[Mini 1205] Tough Guy Mafia - Game Over!

[Ethos]

Slax+Reg replacing in here. Catching up now.

[Ethos]

Alright, we've both read up on everything, well not everything, there's sections we both want to go back and read over becuase we were slightly unfocused and distracted whn reading through the game. The amount of obvtown vs obvtown arguing and voting throughout this game has been abysmal. Yank and Hez, I know you two clearly dislike the other persons playstyle but both of you are town and obvous at that so for the love of god no more arguging this game.

KKN, Yank, HH and Hez and El Simo are obvious town, Tarson is a considerably weaker town-read but a town read nonetheless. Neither of us are feeling motivated enough to go into detail about these reads right now however if you want a detailed explanation for any particular read just ask. Both of us agree that Wickeds claim and play has been frustrating and scummy although at the moment we think he's town via PoE because we're relatively certain that we've nailed the scum team.

The scum team are Lobster and Avasthe, there's so much god damn proof showing so as well including Friends soft distancing with Avsas when he replaced in. Avas's acknowledgement and arguing wth anyone else who FoS's her but her avoidance of doing so with Friend. The voting and bandwagonging that occured throughout the later half of day one and the fact that Lobster stated that she FoS'ed Avas and was happy hammering yet never voted her once throughout the entire day. The fact that Lobster came straight into today saying not lynching cop is the best bet but her quick change of mind when an illogical argument was put forward. There's also multiple individual scum-tells that each has dropped such as Avas decline of activity and play other than changing of votes at the later half of day one and Vifams interactions with Lobster stating that her posts were "off' but never voting her.

Honestly, just ISO the both of them, read their comments directed or about each other and their actual play in the game. Lobster voted just about everyone in the room with the exception of Vifam and Avasthe despite having them both as scum-reads at one point or another when a wagon was forming on them and Lobsters urging Vifam to come back when he was getting voted at the end of the day while voting Rainbow.

Heck, Mastin I know that you've got it stuck in your mind that Avas is town and that Wicked is scum but I really rather not have a repeat of Mini 1180, it's the very last thing I want to occur. So please for the love of god join us on either the Lobster or Avas lynch and have Wicked investigate one more time tonight. If somehow we're wrong on Lobster and Avas and they flip town (Which I'm close enough to guaranteeing that won't) then you can deal with Wicked tomorrow after he's outed his report.

vote avast

[Ethos]

In case the replacement means our vote didn't count we'll revote. Also note how he stated he was going to catch up but nothing posted since then, he's trying to lurk out the day until Wicked gets lynched.

Vote: Lewarcher

@Mod - Can you prod/explain what's happened to Yank, he hasn't posted in 10 days. Thanks.

[Ethos]

Hey mastin, slaxx here.

Regfan and I have never been more confident in a scumteam. We were literally posting the same incriminating links at the same time and cracking up about it because we were that sure and that lined up with our reads.

Wicked is null for us. I know cop+vig seems OP but for now we should really leave the cop claim alone. Honestly, the only reason the vig got shot before the cop is because the vig was suspicious of scum (otherwise, why kill the vig). Look who his vigpool was-the only remaining living and unconfirmed player is the guy we are voting.

Trust us Mastin. This is probably right. If you have a town read on our slot, sheep us ftw.

[Ethos]

Wicked is null for us. I know cop+vig seems OP but for now we should really leave the cop claim alone. Honestly, the only reason the vig got shot before the cop is because the vig was suspicious of scum (otherwise, why kill the vig). Look who his vigpool was-the only remaining living and unconfirmed player is the guy we are voting.

This is interesting.

But we are lynching Wicked today. End of story.

Why.

Why are you halting any further discussion. We brought up excellent points on two highly suspicious players. We are very confident of this lynch. I don't play this game. You convince me why I should switch over to Wicked. Don't dismiss points I just spent an hour talking over with "interesting...oh, lynch that guy"

LC's ISO literally

damns

her as scum. Same with avast. Take off your tunnel goggles. Sure, Wicked might be scum (though we are highly confident it is avast+LC with him as more of a wild card), but he is much more useful alive. And lynching outside of his claim works better today. If we lynch him and he flips cop, shit. If we lynch him and he flips scum, cool. Back to the thinking lab for Reg and I. However, if we lynch lewarcher today and he flips scum, he is obviously not scum with lewarcher/avast (look back at his iso). Last scum is forced to kill Wicked because he is cop+obvtown. Two for one. Scum gets lynched and a scummy player dies.

If you're not convinced, ask for a case. But don't just dismiss it with "lolthatguy dies" because thats very frustrating, especially in regards to how confident we are on this lynch.

[Ethos]

Our stong town-read on El Simo revolves around his attitude and actions throughout this game matching up perfectly with our previous town-meta on him furthermore his interactions with Vifam make him highly unlikely to be scum. Our town read on Tarson is much weaker for the sole reason that I found a few of her posts suspicious whereas I found others to be town motivated therefore the 'leaning town' read.

Yes, I'm saying that I believe the Wicked wagon is a bad one, that should be obvious when I said that Wicked shouldn't be lynched today so I'm struggling to see why you would even ask that question. I never said that 3/4 of the wagons at the end of yesterday were scum, nice work attempting to misrepresent what I said though. Interactions are a big part of the game, it's not just Vifams reactions and interactions with you, but yours wth him and with Avas slot. The fact that Avas just got replaced is completely meaningless and wishy washyness is a scum-tell so if you believe that Avas was wishy washy you would be perfectly fine and content to join us on their lynch.

You did state intenton to hammer Avas and you attempting to deny it makes it that much easier to prove you as mafia, so for that thank you. In Post #454 you state that you FoS Avas, that you believe her lynch wll get a lot of information and that she's a scummy bastard, then state then ask if she's at L-1 before voting Rainbowdash instead of Avas. Voting five out of the twelve people in the game is a lot, sure counting it up it's not majority but it's a significant number and considering the sheer number of people you voted the fact that your vote never landed on Avas or Vifam is highly revealing. I've taken a step back, relooked at my case and your refrainment from voting Vifam and Avas isn't wifom at all, heck it's not even near the defnition of wifom but nice attempt to decredit the case against you by throwing a catch-phrase like wifom out there.

There seriously needs to be more votes on Lobster or Avas.

[Ethos]

I'm here, and I'm reading.

Great. This just went from a town win to a town loss.

[Ethos]

El Simo, you played with one of our heads in Mini 1061 and the other one was actually spectating and following the entire game.

Lewarcher continues to prove that he replaced into a scum slot, his 'catch-up post' is nonsensical and doesn't involve any legitimate reads nor attempts at any. People need to get of the "LolWickedislynch" mindset and move their vote to join us, alternatively if they somehow are uncomfortable voting Lewarcher they can vote Lobster and we'll join them there.

[Ethos]

Mine, won't happen again and if possible you can delete the previous post.

Ethos, what would you describe the attitude of town-el simo as? And what actions has he done that match up with actions he did in Mini 1061?

Town Simo has a tendacy to spend time arguing semantics rather than fully focus on scumhunting, in Mini 1061 he got into a massive play style argument with Retrospective that created a great deal of noise, both of them were town. He started of this game in a similar pattern with his questioning of how AtE is considered to be a scum-tell and what scum motivation would be allocated with it when questioning Yank.

@ Tarson - What's your current thoughts on Lewarcher and Lobster, is there any particular reason you're refraining from voting either of them?

[Ethos]

you said that you think he is scum, and dont believe the claim, but didnt vote for him. i find that scummy.

Since we were so skeptical about wicked's claim yesterday, i'm now not really surprised he is still alive with scum hoping that wicked will be mislynched. HOWEVER, this is a really strange thing that neither the vig nor the "cop" were rbed, and the cop wasn't redirected. it was a big gamble for scum to make, however... im inclined to look into other candidates today as well. this isn't a 2 person scum team.

[Ethos]

Hez, let me address all your points and try to convince you why a Wicked lynch is bad. "A lot of people find Wicked Scummy" - Although I agree with that, more and more people are finding Lew scummy now too. If you give us time to properly pressure him I am confident we could convince more of the town. I'm not asking for a quick-lynch on anyone, I'm asking for everyone to re-examine the game. I am fairly confident if we have a few more back and forths with these two that your minds will be changed. Good things take time.

"Leave him alive one day and he fakes a guilty" - First of all, you are failing to address that if Avast flips scum then he will not live another day. If Avast flips town and Wicked gets a guilty, it will create CCs. Honestly, if avast flipped town, and wicked had a guilty the next day, I would probably be okay with lynching Wicked first just because him-scum with avast town makes a lot of sense. "His activity has dwindled" - If you look, he said he had been really busy the last few days and will be busy a few more on the 14th or 15th (Idk I was at work when I checked and I am too lazy to go back), this is not indicative of alignment.

"Left alive 3 days then he lolwins" - No, this isn't going to happen. We have too many town reads to keep him alive if Avast flips town. We would reread the thread again with avast town in mind, but I highly doubt anything would sway us from lynching anyone

but

Wicked. Now, onto why LC and Avast are the

better

lynches. LC's whole rebuttal to our post literally lacks any stance on Avast. In fact, it lacks any reads at all.

and im not convinced he is scum

, but with so many replacements in this game, being afraid this game would die, and his lynch would gain information,

and no i dont think he is that townie

eh. youre right, i was hoping to get some discussion out of today....but it looks like this is the only way today will be productive.
>_>....

unvote voute:wicked

LC is literally lynching a null read cop claim because she is afraid the game will die if she doesn't. Think about the risk reward benefit of that for a second. LC has a null read on a cop claim. Would you, Hez, as town, lynch a null read cop claim? If you aren't fairly confident he is scum wouldn't you be more hesitant to lynch him? But she happily hops on the wagon without attempting to call Wicked scum and if anything trying to gain herself town-cred for when he flips town.

I guess Yonzy is out now and in comes Vifam, who I think is making up for the dumbassery of his predecessor. Good reasonable defense provided for Yonzy's cluelessness. Time will tell how useful Vifam is, but I'd say currently he's about a 1 on a scale of -5 to 5 (with -5 being confirmed scum and 5 being confirmed town).

Vifam scumtold huge by distancing himself from his derp replacement. Its one of the most reliable tells I have found on my short time here. In the above post avast is supporting this distancing, hardcore.

[Ethos]

No, they aren't scum together is more or less what I am saying.

Its marginally possible they are both town, but it would be like you calling 2 of your top 3 FoSs town: its unlikely.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p3292945

This and a lot of Wicked's iso is why they arent scum together.

[Ethos]

No, they aren't scum together is more or less what I am saying.

Its marginally possible they are both town, but it would be like you calling 2 of your top 3 FoSs town: its unlikely.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p3292945

This and a lot of Wicked's iso is why they arent scum together.

On the contrary, this post is a great way for wicked to, you know, WIN THE GAME. Especially given that the above post came something like 100 posts BEFORE wicked actually claimed cop.

No...just...no.

Magua, catch up please.

[Ethos]

Hey, Slaxx.

Wanted to bring this up while I was on the subject of failures*:

The game didn't end when Wicked died.

*But didn't due to ongoing. It's not, anymore.

Gorilla flipped town.

We can play this game all day bro.

[Ethos]

Anyway, if that really all you have to say in response to everything that's going on maybe you should replace out or actually do something. Your choice.

[Ethos]

Magua, this replace in and copy my exact reads is starting to get a little lame and boring. You're meant to pretend to have terribad reads so I can scream and swear and insult your family just a little more.

Unvote, Vote: Lobster

[Ethos]

Ethos is cleared by Wicked, so is obviously godfather.

Hmmmm. So if we lynch the miller claim and they flip miller the odds that we're godfather increases, right?

[Ethos]

@ HH -

With a vig and cop in the same setup and no roleblocker the likelihood of inclusion of a godfather is very high therefore his innocents wouldn't be confirmed town or clear like you're attempting to make out. Further in the exact same post you quoted and mentioned he stated that his investigation of our along with our play thus far together make us his strongest town-read. This means that he hasn't 'forgotten' his investigation on us so to speak like you're attempting to make out. Further his disagreement with our read and reasoning behind our thoughts of El Simo isn't questioning of our alignment but asking for further clarification on the read which Slaxx will go into later.

Keep reaching and stretching though it's fun to observe.

[Ethos]

@Ethos- You said you were familiar with el simo's town meta. Does he normally change his mind so often?

When he gets out of his tunneling mentality, then yes.

I'm almost done with my analysis. But, atm, I think I might end up switching my vote to el simo.

*Headdesk*

We've told you the scumteam, provided a large dump of reasoning behind why they're both scum individually and interaction tells making them mafia together and with Vifam yet you are still content voting wrong.

[Ethos]

@ Fenix -

You're from epic mafia I assume? Welcome to mafiascum, here millers are alerted that they're a miller when the game starts, further HH's miller claim wasn't meant to ride out the game but rather to gain reactions, responses and pull the game out of the RVS stage. Also, if someones certainty in their scum-read is near 90-100% there's no reason not to vote with it, even if that player claims a role like cop. The only real role that I would consider unvoting when having a scum-read on them is Vig and Treestump so in a way I can understand HH's vote on Wicked although I don't agree with it.

What is your exact thoughts on Lobster at the moment and with the exception of HH who would you consider voting?

[Ethos]

@ Fenix -

If you don't mind, can you please reveal what your account at this site is? The problem with your stance that voting a PR claim is scummy is that you're openly stating that if mafia claim a PR you won't vote them until late in the game, this means that mafia are more inclined to fake claim PRs. In most cases people should be basing their vote of the persons play rather than their claim

(This is where Magua calls me a hypocrite and I call him a noob).

If you have a leaning-scum read on Lobster you should be voting her with us because at this point the only people likely to receive votes or get lynched is Lobster, El Simo (I don't know why) and Wicked, voting elsewhere would be pointless.

[Ethos]

@HezLucky -

Welcome to the light side. Given Fenix's attitude about Wicked in the previous few posts of his Fenix-scum means Wicked-town which means Lobster-scum is highly likely so join us over here today and we'll lynch Fenix tomorrow after Lobster flips scum. This games wrapped up.

[Ethos]

Probably a good time to state that Slaxx and I both believe that Wickeds avoidance of voting Lobster here and his vote on El Simo (The alternate leading wagon) makes Lobster + Wicked possible. So when Lobster flips scum lynch Fenix, if the game isn't over then lynch Wicked and it'll be game.

[Ethos]

Hrm thats not a slip actually.

Redirectors aren't in normal games, therefor there isnt one here, therefor that can't be a slip.

Who brought that up? I feel like i might have been Reg O_o

[Ethos]

@ Tarson -

If you're okay hammering or lynching Lobster is there any particular reason you haven't voted her already?

@ Wicked -

With deadline in less than four days these 'strong points' are going to need to be presented very soon and by very soon I mean today.

[Ethos]

@ El Simo -

I never thought I would say this but Hez actually does have a point. In #731 Fenix says he doesn't know what to make of the Wickeds claim, says he has suspicion towards Wicked but doesn't think it's best to pursue today however finds those pushing him suspicious. In #733 he states that voting a PR claim is suspicious. In #736 he says he doesn't believe Wickeds claim fully but again doesn't want him lynched.

Essentially he's being incredibly wish washy over his thoughts of Wickeds claim and his suspicions over those pushing Wickeds lynch and refrains from stating how we'll have a better read on Wicked tomorrow (Hint: Him living doesn't lead towards him being confirmed mafia).

[Ethos]

@ Fenix -

You're saying the following:

I suspect Wicked and don't fully believe his claim.
I don't want to lynch him today because my read on him isn't strong enough to guarantee that he's mafia.
I'm cautious around power roles and like to leave them till later.
I suspect the people that suspect Wicked and vote him.

[Ethos]

@ El Simo -

Hez's point was relatively obviously implied. Fenix replaced Lewarcher/Avas by the way. I'm finding this relatively hard to put into words but I'll give it one last go at explaining. I can understand Fenixs cautious style when it comes to lynching PR's (It's stupid and bad but it's understandable at the same time).

What I cannot understand is his suspicions of other players being less cautious when dealing with PR's if

he agrees with the scum-read on the PR and the points put forward against him.

[Ethos]

@ Wicked -

You're completely underplaying the linkages between Lobster, Fenix and Vifam while exaggerating Tarsons interaction with Vifam. Yes, I read it all and I still have a strong town-read on El Simo but I do have some hesitations in calling Tarson town now due to it.

You need to accept that at this point the lynch is essentially between you and Lobster. I'm not changing, don't think HH or Hez will change to follow you, Maguas not changing, Tarson and Simo won't self-vote so yeah, you're really not leading us anyway right now and I'm still waiting for my Lobster-scum flip. She's been promising content for a long time now and clearly given up knowing she's going to get lynched anyway.

[Ethos]

@ Magua -

You drive a hard deal bargain, though I'll tell you what, I am willing to negotiate and agree with Lobster dying today if Lobster dies today.

[Ethos]

Magua, throw in a complimentary lollipop or a key chain and you have yourself a deal sir. Also; I don't think HH is mafia, if it's not Fenix it's Wicked but it's Fenix.

[Ethos]

HEY HOW ABOUT YOU HAMMER

LC JUST CLAIMED SCUM DISTANCING FROM HER PARTNER

[Ethos]

Can't be. Ethos is the godfather. And as before, if Wicked investigates you, I will lynch him. I don't need another repeat of Cop-investigates-only-obvtown-just-in-case.

Slaxx is freaked out that I'm posting this but don't buss us yet, there's far too many MLs to dodge. Unless this is distancing then good work now can one of Wicked or Hez hammer Lobster-scum now please.

[Ethos]

Ethos is the godfather.

To clarify: is this a joke?

Apparently not.

Magua how did you find us out? Are you a town rolecop or gunsmith?

Fuck we were playing so well.

[Ethos]

Ethos is cleared by Wicked, so is obviously godfather.

And this is in full context. No explanation, no reasoning, just an unsupported assertion. I hope this isn't a serious statement. Or at the very least I hope you can back it up.

It seems Magua is trying to direct PRs, good point Fenix. I am seriously considering switching to Magua now.

[Ethos]

The only way Magua makes sense is being scum with el simo though.

Good game guys, its Mag+Simo.

[Ethos]

I'd like to ask you why your slot is voting el simo-town instead of Lobster Catapult-scum.

Because I haven't been 'active' enough.

This right here proves it.

We fucking won.

[Ethos]

Wow sarcastic caught scum is caught.

[Ethos]

Yeah, the last half a page or so was Slaxx trolling and joking around, he wanted to keep it up to see peoples reactions and to see if Fenix and Lobster would jump on Magua but at this point it's pointless.

Interaction and connection tells alone don't mean much but interaction tells with a dead mafia, with another player and individual scum tells combined mean a LOT.

[Ethos]

Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A lyncher win, 110 points for me!

[Ethos]

Hey. Mass claim time with only one scum left.

Wicked: Cop
Us: VT

Get this train rolling.

[Ethos]

How does Bodyguard work?

[Ethos]

I've seen bodyguard work in a fashion where it die as well as killing the attacker and I'm guessing that's the case here.

[Ethos]

Yeah, Mafia Hider

should

be able to kill like a goon. We think the only reason it is in the game is to avoid the night-kill from the vig thus isn't/wasn't used as a hider last night. The only thing that makes sense is BG killing and dying with it's attacker and if that's the case the mod should be able to confirm it.

Completing this mass-claim smoothly is optimal right now. Wicked out your report. Fenix, HH, Tarson, Krazy and Simo claim.

[Ethos]

No one is voting until mass-claim is over (Which needs to occur in the next day, at worst two). This games in the bag then.

[Ethos]

Vote: Fenix

I'm busy with other things but Slaxx will explain how Fenix just pretty much claimed mafia.

[Ethos]

I find it odd that HH would claim miller now of all times to claim miller.

Right now I don't know what to think about Wicked's claim, but it behooves us to keep him alive today on the off-chance we can get another couple investigations in. Oh, and HH's miller claim was retracted, so that doesn't imply a cop in the game. That and millers generally aren't told so in their role PM.

You KNEW that they had claimed and retracted so I'm failing to see how you could even consider them having claimed it recently.

[Ethos]

Too late champ you are now confirmed scum. Game over. Drinks on me.

-Slaxx

[Ethos]

Trying to guess what scum PR you are, because I bet there is more than one.

x-shot rolecop? Might be fitting...Always a good add. Hider defeats the purpose of roleblocker pretty well...Godfather with the current roles doesn't fit that well....Maybe a weak PR like mafia tracker/watcher.

Yeah something to sniff out a PR or two. You can just claim it now if you'd like.

P EDIT: Nah you're scum.

[Ethos]

Tunneling on town is distracting to town.

Tunneling on last scum (I am gonna guess mafia x-shot rolecop by your reaction) is highly beneficial.

[Ethos]

You already claimed scum xD

Its not a big deal, happens to the best of us.

[Ethos]

Huh? Why would scum be scared of Wicked if the town want to lynch him?

Fear of being checked and guiltied or having him clear scummy town players ect. Doesn't really matter though there's no chance that this setup just has a Vig+BG for town power meaning just by setup speculation (Which is very reliable in this case) Wicked is clear.

[Ethos]

Give Fenix time to outline dying FoSs then hammer.

[Ethos]

Yo sup Fenix

[Ethos]

This is the Wiki page for Bodyguard. However, I can't reveal the specifics of Magua's role.

From how this reads it doesn't seem like the BG is responsible for Hez's death meaning we're very likely dealing with a SK because I see no way that a Mafia Hider would die otherwise. This essentially means there's either a SK and a mafia remaining or just a SK. I'm still confident in it being Fenix-Scum but if the game doesn't end upon his lynch I'd suggest looking into Tarson for a potential SK. I strongly believe Simos town and have slightly similarish thoughts about Krazy, HH is a wild card.

[Ethos]

Bump for Fenix (aka scum)

[Ethos]

unvote, vote wicked

Fenix is town.

[Ethos]

Ethos, sorry, how does Fenix being town make wicked scum? I thought wicked was conf. cop? Who else did the bodyguard die defending?

Ignore Slaxx, he has a revolutionary playstyle that this world just isn't ready for.

He was taught how to troll by Scumhunter who was taught by Magua.

Unvote, Vote: Fenix

[Ethos]

jesus christ wicked you suspect two people, ones at L-1, one has no votes.

Which one should you be voting?

[Ethos]

Tarson-mafia, highly unlikely.

Tarson-SK, possible.

Inclusion of SK in the setup, possible but not guaranteed.

Likelihood of us lynching Tarson today, impossible.

[Ethos]

Hammer guys.

I'm srs.

[Ethos]

I actually think the setup was balanced. BG is generally a very weak role and vig can often be more of a hindrance to the town than a benefit plus the addition of a hider makes the vig less effective. The game was well run considering the number of replacements needed as well.