gonna lie - I expected the fake claim. I've been in a game where it's been done before.

I'm curious to see your reads and reasons behind your reads. A gambit is meaningless without gained information to back it up.

If we're going off gut reads, I can attest that something seems off about Wicked. I get kind of the vibe that he's trying to hard to look town or something, but I can't put real logic behind it at the moment.

HH isn't off the hook yet until he turns that claim into something usable - but this is more voteworthy.

UNVOTE: Horrifying Hero
VOTE: YankCane151

You didn't mention any suspicion of Wicked until HH came clean about the fakeness of his claim, and said that Wicked was scum. While there aren't any votes on the table yet, this sounds like setting yourself up to blatantly bandwagon off of HH's case.

I also notice that besides your random vote at the beginning of the game for Kid Know Nothing, you have not made a serious vote as of yet. It also happens that Horrifying Hero called for the wagon on Kid Know Nothing to disband. Your lack of votes, plus your newfound sheeping on Horrifying Hero, reads like confused scum not finding a good place for a vote, so your just going for whatever an experienced player says. After all, he had a GAMBIT. He must know what's going on! (sarcasm) By letting Horrifying Hero direct your vote, you could be trying to evade HH's eye by staying out of his way.

[ConfidAnon]

Hmm.... I like ConfidAnon's points against YankCane. ConfidAnon, what do you think of tarsonisocelot after reading my points against him?

It's a good line of thought - however, I like my vote on YankCane better right now. tarsonisocelot is a good person to keep an eye on because of the things you mentioned (if this were on, say, page 12 it would be an even stronger point), but like I said, I like my Yank vote for now.

However, I would give it a strong

FoS: tarsonisocelot

tars - according to you, who's scum?

[ConfidAnon]

Yank - questioning =/= expressing suspicion.

Besides, your questions were only in response to his questions.

[ConfidAnon]

I'm not sure how differently mafia whining about being wagoned for playstyle and townie frustration over being wagoned for playstyle are supposed to present. Could you clarify the differences between them (preferably but not necessarily with reference to this game)?

Do you know the difference between whining and being frustrated? One has a hint of anger towards it, and it's not the former.

Why would scum whine but not be frustrated if caught for something they feel is not a scumtell?

tars - who is scum?

[ConfidAnon]

There was a Dizzle in this game? Whoa.

[ConfidAnon]

Questioning is how I scumhunt (see that post in the RQS), so to me it is. I don't find the need to go all out and say "So and so is scum!" right away because 1 I assume it's assumed I suspect them by questioning them and 2 because who cares if someone says I'm not suspecting someone? The fact that the questions were after his questions does not make them magically not valid, unless we want to play that way in which we should just throw out half of the posts of the last 3 pages or so.

None of this changes the validity of my original point.

Like give me a paragraph on why someone in this game is mafia. In their next post. Or suffer wrath.

I've been stating my views already - no need to repeat them.

Random note: I thought that I would hate your gimmick, rainbowdash, but its growing on me. xD

I have no clue what you think of HH and the fakeclaim (which was AMAZINGLY stupid, I would expect play like that from Mastin but not Lat).

Why was it amazingly stupid? I don't approve or disapprove of it, to be honest, and I do think we're due an explanation of the reads he's gotten from it very soon, but I don't see why the move itself is stupid.

I know the following quote is older, but I just figured out why I didn't like it when I saw Hez quoting it again:

Hez, You were after Anon until he finally agreed with you on something. I believe you're letting him direct your vote.

This really makes no sense at all. Why would you let your suspect direct your vote? Also, if we agreed, then I'm not really directing his vote, am I? After all, we had to both have been thinking the same thing to agree.

I notice that this came after I accused you of letting Horrifying Hero direct your vote . . . honestly, I think that's why you made this incoherent statement. You saw Hez vote for you, and you felt threatened, so you tried to dig up a case on him. The "case" that you've made is pretty incoherent - a lot of your points seem to revolve around him "trying to seem Town." To me at least, those seem to be part of his general mannerisms and personality, rather than a concentrated effort to create a certain persona. (I know that it could be argued that he's doing so extraordinarily well because he has me deceived, but it's very difficult to not sound fake while attempting that, and I don't read any fakeness from his attitude at all).

Thing is though - you've put a lot of effort into this really bad case. You've made me a little less certain with my vote - I'm not sure if this is a Town misguided effort, or scum just trying to debunk my point about you and Horrifying Hero. I need to think about this one.

On the other hand, HezLucky's response post here gives me massive Town points. Getting hung up on the fact that bad case =/= scummy is a major Town tell, and the tunnel vision feel of the post also reflects well on his intentions.

Who should I vote?

Please tell me this is a joke.

Also, the longer it takes Horrifying Hero to post this case on Wicked, the more suspect Horrifying Hero becomes. To be frank, it's time to put up or shut up. Your posts promising a wall are stalling for time, and its coming across as kinda scummy.

[ConfidAnon]

1) Right, your original point was that I was letting HH direct my vote. Point to me where HH Is voting Hez, again? Point to me where I voted Wicked again?

Chainsaw defense time folks!

2) First, that was a snarky reaction to the fallacy behind HH directing my vote. It's just as easy for me to say the same thing about you and Hez. Of course in this case, it is absolutely true, (he's even said such), Hez DID agree with his suspect and then voted me. There's no need to defend him for something he didn't even do. Oh, unless you're talking about agreeing on votes, or reads, which, hmm, what did I do as to HH's read on Wicked? Agreed that my gut was also off regarding Wicked. Which is it, Anon? Am I guilty for agreeing with someone else (Like Hez did with you but you find that pro-town), or am I guilty for letting HH direct my vote (which Hez did with you but you find that pro-town). If you're being special because he's agreeing with you, then that's asinine because HH and I aren't even talking about you or Hez, we're talking about Hez (Unless the team is Anon-Wicked-Hez? )

Basically, that first line regarding my post is not a good point in any way because, gasp, it's a contradiction. (Scumtell for the folks at home who aren't following)

3) Jeez, this seems familiar, someone taking my words and stretching them then accusing me of stretching my own words. Who does that remind us of? (Hint: HezLucky). Either you're secretly the same person or you're buddies. Let's strikethrough all the false assumptions again! Like Hez, you are also calling this a horrid case(without addressing it or even seemingly reading it.) and that no one should consider it. Always a good thing to convince people that you're right and I'm wrong.

4)I'm scum trying to debunk you about HH? What in the world does that have to do with my case again Hez? Again, you're not reading my Case. It has nothing to do with HH at all, it has to do with Hez's contradictory vote, bandwagon, bussing of you (that's now relevant with this post), etc.

5)Why does his response give you major town points? Did you not read the contradictions I again pointed out the post after his? Read it again if so. Be more open than tunnelheaded. Hez isn't confirmed town so stop treating him like such. I'm not confirmed scum so stop treating ME as such. Which is what you're doing. Hez's whole case seems to me like opportunistic scum trying to pounce on a newer player's mistake, but at least, if you're town, be more open minded and don't team up with Hez for the heck of it. Really, tell me WHY Hez is town, not just that he "is."

This is crap.

I'll outline why, but only by request of a player other than Yank. I don't want to get dragged into an argument similar to what Hez and Yank are in right now. They unneccessarily clutter the thread, and nine times out of ten result in just repetition of the same points against each other.

-------------------------

For the same reason, here's a bit more controversy for you: I'm not going to read the Hez/Yank argument any more. Pointless thread clutter that won't get anywhere. I know from experience - I was in a game where I took part in one of these arguments with DeathRowKitty. I was Town, he was Mafia, but our argument did absolutely nothing towards getting either one of us lynched. (Of course, I screwed up the game by overreacting to a fake Cop when I was the real Cop later on in Day 1, getting myself night killed, but that's besides the point.)

It's abundantly clear where you both stand, and you've made about two pages of posts over the course of a few hours. If you continue, it's only going to hurt the game by making it more unreadable for future potential replacements, rereads, etc.

You and Anon have both said "I'm frustrated, I won't read your posts" this game.

Oops. Sorry that I repeated myself.

I'm keeping my vote on Yank right now. He's my strongest scumread at this point, however, the game does need to be turned towards other people.

We haven't heard much lately from Kid Know Nothing, tarsonisocelot, Horrifying Hero, and el simo. What do you think about current developments?

And Horrifying Hero, why is wicked scum? I can and will vote you if you keep failing to provide this case.

[ConfidAnon]

rainbow, I'll join you on the tarsonisocelot wagon after reading iso. Also, she'll be due for a prod soon, so this should be getting her back and posting regularly.

UNVOTE: YankCane151
VOTE: tarsonisocelot

Keep in mind, the Lat half of us is quite busy at the moment. The Mastin half of us has a lot more to bring to the table, including his belief for the whole scumteam (being, Wicked, Yonzy/Vifam, and Rainbowdash), but is preoccupied with his Birthday Party and it's a bad idea to multitask with such a large distraction.

I look forward to this. Sorry, but the first part did nothing for me. I'm waiting to totally dismiss it until I see this other catchup post. (Also, I'm pretty sure if you replace "Birthday Party" with "alcohol" the statement would also be truthful. xD)

I was hoping for a more indepth look at the specific reactions to the claim from HH. The points lat made regarding Wicked make my original gutread feel a little better.

What do you mean by "feel a little better?" Does that mean easing your suspicions, or confirming them?

CA, Am I still your top suspect? Who else looks guilty? Who are your non-Hez town reads?

You're still my top scumread, however, I'm branching off in other areas. There are people who need to be investigated - players like tarsonisocelot, for instance. Right now with tarson, I'm unclear on a couple of things (I'll explain why later, so as not to give her an idea of what would make me think she is town), and I want to see how she acts. I'm hesitant to label someone as a town read - when I do so, I tend to always think that and not question those who give me one. This has bit me in the ass a lot offsite. Right now, rainbow is fairly townie, maybe for his/her treatment of your argument. Rainbow seems to care about shit getting done in this game - however, given other alignment flips, that view could change really easily.

[ConfidAnon]

Tars - nothing changed except my mind on what was most valuable for today. He was still refusing to stop tunneling Hez and pushing what really looked like a bad lynch to me. That was antitown behavior and I thought it was time to give up the middle road and remove Yank from the game.

Funny thing is, I'm just as willing to jump on your wagon because we finally have some consensus going. Your misinterpretation of my motivations looks like scumpainting and deflection. "Oh people suspect me? Let me find the easiest target to deflect on." I'm always just that - an easy target. You can read through any of my games here and see that. I don't mind being the bait when I have certain roles because my wagon will inevitably have opportunistic scum on it.

UNVOTE: yank

VOTE: tars

And that wasn't a defense of you

This is the only scummy thing I've really seen from bobsnox. I don't quite see how he's the easy target, considering no one had made a case on him until tarsonisocelot made one herself. You're willing to jump on the wagon because there's a consensus about it? So if there wasn't a consensus (read - bandwagon), you wouldn't jump on it?

I agree that tarsonisocelot's case isn't good, and I agree that her play hasn't been above suspicion. But it seems like your voting her only for the bad case . . . which boils mainly down to OMGUS.

But this scummy post does not outweigh the scumminess from tarsonisocelot's previous play . . . hmmmm.

where's the Mastin part of the Wicked case?

[ConfidAnon]

ConfidAnon: Could you please make some specific criticisms of the case instead of saying it isn't good?

It delves more into the "voting antitown vs. scummy" argument. The vote seems more based on theory, not scumtells. Friend's post does a good job of highlighting this as well.

I think the first thing that got me sided with Yank was his response to the questions from Hez, which are near mirror images of what I think the "correct" ones are.

When he got attacked though, he firmly stood his ground and didn't give up what his beliefs were, despite the multiple lifelines that I was trying to throw him in order to stop the continual back and forth that was going on. Attacking Hez was probably about the hardest thing that Yank could have done in that situation, especially when I was opening the doors for a KKN wagon and he never even slightly bit on it. Almost every single one of his posts are worded in ways that do nothing to try and convince people to move off of him, and all set him up to have to spend a long period of time digging out of holes as he continued to attack Hez and CA, who were regarded for the most part as town, instead of going for anypony that may possibly be construed as an easy target. I mean, you saw me take almost ten pages of constant poking to get him to give up what was a complete dead end for him. I just dont see scum so unwilling to cooperate with me, and the only way I really can see Yank scum at this point is if its with someponies like Wicked/Vifam/KKN. Even then, its a bit of a stretch.

Alright . . . you've officially removed Yank from my lynch pool.

@EVERYONE: How much support is there for a wicked wagon? How about avast?

I currently would support the avast wagon moreso than the wicked wagon, but I wouldn't be opposed to either. I REALLY need to see HH's Wicked case (if I have time I'm going to look over the therad again for these two to get a better read myself), because not giving us this case is becoming pretty antitown.

[ConfidAnon]

I'll put him at L-1.

UNVOTE: tarsonisocelot
VOTE: wickedestjr

Note: Horrifying Hero, even if Wicked gets lynched, I want to see this wall.

[ConfidAnon]

UNVOTE: wickedestjr
VOTE: avasthearties

This is going to sound terribad, but the reason I voted you, wicked, was because you were a lynch that I didn't have a Town read on. I didn't have a scum read on you, per se, but with deadline as close as it is, I wanted to make sure this day didn't get wasted in a No Lynch. But your play the past couple of pages really has seemed Town, and your avast case is a lynch I'm willing to go with, especially this close to deadline.

[ConfidAnon]

Your mediation and social gameplay scream scum, yet I have no idea how scum can write something like the above.

The only thing I can think this is coming from is you're accusing rainbowdash of trying to appear protown through general mannerisms and behaviors, rather than gameplay. But this is your only point against . . . him? her? it? (Not sure, sorry xD). Which boils down to either it's protown behavior, or its fake protown behavior. 50/50. Do you have any reasons why this isn't genuine protown behavior, or are you just calling it fake with no basis?

507 is good.

is confidanon still playing this game?

I got kinda lazy. Sorry.

Rainbowdash, there are stronger points against avasthearties and IIRC, there are more people that are interested in his lynch, and the fact that he isn't a town powerrole means, at worst, we are losing a vanilla townie. It doesn't make much sense for us to risk having another player claim when there are so many benefits of lynching avasthearties right now.

This, from page 20, makes sense from a Cop already taking some heat.

Also - HH's wall feels like taking every post and interpretting it with WickedScum in mind - confirmation bias. The people who jumped on the wagon immediately after the wall make me feel better about Wicked Town, to be honest.

Under no circumstances should rainbowdash be lynched today. I got scumvibes from tarsonisocelot jumping on wicked due to the wall, and then hopping off immediately after the claim.

But for now,

Unvote, Vote: Vifam

I'd also be happy with a tarson lynch, but Vifam is a perfectly acceptable alternative.