Mini 1265: Wickedestjr's Mini Normal- Game Over

[treznor]

/confirm

[treznor]

Timeeater and Katty fighting sounds more like a townie fight to me at the moment. Dunno.

VOTE: el_simo for old-times sake

[treznor]

My vote isn't going to stay on el_simo, just wanted to pick on him a bit as we ran into each other in our last game

unvote

[treznor]

I'm more inclined to think of you and Katty Bard as town-fighting at the moment

[treznor]

VOTE: treznor for RVing after discussion had started and then immediately unvoting when timeeater called them out on it.

FoS

Gen_Wolf for also RVing after discussions had start it. Was 1st to do this, but treznor is slightly scummier for backing off and actually unvoting it.

Waiting for vote count to see if odysseus is actual double voter. I assume so since there is no good reason to fake it.

It wasn't a random vote, I voted for el_simo because he's the only person I know here and there was no possibility of him being lynched at the time. I thought it was pretty clear that it was a flippant vote when I placed it and I stuck around to unvote later on to make sure the vote didn't lead to anything.

[treznor]

I'd also like to note Treznor just powerlurked out of the game. Scum.

What does that mean? Powerlurked?

Votecount 1.2:

Katty Bard - [3] - Uphill, Odysseus, Soben
Timeater - [2] - el simo, DemonHybrid
Odysseus - [2] - ScreamingHawk, redtail896
treznor - [2] - Timeater, bionicchop2
Uphill - [1] - Katty Bard
el simo - [1] - Gen_Wolf


Not Voting - [2] - Yonzy, treznor

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch or 7 to no-lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2011-11-09 11:01:07)

[treznor]

I'm more inclined to think of you and Katty Bard as town-fighting at the moment

Also, this is a rather bold statement since there is very little information on either.

Town read on both already?

Definitely don't have town-reads on them. Someone upthread that he thought one or the other, but not both, are probably scum. I was just tossing out my view that it sounds more like town-on-town fighting to me. Definitely don't have solid reads on either of them though.

[treznor]

0-1 scum in Kat/Time, fairly sure there's 1 there.

This is what I was addressing... sorry for not quoting earlier to make it apparent.

[treznor]

Timeeater and Katty fighting sounds more like a townie fight to me at the moment. Dunno.

VOTE: el_simo for old-times sake

I'm more inclined to think of you and Katty Bard as town-fighting at the moment

Does anyone else think this kid isn't reading? Town-fighting? When have they even remotely disagreed? They're buddying each other... He later posts a quote of ours where we say that one of Katty/Time are scum and the other is town. I think he saw that and made the assumption that it was because they were arguing each other and posted without reading anymore of the thread. I can't think of any other logical reason for him to come to this conclusion if he had actually read but Slaxx and I have conflicting views on which alignment this points to so I'll elaborate on this more when I reach him.

This. After a long-time inactive, I just completed a newbie game that moved nowhere near as quickly as this one is (el_simo can back that up... the pace was.. painful). I'm trying to keep up but having trouble sometimes

[treznor]

I'd also like to note Treznor just powerlurked out of the game. Scum.

What does that mean? Powerlurked?

I would actually like to know this too.

Means he was looking at the thread, had multiple chances to respond and did not, I'm taking into account his response time so far as well, observing thread but only responded (two times I think so far) when someone called him out. Of course something like this is highly ...unreliable, but its fuel to the fire.

I've responded every time that I've looked at the thread. I leave my browser open with a number of tabs (this thread being one of them), so perhaps that's what causes the confusion? During the (RL) day I get busy a lot so post sporadically.

[treznor]

Timeater, I see validity in the argument, I just don't exactly agree with it making him scum, I think his unvote was appeasement towards you to a degree but it's moreso a tell of a bad player than anything else..

Hey, I resemble that remark! Seriously though, to this day I can't handle Day 1 very well. I've played probably 50-75 games through an email server, plus two games here and a couple in RL and I still just don't see how people pick things up Day 1. After Day 1 when you've got some interaction and voting patterns to go on makes a lot more sense to me. I guess in that respect I probably am a bit of a bad player

[treznor]

EBWDP: I'm more on the side of 22 being a scumtell than not. Trying to get someone lynched and claiming it's better than a no-lynch this far away from deadline just seems like a scummy thing to say. However, it seems very, very n00bscum, possibly even too obvious for a scum to say.

[treznor]

EBWTP: When I said 22, I mean 17... I'm leaning towards Uphill being scum.

[treznor]

EBWTP: When I said 22, I mean 17... I'm leaning towards Uphill being scum.

Why?

I thought I was pretty clear in #78 as to my reasons why I find 17 to be scummy. Why would town state they were trying to lynch someone solely because it's better than no-lynching. A true statement, but no-lynch isn't in the vicinity of happening at the moment considering how far we are from deadline.

[treznor]

Edit the above:
How much do you think Uphill was seriously saying that?

Again, 78 answers this. I think if that was what he meant to say then that's very n00bscum... I'll have to read some of Uphill's past games to see if I think that's a possibility. If I thought it was a strong tell, I probably would have my vote on Uphill right now, right?

[treznor]

treznor; You replied to part of the post that contained my case against Katty, no opinion? Do you still think treznor is town now that he's pushing on you so hard? How do you read DH? Preedit says you buy Time's version of noob uphill. After reading mine, have you changed your mind? Why/why not?

I'd go along with Katty being scum if it weren't primarily based on the whole 'someone that explains themselves to much is probably scum' theory... I do that myself way too much (regardless of towniness), so it's tough to attribute it to someone else while knowing that I do the same thing as well when playing as town. Certainly not a town read for me though, null-to-scum.

As for Uphill, you're theory is swaying me a bit. I wish we had more meta to go on for Uphill, but he's only been on the site for a couple days and thus only has a couple of posts to go from. I'd agree that its more likely he was flippantly saying something 'cause he thought it was funny. However, the possibility still exists that he was scum just not thinking things through (at all). And of course you're theory that he's uber-scum going for the over-the-top scumread thinking it would actually clear him as scum is a possibility, though I think its the least likely of the three.

Naw I'm not gonna play with someone who consistently calls me a VI

No thanks, I have a business to run.

This from someone with arguably the biggest attitude in the thread and who's meta shows him denigrating other players? No one's going to force you to play, but seriously, that's pretty childish.

[treznor]

Wow, went from a frenetic storm of posts to.... eerily quiet.

[treznor]

I've gotten the scum vibe from Katty Bard for a while and Odysseus' posts have solidified my reasoning a bit. I'm a big supporter of IIoA as scummy as well (recognizing though that sometimes town will do the same thing as you just don't always have the analysis to post).

VOTE: Katty Bard

DH: If Katty Bard's join data tells you something, what does my join date tell you?

[treznor]

EDWOP: Posting from the plane (which has spotty internet at best). Didn't notice the entire page 7 prior to my last post. I see Odysseus went back on his read of Katty Bard a slight bit. I'm still leaving my vote there as I find her to be the scummiest option at the moment but agree with others that I'd like to hear her post some more to see if that holds up. My number 2 is Timeater. I know a number of people have stated that his actions fall into his meta for town, and his actions are hardly standard scum play either, but its hard to attribute his actions as seeming like town play, at least to me. Again, will be good to hear from FightingShadow to see if that holds up.

[treznor]

Bionicchop, I explained that in the previous post. I'm a fan of IIoA = scummy. Unfortunately I'm also horrible about posting IIoA (which I'm working on) so I also doesn't always trust it as a scum read. Yes, it's an enigma wrapped in a riddle. I swear every time I post in the thread I get more votes In #98 I said she was null-to-scum, in 162 I moved towards scum. I don't see how those are actually all that contradictory. I openly state in 98 that the only reason that I was holding back from full-on scumread on Katty for IIoA is that I know I'm prone to it as well, even when I'm town (which is the only alignment I've actually had on this site).

[treznor]

Bionicchop, I explained that in the previous post. I'm a fan of IIoA = scummy. Unfortunately I'm also horrible about posting IIoA (which I'm working on) so I also doesn't always trust it as a scum read. Yes, it's an enigma wrapped in a riddle. I swear every time I post in the thread I get more votes In #98 I said she was null-to-scum, in 162 I moved towards scum. I don't see how those are actually all that contradictory. I openly state in 98 that the only reason that I was holding back from full-on scumread on Katty for IIoA is that I know I'm prone to it as well, even when I'm town (which is the only alignment I've actually had on this site).

[treznor]

FightingShadow, 2 points:
1) You'll need to bold your unvote if you want it to count.
2) Please don't quote people without actually using the quote feature as then we can't tell what's going on, especially if I don't specifically remember that someone else said that already.

Because of those two points, I have no idea what you were actually trying to do or show in the post above.

[treznor]

Now for what's really frustrating me. treznor STILL isn't reading.

FightingShadow, 2 points:
1) You'll need to bold your unvote if you want it to count.
2) Please don't quote people without actually using the quote feature as then we can't tell what's going on, especially if I don't specifically remember that someone else said that already.

Because of those two points, I have no idea what you were actually trying to do or show in the post above.

Number one is referring to this post where FightingShadow accidentally copied Katty's last post. FS even said at the top of his next post that he didn't mean to post it. I have three huge problems with this.
1) treznor didn't recongize this as Katty's and that was a couple pages ago meaning he wasn't reading then.
2) This post makes absolutely no since from either Time or Fighting's PoV and that should have struck trez as odd but the only thing he posted about it is that he didn't bold the unvote. Still not reading/not really looking?
3) He didn't read the second post closely enough to even see FS apologising for this miss-post.
4) trez's second point is absolutely horrid and it doesn't matter if a post is linked or not.
I don't know what to do about this because I still have a bit of a townread on trez but he is obviously not giving us real reads. simo, is this consistent with his meta? It's one thing to not have enough time to read but it's a whole different animal to post multiple times per page but be proven at mutliple times during the game to not be reading... I know this is harsh but trez, you either need to shape up or ask for replacement because we deserve better than what you've been giving.

I very much am reading, thank you very much. Your entire case is based on me missing one post, on a new page. It should probably have been pretty obvious that somehow I missed the page turn. I obviously recognized that FS was quoting someone (and knew that it was Katty Bard but didn't feel the need to post that as it was pretty obvious who he was posting). However, I couldn't tell quickly whether or not he was quoting the entire post from KB or just a portion of it because he didn't link the quote. If you don't feel that those two points are proper etiquette, then I guess that's your opinion. In my opinion, votes need to be bolded so its obvious what you're doing (and that's not an opinion, that's a mod rule) and quotes need to be quoted so we can trust them, easily see the context, etc. Yes, in this case I knew exactly who was being quoted as I remembered the post but in other cases that may not be true.

FS's post after that cleared things up but, as I stated above, I missed the page-turn. I apologize for offending your delicate sensibilities.

[treznor]

Just a side note, his sign up date of 2004 is odd with his style of play up to this point. How much exp have you actually had here? Oh lots, #77.

This. After a long-time inactive, I just completed a newbie game that moved nowhere near as quickly as this one is (el_simo can back that up... the pace was.. painful). I'm trying to keep up but having trouble sometimes

Now who isn't reading? Regardless of my join date (which I've referenced as being mis-leading) I have played two games on this site. One in 2004 and one that I just completed. Having played a number of games via an email site means you understand the mechanics, but not how statements and actions will be perceived here.

Sorry for the inactivity yesterday all. I was slammed at work and couldn't post much and then when drinking around 3pm until I came home and passed out in bed. At least the drinking started early yesterday

[treznor]

[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 5#p3547325]Now I hate to start defending someone based on their meta and what not, but in our last game I was endlessly frustrated with treznor for just ignoring whole posts I made (considering we were in lylo the feeling was exponential lol). So I'm still not seeing anything scum from him, but can certainly understand the frustration.[/quote]
I'm not sure what makes so many think I'm not reading (and in the game you are referencing I was definitely reading, in this game I was behind for a short while). If I read a post and don't have a response, I don't post anything regarding it. It doesn't mean I didn't read it, it means I didn't have anything to say. If I later contradict something you said in that post without referencing it; again, it doesn't mean I didn't read it, it means I either disagree with it or get a different read based on the same information.

[treznor]

Annd, of course I break the quote tag after asking someone else to please use the quote tag... aarrrggghhhh.

[treznor]

[quote="In

You're wrong, Uphill. FS used quotes for his big post but he didn't have the part that links to the post that the quote was taken from. That is what treznor was talking about when he asked to use the quote feature. I know this because there's no other way that his bolding the unvote comment makes sense otherwise. FS never unvoted, he only voted trez and the only time it looked even remotely like that was when he accidentally copied Katty's post. Further proof that he's not reading can be found by the fact that Katty's post was actually in FS's big post and trez still didn't notice.

Wait, what? You're saying that because the only way "bolding the unvote" makes sense is in reference to 174, "quote feature" must therefore be a reference to the lack of links in the quotes in 175? Because that makes, like, negative infinity sense.

Treznor's post is a lot more sensible if you look at it from the point of view of someone who only read page 7. "bolding the unvote" makes sense if he didn't realize the UNVOTE was from Katty's post and thought Fighting was trying to unvote, and "quote feature" makes sense if he saw the failed Katty quote and thought Fighting didn't know about quote tags.[/quote]
Sorry for the multiple posts; I'm catching up from being out yesterday and I prefer to do it this way rather than a wall in a single post.

This is -exactly- why I was pointing out that quote tags should be used. I remembered Katty Bard posting that post but I didn't remember that she posted an unvote right before that comment. And without a quote tag to use, I'd have to go find the post manually. I know it isn't hard to do, but considering there's enough to do in a quickly moving game on this site, cutting down on the 'extraneous' work (i.e. work that could easily be done away with by having a quote tag) is definitely well-intentioned, meaning the obvious is not well-intentioned (i.e. scummy).

None of this is to be taken as a knock against FS as he posted quickly afterwards that he didn't mean to make the post.

Ninja edit: Odysseus, glad to see you understand what I managed to (accidentally) do. I'm leaving the above as some of it is still relevant.

[treznor]

Crap, I broke the friggin quote function AGAIN. At this point I'm ready to make a post about myself and how I should use the quote function better. I really hate trying to quote multiple posts, which is why I prefer posting multiple posts instead of responding in a single post. And I still managed to mess that up.

[treznor]

Okay, caught back up. My reads:
Strong Town
Odysseus
Soben

Weak town
el simo

Weak Scum
Uphil
Katty Bard
Timater/FightingShadow

Strong Scum
ScreamingHawk

I know that isn't everyone. I don't bother with null reads as it means I haven't formed an opinion.

Odysseus

If you're scum, well played. You've posted some quite detailed scumhunting that has helped form a number of my reads. Detailed reasoning is tough to do as scum.

Soben

Similar to Odysseus. Been quite straight-forward with a number of your reads and the reasoning behind them, and the reasoning makes sense.

el simo

I don't have a lot to backup my read on el simo other than his playstyle seems similar to the last game, which he was town.

Uphill

I've had the widest reads on Uphil, going from strong scum to town and back to (weak) scum. I know he defended me, and did so in a logical manner, while I wasn't around yesterday. The only defense I can give for having a weak scum read is that it could be buddying to get someone on his side and defending someone he knows to be town (if he's scum) in order to provide some 'hey I'm providing logical decisions' points. That said, he's my weakest scum read and those that are stating he's town I think have a strong case as well.

Katty Bard

After her last post I'm willing to take a step back from my opinion on her. I would have had her as Strong Scum before, now I'm back to having her between Uphill and Timeater/FightingShadow. A couple more posts like that will have her back at null or Weak Town.

Timeater/FightingShadow

Most of my read on this slot is based on Timeater. I know that's old information and seems to be in his playstyle as well. However, his rage-quit just really reads to me as him seeing he was going to have a big uphill battle to get people to follow him as town.

ScreamingHawk

I'm on board with this. The fact that Odysseus (my strongest Town read) started it (not including the DH vote which was done prior to the post Odysseus was responding to) started it does have some influence in my eyes. Even without that I'd like to hope I would have noticed the inconsistency and gone the same direction.

I'm in the same boat as Yonzy (except I do know where the votecount lays... I believe it's at L-2). I want to vote ScreamingHawk, I don't want to put the L-1 vote on him without giving him a chance to respond.

[treznor]

Lmao @ the treznor quote fails.

I know, right? Always the way it goes.

[treznor]

ScreamingHawk, you didn't address Soben's post here. That's one of the more damning posts against you, and one of the more difficult to explain on your part. I really don't feel like you've addressed Odysseus' post completely either. I feel like you've probably addressed it as well as you can, but it still doesn't explain it other than flip-flopping.

VOTE: ScreamingHawk

[treznor]

I have a question for pretty much everyone: Why do you think trez isn't reading and which fucking alignment would do this?

Hmm. I feel like, if he were mafia, his buddies would be getting after him to pay more attention. He DOES seem more attentive now, though. Also, I just don't quite get the vibe that he's lazy town. It's about half-and-half between gut and various contradictions he's made that have been pointed out.
Another thing. If he continue(d) to not read or pay attention, he'd be a liability to his faction. Anyone, town or mafia, could point out his mistakes and push him for an easy lynch.

There's a point in here that is leading me away from Katty Bard = scum much more. Probably enough to push me towards Katty Bard = weak town unless she's a much craftier player than I think she is (not saying she isn't, just that it would need to be fairly thought out and could only be done in a limited situation).

ScreamingHawk-
Between Iso #7 and #9... First, he says trez is null-town, then just suddenly switches to saying trez is his scummiest read; on top of that, the things SH remarks are scummy are things that happened in the early game. So things that would have happened BEFORE iso 7.
Basically, the thought process here looks like this: "merrr, I dunno about this, don't want to incriminate him yet" -> "oh look, odysseus pointed out a mistake he made" -> "SCUM SCUM YOU WERE ALWAYS SCUM"
what.
Iso #10: I still don't understand why Oddy would be on the chopping block if I were scum...
Yeah, this dude is probably mafia.

One more for the pile of why ScreamingHawk is scum.

Timeater/FS-
Timeater was weird, but relatively consistent. FS' catchup post leans town, but I need more from him to be sure(r).

I agree, I just think Timeater sounded more consistently scummy. The main thing that worried me is that he sounded so scummy that no scum could sound like that. I bit of WIFOM on that though. Agree that FS has sounded much more townie than Timeater

treznor-
It's pretty apparent that this guy has been clueless from the start.
ISOs (2,4) Defending RVS vote is weird. Except in 4 you say it's not a random vote...but then go on to describe your reasoning, which basically fits that of a random vote.

Perhaps its just me an my math/engineering background, but random to me is just that. Random. No stated reason, and not even the possibility of a stated reason. My vote on el simo was because we ran into each other in the prior game and I thought it would be a humorous way to acknowledge that. I'm used to people being quite alright with that early in the game.

Here he basically admits he's sheeping Odysseus' SH read. I don't like it.

I have stated that Odysseus is my strongest town read (as I think he is for a number of people in the game). If the thinking of your strong town reads doesn't influence your own thinking, I'm not sure what to say. I definitely strongly consider the points of my strong town reads to determine whether or not they match my thinking.

He never mentioned Timeater until here. And suddenly he's suspicious, and the new guy can't exactly speak for his predecessor. This reads as opportunistic.

That's actually weird. I would have sworn that I posted something along the lines of me thinking he was acting scummy before but I can't find it now. It would have been around the time of his rage-quit. He was never my highest choice (first Uphill, then you, then ScreamingHawk), so he wasn't a focus of me, especially considering there wasn't all that much more support for him being scum from others.

[treznor]

Whew... managed to make it through a post with multiple quotes without breaking them

[treznor]

Timeater/FightingShadowMost of my read on this slot is based on Timeater. I know that's old information and seems to be in his playstyle as well. However, his rage-quit just really reads to me as him seeing he was going to have a big uphill battle to get people to follow him as town.

Has my posting since replacement (I know there isn't much of it) altered this view at all? You didn't respond to my points against you, so this feels like you are writing me off based off my predecessor in order to provide a read without responding to my content.

I thought I had addressed this earlier. My read on you is town-to-null, which is why your slot is a much weaker scum-read on my part than it would have been without you as replacement.

ScreamingHawk, you didn't address Soben's post here. That's one of the more damning posts against you, and one of the more difficult to explain on your part. I really don't feel like you've addressed Odysseus' post completely either. I feel like you've probably addressed it as well as you can, but it still doesn't explain it other than flip-flopping.

VOTE: ScreamingHawk

Uhhhhh . . . . he did. At the very top of 229. Wasn't the most satisfactory explanation in the world, but he did definitely address it.

It bothers me quite a bit that you went from "hesitant to put SH at L-1" to "LYNCH!" over a misread.

I read #229, I just don't see what SH wrote in response to Soben's post actually addresses Soben's post. Reads to me as scum doing what they can to dance out of their inconsistencies (and doing a poor job doing it).

[treznor]

Others have asked ScreamingHawk, and I'll back it up. You're at L-1, time to claim.

[treznor]

I see your points Uphill. I just have no problem at all believing that scum would say the things that you are saying are town-tells.

Votecount 1.10:

ScreamingHawk - [6] - DemonHybrid, Odysseus, Soben, bionicchop2, redtail896, treznor
treznor - [2] - FightingShadow, ScreamingHawk
Katty Bard - [1] - el simo
el simo - [1] - Gen_Wolf
bionicchop2 - [1] - Uphill
DemonHybrid - [1] - Yonzy

Not Voting - [1] - Katty Bard

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch or 7 to no-lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2011-11-09 11:01:07)

[treznor]

I read #229, I just don't see what SH wrote in response to Soben's post actually addresses Soben's post. Reads to me as scum doing what they can to dance out of their inconsistencies (and doing a poor job doing it).

Could you explain this a bit more for me?

I don't see how his response actually addresses Soben's post (that he's replying to). It looks like scum dancing around trying to show that they are being responsive, but in the end I just don't see alot of actual explanation that ties to what Soben was asking.

[treznor]

Next post will address redtails #237. Hold up

Any this just looks like scum trying to delay a lynch vote... If we had waited 10, 15, 30 minutes, that's one thing. But it's been around 12 hours now...

[treznor]

Okay, closer to 10 hours... The point still stands.

[treznor]

ScreamingHawk, Fighting and Timeater are one slot, they share one alignment, this is undeniable. I can completely understand reading one of their actions as scummy and the other as townie but that doesn't change the fact that in your reads list you stated you had two entirely different reads on the slot at the moment, you called them scum and called them town. Not just that but you stated you agreed with DH on Time being scum due to his reasons while stating the slot is currently a town-read of yours, none of this makes any sense whatsoever.

Wait, what? ScreamingHawk is definitely a different slot than FightingShadow and Timeater. Are you trying to say they are the same alignment (but still different slots)? That's still odd as I think I'm one of the few that are saying Timeater/FS are leaning scum for me (though moving towards town the more FS posts, at least for me).

[treznor]

It's directed to ScreamingHawk about FightingShadow/Timeater.

Wow, basic reading comprehension fail. That makes alot more sense

[treznor]

Not seeing a lot of movement here.

Two questions:
1) ScreamingHawk: You are at L-1. Time to claim! Your reticence to claim makes me think even more than you are scum.
2) For those that aren't currently voting for ScreamingHawk: Can you explain why? Are you reading SH as town and thus don't want to vote for him? Are you waiting for more discussion? Are you waiting for SH to come back and claim?

[treznor]

You forgot to bold your confirm vote to make it count extra hard.

Both of you make some valid points. I just wanted to say that the line above made me laugh out loud

[treznor]

Sorry, busy weekend.

el simo

I don't have a lot to backup my read on el simo other than his playstyle seems similar to the last game, which he was town.

Ok this worries me, I was actually scum that game.

I was referring to our last game together (here in which you were definitely town (unless the mod was horribly, horribly wrong...).

[treznor]

Wait, are you in schizophrenia land? First you claim scum in our last game, when you were town. Then you say you're ready to hammer and then unvote?

[treznor]

I'm on site, but I'm doing things and I'll be back later to post. From what I've skimmed, people are waiting on reads from me, but I haven't quite yet read everything since I left for the weekend.

DH made this post 53 hours ago...

He said later, he didn't say how -much- later. Sorry, stupid post. Have nothing new to say as nothing really has changed since the last time I posted.

[treznor]

Th--ght I p-st-d B-h b-t -v-d-ntly d-dn't. Dr-nj n-w b-t 'B------h'! N- v-w-ls -ll-w-d...

[treznor]

Yaaa town! My questioning Odysseus in the Dead QT really looks foolish now. Honestly, I was getting such a scum read on you Odysseus precisely because I was getting absolutely no scumminess at all, if that makes sense. Most people slip up somewhere or another and make a post that's questionable, even as town but you really weren't. I was oddly getting a scum read on you and couldn't explain it at all. Good to see you were really town