Mini 1219 - Bedtime Stories Mafia - Game Over!
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Banshee Goon
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I've read this game (though only once) and I agree with this lynch, so I'm fine with ending the day and posting my thoughts in a more comprehensive form when morning comes.Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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No, I'm going in a different direction altogether, if that wasn't the hammer. I've had more time to read and think and I'm pretty confident in this vote.
UNVOTE: VOTE: VoidedMafiaYour eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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@EvilBullet: What do you think of VoidedMafia and Neruz? I'm not looking for a past read of yours, I'm asking about your viewpoint right now. Also, can you give your thoughts on Rainbowdash and hiphop?
@Thomith: Your latest post makes it seem as if we must choose between Rainbowdash and EvilBullet as definitely one scum one town. Do you feel that if EB is town RBD must be scum? If EB is scum, RBD is near confirmed town? Can you explain what you think in that regard?
@Beck: RBD is making an assessment based on her own views on balance and what she thinks will be in the game. She's not exactly counterclaiming EB. Do you think that merits a policy lynching, or do you have other reasons to believe RBD is scum independent of this semicounterclaim?Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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Yes, and I STILL don't find him the most scummy. Isn't that interesting?
If EB is hammered and he cardflips town, where will your suspicions go then, Neruz? Do you think that's even possible? Are you arguing that it's a policy lynch, or are you certain that EB is scum?Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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@Thomith: You're misrepresenting what I said. And, by the way, I don't have a town read on EB, he's a null-read at the moment. But if I DID have a town read on EB, I'd be doing exactly what you're trying to lynch him for. Then you'd have another lynch all lined up for tomorrow, something scum is very fond of doing.
Hammering a town-read is NOT always scummy. Just off the top of my head, I can think of two reasons I might do that myself. Misrepresenting what someone else is saying and framing it in the worst possible light, however, is. And that's what you just did, Thomith.
IGMEOY.
EBWOP: What do you mean,town"hammering" a town read is scummy? That's a pretty bad slip there.
UNVOTE: VOTE: Thomith
Explain.Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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Thomith wrote:What i meant by it was i don't see why town would hammer a town read.
You can think of no reason why town would ever hammer a town read?Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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Thomith wrote:EBWOP: town "hammering" a town read
I just want to remember this particular quote because I think it's another case of Thomith being a little too knowledgeable about someone's alignment. It will only matter if EB is really town, but I don't want to forget it in that case.
@Thomith: Why did you make the statement that I don't think it's scummy to hammer a town read when that's not what I said or indicated? Do you think that people are obligated to vote for the person they find most scummy at the given time?Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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Thomith wrote:I misread what you said, i thought you said somewhere about you didn't find EB scummy for hammering town but on a reread you didn't say that.
Could you point me to the post or quote the part that you misread, please? That's a pretty big misunderstanding and I want to be clear on where it originated.
@Neruz: Dramatic much?Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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Again, Thomith, this is not something that I have said. Can you please refrain from reframing my arguments and statements? I have not said if EB flips town you are confirmed scum. I am not clear on why it's important to you to misrepresent me in this way.
I will say that generally town does not misrepresent others in this fashion repeatedly. Would you agree with that statement?Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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My current problem is this.
We have two power roles claimed. One was run up to lynch, one is on deck for tomorrow. I don't agree to this and I won't support it, at least not at this time. EvilBullet is claiming even night jailkeeper. That means his claim can't be tested tonight at all. Rainbowdash semicounterclaimed, and now says that it's based on balance issues and not believing two things would be in the game at the same time.
Because of the size of the game, even-night roles don't exactly make sense. That said, I've seen stranger things. But in order to vote for Rainbowdash tomorrow or insist on a claim, you have to believe:
- 1. That EB is town and RBD is scum (duh, of course)
2. That RBD is the sort of scum who is willing to trade one for one with a relatively useless powerrole for town (even-night jailkeeper isn't the most useful thing, everyone will admit)
The first might be possible. The second? I don't think so. I think Rainbow is a pretty canny player and I think she would never agree to such a one-for-one trade.
That said, I don't know if EB is town or scum. I have enough doubt that I'm not going to jump on that wagon. I suspect that one of our two claimed power-roles will be nightkilled tonight, and then we can lynch the other if that seems warranted (which it may) but I don't want to do the scum's job for them.
I still got my eye on you, Thomith, so don't relax.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: VoidedMafiaYour eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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Beck wrote:Why don't even night roles make sense?
The number of players and hence the number of likely nights available for those actions, mainly. If you had an odd-night role, you would have a better chance of getting to use the power at all, but even that is iffy. It's just not that usual because of the math.
Say you start with 13 players:
- 13 players
-1 lynched
-1 nightkilled
11 players
-1 lynched
-1 nightkilled
1 use of power
9 players
-1 lynched
-1 nightkilled
7 players
(at this point, most games are close to over, but we continue...)
-1 lynched
-1 nightkilled
5 players
-1 lynched
-1 nightkilled
3 uses of power best case scenario
It's just very limiting and usually would be expressed as an "X-shot" rather than an "even-night" to allow for it to actually be used more than once. Thus, I can see why someone would doubt this claim.
However, I don't want to second-guess the mod, but I don't want to lynch EB today either.
@Thomith: Can you rephrase that? I've no idea what you're trying to say, sorry.Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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No, I see what you mean.
There is no point in them killing EB tonight if he is not scum unless they believe he will not be lynched tomorrow. There is a point to them killing RBD if she is town as long as she remains unclaimed, however, because she may be an investigative role that could cause them serious harm.
Essentially:
- If both EB and RBD are town and RBD does not claim:
Mafia may kill unclaimed RBD and push a lynch of EB tomorrow.
Mafia may kill EB and push a lynch of RBD tomorrow, risking her giving an investigation on someone in the town.
If both EB and RBD are town and RBD does claim:
If RBD is a dangerous role they may elect to kill her over EB and push his lynch tomorrow.
If EB is more dangerous to them than RBD they may kill him and then push a lynch on her tomorrow.
If EB is scum and RBD is town and does not claim:
RBD is gone, sorry. No help on that, scum really has to get rid of her. She could be a cop for all they know.
If EB is scum and RBD is town and claims:
If RBD is not perceived as a threat she may be left alive for WIFOM.
If RBD is scum and EB is town (I already explained why I don't think that is possible, actually -- they're trading one for one)
If both are scum... um, we lynch them if they don't die? I don't think scum can leave these power roles alive, especially not knowing RBD's role. So I don't want her claiming today.
My take on things.Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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@Thomith: I cannot speak for Weird but I did not consider that a typo. It may be a mistake, but it's a whole word, not a misspelling or a misuse of the word. It is the unconscious, unintentional tells that usually mean the most.
Why did you suggest attention be given to VoidedMafia and then not follow up with a vote or discussion about him at all?Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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Thomith wrote:I don't like the way that not many people are thinking about voided now, i know other things have popped up but it sort of seems it has let voided slip under the radar a little imo.
Why are you currently contradicting yourself from just a little while ago?Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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@Elli: Do you think that EvilBullet is likely scum? Who tops your scumlist currently?Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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I was going to make a snarky comment to Elli but then I read him over in isolation and I mostly agree with his reads so I decided not to.
@Thomith: Then why bring it up?
- [sarcasm]"Oh, say, Town, let us not forget our previous suspicion of the most excellent VoidedMafia, whom I note Banshee has in fact voted TWICE now, but... oh, don't mind me. I don't want you ACTUALLY to pay attention to VoidedMafia. But if you read me in isolation later, then you'll surely notice that I brought up VoidedMafia, which will be MOST helpful in getting me off the hook at a later date when VM flips scum. Thank you and good day!"[/sarcasm]
Note that the above is not intended to be a direct or indirect representation of your play, Thomith. But it is a representation of how your recent play is making me FEEL.Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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Evil Bullet, care to weigh in?
Your current actions are making me want to vote you really badly.Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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@Evil Bullet: Yes, I meant the lurking. I hate it when I think people are trying to dodge my questions.Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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As for the Elli-Llama discussion, though I wasn't invited to join it, I will say that I personally am an alt, a returning player who hasn't been here for about two years, and I can think of several roles that might cause me to counterclaim an even-night jailkeeper in a Mini Normal even without an extensive knowledge of the current site-wide meta. This does not confirm Rainbowdash as town. It does make me unwilling to press for a claim at this time.Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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I would think the size of the game would make multi-scums (other than SK) unlikely. As for the other, what if it's an "even-night _________"? That was the first thing that came to mind when I read that.Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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@VoidedMafia:
I had not asked you any questions yet. But now that you're here, I will.
Where would your heaviest suspicions fall if EB is lynched and flips town?
Do you think RBD should claim now? Do you think she should be lynched if she refuses to claim now?
What are your opinions of Ellibereth, Thomith, and Neruz? How about Beck?
That's all I have right now, I think.Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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@Evil Bullet: You said you forgot who else I had asked about. Was that an untruthful statement?
I haven't ignored the fourth. They aren't here though, so I was content to wait until they showed up and posted something.
Since you bring it up, what ARE your thoughts on Hiphop?Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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weirdvoigts wrote:The regular way is that they are both town, but if Rainbowdash is an odd-night Jailkeeper, I will be really mad that she thought they couldn't both be in a game.
My first thought (I think I said this before) is that Rainbow is an even-night something and thinks there wouldn't be two even-night town things. Just my guess.
At this point, I am about to concede that I was wrong and RBD should go ahead and claim. If she's town, she might actually buy herself another day by claiming and avoid the nightkill, she will clear a lot of the confusion about EB that was created by her half-claim and we can actually make an informed decision about the situation.
It's still possible they're both town though. I am pretty sure based on the logic of the situation that RBD has to be town. (I can explain this again if anyone wants that.)
Ninja'd! Okay, before you go, Rainbowdash, do you have a percentage figure on how sure you are that EB is fake-claiming? Based on your own logic?Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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@Rainbow: Okay, and sorry for double post to you, but since you're going to be away for a while I need a couple of other answers.
Why were you willing to argue for and support the lynch of EB previously but now are having second thoughts? What has changed between wanting to lynch him without question and now, question?
Do you think that you're a likely target for the nightkill? If EB is town, and if we do not lynch him today, he might be the target of the nightkill. Have you considered that when assessing the best ways to proceed from here?Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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@implosion: Who is your strongest scum read? I am assuming it's still me. So, if you were to successfully lynch me and I flipped town, where would your suspicion land then? You've given two town reads and one scum read, do you have ANYTHING else to contribute?
What do you think is the scummiest thing I've done since replacing into the game? What was the scummiest thing deselby did?Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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@Implosion: I was referring to your most recent post, not your overall ISO, when I said you had two town reads and one scum read. I still think it's strange that you have just one real suspicion and you don't show any interest in questioning me directly or trying to figure out connections between me and others in the town. Instead, I'm questioning you -- that seems sort of backwards to me.
I would be willing to lynch VoidedMafia, hiphop or Thomith. Of the three, Thomith gains us the least in information. Ironically, I think Neruz gains us most but I don't have a scum read on him at this time so I'm not supporting his lynch.
@Ellibereth: You said you would not be giving any reads until Rainbow claimed. Rainbow is not claiming. Are you going to give reads now, or is that moratorium still in effect?Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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I said that. ^
Thomith can barely speak without spewing out three or four scumtells. He's had plenty of connections with plenty of people and as I read them they are all pretty much the same as mine, which have ranged from SRSLY? to WTF?
People who are TOO scummy don't give as much information because both town and scum will usually react in the same way to extremely obvious scumtells, overreactions and overdefensiveness. So it's less information for town because pretty much everyone will react the same way.Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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Banshee Goon
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@Implosion:
I think you're likely town. Your posts seem to demonstrate real scumhunting at first; however, I think you've come to a conclusion about what it means when someone votes to make it L-2 and then unvotes at L-1 that really isn't based on anything but sheer conjecture. I can't justify it either, since I've no idea why deselby would do that.
I also think at this point you have one scumread and you're going to fight to keep it since if it goes, you won't have any scumreads at all. So you're already suffering from confirmation bias and I doubt I could change your mind short of death. I suspect that explains why you didn't feel any need to question me about any of the things I did since replacing into the game that simply confirmed your scum read on me.Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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@implosion:
What would it take, precisely, to move up from the -11 that you believe Deselby put the slot to?
I would argue that it really doesn't matter what I do, you're not going to change your mind. Therefore your opinion of me can't really have any bearing on my behaviour. I think if you were interested in verifying or testing your read you'd have asked me some questions, at least to try to figure out who my supposed scumbuddies would be.
Try to figure out some other scumreads, though. Tunneling on one player isn't helping anyone and will leave you stranded when I flip town. However, the way you're doing it it's not scummy; scum would have some back burner options too. It's just not smart.
@Rainbow: I'm already voting VoidedMafia.Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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Banshee Goon
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Banshee Goon
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There is one thing that seriously bothers me and I want to point it out right now.
Rainbowdash and Evil Bullet both claimed power roles. It seems pretty clear to me that Beck killed Sleuth and then was the target of the nightkill, but it doesn't really matter how that happened for purposes of this discussion:
Why are both Rainbowdash and Evil Bullet still alive?
Why would the scum shoot in the dark at Beck (or Sleuth) when there are TWO claimed power roles in town?
You can argue WIFOM all you want, but I'm going to say that there's at least one scum and perhaps two in that set of two. I can't believe no one else has noticed this and commented on it yet, I deliberately waited and even asked Rainbowdash about it in an effort to see who would notice and react, and no one really did.
VOTE: RainbowdashYour eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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@Thomith: I voted for Rainbowdash because she has not claimed her role. If I were scum, I would be MORE wary of her than of an even-night jailkeeper because she could be a vig (that Beck turned out to be) or any number of other things. Jailkeeper depends heavily on figuring out who the scum are or who the power roles are, and RBD's claim essentially short-circuits that for town.
If Evil Bullet is the jailkeeper, and Rainbowdash is scum, her claim is likely to get EB to use his power on her, thus controlling its use tonight and presenting WIFOM tomorrow. EB will rightly claim that he jailkept her, and RBD will proclaim that she is somehow semi-cleared by this.
If EB is scum and RBD is scum, then the same logic applies except no work is involved for either of them in that regard.
If RBD is town and EB is scum, then there was no reason to leave RBD alive last night. Scum would have to assume Rainbow's claim was correct, so they would have to kill her before she could use it, especially since she never said if it was investigative. So Rainbowdash remaining alive is less likely if she is town than EB remaining alive if he is town.
Since I presented it as equally possible in my first post, why did you react to my vote on Rainbowdash in that way, Thomith? Clearly I can only vote for one of them, right?Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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Rainbowdash wrote:So I think Neruz is town here
EB, Elli and Thomith are probably town, would not be shocked from a scum flips but I don't expect one.
Can you justify these reads, even briefly?
Why did Implosion go from being one of your top town reads and one of the only ponies you can trust to being probable scum? Which flip caused that radical change?
What is your view on Llamarble specifically? Why is he an unsuitable scumpartner for the two people you mentioned?
Why would you say that EB is probably town but change that to could easily be scum within the space of a few hours?
Most importantly, why didn't you comment on something that by your own admission you were shocked at? Why weren't YOU the one asking these questions and having these suspicions?Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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How would massclaim benefit the town, in your view? Do you intend to fullclaim if a massclaim is approved?Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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Also, I'm in a short list of four possible scum in which EB does not appear. I'm also the only possible partner for Llamarble according to your list. My support of the VoidedMafia wagon is treated as bussing for no good reason that I can see while other people are regarded as town for the same basic behaviour. Logically you OUGHT to be voting me, Rainbowdash, if you believe what you're saying, since I'm the ONLY person on your list who could be paired with all of the others on your list. I would be the logical choice. So why Implosion?
This makes me think that if Rainbowdash is scum, Llamarble is the other scum.
@EvilBullet: Thoughts on why scum shot in the unknown pool rather than take out either you or Rainbowdash?Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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@Rainbowdash:
If EB is scum, then your plan cannot work. Your plan completely depends on EB being town, but you claim not to know if he's town or not. He could very easily be scum, according to you.
Which is it? Because you seem VERY confused today about everything. For someone who's had definite views all through the last very long day, suddenly you believe both that EB is town enough to confirm people and scum enough to be suspicious... Implosion was your right hand man all day yesterday but today he's the most likely scum. You pushed VoidedMafia's lynch rather halfheartedly yourself but you consider it bussing when others do it to pretty much the same degree.
I want some input from Hiphop and Neruz on this. They haven't posted today yet.Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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Rainbowdash wrote:Like I said though, all I need to do is get scum lynched today and we are going to start having cleared ponies through EB.
This is the plan to which I referred.
Not the massclaim plan, which I do not support.
This particular quoted comment is not made by someone who thinks EB is possibly scum.
Therefore you do not think EB ispossiblyscum.
Either you know he is, and you're scum with him, or you know he's town because you're scum, or you know he's town for some other reason.
You pushed a VM lynch, then left it in post #653. Finally coming back to it with a double vote gambit and then:
Rainbowdash wrote:I need to decide a few things before hammering here. Vanilla was the only claim from him I would have believed at all given the cult talk, so much for baiting him into fakeclaiming doctor.
Ellibereth is still town, I feel selfless right now, not to mention lost. No clue why you ponies trust Beck as much as you do. Sleuth is town if one of VM and deselby are scum. EB is probably town at this point, actually moreso if VM is town for cool reasons. Implosion is lower on the list then before, but leans town. Thomith is still Pinkie Hooves.
Yeah.
I will let this go another day or so but intention to hammer declared. I ask no pony else to actually hammer because I still want to mull over bringing out my info and other secrets, although I doubt that I need to after that claim.
That seems pretty wishywashy to me. Llamarble actually even suggested wagoning EB during this period of time, too.Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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Rainbowdash wrote:Or by including "lynch scum today" means that anypony EB targets could not have submitted a NK, meaning that as town or scum he has to clear somepony every night.
Okay. As scum, EB could claim to target any one he chooses. Let's say he says he targets you and puts in a NK on me. You're cleared, except not really. You could be scum, or you could be town. If EB is scum NOTHING he says is guaranteed true. You're assuming his role is truthful even if his alignment is not known... what makes you believe that to be the case?
Anyway, I've laid out my case and I think it's a good one. I'm looking for someone NOT Rainbowdash to critique it and explain to me where my logic has failed or what I may have gotten wrong along the way.Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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I do not support a massclaim.
I do not see a reason to give the scum more info than they already have.
Additionally, Rainbowdash doesn't seem sure of much except that she wants more information on town power roles.
This doesn't make me happy.
Before people start claiming (too late for Hiphop, I note) then I think we should at least see the level of support for this plan. I can see readily why Rainbowdash would support this, since if more power roles appeared at least it would make SOME sense as to why she and EB were left alive.
If both of them were town, there's nothing preventing scum from killing one and assuming that the other would be lynched in the morning. If one or more of them is scum, however, then leaving them both alive makes perfect sense in order to protect the scum hiding in the pool of two. If we out further power roles then they can continue justifying not killing one or both of them possibly for the entire duration of the game.
We should NOT be making the scum's job easier regardless of what Rainbowdash thinks about it.Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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No. I don't agree and I won't participate. Lynch me if you want to over it. Just lynch Rainbowdash for it later. She and EB are the only ponies in town who benefit, and then only if they are scum.
Hiphop, if you don't support Rainbowdash claiming, why did you claim?Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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You do understand that if Rainbowdash is scum or if EB is scum, you've just given them another target to hit that excuses why they are allowed to remain alive?
You get that, right? If EITHER of them is scum, now you're the next kill and they can say, oh, look, that's why we didn't get killed. You just gave additional cover to possible, even probable scum.
I don't see a good reason to do that. Can you explain why it's a good idea?Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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All right. Who do you think are the scum, Hiphop?
Why do you think that the scum did not hit either claimed town power role and went directly for an unknown instead? Do you think that's optimal play? What are some reasons to hit an unknown town rather than a claimed power role?Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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Ooooh, Llamarble, them's pretty tough words. Why aren't you voting me if you're so sure I'm scum?
Go ahead, I'd love to be confirmed and have people read over exactly what I said here. Do it!
Wouldn't it be scary if it got up to FIVE claimed roles and one turned out to be an odd-night investigator? Wooooo.... spooky!Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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Yes, there are a number of reasons that I believe Rainbowdash is more likely to be scum than Evil Bullet. Hence, my vote on her.
No, I don't expect she is lynchable. I think the only reason they haven't started a serious wagon on me already is that they aren't sure exactly what I know and exactly how bad my cardflip will be if they lynch me. But being lynched is worth it if people start THINKING and stop letting Rainbowdash lead the town in circles.Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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Opinions vary on how much Rainbowdash ever wanted VoidedMafia lynched, since she jumped off the first attempt pretty fast to start another wagon and Llamarble was eagerly trying to start an EB wagon even on the second attempt.
As for her theory about how EB will eventually clear everyone, that would make a lot more sense if he could actually clear people more than once every other night. Her plan won't work and she ought to know it, since she's using it as the basis for her great master plan. Mathematically he cannot clear people fast enough to keep up with the nightkills, let alone the potential mislynches. So this is a plan doomed to failure. Someone who was depending on it for victory would probably have looked at it more closely than Rainbow appears to have done.Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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Rainbowdash wrote:
But no. So your entire arguement is that I led the town in circles that by after pushing hiphop a little I laid into my partner and pushed that until somepony fakehammered, and eventually brought it right back onto my parter instead of the claimed VT. Also that I apparently had daytalk and did absolutely nothing to VM of how to get out of me pushing him when it was obvious that I had some of the most sway out of anypony?
Stretch more. Paranoia less.
That certainly is not my entire argument. In fact, I think you are scum, that you made a couple of passes at VM and decided to buss him for additional town cred but were worried about looking too sure of yourself, that ultimately you did buss him and were looking for credit for it. I think you then left EB alive and went for Beck as one of the most outspoken townies because EB really wasn't a threat to you and while he was alive you had cover for why you remained alive after claiming a power role. I think you then argued we should all massclaim so that you'd have the same cover if you decided to kill off EB in case he decided to keep you safe (which of course, you don't want) and to out more power roles.
I think you've been remarkably changeable in your reads without a lot of explanations about why those reads changed dramatically and I think Implosion is perhaps the poster child for that sudden shift without an explanation. I think you're arguing for a plan where EB clears everyone without ever thinking about that plan and just how farfetched it would be in reality.
Oh, and I think Llamarble is your scumbuddy.
That's a lot more argument than YOU said.Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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Banshee Goon
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My scumlist currently is:
Rainbowdash
Llamarble
Thomith
Neruz
Hiphop
I'm voting my top suspicion. I expect I will be all day.
No, I'm not sure Thomith is scum. I think he is scummy. I don't know if this is how he always plays or not, though.Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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@Rainbow:
If EB is town, which is not certain but seems likely, and if you lynch scum today, which again is not certain and may be less likely given the level of interest people are showing in this game overall, then you still will not guarantee three forced scum lynches.
If your scenario plays out they will kill EB if he is town. Possibly not tonight, but sooner or later. In any case, that situation won't last through two confirms, much less three, unless you're arguing we'll lynch scum today and then dawdle around letting scum kill us until we're in LYLO. Is that your contention?
I'm still waiting for EB to explain how I am scum. Llamarble, you need to put up or shut up too. What's your case on me? That my slot was the go-to wagon when people were flying off the first VoidedMafia wagon? That I was the first one Rainbowdash led the town to in that situation?
I'm looking over Llamarble's contributions in ISO and in context, so I'll have something on that later today. I ought to look at WeirdVoigts too, I don't feel I have a clear read on that slot either.Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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Llamarble wrote:I AM HERE AND I AM TOWN.
READ COMING THIS EVENING.
TOTALLY-SKIMMED-SCUMREAD: VOIDEDMAFIA
Llamarble wrote:Yeah, I'd have liked to hear a claim. Also actually catch up.
I read VM's ISO and it wasn't obv either way on first pass.
Some scummy stuff, but long in the way that scum often don't talk that much.
Ah Neruz is clearly scum. So there's that.
These two posts are about twenty-four hours apart. Which is it? Was VM obvious on first pass, or was he not?
Llamarble wrote:Sure, maybe you are town then. Bullet's scum though. That hammer was atrocious. Bullet and Beck.
And scum says LOOK CLOSELY AT X WIFOMWIFOMWIFOM all the time anyway.
Llamarble wrote:Yeah, he's pretty much confirmed scum right now.
Town just don't hammer townreads FOR NO GOOD REASON.
Llamarble wrote:Oh I guess I did miscount.
Bleh.
I still have a long ways to go before any kind of read I'm confident in.
Except EB cause he claimed scum yaddiyaddi.
Llamarble wrote:Where I'm at currently (and rather tentatively):
Town:
Meeeee
Townish:
Neruz
Thomith
Elli
RD
Scummy:
Beck
Voided
EB
WV could be scum. I'll get there.
What made EB town for you between yesterday and today?
Was it the fact he survived overnight despite his claim?
How did that work, exactly?Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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Thomith wrote:banshee wrote:dawdle around letting scum kill us until we're in LYLO. Is that your contention?
Where did you get that from?
banshee wrote:Was it the fact he survived overnight despite his claim?
I am sure someone has pointed this out already but last night EB was not a threat to scum as he had no action to perform, why would scum kill someone who posed no threat to them?
In order to get three confirmed townies out of a town-EB investigative streak we have to wait through six nights. If that wouldn't put us at LYLO, we'd be pretty darn close. This supposes of course that EB is town, RBD is town, the scum don't kill EB during this supposed streak and we lynch scum today. A pretty unlikely line of suppositions.
EB would be a threat to scum tonight and it would be too late to kill him tonight. Therefore if they believed he would be a threat to them they would have had to kill him last night rather than wait until tonight when he could conceivably block the nightkill. This assumes that EB is town, of course.
I want an answer from you, Thomith, about whether you believe my logic in this post is sound or, if not, how it is incorrect.Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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I'm assuming that... okay, for the sake of argument, Neruz, if you think I'm scum and you're a jailkeeper, and you jailkeep me, I can't kill you or anyone else, can I?
Kills are not resolved before roleblocks, are they?Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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@Neruz: As scum, what is the advantage of passing up killing two town power roles in order to aim at an unidentified third in the town pool?
I can see three reasons personally, which I will relate:
1. The scum intended to push the lynch of one of the two power roles today and when that role flipped town to lynch the other by process of elimination. I'm the only one pushing either lynch and I'm not scum, and no one is jumping on that bandwagon with me, so that's not the reason behind it.
2. The WIFOM EB brought up that made Llamarble so certain he was scum yesterday and miraculously healed him to Not-scum today. They did it because they didn't regard either RBD or EB as a threat. This pretty much requires that they have a day role-cop on the scum side who investigated RBD and discovered she wasn't any threat at all. This one is mildly possible.
3. The scum believe RBD and EB are both so far off the track that it made more sense to go after Beck who was likely to nail one or more of them to the wall, something they couldn't risk after VM was lost.
There are the reasons against what I've argued. There may be others, but these are the main reasons against my points.Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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Hmmm, I agree except that no one is pushing either lynch except me. Literally no one is pushing EB's lynch.
Doesn't that seem a little odd to you? Of course, now we've done the Schrodinger's cat thing and they won't, but it was odd that no scum jumped on my little bandwagon assuming your assessment is correct.Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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And the first part of that question?
Was VoidedMafia obvious scum on a first read or was he not obvious scum on a first read?Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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Yes, that would argue that even on a skim you thought VM was scum.
Your next comment was that he wasn't, within about a day of the first.
You do understand why that's troubling, right?
And hey, where's your case on me? Just calling me scum doesn't constitute a case, and you can't get out of it by saying maybe I'm just dumb when I ask you for justification. You said it, own it and make your case.Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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I entered the game when it neared a lynch. I supported that lynch because I thought EB was lying and I thought his behaviour regarding the quickhammer was pretty strange. That lynch fell apart while I was reading over the game. During the course of that read, I thought VoidedMafia was scum. I voted for him and, since I'd just replaced into the game not long before, I didn't make a big case. But I did vote him for much of Day One, you're right, once I replaced in.
What do you think that means, exactly? That I voted for someone and supported their lynch without pushing it overtly? Is that a scumtell in your opinion if the lynchee flips scum?Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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Banshee Goon
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At this point the damage I was trying to prevent has already been done and the water has been muddied already. So I'll participate, meh. Weirdvoigts is up but I'll go next if people want to skip him for now since he hasn't weighed in yet.Your eyes are weary from staring at the monitor. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.-
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Banshee Goon
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